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'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after China bans imports
- ohiovr 8y agoCould we make standardized durable containers that can simply be scrubbed, optionally polished and reused? Or just melted down and reused. Seemed to work ok for the dairy industry decades before my birth.
- grecy 8y agoThat's the amazing thing about what the developed world right now, recycling is the worst of the three things we should be doing. i.e. Reduce. Reuse. Recycle. Go to a developing country and the deposit on the beer bottle costs more than the beer in it. They are all clean and reused. Tons of countries charge money for plastic bags, or have even made them illegal. We need to catch up.
- Scoundreller 8y agoDo you think the rest of the world is ready for milk in bags? And most other non-carbonated liquids?
- seanwilson 8y agoGlass bottles?
- ynniv 8y agoUsed glass is difficult to transport and not very efficient to recycle. It's a great option as long as you re-use the container locally.
- Scoundreller 8y agoI wish Heinekin’s World bottles succeeded: https://worksthatwork.com/artefacts/world-bottles https://worksthatwork.com/artefacts/world-bottles
- wil421 8y agoWhy would you use a plastic bag for milk? Most of the milk I buy comes in paper cartons.[1] Paper should degrade much faster than a plastic bag, plastic bottle, or glass. [1]https://www.horizon.com/faqs?f%5B5%5D=field_faq_category%3A98 https://www.horizon.com/faqs?f%5B5%5D=field_faq_category%3A9...
- YUMad 8y agoThe inside of that carton is still lined with plastic tho.
- AstralStorm 8y agoPlastic foil, much more biodegradable and probably compostable to boot, unlike PET.
- wil421 8y ago24% polyethylene is still much better than a near 100% plastic bag or milk container.
- o_nate 8y agoIt depends. If your county has the right equipment to recycle those mixed paper/plastic cartons then probably so, otherwise the whole thing goes into landfill or is incinerated, and that's more material than a plastic bag. You can check online if your county has the facility (unfortunately mine doesn't).
- Scoundreller 8y agoTetra is expensive. Great for long term storage and backpack durability, but not worth the added cost (read: resources used in their manufacture) for something that must be consumed within 1-2 weeks of opening. I do buy cheap wine in tetra boxes. They have a spigot to limit air-intake, so you can take your time to finish it.
- ceejayoz 8y agoI get my milk in sturdy glass bottles, which come with a $2 deposit so you bring them back for a wash and reuse.
- FooBarWidget 8y agoIn China there actually is milk (and soybean milk) sold in bags: https://static.businessinsider.com/image/4b05d2300000000000dadafc/image.jpg https://static.businessinsider.com/image/4b05d2300000000000d...
- jbay808 8y agoIn Canada too. http://canadiandesignresource.ca/graphics/packaging/bags-of-milk/ http://canadiandesignresource.ca/graphics/packaging/bags-of-...
- jtms 8y agoWe had milk in bags in elementary school in the late eighties in northern FL. You could pop your straw in, place on the table, apply rapid downward pressure: milk cannon! Amazing design, 10/10
- 1over137 8y agoThe thing is that 'reduce' and 'reuse' are basically anti-consumerist/anti-capitalist, and thus there is formidable opposition to them. Consider a neighbourhood where everyone has a lawn to mow. The lawnmover companies want to increase (not reduce) sales. So we end up with everyone having their own mower, which sits idle 95% of the time, instead of one community mower that's shared by neighbours. It's just a little example, but it extends to everything.
- chopin 8y agoBut there's more to it to desire an own mower: 1. Everybody wants to mow at the same time 2. Community goods are often treated careless, leaving me with a dirty or non-functional mower when it is my turn 3. Who is responsible for repairs
- derekp7 8y agoNot only that, but the last lawn mower I bought (with my first house) lasted me 20 years. Whereas I'm sure a lawn mower that is used 15 times a week wouldn't last much more than a season or two. Off topic, but when I bought a new mower last year, I couldn't believe how far the technology has come. No more primer bulb, starts easily on the first pull, and a few other items I don't recall off the top of my head. Same with cars, for example if you get out of it while it is still in gear it automatically puts itself in park, and it can limp home with loss of coolant (it fires every other cylinder pushing air through the others for cooling).
- SamReidHughes 8y ago> it can limp home with loss of coolant (it fires every other cylinder pushing air through the others for cooling). Wow, this really cheered up my morning. Thanks.
- ghufran_syed 8y agoDo you have a reference for the car engine thing? I did a quick search and couldn't find anything yet. Sounds really interesting, I'd like to read more.
- duckMuppet 8y agoCatch up???... Anyone even semi educated or over 55 recalls that when they grew up, most items came in glass containers, containers that you were required to place a deposit, and return for a refund. It's only recent history, that a non conservative society which values expediency at a price of disposability and non ownership for freedom has become the norm. More than this, the recycle scam is finally being exposed, and not soon enough in my estimation.. Islands of plastic in the Pacific ocean, so that people in cities feel better about themselves while driving to and from yoga in their prius while finger wagging truck driving hillbillies in the middle of the country. Meanwhile, mayors, local reps, and governors try to export the problems somewhere else while millenials look to the federal govt and the administrative state as their saviours, so nothing really has to get done. Cue the food/milk/bag/whatever delivery as a service folks. This has cash cow written all over it..
- andygates 8y agoDeposits and glass work well for fairly local industries; the big soft drink companies have a broader geographic reach and so are motivated to make a lighter bottle to reduce shipping costs. Legislation would probably be needed to require reusables or make disposables unattractively expensive to corporate HQ. And that's before we even mention sachets. The very devil.
- grecy 8y agoTons of Developing and Undeveloped countries I've spent time in have reuseable glass coke bottles..... It can be done
- Symbiote 8y agoSoft drinks are usually bottled/canned fairly close to the consumers. For example, Coca Cola has six manufacturing sites in the UK [1]. Sometimes the concentrated syrup will be transported to the bottling company; I think this is probably the usual case for smaller markets. [1] https://www.coca-cola.co.uk/about-us/our-business https://www.coca-cola.co.uk/about-us/our-business
- bluGill 8y agoBig soft drink companies have bottling plants all over. Coke isn't made in Atlanta Georgia and shipped to Des Moines IA: it is made in Atlantic IA and Shipped to Des Moints. I don't know where else Coke has plants, but I would guess nearly every country in the world - with many having more than one. Coke delivers to the local store and goes back empty for more so this would work well if they would go back to glass bottles. It isn't that simple though, I have relatives that worked for coke back in the glass bottle days and they would never drink coke from a glass bottle - they knew first hand how hard it was to get those bottles clean again. New plastic bottles and cans are always clean.
- NeedMoreTea 8y agoWe could, but then industry might get together and form a littering organisation to reframe the problem into one of personal ethics and responsibility. Neatly making it nothing whatsoever to do with those that made the problem. Like they did in 1950-something forming Keep America Beautiful when one US state was encacting legislation to require deposit and reuse. As we can see, it worked really well. The environment was saved, waste and littering are things of the past. Some people still believe it's a grass roots organisation simply trying to improve the beauty of the country. Edit: founding members Philip Morris, Anheuser-Busch, PepsiCo, and Coca-Cola
- Scoundreller 8y agoIt will probably happen. Industry will get on board when they know they won’t have to pay back a lot of those deposits. I’d prefer a straight tax instead so it goes into general revenue instead of bribing industry.
- NeedMoreTea 8y agoThing is, unless industry are on the hook at both ends, they are incentivised to discourage, find ways around, or market against it. So I'd prefer manufacturers responsible for every last cent of running a full-scale return and reuse programme. If that makes fizzy drinks more expensive, well, I'm not sure that's a bad thing either. Externalities are what started us on the way to this mess in the first place.
- gwbas1c 8y ago> Or just melted down and reused That's called recycling Based on this article, it looks like "Or just melted down and reused" doesn't work very well.
- avip 8y agoWe’ve been doing that for thousands of years. The only tiny issue is convincing people to use it, and informing public that free market has failed as a framework for making environmental decisions.
- merpnderp 8y agoWhy would you say the free market has failed? If you're assigning blame shouldn't you be pointing at the democracy which regulates the market? You disagree with how a majority of your fellow citizens vote, so either you were simply outvoted on what is important, or you believe democracy failed.
- _jal 8y agoNot the OP, but this is straightforward: the market fails to price externalities. Costs are distorted and borne by others. You can regulate it, but if you have sufficient control to price in all externalities and then do so, you are not talking about a 'free market' anymore. And what is the role of democracy in regulating global public goods? How are you going to vote on environmental protections on other continents?
- merpnderp 8y agoJust because you add a few more rules to a free market doesn't cease to mean it is a free market. "How are you going to vote on environmental protections on other continents?" Trade negotiations? Or are you asking if invasion and war are an option, which they absolutely are not.
- mrfusion 8y agoI imagine the grocery store of twenty years from now will just have giant barrels of products and everyone brings in their own containers to fill up.
- Scoundreller 8y agoOr just bigger containers. If laundry detergent doesn’t go bad, why aren’t I buying it in 25L or 50L barrels? We buy 10year supplies of other products (the machines themselves), why not their consumables? They go up in price every year too. That or buying the concentrate and diluting it yourself with the old container. That bottle of windex (spray glass cleaner) is 95% water. Put a nice big tax on consumables, reduce the lowest rates of income tax with the revenue (or write cheques) and voila.
- 1over137 8y ago50 L is very heavy. You'd then need an automobile (which maybe in your country you already have, but if every human had one, we'd be in worse trouble.) Instead of bigger containers, reusable containers. I have a 4 L container for laundry detergent that I fill up at the store on my walk home from work, fits nicely in my backpack.
- Scoundreller 8y agoA fair point. But larger containers would be a good option for those that can. Instead, I just buy 10x 5L containers when they’re on sale. A big waste of plastic.
- AstralStorm 8y agoWouldn't be a waste if you could return the containers and the design does not change often. Barring that, plastic foil is more friendly. Buy a refill if available.
- edflsafoiewq 8y agoYou can buy powdered detergent in a cardboard box.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- mrfusion 8y agoThe pool company does this with chlorine jugs. You pay ten dollars or so for the jug. Or you can bring your own to trade in for a full one. Beer growlers are a similar concept. Maybe this just spreads to more and more products.
- vegardx 8y agoWe could start with the simple things, like reusable and standardised takeout boxes and cutlery. Add a small deposit on the return and make sure that any takeout place is required to accept returns, which they in turn can wash and reuse.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- mc32 8y agoIsn’t there a way to incinerate such rubbish such that it outputs energy (electricity) and any heavy or toxic materials are scrubbed? May be a bit more expensive but the tech exists.
- nicktelford 8y agoThere are. Someone I used to know in the waste industry referred to it as "recycling by thermal decomposition". Norway has deployed this pretty liberally, to the point that they actively import waste to fuel their plants.
- MDWolinski 8y agoI believe that Germany does this as well, I recall an article from a few years ago about Germany being a destination for a lot of waste in Europe because of their technology around that.
- abyssin 8y agoThere's a cement plant in Belgium that burns trash and filters the toxic materials. I seem to remember a figure of 99.99% of toxic materials filtered.
- FooBarWidget 8y agoWhat happens to the residual material after incineration?
- SECProto 8y agoI'm not an expert, but if you sort your inputs well, and scrub fly ash from the flue gas, you should be able to avoid most of the issues with heavy metals emissions.
- nraynaud 8y agoThat’s the only way to “recycle” a Tetra Pak.
- pmyteh 8y ago
- b_tterc_p 8y agoFully aware that it’s not a globally useful solution, but I am surprised there aren’t alternatives to China for trash dumping. Why aren’t there alternatives. I refuse to believe all other countries are so eco-minded that they wouldn’t take a dirty cash grab
- lotsofpulp 8y agoA lot of the value proposition of sending trash to China is that the containers that bring things from China go back empty, so sending them back filled with trash wasn't a huge marginal cost.
- NeedMoreTea 8y agoGoing on pieces I've read in the last few months, others are backing away from being the world's recyclers too. I recall a piece about Malaysia no longer being willing to thanks to a large increase in localised pollution, and illegal burning of non-recyclables (wrong plastic in bundle, labels, lids, etc). A fast search doesn't turn up a link.
- Scoundreller 8y agoThey might also realize they can get the same inputs by creating domestic recycling programs.
- tenaciousDaniel 8y agowhat about like a really really really deep hole
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- Cthulhu_ 8y agoI'm wondering why garbage dumps aren't more of a thing, maybe seepage over time? Or nobody wants it in their back yard? But on the other hand, the US still has huge amounts of unused land, deserts where nothing grows anyway. I could make the argument that moving it to the dump costs too much in transport, but err, it was moved halfway across the world earlier so ???. Anyway, why not separate, compact and store it safely and dig it up again once we've found out how to recycle it properly. I want to believe plastics are a valuable resource and burning it is a huge waste.
- AstralStorm 8y agoSafe storage is a major problem, esp. groundwater contamination and offgassing. This is why mines are good landfill spots - because they're already drained and protected so that they do not flood.
- cr0sh 8y ago> deserts where nothing grows anyway I live in Arizona. I've also driven many times through the Mohave desert. Stuff grows there. You'd have to be blind not to see that. There are whole ecosystems out here in our deserts. I imagine it's the same in virtually any desert. Heck, even in Black Rock City, I've seen a bug on occasion - that's one area where you could say "nothing grows" - but I bet that's false too. In regards to plastics: Most - if not all - plastics cannot be reused without molecular degradation. The plastic that results is highly inferior to "virgin plastic". Which is why the products that are made of "100% recycled plastic" are fairly - hmm, mundane? I'm not sure what the word is, just that you won't see such plastics used exclusively for most products. At best, they will be mixed with new plastic. Even then, the ratio will favor the new plastic. Maybe some day we'll be able to decompose the plastic into atoms and re-constitute them back into new plastic - but that won't be any time soon.
- chriscappuccio 8y agoSomething is wrong with the design here. Dioxins aren't a problem if covanta incinerates at a high temperature. Safe incineration to burn trash and generate power is doable. The standard is too low here, it seems.
- baybal2 8y agoFunny fact, garbage was literally the biggest US export to China until the ban.
- twentythree 8y agoThat's interesting, do you have a source for that? A quick Google search turns up aircraft, machinery, and agricultural products (and doesn't mention garbage), but I'd be curious to learn more.
- Scoundreller 8y agoIt probably is by volume. Lots of otherwise empty containers going back. Makes sense to jam them with junk when the ship has to be repatriated anyway.
- baybal2 8y ago> For more than five years, scrap and trash has consistently been the US’s biggest export https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/05/09/chinas-crackdown-on-trash-could-make-it-harder-for-u-s-cities-to-recycle/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/05/09/china... And it is likely to be more as trash is often declared as raw plastic, cellulose, aluminium billets, or "electronic components" to evade numerous bans that China been enacting over the last decade. This is also why American own material statistics by US ITC is likely a better measure (access to ITC data is paid)
- bhelkey 8y agoThat article doesn't contain the quoted line. However, it does contain the following line: >Since 2007, one of America's top exports to China has been... trash Assuming positive intent, it is possible that the article was edited in the five hours since you linked it. However, it was written in 2013 so that seems unlikely.
- baybal2 8y agoI was homed onto the link by https://qz.com/82640/china-doesnt-want-your-trash-anymore-and-that-could-spell-big-trouble-for-american-cities/ https://qz.com/82640/china-doesnt-want-your-trash-anymore-an... the quote is from there. Did not notice that it wasn't from the original article.
- sevensor 8y agoI've long maintained that plastics recycling is worse than useless -- washing all of that plastic takes loads of water, and there just aren't many uses for recycled plastic. Consider the plastics around you. How many objects are virgin plastic? How many are recycled? There's not some secret destination for recycled plastics. Clearly it's being dumped or burned, and it has been for a long time. Now we're doing it in the U.S. again, it's much harder to pretend that's not its fate.
- CydeWeys 8y agoIf the plastic is burned in a really high quality incinerator, with a great scrubber stack, it at least isn't putting out lots of pollutants, and can generate power to boot. This might be a better fate than having them end up in a landfill, though of course they are releasing CO2 when you burn them (though I don't know if that's significant at all compared to global CO2 released in manufacturing and transport).
- AstralStorm 8y agoAbout the same CO2 impact as manufacturing them. The problem is burning it clean. To do that you have to run a very hot furnace, near gasification temperatures. Otherwise, you will be releasing cracked chlorine, sulphate, partial urethane chains and other hydrocarbons into air. They're invisible but noxious and sometimes stinky. Electroscrubbers have limitations and high energy cost too.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- wang_li 8y ago>This might be a better fate than having them end up in a landfill... If you're not recycling them, why is burning them better than putting them into a landfill? Is it the fact that plastics don't biodegrade and will last in the ground for thousands of years? Isn't that good? Aren't we trying to find carbon sequestration techniques?
- sixstringtheory 8y ago
- blakesterz 8y ago"...or burning it in huge incinerators like the one in Chester, which already torches around 3,510 tons of trash, the weight equivalent of more than 17 blue whales, every day." I love that they compare it to the weight of a blue whale! "There isn’t much of a domestic market for US recyclables – materials such as steel or high-density plastics can be sold on but much of the rest holds little more value than rubbish" It's clear to me from the article, does that mean paper and cardboard as well? It seems to be mentioned that China won't take it, but is that getting burned now?
- bryanlarsen 8y agoIIRC it's the mix that's the problem. Pure newsprint has value, but it takes very little laminated paper or food contamination to make it cheaper to throw it all out than to sort it.
- Scoundreller 8y agoAnother issue is that optical scanners read the code on plastics, but the black plastic on things like to-go coffee can’t be read (they absorb the light). Small changes like “Number 5 plastics cannot be black in colour” would help without any consumer impact.
- seanwilson 8y agoI've always wondered why there couldn't be standard containers for products like jam, wine, butter etc. where the containers are designed to be easily washed and reused. Manufacturers could still create their own branded containers but would pay more somehow for doing so. Is there an obvious problem with this idea? It's nuts that if you buy e.g. 4 bottles of wine they all have different bottle designs and if you optionally go through the effort of recycling them there might be some process involved where they're sent to another country, broken down, melted and then reformed it into new bottles at best. Just wash and reuse the bottle...?
- rootusrootus 8y agoWe used to do that with soda bottles. I think some places still do.
- dTal 8y agoIt was also standard with glass milk bottles, in the UK at least.
- abrugsch 8y agoUK glass milk deliveries still exist. We have milk delivered 3 times per week. (that's the cadence of the milk company, not our choosing) and until recently within last 6 months ish) ALL quantities were delivered an 1pt returnable glass bottles. now they deliver typical 2pt and 2L PET containers which is handy for the fridge but if you order a 1pt you still get glass (and sometimes multiples if they have a supply chain issue like when they changed recently from 4pt to 2L for the same cost :/ )
- smt88 8y agoSome places have local "zero-waste" grocery stores that sell everything in reusable containers that you return when you come back to the store. For people who don't live in those places, a few online retailers like Loop are trying to fill the gap[1]. 1. https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/19/loop-to-launch-zero-waste-delivery-service-in-new-york-this-spring/ https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/19/loop-to-launch-zero-was...
- rinchik 8y agoCan we just gather all the trash into one giant ball and launch it into space? If Dyson sphere has it's place in global solutions space then giant trash ball should too.
- briffle 8y agoI've been watching a few companies that convert plastic back into oil. it sounds great, but I have no idea yet if it actually works, or is just all glossy brochure. http://renewlogy.com/renew-energy/ http://renewlogy.com/renew-energy/
- AstralStorm 8y agoIt is either energetically expensive or dirty. Reforming carelessly is what Germany did during WW2 to make synthetic rubber and oil from brown coal. The result is the Black Triangle due to sulphite pollution. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Triangle_(region) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Triangle_(region)
- joekrill 8y agoWhenever I see stories revolving around this sort of thing, I'm always reminded of the Penn & Teller: Bullshit! episode they did on recycling (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0771119/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0771119/). They argue that landfills really aren't that bad and may actually be better than recycling. Of course the entire _premise_ of that show was that you shouldn't just blindly believe everything you're told -- INCLUDING what the show itself tries to argue for. So I have no idea how valid any of their argument actually is.
- everdrive 8y agoIf I recall their entire argument was based on whether or not something financially worth it. And so they recommended recycling aluminum, because aluminum is worth so much. Whereas everything else loses money. If it were true that recycling plastic were better for the environment, but was a financial loss I'd be for it. I'm not sure this is true, but the point is that purely financial considerations miss the bigger picture here. As other HN posters have pointed out, it seems that fewer disposable plastic containers is the better path here. (really, as few as possible!)
- joekrill 8y agoThat was certainly something they talked about and focused on. But I recall that they also talked about how landfills take up such a ridiculously small amount of land, and they are so efficiently managed these days, that it's not even really an environmental issue either. I'll have to rewatch the episode, but they may have even suggested it was _better_ for the environment to throw it out, because the energy involved in recycling was actually worse. Similarly: I have a friend who recently told me they were trying to get away from using disposable paper towels and instead use cloths. Again, this episode immediately came to mind. I couldn't help but wonder if the amount of energy, detergent, etc used in washing the reusable towels was _worse_ than simply using paper towels. I don't know that there is any true way to definitively answer either of these questions. There's just SO MUCH involved, that you can go down a million rabbit holes (the manufacture of the washer uses X, the design required a team that required an office that was built inefficiently, etc). This is currently a premise on The Good Place: no matter how hard you try to be the best possible person, you can't control the entire pipeline of ramifications.
- NickM 8y agoOkay, serious question: how much carbon is sequestered in plastic if we toss it in a landfill? Given that there's a finite amount of oil left in the world, and that it gets more expensive as supplies dwindle, I almost wonder if using more disposable plastics helps the fight against climate change. Better to turn the carbon into a solid and bury it than burn it and put the CO2 in the atmosphere, right?
- dehrmann 8y agoNot a direct answer, but 4% of global oil production goes to plastics, so I'd put the ceiling slightly higher.
- jtms 8y ago4% does not seem a big enough slice of the carbon puzzle pie to really make a huge difference compared to something like fuels. seems like we should just focus on a solution that minimizes local and immediate human suffering.
- andygates 8y agoThe core problem with this is finding the land to fill. It's not as simple as any ole hole, the stuff is a low-grade contaminant that oozes nasties over decades. For the huge bulk of plastic waste that's a lot. Better by far would be local recycling instead ; this is a fine thing for a government incentive as the (arbitrary, fickle) market incentive has gone away.
- josefresco 8y agoAnother good article on the topic: China's Import Ban Broke Plastic Recycling. Here's How to Fix It https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/06/china-plastic-recycling-ban-solutions-science-environment/ https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/06/china-plastic-re...
- tmaly 8y agoI am surprised we are not building more Plasma Arc systems to process the waste. Surely this would be better than creating all this dioxin in the air. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_gasification_commercialization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_gasification_commercial...
- JTbane 8y agoI'm convinced that a tax on all plastic containers is nessecary to avoid the negative externalities of manufacturing them.
- iandanforth 8y agoThis is super exciting. One of the grand challenges I've been thinking about is tackling waste. Why is any material considered waste? The first principles approach to this problem says that landfills are mountains of energy and diverse resources waiting to be tapped. The first step though is to ignore the pervailing reclamation, recycling mentality at the macro level and begin the gruelling work of building a new ecology. We're at a point now where concerted effort into engineered (or found through directed evolution) organisms gives us the opportunity to break down and then re-integrate these dormant resources. In the future a 'recycling' plant will accept any and all waste and be the front end of a manufacturing hub that outputs both new raw materials and finished products. In between the two ends it will be biotechnology that enables the transition from waste back to usable component resources.
- wool_gather 8y ago> landfills are mountains of energy If you're talking about literally turning garbage into fuel, there's, as I understand it, very rapidly diminishing returns unfortunately. Even the apparently simple act of just burning garbage to generate electricity is complex, because you have to be concerned about what the heck is in there and what you're releasing into the air.
- CptFribble 8y agoIn principle, plasma gasification can be made to work net positive energy output, plus slag for whatever you want to use slag for. In practice, it's really expensive to set up and operate without a lot of throughput, so it doesn't happen that much. Though, I've read the US Navy is putting plasma gasifiers onto its newest generations of big ships.
- rapjr9 8y agoI asked a local waste handling company owner whether he'd be interested in plasma gasification. He told me that one plasma gasification plant would require all the trash from Vermont, plus parts of NY and NH and MA to keep it fed and economical. So that would require a lot of trucking. Still, that seems better than releasing all the toxins in the materials into the environment and means just one plant could service a large rural area. More plants would be needed in more densely populated areas. Still seems like a great solution.
- darkerside 8y ago> too difficult > impossible These words are funny to me. It's not literally "too difficult" or "impossible" for people to sort their recyclables. I think they essentially mean, we don't know how to make people do this, or we think we'll be voted out if we ask people to do it. And what it boils down to is that, it's not a socially accepted/expected practice to sort your recyclables. But, you know what? That is a completely different thing from being "too difficult" or "impossible". And by conflating those two things, we as a society are operating with blinders on. As a thought experiment, imagine everybody else was making the needed compromises (to their time, space, etc.) to properly sort recyclables. Is it still impossible for you?
- tachyonbeam 8y agoIMO, you shouldn't ask people to sort recyclable materials at home for a few reasons: 1. It's not impossible, but it's impractical. You need multiple containers all of a sudden, and these can't be fixed-size containers because not everyone consumes the same proportion of any given material. 2. People are going to sort things wrong, meaning you need to check/re-sort at the processing plant. 3. How difficult of a challenge is it to build sorting machines, anyway? Are you going to tell me self-driving cars are coming soon but we can't build machines to handle this? If it really is too hard, have regulations put in place so that some machine-readable material tag be put on all packaging. 4. I think this is a good domain for regulators to step in. Tax things that are hard to recycle, and encourage packaging that is easy to recycle or biodegradable. Keep in mind, glass containers are recyclable and also reusable, meaning you can just clean and refill them at the factory, which is more energy-efficient than melting everything. No new technology needed, just go back to selling milk, sodas, etc. in glass jugs.
- CptFribble 8y agoHonest question about glass, from someone who also wants glass everything: If we swapped back to glass containers for everything, would there be significant increase in CO2 emissions from the added shipping weight?
- 8y ago
- checkdigit15 8y agoA large part of this is the new rules on contamination that exclude a lot of material. 0.5% is China's new limit, while a average city with curbside collection could never meet that. Think about your typical recycling bin: You put in some newspaper that is prime recycling material, but then a milk jug or soda bottle that hasn't been fully emptied or rinsed gets tossed in and the paper gets soaked and is now unusable for recycling. Same with pizza boxes that have grease, stuff that gets rained on, people putting stuff in the bins that isn't recyclable in this manner (including electronic components and such [0]), and suddenly you're throwing away (or burning) a huge amount of material. "China, once the biggest single processor of recycling, said in the spring that it would no longer accept loads of recyclable items — such as plastic, glass, cardboard, and metals — that were more than 0.5 percent contaminated. Officials said they were trying to cut down on pollution from processing dirty recyclables. Philadelphia’s contamination rate is anywhere from 15 percent to 20 percent. That meant its previous contractor for recycling, Republic Services, had to find other markets for processing or begin disposing of portions of contaminated loads in other ways, such as in landfills or by incineration. As recently as the first quarter of 2012, Philadelphia was getting paid $67.35 a ton for its recyclables. By summer 2018, Republic was negotiating a new contract to process recyclables that would cost the city $170 a ton."[1] [0] "Reduce, reuse, incinerate: Why half of Philly's recyclables aren't recycled" (Feb 11, 2019) https://www.npr.org/podcasts/657780675/the-why https://www.npr.org/podcasts/657780675/the-why [1] "At least half of Philly’s recycling goes straight to an incinerator" (Jan 25 2019) https://www.philly.com/science/climate/recycling-costs-philadelphia-incinerator-waste-to-energy-plant-20190125.html https://www.philly.com/science/climate/recycling-costs-phila...
- fooblitzky 8y agoI find it difficult to imagine the USA giving up its plastic addiction, given the high levels of consumption and the convenience plastic provides. I think a reasonable approach for regulators might be to require all single-use plastic packaging to be industrially compostable (corn-derived etc). This way you still get the convenience of the packaging, no need to change habits, but the waste can all be turned back into soil without pollution.
- gwbas1c 8y agoI get compostable cups... The liquid will only be in them for a short time. But can a compostable bottle last the months needed to hold a beverage on the shelf?
- elhudy 8y ago>The conscientious citizens of Philadelphia continue to put their pizza boxes, plastic bottles, yoghurt containers and other items into recycling bins. Pizza boxes are not actually recyclable due to the amount of grease they absorb which is unable to be separated.
- Animats 8y agoNot even getting power out of burning the stuff. This from the place that once had a power plant with a huge illuminated sign "Electricity is Cheap in Chester".[1] [1] https://ruins.wordpress.com/2006/11/10/electrical-power-and-corporate-identity-pecos-delaware-generating-station/ https://ruins.wordpress.com/2006/11/10/electrical-power-and-...
- warunsl 8y agoRelevant: 99pi recently had an episode on China banning imports of recyclables - https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/national-sword/ https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/national-sword/
- skybrian 8y agoIt seems like we need better education and publicity campaigns. It should always be easy to look up the local rules. People should feel like it's more important to keep the recycling stream clean than it is to recycle at all, which is the opposite of what they do today where putting more stuff in the recycling bin is somehow thought to be better even if it doesn't follow the rules. Unfortunately, garbage companies are not necessarily very good at publicity or education. (My local company's website is badly designed and it's annoyingly difficult to even find the page with the rules.)
- londons_explore 8y agoImagine sorting waste is some amount of effort per item. You could get the homeowner to do it, or you could pay people in a factory to do it. Just like the poor economics of making your own paper, it turns out centralising all the effort works out to less effort expended overall. I therefore don't really see the appeal of the European model of having homeowners separate glass, plastic etc. It seems to simply be a way to make hundreds of mllions of people waste a few minutes each, rather than employ a few thousand full time at a lower total economic cost.