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Apple Could Be Working with Goldman Sachs on a Credit Card

104 points by sahin-boydas 8y ago

endofcapital 8y ago
Just so we're all on the same page here: the great innovative technology company, Apple Computers, famous worldwide, it appears their main initiative this year seems to be is to try and sell their own branded card to cut down on swipe fees as they pivot to services. This is our next big innovation after the touch bar. A credit card. So that the insanely high margins creep up a few more basis points as they dump massive amounts of cash into share buybacks. Ok. I'm not sure who or what is coming along next to disrupt these dinosaurs, but it feels like we are long overdue.
- Operyl 8y ago
  I seriously doubt many resources, comparatively speaking, are being thrown on this project from Apple’s side. It seems to be much heavier on the negotiation side for Apple, and most of the legwork comes from Goldman Sachs.
- turboturbo 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question You seem to assume that the payment solution that will be offered won’t differ significantly from existing credit card solutions (from a business/technical point of view)
- hnmonkey 8y ago
  How did you get that it is their main initiative for this year from this article? They have ~130,000 employees, so are you implying that a majority of 130,000 people are working on this main initiative over other things? I'll be the first to say that Apple has not innovated much, if at all, over the past few years compared to other tech companies, but this seems a little hyperbolic.
  - akiselev 8y ago
    He's implying that this if this is the best that a company with 130,000 people could come up with, it's rather disappointing.
    - glhaynes 8y ago
      There's no reason to think it's the best thing they'll do in 2019. It's February.
      - hnmonkey 8y ago
        And there's also no reason to think this is the only thing they'll do. I don't think it takes a majority of 130,000 to setup a deal like this but more than likely some people in finance and some people in legal while on the tech side people are still doing 1000 other things.
- stetrain 8y ago
  Who said it's their main initiative?
- dmitriid 8y ago
  Do not dismiss fees that easily. Epic's card processing is bigger than their entire Fortnite operation combined [1] While running Fortnite we learned a lot about the cost of running a digital store on PC. The math is quite simple: we pay around 2.5 to 3.5 percent for payment processing for major payment methods, less than 1.5 percent for CDN costs (assuming all games are updated as often as Fortnite), and between 1 and 2 percent for variable operating and customer support costs. On Apple's scale these cost are significant. + having its own card Apple can possibly scrap or significantly reduce the fees (and possibly their cut from apps/services) + provide further privacy and protection to its customers (after all, it's already one of the largest holders of financial info in the world). [1] https://www.gameinformer.com/2018/12/04/tim-sweeney-answers-questions-about-the-new-epic-games-store https://www.gameinformer.com/2018/12/04/tim-sweeney-answers-...
  - belltaco 8y ago
    >and possibly their cut from apps/services Cmon, we all know this won't happen.
bboreham 8y ago
Apple has a credit card already, in partnership with Barclaycard. https://www.apple.com/shop/browse/financing https://www.apple.com/shop/browse/financing Edit: previous discussion from the last time this was “news”: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17040266 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17040266
- heavymark 8y ago
  That is simply a partnership where instead of cash back you get apple gift cards at rewards. So it's not rather notable Apple wise, since most cards you can redeem for Apple gift cards. Last year it was announced Apple is ending that card relationship and switching to Goldman. At that time it sounded like Goldman partnership would be similar but today's rumors suggest it maybe an actual Apple Branded credit card that is fully integrated into iOS which would be amazing. But of course there are so few details that it's hard to judge, but certainly interesting none the less to see what Apple could do in the credit card space.
  - delfinom 8y ago
    What a perfect way to encourage consumers to go further into debt for items they don't need.
  - obmelvin 8y ago
    Can you expand on how that is amazing? Maybe I'm just tired, but I don't see how it's any better than existing mobile payment options just because of some partnership. I can already hold my phone up to a compatible POS device and pay with my chase card.
    - notduncansmith 8y ago
      For starters, Apple’s commitment to privacy makes me feel way better about them having my purchase data and being able to add value alongside my other personal data: potentially less opportunity for fraud, better offers, better purchase insights, etc. Maybe not “amazing”, but I can see some ways it could be quite nice compared to alternatives.
rconti 8y ago
I was thinking "oh, cool, maybe they'll find a way to break up the Visa/Mastercard duopoly and... oh, nope."
- gruglife 8y ago
  I was thinking the same thing too. I don't understand why someone else hasn't come up with a better product to get around the Visa/Mastercard network.
  - toasterlovin 8y ago
    Network effects. There are probably hundreds of thousands of credit card terminals installed in the US. The delta of potential improvement is small enough that there isn’t a huge motivation to change anything.
  - Marsymars 8y ago
    There are "better" payment networks, but they're regional, and run either by governments or nonprofit organizations. There doesn't seem to be much will in the US for banks to cooperate to form a nonprofit in order to undercut Visa/MC.
  - clintonb 8y ago
    Money. It takes a lot of money to go to all the banks and convince them to switch credit and debit cards. Before that you have to convince the merchants to accept a new card network. That takes even more money. This cost is why we saw some retailers attempt to make their own wallets. A wallet app is a bit easier to integrate for the merchants than a new card network. The downside is that consumers don’t care about wallet apps. We want our credit card rewards!
    - jessaustin 8y ago
      Presumably, a properly-implemented retailer wallet app would produce some economic surplus, which could be shared with consumers in order to convince them to participate?
momentmaker 8y ago
Curious to see how one can churn it...
TwoNineA 8y ago
I wonder when hey are going to start working with Palantir, Blackwater (or whatever the hell it's called these days), Monsanto and cigarette companies. Goldman Sachs is evil.
- JohnJamesRambo 8y ago
  Well they already work with Facebook.
- awakeasleep 8y ago
  I think you're misusing the term 'evil' which implies malice. Goldman is actually indifferent to humanity's wellbeing in their pursuit of wealth. They're no more evil than the AI in Universal Paperclips.
  - marssaxman 8y ago
    "Goldman is actually indifferent to humanity's wellbeing in their pursuit" Is that not precisely what evil is?
    - awakeasleep 8y ago
      Evil would be malicious- like if Goldman would hurt people even if it cost them money. Indifference means Goldman would help humanity if it was easier or more profitable.
duxup 8y ago
On the surface this would seem to be a way to get to the processing fees and etc that occur with any transaction when it comes to Apple's systems. Considering the amount of money going through Apple for various things, this is probabbly a cheap deal to make with a lot of upside. Amazon has their card, Costco, retailers, etc.
- gbrown 8y ago
  The fees per transaction charged by credit card companies seem crazy to me in 2019, in that they're exorbitant and bear no relationship to their actual costs. The industry really seems like it should be a candidate for anti-trust action. I have no relevant domain expertise though, so I'd be interested to hear alternative viewpoints.
  - dalyons 8y ago
    idk why you're downvoted; australia did exactly that recently - there's now a federal law capping credit card interchange fees at 0.8% maximum. The EU is now 0.3% max. Of course that means that you dont get so many fancy rewards benefits, but thats kinda silly anyway (getting ~1% back in rewards in exchange for a ~3% tax on everything) EDIT: also, it feels very discriminatory. Well off people get the fancy cards with the biggest kickbacks, poor people get shitty cards with no benefits, but everyone pays the hidden 3% tax....
    - lotsofpulp 8y ago
      As long as vendors are free to offer different pricing based on payment method, it should resolve itself. Even right now, I don’t think there’s is anything stopping vendors from offering everyone x% off by using debit cards.
      - FabHK 8y ago
        > long as vendors are free to offer different pricing based on payment method My understanding is that the merchant agreement the vendor has with the credit card company prohibits that.
kyrra 8y ago
As TechCrunch just links to WSJ in the first sentence, maybe we should link there instead?: https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-goldman-sachs-team-up-on-credit-card-paired-with-iphone-11550750400 https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-goldman-sachs-team-up-on-... Paywall bypass: https://outline.com/YsNyha https://outline.com/YsNyha
- AlphaWeaver 8y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19216292 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19216292
jccalhoun 8y ago
I hate these "could be" headlines. They could be doing anything. Apple could be working on making pigs fly. I don't think they are but they could be...
- ljcn 8y ago
  See Betteridge's law of headlines.
- miles 8y ago
  The original WSJ article is far more definitive: Apple, Goldman Sachs Team Up on Credit Card Paired With iPhone https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-goldman-sachs-team-up-on-credit-card-paired-with-iphone-11550750400 https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-goldman-sachs-team-up-on-... Apple Inc. and Goldman Sachs Group Inc. plan to start issuing this spring a joint credit card paired with new iPhone features that will help users manage their money. The card will be rolled out to employees for testing in the next few weeks and officially launch later this year, according to people familiar with the matter. The companies hope to lure cardholders by offering them extra features on Apple’s Wallet app, which will let them set spending goals, track their rewards and manage their balances, the people said.
- Gpetrium 8y ago
  Without 'could be' society would mostly be reactionary. There are huge industries associated with prediction. Some may look at a potential Goldman+Apple partnership as a market changer, value adder, among many other things. In short, different data can have different value to different stakeholders.
  - TimTheTinker 8y ago
    > Without 'could be' society would mostly be reactionary. I know you meant this in a strictly economic sense, but it strikes me that adding prediction to a reactionary society only changes what and when they react, not the fact that they're reacting in the first place.
sonnyblarney 8y ago
Should note: Apple does partnerships with entities while a new consumer behaviour is in approach, to learn from it and have the option of going 'fully monty' if/when the time arrives. Before the iPhone, Apple did a big partnership with motorola on a phone that acted like an iPod and integrated with iTunes etc... I was essentially to wet their beak in the market and learn.
- jjtheblunt 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_Rokr https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_Rokr
ddingus 8y ago
I just had a brief vision of some translucent card, chip, embedded e paper like display, maybe it mooches power from the reader to do something.
jessaustin 8y ago
If Apple had a payment system of their own built into the OS, the perennial observations that Apple are less evil than Google because they track less customer data, would ring a bit more hollow.
- FabHK 8y ago
  Well, or maybe it wouldn't, because Apple would not keep and examine and data-mine that data?
- dkonofalski 8y ago
  Not really. Google takes your data and tracks and manages it on their servers. Apple's take, on the other hand, does all machine learning and data-processing on the device itself which means that it never leaves your control. This could still be the case for the majority of that payment data. Even the current iteration of Apple Pay creates a temporary card number for banks so that they can't track user behavior across purchases.
motohagiography 8y ago
Speculative, but Apple and Goldman are the only ones who can do this because Apple's user base is not fragmented like Android device OEMs. I'd watch this story. By not having an existing card relationship, Goldman is the only one large and flexible enough to stand up new infrastructure that doesn't rely on supporting or integrating to legacy EMV protocols and infrastructure, which could allow for a closed loop between GS and Apple. Even without a closed loop, Apple has a SE in their devices they can provision unique keys to during manufacture and this mitigates the main limitation of EMV tokenization, which was how to provision and manage tokens for offline payments mode, and who holds the risk/gets compensated for it. With a closed loop, they don't need tokens, just a ledger, for which solutions exist. Who loses? G&D, Oburthur, Mastercard, etc. I'd be surprised if this didn't happen.
- incognition 8y ago
  It's not speculative, it's been reported in the WSJ now: https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-goldman-sachs-team-up-on-credit-card-paired-with-iphone-11550750400 https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-goldman-sachs-team-up-on-... What I didn't know is that Goldman offers microloans?!
tempodox 8y ago
Slow news day?
azinman2 8y ago
“And by launching a card, Apple would prove once again that, given enough time, all companies eventually become banks.” Is this true? I can think of GE, but who else? What percentage of 100+ yo companies do this?
- kingaillas 8y ago
  They might not be true banks, but lots and lots of companies become enough of a bank to issue loans or credit cards... to customers that want to buy their products. e.g. car companies, department stores, gasoline companies, etc. I had a buddy that worked for Caterpillar Finance, the credit arm of the folks that make heavy machinery like bulldozers. They issue loans to companies for purchasing their stuff, etc.
ksec 8y ago
Lots of Questions Unanswered. 1. This isn't really "news", it was reported previously ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17040266 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17040266 ) 2. This isn't the first Apple Credit Card, as noted else where, Apple had one with Barclaycard. 3. So What exactly is different between this one with Goldman and Previous one with Barclaycard. 4. This is US only. Much like Apple Pay Cash, is still not available anywhere else. 5. Why Doesn't Apple double down on Stored Value Payment Method? Where your Apple Pay hold "Cash" inside it and could be used for Apple Pay. 6. The Apple Wallet Implementation still sucks, 5 years after they announce they want to get rid of your Wallet. Nothing has Changed, nothing has been done. Those Discount / MemberShip Cards are still in my Wallet. Basically I am not entirely happy with the progress of every Apple Services. Apple Map, Apple Music, Apple Pay......
- webwielder2 8y ago
  What are you entirely happy about?
  - ksec 8y ago
    Apple Map - Outside of US, Apple Map is literally useless in Asia. It is very good in China because all mapping Data belongs to Government. It was OK last time I used it in UK, but failed in many other parts of Europe. Apple Music - It took them years to add basic thing like lyrics. Songs Selection were far inferior to Spotify on International Level. Songs are missing on a yearly License renewal basis. And when they were added back, they have a different ID so your previous play list don't include them anymore. Apple Pay - Pay Cash only in US. Many of the Points and Rewards System aren't even available when using it. They are finally figuring out Transit, but it is slow process. Apple News - Outside US? iMessages - I know many are happy with it. But the system constantly have issues with Groups where some people don't receive message. Comparatively Line, KakaoTalk, WhatsApp, Telegram, Signal, etc... None of them had any problems.
tokyodude 8y ago
Is this the point where Apple starts to demand 30% of all physical goods purchased through iOS? I mean why not? What's the justification for 30% of netflix or youtube subscriptions or digital goods in general? That same justification would seem to apply to physical items just as easily. In any case I don't know the non-credit-card based payment systems in the USA and if any of them are taking off. Here in Japan several have sprung up recently including PayPay by Softbank and they are currently charging 0% to retailers for the first 3 years and apparently 0% if the retailers signs up for their bank. To customers they are offering 20% off all purchases up to $10 a purchase (so in other words $10 of a $50 purchase) and you're allowed to collect up to $500 total over the campaign. And they give you $5 to sign up. https://paypay.ne.jp/ https://paypay.ne.jp/ Also surprising is Paidy run by DMM (a company that makes the majority of their money selling porn but has been branching out like crazy) https://paidy.com/ https://paidy.com/ It does make me wonder how credit card companies can possibly keep their lock. I'm guessing they'll try to get everyone else banned? IIRC PayPay works via OR code so no need to go through Apple Pay (NFC) or similar and just as fast or faster. Potentially you could even use it without an app.
- debt 8y ago
  "hat's the justification for 30% of netflix or youtube subscriptions or digital goods in general? " I believe they've been able to negotiate that down to 15%.
- twblalock 8y ago
  > It does make me wonder how credit card companies can possibly keep their lock. I'm guessing they'll try to get everyone else banned? They offer perks. For example, I use cash-back credit cards for nearly everything, including with Apple Pay. It's like everything I buy is slightly discounted. The travel cards are also really popular. The perks offered by the non-credit payment systems are not as good and usually temporary. The non-credit based systems are popular in countries where credit card use is less prevalent. Asian countries were largely cash-based until now, so it makes sense that electronic "cash" is the next step.
  - techslave 8y ago
throwaway-1283 8y ago
I have low expectations that this will be very revolutionary. Sounds like a standard no fee 2% cash back card. The only thing I can see is maybe the card is more deeply integrated into your iPhone or Watch than a typical card added to Wallet and a custom app to pay your bill.
nkkollaw 8y ago
Apple cannot get computers right anymore, they're clever to try to diversify. If they can create a credit card that steals 30% of the revenue from the company that actually created the product like they do with their App Store, they're set.
thefounder 8y ago
One more thing: a MasterCard with x% cashback in partnership with Goldman Sachs. This will change the way you pay! Let's all hope this won't happen otherwise expect a lot of other similar "vertical" services designed to milk existing Apple fans/customers.

104 points by sahin-boydas 8y ago

Just so we're all on the same page here: the great innovative technology company, Apple Computers, famous worldwide, it appears their main initiative this year seems to be is to try and sell their own branded card to cut down on swipe fees as they pivot to services. This is our next big innovation after the touch bar. A credit card. So that the insanely high margins creep up a few more basis points as they dump massive amounts of cash into share buybacks. Ok. I'm not sure who or what is coming along next to disrupt these dinosaurs, but it feels like we are long overdue.

Operyl 8y ago
I seriously doubt many resources, comparatively speaking, are being thrown on this project from Apple’s side. It seems to be much heavier on the negotiation side for Apple, and most of the legwork comes from Goldman Sachs.
turboturbo 8y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question You seem to assume that the payment solution that will be offered won’t differ significantly from existing credit card solutions (from a business/technical point of view)
hnmonkey 8y ago
How did you get that it is their main initiative for this year from this article? They have ~130,000 employees, so are you implying that a majority of 130,000 people are working on this main initiative over other things? I'll be the first to say that Apple has not innovated much, if at all, over the past few years compared to other tech companies, but this seems a little hyperbolic.
- akiselev 8y ago
  He's implying that this if this is the best that a company with 130,000 people could come up with, it's rather disappointing.
  - glhaynes 8y ago
    There's no reason to think it's the best thing they'll do in 2019. It's February.
    - hnmonkey 8y ago
      And there's also no reason to think this is the only thing they'll do. I don't think it takes a majority of 130,000 to setup a deal like this but more than likely some people in finance and some people in legal while on the tech side people are still doing 1000 other things.
stetrain 8y ago
Who said it's their main initiative?
dmitriid 8y ago
Do not dismiss fees that easily. Epic's card processing is bigger than their entire Fortnite operation combined [1] While running Fortnite we learned a lot about the cost of running a digital store on PC. The math is quite simple: we pay around 2.5 to 3.5 percent for payment processing for major payment methods, less than 1.5 percent for CDN costs (assuming all games are updated as often as Fortnite), and between 1 and 2 percent for variable operating and customer support costs. On Apple's scale these cost are significant. + having its own card Apple can possibly scrap or significantly reduce the fees (and possibly their cut from apps/services) + provide further privacy and protection to its customers (after all, it's already one of the largest holders of financial info in the world). [1] https://www.gameinformer.com/2018/12/04/tim-sweeney-answers-questions-about-the-new-epic-games-store https://www.gameinformer.com/2018/12/04/tim-sweeney-answers-...
- belltaco 8y ago
  >and possibly their cut from apps/services Cmon, we all know this won't happen.

bboreham 8y ago

Apple has a credit card already, in partnership with Barclaycard. https://www.apple.com/shop/browse/financing https://www.apple.com/shop/browse/financing Edit: previous discussion from the last time this was “news”: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17040266 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17040266

heavymark 8y ago
That is simply a partnership where instead of cash back you get apple gift cards at rewards. So it's not rather notable Apple wise, since most cards you can redeem for Apple gift cards. Last year it was announced Apple is ending that card relationship and switching to Goldman. At that time it sounded like Goldman partnership would be similar but today's rumors suggest it maybe an actual Apple Branded credit card that is fully integrated into iOS which would be amazing. But of course there are so few details that it's hard to judge, but certainly interesting none the less to see what Apple could do in the credit card space.
- delfinom 8y ago
  What a perfect way to encourage consumers to go further into debt for items they don't need.
- obmelvin 8y ago
  Can you expand on how that is amazing? Maybe I'm just tired, but I don't see how it's any better than existing mobile payment options just because of some partnership. I can already hold my phone up to a compatible POS device and pay with my chase card.
  - notduncansmith 8y ago
    For starters, Apple’s commitment to privacy makes me feel way better about them having my purchase data and being able to add value alongside my other personal data: potentially less opportunity for fraud, better offers, better purchase insights, etc. Maybe not “amazing”, but I can see some ways it could be quite nice compared to alternatives.

rconti 8y ago

I was thinking "oh, cool, maybe they'll find a way to break up the Visa/Mastercard duopoly and... oh, nope."

gruglife 8y ago
I was thinking the same thing too. I don't understand why someone else hasn't come up with a better product to get around the Visa/Mastercard network.
- toasterlovin 8y ago
  Network effects. There are probably hundreds of thousands of credit card terminals installed in the US. The delta of potential improvement is small enough that there isn’t a huge motivation to change anything.
- Marsymars 8y ago
  There are "better" payment networks, but they're regional, and run either by governments or nonprofit organizations. There doesn't seem to be much will in the US for banks to cooperate to form a nonprofit in order to undercut Visa/MC.
- clintonb 8y ago
  Money. It takes a lot of money to go to all the banks and convince them to switch credit and debit cards. Before that you have to convince the merchants to accept a new card network. That takes even more money. This cost is why we saw some retailers attempt to make their own wallets. A wallet app is a bit easier to integrate for the merchants than a new card network. The downside is that consumers don’t care about wallet apps. We want our credit card rewards!
  - jessaustin 8y ago
    Presumably, a properly-implemented retailer wallet app would produce some economic surplus, which could be shared with consumers in order to convince them to participate?

momentmaker 8y ago

Curious to see how one can churn it...

TwoNineA 8y ago

I wonder when hey are going to start working with Palantir, Blackwater (or whatever the hell it's called these days), Monsanto and cigarette companies. Goldman Sachs is evil.

JohnJamesRambo 8y ago
Well they already work with Facebook.
awakeasleep 8y ago
I think you're misusing the term 'evil' which implies malice. Goldman is actually indifferent to humanity's wellbeing in their pursuit of wealth. They're no more evil than the AI in Universal Paperclips.
- marssaxman 8y ago
  "Goldman is actually indifferent to humanity's wellbeing in their pursuit" Is that not precisely what evil is?
  - awakeasleep 8y ago
    Evil would be malicious- like if Goldman would hurt people even if it cost them money. Indifference means Goldman would help humanity if it was easier or more profitable.

duxup 8y ago

On the surface this would seem to be a way to get to the processing fees and etc that occur with any transaction when it comes to Apple's systems. Considering the amount of money going through Apple for various things, this is probabbly a cheap deal to make with a lot of upside. Amazon has their card, Costco, retailers, etc.

gbrown 8y ago
The fees per transaction charged by credit card companies seem crazy to me in 2019, in that they're exorbitant and bear no relationship to their actual costs. The industry really seems like it should be a candidate for anti-trust action. I have no relevant domain expertise though, so I'd be interested to hear alternative viewpoints.
- dalyons 8y ago
  idk why you're downvoted; australia did exactly that recently - there's now a federal law capping credit card interchange fees at 0.8% maximum. The EU is now 0.3% max. Of course that means that you dont get so many fancy rewards benefits, but thats kinda silly anyway (getting ~1% back in rewards in exchange for a ~3% tax on everything) EDIT: also, it feels very discriminatory. Well off people get the fancy cards with the biggest kickbacks, poor people get shitty cards with no benefits, but everyone pays the hidden 3% tax....
  - lotsofpulp 8y ago
    As long as vendors are free to offer different pricing based on payment method, it should resolve itself. Even right now, I don’t think there’s is anything stopping vendors from offering everyone x% off by using debit cards.
    - FabHK 8y ago
      > long as vendors are free to offer different pricing based on payment method My understanding is that the merchant agreement the vendor has with the credit card company prohibits that.

kyrra 8y ago

As TechCrunch just links to WSJ in the first sentence, maybe we should link there instead?: https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-goldman-sachs-team-up-on-credit-card-paired-with-iphone-11550750400 https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-goldman-sachs-team-up-on-... Paywall bypass: https://outline.com/YsNyha https://outline.com/YsNyha

AlphaWeaver 8y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19216292 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19216292

jccalhoun 8y ago

I hate these "could be" headlines. They could be doing anything. Apple could be working on making pigs fly. I don't think they are but they could be...

ljcn 8y ago
See Betteridge's law of headlines.
miles 8y ago
The original WSJ article is far more definitive: Apple, Goldman Sachs Team Up on Credit Card Paired With iPhone https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-goldman-sachs-team-up-on-credit-card-paired-with-iphone-11550750400 https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-goldman-sachs-team-up-on-... Apple Inc. and Goldman Sachs Group Inc. plan to start issuing this spring a joint credit card paired with new iPhone features that will help users manage their money. The card will be rolled out to employees for testing in the next few weeks and officially launch later this year, according to people familiar with the matter. The companies hope to lure cardholders by offering them extra features on Apple’s Wallet app, which will let them set spending goals, track their rewards and manage their balances, the people said.
Gpetrium 8y ago
Without 'could be' society would mostly be reactionary. There are huge industries associated with prediction. Some may look at a potential Goldman+Apple partnership as a market changer, value adder, among many other things. In short, different data can have different value to different stakeholders.
- TimTheTinker 8y ago
  > Without 'could be' society would mostly be reactionary. I know you meant this in a strictly economic sense, but it strikes me that adding prediction to a reactionary society only changes what and when they react, not the fact that they're reacting in the first place.

sonnyblarney 8y ago

Should note: Apple does partnerships with entities while a new consumer behaviour is in approach, to learn from it and have the option of going 'fully monty' if/when the time arrives. Before the iPhone, Apple did a big partnership with motorola on a phone that acted like an iPod and integrated with iTunes etc... I was essentially to wet their beak in the market and learn.

jjtheblunt 8y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_Rokr https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_Rokr

ddingus 8y ago

I just had a brief vision of some translucent card, chip, embedded e paper like display, maybe it mooches power from the reader to do something.

jessaustin 8y ago

If Apple had a payment system of their own built into the OS, the perennial observations that Apple are less evil than Google because they track less customer data, would ring a bit more hollow.

FabHK 8y ago
Well, or maybe it wouldn't, because Apple would not keep and examine and data-mine that data?
dkonofalski 8y ago
Not really. Google takes your data and tracks and manages it on their servers. Apple's take, on the other hand, does all machine learning and data-processing on the device itself which means that it never leaves your control. This could still be the case for the majority of that payment data. Even the current iteration of Apple Pay creates a temporary card number for banks so that they can't track user behavior across purchases.

motohagiography 8y ago

Speculative, but Apple and Goldman are the only ones who can do this because Apple's user base is not fragmented like Android device OEMs. I'd watch this story. By not having an existing card relationship, Goldman is the only one large and flexible enough to stand up new infrastructure that doesn't rely on supporting or integrating to legacy EMV protocols and infrastructure, which could allow for a closed loop between GS and Apple. Even without a closed loop, Apple has a SE in their devices they can provision unique keys to during manufacture and this mitigates the main limitation of EMV tokenization, which was how to provision and manage tokens for offline payments mode, and who holds the risk/gets compensated for it. With a closed loop, they don't need tokens, just a ledger, for which solutions exist. Who loses? G&D, Oburthur, Mastercard, etc. I'd be surprised if this didn't happen.

incognition 8y ago
It's not speculative, it's been reported in the WSJ now: https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-goldman-sachs-team-up-on-credit-card-paired-with-iphone-11550750400 https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-goldman-sachs-team-up-on-... What I didn't know is that Goldman offers microloans?!

tempodox 8y ago

Slow news day?

azinman2 8y ago

“And by launching a card, Apple would prove once again that, given enough time, all companies eventually become banks.” Is this true? I can think of GE, but who else? What percentage of 100+ yo companies do this?

kingaillas 8y ago
They might not be true banks, but lots and lots of companies become enough of a bank to issue loans or credit cards... to customers that want to buy their products. e.g. car companies, department stores, gasoline companies, etc. I had a buddy that worked for Caterpillar Finance, the credit arm of the folks that make heavy machinery like bulldozers. They issue loans to companies for purchasing their stuff, etc.

ksec 8y ago

Lots of Questions Unanswered. 1. This isn't really "news", it was reported previously ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17040266 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17040266 ) 2. This isn't the first Apple Credit Card, as noted else where, Apple had one with Barclaycard. 3. So What exactly is different between this one with Goldman and Previous one with Barclaycard. 4. This is US only. Much like Apple Pay Cash, is still not available anywhere else. 5. Why Doesn't Apple double down on Stored Value Payment Method? Where your Apple Pay hold "Cash" inside it and could be used for Apple Pay. 6. The Apple Wallet Implementation still sucks, 5 years after they announce they want to get rid of your Wallet. Nothing has Changed, nothing has been done. Those Discount / MemberShip Cards are still in my Wallet. Basically I am not entirely happy with the progress of every Apple Services. Apple Map, Apple Music, Apple Pay......

webwielder2 8y ago
What are you entirely happy about?
- ksec 8y ago
  Apple Map - Outside of US, Apple Map is literally useless in Asia. It is very good in China because all mapping Data belongs to Government. It was OK last time I used it in UK, but failed in many other parts of Europe. Apple Music - It took them years to add basic thing like lyrics. Songs Selection were far inferior to Spotify on International Level. Songs are missing on a yearly License renewal basis. And when they were added back, they have a different ID so your previous play list don't include them anymore. Apple Pay - Pay Cash only in US. Many of the Points and Rewards System aren't even available when using it. They are finally figuring out Transit, but it is slow process. Apple News - Outside US? iMessages - I know many are happy with it. But the system constantly have issues with Groups where some people don't receive message. Comparatively Line, KakaoTalk, WhatsApp, Telegram, Signal, etc... None of them had any problems.

tokyodude 8y ago

Is this the point where Apple starts to demand 30% of all physical goods purchased through iOS? I mean why not? What's the justification for 30% of netflix or youtube subscriptions or digital goods in general? That same justification would seem to apply to physical items just as easily. In any case I don't know the non-credit-card based payment systems in the USA and if any of them are taking off. Here in Japan several have sprung up recently including PayPay by Softbank and they are currently charging 0% to retailers for the first 3 years and apparently 0% if the retailers signs up for their bank. To customers they are offering 20% off all purchases up to $10 a purchase (so in other words $10 of a $50 purchase) and you're allowed to collect up to $500 total over the campaign. And they give you $5 to sign up. https://paypay.ne.jp/ https://paypay.ne.jp/ Also surprising is Paidy run by DMM (a company that makes the majority of their money selling porn but has been branching out like crazy) https://paidy.com/ https://paidy.com/ It does make me wonder how credit card companies can possibly keep their lock. I'm guessing they'll try to get everyone else banned? IIRC PayPay works via OR code so no need to go through Apple Pay (NFC) or similar and just as fast or faster. Potentially you could even use it without an app.

debt 8y ago
"hat's the justification for 30% of netflix or youtube subscriptions or digital goods in general? " I believe they've been able to negotiate that down to 15%.
twblalock 8y ago
> It does make me wonder how credit card companies can possibly keep their lock. I'm guessing they'll try to get everyone else banned? They offer perks. For example, I use cash-back credit cards for nearly everything, including with Apple Pay. It's like everything I buy is slightly discounted. The travel cards are also really popular. The perks offered by the non-credit payment systems are not as good and usually temporary. The non-credit based systems are popular in countries where credit card use is less prevalent. Asian countries were largely cash-based until now, so it makes sense that electronic "cash" is the next step.
- techslave 8y ago

throwaway-1283 8y ago

I have low expectations that this will be very revolutionary. Sounds like a standard no fee 2% cash back card. The only thing I can see is maybe the card is more deeply integrated into your iPhone or Watch than a typical card added to Wallet and a custom app to pay your bill.

nkkollaw 8y ago

Apple cannot get computers right anymore, they're clever to try to diversify. If they can create a credit card that steals 30% of the revenue from the company that actually created the product like they do with their App Store, they're set.

thefounder 8y ago

One more thing: a MasterCard with x% cashback in partnership with Goldman Sachs. This will change the way you pay! Let's all hope this won't happen otherwise expect a lot of other similar "vertical" services designed to milk existing Apple fans/customers.