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Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

439 points by pasiaj 8y ago

gpm 8y ago
What does this mean procedurally? Is this a veto? A statement that is likely to effect an upcoming vote?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- r3bl 8y ago
  We'd need either 13 countries or any number of countries that represents 35% of the EU population to oppose this law. Last time, it was 8 countries representing 27% that opposed it. A handy voting calculator[0] gives us about 23.88% of the population using the countries listed here. This is (was?) a less-likely scenario to stop it. One final attempt will be when all the MEPs get a chance to vote on it. [0] https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/council-eu/voting-system/voting-calculator/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/council-eu/voting-system/...
  - folbec 8y ago
    If the vote is before brexit it's 23.88% after brexit it's 27.42%.
    - Zenst 8y ago
      You raise a very poignant point, should votes that are borderline, that the UK MEP's have voted recently be reviewed?
      - noir_lord 8y ago
        Only if the vote is 51.89% to 48.11% on an overly broad decision made against the backdrop of lies, finance illegality and interference from external actors. I'm totally not bitter though honestly. If the worst comes to the worst I'll just marry my partner (she'll still be an EU national after March) and take my skills (and taxes) abroad.
      - avar 8y ago
        No, just like votes that happened just before new EU members joined in the past weren't revisited. You're either in or you're out. Britain's still in, and thus still gets to vote.
- Someone 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_on_Copyright_in_the_Digital_Single_Market#Legislative_process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_on_Copyright_in_the_...: ”At this point, the text will be reviewed by the European Parliament Committee on Legal Affairs, and then presented to the full European Parliament for a vote. Should the vote succeed, then each of the EU's member states have up to 24 months to introduce laws within their own countries to support the Directive.” So, this is a statement “we believe the European Parliament should vote against this proposal”.
  - DelightOne 8y ago
    > introduce laws within their own countries to support the Directive. Why so complicated? It seems a bad idea to have 28 different laws which generally say the same thing but with possibly small differences so it gets a minefield. No wonder EU is a difficult market. Who possibly thought that's a good idea?
    - riffraff 8y ago
      each country has a different legal system, trying to make a single legislation is _really_ hard and generally not worth it. Some countries never ratify the directives either. That's why GDPR (which is a regulation, not a directive) was such a big deal, but it came years after there was a data protection directive, allowing the systems to harmonize.
      - Someone 8y ago
        Also, directives typically describe goals, not the way to reach them. That gives individual countries some freedom. For example, Directive 2015/720 requires member states to reduce single-use plastic bag use by 50% by 2017 and 80% by 2019, but doesn’t tell anything about how to do that. Denmark taxes companies giving away bags, Ireland taxes every bag sold, the Netherlands made it illegal to give out free bags (with exceptions), Serbia (not EU, but aspiring to become an EU country) taxes manufacturers and importers of plastic bags, etc (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_lightweight_plastic_bags https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_lightweight_pla...) And yes, there likely are opportunities to game this. If you buy a can of beer or a single-use bottle of soda in Germany, for example, you pay a deposit that you get back when you return the empty vessel. Often, you can buy the same vessel in Belgium, where the deposit is lower, or the Netherlands, where deposits only exist for bottles of half a liter or more.
- blibble 8y ago
  almost all EU policy areas in the council are now done using Qualified Majority Voting > 55% of member states vote in favour - in practice this means 16 out of 28 > the proposal is supported by member states representing at least 65% of the total EU population more details: https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/council-eu/voting-system/qualified-majority/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/council-eu/voting-system/... removing national vetos is the core idea behind the EU (replacing intergovernmentalism with supranationalism)
citilife 8y ago
The issue I see with the EU, is that it's essentially centralizing all the "countries" into "states". Where by, each of the states will simply answer to the two countries with the most power. Namely Germany, followed by France. Personally, I think it's sad. It's as if we're watching the destruction of all the national identities. Only to be centralized by powers who are only interested in their own national identity. This is similar to the struggle the U.S. faced at the start. You cannot have a centralized government making laws without invasively deciding everything. A federation of the EU made sense. Shared currency, shared military, etc. But by trying to manage the economy (which copyright is an extension of), they are essentially going down the path of ever increasing centralization. With that, countries like the U.K., who have a strong national identity, can and should leave - if they want to be an independent nation.
- Faelian 8y ago
  Well, I would argue that not having a centralised fiscality is the biggest EU problem at the moment. Every country try to lower the tax for big companies to attract them, and now we have a situation where the GAFAM pay ridiculous taxes, and the citizen pay a bigger share of the pie.
- raverbashing 8y ago
  > It's as if we're watching the destruction of all the national identities. Apart from all its faults and goals, if there's one thing the EU (the institution) is less likely to touch is national identities (Merkel "wir shaffen das" nonetheless), but usually protects it, especially in the form of national products Oh and the "strong national identity" of the UK comes across often more as a lack of willing to modernize and adapt as just wanting to keep a national identity.
- pslam 8y ago
  You win at right wing talking-points bingo. The whole point of the EU is that Europe is better when it's together. There were multiple wars, involving the death of many millions, and that's just the last hundred years. Independence is just dressed up nationalism, and all the ugly facets it is made of.
amelius 8y ago
That's it? Less than half a page to make their argument?
- ptaipale 8y ago
  The detailed argumentation is made elsewhere, in a longer format. For a declaration, I think half page is just right. Happy with my government for doing this (but very unhappy with the union).
  - ddebernardy 8y ago
    Save your being unhappy with the union for when the MEPs don't vote this down. Until then, be outraged at the lobbyists that nudged elected governments to support this, while keeping in mind that these elected governments' heads of state are the ones that nominate the head of the EC.
    - ptaipale 8y ago
      I am unhappy if the civil servants and the machinery of EU keeps preparing bad proposals, even if they are torpedoed by MEPs. This seems to be a constant case of pressure to which organisations then yield at some point. Yes, both elected and unelected officials should be better at resisting lobbying.
yeahforsureman 8y ago
What the hell, where's Sweden and Denmark? Or the much-hyped E-stonia? (Not that it would've made a difference.)
- Strom 8y ago
  The lack of Estonia seemed curious to me as well, given Estonia's voting history regarding Article 13. Then I looked up the voting history for all these countries. [1] The votes against Article 13 have been as follows: Poland 72% (36 vs 14) Netherlands 71% (17 vs 7) Finland 50% (6 vs 6) Italy 38% (25 vs 41) Luxembourg 33% (2 vs 4) Sweden 100% (18 vs 0) Estonia 83% (5 vs 1) Denmark 17% (2 vs 10) Looking at this frankly raises more questions than it answers. Has there been a big change of heart in say Italy suddenly? They've been voting in favor of article 13 thus far. -- [1] https://saveyourinternet.eu/act/ https://saveyourinternet.eu/act/
  - Kurtz79 8y ago
    In Italy there has been a radical change in terms of governing parties/policy towards the EU over the last year. Right now the majority elected for the EU parliament does not really match the actual government's disposition.
  - Tuna-Fish 8y ago
    What you are looking at are the views of the MEPs. MEPs represent specific people living in the country, not the country as whole. This statement was issued by the countries, meaning the representatives of the governments currently in power in those countries.
    - isostatic 8y ago
      Of the listed countries, 6 of the 8 - Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Sweden, Estonia and Denmark - are all 1 constituency countries, so the MEPs represent the entire country MEPs may well decide different things to the government though, just as the U.S. House could have a different view to the Senate.
kfwhp 8y ago
As long as France and Germany like it, that's all there is to it. Arguing will get you nowhere.
- rasz 8y ago
  Yep, just like Germany building Nord Stream 2 to bypass another EU country at the bidding of Putin.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
thecleaner 8y ago
I had no idea the copyright lobbying was so strong in Germany. We absolutely suck.
throwawaymanbot 8y ago
Poland AND Italy who both have (being polite) "Populist" govts installed (undermining democracy in polands case), working to help youtube and facebook, which have been shown to be valuable tools of indoctrination and false information spreading for "populists"... Who'd have thunk that!!

439 points by pasiaj 8y ago

gpm 8y ago

What does this mean procedurally? Is this a veto? A statement that is likely to effect an upcoming vote?

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
r3bl 8y ago
We'd need either 13 countries or any number of countries that represents 35% of the EU population to oppose this law. Last time, it was 8 countries representing 27% that opposed it. A handy voting calculator[0] gives us about 23.88% of the population using the countries listed here. This is (was?) a less-likely scenario to stop it. One final attempt will be when all the MEPs get a chance to vote on it. [0] https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/council-eu/voting-system/voting-calculator/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/council-eu/voting-system/...
- folbec 8y ago
  If the vote is before brexit it's 23.88% after brexit it's 27.42%.
  - Zenst 8y ago
    You raise a very poignant point, should votes that are borderline, that the UK MEP's have voted recently be reviewed?
    - noir_lord 8y ago
      Only if the vote is 51.89% to 48.11% on an overly broad decision made against the backdrop of lies, finance illegality and interference from external actors. I'm totally not bitter though honestly. If the worst comes to the worst I'll just marry my partner (she'll still be an EU national after March) and take my skills (and taxes) abroad.
    - avar 8y ago
      No, just like votes that happened just before new EU members joined in the past weren't revisited. You're either in or you're out. Britain's still in, and thus still gets to vote.
Someone 8y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_on_Copyright_in_the_Digital_Single_Market#Legislative_process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_on_Copyright_in_the_...: ”At this point, the text will be reviewed by the European Parliament Committee on Legal Affairs, and then presented to the full European Parliament for a vote. Should the vote succeed, then each of the EU's member states have up to 24 months to introduce laws within their own countries to support the Directive.” So, this is a statement “we believe the European Parliament should vote against this proposal”.
- DelightOne 8y ago
  > introduce laws within their own countries to support the Directive. Why so complicated? It seems a bad idea to have 28 different laws which generally say the same thing but with possibly small differences so it gets a minefield. No wonder EU is a difficult market. Who possibly thought that's a good idea?
  - riffraff 8y ago
    each country has a different legal system, trying to make a single legislation is _really_ hard and generally not worth it. Some countries never ratify the directives either. That's why GDPR (which is a regulation, not a directive) was such a big deal, but it came years after there was a data protection directive, allowing the systems to harmonize.
    - Someone 8y ago
      Also, directives typically describe goals, not the way to reach them. That gives individual countries some freedom. For example, Directive 2015/720 requires member states to reduce single-use plastic bag use by 50% by 2017 and 80% by 2019, but doesn’t tell anything about how to do that. Denmark taxes companies giving away bags, Ireland taxes every bag sold, the Netherlands made it illegal to give out free bags (with exceptions), Serbia (not EU, but aspiring to become an EU country) taxes manufacturers and importers of plastic bags, etc (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_lightweight_plastic_bags https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_lightweight_pla...) And yes, there likely are opportunities to game this. If you buy a can of beer or a single-use bottle of soda in Germany, for example, you pay a deposit that you get back when you return the empty vessel. Often, you can buy the same vessel in Belgium, where the deposit is lower, or the Netherlands, where deposits only exist for bottles of half a liter or more.
blibble 8y ago
almost all EU policy areas in the council are now done using Qualified Majority Voting > 55% of member states vote in favour - in practice this means 16 out of 28 > the proposal is supported by member states representing at least 65% of the total EU population more details: https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/council-eu/voting-system/qualified-majority/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/council-eu/voting-system/... removing national vetos is the core idea behind the EU (replacing intergovernmentalism with supranationalism)

citilife 8y ago

The issue I see with the EU, is that it's essentially centralizing all the "countries" into "states". Where by, each of the states will simply answer to the two countries with the most power. Namely Germany, followed by France. Personally, I think it's sad. It's as if we're watching the destruction of all the national identities. Only to be centralized by powers who are only interested in their own national identity. This is similar to the struggle the U.S. faced at the start. You cannot have a centralized government making laws without invasively deciding everything. A federation of the EU made sense. Shared currency, shared military, etc. But by trying to manage the economy (which copyright is an extension of), they are essentially going down the path of ever increasing centralization. With that, countries like the U.K., who have a strong national identity, can and should leave - if they want to be an independent nation.

Faelian 8y ago
Well, I would argue that not having a centralised fiscality is the biggest EU problem at the moment. Every country try to lower the tax for big companies to attract them, and now we have a situation where the GAFAM pay ridiculous taxes, and the citizen pay a bigger share of the pie.
raverbashing 8y ago
> It's as if we're watching the destruction of all the national identities. Apart from all its faults and goals, if there's one thing the EU (the institution) is less likely to touch is national identities (Merkel "wir shaffen das" nonetheless), but usually protects it, especially in the form of national products Oh and the "strong national identity" of the UK comes across often more as a lack of willing to modernize and adapt as just wanting to keep a national identity.
pslam 8y ago
You win at right wing talking-points bingo. The whole point of the EU is that Europe is better when it's together. There were multiple wars, involving the death of many millions, and that's just the last hundred years. Independence is just dressed up nationalism, and all the ugly facets it is made of.

amelius 8y ago

That's it? Less than half a page to make their argument?

ptaipale 8y ago
The detailed argumentation is made elsewhere, in a longer format. For a declaration, I think half page is just right. Happy with my government for doing this (but very unhappy with the union).
- ddebernardy 8y ago
  Save your being unhappy with the union for when the MEPs don't vote this down. Until then, be outraged at the lobbyists that nudged elected governments to support this, while keeping in mind that these elected governments' heads of state are the ones that nominate the head of the EC.
  - ptaipale 8y ago
    I am unhappy if the civil servants and the machinery of EU keeps preparing bad proposals, even if they are torpedoed by MEPs. This seems to be a constant case of pressure to which organisations then yield at some point. Yes, both elected and unelected officials should be better at resisting lobbying.

yeahforsureman 8y ago

What the hell, where's Sweden and Denmark? Or the much-hyped E-stonia? (Not that it would've made a difference.)

Strom 8y ago
The lack of Estonia seemed curious to me as well, given Estonia's voting history regarding Article 13. Then I looked up the voting history for all these countries. [1] The votes against Article 13 have been as follows: Poland 72% (36 vs 14) Netherlands 71% (17 vs 7) Finland 50% (6 vs 6) Italy 38% (25 vs 41) Luxembourg 33% (2 vs 4) Sweden 100% (18 vs 0) Estonia 83% (5 vs 1) Denmark 17% (2 vs 10) Looking at this frankly raises more questions than it answers. Has there been a big change of heart in say Italy suddenly? They've been voting in favor of article 13 thus far. -- [1] https://saveyourinternet.eu/act/ https://saveyourinternet.eu/act/
- Kurtz79 8y ago
  In Italy there has been a radical change in terms of governing parties/policy towards the EU over the last year. Right now the majority elected for the EU parliament does not really match the actual government's disposition.
- Tuna-Fish 8y ago
  What you are looking at are the views of the MEPs. MEPs represent specific people living in the country, not the country as whole. This statement was issued by the countries, meaning the representatives of the governments currently in power in those countries.
  - isostatic 8y ago
    Of the listed countries, 6 of the 8 - Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Sweden, Estonia and Denmark - are all 1 constituency countries, so the MEPs represent the entire country MEPs may well decide different things to the government though, just as the U.S. House could have a different view to the Senate.

kfwhp 8y ago

As long as France and Germany like it, that's all there is to it. Arguing will get you nowhere.

rasz 8y ago
Yep, just like Germany building Nord Stream 2 to bypass another EU country at the bidding of Putin.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

thecleaner 8y ago

I had no idea the copyright lobbying was so strong in Germany. We absolutely suck.

throwawaymanbot 8y ago

Poland AND Italy who both have (being polite) "Populist" govts installed (undermining democracy in polands case), working to help youtube and facebook, which have been shown to be valuable tools of indoctrination and false information spreading for "populists"... Who'd have thunk that!!