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Why does American law enforcement resort to such high profile raids if they know the suspect was dangerous. Surely they have better tactics to neutralize someo

• fipple 8y ago
  American law enforcement is populated with many people who want the violent intensity of real-life Call of Duty without the risk and sacrifice of joining the Marines. Storming counterfeiters with Bin Laden-level firepower is their way of doing this.
• pixl97 8y ago
  Sad truth. A lot of the officers enjoy raids and gun battles like this.
  • cookieswumchorr 8y ago
    what's even the point of becoming cop when you don't get to kaboom bang bang ratatatata!!!!
    • blattimwind 8y ago
      "Overcrowded prisons? I know a solution! ratatatatatata U-S-A U-S-A U-S-A" -- Homer Simpson
• aedocw 8y ago
  American law enforcement agencies spend hundreds of millions on equipment to support violent raids. There is strong incentive to continue to use the equipment so that they can justify the spending as well as justify larger budgets for more spending on similar gear. If they don't have high profile violent raids to point at they risk people questioning the armament and spending.
  • yyyymmddhhmmss 8y ago
    As an American who has seen blasphemous spending on similar terms at all of my workplaces, I technically believe this, but I have trouble relating or visualizing it. The whole thing is just so surreal in the context of law enforcement.
    • threwawasy1228 8y ago
      Let me help you visualize it, in the midwest i live in a town of ~80k people. The local police department just spent money on buying a armored bearcat assault vehicle.[0] At the city council meetings we were assured that the vehicle would 'hopefully never' need to be used. And people fought back saying that the there is no need for this in our small town. There are literal gun ports out the sides of the thing like a tank. They ended up buying it, and now that they have spent massive amounts of money on it, they are probably going to find some excuse to use it. For reference they bought the Military warzone model not the SWAT model. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenco_BearCat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenco_BearCat
      • maxxxxx 8y ago
        I think the glorification of the military they did during the Gulf wars to avoid a backlash like during Vietnam is backfiring now. Now everybody wants to get on the "military warrior" bandwagon. Cops don't just want to do boring police work to keep the peace, even in tech we now have "boot camps".
        • fouc 8y ago
          Bootcamps don't make me think of war/military though. It just makes me think of pushups and climbing over walls and crawling through mud under rope.
          • PeanutNore 8y ago
            And swabbing the latrines with a toothbrush
• SlowRobotAhead 8y ago
  I’m going to prefer an obvious planned and announced arrest that could go sideways to no knock nighttime door kickers where risk of issues like family, pets, getting the wrong house all together go way up.
• gammateam 8y ago
  > neutralize that means kill to a lot of police departments in this country, and its basically their policy and it is simple logic: if any officer in the pack unilaterally decides that someone is a threat, then they are justified in neutralizing them and it is expected. you as the target will never know which rationale which officer is using, let alone which department even responded and that department's current policies, let alone the path to becoming a non-threat under that specific guideline. but maybe your family gets a settlement. maybe.
  • pluma 8y ago
    On the flip side this also means if you're involved in high crime, you should expect the police to intend to kill you so you should prepare for killing them first.
• tomatotomato37 8y ago
  The 2002 Moscow theater attack shows gas-based raids are not any less dangerous
  • curuinor 8y ago
    well, they're as dangerous if you use carfentanyl. if you just use tear gas or something...
    • maxxxxx 8y ago
      Tear gas is pretty unpleasant and also the impact is very uneven. We did an exercise at military with a very low dose and there were people who were in serious trouble while others barely noticed. I think it’s more of a movie phantasy.
      • module0000 8y ago
        In the US(Army) we all have to do a gas exercise. We go into a chamber with our gas masks on and watch the agent being activated and released. Then we remove our masks, recite our name, rank, and serial number, then put them back on. It doesn't last long, but no one in my platoon "barely noticed". It was pretty debilitating - vomiting, coughing, snot smeared all over your face...etc. That said, there are a lot of different gas varieties, and I've only been exposed to that one.
        • maxxxxx 8y ago
          We did that exercise too. But we also did one outside which is more realistic. There the distribution was very uneven. I don’t think think you can find a dosage that makes sure the bad guys are incapacitated while not killing others. As far as I know this is also a factor why chemical weapons weren’t used in WW2. They are way too hard to control to be useful.
        • hnbroseph 8y ago
          when i went through the chamber it got me a bit, but for me it wasn't especially debilitating... at least in comparison to some.
• DKnoll 8y ago
  I'm not a LEO but it seems pretty obvious. Better to take him somewhere he's unprepared rather than somewhere he could potentially have laid traps or have an early warning system like cameras.
• maxxxxx 8y ago
  In this case they were actually dealing with a dangerous guy so I don’t see the problem here. But there are plenty of cases where they use the same tactics against people where there is no suspicion of them being dangerous. Example here : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berwyn_Heights,_Maryland_mayor%27s_residence_drug_raid https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berwyn_Heights,_Maryland_may...
  • lazerpants 8y ago
    Right, they needed to apprehend him in a low population area in case of a shootout, and apprehending him at home makes him more likely to barricade himself or possibly use explosives. Seems like getting him on the road in an isolated area was the best possibility.
    • saiya-jin 8y ago
      Indeed, a dedicated prepper which carries ar-15 around and starts shooting upon a first sight of sirens ain't somebody you want to ambush in place he had years to prepare in end-of-the-world they-are-coming-for-me mindset. Maybe he had some mental issues that might get better with proper medication, but then he most probably wouldn't be able to hold a steady relationship so I don't believe that. I am far from a fan of gun-ho US style of police force, but in this case it really seems dangerous person was removed from society.
      • Scoundreller 8y ago
        I’m impressed the same person was into counterfeit money, instead of gold.
• module0000 8y ago
  It's just "what we do" here in the USA. Sad but true. He's a heterosexual male with an interest in the "prepper" movement. The article says they were aware of his location before the arrest. It seems like it would have been more fruitful to use an undercover female asset who feigned interest in his interests. Then along with the arrest, you have a chance of more intel as he shares it with her.
  • pjc50 8y ago
    Unless of course he murders her.
  • acct1771 8y ago
    Stop watching mainstream television.
• deleted 8y ago
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• chooseaname 8y ago
  Well, they train like they're military, so then they treat everything like it's a war.
  • loeg 8y ago
    They don't have anything close to the discipline of the military.
    • cf498 8y ago
      This is a major part of it. They get the military toys and just left to run wild. Even the most basic points like not point a weapon at someone you dont intend to shoot are missing completely.
    • hinkley 8y ago
      I think it's the expert beginner problem. They believe they have trained like the military, and treat everything like a war. I doubt many drill sergeants would agree that they've trained like the military though, and in these threads we occasionally hear from a few who very clearly don't. Last time I read one of these there was a guy ranting about the sad state of trigger discipline even on SWAT teams.
• pjc50 8y ago
  Even in the UK the raid would have been fairly large for someone suspected of being armed or possessing explosives. The usual tactic is the "dawn raid": https://www.itv.com/news/2017-06-05/fresh-raids-in-wake-of-london-terror-attack/ https://www.itv.com/news/2017-06-05/fresh-raids-in-wake-of-l... It's just that because firearms are so widespread the US does a lot more raids, so there are more to go wrong. And the US has no equivalent of HMIC or IPCC, so the standards are a lot lower.
  • lostlogin 8y ago
    In New Zealand ‘Dawn Raids’ were violent raids on alledged overstayers, mainly Samoan or Togan. A grim period. https://nzhistory.govt.nz/culture/the-1970s/1976 https://nzhistory.govt.nz/culture/the-1970s/1976
• pluma 8y ago
  Not an American but I see two obvious incentives: 1) Finances. US police seems to hoard military grade equipment. Creating a high risk situation demonstrates the need for superior firepower because it doesn't even suggest the possibility of a less expensive/dangerous alternative. 2) Politics. Violent raids against armed criminals make for good optics. Escalating the situation demonstrates the threat of violent criminals while also demonstrating a strong police force, allowing politicians to appear "tough on crime". Additionally Americans have a more Puritan idea of how criminals should be treated (cf. capital punishment, jokes about prison rape, felonies being permanently banned from voting, etc). And a fairly well-established dehumanising "us-vs-them" mentality in media coverage and pop culture.
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• towelr34dy 8y ago
  Personally I'm surprised. Whenever I've heard of the arrest of high profile suspects , there is almost always some smart plan to get the person before they can engage in violence. This is done to get them to cooperate and get the network that supports the high profile suspect. I'm not sure why it went down as it did. But I know reality is complex, so I'd guess they were aiming for better but things went badly and they preferred to take him out for sure than let him get away. That would be my guess. That or someone wanted him dead, but the latter is less likely (stupidity being more common than malice and all) - There are probability other probabilities I'm not considering and the fact that multiple factors could be at play... it's hard to tell, the article was short on details.
• schmichael 8y ago
  Like any massive bureaucracy federal agents have processes and policies to determine what tactics are used. Night raids may pose a higher risk of alerting the target and allow them to flee or fight from a fortified position. A person like this is far more likely to have alarms, booby traps, gas masks, and weapons stockpiles than your average citizen. Don't forget that in the US it's relatively easy to get a wide range of extremely powerful weapons. Also the target seems to have known they were being surveilled and may have been fleeing. This may have been the agents last best chance. There's also confirmation bias at work: a raid isn't high profile unless it's big and flashy and potentially violent. You hear more often about violent raids than quiet arrests. Even if they're reported as frequently, quiet arrests are just less memorable.
• rtkwe 8y ago
  A night raid against a prepper seems like it's even more likely to wind up with a big firefight than this. Think about it they're then going into their house knowing they're stockpiled food and arms there. Trying to arrest them on the road avoids trying to storm their home and avoids endangering anyone else like doing it in town might.
• nradov 8y ago
  In order to ensure a conviction, law enforcement needs to apprehend the suspect and seize the contraband in the same physical location. Otherwise there can be room for reasonable doubt at trial.
• freewilly1040 8y ago
  A night raid against a preppier would be way worse. That’s exactly what these lunatics are “prepping” for. And tailing the suspect is incompatible with assembling a sufficiently concentrate force to have a decisive advantage