12 ms·

When you can't make a laptop with reliable screens or keyboards, or an iMac lineup that has CPU's 2 generations behind.. Maybe it's time to shut down the stupid

• saagarjha 8y ago
  > Maybe it's time to shut down the stupid vanity projects and focus on your core business instead? What is the "vanity project" in this case? I think it's pretty clear that Mac sales won't last forever, and it's not like Apple is strapped for cash and can't afford to pay for both teams.
  • bonestamp2 8y ago
    I assume he's talking about the car project. It seems like they now have fewer than 1000 engineers on that project, so I can't imagine what they're doing with that few engineers. That would be pretty small scope in the auto sector. There's one large automaker I consult for and they've got more people than that just working on software they use internally. So, in scale, it might seem like a vanity project, but Apple obviously knows something we don't. For example, Tesla hired a couple of chip engineers from Apple and designed their own chip (to replace the NVidia gpu they were using). Maybe Apple has something unique in the pipeline that would be applicable to machine vision or something else useful to cars and it makes sense to market that to OEMs (I highly doubt they're building an entire car with so few engineers, makes more sense that they would be supplying a component and/or software).
    • saagarjha 8y ago
      > It seems like they now have fewer than 1000 engineers on that project I believe Apple has significantly more employees disclosed on this project than that. This is clearly not a "vanity project".
      • bonestamp2 8y ago
        I agree, like I said... even if it was less than 1000 they know something we don't (so I don't think it's a vanity project).
• leesec 8y ago
  Apple has 250 billion dollars at their disposal. They can obviously have multiple efforts running in parallel.
  • daveFNbuck 8y ago
    This would be more obvious if I weren't reading it on a brand new faulty MacBook Pro screen.
  • iagooar 8y ago
    They have the money - but do they have enough high-profile people to run all those efforts?
  • rurban 8y ago
    Yes, but obviously they cannot fix the more urging problems in their core business: Keyboards, laptop CPU's and memory, macOS development. It's a desaster area every developer working with their products wants to leave as soon as possible. And why should I trust them with an iPhone or car then, when the simpliest products were run into the ground.
    • npunt 8y ago
      Macs aren't their core business. You may think they should be, but they aren't.
    • Twisell 8y ago
      Anything baking up your old school Apple is doomed rant? Swift is a huge and thankless work totally invisible to the userbase and heavily targeted to improve development on Mac/iOS. You just can’t brush it off to fit your narrative.
      • greedo 8y ago
        APFS is also a big investment in replacing HFS+.
    • matthewmacleod 8y ago
• culturestate 8y ago
  Apple makes the products Apple wants to make; that those product choices might not align with everyone's preferences (I'm pretty happy with my 2018 MBP, for instance) doesn't mean the company can't walk and chew gum at the same time. Particularly when they make $200 billion per year in revenue.
  • pentae 8y ago
    Well thats my point - it seems that they can't chew gum and walk at the same time. If they could, we'd have Macs that are updated to the latest gen hardware in a reasonable amount of time, and issues like the faulty keyboard would have been fixed by now after 3 years.
    • traek 8y ago
      What makes you believe the autonomous car project comes at the expense of Mac improvements, rather than being unrelated?
      • boyband6666 8y ago
        It will still take up senior management and board time. THis is something recognised accross corporate governnce - see recently GSK spinning off it's over consumer health and the counter portfolio of drugs, to focus on what it's core business is; novel pharmaceuticals. Yes you don't want to be a total one trick pony, but if you do everything, you do nothing well.
        • groestl 8y ago
          > if you do everything, you do nothing well. Sometimes that's true, but I think that most often, these kind of transactions (M&A, spin-offs etc) are the result of political gaming on top of companies, rather than driven by actual business or financial needs. Top managers play their own game very well, and at the end of those transactions usually there is a bonus paid out, no matter the results 5 years down the road. It's not as if verticals within a large company hadn't their own specialized staff, focusing on their own products.
• nostrademons 8y ago
  It reminds me of the Apple of the early 1990s. So many stupid vanity projects, some of which were actually pretty cool: Newton, Dylan, Copland, Taligent, OpenDoc, etc. And yet they couldn't succeed at their bread and butter of selling computers. There's no Steve Jobs to bring them back from the brink this time.
  • bonestamp2 8y ago
    Could you imagine what hell Steve would raise about 3 years of faulty keyboards?
    • michelb 8y ago
      The same amount of hell as for the issues that were happing when he had the reigns? And that we then still had to endure because they got ignored or not fixed in time?
  • culturestate 8y ago
    What precipice does Apple need to be walked back from? Certainly not the current one, where they rake in an amount of money roughly equal to the GDP of Luxembourg in a single quarter.
    • nostrademons 8y ago
      Money is a lagging indicator for product quality. When a company's built up a strong brand, it can take years (or sometimes decades - witness Sears and Applebees) of bad experiences or outdated products before it starts to show up in sales numbers. But when it does, it usually ends up cascading rapidly, oftentimes faster than the company can react. Apple started its slide the first time around 1989 - that was when Mac models started proliferating, when System 6 came out, and when its first sales decline happened. Jobs didn't return until 1998. That's almost a decade in between. It's similar for other dominant companies - the writing was on the wall for IBM when Compaq & Dell started selling PC clones in 1983/1984, but they didn't need a turnaround until 1993. Sun Microsystems hit its zenith at the top of the dot-com boom in 2000, but its stock price didn't start sliding until 2007 and it wasn't purchased until 2010.
• ulfw 8y ago
  I have no idea why you're getting downvoted. If a company decides not to produce wireless routers (which were class leading) or monitors etc anymore, all because they're non "core" to a computer/mobile hardware company then I don't see how building automotive AI is core to a computer/mobile hardware computer company that has zero core competency in either car manufacturing or AI.
  • saagarjha 8y ago
    > I don't see how building automotive AI is core to a computer/mobile hardware computer I don't see why Apple needs to stay within the bounds what what you think their "core" products are.
    • newnewpdro 8y ago
      They don't, but as a public company they do have obligations to their shareholders which at least suggest they shouldn't be neglecting their core business.
      • usaphp 8y ago
        I think the shareholders are the main reason why Apple actually stopped making routers and monitors. There isn’t much money in those products, and shareholders wants to see revenues, they don’t care what products you build as long as they make them money
  • usaphp 8y ago
    They stopped making routers and monitors not because they are non “core” products, they stopped making them because there is not much money in it. You buy routers ones every 10 years probably, and margin is limited, but supporting them throughout this period is quite expensive. As for monitors, there is so many competitors right now, that it’s hard to make it worth building your own monitor, Especially if you want to win the market share you need to distinguish yourself from competition, and there is very little you can do to make your monitor distinguishable from your competitors. Automotive AI meanwhile is a future and they have to think about future with all the money they have now.
• baxtr 8y ago
  “can’t make” - that is a very general statement. I am quite happy with my MBP
  • itslennysfault 8y ago
    Post 2015? Maybe I'm just spoiled, but I can't type on them to save my life. I had a 2006 MBP and every 3 - 5 years since, but after a few months with the latest line I jumped to a Dell XPS running Ubuntu, and I never looked back. Had to find new tools and learn new shortcuts, but after a month or so I adjusted, and I never have to endure that hellish keyboard again. edit: punctuation exists.
    • baxtr 8y ago
      Yes, 2018. I have been using MBs since 2004. So I was very skeptical because of all the bad news I had heard. But since it is a company standard I didn’t have great choice. And I have to say: it is really a great product. It is fast, the screen is amazing, it is silent and the keyboard is just great (for me). EDIT: the worst MB I had was the white one... the case broke open, the color was yellow-ish in the end
    • skohan 8y ago
      I know I'm in a massive minority, but I actually prefer the new keyboard (minus the touchbar - that is a joke). What I really miss are the HDMI port and SD card slot.
      • jsjohnst 8y ago
        You’re not in the minority, it’s just the minority who hates the new keyboard also happens to be a vocal contingent here on HN.
        • deleted 8y ago
          [deleted]
    • pegasus 8y ago
• npunt 8y ago
  Uh... 2 gens? iMacs are on Kaby Lake which is last gen. Anyway, the iMac doesn't have Coffee Lake CPUs because they're barely any different than Kaby Lake, or even Skylake for that matter. Intel is basically rebadging CPUs at this point while they sort out their 10nm process. The main driver of a refresh would be upgrading the GPU and some connectivity options at this point.
• innocentoldguy 8y ago
  I must be pretty lucky. I've been using Apple products since the original iMac and the only problem I've ever had was when I dropped my phone on a rock and cracked the screen. Apple was great about replacing it for me too. Regarding CPUs, I'm personally much more interested in being able to run macOS on my computer, iOS on my phone, and tvOS on my TV and have them all work together in ways that make me happy. If Apple could add a car to that, I'd be thrilled. I'm always willing to try other options, but I've just never found a setup that worked quite as well for me. For example, I have a computer I built from parts from NewEgg and Nvidia about a year ago. It has a Threadripper 1950X processor, 128GB of RAM, and an Nvidia Titan V card in it. I used it for about a week and then went back to my MacBook Pro. The custom-built computer is gathering dust in the corner of my office. My point is that different things are important to different people.
  • aembleton 8y ago
    Why did you build a machine with 128GB of RAM and then not use it? Was there a specific task you built it for? Why didn't you just rent some instances from AWS?
    • innocentoldguy 8y ago
      Yes, I built it for a project I was working on. I planned to use the machine for development and maybe gaming afterward but kept going back to my laptop since it was easier to use. I hadn't really expected that to be the case, but that's how it turned out.
  • oblio 8y ago
    > I must be pretty lucky. > [...] > It has a Threadripper 1950X processor, 128GB of RAM, and an Nvidia Titan V card in it. Yes, you are, you're rich. An Nvidia Titan V card on Amazon costs about $3k!
    • innocentoldguy 8y ago
      Sadly, yes, which makes the wastefulness of it sitting in the corner that much more poignant.
• robin_reala 8y ago
  Core business in terms of both units sold and income is iPhones, not computers. Apple hasn’t been Apple Computer for over a decade.
  • frereubu 8y ago
    I see what you're saying, but given that developers have to have an Apple computer to develop for iOS and macOS, the computer lineup does rather underpin everything else.
• amrrs 8y ago
  If so, then the irony is everyone complaining of Innovation is dead at Apple. Lot of OS improvements, especially for the older model devices. But does Apple get appreciation for that or for Airbuds? And with multiple product lines, company can have multiple focus.
• jarym 8y ago
  I’ll add my pet peeve to the list: Sell me a £1k phone that can’t connect to the £3.5k laptop you sold me because the phone comes with a USB-A cable and the laptop only has USB-C sockets. This is precisely the sort of garbage Stveve was very much against yet Apple seem to now think ‘it’s ok’. It’s not ok. To the down voters, the fanaticism only emboldens Apple to become more mediocre. Think about that a moment.
  • GuardianCaveman 8y ago
    Besides the connections the software doesn’t work between those two out of the box. My mom bought 2k MacBook Pro from the Apple store and a 1100 Iphone xs and we got home and plugged it in to back up her saved backup and iTunes wouldn’t let us. I can’t recall the exact problem but the solution was downloading the latest software for both devices. Several hours later it was working but out of the box? So disappointing.
    • boyband6666 8y ago
      Was there not also a point where a new MBP with USB-C only, and a new iphone wouldn't even be able to be connected out of the box?
      • rutierut 8y ago
        Still the case unfortunately, had to go back to the store to get and adapter to connect my iPad to my Macbook.
    • thirdsun 8y ago
      That seems like a negligible issue. It's really not unusual that both device and software need to be on the same or latest version to work as intended.
      • baq 8y ago
        steve would laugh you out of the room if he hadn't fired you on the spot... (unless perhaps you didn't hold it properly.)
• zaphirplane 8y ago
  Apple is a very profitable company, with massive cash flow. I would love to know why their laptop lagges in hardware. Seriously can’t they hire 200 people to work on it or on iOS and really crush the competition
  • galenko 8y ago
    They lag, because it makes the laptops more profitable. Older chips cost less. They are crushing the competition, their profits show that and profits are the ultimate goal.
  • kamaal 8y ago
    >>Seriously can’t they The word 'they' suggests some kind of hive mind at work. In reality it's more like 1 - 2 people at the top making decisions. If those people drag their heels for ever, or just don't care it won't happen. The real question is why should they care. I mean even if you give them stocks, by the time they vest, they would have got their money. After that you can go work for whomever you like. So why should these people care?
    • saagarjha 8y ago
      > The real question is why should they care. I mean even if you give them stocks, by the time they vest, they would have got their money. After that you can go work for whomever you like. Apple’s executive team is not known for ditching the company the moment their stocks vest.
      • rajacombinator 8y ago
        No, they’re known for hanging out and collecting more stock while weighing the company down with their deep incompetence and indifference.
• sonnyblarney 8y ago
  The iPhone itself may very well have seemed like vanity project at the time. Cars are computers with wheels these days, and there will be to some extent a merger of initiatives. Steve Jobs did several BD deals with feature-phone manufacturers like Motorola before the iPhone specifically to learn and internalize issues from that space. When you're sitting on $100B in cash, your cost of capital is probably cheap, and existential risks abound. It makes a lot of sense to be working on trends which are nearly 100% guaranteed to have a massive impact. Since we know self-driving cars are coming one way or another, it makes sense for them to be there. In 20 years, 'MacOS' could be powering your car and other devices and we might have forgotten about this iPhone thing.
  • microtherion 8y ago
    > The iPhone itself may very well have seemed like vanity project at the time. It sure did, to some people: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/apple-should-pull-the-plug-on-the-iphone?siteid=yhoo&dist=yhoo https://www.marketwatch.com/story/apple-should-pull-the-plug...
• shams93 8y ago
  Somehow they manage to make their entry level stuff to higher quality, nobody is complaining about the iPad 2018, at their high end it's not just that people have higher expectations it's that their process is broken, they're churning out expensive, flawed devices.
• jrockway 8y ago
  I am pretty sure laptops (and other computers) are a vanity project for Apple at this point. They need some way for people to be able to write iPhone apps, and the history of Apple kind of makes it difficult to say "buy the latest version of Windows and use our Visual Studio plugin", so they make Macs. But I'm not sure it's a good business decision. The number of people that use a computer outside of work seems to be dwindling. Should probably focus everything on making sure they are using an iPhone, not something else.
  • bunnycorn 8y ago
    Yes, because Apple doesn't completely dominate the market of computers above $1000 or nothing... It's just stupid people like us that buy their computers... Stupid people like engineers at actual first tier tech corporations. First tier arts and entertainment companies and individual artists.
    • jrockway 8y ago
      The point is that that market is tiny compared to the people that buy iPhones. I also think Apple is doing good things on turning the iPad into a general purpose computing device. For my use cases (ssh somewhere to do work), it is way easier to manage than a laptop, and smaller. I imagine that as the product improves more people are going to make the jump, leaving MacOS in a weird place. (I switched from a Surface Pro 4 to an iPad Pro as my "laptop" and I am much happier. I still use a Windows workstation for everything that can't be done by ssh-ing to a Linux box, though, and of course prefer dual monitors and a mouse when I'm not travelling.)
      • bunnycorn 8y ago
        Of course it is "tinier", because the PC market (and Macs are PCs) is much smaller than the phone market. And has been shrinking since 2010... must be a coincidence as Apple introduced the iPad that year...
    • shaklee3 8y ago
      Source on the dominating above $1000?
• bunnycorn 8y ago
  Ohhh, that hate... Apple is the most reliable computer manufacturer of all, according to ConsumerReports actual statistics. Now according to BS fake news that is paid by Apple competition, yes, there are lots of problems with Apple computers (like 3 or 5 people that complained on Twitter), and nothing with Apple competitive products ever (unless it's a widespread recall like with Samsung...) Also, what's your problem? If you have any problem, Apple will fix it for free. It's called WARRANTY.
  • minikites 8y ago
    Reliability? They can't make a laptop keyboard that survives an encounter with a crumb and if you open your laptop too many times the video cable gets severed: https://ifixit.org/blog/12903/ https://ifixit.org/blog/12903/
    • bunnycorn 8y ago
      Wow! You really believe that a crumb can break a MBP keyboard? God have mercy on your soul. Really, is that the best that Apple competitors can do!? You are all ridiculous, there are MILLIONS of MBPs out there, must all those millions live in a enclosed dome where no dust can get in. Seriously, nobody has time for your anti-Apple nonsense, I don't know why I even replied.
      • maxxxxx 8y ago
        "I don't know why I even replied. " You probably shouldn't have :)
      • minikites 8y ago
        I believe it because Apple admitted it was true: https://theoutline.com/post/5052/apple-admits-its-computers-are-broken https://theoutline.com/post/5052/apple-admits-its-computers-...
        • bunnycorn 8y ago
          No, they didn't. Nowhere in that POS "article" the author justifies the title.