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Why I Quit Tech and Became a Therapist

422 points by Glench 8y ago

wccrawford 8y ago
Correction: "Decided to become a therapist". >Shortly after beginning my Hakomi training, I applied and was accepted to the professional mental health counseling masters program at Lesley University in Cambridge, Massachusetts, where I'm studying and training through 2020 to get my licensure. Going through schooling is not the same as becoming something. The title implies that there was success found here, but so far it's just aspirations.
- operakadabra 8y ago
  "Success is a journey, not a destination. The doing is often more important than the outcome." -Arthur Ashe
  - sejtnjir 8y ago
    On tuesday, I aspired to be a carpenter. On wednesday, I went to my dayjob.
  - r67r67r6y5 8y ago
    If it's a quote, it must be true ....
  - selune 8y ago
    The thing is that burnout among therapists is real, everyone I know who worked in counseling came with lots of, how shall I put it?, infatuation, enchantment and everybody got severely disenchanted at some point. So until the author has worked for a couple of years in the field, he comes off as a little bit... naive. I don't mean to come off as condescending, I hope he finds happiness in his new profession.
  - panchicore3 8y ago
    David Mackler is for me the Edward Snowden of the psychotherapy, he burned out as hell of it and dedicates his youtube channel to tell it and teaches how therapy works these days "How to Be a Successful BAD THERAPIST" is great, also talks a lot about childhood traumas and other interesting topics. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVuGPT6QBEc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVuGPT6QBEc
  - ggggtez 8y ago
    But the "doing" of being a therapist is actually seeing patients! Get out of here with your motivational poster level wisdom.
  - x3n0ph3n3 8y ago
    Good for Aurthur, but that's not how the world views success, and rightfully so.
- samirm 8y ago
  >The title implies that there was success found here, but so far it's just aspirations. I don't see that. Just because the author has/had aspirations, doesn't me he hasn't already reached/achieved them partially, if not completely.
- mattkrause 8y ago
  The tail end of most of these programs usually involves practising under the supervision of an already-licensed therapist for 1000-2000 hours. If he's finishing in 2019-2020, he may already be in that phase, which is pretty close to "doing" it.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
rlue 8y ago
And from the other side of the aisle, "Why I Quit Being a Therapist": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0Fi32LbXHA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0Fi32LbXHA
- foxhop 8y ago
  Daniel Mackler is amazing. Although to be fair, his YouTube channel is basically free Therapy sessions for the masses (and himself). I subscribed a while back and watch all his videos
- Jimpulse 8y ago
  Wow thanks for the opposing perspective. Seems like even as a therapist you're still fighting the system and still only able to treat the symptoms.
  - ratling 8y ago
    I can see why they would be good at doing IT.
  - rlue 8y ago
    I imagine that OP has done his due diligence, but if it were me, I don't think I'd handle the transition very well. Like any other branch of medicine, psychiatric practice is tightly regulated, and operating outside the standards of the professional community is strictly forbidden. That means that innovation is no longer part of his job description, as that responsibility falls principally to researchers. In other words, OP has basically left his job as a developer (of software) to be a sysadmin (of humans). Not to disparage the choice, or even remotely suggest that it's the end of the road! Only to say that existential dread can await you no matter what path you choose.
    - afterburner 8y ago
      > a sysadmin (of humans) Lol, that's a terrible way of putting it. A sysadmin has a lot of power over the systems they control. A therapist is like a consultant brought in to evaluate, but with no actual power.
fb03 8y ago
I knew there would be some relation with drugs in the text. People who think psychedelic drugs (even Cannabis) are just about 'having fun' or 'getting high' are skipping past the biggest ability these compounds have: to make you change some already hardcoded aspects of your life. Someone who isn't me started working out and eating properly after having an epiphany on cannabis which prompted him to openly evaluate his relationship with food. After seeing truly how he ate, it disgusted him. This person is now 50kg slimmer and away from obesity BMI.
- thraway-burnout 8y ago
  Please congratulate that person on my behalf. Even though it may be the result of an epiphany, self-restraint is still hard to achieve and a noble goal in itself :-)
  - short_sells_poo 8y ago
    I'd like to prefix this as _anecdotal_ as it is only some speculation I've done on the matter, but here is my take on it: The brain is in the end a neural network, and like all such devices, can get stuck in various local minima that are difficult to get out of. An old habit that has been reinforced through many years can take a considerable "shock" to dislodge. All the little cognitive and behavioral biases that one accumulates through their life get in the way in very subtle forms that are entirely sub-conscious. What psychedelics like LSD, psilocybin and others can do, is remove or downregulate these internal filters for some time. To give an example: the visual cortex normally applies a filtering mechanism to what the eyes see and correct problems. It acts as a common-sense filter to remove improbable or impossible information and augment, perhaps even add some extra detail to save the conscious part from being swamped with ridiculous data. Mostly it just lets the sensory input through with little synthetic stuff. This means that the visual cortex has to have some sort of model of reality that it builds over time (with feedback from the consciousness). This filtering mechanism is one way mostly, the visual cortex modulates the input and adds information here and there, and then reinforces the internal model with feedback form the consciousness. Now, under psychedelics, one gets all the output that the visual cortex can generate together with the actual real data from the eyes. The previously subtle filter applies the full transformation described by the internal model to the sensory data. This results in wacky outlandish shapes and impossible landscapes as reality is modified fully with all the information that the visual cortex has accumulated. Quite like the bizarre images generated by artificial CNNs when ran backwards! So to arrive at my point, I posit that psychedelics can (not guaranteed of course), remove the long standing subconscious filters and biases that one has built over their life and offer the raw perspective on things. They remove all the useful illusions that the brain pulls over our eyes to get through our days. A thing that one tends to lose during a "trip" is control over the thought process, some call it ego death, a profound sensation of being able to observe one's thoughts from outside - as if unburdened by one's own insecurities and from an objective view. It isn't unpleasant at all, if anything it is liberating. It is always difficult to face one's own shortcomings, because of the importance that we place on the ego. Once that burden is removed, it becomes an experience of resignation and healing. I want to avoid ascribing religious or transcendental characteristics to the process, far from it. It's a mere result of some very pleasant time spent being free from the tyranny of the ego and the subsequent introspection.
balabaster 8y ago
Wow! Can I ever see some parallels with the inverse correlation of my own inward search for meaning and my lack of contentment with life. They say that happiness is found within, but the more time I spend looking inward, the more and more sure I become that it's not. Happiness, at least for me, is found in friendships and relationships, in human connection. The search inward may lead to many profound and philosophical insights, but so far, happiness has not been one of them.
- onemoresoop 8y ago
  Happiness is overrated too. One needs to be content and aware first of all. Friendships are great to have but most can't do without them because they're truly afraid of being with themselves(e.g alone)
  - balabaster 8y ago
    I've spent much of my adult life feeling alone, if not physically, mentally. I think this is common in careers where we're paid to spend our time thinking. It's a hazard of our profession exacerbated by who many of us are as human beings. We found ourselves in these careers precisely because of this trait, our ability to think deeply about solutions to problems - which seems to be a net side effect of our proclivity to spend our time weighed down in our own thoughts. I wouldn't knock those who fear being alone. Enduring being alone is mentally and emotionally grueling - even if you don't shy away from it. If you're not scared of it, then either you're one of the lucky few who are resilient to it or you're not giving it the gravity it's due. Either way, I'm envious of you. I have days where I feel like my only reason to live are my friends and children. Without them I wouldn't even make it through the day. On those days, I fear being alone. Not because I'd harm myself, but because I know that it's the first step on a spiral into a depression I don't want to be consumed by again. I fear it because I've been there on more than one occasion. I fear it because I know how hard it is to drag yourself out of. If you're not truly afraid of it, you've never been there.
    - drukenemo 8y ago
      I’ve moved to another country 10 years ago and had great difficulty rebuilding my social life. After years agozining about my loneliness, I had an epiphany: it was just a primitive fear (probably of survival), and once I confronted it as a non-lethal threat, it lost its power and control over me. It’s great to have good people around you, but if this fear is dominating you, it will always be there tormenting you. My personal experience showed this doesn’t have to be the case.
mettamage 8y ago
I'm so jealous he got to work with Bret Victor on Dynamicland! (in a positive sense, I suppose envious is a better word) I've met 2 types of computer science students at uni: (1) the ones that love programming and love the mechanics of it. (2) The ones that love making music or similar forms of media. The reason the second type gets into computer science is because they love media and they love it so much they're willing to go through the ordeal of learning how to program in order to create it. In my experience, I like programming, but I love the end to end process of empathizing with the user, designing the media/app and then implementing it. It is these people that I call "Bret Victor" type of people. I'm one of them. I am absolutely jealous. If anyone knows "Bret Victor" type of workplaces, let me know.
- charliepark 8y ago
  https://notion.so https://notion.so, in addition to being a really great product, is the most Victor-ian company I’ve seen. Really great thinking and product sense there.
- mpnagle 8y ago
  Coda’s another similar place: feel free to drop me a line (nagle@coda.io.)
- azeirah 8y ago
  The word you're looking for is "artist" :p
llamataboot 8y ago
I have an MSW and quit therapy (though to be fair I was mostly doing policy-level and community-level work, not individual counseling type work) to become a programmer, but occasionally I think about going back. Good read, thanks! I definitely think nearly anyone could benefit from therapy (and a lot of people could benefit from a few strong psychedelic sessions where they are willing to ask themselves what they really want to do with this one precious and fleeting lifetime) and I applaud the courage it takes to listen deeply to oneself and strike out on that path. We could for sure benefit from a lot more humans asking deeply and honestly "Does this make me deeply happy and what effects (if any) do I want my work to have on other people's lives?"
sleepysysadmin 8y ago
There is a severe workplace burnout problem in IT(especially MSPs); which when not addressed grows into bigger mental health issues and even literal sicknesses. There just isn't enough skilled IT people. The industry is immature and is bottom heavy. The top performers and seniors, are then overwhelmed with work and the business is unable to hire more senior people to reduce workload. Then the business keeps growing and eventually you get a death spiral of people quitting and making the situation worse. >I started asking myself questions like — "Even if the projects I'm doing succeeded beyond my wildest expectations, how would it affect people? IT is so inherently negative as well. In my last job 1 person and myself were the only people trying to stay positive. The other people in the office had succumb to the negativity and would even attack us for being 'mr happy'. They were literally so negative that they just attacked positivity. I had places where I would go onsite to resolve an emergency. I never caused the outage, I was there to help. I would still get death threats from clients. "The accounting files are the server, if you lost them I'm going to go to your office and kill everyone." My employer wasn't even their IT, their IT person quit upon discovered 2 drives dead on the raid 5 array and no backups.
- jcadam 8y ago
  > their IT person quit upon discovered 2 drives dead on the raid 5 array and no backups. Based on the rest of your story, he probably feared for his life...
  - sleepysysadmin 8y ago
    Wow. I never made that link before. Makes complete sense.
- ethbro 8y ago
  Part of this is IT's fault. Any competent IT org should strive to balance crisis interactions with preemptive actions. Aka the package delivery person effect: 'Why does everyone like their package carrier? Because everytime you see them they bring a gift!' If you only ever see IT when your system melts down or an upgrade goes awry, you're going to hate them. Even if they're doing a wonderful job. So, please, if you run an IT department, give your troops some time to make house calls. "Just checking back in. How's the fix working?", "Anything troubling you?", etc. If not for your org, then for their mental health.
selune 8y ago
Interesting. I quit psychology/counseling and work in tech now and the thought of my work being absolutely meaningless gives me a lot of anxiety, I hope I'll come to terms with it one day. Correction, I'm sure I'll come to terms with it but the transition is far from being smooth and takes longer than I expected.
- Insanity 8y ago
  If it's meaningless, maybe try a different industry? I develop healthcare software and consider that quite meaningful. Before that I've worked on OA repositories, another thing I find useful. I'm not sure if I'd feel the same if I was work for a bank or something though.
  - selune 8y ago
    Yes, of course, there are lots of tech businesses that I would find myself content working for. I just don't really have the luxury of choice atm: started later in life, no solid CS background, immigrant, no real talent (to be honest) etc. I'm sure it'll work out when I gain more experience. :) I was a child psychologist (specializing in development and planned to go deeper into social work) and it was/is the biggest passion of my life, so switching to tech feels weird to put it mildly. IT is fantastic, don't get me wrong, I would not go back.
- chasd00 8y ago
  i really feel for people who drive themselves crazy over their work, its impact, and their overall purpose. My poor wife struggles and suffers constantly over these things year after year. Maybe i'm just mentally handicapped in some way but i like to code and solve business problems and so i'm a consultant who codes and solves business problems. I've never thought about if my work is meaningful, it's impact whether good or bad, or worried i'm not pursuing the true purpose of my life. It just doesn't come to mind.
  - selune 8y ago
    You're not mentally handicapped, you're just in harmony with yourself which is amazing and very rare. :) I would advise your wife to try volunteering (for whatever cause she finds important) if she hasn't already. I've started volunteering at a local NGO after switching careers and it's easily my favorite time of the month, gives me lots of energy and peace of mind, wish I could do it more often.
jdlyga 8y ago
Pushing everyone towards programming isn't what we should be doing. Sure, I get a ton of satisfaction from building software, regardless if anyone uses it. But people have different goals and drives in life, and there's no problem pursuing that.
ourcat 8y ago
I agree with the ever-growing sense of increasing meaninglessness of many of the things that some of us have been working on in technology for over twenty years. It leaves you wondering : "why am I doing this?", "Is this who I want to be?". So I can totally relate. Thank you.
walmandurebu 8y ago
I love to read these kind of stories, It's hard to quit everything in life and pursue a new way of living. Not everybody has the guts to do it. I fall in this group of people that are too afraid for the unknown and sit in the job not seeing the point of it almost everyday.
- ggggtez 8y ago
  I think what you'll find if you read more of these stories is that it's not bravery that causes people to switch, it's fear. Read it again.
  - valesco 8y ago
    I concur. I switched from law to programming out of fear of doing the boring paperwork part of every project all my life, and wasting it.
dccooper 8y ago
Whereas I'm a therapist who's in tech...Goes both ways I guess.
gboudrias 8y ago
Hey I'm doing the same thing! We have little else in common though, mainly I just figured I really want to help people and tech helps in such an abstract way it doesn't feel rewarding. I do meditate though, so my own process isn't entirely devoid of spirituality. Also, being from Canada, I find it really odd that you can just dive straight into the master's degree and become a psychotherapist (I know this varies by state though). I've had to start at the bottom again, it takes 7 years here in Quebec. It's worth it just to know you're working toward you dream job, but it's pretty awesome for you that you'll be done in only 4 years!
- arandr0x 8y ago
  Where in Quebec are you located? I know a few psychologists here but nobody who actually left tech for it, it sounds like an interesting combination of skills.
  - gboudrias 8y ago
    Montreal. I'm not a therapist yet, and most people get rejected for the doctorate, but I figure worst case I'll have a bachelor's degree in psychology so with my programming experience I could look into AI companies. Most likely I'll stay in the mental health field though, as I doubt I'll find passion for anything tech again. I mostly lurk on this forum because I'm still a geek at heart :)
    - earlyriser 8y ago
      I'm on the opposite track, but same location. I was an Educational psychologist before moving to Canada/Quebec, but as my B.A. wasn't valid here, then I started a career in tech.
faramarz 8y ago
Glen, I really enjoyed reading this and found so many points of resonance with my own story. My recent trip to Thailand and practicing meditation with Buddhist monks, getting one-on-one time with them to go deep until the lesson I needed to hear presented it self, getting vulnerable with my partner and with myself.. all of that along with my profound experience at a digital-detox adult retreat 3 years ago has put me on a path that is at odds with the corporate work that I do at a bank. The interesting thing is, the quality of my work as a product designer has dramatically improved, while my curiosity to explore music, lighting and deep human engagements have given birth to a new personality I call After 5, because it's after 5 pm where I deeply explore those experimentations as i consciously observe a new alignment with my values. This has re-surfaced something important for me that I now realize could be a possible career stream. Thanks for writing about your experience and the thought process, truly.
nabnob 8y ago
I've been having the same existential crisis for a couple years now. I started working at a FAANG company right out of college, then after a bunch of personal health problems ended up taking a leave of absence that I didn't return from. I took a long break from software and started learning politics, philosophy, and history, and eventually came to the conclusion that most of the world's problems are social/political and won't be fixed by technology. And in many ways, the type of work we do directly cause harm to people. (Unfortunately, with the long gap in my career I need to build up work experience before switching to anything else) How can I continue to work at a corporation that directly causes wealth inequality? Sure, I might personally enjoy working on math and software related problems. But why is my own intellectual curiosity more important than whether someone else gets to eat? I don't want to just donate to charities, I want to end systemic problems that lead to charities needing to exist in the first place.
- eeeeeeeeeeeee 8y ago
  Just curious, what are you working on now? I actually went to school for history, but I'm self-taught in tech. Thankfully, I never had to work at any dishonest or unethical companies (I stayed out of the startup world), but it still feels like most of the Bay Area companies are not really improving society much, and only a very small section of the population benefits, and they benefit heavily.
- lm28469 8y ago
  > most of the world's problems are social/political and won't be fixed by technology. One might argue that technology not only won't fix our issues but, used as it is today, is the cause of a lot of them.
  - nabnob 8y ago
    I agree with you, but I didn't particularly feel like getting into a debate over this topic at work :)
- silveroriole 8y ago
  I agree. The interesting, high-paying jobs in tech all seem to be centred around funnelling money from one place to another for profit, or manipulating people for profit. Most of the available work just seems to do harm. Working for public/charity companies doesn’t lead to satisfaction either, since all you see is an overworked, underpaid, too-junior workforce and an inferior, outdated product which you can do little about. On top of this, the accepted career progression for many programmers seems to be that you become a manager and don’t even get to solve the fun problems yourself - now you’re doing harm and not even enjoying doing it! But hey, at least we get paid a lot...
baselined 8y ago
I realized quickly in undergrad I could not program. This prompted the change to psych and eventually a MS in Counseling Psych. Today I am licensed with a small practice and work full-time in public education. Even though I have so much more to learn, moving towards a humanistic approach has had such a positive impact with clients and myself. Being able to sit back and be with a feeling, no matter how uncomfortable, challenges me to think about what is really the problem. This is beneficial in schools because it is the same way with students and faculty because the surface emotion is only an indicator something is wrong. I think my curiosity to understand the human condition is what led me to study and practice. At the same time, involving tech into my practice is necessary to help indicate progress for clients in addition to how it can replace me when out of session.
- srednalfden 8y ago
  When you say you could not program - can you expand on How that manifested for you personally?
glastra 8y ago
I hope I'm wrong here, but I fear that the author is, in a way, just moving the goalpost. A dissatisfaction with one's work that manifests as some sort of "what I do doesn't have meaning" or "what I do doesn't help anyone" is usually just an "I don't do anything relevant in my spare time" that is looked at through the wrong lens. In a capitalist society, one should not rely on the same activity for both sustenance and psychological well-being or fulfilment. As many have pointed out before me, here and elsewhere, any hobby or similar activity stops being enjoyable once it becomes your job, i.e. once you pay your bills with it. Instead of trying to stretch our daily jobs to fit two different goals, I believe we should, in fact, shrink our jobs so that they leave enough space for different activities that try to tackle the lack of meaning or passion in our lives: volunteering, cooking, making of art or just simply being there for our loved ones. In other words, instead of the "equate life worth to career, find out life has no meaning, change career, equate life worth to new career" cycle, try the "equate life worth to... well, life itself" for once.
duopixel 8y ago
Congrats on the change in careers, Glen. My own journey follows a very similar arc. For a rational person it's incredibly lonely: the spiritual community often sees the rational mind as a hindrance into more subtle realms, and the rational community sees the spiritual one as full of fluff and fantasy. It's difficult to have a foot on each side. We must understand that one does not invalidate the other, they belong to different realms of being. An inner truth (i.e. everything happens for a reason) does not invalidate an outer truth (i.e. everything that happens is random). Being able to hold this paradox is an important developmental milestone. Another duality is the relationship between mind and body, and for mental people bodywork is crucial to make emotional breakthroughs, but in my experience most people dedicated to this don't understand where you're coming from. Very little can be accomplished if the rational mind is the master at all times, but at the same time it's guarding an emotional dam that should be drained with caution. Therapists who understand the tech industry and the rational mind are desperately needed, most people who get into it are naturally empathetic and operate from the heart, which is wonderful for therapy, but they can't relate at all with the territory you're traversing when you're going through transformation. The maze that you describe is completely foreign to them, and even worse: very few people have navigated it successfully, it remains largely unexplored and uncharted, so it requires infinite patience and lots of trial and error.
docker_up 8y ago
There was another HN-posted article from a therapist on why he quit being a therapist. Found it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18418022 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18418022 The grass is always greener, as they say. I suspect that the OP will realize that it's not the job that is causing this, but OP himself.
deleted 8y ago
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agumonkey 8y ago
I feel a lot like the author. Computers used to hold promises. But both because understanding of society complexity and aging I have a lot less value in them. At first I thought, maybe I just need to make people use of computers happier, but the average person doesn't care, they mostly fear computers and don't want to learn but mostly have a vaguely workable tool to fill taxes or get mail. While I'm at it, take a step back and see how much negativity is around computers... privacy, encryption, it's insane. Nowadays I'm much more interested in setting repair fablabs and planting trees to make both landscape and people happier in simpler ways. My interests in computing have shifted a bit, I mostly care about very broad abstractions (say graph orderings and commutations or partial evaluation).
ben7799 8y ago
Maybe too many people are trying to find all their meaning in life through their work. It's not a recipe for success for most people, I think the media plays it up a bit too much. They're only covering the success stories in terms of people who are single minded and who make their work everything. The author of the article doesn't mention any relationships or other interests in life, no passion for anything but work. Maybe that wasn't the case but you can't tell from the article. Lots of people do something in the arts, music, physical fitness, etc.. on the side along with family & relationships or faith/religion to find meaning. If you're happy from that aspect work becomes just something you do to pay the bills. It doesn't mean you're not passionate about work but the other things can make up for times when work isn't so great.
- Glench 8y ago
  This is a good point. Our culture places a lot of emphasis on work. And I think there's something important there — that if we're going to spend most of our time doing something (work), it should be something we enjoy, find meaningful, and helps others. But if we lose perspective and forget the other things in life we'll surely become unhappy. Since leaving tech my life has also become more balanced in other areas of life such as relationships and physical health, which I didn't mention in the article. Thanks for pointing that out!
- filozof900 8y ago
  I see it the same way, that's a real problem. People often don't do anything apart from work, also don't feel like the belong anywhere. Corporate life make it even worse.
- slfnflctd 8y ago
  The problem with the workplace is you have a limited amount of control over it. Companies change strategy, get sold, have turnover... and sometimes even though you're sitting at the same desk, you find yourself holding a different job. As I've gotten older I've found that what type of work I'm doing matters less and less. It can be the most interesting project in the world, but if your teammates are all assholes you'll be miserable. Meanwhile, the cleaning crew has a solid working relationship with each other and are having a great time.
cafard 8y ago
I don't think he did it so much from burnout, but Larry Constantine left tech to become a therapist, then returned: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Constantine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Constantine
ggggtez 8y ago
tl;dr: burnout (+ woowoo + psychadelics) To be honest, you didn't have to read the article to know it was going to be burnout, because that's why everyone quits tech and does something completely different.
wgloucester 8y ago
At first I was hesitant to read this, as it sounded like the musings of yet another software engineer who, upon attaining career success and financial security, starts to become restless and chase vague goals like "happiness" because now they're too successful and there's nothing more for them to work towards. It's one of those problems you have to be extremely fortunate to have, and I can't relate to it at this point in my life. Actually reading to the end, though, it sounds as though what he was really seeking was more along the lines of spiritual fulfillment - and it sounds like he found it, through a series of inquiries and experiments that don't necessarily align with what society tells us we're supposed to find meaning in. Even for people not experiencing the particular problem of existential ennui plaguing the socio-economically privileged, I think this article has useful things to say about how to figure out what to do with your life - especially if financial security is a non-issue, whether because it's virtually guaranteed or because it's extremely improbable no matter what path you choose.
goth2boss 8y ago
this mate psyched himself out all the way to a new career. So much irony in this.
onekorg 8y ago
I'm also on the same path, glad to see I'm not the only one. Joined a FAANG after college, the good salary allowed me to start taking up Gestalt Therapy training on the side. This is one of best decisions I've made in my life, I can better allocate the amount of fucks I give per day and live a happier life. I've been slowing overcoming many paralyzing fears. I don't plan to start working as a Therapist in the near future, but the training itself has been life changing and would highly suggest to anyone who's curious about self development.
coffeebean 8y ago
IT is bottom-heavy, and seniors are leaving because they're either giving up or retiring. More problematic is that a lot of senior level people are either out of jobs, or can't move from the job they're in because the hiring focus seems to be on the under-30 crowd.
- Radim 8y ago
  In a mature market, the two extremes eventually balance out: * Companies that hire only cheap starry-eyed love-my-latest-fad youngster crash and burn due to poor execution and short-sighted design choices. * Companies that hire only experienced devs move along a less erratic path but burn way more on payroll. You could argue the market is not mature though. Lots of turmoil all around, lots of "dumb money". In that atmosphere, "fund it & flip it & long-term be damned!" definitely favours the cheap and fast. Horror stories of shitty systems and general lack of accountability ensue… The price we pay for living in exciting times. And senior devs better be mindful of "The market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent" (or alive).
subfay 8y ago
OT: people often confuse being in tech with being an employed programmer. The key is to code but not as an employee or contractor. Then, being in tech is a joy.
kayimbo 8y ago
academic junior developer gets wank off imagineering job and gets frustrated that he sucks at it. Goes to burning man and takes acid, decides to switch careers. Double posts it to hacker news, for the upvotes? cool story bro.
- sctb 8y ago
  Please don't post unsubstantively here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
michaelbuckbee 8y ago
The worst burnout/depression I've had from software development has been putting in years of time and effort only to have the project I'd been sweating on fail/not be adopted/go under. This is across the board, from a Fortune 100 company that decided to axe a division to a well-financed startup that cratered to some of my own side projects I couldn't quite get out the door. It's just a gut punch to sit back and think: "If we'd done nothing we'd be in a better spot right now than this project that turned out to be a waste of time."
jeofken 8y ago
For years I struggled to become financially independent (as Mr Money Mustache). Years upon years of watching the clock until it hit 17:30, hating the dumb coders who made a mess for me to clean up (because I know FP, and if we had types these bugs wouldn’t be here in the first place!). A year ago, I pulled the plug, and retired. Finally, I could work on my dream project every day. I did so for 6 months, and travelled, and had fun. But the following six months were full of waking late, getting stoned (sometimes waking and baking), having a liter beer a day (Germany), being bored all day, and obviously falling into depression. Lounging around in long johns waiting for the evening so a friend would be off work and meet for dinner. Then I answered a recruiter who contacted me about a job in a big boring government office. A place with endless dumb scrum bullshit processes (wasn’t it about having less process?), suits, good bye cakes, clueless managers, and all what I earlier resented. But without that I was depressed. So now I go to my boring government job with a huge smile, and I honestly love the phony agile coach, coffee machine talk, and coding up things the stakeholder wants. Legacy code - what a joyous load to lift. No one of my coworkers know I don’t have to be there, they just know me as the smiling guy. I don’t know what to spend my salary on - I guess I can invest more maybe? I make sure to treat my friends to rounds at the bar, and concert tickets, and pay for dinner with this girl I asked out. I learned that it is good to have something to aim your bow at, and a place to go every morning, and a heavy load to carry with your mates.
- driverdan 8y ago
  A common problem with FIRE is that people don't have hobbies other than FIRE. Once they retire they don't know what to do. Get some hobbies, try new things, build something physical, volunteer with non-profits. If I could stop working today I'd never be bored. I've taken two extended periods of time off (6 months and 18 months) and both times the primary reason for going back to work was money. I had plenty of things to do.
  - jeofken 8y ago
    That might be, but it wasn’t the case for me. I play music, have some pretty cool coding projects, am self-studying science, do sports, and have good friends. When this contract is up I’ll def take some months off, maybe another half year. Would have never imagined the situation to turn out like this for me, but apparently that’s the kind of guy I am. Born a work horse, distressed with no heavy load to carry. I just wish I knew this during my working time, so that I wouldn’t had been such a resentful, selfish, prick.
morningmoon 8y ago
I applaud the author for sharing their life experience. Just sharing this may help others. I want to add that these choices aren't black and white. Tech and helping people aren't mutually exclusive things. The author could have mixed therapy with his tech experience and made websites, apps, or services that helped people with career or relationship problems. Or worked towards getting an IT job at a psychology non-profit. I know it's a simplistic example, but look at the impact a simple app like Calm had on exposing people to meditation and therapeutic techniques. It's all connected. Nutrition, relationships, rest, play, and work. There's so many opportunities to help people outside of paying a licensed therapist. One way to look at it is to go where people are spending their time: on the phone. We desperately need more wellness awareness where people are already spending their attention.
jerkstate 8y ago
I'm a tech worker but I have a network of friends who are therapists and social workers. I hope OP realizes that therapy is a slog and many of your clients won't get better. Self-care for therapists is even more important than tech workers because you hear about terrible things day in and day out, and your clients (and their families) can be downright abusive at times. Also, it is much less financially lucrative than tech work. Internship lasts at least 2 years and many positions are unpaid or paid at essentially minimum wage, and pay does not get a whole lot better until you are running a private practice for wealthy clients (which depending on your opinions you might consider less rewarding than helping needier people). So I hope the OP is realistic about how this will impact their financial and emotional trajectory in life. All that being said, the skills you learn in training are useful to any walk of life. I frequently consult with these friends about how to deal with work situations, child rearing, and they are able to give me really amazing insights and help me navigate those situations. But just be honest with yourself as you go through the process, and be thankful that you have a lucrative fallback if needed.
fhennig 8y ago
> Gradually, with Michael's help, I began to realize that my work wouldn't help people be happier in ways that felt meaningful to me. Could you elaborate on you notion of meaningful happiness?
CNJ7654 8y ago
Troubleshooting 20 year old network infrastructure is hard enough, I don't even want to think about how hard it is to troubleshoot another person's brain
tomxor 8y ago
> I started asking myself questions like — "Even if the projects I'm doing succeeded beyond my wildest expectations, how would it affect people? If you only derive meaning from end results programming is probably not for you. It's a craft that requires you to enjoy the process as much if not more than the end result. But if you want to get philosophical then the other thing about functional information, just like any technology is that you usually cannot predict the complete effect on society. If you create useful things that are at least not intentionally malicious or dangerous, then you will likely be doing a net good. ...The magnitude of this good can never accurately be predicted, however a decent heuristic is how _general_ it is - e.g if you are making something as contextually contrived as a shopping app to try and "help people keep track of what they need to buy", your net good is going to be pretty fucking low, and I know focusing on the smartphone app bubble tends to result in mindless crap like this - so if you were doing that, then fair enough I'd quit too... On the other hand - go make some contribution to a fundamentally new piece of code solving a _real_ problem and the possibilities are much greater.
ryanolsonx 8y ago
Emacs M-x doctor?
jeffrallen 8y ago
A slightly easier method to find out what you should be doing with your life is to read "What Should I Do with My Life" by Po Bronson. https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/18813/what-should-i-do-with-my-life-by-po-bronson/9780375758980/ https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/18813/what-should-i...
elliotec 8y ago
I am proud of this person for finding such deep meaning in his life. I also think it's possible that one can practice deep listening, use psychedelics responsibly, and practice methods such as the Rosen Method (or any other meditation-esque practices including yoga etc) without dedicating their life fully to them, and receive magnificent benefits - including prevention of burnout. It may be his calling, but it seems burnout is a large motivator to this decision as others have discussed. I just wanted to come here to say I do the things he does regularly (but by no means am I an expert), to a great degree of success and benefit, while keeping a software job I love and not becoming a therapist. I have no signs of burnout and I actually attribute that in large part to discovering similar "clues" as discussed in the article, early on.
dnprock 8y ago
I find that in Western cultures, people suffer from over-thinking (maybe over-banging). They get out of balance at some point. I recommend checking out Yin Yang philosophy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang It's about soft/hard, negative/positive. Reality is often grey instead of black and white. Contradictions are everywhere. Sometimes, you take things seriously. Sometimes, you let them go.
norman101 8y ago
This guy sounds like he needs a therapist.
lotusko 8y ago
Read the comments, do not know what to say, too much similarity, too many possibilities, this is also a cognitive science process

422 points by Glench 8y ago

Correction: "Decided to become a therapist". >Shortly after beginning my Hakomi training, I applied and was accepted to the professional mental health counseling masters program at Lesley University in Cambridge, Massachusetts, where I'm studying and training through 2020 to get my licensure. Going through schooling is not the same as becoming something. The title implies that there was success found here, but so far it's just aspirations.

operakadabra 8y ago
"Success is a journey, not a destination. The doing is often more important than the outcome." -Arthur Ashe
- sejtnjir 8y ago
  On tuesday, I aspired to be a carpenter. On wednesday, I went to my dayjob.
- r67r67r6y5 8y ago
  If it's a quote, it must be true ....
- selune 8y ago
  The thing is that burnout among therapists is real, everyone I know who worked in counseling came with lots of, how shall I put it?, infatuation, enchantment and everybody got severely disenchanted at some point. So until the author has worked for a couple of years in the field, he comes off as a little bit... naive. I don't mean to come off as condescending, I hope he finds happiness in his new profession.
- panchicore3 8y ago
  David Mackler is for me the Edward Snowden of the psychotherapy, he burned out as hell of it and dedicates his youtube channel to tell it and teaches how therapy works these days "How to Be a Successful BAD THERAPIST" is great, also talks a lot about childhood traumas and other interesting topics. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVuGPT6QBEc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVuGPT6QBEc
- ggggtez 8y ago
  But the "doing" of being a therapist is actually seeing patients! Get out of here with your motivational poster level wisdom.
- x3n0ph3n3 8y ago
  Good for Aurthur, but that's not how the world views success, and rightfully so.
samirm 8y ago
>The title implies that there was success found here, but so far it's just aspirations. I don't see that. Just because the author has/had aspirations, doesn't me he hasn't already reached/achieved them partially, if not completely.
mattkrause 8y ago
The tail end of most of these programs usually involves practising under the supervision of an already-licensed therapist for 1000-2000 hours. If he's finishing in 2019-2020, he may already be in that phase, which is pretty close to "doing" it.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

rlue 8y ago

And from the other side of the aisle, "Why I Quit Being a Therapist": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0Fi32LbXHA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0Fi32LbXHA

foxhop 8y ago
Daniel Mackler is amazing. Although to be fair, his YouTube channel is basically free Therapy sessions for the masses (and himself). I subscribed a while back and watch all his videos
Jimpulse 8y ago
Wow thanks for the opposing perspective. Seems like even as a therapist you're still fighting the system and still only able to treat the symptoms.
- ratling 8y ago
  I can see why they would be good at doing IT.
- rlue 8y ago
  I imagine that OP has done his due diligence, but if it were me, I don't think I'd handle the transition very well. Like any other branch of medicine, psychiatric practice is tightly regulated, and operating outside the standards of the professional community is strictly forbidden. That means that innovation is no longer part of his job description, as that responsibility falls principally to researchers. In other words, OP has basically left his job as a developer (of software) to be a sysadmin (of humans). Not to disparage the choice, or even remotely suggest that it's the end of the road! Only to say that existential dread can await you no matter what path you choose.
  - afterburner 8y ago
    > a sysadmin (of humans) Lol, that's a terrible way of putting it. A sysadmin has a lot of power over the systems they control. A therapist is like a consultant brought in to evaluate, but with no actual power.

fb03 8y ago

I knew there would be some relation with drugs in the text. People who think psychedelic drugs (even Cannabis) are just about 'having fun' or 'getting high' are skipping past the biggest ability these compounds have: to make you change some already hardcoded aspects of your life. Someone who isn't me started working out and eating properly after having an epiphany on cannabis which prompted him to openly evaluate his relationship with food. After seeing truly how he ate, it disgusted him. This person is now 50kg slimmer and away from obesity BMI.

thraway-burnout 8y ago
Please congratulate that person on my behalf. Even though it may be the result of an epiphany, self-restraint is still hard to achieve and a noble goal in itself :-)
- short_sells_poo 8y ago
  I'd like to prefix this as _anecdotal_ as it is only some speculation I've done on the matter, but here is my take on it: The brain is in the end a neural network, and like all such devices, can get stuck in various local minima that are difficult to get out of. An old habit that has been reinforced through many years can take a considerable "shock" to dislodge. All the little cognitive and behavioral biases that one accumulates through their life get in the way in very subtle forms that are entirely sub-conscious. What psychedelics like LSD, psilocybin and others can do, is remove or downregulate these internal filters for some time. To give an example: the visual cortex normally applies a filtering mechanism to what the eyes see and correct problems. It acts as a common-sense filter to remove improbable or impossible information and augment, perhaps even add some extra detail to save the conscious part from being swamped with ridiculous data. Mostly it just lets the sensory input through with little synthetic stuff. This means that the visual cortex has to have some sort of model of reality that it builds over time (with feedback from the consciousness). This filtering mechanism is one way mostly, the visual cortex modulates the input and adds information here and there, and then reinforces the internal model with feedback form the consciousness. Now, under psychedelics, one gets all the output that the visual cortex can generate together with the actual real data from the eyes. The previously subtle filter applies the full transformation described by the internal model to the sensory data. This results in wacky outlandish shapes and impossible landscapes as reality is modified fully with all the information that the visual cortex has accumulated. Quite like the bizarre images generated by artificial CNNs when ran backwards! So to arrive at my point, I posit that psychedelics can (not guaranteed of course), remove the long standing subconscious filters and biases that one has built over their life and offer the raw perspective on things. They remove all the useful illusions that the brain pulls over our eyes to get through our days. A thing that one tends to lose during a "trip" is control over the thought process, some call it ego death, a profound sensation of being able to observe one's thoughts from outside - as if unburdened by one's own insecurities and from an objective view. It isn't unpleasant at all, if anything it is liberating. It is always difficult to face one's own shortcomings, because of the importance that we place on the ego. Once that burden is removed, it becomes an experience of resignation and healing. I want to avoid ascribing religious or transcendental characteristics to the process, far from it. It's a mere result of some very pleasant time spent being free from the tyranny of the ego and the subsequent introspection.

balabaster 8y ago

Wow! Can I ever see some parallels with the inverse correlation of my own inward search for meaning and my lack of contentment with life. They say that happiness is found within, but the more time I spend looking inward, the more and more sure I become that it's not. Happiness, at least for me, is found in friendships and relationships, in human connection. The search inward may lead to many profound and philosophical insights, but so far, happiness has not been one of them.

onemoresoop 8y ago
Happiness is overrated too. One needs to be content and aware first of all. Friendships are great to have but most can't do without them because they're truly afraid of being with themselves(e.g alone)
- balabaster 8y ago
  I've spent much of my adult life feeling alone, if not physically, mentally. I think this is common in careers where we're paid to spend our time thinking. It's a hazard of our profession exacerbated by who many of us are as human beings. We found ourselves in these careers precisely because of this trait, our ability to think deeply about solutions to problems - which seems to be a net side effect of our proclivity to spend our time weighed down in our own thoughts. I wouldn't knock those who fear being alone. Enduring being alone is mentally and emotionally grueling - even if you don't shy away from it. If you're not scared of it, then either you're one of the lucky few who are resilient to it or you're not giving it the gravity it's due. Either way, I'm envious of you. I have days where I feel like my only reason to live are my friends and children. Without them I wouldn't even make it through the day. On those days, I fear being alone. Not because I'd harm myself, but because I know that it's the first step on a spiral into a depression I don't want to be consumed by again. I fear it because I've been there on more than one occasion. I fear it because I know how hard it is to drag yourself out of. If you're not truly afraid of it, you've never been there.
  - drukenemo 8y ago
    I’ve moved to another country 10 years ago and had great difficulty rebuilding my social life. After years agozining about my loneliness, I had an epiphany: it was just a primitive fear (probably of survival), and once I confronted it as a non-lethal threat, it lost its power and control over me. It’s great to have good people around you, but if this fear is dominating you, it will always be there tormenting you. My personal experience showed this doesn’t have to be the case.

mettamage 8y ago

I'm so jealous he got to work with Bret Victor on Dynamicland! (in a positive sense, I suppose envious is a better word) I've met 2 types of computer science students at uni: (1) the ones that love programming and love the mechanics of it. (2) The ones that love making music or similar forms of media. The reason the second type gets into computer science is because they love media and they love it so much they're willing to go through the ordeal of learning how to program in order to create it. In my experience, I like programming, but I love the end to end process of empathizing with the user, designing the media/app and then implementing it. It is these people that I call "Bret Victor" type of people. I'm one of them. I am absolutely jealous. If anyone knows "Bret Victor" type of workplaces, let me know.

charliepark 8y ago
https://notion.so https://notion.so, in addition to being a really great product, is the most Victor-ian company I’ve seen. Really great thinking and product sense there.
mpnagle 8y ago
Coda’s another similar place: feel free to drop me a line (nagle@coda.io.)
azeirah 8y ago
The word you're looking for is "artist" :p

llamataboot 8y ago

I have an MSW and quit therapy (though to be fair I was mostly doing policy-level and community-level work, not individual counseling type work) to become a programmer, but occasionally I think about going back. Good read, thanks! I definitely think nearly anyone could benefit from therapy (and a lot of people could benefit from a few strong psychedelic sessions where they are willing to ask themselves what they really want to do with this one precious and fleeting lifetime) and I applaud the courage it takes to listen deeply to oneself and strike out on that path. We could for sure benefit from a lot more humans asking deeply and honestly "Does this make me deeply happy and what effects (if any) do I want my work to have on other people's lives?"

sleepysysadmin 8y ago

There is a severe workplace burnout problem in IT(especially MSPs); which when not addressed grows into bigger mental health issues and even literal sicknesses. There just isn't enough skilled IT people. The industry is immature and is bottom heavy. The top performers and seniors, are then overwhelmed with work and the business is unable to hire more senior people to reduce workload. Then the business keeps growing and eventually you get a death spiral of people quitting and making the situation worse. >I started asking myself questions like — "Even if the projects I'm doing succeeded beyond my wildest expectations, how would it affect people? IT is so inherently negative as well. In my last job 1 person and myself were the only people trying to stay positive. The other people in the office had succumb to the negativity and would even attack us for being 'mr happy'. They were literally so negative that they just attacked positivity. I had places where I would go onsite to resolve an emergency. I never caused the outage, I was there to help. I would still get death threats from clients. "The accounting files are the server, if you lost them I'm going to go to your office and kill everyone." My employer wasn't even their IT, their IT person quit upon discovered 2 drives dead on the raid 5 array and no backups.

jcadam 8y ago
> their IT person quit upon discovered 2 drives dead on the raid 5 array and no backups. Based on the rest of your story, he probably feared for his life...
- sleepysysadmin 8y ago
  Wow. I never made that link before. Makes complete sense.
ethbro 8y ago
Part of this is IT's fault. Any competent IT org should strive to balance crisis interactions with preemptive actions. Aka the package delivery person effect: 'Why does everyone like their package carrier? Because everytime you see them they bring a gift!' If you only ever see IT when your system melts down or an upgrade goes awry, you're going to hate them. Even if they're doing a wonderful job. So, please, if you run an IT department, give your troops some time to make house calls. "Just checking back in. How's the fix working?", "Anything troubling you?", etc. If not for your org, then for their mental health.

selune 8y ago

Interesting. I quit psychology/counseling and work in tech now and the thought of my work being absolutely meaningless gives me a lot of anxiety, I hope I'll come to terms with it one day. Correction, I'm sure I'll come to terms with it but the transition is far from being smooth and takes longer than I expected.

Insanity 8y ago
If it's meaningless, maybe try a different industry? I develop healthcare software and consider that quite meaningful. Before that I've worked on OA repositories, another thing I find useful. I'm not sure if I'd feel the same if I was work for a bank or something though.
- selune 8y ago
  Yes, of course, there are lots of tech businesses that I would find myself content working for. I just don't really have the luxury of choice atm: started later in life, no solid CS background, immigrant, no real talent (to be honest) etc. I'm sure it'll work out when I gain more experience. :) I was a child psychologist (specializing in development and planned to go deeper into social work) and it was/is the biggest passion of my life, so switching to tech feels weird to put it mildly. IT is fantastic, don't get me wrong, I would not go back.
chasd00 8y ago
i really feel for people who drive themselves crazy over their work, its impact, and their overall purpose. My poor wife struggles and suffers constantly over these things year after year. Maybe i'm just mentally handicapped in some way but i like to code and solve business problems and so i'm a consultant who codes and solves business problems. I've never thought about if my work is meaningful, it's impact whether good or bad, or worried i'm not pursuing the true purpose of my life. It just doesn't come to mind.
- selune 8y ago
  You're not mentally handicapped, you're just in harmony with yourself which is amazing and very rare. :) I would advise your wife to try volunteering (for whatever cause she finds important) if she hasn't already. I've started volunteering at a local NGO after switching careers and it's easily my favorite time of the month, gives me lots of energy and peace of mind, wish I could do it more often.

jdlyga 8y ago

Pushing everyone towards programming isn't what we should be doing. Sure, I get a ton of satisfaction from building software, regardless if anyone uses it. But people have different goals and drives in life, and there's no problem pursuing that.

ourcat 8y ago

I agree with the ever-growing sense of increasing meaninglessness of many of the things that some of us have been working on in technology for over twenty years. It leaves you wondering : "why am I doing this?", "Is this who I want to be?". So I can totally relate. Thank you.

walmandurebu 8y ago

I love to read these kind of stories, It's hard to quit everything in life and pursue a new way of living. Not everybody has the guts to do it. I fall in this group of people that are too afraid for the unknown and sit in the job not seeing the point of it almost everyday.

ggggtez 8y ago
I think what you'll find if you read more of these stories is that it's not bravery that causes people to switch, it's fear. Read it again.
- valesco 8y ago
  I concur. I switched from law to programming out of fear of doing the boring paperwork part of every project all my life, and wasting it.

dccooper 8y ago

Whereas I'm a therapist who's in tech...Goes both ways I guess.

gboudrias 8y ago

Hey I'm doing the same thing! We have little else in common though, mainly I just figured I really want to help people and tech helps in such an abstract way it doesn't feel rewarding. I do meditate though, so my own process isn't entirely devoid of spirituality. Also, being from Canada, I find it really odd that you can just dive straight into the master's degree and become a psychotherapist (I know this varies by state though). I've had to start at the bottom again, it takes 7 years here in Quebec. It's worth it just to know you're working toward you dream job, but it's pretty awesome for you that you'll be done in only 4 years!

arandr0x 8y ago
Where in Quebec are you located? I know a few psychologists here but nobody who actually left tech for it, it sounds like an interesting combination of skills.
- gboudrias 8y ago
  Montreal. I'm not a therapist yet, and most people get rejected for the doctorate, but I figure worst case I'll have a bachelor's degree in psychology so with my programming experience I could look into AI companies. Most likely I'll stay in the mental health field though, as I doubt I'll find passion for anything tech again. I mostly lurk on this forum because I'm still a geek at heart :)
  - earlyriser 8y ago
    I'm on the opposite track, but same location. I was an Educational psychologist before moving to Canada/Quebec, but as my B.A. wasn't valid here, then I started a career in tech.

faramarz 8y ago

Glen, I really enjoyed reading this and found so many points of resonance with my own story. My recent trip to Thailand and practicing meditation with Buddhist monks, getting one-on-one time with them to go deep until the lesson I needed to hear presented it self, getting vulnerable with my partner and with myself.. all of that along with my profound experience at a digital-detox adult retreat 3 years ago has put me on a path that is at odds with the corporate work that I do at a bank. The interesting thing is, the quality of my work as a product designer has dramatically improved, while my curiosity to explore music, lighting and deep human engagements have given birth to a new personality I call After 5, because it's after 5 pm where I deeply explore those experimentations as i consciously observe a new alignment with my values. This has re-surfaced something important for me that I now realize could be a possible career stream. Thanks for writing about your experience and the thought process, truly.

nabnob 8y ago

I've been having the same existential crisis for a couple years now. I started working at a FAANG company right out of college, then after a bunch of personal health problems ended up taking a leave of absence that I didn't return from. I took a long break from software and started learning politics, philosophy, and history, and eventually came to the conclusion that most of the world's problems are social/political and won't be fixed by technology. And in many ways, the type of work we do directly cause harm to people. (Unfortunately, with the long gap in my career I need to build up work experience before switching to anything else) How can I continue to work at a corporation that directly causes wealth inequality? Sure, I might personally enjoy working on math and software related problems. But why is my own intellectual curiosity more important than whether someone else gets to eat? I don't want to just donate to charities, I want to end systemic problems that lead to charities needing to exist in the first place.

eeeeeeeeeeeee 8y ago
Just curious, what are you working on now? I actually went to school for history, but I'm self-taught in tech. Thankfully, I never had to work at any dishonest or unethical companies (I stayed out of the startup world), but it still feels like most of the Bay Area companies are not really improving society much, and only a very small section of the population benefits, and they benefit heavily.
lm28469 8y ago
> most of the world's problems are social/political and won't be fixed by technology. One might argue that technology not only won't fix our issues but, used as it is today, is the cause of a lot of them.
- nabnob 8y ago
  I agree with you, but I didn't particularly feel like getting into a debate over this topic at work :)
silveroriole 8y ago
I agree. The interesting, high-paying jobs in tech all seem to be centred around funnelling money from one place to another for profit, or manipulating people for profit. Most of the available work just seems to do harm. Working for public/charity companies doesn’t lead to satisfaction either, since all you see is an overworked, underpaid, too-junior workforce and an inferior, outdated product which you can do little about. On top of this, the accepted career progression for many programmers seems to be that you become a manager and don’t even get to solve the fun problems yourself - now you’re doing harm and not even enjoying doing it! But hey, at least we get paid a lot...

baselined 8y ago

I realized quickly in undergrad I could not program. This prompted the change to psych and eventually a MS in Counseling Psych. Today I am licensed with a small practice and work full-time in public education. Even though I have so much more to learn, moving towards a humanistic approach has had such a positive impact with clients and myself. Being able to sit back and be with a feeling, no matter how uncomfortable, challenges me to think about what is really the problem. This is beneficial in schools because it is the same way with students and faculty because the surface emotion is only an indicator something is wrong. I think my curiosity to understand the human condition is what led me to study and practice. At the same time, involving tech into my practice is necessary to help indicate progress for clients in addition to how it can replace me when out of session.

srednalfden 8y ago
When you say you could not program - can you expand on How that manifested for you personally?

glastra 8y ago

I hope I'm wrong here, but I fear that the author is, in a way, just moving the goalpost. A dissatisfaction with one's work that manifests as some sort of "what I do doesn't have meaning" or "what I do doesn't help anyone" is usually just an "I don't do anything relevant in my spare time" that is looked at through the wrong lens. In a capitalist society, one should not rely on the same activity for both sustenance and psychological well-being or fulfilment. As many have pointed out before me, here and elsewhere, any hobby or similar activity stops being enjoyable once it becomes your job, i.e. once you pay your bills with it. Instead of trying to stretch our daily jobs to fit two different goals, I believe we should, in fact, shrink our jobs so that they leave enough space for different activities that try to tackle the lack of meaning or passion in our lives: volunteering, cooking, making of art or just simply being there for our loved ones. In other words, instead of the "equate life worth to career, find out life has no meaning, change career, equate life worth to new career" cycle, try the "equate life worth to... well, life itself" for once.

duopixel 8y ago

Congrats on the change in careers, Glen. My own journey follows a very similar arc. For a rational person it's incredibly lonely: the spiritual community often sees the rational mind as a hindrance into more subtle realms, and the rational community sees the spiritual one as full of fluff and fantasy. It's difficult to have a foot on each side. We must understand that one does not invalidate the other, they belong to different realms of being. An inner truth (i.e. everything happens for a reason) does not invalidate an outer truth (i.e. everything that happens is random). Being able to hold this paradox is an important developmental milestone. Another duality is the relationship between mind and body, and for mental people bodywork is crucial to make emotional breakthroughs, but in my experience most people dedicated to this don't understand where you're coming from. Very little can be accomplished if the rational mind is the master at all times, but at the same time it's guarding an emotional dam that should be drained with caution. Therapists who understand the tech industry and the rational mind are desperately needed, most people who get into it are naturally empathetic and operate from the heart, which is wonderful for therapy, but they can't relate at all with the territory you're traversing when you're going through transformation. The maze that you describe is completely foreign to them, and even worse: very few people have navigated it successfully, it remains largely unexplored and uncharted, so it requires infinite patience and lots of trial and error.

docker_up 8y ago

There was another HN-posted article from a therapist on why he quit being a therapist. Found it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18418022 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18418022 The grass is always greener, as they say. I suspect that the OP will realize that it's not the job that is causing this, but OP himself.

deleted 8y ago

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agumonkey 8y ago

I feel a lot like the author. Computers used to hold promises. But both because understanding of society complexity and aging I have a lot less value in them. At first I thought, maybe I just need to make people use of computers happier, but the average person doesn't care, they mostly fear computers and don't want to learn but mostly have a vaguely workable tool to fill taxes or get mail. While I'm at it, take a step back and see how much negativity is around computers... privacy, encryption, it's insane. Nowadays I'm much more interested in setting repair fablabs and planting trees to make both landscape and people happier in simpler ways. My interests in computing have shifted a bit, I mostly care about very broad abstractions (say graph orderings and commutations or partial evaluation).

ben7799 8y ago

Maybe too many people are trying to find all their meaning in life through their work. It's not a recipe for success for most people, I think the media plays it up a bit too much. They're only covering the success stories in terms of people who are single minded and who make their work everything. The author of the article doesn't mention any relationships or other interests in life, no passion for anything but work. Maybe that wasn't the case but you can't tell from the article. Lots of people do something in the arts, music, physical fitness, etc.. on the side along with family & relationships or faith/religion to find meaning. If you're happy from that aspect work becomes just something you do to pay the bills. It doesn't mean you're not passionate about work but the other things can make up for times when work isn't so great.

Glench 8y ago
This is a good point. Our culture places a lot of emphasis on work. And I think there's something important there — that if we're going to spend most of our time doing something (work), it should be something we enjoy, find meaningful, and helps others. But if we lose perspective and forget the other things in life we'll surely become unhappy. Since leaving tech my life has also become more balanced in other areas of life such as relationships and physical health, which I didn't mention in the article. Thanks for pointing that out!
filozof900 8y ago
I see it the same way, that's a real problem. People often don't do anything apart from work, also don't feel like the belong anywhere. Corporate life make it even worse.
slfnflctd 8y ago
The problem with the workplace is you have a limited amount of control over it. Companies change strategy, get sold, have turnover... and sometimes even though you're sitting at the same desk, you find yourself holding a different job. As I've gotten older I've found that what type of work I'm doing matters less and less. It can be the most interesting project in the world, but if your teammates are all assholes you'll be miserable. Meanwhile, the cleaning crew has a solid working relationship with each other and are having a great time.

cafard 8y ago

I don't think he did it so much from burnout, but Larry Constantine left tech to become a therapist, then returned: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Constantine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Constantine

ggggtez 8y ago

tl;dr: burnout (+ woowoo + psychadelics) To be honest, you didn't have to read the article to know it was going to be burnout, because that's why everyone quits tech and does something completely different.

wgloucester 8y ago

At first I was hesitant to read this, as it sounded like the musings of yet another software engineer who, upon attaining career success and financial security, starts to become restless and chase vague goals like "happiness" because now they're too successful and there's nothing more for them to work towards. It's one of those problems you have to be extremely fortunate to have, and I can't relate to it at this point in my life. Actually reading to the end, though, it sounds as though what he was really seeking was more along the lines of spiritual fulfillment - and it sounds like he found it, through a series of inquiries and experiments that don't necessarily align with what society tells us we're supposed to find meaning in. Even for people not experiencing the particular problem of existential ennui plaguing the socio-economically privileged, I think this article has useful things to say about how to figure out what to do with your life - especially if financial security is a non-issue, whether because it's virtually guaranteed or because it's extremely improbable no matter what path you choose.

goth2boss 8y ago

this mate psyched himself out all the way to a new career. So much irony in this.

onekorg 8y ago

I'm also on the same path, glad to see I'm not the only one. Joined a FAANG after college, the good salary allowed me to start taking up Gestalt Therapy training on the side. This is one of best decisions I've made in my life, I can better allocate the amount of fucks I give per day and live a happier life. I've been slowing overcoming many paralyzing fears. I don't plan to start working as a Therapist in the near future, but the training itself has been life changing and would highly suggest to anyone who's curious about self development.

coffeebean 8y ago

IT is bottom-heavy, and seniors are leaving because they're either giving up or retiring. More problematic is that a lot of senior level people are either out of jobs, or can't move from the job they're in because the hiring focus seems to be on the under-30 crowd.

Radim 8y ago
In a mature market, the two extremes eventually balance out: * Companies that hire only cheap starry-eyed love-my-latest-fad youngster crash and burn due to poor execution and short-sighted design choices. * Companies that hire only experienced devs move along a less erratic path but burn way more on payroll. You could argue the market is not mature though. Lots of turmoil all around, lots of "dumb money". In that atmosphere, "fund it & flip it & long-term be damned!" definitely favours the cheap and fast. Horror stories of shitty systems and general lack of accountability ensue… The price we pay for living in exciting times. And senior devs better be mindful of "The market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent" (or alive).

subfay 8y ago

OT: people often confuse being in tech with being an employed programmer. The key is to code but not as an employee or contractor. Then, being in tech is a joy.

kayimbo 8y ago

academic junior developer gets wank off imagineering job and gets frustrated that he sucks at it. Goes to burning man and takes acid, decides to switch careers. Double posts it to hacker news, for the upvotes? cool story bro.

sctb 8y ago
Please don't post unsubstantively here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

michaelbuckbee 8y ago

The worst burnout/depression I've had from software development has been putting in years of time and effort only to have the project I'd been sweating on fail/not be adopted/go under. This is across the board, from a Fortune 100 company that decided to axe a division to a well-financed startup that cratered to some of my own side projects I couldn't quite get out the door. It's just a gut punch to sit back and think: "If we'd done nothing we'd be in a better spot right now than this project that turned out to be a waste of time."

jeofken 8y ago

For years I struggled to become financially independent (as Mr Money Mustache). Years upon years of watching the clock until it hit 17:30, hating the dumb coders who made a mess for me to clean up (because I know FP, and if we had types these bugs wouldn’t be here in the first place!). A year ago, I pulled the plug, and retired. Finally, I could work on my dream project every day. I did so for 6 months, and travelled, and had fun. But the following six months were full of waking late, getting stoned (sometimes waking and baking), having a liter beer a day (Germany), being bored all day, and obviously falling into depression. Lounging around in long johns waiting for the evening so a friend would be off work and meet for dinner. Then I answered a recruiter who contacted me about a job in a big boring government office. A place with endless dumb scrum bullshit processes (wasn’t it about having less process?), suits, good bye cakes, clueless managers, and all what I earlier resented. But without that I was depressed. So now I go to my boring government job with a huge smile, and I honestly love the phony agile coach, coffee machine talk, and coding up things the stakeholder wants. Legacy code - what a joyous load to lift. No one of my coworkers know I don’t have to be there, they just know me as the smiling guy. I don’t know what to spend my salary on - I guess I can invest more maybe? I make sure to treat my friends to rounds at the bar, and concert tickets, and pay for dinner with this girl I asked out. I learned that it is good to have something to aim your bow at, and a place to go every morning, and a heavy load to carry with your mates.

driverdan 8y ago
A common problem with FIRE is that people don't have hobbies other than FIRE. Once they retire they don't know what to do. Get some hobbies, try new things, build something physical, volunteer with non-profits. If I could stop working today I'd never be bored. I've taken two extended periods of time off (6 months and 18 months) and both times the primary reason for going back to work was money. I had plenty of things to do.
- jeofken 8y ago
  That might be, but it wasn’t the case for me. I play music, have some pretty cool coding projects, am self-studying science, do sports, and have good friends. When this contract is up I’ll def take some months off, maybe another half year. Would have never imagined the situation to turn out like this for me, but apparently that’s the kind of guy I am. Born a work horse, distressed with no heavy load to carry. I just wish I knew this during my working time, so that I wouldn’t had been such a resentful, selfish, prick.

morningmoon 8y ago

I applaud the author for sharing their life experience. Just sharing this may help others. I want to add that these choices aren't black and white. Tech and helping people aren't mutually exclusive things. The author could have mixed therapy with his tech experience and made websites, apps, or services that helped people with career or relationship problems. Or worked towards getting an IT job at a psychology non-profit. I know it's a simplistic example, but look at the impact a simple app like Calm had on exposing people to meditation and therapeutic techniques. It's all connected. Nutrition, relationships, rest, play, and work. There's so many opportunities to help people outside of paying a licensed therapist. One way to look at it is to go where people are spending their time: on the phone. We desperately need more wellness awareness where people are already spending their attention.

jerkstate 8y ago

I'm a tech worker but I have a network of friends who are therapists and social workers. I hope OP realizes that therapy is a slog and many of your clients won't get better. Self-care for therapists is even more important than tech workers because you hear about terrible things day in and day out, and your clients (and their families) can be downright abusive at times. Also, it is much less financially lucrative than tech work. Internship lasts at least 2 years and many positions are unpaid or paid at essentially minimum wage, and pay does not get a whole lot better until you are running a private practice for wealthy clients (which depending on your opinions you might consider less rewarding than helping needier people). So I hope the OP is realistic about how this will impact their financial and emotional trajectory in life. All that being said, the skills you learn in training are useful to any walk of life. I frequently consult with these friends about how to deal with work situations, child rearing, and they are able to give me really amazing insights and help me navigate those situations. But just be honest with yourself as you go through the process, and be thankful that you have a lucrative fallback if needed.

fhennig 8y ago

> Gradually, with Michael's help, I began to realize that my work wouldn't help people be happier in ways that felt meaningful to me. Could you elaborate on you notion of meaningful happiness?

CNJ7654 8y ago

Troubleshooting 20 year old network infrastructure is hard enough, I don't even want to think about how hard it is to troubleshoot another person's brain

tomxor 8y ago

> I started asking myself questions like — "Even if the projects I'm doing succeeded beyond my wildest expectations, how would it affect people? If you only derive meaning from end results programming is probably not for you. It's a craft that requires you to enjoy the process as much if not more than the end result. But if you want to get philosophical then the other thing about functional information, just like any technology is that you usually cannot predict the complete effect on society. If you create useful things that are at least not intentionally malicious or dangerous, then you will likely be doing a net good. ...The magnitude of this good can never accurately be predicted, however a decent heuristic is how _general_ it is - e.g if you are making something as contextually contrived as a shopping app to try and "help people keep track of what they need to buy", your net good is going to be pretty fucking low, and I know focusing on the smartphone app bubble tends to result in mindless crap like this - so if you were doing that, then fair enough I'd quit too... On the other hand - go make some contribution to a fundamentally new piece of code solving a _real_ problem and the possibilities are much greater.

ryanolsonx 8y ago

Emacs M-x doctor?

jeffrallen 8y ago

A slightly easier method to find out what you should be doing with your life is to read "What Should I Do with My Life" by Po Bronson. https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/18813/what-should-i-do-with-my-life-by-po-bronson/9780375758980/ https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/18813/what-should-i...

elliotec 8y ago

I am proud of this person for finding such deep meaning in his life. I also think it's possible that one can practice deep listening, use psychedelics responsibly, and practice methods such as the Rosen Method (or any other meditation-esque practices including yoga etc) without dedicating their life fully to them, and receive magnificent benefits - including prevention of burnout. It may be his calling, but it seems burnout is a large motivator to this decision as others have discussed. I just wanted to come here to say I do the things he does regularly (but by no means am I an expert), to a great degree of success and benefit, while keeping a software job I love and not becoming a therapist. I have no signs of burnout and I actually attribute that in large part to discovering similar "clues" as discussed in the article, early on.

dnprock 8y ago

I find that in Western cultures, people suffer from over-thinking (maybe over-banging). They get out of balance at some point. I recommend checking out Yin Yang philosophy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang It's about soft/hard, negative/positive. Reality is often grey instead of black and white. Contradictions are everywhere. Sometimes, you take things seriously. Sometimes, you let them go.

norman101 8y ago

This guy sounds like he needs a therapist.

lotusko 8y ago

Read the comments, do not know what to say, too much similarity, too many possibilities, this is also a cognitive science process