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Animal Farm was a really important book for me. I picked it up aged about 10 or 11 and I remember being really struck by how easily the pigs were able to exploi
by scrumper 8y ago
Animal Farm was a really important book for me. I picked it up aged about 10 or 11 and I remember being really struck by how easily the pigs were able to exploit the other animals' grievances with humans to secure their own power. It felt like a grown-up story with some quite powerful, disturbing meanings under the covers. So I told my English teacher about it and all she told me in response was to go look up the Russian Revolution. I didn't understand why, but did it, and then the book had a second, much bigger impact on me. And of course what a way to learn about allegory!
It was the first time I realized books could be dangerous, subversive, and truly educational as well as simply informative or entertaining.
- subjectHarold 8y ago...are you serious? The book was an allegory (I had to look it up)???? I just thought it was a cautionary tale meant to discourage animals from going into farm management. These capitalists, with their underhand tricks...F YOU GORDEN ORSNELL!!!11""! My childhood is ruined.
- quibono 8y agoI'm not sure why you're being sarcastic, I can easily see the book having a big impact on a young person. No need to be mean or patronising.
- subjectHarold 8y agoI'm not sure why you think I was being sarcastic. Irony isn't the same thing as sarcasm. I made no comment, implied or otherwise, about the person I was replying to. The comment was about the book, the fact that many people haven't studied Russian history, and the humour that results from the many possible interpretations...which works well when you have to explain it. Btw, you don't need to interrogate everything for hidden meaning. Jokes about misinterpretation and misunderstandings are common, they aren't some kind of Mao-era public struggle session. The reason they are funny is because they happen to everyone and because interpretation is so personal. There is no one interpretation of Animal Farm that is correct...but some are more humorous than others (intentional).
- gchamonlive 8y agoThat was clearly sarcasm. A directed one and thus patronising. Irony happens when there is a contrast between intent and effect, like "the man had to bring his car to the repair shop after driving over a pothole. He is ironically responsible for maintaining the roads"
- subjectHarold 8y agoThe purpose of sarcasm is to mock someone, I am not mocking anyone. What is odd now: why do you think I care to lie to you about this? I am telling you what the joke is, why do you need to be offended? As said, assume you are correct: that is a very odd way to interpret the huge corpus of jokes about misinterpretation...as the point of those jokes is, often, that interpretation is personal. And your understanding of irony is not correct. Effect is a particularly odd word to use: irony is a rhetorical device, no device dictates effect. Perhaps you meant meaning, and the point of irony is that the ironic statement has multiple meanings. Your example is terrible. I refer to you my original comment, which was ironic. I also refer you to your own comment: lecturing someone about the meaning of their statement whilst failing to understand that meaning, is also an example of irony...but I don't get offended about misinterpretations.
- jessaustin 8y agoTruly, most of those who struggle to speak it and write it do not deserve the English language, any more than their great teacher Alanis Morrisette. The situation you describe is not irony. Irony is a property of communication, not of coincidence.
- tsbertalan 8y agoAn event can still be situationally, or cosmically ironic even if it's not in fiction. if you really want it to be a property of communication, then think of the communication as being between the universe, or God and the subject. More importantly, English is defined by common usage, and the usage of irony in describing an unexpected combination of real events has been common for hundreds of years. I believe this probably comes from people's common belief in fate, or that their lives are part of some broader story. Under this mindset, it makes perfect sense to use terms from literature to describe phenomena of life. And your insistence that irony is a property of communication is satisfied. Words have multiple senses, and the ones from common usage are just as valid as the ones from academic usage, though they may be harder to pin down.
- scrumper 8y agoI was ten years old, Harold.
- gdy 8y agoShhhh. Let Harold enjoy his feeling of superiority.
- scarecrowbob 8y agoOne of the strangest things about that text is that very few of the folks I've talked to about it seem to feel that the issue with the pigs at the end is that there is a farmer. That is to say, I very rarely find anyone who will agree that the book is anti-capitalist at teh same time that it's opposed to Stalinism. I see the book continually taken happily anti-communist text. But the text is certainly not _just_ about the Soviet system under Stalin. Over the years, the big impact of Orwell to me has been how readily people can look at systems that they consider to be Other than their own and critique them while eagerly ignoring the implications for their own situation. That is, everyone here thinks the sheep are dumb, but at least they went through a period of time where they tried to replace the farmer with a different pig... where I live in Texas, all the sheep just think they are the farmer.
- scrumper 8y agoI agree with you I think. I took it as more an anti-authoritarian story than purely anti-capitalist or anti-communist. The anti-capitalist parts are fairly self-evident, at least to me: that's the rather brutal system the farmer has imposed on the animals at the start. Booting the farmer out and starting again with the animal-owned collective sets the story up for the real message, which is that power corrupts and it is very easy for anyone attracted to power to co-opt legitimate grievance for their own ends. The return of the farmer brings a nice circularity to the story as well as giving the idea that the imposition of will on others is usually to their detriment. Capitalism or communism are basically indistinguishable to everyone existing without power or influence.
- TopHand 8y agoIt is an allegory of the Russian Revolution of 1917. The farmer represents the Tsarist autocracy. In a Tsarist autocracy all power and wealth is controlled by the Tsar (Farmer Jones). This is actually a long way from capitalism. In the end the pigs form what is referred to as an oligarchy.
- misterdoubt 8y ago
- news_hacker 8y agoDoes anyone have any recommendations for reading up on the Russian Revolution? Books, videos, or otherwise.
- kylej762 8y agoDarkness at Noon, by Arthur Koestler, is another allegorical book about the Russian Revolution, more specifically the Moscow trials that followed. The book had a strong impact on me.
- atmosx 8y agoGreat great book. I need to re-read it.
- Anthony-G 8y agoIt’s a great book but I would recommend it to readers who are already somewhat familiar with the Russian Revolution and how Stalin seized power (defeating both the left and right-wing oppositions within the Bolshevik party) after the death of Lenin.
- scrumper 8y agoA famous contemporary account is Ten Days that Shook the World. it was written by an American who, it's safe to say, was fairly pro-communist. But really it's such a pivotal moment in modern history that you're not going to starve for material. It sounds glib, but in this instance you could do worse than start on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Revolution
- yesenadam 8y agoTo The Finland Station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_the_Finland_Station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_the_Finland_Station
- thefringthing 8y agoSci-fi author China Mieville recently wrote "October: The Story of the Russian Revolution".
- marvindanig 8y agoTotally, I agree! Even though George Orwell is more known for 1984 but his work truly shines with the Animal Farm. It is a children's book fwiw but every aspect of it is meant for the grown-ups. Outstanding! Luckily if you're in Australia, you can read this book for free because it is public domain there. [1] https://bubblin.io/cover/animal-farm-by-george-orwell https://bubblin.io/cover/animal-farm-by-george-orwell (iPad-book) [2] http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks01/0100011.txt http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks01/0100011.txt
- Jill_the_Pill 8y agoThanks for the link. It was fun reading it again for the first time in 30 years!
- marvindanig 8y agoYou're welcome! :-)
- tennisballboy5 8y agoNice thanks for sharing that
- kamaal 8y ago>>I told my English teacher about it and all she told me in response was to go look up the Russian Revolution. You have to only look at the management hierarchy in your company. Pigs in the Animal Farm novel eat apples. We pigs are brainworkers. The whole management and organisation of this farm depend on us. Day and night we are watching over your welfare. It is for YOUR sake that we drink that milk and eat those apples. Why do you think your bosses get business travel, no limit credit cards, RSU, big bonuses and neat double digit monthly pay check. It is for YOUR sake that we drink that milk and eat those apples.
- thecopy 8y ago>Why do you think your bosses get business travel, no limit credit cards, RSU, big bonuses and neat double digit monthly pay check. Sorry, but i dont believe this is an accurate analogy. The reason is that otherwise they might leave for another opportunity. No-one is telling workers what the pigs are saying in AF.
- kamaal 8y agoThat is true for every body in any company. But it happens only with the management.
- andy_boot 8y agoI highly recommend Homage to Catalonia if you liked Animal Farm. It really explains how Orwell became disillusioned with communism (while fighting for it).
- hutzlibu 8y agoThats a quite simplistic way of interpreting. He fought for socialism and he stayed a socialist - but he became a enemy of Stalinism. The brotherhood and spirit of the socialist militia he was in, he praised as real and something he never experienced before or after.
- andy_boot 8y agoSimplistic yes, but also true. He became throughly disillusioned with socialism because he felt that someone like Stalin would always take control of it. My interpretation was that he was always anti-authority, but his experiences led him to believe that an authoritian figure will always try to grab power and it doesn't matter what `side` they say they are for, power is their aim. True he liked the spirit of his socialist militia but by the end I think he felt its spirit had been crushed and abused by others.
- billfruit 8y agoI think something similar, and even more scarier is 'The Lord of the Flies'. Also perhaps 'Watership Down'.