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The more you know about the world and tech especially, the more you will get depressed, IMO, maybe I'm wrong. Humans in general are pretty shitty, driven mostl

by avgDev 8y ago

The more you know about the world and tech especially, the more you will get depressed, IMO, maybe I'm wrong. Humans in general are pretty shitty, driven mostly by self-interest. I guess there are people driven by doing good but most people are capable of doing terrible things, especially when in a group. I do suffer from existential depression, I'm generally pretty happy, but as I learn more and live longer my outlook on the world gets worse. I did therapy, it was nice to talk about things I would not bring up with friends/SO. I tried meds but side-effects generally suck and the whole medical industry in the US raises my blood pressure. Edit: I would still encourage anyone feeling unhappy/depressed to try all the options meds/therapy/meditation/w.e before accepting defeat.

tabtab 8y ago
Agreed. The average human is illogical. It's not easy for Vulcans to live among Ferengies. I don't claim to be "mostly right", but I do claim to use and be able to produce a logical train of thought for recommending courses of actions. I can write it out in detail if and when requested. However, few are really interested in a logical justification: they usually use office politics and their "gut" to decide. Sorry, but most guts are not very bright nor accurate in my experience. I've decided it's best to join them instead of fight them because humans are social animals above all else. But, it's not easy to transition at all. I think I was born on the wrong planet.
- magduf 8y ago
  If you live around people who resemble Ferengi (that's the proper plural form), then maybe you should look at relocating to a different country where the people don't share the attitudes of the Ferengi.
  - mjevans 8y ago
    Tell me, when can we begin construction of a new utopia in international waters with emigration and citizenship requirements that are angled at attracting Vulcan-like types? What are your plans for getting world nations to recognize the sovereign authority of such a region and for being economically healthy over the long term? I've never run the numbers, but pre-napkin estimation makes me believe such ventures are too risky, expensive, and rife for scams from 'Ferengi' to be worth exploring.
    - magduf 8y ago
      What are you talking about? There's plenty of countries where highly-skilled tech professionals can easily emigrate to.
    - throwaway920 8y ago
      I have many friends in my current or other FAANG companies in Europe and most of them got offers to relocate in US. Believe me or not, a tiny percentage accepted despite the big increase in salary because they don't want in a Ferengi society. Perhaps my social circle is biased.
    - tabtab 8y ago
      Being a Vulcan type won't necessarily make you wealthy. Most commerce is based on the art of selling, not the art of logic. In other words, tricking people. The best products from a technical standpoint often fail in the market. Better and cheaper GUI's than MS-Windows existed in the 80's, but MS's marketing muscle steam-rolled them. If you are talking about "smarts" in terms of inventing new things in the lab, as I mentioned earlier, being right or smart and being logical are not necessarily the same thing. In my book, being logical is being able to produce a clear line of reasoning for a suggested course of action. The "givens" in the "proof" may be wrong, but at least the proof is correct using the stated givens. The debate should then be on the givens, not on the proof logic. For example, my suggested UI designs often make assumptions about what confuses end-users. I often don't have inspectable studies to justify such, and others are welcome to disagree with human UI interaction psychology. But at least my assumptions are clear, and I make a decent attempt to explain the steps user may take or think in based on my experience, such as inconsistencies between screens, or variances from other common products an org uses.
- albertgoeswoof 8y ago
  You think others are being illogical when they make decisions that don’t appear logical to you. However a more logical conclusion is that others are acting in a logical way and you lack all the information they have about the decision.
  - tabtab 8y ago
    That may or may not be true, but I cannot tell because they don't tell me: they just do, and often get it wrong by my observation. It often turns out they over-focus on a few narrow pet factors. Good decisions require being curious: what are others' opinions on this, and if they are wrong, why are their opinions wrong? It takes debate to get to the bottom of thinking.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- sjjshzvuiajhz 8y ago
  People are constantly constructing internal narratives to explain their actions. From the perspective of the narrator, with a life’s worth of context, those actions fit into the narrative in a perfectly logical way. From the perspective of others who lack that context, those actions can seem illogical. Maybe you really are more logical than the people around you, but on the other hand you can’t read minds - maybe you can’t simulate the brains of the people you meet with sufficient accuracy to reconstruct their internal logic.
  - tabtab 8y ago
    I'm willing to share my reasoning and logic with anybody who asks, and will refine it if it lacks clarity. I enjoy having my logic tuned by other minds; it makes me even MORE logical to be challenged, even if it hurts my pride in the short-term. Others are not so open and don't want their thinking process challenged. I don't know why, other than pride, ego, or office politics. If you know why, please tell me. Don't be shy: share it, people!
    - sjjshzvuiajhz 8y ago
      We’ve never met, but from what you’ve said in this thread, it sounds like you have a low opinion of the people around you. You’re good at finding flaws. That’s a valuable skill, but when you direct that fault-finding toward other people, they will become defensive. It’s rarely productive to ask someone that was wrong, why did you do that? You may have steel skin, but for most people, that feels like an attack. The person you’re questioning can perceive in your body language and tone of voice the “he’s just another illogical idiot” thought that’s running through your mind. The basic instinct when faced with an attack is fight or flight. Productive adult humans have usually learned that diffusing conflict by disengaging works better than fighting back. This means that you are unlikely to get the answer that you are looking for. This doesn’t mean you can’t question people and find out why they do what they do! The importing thing is to be nice about it. Don’t think: I wonder if this illogical idiot can come up with an explanation for his bullshit? Think: It seems like this thing X Bob made contributed to a problem with thing Y and that’s making me angry at Bob - but I bet Bob thought a lot about thing X when he made it, but he didn’t think about thing Y, and now he knows thing Y is broken and he feels guilty about it. Why don’t I ask him about what he likes about working on X so I can appreciate the good ideas he had, and maybe tell him a little about what I like about how Y works so he knows not to break it next time. Communication is hard. It requires two brains that are full of different memories and habits to sync with one another. You really have to want to understand the other person. I’d go further and say you need to care about them, and know what they care about, for your interactions with them to make sense and be satisfying for the both of you. I’ve found that intentionally caring about the people around me improves my relationships with those people and makes life more enjoyable.
- tunap 8y ago
  Fellow martian here. You may get some satisfaction from reading Khaneman's "Thinking Fast & Slow". Most everyone is BSing themselves. As to the 'why?', Sagan's "Demon Haunted World" lays it out pretty succinctly. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Demon-Haunted_World https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Demon-Haunted_World
platz 8y ago
s/tech/business ?
- 8ytecoder 8y ago
  Tech industry as discussed in HN is very different from "tech". I have struggled to define exactly what it means but the typical companies include Google, FB, Pinterest, Airbnb, Uber and the like. They don't necessarily have to be in Silicon Valley / Bay Area but they all share a certain commonality irrespective of what domain they operate on.
smaddox 8y ago
I used to think like this. Then I read "12 Rules for Life" by Jordan Peterson and "Daring Greatly" by Brene Brown a few times, and I realized I was making an implicit choice to see the world that way, and that it is a completely counter productive viewpoint. A shift in perspective can change everything.
- kelvin0 8y ago
  I think smaddox makes a good point, I don't get the downvotes. https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/comments/9eaqqt/what_we_can_control/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/comments/9eaqqt/what_we_ca... "The first is that some things are within our control and some are not, and that much of our unhappiness is caused by thinking that we can control things that, in fact, we can’t." You choose to change your mental 'model' and re-frame your perspective (not to be confused with burying your head in the sand). I don't consider myself as being a 'stoic' or evangelize it at all, however this mindset seems quite adequate in many of life's challenges.
  - albertgoeswoof 8y ago
    Downvotes are probably related to Jordan Peterson
    - kelvin0 8y ago
      Really? I did not realize he was shunned on HN.
- LeifCarrotson 8y ago
  Didn't downvote you, but while I've heard similar recommendations before, that's not a reasonable response to existential depression. On the one hand, you're correct, one's outlook on the world does impact your mood. Humans are emotional and easily confused, and shifting your viewpoint can change your mood in powerful ways. Perhaps those books present a position from which to view the world that's useful in lifting one's mood, which shifts your attention away from things which are depressing and towards things which are uplifting. On the other, if there are genuine facts which are important and which cause me to be depressed, it is important to me in my core values to believe those things to be true, neither blinding myself to their existence nor incorrectly believing them to be false. Changing a viewpoint will not cause those inconvenient facts to become false: They exist, they cause depression, I am aware of them, hence I am depressed. I am willing to add facts to my worldview which are uplifting and counterbalance the depressing ones. I am willing to adjust priorities and weigh the importance of the depressing ones less and the uplifting ones more, in proportion to the degree that they are or are not important. I might be willing to cheat a small amount, and allow myself to lean my viewpoint slightly to the happy side of the correct position if that position is more productive, but there's a fairly low limit to the self-deception I can tolerate, even if it causes me to be depressed.
ryanstorm 8y ago
Your comment aligns with an old HN comment that I have saved that resonated with me: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16402387 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16402387 I'd also recommend people feeling this way to read The Happiness Hypothesis by Jonathan Haidt. It helped me.
- technobabble 8y ago
  Thank you for linking to the book, and the previous comment.
- solarkraft 8y ago
  Thanks for sharing this comment. I do have a bit of trouble with the last paragraph. Am I understanding correctly that the author claims depression is neccessary for building a better model of the world? I'm sure depression has caused me to think about things and get a better understanding of them, but is it neccessary? What am I currently building a better model of?
  - guntars 8y ago
    In the beginning the author of the comment said that a broken model results in a loss of confidence which then prevents us from acting on that model and forces us to figure out a better one. They're saying that's what depression is - the downtime when you're supposed to play it safe and re-analyze the data and build a better fitting model. I can see how it can be better to not act on a broken model in case it could result in some harm, but it also stops us from gathering new data that might be important.
  - watwut 8y ago
    When I had depression, I stared into the wall tired of everything. Everything was pointless and everybody annoying. Just about only thing I understood better was depressive state itself. It ended when I got healthy and the only inside I have is more understanding for depressive people.
- everdrive 8y ago
  Thanks for sharing this. I've found it really helpful. I had similar, but poorly express thoughts about depression for quite a while. I really appreciate this excellent theory and explanation.
amelius 8y ago
And if you want to be really depressed, switch from tech to philosophy, and in particular the branch that is concerned with the nature of consciousness.
- etrautmann 8y ago
  I'm curious why you find that depressing? Do you think the idea of lacking free will and consciousness as chaotic dynamics reduces agency or something else?
  - epberry 8y ago
    Also curious about this.
kingsloi 8y ago
I just made HN account to reply to this, as I feel like I suffer with "existential depression" too. I had never heard of that before, so thanks for commenting. As I get older, the more I read, it just seems to be always doom and gloom. The obviousness that's occurring to things around us. I'm a natural born worrier anyway, but as I get older I think more about "existence". My wife and I plan to have kids, but then I'll lay there awake at night and part of me thinks, why? I don't think we're heading to a particularly nice place.
- scruple 8y ago
  Check out Factfulness by Hans Rosling. It presents a compelling case that many of us (westerners) misjudge the state of the world.
- magduf 8y ago
  Do you live in the US? That's probably a big part of the problem. Everything in the US is doom and gloom, and everyone in the US is horribly paranoid. People are constantly paranoid about someone attacking them, and kids aren't allowed to run around outside because "someone might kidnap them". People that do get a visit from the police and CPS for "child abandonment". If you're planning to have kids, doing it in the US is not something I'd recommend unless you can afford a full-time nanny. It's just not a country that's fit for raising children in any more. Other developed nations offer much healthier environments for raising a family.
  - jki275 8y ago
    What "US" are you talking about? There are 50 states, all of whom have very different attitudes and values, and within those are thousands of counties, cities, towns, and unincorporated areas where nothing you wrote applies.
    - magduf 8y ago
      Most of those small towns and unincorporated areas are useless for someone who makes a living in the tech industry. It doesn't matter how nice a place is; if you can't get good-paying work there, it's not a place you can reasonably live. Face the facts: the tech jobs are mostly all in a handful of metro areas, where everything I said is completely true. And it's a completely reasonable assumption that the vast majority of people reading my comment work in the tech industry.
gabriel34 8y ago
I disagree, depression is a disease, not a worldview. One can be cynical/pessimist/whatever and not have this affect his day to day, impede him from achieving goals, paralyze him or bring him to suicide. People in bad situations can have positive, active, non-depressive reactions. One can also be depressed and not care two bits about shitty people.
- 0x8BADF00D 8y ago
  There is a degree of correlation between circadian rhythm dysfunction (i.e. sleep disorders) and depression. Worldview is separate, but trauma is definitely an input to that function. The more trauma one has, the more likely they are to have a comorbid mental disorder.
coleifer 8y ago
In my head I refer to this perspective as "this toilet earth". And it's easy to get swept away by it. The antidote is in your own heart, and in the hearts of all people. An unselfish, hidden act of love. Taking actions that align with what we commonly understand to be good, kind and unselfish have literally changed the way I think and the way I see (most of the time, right?). I could never think myself into acceptance of the world, but by taking actions my perception has changed without any effort.
- ganzuul 8y ago
  When depressed you do good deeds and feel nothing.
  - coleifer 8y ago
    Well, I wasn't talking about being kind in order to feel good about myself. That would be the same old turd (selfishness) just wrapped up in a nicer package. Like when I'm sitting on the airplane that's been parked outside the gate for an hour, my ass is killing me and I'm ready to go home and I start silently cursing everyone and everything that stands in my way -- YET, when I disembark, I still smile and thank the stewardess, and let the antsy types cut in front on their way off the plane. I go to bed with a feeling of dignity and peace.
    - ganzuul 8y ago
      Oh, sorry. Didn't mean to imply that. It's difficult to describe... - The archive unzips and the files seem to be OK but the checksum fails, maybe? You should feel good when you do good deeds, but there are other motivations to do good too. When depressed, you can process things like understanding enlightened self-interest, but the evolutionary reward system fails to fire.
      - coleifer 8y ago
        I didn't mean to contradict you. Speaking personally, I would go through these bouts of "trying to be good" and I could pull it off for a couple of days max before the mask dropped. I just couldn't ever stop judging, criticizing, blaming, etc. I love the analogy, by the way. Or, "I double-clicked it, it's right there! Why the fuck won't it open?"
adamnemecek 8y ago
I used to be a wreck, possibly worse than you. Irritable, depressed, in poor health. Eventually it got to the point where I just couldn’t take it anymore and I quit my job to work on personal projects and read. I would recommend it to anyone. My skills have gotten much better, you’ll get a chance to do the things you always wanted and you’ll be happier. Say what you will about Jordan Peterson but he’s spot in this interview (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Xc7DN-noAc&t=1h18m22s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Xc7DN-noAc&t=1h18m22s) Depression is related to boredom. Are you bored at work? Being busy doesn’t mean you aren’t bored.
tomp 8y ago
Wow, I rarely so deeply profoundly and strongly disagree with a statement. I'm fascinated by both how far humans have come, and how peaceful we've become. We haven't had a major war for decades, despite having more and better weapons. Capitalism has unleashed a revolution in technology and society. We're improving lives more rapidly and profoundly than ever, despite there being more and more of us. There are long-term visions and movements springing up all across the world (ecological, environmental, etc) and they seem to be gaining steam. We're reaching for the stars, and it seems like we might actually get there eventually. It's really remarkable of what humans are capable of, both on the micro level (every time I'm driving I'm surprised there's not more accidents, given how slow human reaction times are and how fast and near each other cars are moving), and on the macro level (a society with 7 billion souls, each driven by its own mostly-selfish desires (survival, reproduction, power), making progress and deals and working on causes, together).
- Bhilai 8y ago
  The western countries have not had a major war in a while, thats true but thats not the reality for everyone else. I'd recommend you take a look at pictures of war ravaged Syria and read about children dying of starvation in Libya. Surely some western countries have reaped benefits of capitalism and ease of life with increased influence of technology, but again that is not true for many other parts of the world. I don't mean to diminish the great work many have done and the overall improvement in quality of life for some but its not as rosy as say for a huge chunk of the population of the world which lives in intense poverty.
  - albertgoeswoof 8y ago
    Progress is the reality for most of the world. War and poverty is much than it was ten, a hundred, thousand or ten thousand years ago. On pretty much every metric humanity is succeeding and moving forward.
  - badpun 8y ago
    > Surely some western countries have reaped benefits of capitalism and ease of life with increased influence of technology, but again that is not true for many other parts of the world. I'd say some aspect of technology has got to be everywhere (except isolated tribes) - be it electricity, cars, medicine, plumbing, better seeds and agriculture equipment, cheap factory-made clothes etc.
ergl 8y ago
Your tl;dr is alarmingly defeatist. If you're in tech and feeling angry all the time, the answer is not to try meds, the answer is to get politically involved and change the moral bankrupty of our industry. If you're US based, check your nearest TWC (https://techworkerscoalition.org/ https://techworkerscoalition.org/) chapter.
- magduf 8y ago
  There's not much you can do in US politics if you're a techie working in the tech industry. Face it, you're probably not a highly charismatic person who has a chance of winning any serious election beyond the local school board. The answer is to go someplace else where you don't feel angry all the time.
  - ergl 8y ago
    In the last year employee pressure has forced Facebook to acknowledge their cafeteria staff right to unionize, stop Google from building military tech and a politically censored search engine, drop arbitration for sexual harassment cases, get BuzzFeed to pay for time off for all the employees that it laid off. It's true you might not get far if your only goal is to get into office. Meanwhile, there's plenty you can do at a local level. Going somewhere else is only delaying the problem.
    - magduf 8y ago
      >Meanwhile, there's plenty you can do at a local level. Going somewhere else is only delaying the problem. Working at the local level isn't going to get you significant change very quickly at higher levels. Basically, you won't enjoy the fruits of your labor, but maybe your kids or grandkids will, if they stick around. Going somewhere else will get you into a situation you like better right away, and is only "delaying the problem" for the people who stick around, who you're leaving behind to deal with it. >In the last year employee pressure has forced Facebook to acknowledge their cafeteria staff right to unionize Facebook remains a real problem for society, but their cafeteria stuff can unionize... I don't see how this really helps anyone except the cafeteria staff, and certainly doesn't help the billions of people whose privacy is threatened by Facebook.
briancleland 8y ago
I would humbly suggest you look for historical figures who had a hard-headed and realistic view of the world, but who were also positive and healthy in their outlook. Their approach to life might suggest a way forward. We have a surprising amount of freedom in how we interpret the world around us. "Everything has two handles, the one by which it may be carried, the other by which it cannot."
- User23 8y ago
  > I would humbly suggest you look for historical figures who had a hard-headed and realistic view of the world, but who were also positive and healthy in their outlook For example, the Meditations: http://classics.mit.edu/Antoninus/meditations.html http://classics.mit.edu/Antoninus/meditations.html
dak1 8y ago
People don't act on perfect information. In general, what they know is what is personally relevant to them. Given limited information, we use shortcuts for making decisions, including what we believe to be best for us based on pre-learned models that are shaped by education, our peers, media, and culture in general. Often, our models our wrong. This can be manifested as racist beliefs and actions, as well as rejection of actual facts, among other outcomes. Of course, the outcome is also entirely possible to be a positive one despite the inputs being inaccurate or incomplete. Yet, despite our simple models and narrow understanding of the world, we, as a species, have managed to build friendships, communities, and civilizations. We have peered back in time billions of years, learned of our place in the universe, and invented pizza. It's easy to get focused on all the problems, because that tends to take up most of our focus — but only because we're constantly striving to improve and solve those problems. Sometimes these problems are social, collective action issues, built on incorrect personal models distributed across millions or billions of individuals, and they can take longer to resolve than many of us would like. But, looking at the arc of history, we trend toward progress. Therefore, I think the correct response to the human condition is one of hope. Of course, this whole experiment that is humanity could end tomorrow or next century due to a nuclear holocaust, GRB, climate change, superbug, or a billion of other existential threats. But until it does, let's marvel at the run we have had, and continue to subscribe to the mass delusion of hope that has served us well so far.
MuffinFlavored 8y ago
> before accepting defeat. What does accepting defeat mean in your opinion?
- avgDev 8y ago
  For me it is accepting the things as they are, and just getting on with life and pretending to be relatively happy to satisfy my SO. I generally try to help others, but I'm talking about bigger things like income inequality, healthcare costs of which I don't have any control over. I make enough money now, not to worry about those things but many people do and it bothers me.
sjjshzvuiajhz 8y ago
People do good things and bad things. If in the presence of a combination of good things and bad things, you focus on the bad things and the bad things dominate your subjective experience of existence, you are probably suffering from depression.
- coldtea 8y ago
  Or, you know, not all periods have a balance of "good things and bad things".
  - sjjshzvuiajhz 8y ago
    Sure, if you’re sad because you’re starving in a drainage ditch, or your best friend just died, that doesn’t mean you’re depressed. But if your basic needs as an organism are met, you have great latitude to occupy your brain with thoughts that make you happy or sad.
jplayer01 8y ago
Every day I see people behaving in shitty ways, not giving any consideration for the people around them or the place that they live. It's like the tragedy of the commons pervades every public space in a city. Nobody feels ownership, nobody cares, nobody feels responsibility for their actions.
- ganzuul 8y ago
  From the opposite perspective, you have to limit yourself with how many things you can care about in a day. Aside from all the people living in ignorance and spreading the same, there is also a torrent of rotten luck. Many people do a lot of good, but for how much bad stuff is out there it is hard work. I'm glad to see kids in school are not being brought up to be as rotten as my classmates, and from listening to my parents they seem to say the same in turn. My grandparents say little about their experience, save for hints of savagery. Things are improving, albeit slowly.
coldtea 8y ago
>The more you know about the world and tech especially, the more you will get depressed, IMO, maybe I'm wrong. The problem is that you can't say that today -- depression has to be all about BS "chemical imbalances", and never about the sorry state of the world and/or people's personal affairs. Even something as simple as artificial light or enforced working hours, and commutes are nothing like people have evolved for millennia to live with -- even less so screens, sedentary work, constant barrage of psychological manipulation through ads and tv and social media, and so on. Add to that all kinds of crazy rules we impose to our lives, and societal pressures unheard of in older times (where the main concerns if you've made it to adulthood were mostly getting by with enough food), and its a wonder not everybody is depressed.
- gdulli 8y ago
  > The problem is that you can't say that today -- depression has to be all about BS "chemical imbalances" Really? I googled "what causes depression", first link: "It's often said that depression results from a chemical imbalance, but that figure of speech doesn't capture how complex the disease is. Research suggests that depression doesn't spring from simply having too much or too little of certain brain chemicals. Rather, there are many possible causes of depression, including faulty mood regulation by the brain, genetic vulnerability, stressful life events, medications, and medical problems. It's believed that several of these forces interact to bring on depression." https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/what-causes-depression https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/what-causes-dep...
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >Really? I googled "what causes depression", first link So, even the first link agrees that "it's often said". Now add how many times depression is treated immediately with drugs as a physiological disease of the individual.
- ip26 8y ago
  FWIW mild happiness, a six or seven on a scale of ten, seems to be the default human condition whether they live in a palace or a mud hut. So it's not hard to imagine something unusual might be going on if you personally report a two out of ten.
kempbellt 8y ago
This resonates with me quite a bit. Some food for thought, as I have become more aware of this in my own life over the past year. I've also touched on this in past comments, but it might be worth re-mentioning. I spent a week in the hospital last year (then 2 weeks in out-patient therapy), after having a nervous breakdown - related to deep depression, some suicidal thoughts, and high anxiety. Also, for a better picture of the week I was in the hospital. I wasn't bedridden, attached to an IV or anything. I was able to wander around. Hang out with other patients. Play board games. Engage in social activities. Etc. During that week, I didn't have my phone, and I rarely interacted with technology, besides watching some TV in the evening in a large room with other people. Even that was socially engaging, because we would all laugh together, and some people would comment on things in the movie or TV. I came to a better understanding of what was really triggering my depression. My lifestyle, as a dedicated programmer, was killing me slowly. I would wake up, workout for a bit, and then go to work behind a desk. Where I sit (and stand occasionally) for 8 or so hours per day. Doing almost nothing physically engaging, and socializing at arms length via Slack, email, or Github comments. Sure, I get lunch with people sometimes. Sure, I go for walks throughout the day. But the work I do is not physically or socially engaging. It's very antisocial, actually. What has really saved my mind lately has been learning to snowboard. It's physically engaging. Social too, if you go with people - though you'll likely chat with people on chair lifts or in the lodges. It's painful to learn (I broke my tailbone day 1). But it is absolutely worth it. When I'm up on the mountain, I literally CANNOT think about work. If I do, I crash immediately. Even better, as I go through the work week, I look forward to my weekends where I can get up on the mountain, and even occasionally I take a "powder day" if I need to. As a result, I'm happier. I'm a more productive employee at my job. I get along with my coworkers better, and I am less depressed in general. My 2 cents. Hope it helps. On another note. More people deal with this than you may realize. Just look around you. If you're feeling down, or depressed, you don't have to keep it to yourself. When I got back to work after my "forced vacation" in the hospital, a coworker asked me if I was okay and what happened. I mentioned that I had been very depressed, and immediately got a hug. I was like "Oh shit... I didn't realize I worked with actual humans until now" Also... vitamin D works wonders
jjtheblunt 8y ago
I wonder if aerobic exercise, even just a little, would have beneficial side effects. for some, myself included, it tends to cause physical side effects not likely endorphin release that just feels frivolous, like being a playing kid.
ozzyman700 8y ago
>Humans in general are pretty shitty, driven mostly by self-interest. Water takes the path of least resistance, Humans take the path of least expected effort expenditure to accomplish their desires Both are just doing as nature does, being themselves. Why be sad that every person will do the least amount of work to satisfy their desires, when it is an inevitability, but your sadness is not.
- kempbellt 8y ago
  I have to say, this is the best way I've seen this explained. And it takes no sides. Good comment
  - ozzyman700 8y ago
    Thank you for your kind words. My words were mildly plagiarized from Henry George, author of Progress and Poverty. He is where the idea of people fulfilling their desires with the minimum exertion came from in my comment. I also love myself some stoic reading which ties in nicely with Mr. George's theory of minimum effort. Progress and Poverty is a great book and I am constantly stopping and thinking how well supported his ideas are.
- falcolas 8y ago
  Not all humans. That’s the big kicker for me. A lot of the shit is being generated by a minority, and there is another minority who are genuinely good people That, IMO, makes it harder to accept the fact those who do generate the shit are also “a natural part of humankind”.
- agumonkey 8y ago
  Except we're supposed to be intelligent. Early on in my life I felt something, I never get angry at nature, no matter harmful, but disappointment by other beings hurts deeply. Nature doesn't pretend to choose, it just is. That made me a lot more at ease with objects than people.
  - MarsAscendant 8y ago
thisisit 8y ago
I was in the same place sometime ago. There are still days,like today, when I regress but slowly taking that into stride. Here's what has helped: 1. Cut down on the habit of "knowing" more. Nothing happens if I skip news and tech for a day or two. 2. Meditation - I started with Calm app but then moved to Insight timer and now I do it with music alone. 3. Add a hobby in life. I took up reading big time. Mainly some light fiction and YA books.
- gotocake 8y ago
  Same experiences for me. I cut waaaaay down on news, cut out almost all TV news except for banal stuff, and in general stopped studying massively depressing topics that I was unsuited, unwilling, or unable to help solve. I’m still saddened by plenty of things, just not depressed. I also try to eat well, get plenty of sleep and exercise, and make sure not to drop social time. All told I think th biggest difference between depressed-me, and me today is that I’ve divested myself of the illusion of control.
SolaceQuantum 8y ago
Follow up query: Why is it depressing to acknowledge that the world we know is a slow calamity of a thousand imperfections? (Context: I was distressed as a child (teens) about the above, but in my mid-twenties I have grown at peace with the knowledge of the world's many imperfections and inhumanitarian humanity. I'm still very young, I know this, so what am I missing here? Widsom is appreciated.)
- zzzcpan 8y ago
  It's not depressing to acknowledge anything, maybe even the opposite. Understanding why things are the way they are might help you stay at peace.
  - SolaceQuantum 8y ago
    I guess I'm confused because I can't understand what is depressing about an increasingly dire worldview. I'm attributing this to my age right now, and would like wisdom in the matter.
MarsAscendant 8y ago
> Humans in general are pretty shitty That's a sentiment I never understood. I'm not to deny your feelings, or claim that my view is somehow superior. It's been my observation, however, that people are generally okay, leaning on a good side. (I think it says something that both Henry Rollins, the punk-rock icon, and /u/kleinbl00, a Reddit veteran, share this view.) It seems to me – and, again, I'm not to stand above anyone on this – that people often undervalue or overlook the good parts about others or humanity in general. Maybe it's genetically-dictated, the way we look at these things. I've always been an optimist and an idealist, despite whatever I've been through, saw, or felt. It just makes sense to me. I've seen people do some really good things to strangers, and it has always inspired me. Otherwise never clicked with me, though I understand where some of it's coming from, because I, too, felt parts of it at different points of my life. I used to be terrified of people (mostly because I was mortified at the prospect of disappointing them), which lead to me assuming the worst of those around me. I notice the same with my parents: both deeply dissatisfied with their lives and stuck in a rut, and both aiming low whenever they meet someone. Father is the "that guy who yells at the TV whenever their favorite team loses" sort of a person. Mother assumes deception whenever possible. It never appealed to me, that kind of an outlook, but I engaged with it when I was younger: perhaps because I knew little else; perhaps because I felt exactly as upset. Things changed for the better once I started engaging with more people. ("The better" being "a more positive outlook towards myself and others".) When I started seeing more and more of what people are, things gradually became clearer: people are... well, people: exciting, interesting, diverse, deep (even the ones that act shallowly), and mostly trying to do good by themselves, those they love, and the world at large – even if they don't know how to do it well. And it's not like I don't see the bad side. Some things infuriate me; some make me sad; some – a little more lonely. Even the people I admire are not ideal and have done things I don't appreciate. When I was a teen, seeing such a thing in an idol of mine meant losing all respect for the person, as if one flaw devalued their whole being. Now, when I'm older (24), I'm starting to see more clearly that people are not black-and-white, morally, emotionally, intellectually, culturally, or in any other way. We differ – and if someone stands out with the values that resonate with my own, that's... a treasure in itself. I see the bad side – but it doesn't overshadow the rest of it. Maybe it's because I see my own darkness with a certain clarity, and its presence in my life changes the way I see others. (What is light without darkness, right?) Sure, there are some despicable people in the world, guided by the perverse-yet-so-natural desire for power and control, in however many ways it presents itself. (Greed, arrogance, promoted ignorance, seeding mistrust and fear...) Sure, they do things that make many's stomachs turn – and that's just things we know of. Hell, even the "good people" you can think of are probably battling the same darkness, and maybe it's sheer luck – of their childhood conditioning or genetics – that keeps them from a less-moral path. (Jordan Peterson spoke a lot on that, and there are quite a few public figures that talk about similar experiences. For one, listen to Chuck Palahniuk on the Joe Rogan podcast: he talks about being outright evil, and maybe he has a reason to believe that.) But... it doesn't detract from the good things I see around me. It's similar to what got me through my existential crisis a while ago. I was stuck in a loop, thinking that since there's no "basic", universal reason for anything, that life is not worth living. Then I figured: I may not appreciate living, but I sure don't want to die (and I've weighed my options for some time there), so I might as well live more consciously, you know? For me, the same idea applies to the good in people: sure, there's a lot of bad things to look at here, but all looking at it does for me is make me more depressed, and I have ambitions that need fulfilling, so I might as well look for the stuff that makes me want to keep going and do better. Again: I'm not saying your, or any other person's, view isn't valid. I thought mine was worth expressing for the same reason yours is: because it may resonate with others, and maybe even shed some light on how they feel. I think there's a lot of meaningfully-good things in the world because we made them so, from the depths of our nature and from the basic passions that guide us everywhere. Looking at them makes my own passions ignite. In simple terms, that's what that is.
agumonkey 8y ago
I .. think we're not meant to.. think. We have a libidinal side. Purely emotional.. if you feel people are bad, express it, dominate their mediocrity so you feel satisfied.
ashwinaj 8y ago
Please travel around the world (alone or with family/friends); unfortunately we live in this bubble of tech, politics, 24/7 news cycle that it makes us irritable/depressed. I wouldn't say I'm depressed, I work at a startup so there's a lot of pressure (unnecessarily so). All it took is a 3 week vacation, some self reflection, talking to the locals (and realizing how insignificant our so called "problems" are in the larger scheme of things), realizing that we are so blessed. This for me was enough to get me to a less unhappy state and being more introspective instead of getting irritable and reacting to shouting matches. This sounds a cliched thing to say but it really works.
50 8y ago
I read this a few days ago, it might resonate with you, despite it seeming like spiritual jargon: https://prashantadvait.tumblr.com/post/180867077354/without-any-support-and-eager-for-the-attainment https://prashantadvait.tumblr.com/post/180867077354/without-... The main highlight, I think, is this: > The world is not the cause of misery, our perception of the world is. What we think of the world is the cause of misery.
- jvagner 8y ago
  "our perception of the world is" When: wanting it to be different than it is.
notacoward 8y ago
> Humans in general are pretty shitty, driven mostly by self-interest. Maybe that's true. Maybe it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Maybe it's projection. In any case, the real question is whether the people who say it are trying to make it at least a bit better or just using it as an excuse.

by avgDev 8y ago

tabtab 8y ago

Agreed. The average human is illogical. It's not easy for Vulcans to live among Ferengies. I don't claim to be "mostly right", but I do claim to use and be able to produce a logical train of thought for recommending courses of actions. I can write it out in detail if and when requested. However, few are really interested in a logical justification: they usually use office politics and their "gut" to decide. Sorry, but most guts are not very bright nor accurate in my experience. I've decided it's best to join them instead of fight them because humans are social animals above all else. But, it's not easy to transition at all. I think I was born on the wrong planet.

magduf 8y ago
If you live around people who resemble Ferengi (that's the proper plural form), then maybe you should look at relocating to a different country where the people don't share the attitudes of the Ferengi.
- mjevans 8y ago
  Tell me, when can we begin construction of a new utopia in international waters with emigration and citizenship requirements that are angled at attracting Vulcan-like types? What are your plans for getting world nations to recognize the sovereign authority of such a region and for being economically healthy over the long term? I've never run the numbers, but pre-napkin estimation makes me believe such ventures are too risky, expensive, and rife for scams from 'Ferengi' to be worth exploring.
  - magduf 8y ago
    What are you talking about? There's plenty of countries where highly-skilled tech professionals can easily emigrate to.
  - throwaway920 8y ago
    I have many friends in my current or other FAANG companies in Europe and most of them got offers to relocate in US. Believe me or not, a tiny percentage accepted despite the big increase in salary because they don't want in a Ferengi society. Perhaps my social circle is biased.
  - tabtab 8y ago
    Being a Vulcan type won't necessarily make you wealthy. Most commerce is based on the art of selling, not the art of logic. In other words, tricking people. The best products from a technical standpoint often fail in the market. Better and cheaper GUI's than MS-Windows existed in the 80's, but MS's marketing muscle steam-rolled them. If you are talking about "smarts" in terms of inventing new things in the lab, as I mentioned earlier, being right or smart and being logical are not necessarily the same thing. In my book, being logical is being able to produce a clear line of reasoning for a suggested course of action. The "givens" in the "proof" may be wrong, but at least the proof is correct using the stated givens. The debate should then be on the givens, not on the proof logic. For example, my suggested UI designs often make assumptions about what confuses end-users. I often don't have inspectable studies to justify such, and others are welcome to disagree with human UI interaction psychology. But at least my assumptions are clear, and I make a decent attempt to explain the steps user may take or think in based on my experience, such as inconsistencies between screens, or variances from other common products an org uses.
albertgoeswoof 8y ago
You think others are being illogical when they make decisions that don’t appear logical to you. However a more logical conclusion is that others are acting in a logical way and you lack all the information they have about the decision.
- tabtab 8y ago
  That may or may not be true, but I cannot tell because they don't tell me: they just do, and often get it wrong by my observation. It often turns out they over-focus on a few narrow pet factors. Good decisions require being curious: what are others' opinions on this, and if they are wrong, why are their opinions wrong? It takes debate to get to the bottom of thinking.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
sjjshzvuiajhz 8y ago
People are constantly constructing internal narratives to explain their actions. From the perspective of the narrator, with a life’s worth of context, those actions fit into the narrative in a perfectly logical way. From the perspective of others who lack that context, those actions can seem illogical. Maybe you really are more logical than the people around you, but on the other hand you can’t read minds - maybe you can’t simulate the brains of the people you meet with sufficient accuracy to reconstruct their internal logic.
- tabtab 8y ago
  I'm willing to share my reasoning and logic with anybody who asks, and will refine it if it lacks clarity. I enjoy having my logic tuned by other minds; it makes me even MORE logical to be challenged, even if it hurts my pride in the short-term. Others are not so open and don't want their thinking process challenged. I don't know why, other than pride, ego, or office politics. If you know why, please tell me. Don't be shy: share it, people!
  - sjjshzvuiajhz 8y ago
    We’ve never met, but from what you’ve said in this thread, it sounds like you have a low opinion of the people around you. You’re good at finding flaws. That’s a valuable skill, but when you direct that fault-finding toward other people, they will become defensive. It’s rarely productive to ask someone that was wrong, why did you do that? You may have steel skin, but for most people, that feels like an attack. The person you’re questioning can perceive in your body language and tone of voice the “he’s just another illogical idiot” thought that’s running through your mind. The basic instinct when faced with an attack is fight or flight. Productive adult humans have usually learned that diffusing conflict by disengaging works better than fighting back. This means that you are unlikely to get the answer that you are looking for. This doesn’t mean you can’t question people and find out why they do what they do! The importing thing is to be nice about it. Don’t think: I wonder if this illogical idiot can come up with an explanation for his bullshit? Think: It seems like this thing X Bob made contributed to a problem with thing Y and that’s making me angry at Bob - but I bet Bob thought a lot about thing X when he made it, but he didn’t think about thing Y, and now he knows thing Y is broken and he feels guilty about it. Why don’t I ask him about what he likes about working on X so I can appreciate the good ideas he had, and maybe tell him a little about what I like about how Y works so he knows not to break it next time. Communication is hard. It requires two brains that are full of different memories and habits to sync with one another. You really have to want to understand the other person. I’d go further and say you need to care about them, and know what they care about, for your interactions with them to make sense and be satisfying for the both of you. I’ve found that intentionally caring about the people around me improves my relationships with those people and makes life more enjoyable.
tunap 8y ago
Fellow martian here. You may get some satisfaction from reading Khaneman's "Thinking Fast & Slow". Most everyone is BSing themselves. As to the 'why?', Sagan's "Demon Haunted World" lays it out pretty succinctly. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Demon-Haunted_World https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Demon-Haunted_World

platz 8y ago

s/tech/business ?

8ytecoder 8y ago
Tech industry as discussed in HN is very different from "tech". I have struggled to define exactly what it means but the typical companies include Google, FB, Pinterest, Airbnb, Uber and the like. They don't necessarily have to be in Silicon Valley / Bay Area but they all share a certain commonality irrespective of what domain they operate on.

smaddox 8y ago

I used to think like this. Then I read "12 Rules for Life" by Jordan Peterson and "Daring Greatly" by Brene Brown a few times, and I realized I was making an implicit choice to see the world that way, and that it is a completely counter productive viewpoint. A shift in perspective can change everything.

kelvin0 8y ago
I think smaddox makes a good point, I don't get the downvotes. https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/comments/9eaqqt/what_we_can_control/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/comments/9eaqqt/what_we_ca... "The first is that some things are within our control and some are not, and that much of our unhappiness is caused by thinking that we can control things that, in fact, we can’t." You choose to change your mental 'model' and re-frame your perspective (not to be confused with burying your head in the sand). I don't consider myself as being a 'stoic' or evangelize it at all, however this mindset seems quite adequate in many of life's challenges.
- albertgoeswoof 8y ago
  Downvotes are probably related to Jordan Peterson
  - kelvin0 8y ago
    Really? I did not realize he was shunned on HN.
LeifCarrotson 8y ago
Didn't downvote you, but while I've heard similar recommendations before, that's not a reasonable response to existential depression. On the one hand, you're correct, one's outlook on the world does impact your mood. Humans are emotional and easily confused, and shifting your viewpoint can change your mood in powerful ways. Perhaps those books present a position from which to view the world that's useful in lifting one's mood, which shifts your attention away from things which are depressing and towards things which are uplifting. On the other, if there are genuine facts which are important and which cause me to be depressed, it is important to me in my core values to believe those things to be true, neither blinding myself to their existence nor incorrectly believing them to be false. Changing a viewpoint will not cause those inconvenient facts to become false: They exist, they cause depression, I am aware of them, hence I am depressed. I am willing to add facts to my worldview which are uplifting and counterbalance the depressing ones. I am willing to adjust priorities and weigh the importance of the depressing ones less and the uplifting ones more, in proportion to the degree that they are or are not important. I might be willing to cheat a small amount, and allow myself to lean my viewpoint slightly to the happy side of the correct position if that position is more productive, but there's a fairly low limit to the self-deception I can tolerate, even if it causes me to be depressed.

ryanstorm 8y ago

Your comment aligns with an old HN comment that I have saved that resonated with me: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16402387 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16402387 I'd also recommend people feeling this way to read The Happiness Hypothesis by Jonathan Haidt. It helped me.

technobabble 8y ago
Thank you for linking to the book, and the previous comment.
solarkraft 8y ago
Thanks for sharing this comment. I do have a bit of trouble with the last paragraph. Am I understanding correctly that the author claims depression is neccessary for building a better model of the world? I'm sure depression has caused me to think about things and get a better understanding of them, but is it neccessary? What am I currently building a better model of?
- guntars 8y ago
  In the beginning the author of the comment said that a broken model results in a loss of confidence which then prevents us from acting on that model and forces us to figure out a better one. They're saying that's what depression is - the downtime when you're supposed to play it safe and re-analyze the data and build a better fitting model. I can see how it can be better to not act on a broken model in case it could result in some harm, but it also stops us from gathering new data that might be important.
- watwut 8y ago
  When I had depression, I stared into the wall tired of everything. Everything was pointless and everybody annoying. Just about only thing I understood better was depressive state itself. It ended when I got healthy and the only inside I have is more understanding for depressive people.
everdrive 8y ago
Thanks for sharing this. I've found it really helpful. I had similar, but poorly express thoughts about depression for quite a while. I really appreciate this excellent theory and explanation.

amelius 8y ago

And if you want to be really depressed, switch from tech to philosophy, and in particular the branch that is concerned with the nature of consciousness.

etrautmann 8y ago
I'm curious why you find that depressing? Do you think the idea of lacking free will and consciousness as chaotic dynamics reduces agency or something else?
- epberry 8y ago
  Also curious about this.

kingsloi 8y ago

I just made HN account to reply to this, as I feel like I suffer with "existential depression" too. I had never heard of that before, so thanks for commenting. As I get older, the more I read, it just seems to be always doom and gloom. The obviousness that's occurring to things around us. I'm a natural born worrier anyway, but as I get older I think more about "existence". My wife and I plan to have kids, but then I'll lay there awake at night and part of me thinks, why? I don't think we're heading to a particularly nice place.

scruple 8y ago
Check out Factfulness by Hans Rosling. It presents a compelling case that many of us (westerners) misjudge the state of the world.
magduf 8y ago
Do you live in the US? That's probably a big part of the problem. Everything in the US is doom and gloom, and everyone in the US is horribly paranoid. People are constantly paranoid about someone attacking them, and kids aren't allowed to run around outside because "someone might kidnap them". People that do get a visit from the police and CPS for "child abandonment". If you're planning to have kids, doing it in the US is not something I'd recommend unless you can afford a full-time nanny. It's just not a country that's fit for raising children in any more. Other developed nations offer much healthier environments for raising a family.
- jki275 8y ago
  What "US" are you talking about? There are 50 states, all of whom have very different attitudes and values, and within those are thousands of counties, cities, towns, and unincorporated areas where nothing you wrote applies.
  - magduf 8y ago
    Most of those small towns and unincorporated areas are useless for someone who makes a living in the tech industry. It doesn't matter how nice a place is; if you can't get good-paying work there, it's not a place you can reasonably live. Face the facts: the tech jobs are mostly all in a handful of metro areas, where everything I said is completely true. And it's a completely reasonable assumption that the vast majority of people reading my comment work in the tech industry.

gabriel34 8y ago

I disagree, depression is a disease, not a worldview. One can be cynical/pessimist/whatever and not have this affect his day to day, impede him from achieving goals, paralyze him or bring him to suicide. People in bad situations can have positive, active, non-depressive reactions. One can also be depressed and not care two bits about shitty people.

0x8BADF00D 8y ago
There is a degree of correlation between circadian rhythm dysfunction (i.e. sleep disorders) and depression. Worldview is separate, but trauma is definitely an input to that function. The more trauma one has, the more likely they are to have a comorbid mental disorder.

coleifer 8y ago

In my head I refer to this perspective as "this toilet earth". And it's easy to get swept away by it. The antidote is in your own heart, and in the hearts of all people. An unselfish, hidden act of love. Taking actions that align with what we commonly understand to be good, kind and unselfish have literally changed the way I think and the way I see (most of the time, right?). I could never think myself into acceptance of the world, but by taking actions my perception has changed without any effort.

ganzuul 8y ago
When depressed you do good deeds and feel nothing.
- coleifer 8y ago
  Well, I wasn't talking about being kind in order to feel good about myself. That would be the same old turd (selfishness) just wrapped up in a nicer package. Like when I'm sitting on the airplane that's been parked outside the gate for an hour, my ass is killing me and I'm ready to go home and I start silently cursing everyone and everything that stands in my way -- YET, when I disembark, I still smile and thank the stewardess, and let the antsy types cut in front on their way off the plane. I go to bed with a feeling of dignity and peace.
  - ganzuul 8y ago
    Oh, sorry. Didn't mean to imply that. It's difficult to describe... - The archive unzips and the files seem to be OK but the checksum fails, maybe? You should feel good when you do good deeds, but there are other motivations to do good too. When depressed, you can process things like understanding enlightened self-interest, but the evolutionary reward system fails to fire.
    - coleifer 8y ago
      I didn't mean to contradict you. Speaking personally, I would go through these bouts of "trying to be good" and I could pull it off for a couple of days max before the mask dropped. I just couldn't ever stop judging, criticizing, blaming, etc. I love the analogy, by the way. Or, "I double-clicked it, it's right there! Why the fuck won't it open?"

adamnemecek 8y ago

I used to be a wreck, possibly worse than you. Irritable, depressed, in poor health. Eventually it got to the point where I just couldn’t take it anymore and I quit my job to work on personal projects and read. I would recommend it to anyone. My skills have gotten much better, you’ll get a chance to do the things you always wanted and you’ll be happier. Say what you will about Jordan Peterson but he’s spot in this interview (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Xc7DN-noAc&t=1h18m22s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Xc7DN-noAc&t=1h18m22s) Depression is related to boredom. Are you bored at work? Being busy doesn’t mean you aren’t bored.

tomp 8y ago

Wow, I rarely so deeply profoundly and strongly disagree with a statement. I'm fascinated by both how far humans have come, and how peaceful we've become. We haven't had a major war for decades, despite having more and better weapons. Capitalism has unleashed a revolution in technology and society. We're improving lives more rapidly and profoundly than ever, despite there being more and more of us. There are long-term visions and movements springing up all across the world (ecological, environmental, etc) and they seem to be gaining steam. We're reaching for the stars, and it seems like we might actually get there eventually. It's really remarkable of what humans are capable of, both on the micro level (every time I'm driving I'm surprised there's not more accidents, given how slow human reaction times are and how fast and near each other cars are moving), and on the macro level (a society with 7 billion souls, each driven by its own mostly-selfish desires (survival, reproduction, power), making progress and deals and working on causes, together).

Bhilai 8y ago
The western countries have not had a major war in a while, thats true but thats not the reality for everyone else. I'd recommend you take a look at pictures of war ravaged Syria and read about children dying of starvation in Libya. Surely some western countries have reaped benefits of capitalism and ease of life with increased influence of technology, but again that is not true for many other parts of the world. I don't mean to diminish the great work many have done and the overall improvement in quality of life for some but its not as rosy as say for a huge chunk of the population of the world which lives in intense poverty.
- albertgoeswoof 8y ago
  Progress is the reality for most of the world. War and poverty is much than it was ten, a hundred, thousand or ten thousand years ago. On pretty much every metric humanity is succeeding and moving forward.
- badpun 8y ago
  > Surely some western countries have reaped benefits of capitalism and ease of life with increased influence of technology, but again that is not true for many other parts of the world. I'd say some aspect of technology has got to be everywhere (except isolated tribes) - be it electricity, cars, medicine, plumbing, better seeds and agriculture equipment, cheap factory-made clothes etc.

ergl 8y ago

Your tl;dr is alarmingly defeatist. If you're in tech and feeling angry all the time, the answer is not to try meds, the answer is to get politically involved and change the moral bankrupty of our industry. If you're US based, check your nearest TWC (https://techworkerscoalition.org/ https://techworkerscoalition.org/) chapter.

magduf 8y ago
There's not much you can do in US politics if you're a techie working in the tech industry. Face it, you're probably not a highly charismatic person who has a chance of winning any serious election beyond the local school board. The answer is to go someplace else where you don't feel angry all the time.
- ergl 8y ago
  In the last year employee pressure has forced Facebook to acknowledge their cafeteria staff right to unionize, stop Google from building military tech and a politically censored search engine, drop arbitration for sexual harassment cases, get BuzzFeed to pay for time off for all the employees that it laid off. It's true you might not get far if your only goal is to get into office. Meanwhile, there's plenty you can do at a local level. Going somewhere else is only delaying the problem.
  - magduf 8y ago
    >Meanwhile, there's plenty you can do at a local level. Going somewhere else is only delaying the problem. Working at the local level isn't going to get you significant change very quickly at higher levels. Basically, you won't enjoy the fruits of your labor, but maybe your kids or grandkids will, if they stick around. Going somewhere else will get you into a situation you like better right away, and is only "delaying the problem" for the people who stick around, who you're leaving behind to deal with it. >In the last year employee pressure has forced Facebook to acknowledge their cafeteria staff right to unionize Facebook remains a real problem for society, but their cafeteria stuff can unionize... I don't see how this really helps anyone except the cafeteria staff, and certainly doesn't help the billions of people whose privacy is threatened by Facebook.

briancleland 8y ago

I would humbly suggest you look for historical figures who had a hard-headed and realistic view of the world, but who were also positive and healthy in their outlook. Their approach to life might suggest a way forward. We have a surprising amount of freedom in how we interpret the world around us. "Everything has two handles, the one by which it may be carried, the other by which it cannot."

User23 8y ago
> I would humbly suggest you look for historical figures who had a hard-headed and realistic view of the world, but who were also positive and healthy in their outlook For example, the Meditations: http://classics.mit.edu/Antoninus/meditations.html http://classics.mit.edu/Antoninus/meditations.html

dak1 8y ago

People don't act on perfect information. In general, what they know is what is personally relevant to them. Given limited information, we use shortcuts for making decisions, including what we believe to be best for us based on pre-learned models that are shaped by education, our peers, media, and culture in general. Often, our models our wrong. This can be manifested as racist beliefs and actions, as well as rejection of actual facts, among other outcomes. Of course, the outcome is also entirely possible to be a positive one despite the inputs being inaccurate or incomplete. Yet, despite our simple models and narrow understanding of the world, we, as a species, have managed to build friendships, communities, and civilizations. We have peered back in time billions of years, learned of our place in the universe, and invented pizza. It's easy to get focused on all the problems, because that tends to take up most of our focus — but only because we're constantly striving to improve and solve those problems. Sometimes these problems are social, collective action issues, built on incorrect personal models distributed across millions or billions of individuals, and they can take longer to resolve than many of us would like. But, looking at the arc of history, we trend toward progress. Therefore, I think the correct response to the human condition is one of hope. Of course, this whole experiment that is humanity could end tomorrow or next century due to a nuclear holocaust, GRB, climate change, superbug, or a billion of other existential threats. But until it does, let's marvel at the run we have had, and continue to subscribe to the mass delusion of hope that has served us well so far.

MuffinFlavored 8y ago

> before accepting defeat. What does accepting defeat mean in your opinion?

avgDev 8y ago
For me it is accepting the things as they are, and just getting on with life and pretending to be relatively happy to satisfy my SO. I generally try to help others, but I'm talking about bigger things like income inequality, healthcare costs of which I don't have any control over. I make enough money now, not to worry about those things but many people do and it bothers me.

sjjshzvuiajhz 8y ago

People do good things and bad things. If in the presence of a combination of good things and bad things, you focus on the bad things and the bad things dominate your subjective experience of existence, you are probably suffering from depression.

coldtea 8y ago
Or, you know, not all periods have a balance of "good things and bad things".
- sjjshzvuiajhz 8y ago
  Sure, if you’re sad because you’re starving in a drainage ditch, or your best friend just died, that doesn’t mean you’re depressed. But if your basic needs as an organism are met, you have great latitude to occupy your brain with thoughts that make you happy or sad.

jplayer01 8y ago

Every day I see people behaving in shitty ways, not giving any consideration for the people around them or the place that they live. It's like the tragedy of the commons pervades every public space in a city. Nobody feels ownership, nobody cares, nobody feels responsibility for their actions.

ganzuul 8y ago
From the opposite perspective, you have to limit yourself with how many things you can care about in a day. Aside from all the people living in ignorance and spreading the same, there is also a torrent of rotten luck. Many people do a lot of good, but for how much bad stuff is out there it is hard work. I'm glad to see kids in school are not being brought up to be as rotten as my classmates, and from listening to my parents they seem to say the same in turn. My grandparents say little about their experience, save for hints of savagery. Things are improving, albeit slowly.

coldtea 8y ago

>The more you know about the world and tech especially, the more you will get depressed, IMO, maybe I'm wrong. The problem is that you can't say that today -- depression has to be all about BS "chemical imbalances", and never about the sorry state of the world and/or people's personal affairs. Even something as simple as artificial light or enforced working hours, and commutes are nothing like people have evolved for millennia to live with -- even less so screens, sedentary work, constant barrage of psychological manipulation through ads and tv and social media, and so on. Add to that all kinds of crazy rules we impose to our lives, and societal pressures unheard of in older times (where the main concerns if you've made it to adulthood were mostly getting by with enough food), and its a wonder not everybody is depressed.

gdulli 8y ago
> The problem is that you can't say that today -- depression has to be all about BS "chemical imbalances" Really? I googled "what causes depression", first link: "It's often said that depression results from a chemical imbalance, but that figure of speech doesn't capture how complex the disease is. Research suggests that depression doesn't spring from simply having too much or too little of certain brain chemicals. Rather, there are many possible causes of depression, including faulty mood regulation by the brain, genetic vulnerability, stressful life events, medications, and medical problems. It's believed that several of these forces interact to bring on depression." https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/what-causes-depression https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/what-causes-dep...
- coldtea 8y ago
  >Really? I googled "what causes depression", first link So, even the first link agrees that "it's often said". Now add how many times depression is treated immediately with drugs as a physiological disease of the individual.
ip26 8y ago
FWIW mild happiness, a six or seven on a scale of ten, seems to be the default human condition whether they live in a palace or a mud hut. So it's not hard to imagine something unusual might be going on if you personally report a two out of ten.

kempbellt 8y ago

This resonates with me quite a bit. Some food for thought, as I have become more aware of this in my own life over the past year. I've also touched on this in past comments, but it might be worth re-mentioning. I spent a week in the hospital last year (then 2 weeks in out-patient therapy), after having a nervous breakdown - related to deep depression, some suicidal thoughts, and high anxiety. Also, for a better picture of the week I was in the hospital. I wasn't bedridden, attached to an IV or anything. I was able to wander around. Hang out with other patients. Play board games. Engage in social activities. Etc. During that week, I didn't have my phone, and I rarely interacted with technology, besides watching some TV in the evening in a large room with other people. Even that was socially engaging, because we would all laugh together, and some people would comment on things in the movie or TV. I came to a better understanding of what was really triggering my depression. My lifestyle, as a dedicated programmer, was killing me slowly. I would wake up, workout for a bit, and then go to work behind a desk. Where I sit (and stand occasionally) for 8 or so hours per day. Doing almost nothing physically engaging, and socializing at arms length via Slack, email, or Github comments. Sure, I get lunch with people sometimes. Sure, I go for walks throughout the day. But the work I do is not physically or socially engaging. It's very antisocial, actually. What has really saved my mind lately has been learning to snowboard. It's physically engaging. Social too, if you go with people - though you'll likely chat with people on chair lifts or in the lodges. It's painful to learn (I broke my tailbone day 1). But it is absolutely worth it. When I'm up on the mountain, I literally CANNOT think about work. If I do, I crash immediately. Even better, as I go through the work week, I look forward to my weekends where I can get up on the mountain, and even occasionally I take a "powder day" if I need to. As a result, I'm happier. I'm a more productive employee at my job. I get along with my coworkers better, and I am less depressed in general. My 2 cents. Hope it helps. On another note. More people deal with this than you may realize. Just look around you. If you're feeling down, or depressed, you don't have to keep it to yourself. When I got back to work after my "forced vacation" in the hospital, a coworker asked me if I was okay and what happened. I mentioned that I had been very depressed, and immediately got a hug. I was like "Oh shit... I didn't realize I worked with actual humans until now" Also... vitamin D works wonders

jjtheblunt 8y ago

I wonder if aerobic exercise, even just a little, would have beneficial side effects. for some, myself included, it tends to cause physical side effects not likely endorphin release that just feels frivolous, like being a playing kid.

ozzyman700 8y ago

>Humans in general are pretty shitty, driven mostly by self-interest. Water takes the path of least resistance, Humans take the path of least expected effort expenditure to accomplish their desires Both are just doing as nature does, being themselves. Why be sad that every person will do the least amount of work to satisfy their desires, when it is an inevitability, but your sadness is not.

kempbellt 8y ago
I have to say, this is the best way I've seen this explained. And it takes no sides. Good comment
- ozzyman700 8y ago
  Thank you for your kind words. My words were mildly plagiarized from Henry George, author of Progress and Poverty. He is where the idea of people fulfilling their desires with the minimum exertion came from in my comment. I also love myself some stoic reading which ties in nicely with Mr. George's theory of minimum effort. Progress and Poverty is a great book and I am constantly stopping and thinking how well supported his ideas are.
falcolas 8y ago
Not all humans. That’s the big kicker for me. A lot of the shit is being generated by a minority, and there is another minority who are genuinely good people That, IMO, makes it harder to accept the fact those who do generate the shit are also “a natural part of humankind”.
agumonkey 8y ago
Except we're supposed to be intelligent. Early on in my life I felt something, I never get angry at nature, no matter harmful, but disappointment by other beings hurts deeply. Nature doesn't pretend to choose, it just is. That made me a lot more at ease with objects than people.
- MarsAscendant 8y ago

thisisit 8y ago

I was in the same place sometime ago. There are still days,like today, when I regress but slowly taking that into stride. Here's what has helped: 1. Cut down on the habit of "knowing" more. Nothing happens if I skip news and tech for a day or two. 2. Meditation - I started with Calm app but then moved to Insight timer and now I do it with music alone. 3. Add a hobby in life. I took up reading big time. Mainly some light fiction and YA books.

gotocake 8y ago
Same experiences for me. I cut waaaaay down on news, cut out almost all TV news except for banal stuff, and in general stopped studying massively depressing topics that I was unsuited, unwilling, or unable to help solve. I’m still saddened by plenty of things, just not depressed. I also try to eat well, get plenty of sleep and exercise, and make sure not to drop social time. All told I think th biggest difference between depressed-me, and me today is that I’ve divested myself of the illusion of control.

SolaceQuantum 8y ago

Follow up query: Why is it depressing to acknowledge that the world we know is a slow calamity of a thousand imperfections? (Context: I was distressed as a child (teens) about the above, but in my mid-twenties I have grown at peace with the knowledge of the world's many imperfections and inhumanitarian humanity. I'm still very young, I know this, so what am I missing here? Widsom is appreciated.)

zzzcpan 8y ago
It's not depressing to acknowledge anything, maybe even the opposite. Understanding why things are the way they are might help you stay at peace.
- SolaceQuantum 8y ago
  I guess I'm confused because I can't understand what is depressing about an increasingly dire worldview. I'm attributing this to my age right now, and would like wisdom in the matter.

MarsAscendant 8y ago

> Humans in general are pretty shitty That's a sentiment I never understood. I'm not to deny your feelings, or claim that my view is somehow superior. It's been my observation, however, that people are generally okay, leaning on a good side. (I think it says something that both Henry Rollins, the punk-rock icon, and /u/kleinbl00, a Reddit veteran, share this view.) It seems to me – and, again, I'm not to stand above anyone on this – that people often undervalue or overlook the good parts about others or humanity in general. Maybe it's genetically-dictated, the way we look at these things. I've always been an optimist and an idealist, despite whatever I've been through, saw, or felt. It just makes sense to me. I've seen people do some really good things to strangers, and it has always inspired me. Otherwise never clicked with me, though I understand where some of it's coming from, because I, too, felt parts of it at different points of my life. I used to be terrified of people (mostly because I was mortified at the prospect of disappointing them), which lead to me assuming the worst of those around me. I notice the same with my parents: both deeply dissatisfied with their lives and stuck in a rut, and both aiming low whenever they meet someone. Father is the "that guy who yells at the TV whenever their favorite team loses" sort of a person. Mother assumes deception whenever possible. It never appealed to me, that kind of an outlook, but I engaged with it when I was younger: perhaps because I knew little else; perhaps because I felt exactly as upset. Things changed for the better once I started engaging with more people. ("The better" being "a more positive outlook towards myself and others".) When I started seeing more and more of what people are, things gradually became clearer: people are... well, people: exciting, interesting, diverse, deep (even the ones that act shallowly), and mostly trying to do good by themselves, those they love, and the world at large – even if they don't know how to do it well. And it's not like I don't see the bad side. Some things infuriate me; some make me sad; some – a little more lonely. Even the people I admire are not ideal and have done things I don't appreciate. When I was a teen, seeing such a thing in an idol of mine meant losing all respect for the person, as if one flaw devalued their whole being. Now, when I'm older (24), I'm starting to see more clearly that people are not black-and-white, morally, emotionally, intellectually, culturally, or in any other way. We differ – and if someone stands out with the values that resonate with my own, that's... a treasure in itself. I see the bad side – but it doesn't overshadow the rest of it. Maybe it's because I see my own darkness with a certain clarity, and its presence in my life changes the way I see others. (What is light without darkness, right?) Sure, there are some despicable people in the world, guided by the perverse-yet-so-natural desire for power and control, in however many ways it presents itself. (Greed, arrogance, promoted ignorance, seeding mistrust and fear...) Sure, they do things that make many's stomachs turn – and that's just things we know of. Hell, even the "good people" you can think of are probably battling the same darkness, and maybe it's sheer luck – of their childhood conditioning or genetics – that keeps them from a less-moral path. (Jordan Peterson spoke a lot on that, and there are quite a few public figures that talk about similar experiences. For one, listen to Chuck Palahniuk on the Joe Rogan podcast: he talks about being outright evil, and maybe he has a reason to believe that.) But... it doesn't detract from the good things I see around me. It's similar to what got me through my existential crisis a while ago. I was stuck in a loop, thinking that since there's no "basic", universal reason for anything, that life is not worth living. Then I figured: I may not appreciate living, but I sure don't want to die (and I've weighed my options for some time there), so I might as well live more consciously, you know? For me, the same idea applies to the good in people: sure, there's a lot of bad things to look at here, but all looking at it does for me is make me more depressed, and I have ambitions that need fulfilling, so I might as well look for the stuff that makes me want to keep going and do better. Again: I'm not saying your, or any other person's, view isn't valid. I thought mine was worth expressing for the same reason yours is: because it may resonate with others, and maybe even shed some light on how they feel. I think there's a lot of meaningfully-good things in the world because we made them so, from the depths of our nature and from the basic passions that guide us everywhere. Looking at them makes my own passions ignite. In simple terms, that's what that is.

agumonkey 8y ago

I .. think we're not meant to.. think. We have a libidinal side. Purely emotional.. if you feel people are bad, express it, dominate their mediocrity so you feel satisfied.

ashwinaj 8y ago

Please travel around the world (alone or with family/friends); unfortunately we live in this bubble of tech, politics, 24/7 news cycle that it makes us irritable/depressed. I wouldn't say I'm depressed, I work at a startup so there's a lot of pressure (unnecessarily so). All it took is a 3 week vacation, some self reflection, talking to the locals (and realizing how insignificant our so called "problems" are in the larger scheme of things), realizing that we are so blessed. This for me was enough to get me to a less unhappy state and being more introspective instead of getting irritable and reacting to shouting matches. This sounds a cliched thing to say but it really works.

50 8y ago

I read this a few days ago, it might resonate with you, despite it seeming like spiritual jargon: https://prashantadvait.tumblr.com/post/180867077354/without-any-support-and-eager-for-the-attainment https://prashantadvait.tumblr.com/post/180867077354/without-... The main highlight, I think, is this: > The world is not the cause of misery, our perception of the world is. What we think of the world is the cause of misery.

jvagner 8y ago
"our perception of the world is" When: wanting it to be different than it is.

notacoward 8y ago

> Humans in general are pretty shitty, driven mostly by self-interest. Maybe that's true. Maybe it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Maybe it's projection. In any case, the real question is whether the people who say it are trying to make it at least a bit better or just using it as an excuse.