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First-class air travel is in decline
- ghaff 8y agoThe thing is that modern lie flat business class seats like United/Polaris are already way more comfortable than first class was in the “old days.” There’s a big win to flying business. The incremental win of flying first given that you still need to deal with much of the same airport/commercial airline stuff is fairly limited.
- isostatic 8y agoIf it's really First Class, I'd expect private terminal (or at least entrance), straight into lounge while someone checks you in/deals with baggage etc, personalized security at your convenience, then collect from the lounge and private car to the plane at your convienience (between boarding and doors close). For Business class I'd expect the normal 'dedicated' security and checking, lounge, and 'fast' boarding, and a flat bed but that's about it.
- ghaff 8y agoThat was mostly never part of the package if you flew first class in the 70s or so though.
- saryant 8y agoThere are very few airports where this is the case. FRA is one of the only airports with the setup you’re describing.
- namdnay 8y agohttps://www.heathrowvip.com/ https://www.heathrowvip.com/
- saryant 8y agoLHR, LAX and a few others. Like I said, very few.
- Someone1234 8y agoOff-topic: That site's design could use some refinement. Took me a while to even figure out how to get to the actual content (scrolling didn't work in Firefox or Chrome, I had to click the little white arrow).
- gumby 8y agoLHR has that service (for BA at least). It was great when the kids were small, less useful now.
- cjrp 8y agoVirgin Atlantic too, although you still have to walk from security to the lounge
- tsunamifury 8y agoI thought business just became first and premium economy became business class so airlines could get around blind booking restrictions against first class. The apartment/suite class is a relatively new marketing gimmick that has nothing to do with traditional first class.
- CPLX 8y agoThat's pretty much accurate. Except that they've really devalued domestic economy in a lot of cases, with crammed together seats and so on.
- ghaff 8y agoPremium economy isn’t really business class. The seats are the same width as economy and you don’t get the extra level of service you get in business. Just some extra legroom which I appreciate. You do sometimes get meals but they’re the old standard inedible coach meals I mostly pass on. Added: Wasn’t aware of mostly recent premium economy additions on some airlines. I was taking it as a synonym for Economy Plus.
- chrisbolt 8y agoThat’s not really Premium Economy, that’s more like Economy Plus. Long haul PE seats are similar to domestic US first class seats.
- staticautomatic 8y agoThat's only true of some airlines on some planes.
- wlll 8y agoBA premium economy has wider seats with more leg room as far as I can tell, the same food as club (ie. upgraded from economy), your own arm rests and better in flight entertainment (a larger screen).
- ghaff 8y agoOk. I usually fly United. There Economy Plus is mostly just more legroom.
- namdnay 8y agoRegarding the first class floor in Dubai, it's not that empty, it's just designed to seem spacious and quiet in order to differentiate from the crowded business floor. But you need to keep in mind that the vast majority of passengers there are just platinum card holders like myself, not actually flying first class. Indeed first class is slowly dying out, I think one thing they miss is that business class has become more and more comfortable across nearly all airlines (especially Emirates on the 380). One thing they don't mention is the proliferation of private terminals/lounges for commercial flights. There's a lot of these in LHR. They have their own security checkpoints, and you're ferried by limo straight to the plane, to board first. So you get some of the advantages of flying private, but at a much lower cost (still upwards of 10k a year to get a membership I believe)
- dforrestwilson 8y agoCan I ask what you do and how to get into your line of work?
- blhack 8y agoThere are lots of sales jobs that are going to be this way.
- namdnay 8y agoNothing special, just manager in a software dev shop that works with a lot of airlines/airports. As soon as your customers are abroad there is a lot of international travel involved for the management levels of any company. Although more and more companies are cutting back and making people fly coach :/
- Aeolun 8y agoIt’s a bit crazy if you are asked to fly pretty much every month. The least they can do is make it comfortable.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- wgerard 8y agoTLDR; First-class is disappearing in favor of business-class (which is good enough for many of the previous first-class fliers) or private flights (which are becoming more affordable).
- chaseha 8y ago*First class is in decline, rather. Don't think it will ever disappear, mostly for the first reason the article says - the upgrade chance as a carrot to keep business traveler loyalty
- _ph_ 8y agoAs the article mentions, business class today often offers a comfort which was not long ago not even available in first class. Which also unfortuantely means that business class becomes less and less accessible for business travellers as companies are watching "costs" for most but upper management.
- alehul 8y agoWould highly recommend the YouTube video below [0] from Wendover, which went pretty in-depth on the economics of airline classes a while ago, and how first-class was the least profitable for the airlines. :) [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzB5xtGGsTc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzB5xtGGsTc
- k__ 8y agoInteresting. I saw a video that explained exactly the opposite. First class pays for the flight and the rest is filled up so no space goes to waste.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- ashraymalhotra 8y agoCan you please link that video? This video made a compelling point on why first class does not pay and I would love to hear the contrarian perspective.
- lymphadenopathy 8y agoThe video states that business class is the most profitable per square foot, and economy is only there to fill up the plane. First was in between
- k__ 8y agoAh, yes okay, that's right. Then I had it wrong, sorry!
- sandworm101 8y agoSo if first class is empty, and economy class is packed, who is paying for the flight? If 1/3 of the aircraft is dedicated to first class, are they paying 1/3 of the total cost? If not, aren't economy-class passengers effectively subsidizing first class? On individual flights this no doubt happens, one class being full the other empty[1]. But if first-class travel is down across the board, and prices are not adjusted accordingly, we might be in a situation where the poor are indeed subsidizing the rich. [1] Let's not kid ourselves. Economy cabins are always packed.
- ghaff 8y agoTypically the premium classes subsidize economy where people taking personal trips in particular tend to shop for the lowest price. Business class seating (many airplanes don’t have first) do tend to be full because if there’s available space passengers with status tend to be upgraded or they use miles/co-pay to upgrade.
- cr1895 8y ago1st class is different from business class
- komali2 8y agoEconomy cabins aren't always packed - there's probably about to be a raft of replies disputing this. I say with ten confidence of someone that has seen many tens of economy class flights, domestic and international, so empty I could claim a whole row and lie down to sleep.
- galangalalgol 8y agoIf it is a specific route and time, that flight is in danger of being cancelled. I have had it happen to a flight time I liked.
- csomar 8y ago> Economy cabins are always packed. They are not always packed. It depends on the route. I've been flying DXB-KUL too many times and I end up with two empty seats next to me. Free first class.
- Kiro 8y agoWait, business class and first class aren't the same? Never seen a plane with three classes.
- rrdharan 8y agoCorrect, they aren't the same, but usually only larger airplanes (747-400, A380 etc.) have a first class and only for very long haul (> 12 hour?) flights. See e.g. https://onemileatatime.com/emirates-a380-first-class-vs-business-class/ https://onemileatatime.com/emirates-a380-first-class-vs-busi...
- phonebanshee 8y agoBritish Airways have first class on the LHR/SEA route, ten and a half hours.
- darrenf 8y agoThey also used to have first class on a daily 747 between London and Moscow, around 4 hours. (I'm not sure if they still do, but they did in 2014 and 2015 because I flew it both years!). Not to mention the cash cow East Coast USA destinations or upmarket bucket and spade Caribbean flights, none of which are 12hrs.
- hocuspocus 8y agoThere are quite a few non-US airlines that have a first class on much shorter flights, like Europe to the East coast or Europe to Gulf countries. Sometimes in single decker planes. I know people who fly first class between say, Heathrow and JFK, mostly for the VIP hand-holding at both airports, that can save you a lot of time.
- komali2 8y agoNot all planes have 3 classes. Some have 6. It's all pretty arbitrary, I don't think it's actually set in stone anywhere what "class" means. Like I've been on flights with value economy, economy, economy plus, economy premium, business, first, first (premier? Or something). I've also been on flights that were "general," but if you paid 44$ extra you get a giant padded seat easily as big as or bigger than some first class seats I've seen.
- neonate 8y agohttps://outline.com/mqZDVV https://outline.com/mqZDVV
- xxpor 8y agoIf it keeps more availability open for award flights, that's fine with me!
- JabavuAdams 8y agoFlying private has always been one of my bucket list items, but the fact that flying US coast-to-coast private has the same carbon footprint as 10k Americans(!) use per year is kind of appalling. There's a certain level of FU that's hard to rationalize.
- mikeash 8y agoThere’s no way that number is correct. A 737 carries not quite 7,000 gallons of fuel, so that would imply the average American has a carbon footprint of 0.7 gallons of jet fuel per year, if you used the full capacity of a 737 to fly coast to coast. A 737 doesn’t fully drain its tanks on that trip, and smaller jets will use less.
- base698 8y agoHe said private. So 1-4 people at 400 gallons per hour.
- gok 8y agoThat makes even less sense. Even if it's one person flying for 6 hours, 2400 gallons of burned kerosene is several orders of magnitude less GHG emissions than 10,000 Americans in a year. Edit: To put numbers on it, each American emits 16,500 kg of CO2 per year, 2400 gallons of jet fuel emits 21,360 kg of CO2. So it's more like one American's emissions in a year.
- linuxasheviller 8y agoI misread this as comparing burning 2,400 gallons of kerosene versus burning 10,000 Americans and was becoming very concerned about where you are getting you data.
- 24gttghh 8y ago>So it's more like one American's emissions in a year. That still seems horrible to me.
- sbayeta 8y agoA new breed of supersonic executive jets will be even more polluting. The International Council on Clean Transportation, a think-tank, estimates that their emissions will be five to seven times greater than for standard jets. Boom, one of the startups hoping to produce these jets, has forecast that up to 2,000 such supersonic aircraft will be built by 2035. They should make these guys go carbon neutral by installing CO2 scrubbers or similar for every plane they sell. There's no reason we all have to suffer the consequences of the super rich wasteful behaviour.
- minikites 8y agoThere's a reason the super rich lobby for smaller government and fewer regulations.
- ataturk 8y agoThe reason is because we don't matter and have no voice. Everything you think you have a voice about is just pretend illusion, like voting.
- mruts 8y agoMaybe we should make your car go carbon neutral? The percent of CO2 emissions from private jets is <1% in the US. Democracy shouldn’t be two wolves and a sheep deciding whats for dinner.
- eesmith 8y agoWell, yes. We should make your (and my and our) cars go carbon neutral. After all, and using you metaphor, these are the same wolves that said the sheep's car needed a catalytic converter ... and improved safety equipment.
- minikites 8y agoThe super rich are somehow the sheep in this metaphor?
- cylinder 8y agoor just tax carbon.
- tomweingarten 8y agoExcellent! First class is an environmental disaster. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/27/climate/airplane-pollution-global-warming.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/27/climate/airplane-pollutio... http://documents.worldbank.org/curated/en/141851468168853188/pdf/WPS6471.pdf http://documents.worldbank.org/curated/en/141851468168853188...
- flavius29663 8y agoDepends, if you replace it with private jets like many climate change advocates (al gore, Leo di Caprio), it's gonna get worse.
- linuxasheviller 8y agoSemantics, but, I'm not sure either of the people you cited is advocating climate change.
- gnulinux 8y agoWhat do you mean? Al Gore made an entire movie about climate change and Leo Di Caprio talked about climate change in his Oscar acceptance speech. GP is right about that.
- jmalicki 8y agoMost people would say they're against climate change. Advocates of climate change would want to encourage climate change.
- twic 8y agoWell, Leonardo DiCaprio has a long-standing grudge against icebergs.
- cdblades 8y agoThis is a straw man. The price difference between a first class ticket and chartering a private flight is massive.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- sgjohnson 8y agoBecause First class is just overpriced business class on most airlines. I fly Business and First all the time with churned miles. First tends to offer more privacy, but if I had to, I wouldn’t mind paying cash for Business. I’d never pay cash for First.
- gumby 8y agoA data point on the luxury level of Business: I once saw the Dalai Lama while boarding a flight to India. He was seated in Business, not First.
- madcaptenor 8y agoBut would you necessarily expect the Dalai Lama to fly the most luxurious product? Seems out of line with his image.
- occamrazor 8y agoI’d expect first class only for security concerns.
- Sargos 8y agoI'd expect an airline is one of the safest place you could sit regardless of which section you're in.
- whamlastxmas 8y agoApparently not safe enough for democratic Congress members to dain to fly on.
- gumby 8y agoWell, he is a kind of king. On the other hand as image is pretty crucial to support fort the Tibetan cause, why doesn't he fly cattle car like the rest of us?
- rdl 8y agoIt's still pretty rare to have a private jet which can do transpacific flights -- particularly since it's usually to/from specific gateway cities, too. CX, SQ, JL, QR, EK F is more comfortable than a fractional-ownership G650 and costs about 10% as much.
- cletus 8y agoThis isn't news. Premium airlines (eg Qatar) have long since realized that there simply isn't sufficient demand for first-class so their newer planes don't even have a first class cabin. A big factor is the business class is the new first class. To compare to flying 20+ years ago on international long haul: - You'd be flying on a 747 - Economy would be slightly larger probably - What was then "business" is probably more akin to premium economy now with better food - Business now is better than first class then but first class then probably has more hand-holding. I mean look at a Qatar Qsuite if you want to see how far business has come. I heard a story when Concorde was shelved that the decision to retire the product was: - Planes would need to be brought up to modern standards, which was going to be expensive for 13 (originally 14) planes for a relatively small market. Seriously, the interior of those planes are small; and - Retiring Concorde would bring passengers who would otherwise fly Concorde to flying first-class, which at the time was much more profitable. Not sure how close to the truth this is but I can believe it. Obviously it's sad that we lost a capability we once had (crossing the Atlantic in <4 hours) but I wonder if BA/AF looked at this too short term. I mean sure first-class is (was) more profitable but then you're competing with every other airline when supersonic was a duopoly with a barrier to entry that was practically infinite.
- hkmurakami 8y agoWas flying Business class 20 years ago. It was somewhere between premium economy and business today. Better food, better seats than current premium economy. No lie flats iirc. Upgrades were easier though. A friend compared first class today to having a handler for the duration of the trip.
- Damogran6 8y agoI need to get to Point A...I am also 6'5" Ticket: $178 (the fare that shows up on initial search) Luggage fee: $40 Taxes and Fees: $35 Exit Row Seat which may or may not be crowded: $65 (each way) Actual Cost: $400 (Numbers SWAG'd, but that's approx what it costs to round trip from Denver to Baltimore) All I want to do is take a 2 hour flight in relative comfort and the whole thing's a bait n switch. That doesn't include the TSA Grope, the 'no fluids pass security', $12 a day far out distant remote parking, nor leaving the extra time to handle all of the extra fallderal. I can see people getting disenfranchised with the whole deal.
- organsnyder 8y agoTaking the train is a much more pleasant experience. If only our train schedules (outside of the NE corridor) didn't suck.
- gjs278 8y agoyeah if you enjoy the trip taking 7x longer sure
- glup 8y agoLooking at you, LAX. Coming from SFO, I've spent more time in traffic getting to where I need to go in LA than the actual flight.
- Damogran6 8y ago2 hour flight, gotta be at the airport 90 minutes early, airport's an hour away...pretty soon it's nearly the same amount of time to fly (not really, but it can be close sometimes)...when yo udrive you leave when you want, have no luggage restrictions, and the food's as good as you want to pay for. No in-flight drinking, though.
- camelNotation 8y agoAmtrak with kids is a dream come true on long trips. So much room, so much freedom. Our kids could literally just sit and play on the floor in front of our seats, then we could walk them to the dining car or someplace else when they wanted a change of scenery. We could play with them and entertain them in a way you can't in a car or plane. But I will never ride it again because it is so poorly managed. I needed to be at work the next morning, but they canceled our train at the last minute because of icy weather in New York (how have we not figured out how to solve for coldness yet) and I had to take an extra vacation day and leave the next morning instead. Such absolute nonsense.
- throwaway-1283 8y agoBiggest reason I can think of is that airlines have so heavily invested in business class over last 10 years or so to the point where business is nearly as good as first class has been at a fraction of the price. I've had the privilege of flying international first and business class flights several times over past few years using points (including Singapore Suites), and business class has gotten so good (lie flat reverse herringbone configuration) that there's hardly a difference between the two except a slightly bigger seat and marginally better food but 3x the price. We are living in the golden age of business class travel.
- metanoia 8y ago>We are living in the golden age of business class travel. I've had the privilege of flying 300k+ miles in Emirates over the last 2 years, mostly in business, and including a few first class segments through upgrades and I can also say that there is not much difference between business and first other than individualized service and better wine/spirits. As another poster has mentioned Premium Economy is where business was about 15-20 years ago - and the PE segment is growing significantly in the airline business as they try to capture revenue in the "comfort gap" segment between economy and business. As this segment grows, and becomes more attractive to accountants, during the next economic contraction I expect that there will be a lot of corporate travel policies that will push travelers down into PE, so let's enjoy it while we can.
- throwaway-1283 8y agoYes, by "golden age" I'm referring to the fact that "business class" has transitioned from angled lie-flat big economy seats to a mini first class.
- namdnay 8y agoI think you’ve hit the nail on the head... how long do you think we’ve got left? I guess it’s time to scramble up the corporate ladder and get out of harm’s way before the cuts start...
- ryanSrich 8y agoOne of the problems I see with first class is the overpricing. As a frequent domestic flyer (~once per month) it's almost impossible to get enough points/credit to make it affordable. I'd even personally pay for a first class upgrade on a business flight if it wasn't $300+. A delta flight from Seattle or Portland to NY is roughly $450 depending on when you book. To then charge $300 for first class seems wrong.
- glup 8y agoUnited always asks after I book a $200-$300 cross-country flight whether I want to upgrade to business class for another $800. While I admire their enthusiasm, somehow I always click "no."
- Marsymars 8y agoLast time I flew with United was to Tokyo from North America on a ~$500 round-trip flight. Inquired about first-class, and it was going to be an additional $10k.
- saryant 8y agoOn the other hand, I'd be tempted by a $300 upfare for business on a transcontinental flight. Different strokes, different markets.
- ghaff 8y agoIf it were a redeye and I could get an upgrade to lie-flat seating? Yeah, I'd pay that out of my own pocket.
- drallison 8y agoI fly first-class only when upgraded or flying on miles. It's priced itself out of the market. I fly business-class only for long hauls, especially if the airfare is covered and if I am supposed to be wide-awake a cogent the day following the trip. I usually specify contractually that flights longer than four hours are to be business-class or better. I usually prefer the premium-economy seating because it is, for me, much more comfortable than the business-class seats. A recent premium-economy transcontinental trip on an Air France A380 was, without question, the very best ever. Recent business-class seats have, for me, much in common with the rack, a mid-evil torture instrument; the design is such that there is no way to get physically comfortable since lying on my back is not an option.
- ghaff 8y agoI find lie flat seats huge wins for overnight flights. I certainly don’t dislike them for travel during the day when I’m awake but I don’t find them a huge win over traditional domestic business class/premium economy either.
- throwaway5752 8y agoPeople that would have done that decades ago have private jets now, and it's a terrible deal for the amenities offered in almost every other case.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- crushcrashcrush 8y agoAnyone who's flown business or even Premium Economy on long-haul flights knows that this isn't surprising. Even Premium Economy on Lufthansa is basically what Business Class used to be - wider, bigger seats, no shared armrests, power ports, a large TV, unlimited drinks, food served on real plates with real knives and forks. You do need to share a lav with Economy, though. You even get a kit of an eye mask and other goodies.
- chihuahua 8y agoI agree, Premium Economy on Lufthansa is very nice. There is enough room even for me at 6'5" 195cm. Any more than this would feel like a waste of money. If I want fancy food, I'll pay $100 in a restaurant, not $4000 extra for a flight.
- jashmatthews 8y agoPE on AirNZ is much better than on Lufthansa, but it’s also more expensive.
- GreaterFool 8y agoFirst class is probably all nice and cool but given how comfortable business is, I couldn't care less about any fancier service. Just give me flat bed on 13h flight so I can sleep! Bigger screen? Don't care. Fancier food? Don't care. That said, I'd love to one day fly the first class where they have a bar. Would be cool to sip cocktails and chat with fellow travelers!
- namdnay 8y agoDon’t need to fly first for that! Business on Emirates a380 will suffice :)
- kenneth 8y agoI think economic forces are party to blame for this. Business class has gotten so much cheaper and better these days that it's hard to justify paying for first. The amount of competition among airlines trying to outdo each other in the quality of business class has led to really high quality products and low fares. As a result, airlines are struggling to sell first. First cabins are regularly half empty. I've had many flights where I'm the only passenger in the first cabin, or with every guest having a separate seat for lounging and sleeping given low load factors. A decade ago, business class wasn't so good, with angle-flat or recliner seats. Even when the seats were lie-flat, they were seldom private and with direct aisle access. It wasn't a comfortable experience, so for those who could, going first made sense. This has led many airlines to reduce first class, or ditch it entirely. Singapore's first class product went from 8 seats to 4. United killed its GlobalFirst product entirely. American hardly has any routes. Malaysian is ditching first. In the western hemisphere, the only airlines with a real first class product left are Swiss, Lufthansa, and Air France. British and American also offer first, though have a poor non-competitive product. Asia and the middle east is the only place left where first class is alive and strong. (The lands of the nouveau riche)
- peterkshultz 8y agoHighly recommend "Hard Landing" by Thomas Petzinger Jr. if you're interested in this sort of subject. Unit economics for commercial aviation have changed substantially since the industry's inception.
- DIVx0 8y agoMy corp sends me out to conferences or remote offices several times a year, sometimes internationally. I can book business class if total in-air time is greater than six hours. I know first class still exists but every time I fly biz class, that cabin is the ultimate premium cabin for the flight. There might be premium economy or whatever but biz class is functionally first class for the airlines and routes I typically fly (Delta, Air France) As an aside, the new Delta One suites are _amazing_ and have totally ruined even "regular" business class lay-flat seats for me.
- MrTonyD 8y agoI spoke to a manager at a major airline - he told me that their research told them that many of their first class passengers are now renting private jets instead. Just another artifact of our "winner takes all" economic systems.
- crowdpleaser 8y agoFirst-class air travel in American is in decline because American corporations can deduct business class airfare more easily than first class airfare. IIRC, the only domestic airline in America with first-class is American Airlines. The other legacy carriers have gotten rid of it, premium economy is one of the fastest growing classes of air fare.
- Geekette 8y agoNot surprised to read this. Glad to see a post outlining why 1st class travel isn't as profitable as it seems, including how even Emirates, which sells the most 1st class seats notes that 1st and business-class constitute ~40% of its turnover - a significant but not majority portion. On a previous discussion, some were skeptical when I'd mentioned how the bulk of total airline sales and profit comes from economy, despite the higher average margin for business/1st class tickets[1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18358650 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18358650
- ratling 8y agoTBH I think the airlines kinda fucked themselves on this one. The whole meme was to make people walk through first class so that they would see what they're missing. Problem is, most people are doing domestic hops and in most cases they just aren't missing that much (I regularly do a 2 hop 40 minute then 1 hour flight that doesn't even finish drink service by the time you're ready to land). International sure and I'm sure the airlines make sure they make bank on those flights. But if I'm going to take maybe 1 international round trip every couple of years I'm probably not going to spring for first class if I can instead put that money into whatever I'm doing where I'm going.