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There's a related blog post up on Medium by this same group (Working Washington) where they placed the same order, once with tip and once without, so people cou

• twothumbsup 8y ago
  > From my perspective Instacart is stealing from its customers and workers by doing this. This is 100% wage theft.
  • gowld 8y ago
    According to what ruling? It depends on the agreement between Instacart and delivery staff.
    • deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    • function_seven 8y ago
      The Fair Labor Standards Act disallows this type of agreement for ordinarily-tipped jobs. I don't know how the contractor status of Instacart drivers affects this. They're not technically employees. But the verbiage of "Tip" in the UI is a strong signal to the customer that the money is directly credited to the driver. It should bear no relation to their fee from Instacart. This is wage theft. A horrible agreement doesn't make it right, even if it is legal.
      • pkaye 8y ago
        The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) covers only employees, not independent contractors.
        • FireBeyond 8y ago
          Maybe so, but WA State Labor and Industries is not quite so "generous" to the gig economy, including their test for contractors, which is a bit more ... "rigorous" ... than some startups would like: Does the independent contractor bring more than their personal labor? Do they hire crew of their own or are they bringing other employees? Or, are they bringing heavy or costly specialized equipment? Are they an established business, working without your direction or control? Are they free from your supervision, direction or control? Is the individual’s business different and separate from your own? Is the individual’s service “outside the usual course of business,” or in other words, does the contractor do something different from what you do? Is the individual’s service being performed “outside of all of the places of business,” or in other words, does the contractor perform the service away from where you perform your services? Is the individual contractually obligated to pay costs affiliated with the location from where the work is controlled (usually its headquarters)? Does the individual have an established independent business that existed before you brought them on – OR – does the individual have a principal place of business that qualifies for an IRS business deduction? Do you have evidence to demonstrate that the individual has an established business? Does the individual have a principal place of business that qualifies for an IRS business deduction? Do you have evidence to demonstrate it? Is the individual responsible for filing a schedule of expenses with the IRS, such as would be part of a business tax return? Does the individual have all required registrations and licenses for their business? Does the individual maintain his/her own set of books and records that reflect all income and expenses of the business? This question is for construction contractors only: Is the individual a properly registered contractor? Note that this is not an "Answer 'yes' to any question to be considered a Contractor", it's a "totality" thing. (https://www.lni.wa.gov/IPUB/101-063-000.pdf https://www.lni.wa.gov/IPUB/101-063-000.pdf) "I subcontracted some work to a guy who has a contractor’s registration with L&I. Doesn’t that mean he’s not my employee?" Not necessarily. L&I auditors look at “direction or control” and other factors described on the previous pages. Because he is a construction contractor, all seven parts of RCW 51.08.181 must be met. And so on...
      • Domenic_S 8y ago
        The google term you want is "tip credit" -- it is common and legal federally and in most states to deduct tips from your hourly wage. Washington state is one of the few where tip credits are not legal. This is a very common setup in other pay structures as well, such as commissioned sales where you are paid a "draw" (such as minimum wage) and you don't paid get any commission until your commissions exceed minimum wage. What's more, the tip money did go directly to the driver; Instacart just decided to pay less. It's a pretty inhumane thing to do but on the face of it I don't see how it's wage theft. Welcome to the gig economy.
        • tareqak 8y ago
          How is this allowed by law? If you have to pay back your minimum wage before you get your commission then it’s not really a minimum wage.
          • Domenic_S 8y ago
            There are lots of kinds of draw, but this kind is essentially a loan against your future commissions (or in our context, against your tips). Here's some more information about how it works legally: https://corporate.findlaw.com/human-resources/legal-considerations-when-accepting-a-draw.html https://corporate.findlaw.com/human-resources/legal-consider...
      • muzani 8y ago
        Logically, independent contractors should get paid more, not less, than full time employees, because they don't get the other benefits.
    • lenticular 8y ago
      Not sure why this is being downvoted, as you absolutely are not wrong about this. They are independent contractors who entered into a contract just like a restaurant could contract with a food supplier. They aren't employees in the least as far as the law is concerned.
      • FireBeyond 8y ago
        Because Washington state is a little more rigorous than "did you enter into a contract? nope, not an employee!" than you describe.
      • nerpderp83 8y ago
        How and why are you so vehemently defending instacart when it comes to WA state law?
        • icebraining 8y ago
          Is lenticular defending Instacart? It helps no one - much less the victims - to inaccurately portray their legal situation.
        • lenticular 8y ago
          I'm not defending Instacart, I'm just pointing out legal realities. Many folks in this thread are severely mistaken about employment law. Just because something is morally wrong doesn't mean its illegal. I'm from Washington as well. I know a decent amount about employment law here.
  • dhimes 8y ago
    Yep. They need to pay reimburse those workers with a penalty fee tacked on.
    • Gibbon1 8y ago
      Same rules for should apply to wage theft as ordinary theft, more than $950 and it's a felony.
      • lenticular 8y ago
        This isn't wage theft since they are independent contractors. It's more like a company stiffing a supplier. More of a civil than criminal matter. Of course, these folks wouldn't have the resources to sue anyway, even if they weren't bound by binding arbitration.
        • aqme28 8y ago
          > More of a civil than criminal matter I think the question though is _why_ is that? If I steal $950 from someone then it's criminal, but if I refuse to pay them what I agreed then it's civil. It's an odd discrepancy IMO.
          • gbear605 8y ago
            For one, we probably don't need the police to come and arrest Instacart's CEO in this case.
            • aqme28 8y ago
              /shrug In this case they're doing something (questionably) legal but terrible. There are plenty of cases out there of outright wage theft. I wouldn't have a problem with the people in charge of those decisions getting arrested.
            • dingo_bat 8y ago
              Why not? If you stole $950 from a random guy on the street wouldn't you get arrested?
  • TomMckenny 8y ago
    They better hope there's no binding arbitration clause.
    • lenticular 8y ago
      The chances of there not being is approximately zero.
    • dsl 8y ago
      The workers may be subject to arbitration, but state regulators (who enforce employment law) are not.
  • wetpaste 8y ago
    I had a service industry job in texas that payed me around 2.50 an hour (iirc) and as long as I made enough in tips to cover minimum wage they didn't have to pay actual minimum wage. It's immoral as fuck to steal tips. I don't care if it's legal. If I'm a customer tipping the person a certain amount I want to make sure it's actually helping that person and not just lining the pockets of their employer, that's absurd.
    • Zimahl 8y ago
      That might be legal in Texas, but in Washington it's explicitly illegal. In the state, tips are completely irrelevant to base pay, all employees must get paid at least minimum wage as base pay. Instacart is going to get fucked very quickly by the Washington AG. This is as bad as Walmart not paying employees for overtime.
      • pnathan 8y ago
        The WA AG is a bit on the antsy activist side too: this is like a great poster case for the anti-gig-worker advocates. in any case, this is really awful for the poor drivers. I had no idea.
      • jacurtis 8y ago
        Especially because Washington's Attorney General is particularly fond of jumping on cases like this, particularly worker rights. But he is also fond of keeping startups in line. So this is a double-whammy case for him.
        • nerpderp83 8y ago
          I'd love to see someone at Instacsrt jailed for wage theft. They should have to pay back "the winnings" by 3x and fire the people involved.
      • lightedman 8y ago
        Tip taking is also illegal by CA laws. Instacart is about to really get nailed.
  • kevin_b_er 8y ago
    It will not matter. Washington state law does not apply. The sovereign state of Washington laws are superseded and invalidated by mandatory binding arbitration. The rights set out in the State of Washington's constitution do not apply, for they are superceded and ignored by mandatory binding arbitration. Any dispute will go to a monkey court instead.
    • dragonwriter 8y ago
      > The sovereign state of Washington laws are superseded and invalidated by mandatory binding arbitration. No, they aren't; binding arbitration is a venue for resolving disputes about the application of laws, it doesn't supersede the laws, and manifest disregard for the law is one of the few reasons for courts setting aside a binding arbitration decision.
    • sokoloff 8y ago
      Washington state law certainly does apply. The state did not sign a mandatory binding arbitration agreement. The employee/contractor may not have the right to bring suit against Instacart, but the state maintains that right. Thought experiment: could Instacart assault, kidnap, or murder a delivery driver and claim that arbitration is the only venue for redress?
      • dabockster 8y ago
        And even then, the worker does have the right to petition the court to review the clause itself. So the worker can still sue with the knowledge that it will be thrown out if the judge decides to uphold the arbitration clause.
    • FireBeyond 8y ago
      Washington state law is very clear that Labor laws cannot be superceded by arbitration clauses, and that employees, including contractors, cannot waive their labor rights.
    • 8bitsrule 8y ago
      This 'sovereign state' is the same state that uses a (regressive) sales tax to generate revenue, rather than an income tax. Maybe it'll grow up and be an adult state one day.
  • mannykannot 8y ago
    And while it is not as important an issue, I, as a tipper, feel that I have been defrauded when this happens (now that I am aware that this does happen, I assume that it has probably been done with some tips I have made.) To be clear: this is not an alternative way of looking at the issue, it is an additional indictment stemming from the practice.
    • TAForObvReasons 8y ago
      Switch to cash tipping. Tipping through CC or some other mechanism means at least one other party is involved and takes a cut. Cash tipping ensures the money at least is seen by the service staff.
      • dmurray 8y ago
        Statistically speaking, the main party missing out on its cut when you tip in cash is the IRS. Not really an ethical concern for most of us, but for those who do feel bad about this, you could just overpay your taxes every year by say 10% of what you estimate you tipped in cash.
        • lukev 8y ago
          It is the obligation of the tipped employee to report their tips as income and pay taxes on them. True, it's difficult to audit so sometimes they don't, but that's hardly my problem. The notion that you should overpay your own taxes to solve this is just bewildering.
        • jdavis703 8y ago
          The worker is supposed to report all cash tips. Since most of these workers probably pay little to no taxes, it really doesn’t harm the treasury, even if they fail to report.
        • kaslai 8y ago
          Recipients of cash tips must report the income to the IRS for taxation purposes. The fact that many people choose to refuse to disclose their cash tip earnings doesn't mean that I should bulk up my taxes to make up for their fraud.
  • deepsun 8y ago
    Many many places do that. I worked in PizzaHut in NJ, and they pay you less than minimum wage initially. Then you report your earnings, and if your tips + salary / hoursworked < minimum wage, then they will pay you the difference to match minimum wage. So you have incentive to report 0.0 tips. But then our manager at PizzaHut let go everyone who reported 0.0 tips (when asked why, he said they called customers to confirm we did receive tips). And that's not only PizzaHut, that's everyone doing that, at least in NJ.
    • aqme28 8y ago
      > when asked why, he said they called customers to confirm we did receive tips That would make some sense even. If a server doesn't get tips, that could be a sign that they are a bad server.
      • sib 8y ago
        Also, that they were lying to him. (Not agreeing with wage / tip theft, of course, but, as an employer, you need to be able to believe your employees.)
        • zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 8y ago
          There is no moral obligation to say the truth when it is inappropriate to ask the question in the first place.
    • javagram 8y ago
      Many states have what’s known as a tipped minimum wage which is different from the minimum wage. The tipped minimum is usually something like $2 vs the $7 minimum wage (these numbers are probably off now that so many places have raised the minimum wage to $10 or $12). Since in this instacart case they ended up paying out $.80 an hour it’s below even tipped minimum wage standards, although I assume there’s some dodge about claiming the employees are contractors to get around paying wages.
      • 8y ago
  • drewmol 8y ago
    It may be, Federal Law is more specific on tipping, allocation, role definitions in the restaurant industry, but not well expanded to define other industries. State law can further regulate . In spirit, a tip is an independant transaction between 2 parties and should be accounted as one. You must pay min rate for position (2.xx+?) and employee must make above fed/state min wage with tips once accounted, you must increase your compensation to make up a defecit between wage + tips vs min wage. You cannot pay below a certain wage regardless of tip amount, or maybe that's only in specified roles. I'm not sure.
• deleted 8y ago
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• burger_moon 8y ago
  I love how even knowing the company is stealing from their employees isn't enough to get you to drop using their service. I'm going to send at most 3 angry tweets about this before I forget about it and move on to the next thing to be upset about today.
  • bargl 8y ago
    While I agree that the parent comment should probably drop them. This comment won't get them to stop. Maybe something like proposing alternatives, and empathy. We don't know them so let's not generalize them into the crowd of 3 tweeters. I use Uber from time to time. Knowing full well that they have some practices I admonish. I use Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Safeway, etc. I try to be a better consumer with products but it doesn't always work. I think we can approach this without the pitchforks and realize we all do this to some extent. The OP recognizes the problem and suggests they'll change their behavior. That's a win. Parent - good luck moving off of the service. It's hard to swap something you've come to rely on out, and good on you for recognizing that as a consumer you need to make a change.
    • tedivm 8y ago
      I'll drop them if it comes down to it, but if anyone actually read the link I shared it would show that what I'm doing is supporting the worker led action that is trying to make change. The workers themselves are asking people to keep using the service, but to only tip 22 cents in the app (paying the rest of the tip in cash) in protest.
      • bargl 8y ago
        I saw that and that's even better. Which is part of why I don't like people jumping on the shame bandwagon without knowing the full story. Thanks for clarifying. Good on you for taking an active approach to this and being thoughtful. Also - I think this is where the power of the unionization comes into effect. While Unions can be a tremendous blocker of progress I feel that the pendulum has swung too far the against them.
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• victor106 8y ago
  Same here. I’ve been using instacart since 3 years almost everyday. But this is it. I am off it. I can’t believe the greed that some companies go to, to take advantage of people struggling to make ends meet. Shame on them
  • bargl 8y ago
    OP mentions the tip 22c and then the rest in cash to show instacart they shouldn't be doing this. I think it's a fair approach to see if they can be persuaded to make the right call.
    • ddingus 8y ago
      That works, until it doesn't. They are extremely likely to make another, more subtle bad call. People who think this is OK can be very difficult to motivate.
  • bonestamp2 8y ago
    Same. I just tried to cancel my membership but the link isn't working. I contacted customer service to get a working URL and I will report back here when I receive it.
• clairity 8y ago
  yes, please always tip in cash for any service. there's no reason the business needs to be a middleman there.
• sneak 8y ago
  It is important to be tipping in cash to begin with. Anyone doing unskilled labor and getting tips is not likely in a position to be able to afford the income tax on those tips. Always tip in cash.
  • xref 8y ago
    Breezing past your suggestion that workers should do some tax fraud, not reporting your tips also lowers your social security earnings which is going to lower your payouts as well.
    • glangdale 8y ago
      ... it's been a while since I've been in the USA, but isn't the Earned Income Tax Credit still a thing? That might also show up if you're not earning that much...
    • sneak 8y ago
      Anyone who is doing an unskilled job that receives some component of their tips in cash is already “do[ing] some tax fraud”. Perhaps I am projecting my familiarity with the food service industry onto others; if you were not aware, this is the overwhelming norm with a rate of occurrence approaching 100%. If you are working a laborious job and you get cash tips, they go into your pocket. Full stop. To assert otherwise is to be simply unaware of the realities. No one scraping by with cash tips is summing them for their 1040. No one.
      • jki275 8y ago
        Not everyone. I agree with you that it's very common, but an guarantee you from experience it's not 100%.
  • jawns 8y ago
    Keep in mind that if they're not earning much, they're probably not paying any income tax at all, and until they're earning at least $38,700, the most they'll be taxed on their taxable income is 12%. I don't think that supporting tax evasion should be a primary reason for tipping in cash. But there are other reasons why tipping in cash is a good idea, such as making sure that the money actually goes to the worker, and knowing that they'll have immediate access to it, rather than having to wait until their next paycheck.
• tlrobinson 8y ago
  > Some of us have seen wages lowered by 30–40% overall. I think this a danger of contracting for VC-backed "gig economy" services like Instacart and Uber. They often subsidize the cost of the service using funding (billions, in the case of Instacart and Uber) in order to quickly attract customers and workers, then reduce the subsidies once they are established. It's not right, but at this point gig economy workers should expect it and plan accordingly.
• paulie_a 8y ago
  I've used it a half dozen times. The quality of has gone way down. The first time was amazing with the shopper suggesting a combo that was not only better but cheaper. And it was delivered an hour and a half later. Now it seems they skip items, replace it without asking and the earliest delivery is tomorrow. And the produce has a lot to be desired. It'll last two days and already looks crappy on delivery. I think they are in such a rush they just grab whatever. The best thing for any app service, keep 20 in singles and just tip cash. I honestly don't know how the app tipping works but I have a feeling the full amount isn't going to the person.
• MisterTea 8y ago
  > At a minimum I'm going to be tipping in cash. Do the right thing. Take a stand for human decency and make a compromise by closing your instacart account now. Absorb the inconvenience and do your own shopping. And make sure to tell instacart to (insert profanity of choice) if you can while closing your account. That behaviour is low down and dirty. Shady craigs list used car dealer level stuff. I just walked three blocks in the rain to the local grocery store to pick up stuff to make dinner and food for tomorrow. Not like I was jumping for joy and made a dash for the door. I didn't want to, but I did. That's life.
  • Dylan16807 8y ago
    You didn't explain why that's "the right thing". Making sure the worker is paid well is the most important part. It's also possible that instacart will lose money on the sales where they can't scam tips; that means you can use the service and pay the worker well and punish instacart and increase the incentive for them to change their policy.
    • noddingham 8y ago
      Respectfully, I think you're being a bit naive. At the moment, the evidence points to Instacart _not_ being the kind of company that will respond to "incentive to change policy", but that they _are_ a company that will commit wage theft. Pull the ripcord, delete accounts, tank all the metrics (MRR/DAU/WAU/MAU), and force the company to change or collapse. Subtle hints won't be effective here, as the response their community support indicates.
    • eeeeeeeeeeeee 8y ago
      This is basically the argument for removing the minimum wage entirely. Some money is better than no money, right? I'd prefer not to live in that dystopia. Or we can just make it very clear that companies that engage in outright wage theft should be put out of business, so no other business ever tries it in the future.
      • Dylan16807 8y ago
• foobiekr 8y ago
  Doordash too, apparently: https://notipdoordash.com/ https://notipdoordash.com/ I've tipped a lot on Doordash. I feel ripped off. My company regularly used Doordash for years and made a point of tipping on orders. Crazy.
  • jv22222 8y ago
    Argh! I'll be closing my DoorDash account right now and also sending that website to anyone I know who uses DoorDash.
    • foobiekr 8y ago
      I used the support form to request a full refund of the component of all tips that I’ve made that were used to offset DoorDash’s expenses. I doubt they’ll do anything but close the case but it’s wirth the annoyance. I tried to find a way to close the account but there does not seem to be one.
      • jv22222 8y ago
        The reason it pisses me off so much is I have used them like, 3+ times a week for 2 years, and every time I felt good about tipping which of course now feels... well, not good.
        • foobiekr 8y ago
          I feel exactly the same about it, albeit weekly for 3ish years.
      • brianpgordon 8y ago
        If you go to support and search for how to cancel your account, they tell you to file a support request asking for your account to be closed. So you did the right thing. I wish I had thought to ask for a refund of tips too, but I already sent my support request.
      • nshepperd 8y ago
• the_clarence 8y ago
  I think this is a good step towards de-incentivizing people to tip for everything.
• dogweather 8y ago
  100%. I expect a class action suit from consumers.