22 ms·

Son, as soon as someone puts their hands on you...

• _pius 16y ago
  I'm reminded of what Malcolm X said to the civil rights demonstrators: Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery.
  • Locke 16y ago
    I don't necessarily disagree with the original article or this sentiment. However, I have a hard time reconciling telling your child to stick up for him or herself when bullied vs "send him to the cemetary" or "As soon as he turns around, hit him in the back of the head as hard as you can. If you’re much smaller, pick up a hard object and do it." These are children and their judgement is not always the best. Do you really want to risk that your child kills another child by accident while following your advice? Will your child know how far is far enough? Is there a chance he or she might over-react to a situation that is not truly threatening?
    • angrycoder 16y ago
      I really think you are just playing semantics here. The quote wouldn't be nearly as effective if it read: "Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, hurt him just enough so that he leaves you alone - but don't kill him."
      • Locke 16y ago
        The quote is fine. I worry about this glorification of violence. The original article and this thread seem to be filled with adolescent fantasies of revenge against bullies past and future. I hope this is mainly internet posturing and bravado. I'm not sure every child has the perspective to recognize hyperbole. There are times when violence may be necessary, but that doesn't make it any less horrible, whether justified or not.
        • angrycoder 16y ago
          Well, that is the difference between the bullied and the bully, the bullied feels remorse after committing violence.
        • ErrantX 16y ago
          Yes, that is a problem. It is one reason I don't advise kids (that I talk to about such problems) to take this approach. One thing I actually disliked about the post is the way he has de-humanised bullies. When in reality the correct approach is to feel sorry for them - because they have all manner of deep seated issues. Not in a lovey-dovey way (which, he is right, is silly) but in an adult comprehending way. The act of your violence is a potential learning experience for them too. Too much vitriol and anger and they may come away harbouring deep resentment, and later come back at you with escalating violence. But a short sharp shock could teach them some important truths. For the most part, the really bad bullies I suffered at school are already failures in adult life. With the one exception of another bully who also got beaten up (not by me) late in the school system - he was dramatically changed after that and is currently one of the nicest and most successful adults I know (although there were other factors swinging in his favour). So sympathy, but not hippy-love. Violence, but not retribution. It is a tough balance.
        • dasil003 16y ago
          The "glorification of violence" is too intellectual a concern. It's an idea balancing precariously at the top of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. It's unfortunate that violence is sometimes necessary in school, but it is because bullying isn't taken seriously by the administration. Bullies spend all their time making trouble, so they get good at doing psychological damage and flying under the radar of authority. But the damage they are doing is potentially severe. Bullies usually have severe problems at home, and I feel bad for them, but they mustn't be allowed to spread their self-loathing virally by means of systematic low-grade abuse to anyone who is an easy target (ie. the weird ones, the free thinkers, the people who don't conform, and thus are more likely to bring something new to the world when they grow up). If administrators took this more seriously and started expelling these kids, then that would get the attention of their deadbeat parents, and violence would not be necessary. However in reality, school is like prison, and sometimes violence is the answer.
    • roc 16y ago
      Do you think the bullies know how far is far enough? Bullying escalates. If you don't trust your kid to make a judgment at some point, it's basically a matter of time before they get seriously injured themselves. I'd rather teach my kid to stick up for himself and have the mistakes happen at the level of "knocked out tooth/broken finger" than letting things escalate in the first place.
      • seldo 16y ago
        So your kid gets beat up. Then your kid beats up the bully. Then the bully comes back with a knife the next day. Or a gun. Bullying does escalate. Therefore, teaching your kid to escalate on their side as well just makes it happen faster. The solution to escalating warfare is to break the cycle.
        • chc 16y ago
          The point is that it only escalates when it's not deterred. "Break the cycle" is a platitude, not advice. What is involved in breaking this cycle, if not stopping the bullies?
        • jules 16y ago
          That's not the way it works in my experience. I'd also rather have it your way, but it just doesn't work.
        • siculars 16y ago
          > The solution to escalating warfare is to break the cycle. That is not true. MAD worked in the cold war. The solution is to let the other side know you will not go gentle into that good night.
        • invisible 16y ago
          The bullying cycle is this: bully on day #1 -> bully on day #365...repeat. I have witnessed people in school be bullied and them just ignore/deal with it politely and it didn't work for them until they freaked out and fought back.
        • sossles 16y ago
    • masklinn 16y ago
      > However, I have a hard time reconciling telling your child to stick up for him or herself when bullied vs "send him to the cemetary" or "As soon as he turns around, hit him in the back of the head as hard as you can. If you’re much smaller, pick up a hard object and do it." The second one no, but the second one is mostly an exaggeration for "don't be the one who starts fights, but be the one who ends them". Cemetery is probably a bad idea as it'll breed revenge, but going at it until they are physically unable to fight back is probably a good idea.
    • bena 16y ago
      Over-reaction is the only reaction. If you don't want the other side to escalate, take it there first and do it fast. If you are truly worried about escalation, then by induction, all fights are fights to the death because beating the bully "just enough" will lead to the bully coming back with more firepower. Lather, rinse, repeat until firearms are involved. So, you over-compensate. You do everything within your power to kill him and hope someone can stop you or they run away. If you don't take shit from anybody, people will stop trying to give it to you.
  • varjag 16y ago
    > I'm reminded of what Malcolm X said to the civil rights demonstrators: Malcolm X, the supremacist dude who had Nazis at his conventions, is a really bad role model for your children. Edit: why the downvote? He was supremacist, and Nazi connection is well documented: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_supremacy#Alliances_with_white_supremacist_groups http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_supremacy#Alliances_with_...
    • _pius 16y ago
      Your own reference refutes your claim. From the Wikipedia article: "In 1965, after breaking with the Nation of Islam and denouncing its separatist doctrine, Malcolm X told his followers that the Nation of Islam under Elijah Muhammad had made agreements with the American Nazi Party and the Ku Klux Klan that 'were not in the interest of Negros.'"
      • varjag 16y ago
        OK, but you don't object the supremacist part? Good, we are on the same page. Now, notice the "after break-up" part. Have a look at this photo: http://www.nationalgalleries.org/collection/online_az/4:322/result/0/63200?initial=A&artistId=1693&artistName=Eve%20Arnold&submit=1 http://www.nationalgalleries.org/collection/online_az/4:322/... She was doing an essay on Malcolm X, these fellas attended one of his conventions. The one in the middle threatened to make a lantern out of her (Arnold is Jewish). In her later interviews she mentioned that many people get really upset when they see this photo, and exhibition curators often objected to its inclusion.
        • _pius 16y ago
          OK, but you don't object the supremacist part? Good, we are on the same page. Um ... She was doing an essay on Malcolm X, these fellas attended one of his conventions. While remaining agnostic to your point, it's troubling that you keep citing references that don't support it. The caption on that photo makes no reference to these Nazis being in attendance at a Malcolm X rally.
• grannyg00se 16y ago
  This advice fails when it suggests to pick up something hard and hit a boy in the back of the head with it. That could lead to serious injury and I think would likely do serious long term damage to both young people's lives. I'm sold on the fight back attitude, but not with that level of danger. And that is the problem with the whole fight back attitude in general. You can teach it, but you must also teach respect for human life and how easy it can be to seriously damage somebody permanently.
• pragmatic 16y ago
  "This comment will be controversial, especially for North Americans and Western Europeans." No not really. It will perhaps offend the bizarre establishment that has invaded school administration. However, this is bully repulsion 101. If the system doesn't protect you, you must find a technique that does. Would we avoid school shootings,etc, if we taught our kids to stand up for themselves, don't let yourself get bullied? Real self respect vs the artificial "everyone's special" of today's thinking? Sidenote: Why is this behavior (bullying) tolerated in school? What other part of our culture accepts bullying as "part of growing up" or "just the way it is?"
  • kapilkaisare 16y ago
    In Maharashtra(India), laws penalize 'ragging' - a ritualized form of bullying freshmen in the first month of college. Earlier, ragging led to a few suicides, which in turn prompted the passing of the law. It does occur however; I have been ragged myself. Personally though, it didn't affect me as much as I feared it would.
  • endtime 16y ago
    I think it's either apathy or fear of legal retribution on the part of teachers.
  • wmf 16y ago
    Why is bullying tolerated in school? If we accept that "loving the bullies" is a sign of weakness that encourages more bullying, allowing the school to intervene is a sign of extreme weakness that encourages even more bullying whenever kids are out of sight of authority figures.
    • danudey 16y ago
      The problem seems to stem from the fact that bullying occurs out of sight of authority figures regardless, and that when children report it they're basically told to suck it up. I agree that children should learn to handle confrontation for themselves, but at the same time when there are chronic offenders there needs to be repercussions. If a bully picks on a kid and they fight back, the bully will move on to the next kid. If he keeps doing it, take him out of the system, expel him from school, or (optimally) find him some way of acting out his aggression, anger, etc. in a more productive manner. 'Fighting back' would soon reduce the school to anarchy outside of the presence of a teacher, but telling kids to deal with it and shrugging it off as 'part of growing up' just encourages the bullies by teaching them that they can do whatever they want, as long as they don't get caught.
• sliverstorm 16y ago
  I have never quite figured out how I'd teach my kid this. I never had to deal with violent bullies myself (even though I was totally a geek, I kind of made friends with skaters and druggies etc, and I later heard a lot of them respected me) so I have no life-experience with fighting back. Only time things ever came to blows, the other guy (who struck first) was 8-10 years older than me, muscular and a good 2-3 feet taller, and that is a fight you do NOT fight.
  • gte910h 16y ago
    Fighting with other kids you're locked into primary school with is vastly different than doing so as an adult. Fighting as an adult is pretty stupid and a good way to get a felony record.
    • sliverstorm 16y ago
      Of course. If you're referring to my second line of text, I was ~12 and the other guy was ~20.
• paolomaffei 16y ago
  This can also apply to the business world: As soon as some other company tries to damage you in an unfair way you are supposed to fight. But like for kids, the other guy can be just too big for you to fight back.
  • JanezStupar 16y ago
    Everybody respects a brave warrior, even enemies or especially the enemies. Even captured warrior. In WW1 and WW2 many captured pilots were treated with dignity - one of such stories: http://www.campking.net/WORLDWAR.html http://www.campking.net/WORLDWAR.html Or the notorious Douglas Bader escape: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Bader#Prisoner_of_War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Bader#Prisoner_of_War
  • dcbell 16y ago
    Ah, but it doesn't apply to the business world, that's the thing. What makes school bullying viable is that nothing you do matters---the effect of everything you do is delayed twelve years. Everyone progresses at the same rate through the institution, in spite of high or low performance. So if no one's going to outrace you (and even if they did, it would only be academically, which no one cares about it in k-12), there's no real penalty for becoming some poor kid's private nightmare. Not so much in the business world (and especially tech); while you're busy engaging in a dogfight with Joe Competitor, some third company is kicking your trash by spending money on R&D rather than winning a marketing/feature war. So it generally makes sense to avoid direct confrontation, because it slows you down.
• nhashem 16y ago
  I liked this post until he started talking about fighting the Chinese mafia and jump kicking criminals. At that point I wasn't sure whether his point was, "take your own bullying into your own hands" or "watch me brag about how badass I am on the internet."
  • pkulak 16y ago
    Exactly. Seemed like a blog post by Dwight Schrute to me.
  • umjames 16y ago
    Yeah, I don't know if fighting people who have deadly weapons (or at least access to deadly weapons) is a good idea. Even if you win a first encounter, what's to prevent them from finding you later and shooting/stabbing you? I guess that can also apply to bullies in some American schools nowadays. What if the bully wants to prove how badass he is by taking it to a level that involves guns and knives? Thank goodness I graduated before that kind of stuff started.
• deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
• brianmwang 16y ago
  His account of the 9th grader reminds me of the advice to punch out the toughest looking guy in the room on your first day of prison to establish a reputation of unfuckablewithness.
  • draebek 16y ago
    Agreed. My next question is: why are our _schools_ comparable to prisons in this way? Is it really such an inescapable facet of human nature? Why can't we change the culture of school such that, at least while you're actually _in_ school, you're focused on being the smartest person you can be and not looking over your shoulder?
    • jcromartie 16y ago
      It's because they are both institutions founded on compulsory incarceration where rules and regulations reign supreme over common sense and human decency. At least, I think that might have something to do with it.
      • jacoblyles 16y ago
        You'd have to be some sort of dangerous, crazy teabagger to suggest that kids and parents should have the right to choose a school that they like.
    • SapphireSun 16y ago
      Simple reason: You're required to be there. In the rest of life, you can quit your job, move, and find a better crowd of people. It will always turn into lord of the flies if you throw a bunch of (truly) random people together who don't depend on each other and force them to deal with it day after day.
• ErrantX 16y ago
  Not even slightly controversial here. I suffered 5 years of bullying at school; and tried everything to get it to stop, without success. Until one day I just got fed up, walked up to the main tormentor in class and, unprovoked, hit him really hard in the mouth (I think I broke his nose, I'm not sure). Was in weeks of trouble (with the staff) :) but once that was out of the way no one touched me again. I've never outright recommended this approach to anyone; and indeed it's probably not the right thing to do all the time. But some sort of short-sharp-shock can work just as well (so... barging them to the ground etc.) as long as it is sufficiently hard.
  • pkulak 16y ago
    I was just going to say, hasn't this been the standard parenting philosophy since we started standing upright?
    • ErrantX 16y ago
      Could well be. But my Dad never gave me the cliched whispered conversation; "what you need to do son..." From my observation, every adult knows this is the solution. But not all of them has the balls to tell their kid :)
      • gaius 16y ago
        S'what Godparents are for.
        • rhizome 16y ago
          Step 1: Go back in time and acquire Godparents.
          • cema 16y ago
            Better, go forward and become one for a bullied child.
  • lotusleaf1987 16y ago
• Reclix 16y ago
  I'd say every situation has an escalating set of responses, and I certainly don't believe that violence is always unacceptable, especially when nonviolent means have failed. I'd suggest that a large part of why MLK succeeded is because Malcolm X was loudly stating the alternative. I've never been physically bullied, as I've always been both a dork and an athlete, but I was teased relentlessly early on. My dad's advice was always to ignore, and this just didn't work well enough. That's how I discovered the power of personality - the power to fire back is (sadly) what wins respect of children. The challenge once you've gained the skill is to reign it in - to be intentional in your response, and to sometimes decide that nonviolence, or silence IS actually the way to go.
• ck2 16y ago
  But how do we teach kids when the "authority" puts their hands on them? http://www.boingboing.net/201011111141.jpg http://www.boingboing.net/201011111141.jpg
• axod 16y ago
  Whatever happened to 'just ignore them'. Personally, I think that's always the best policy (Unless you're in imminent danger). Also can work well in business. If someone is being a pain, just ignore them and don't give them the publicity they're seeking.
  • JabavuAdams 16y ago
    It's terrible, terrible advice, because it doesn't work with physical violence. I've talked to multiple people who tried this and were bullied mercilessly in response. Kids (of a certain age) don't know when to stop. They naturally try to establish a pecking order, and woe to whoever's at the bottom. Note that I'm not saying you should go punch someone who verbally insults you. I'm specifically talking about responding to violence.
    • mickt 16y ago
      As someone who was bullied and ignored it, all I can say is it didn't really help. I did eventually stand up for myself against one bollox who used to be friendly to me at school and voila, all of the bullies stopped. This is after being bullied from the age of 9 to 14, and boy did I hate school. College was a different matter.
    • axod 16y ago
      I'm in the UK so it's probably quite different. I don't think as a nation we're anywhere near as confrontational, not to mention guns millitary etc For me, it worked fine. (As well as obviously telling teachers and getting them involved if needed). I absolutely detest parents who tell their kids "If someone hits you, hit them back harder"
      • JabavuAdams 16y ago
        I assume you're talking about the US? I'm Canadian. The UK seems to have a lot more street violence and hooliganism than we have here.
        • 16y ago
• kapilkaisare 16y ago
  Reminds me, oddly enough, of one of the early sequences in Ender's Game. Ender beats a guy to mush, so that it will never happen again.
  • jotr99 16y ago
    Ender killed that kid.
    • iwr 16y ago
      Ender was deliberately put in a position where he was forced to fight back or get killed. His "handlers" wanted a dehumanized person capable of everything, including genocide. "The task of the training battalions is to crush and completely destroy the individual, however strong a character he may have possessed, and to fashion out of that person a type to fit the standards of spetsnaz, a type who will be filled with an explosive charge of hatred and spite and a craving for revenge." Source: http://militera.lib.ru/research/suvorov6/index.html http://militera.lib.ru/research/suvorov6/index.html It's a book by Viktor Suvorov "Spetsnaz. The Story Behind the Soviet SAS". A quick and interesting read. Violence and degradation is a common method of training soldiers. Some (not me) would say the school system is deliberately set in this fashion.
• pshapiro 16y ago
  It isn't real love to "talk it out" with them anyway. If it doesn't bless them and yourself it's not love anyway. Things as they actually are is the only way that they are in truth. So the teaching that it's loving them is what's false -- not that love itself couldn't help. In this case, it was a kind of love of oneself to fight back and protect oneself.
• JabavuAdams 16y ago
  I would phrase the advice to sound less hair-trigger, but I essentially agree. "Ignore the bully", or "don't fight back" are terrible advice that put the (your) child at risk. I think where parents get confused is on the individual vs. group distinction. We look at the world, see all the various tribal wars with their counter-attacks and counter-counter-attacks, and erroneously conclude that violence doesn't solve anything. We're not talking suicide bombs and airstrikes, here. If Alice shoves Billy, and Billy shoves Alice back, there's often no escalation, and no-one else is harmed. The issue is settled, and everyone's still alive and well. This is much better than ongoing bullying.
• iwr 16y ago
  It's strange how a society supposedly obsessed with safety nonetheless thinks normal to place a child in such an environment, then do everything to prevent them from defending themselves. It's a prison environment, only the inmates did nothing to deserve being there. The problem could be that kids don't interact much with people outside their age group. They have no reference point of how adults behave. It becomes a sort of Lord of the Flies world.
  • pjscott 16y ago
    Our society isn't really obsessed with safety. It's obsessed with being safe from rare, sensational dangers. If we really cared about safety, we'd focus less on airport security and "stranger danger", and more on getting people to wear seatbelts and never drive while intoxicated. Statistically, automobile accidents are by far the leading cause of accidental death in the US.
• cb33 16y ago
  As someone who used to be somewhat of a bully, I think this is the best advice. Bullies pick on smaller kids because they're insecure about themselves and bullying a smaller kid is... well, easy. If a smaller kid makes it difficult for bullies to pick on them (by fighting back), the bully will most likely stop (and move on to another victim).
  • portman 16y ago
    You make a good point (and it takes guts to admit being a bully): the anti-bullying strategy is to make the bully pick a different target. You don't have to be "un-bullyable", you just have to be less bullyable than the next guy. However, I still believe it's possible to fight back in a non-physical manner. My experience has always been that wit is sharper than fists, so I plan to teach my kids to fight back with language, not punches.
    • cb33 16y ago
      Believe me, that will make most bullies even more angry. They'll feel more insecure because now they're inferior to the "shrimp" in a way. It's just adding fuel to the fire.
      • portman 16y ago
        It worked for me growing up. I attended 8 schools between ages 12 and 18 (yes, more than one per year) and was bullied throughout. And that's why comparing parenting strategies is almost never fruitful -- nearly every decision a parent makes is deeply personal, made with very few data points. ( By the way, if any parents here have NOT read Nurture Shock, buy it right now. Pretty much the only data-driven book on parenting there is. http://www.amazon.com/dp/0446504122 http://www.amazon.com/dp/0446504122 )
• swombat 16y ago
  Seems like Ender's Game 101. Thoroughly agree, and wish I'd had the balls to carry it through when I was bullied as a kid. My dad gave me this very advice at the time, but I was too cowardly to follow it...
  • sofal 16y ago
    How many of us who got picked on would have had the guts to follow this advice anyway? I don't think that many of these kids have anything that they are holding back for lack of better advice, as if they can calmly choose their reaction when the time comes. How do you get rid of paralyzing fear?
    • thomasz 16y ago
      Shouting helps.
• krsgoss 16y ago
  Does this advice help at all with girls? Girls seemed to bully socially rather than physically when I was in school. What do you tell a young girl who's in a similar situation? "Punch her in the nose?" I had a similar experience (and resolution) in middle school and I agree with the author's conclusion. But now I have an 8 month old daughter who may experience this type of bullshit one day, and I'm not sure what advice I'd give her just now.
  • JanezStupar 16y ago
    I have seen more than one schoolgirl fist fight. I don't have kids - but id probably tell her the same. Its more about teaching a lesson and giving encouragement and about standing for one self. She probably wont go gorilla on her peers. Girls tend to do it in more subtle form. What I think is the most important thing to do is to give training by example - live the way of a warrior and kids will pick it up themselves. Be polite, kind, sincere but closely follow the rules of engagement - when someone sets tries to turn tables on you, be sure to let him know that you know the game too.
  • danudey 16y ago
    Put her through martial arts lessons with a good teacher. It's good for self-defense anyway, and I'd never want my daughter to be unprepared to defend herself if she should need to. Not so that she can beat up the other girls, mind you, but having that sort of discipline, capability, and independence can really provide a good boost to your confidence. You know you're capable, and the taunts of others don't bother you as much. It's not going to prevent it from bothering her, but it will certainly help her withstand it if it should come to that. If she's not bothered by their initial insults or taunts, they won't enjoy it enough to come back and harass her again.
  • bootload 16y ago
    "... Does this advice help at all with girls? Girls seemed to bully socially rather than physically when I was in school. What do you tell a young girl who's in a similar situation? "Punch her in the nose?" ..." The asymmetry of this situation is not described much here because the type of bullying attacks used by females are less physical. The mechanics are similar but the techniques are different and can be summarised thus: "Males are paratroopers, females are secret agents". Males rely more on aggression and physicality and are overt while females specailise in covert relational and psychological bullying. If you want to read the mechanics & some citations try here ~ http://seldomlogical.com/2010/06/18/hacking-people http://seldomlogical.com/2010/06/18/hacking-people The best article I've read on bulling is "Big Bad Bully" ~ http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200910/big-bad-bully http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200910/big-bad-bully and the best references specifically for dealing with female bullying I've seen is by "Rosalind Wiseman" ~ http://www.amazon.com/Rosalind-Wiseman/e/B001IOH8ZW/ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_3?qid=1289548573&sr=1-3 http://www.amazon.com/Rosalind-Wiseman/e/B001IOH8ZW/ref=sr_n...
• icegreentea 16y ago
  We had a discussion on another blog post regarding this book a month ago or something. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1764236 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1764236
• ahoyhere 16y ago
  You don't need to hit a bully to break his power. The trick is to emasculate them. Show them you don't care. When they insult you or hurt you, laugh at them. You just have to mean it. I was bullied for years until I realized one day why they bullied me - I smelled of fear, and I didn't react, I just stood there and looked at them. Suddenly it all made sense, they were like braindead sharks to blood. So I started smiling and laughing at them. Took the wind right out of their sails, and they weren't able to force me to come down to their level. I won. Play their game and they still win on some level, because hurting another person hurts yourself.
  • hasenj 16y ago
    What's all this talk about "their level"? "Hurting someone hurts yourself", bullshit. Revenge is sweet. Defending yourself is not a weakness or immoral, it's rather noble. If you go with the "laugh at them" technique, they will still go around bullying other kids. But, stand up and fight them, and they learn a lesson that bullying has some serious consequences. You also set an example to other bullies and other kids being bullied.
    • ahoyhere 16y ago
      Unlike probably most people here on HN, I have done real violence to someone else. Over and over, in fact. I had the cops called on me and I've had to live with the consequences. And I don't mean legal consequences. Beating up on other people kills you inside, slowly, because it shows you exactly what kind of person you are. It doesn't matter if you're "standing up" to some other kid. Violence is violence. I'm not saying violence is never required, but if you're resorting to violence when a smile and a chuckle will do, you're weak -- you don't have enough willpower to control yourself, or brains to think up an alternative.
      • hasenj 16y ago
        > Beating up on other people kills you inside, slowly, because it shows you exactly what kind of person you are. I disagree. What kills you inside slowly, is all the authority figures telling you what a horrible person you are for defending yourself. I mean, by all means if you live in a place where the cops will actually do something if someone hurts, just call the cops. But you have to remember that the world doesn't consist entirely of north america.
• magicseth 16y ago
  It's a really fine line. This type of response can just as easily backfire on you. One punch back can escalate things well beyond the original infraction, the next thing you know, you are in the hospital. Embarrassing someone who fancies themselves the leader of a pack is never a good idea. Even if you escape unscathed one day, the very next day you may be met with an even larger pack of people. It is this very mindset that perpetuates violence, it doesn't end it. For Sebastian, the line is clear "as soon as someone puts their hands on you," but everyone has a different line. Taunting someone every day for months can push someone beyond their line, and when they push you away out of desperation they have "put their hands on you." Being strong and standing up for yourself does not require physical violence. Understanding the reason someone is picking on you is perhaps the best way to actually stop it, and perhaps even address the root cause, making the road better for the next person in line. When complaining about the bully in my elementary school, my parents explained to me the social situation that he was brought up in, and how we were so lucky in comparison. I didn't "love" them, but I understood them much better, and learned how to avoid getting in their way. Hitting back wouldn't have solved anything.
• jbooth 16y ago
  I was with this guy until he started talking about mouthing off to a mafia guy in Japan. Kid stuff is kid stuff, adult stuff is different. That 9th grader had almost certainly never tortured someone with a car battery. Same with the muggers - who's to say that they're sane in the least? What if they're really strung-out and have knives, now you're going to the hospital.
  • superchink 16y ago
    I was hoping someone else felt this way. In my view, it's never worth risking your life to protect your belongings. Be like Roger Sterling in Mad Men and give up your money & your jewelry.
    • rdl 16y ago
      The reason for shooting a mugger is that the situation is inherently one where your life is at risk. Even if you totally comply, you could be killed. Shooting an attacker is safer for you. It is usually far more expensive, though -- maybe 1-5k in legal costs even if it doesn't get much followup (and if it goes to trial, could be over 100k), potential civil suits, and of course the cost of firearms and training to even have the choice. I would definitely toss a $500 wallet and run if it were at the time a safer choice, even with a firearm. But, I would have no problem killing to defend my life, either.
      • superchink 16y ago
        I guess I made my comment as someone who doesn't currently carry a firearm. I suppose the situation changes when you're capable of disabling the attacker outright by shooting him. I was speaking mainly to a situation where you'd be inciting some sort of a fight or a struggle with someone crazy enough to attempt a mugging. In this case, I still stand by my feeling that you're better off complying. If you're able, by all means, protect yourself. You'll find no objections from me there.
        • jbooth 16y ago
• kenjackson 16y ago
  Why don't parents do something? I'd have no problem, as an adult, confronting a kid and telling them that if they touched my son again I'd personally deliver them to juvy where I can make accomodations for buddies they don't appreciate. And unless they're already hardened gang members, this should work pretty well, and probably breaks no laws. And if they do do it again, live up to your promise, to the extent possible. If they are hardened gang members, you should probably get your child out of the situation, because fighting back is a losing proposition.
• dkl 16y ago
  I moved around a lot as a kid, so I was the convenient target, too. My 10 yr old is in martial arts and has a green-brown belt. He absolutely loves it. I've told him to only use it as a last resort, but to use it. I recall being bullied by a rather dull kid when in elementary school. I remember him relentlessly telling me he would kick my ass. I told my Dad and he recommended that if it push came to shove, to just punch him in the face. So, one day the kid came at me and I hit him (don't even remember where). I was never bothered again at that school. Bullies reign when no one stands up to them.
  • sofal 16y ago
    I really don't want to sound like some drive by detractor on the Internet, so let me explain where I'm coming from. I was that 10 year old kid. I had a junior black belt in karate at around 12 years old. My dad really kind of enjoyed it vicariously and was proud of my accomplishments. He also, like you, believed that I had attained some skills that could be used for real self defense. He told me that it should be used only as a last resort, as if it were a secret weapon. The fact is, it was nothing of the sort. I could never handle myself in a fight, and I never had the confidence that I could, either. There are many martial arts dojos out there that sell exactly what kung fu movies sell: fantasy. These are the dojos that every kind of kid goes to and they all just love love love it, and their parents just think it's so great and fun. These are the dojos where you will see people lined up in rows to repeatedly kick and punch and block the air while yelling "kyah!" or something to that effect. Sometimes they'll kick and punch pads that instructors are holding, and sometimes they'll be paired off to "spar" really lightly with one another, where the mere soft contact of a gloved hand on the chest represents a hit. Memorization of fight/dance moves is a major part of progressing from each belt. The one thing that these dojos will not do is have your son or daughter fight anybody. The simple fact is that you cannot learn to fight without fighting. Punching the air or a pad does not prepare you physically, emotionally, or mentally for punching a person. Totally dominating imaginary attackers in an elaborate dance may have something to do with arts, but absolutely nothing to do with martial. Not even a false sense of confidence is given to these kids, because when faced with a real threat, they know very well that they're not prepared. The false sense of confidence is sold to the parents. It certainly doesn't hurt to take your kid to a dojo like this, because at least they have fun and get a decent workout. But the real reason I wanted to go as a kid was to learn how to fight, and my dad thought that was exactly what I was learning, and it ultimately proved to be a great disappointment because of these mismatched expectations. I don't know what kind of dojo you take your kid to, but the advice from this random guy on the Internet is to make sure your expectations are being matched. A fun workout with a group of peers is good for a kid, but if you (and him) really want to develop fighting skills, I strongly recommend trying something like wrestling or Jiu-Jitsu. It needs to be a place where the kids are pitted against each other in a well-controlled environment, where the goal is to physically overpower your opponent.
• alexandros 16y ago
  This article is the seventh result on Google for "make violence on" (quotes included). Can a native speaker comment on this use? It sounds odd/interesting to me and given that the rest of the article is well written, this puzzles me quite a bit. I normally associate such uses of 'make' with native speakers of Arabic, which obviously doesn't apply.
  • elblanco 16y ago
    It's a bit nonstandard sounding to me, but understandable.
  • dstone 16y ago
    As a native english speaker, I paused when I saw that construct too. Looking at the google results, these are examples of the way I would expect those words to be put together: * "Video games could make violence on the whole seem more 'okay.'" * "Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has promised to make violence on the basis of sexual orientation a priority for her office." The only google result that seems similar to the original article is from asianoutlook.com: "You can make violence on weeds, ideas, and terror, but not war." In that sense, it's closer to the phrase "make war on", which is much more common. Without knowing any asian languages, I would assume that they use war and violence somewhat interchangeably, which would explain the odd phrasing.
  • jimbokun 16y ago
    It seems like a pre-meditated attempt at non-standard usage. Sounds kind of like something Samuel L. Jackson might say in righteous anger.
• zaidf 16y ago
  I was bullied quite a bit when I started 1st grade at a new school. Luckily I had two older brothers at the school. A couple times I pointed out the dudes responsible and they would go have a word with them and that'd take care of it. I guess you get bullied when the other party things they have little to lose and lots(of pleasure) to gain. Soon as you signal they might have something to lose and they believe you they move on to the next victim. A few times I remember just cursing out the bullies OUT LOUD. I was considered so weak that they never thought I'd do that. Once I did, the bullying stopped.
• nadam 16y ago
  Good advice generally. Although there are rare very serious cases when even this does not help. There was a mentally ill guy in our primary school who was strong, wild and agressive like an animal. (He has done weight training every day being 11 years old!) He had no respect of his own life, so if someone fought back he would fight until really dangerous levels. The older the guys are the more dangerous this whole thing can get. In an extreme situation the best thing someone can do is to tell everything their parents. The serious bully in our school was first 'met' by the father of a bullied girl and later were fired from the school.
• castis 16y ago
  In my findings, this method is not near as effective as having something you said get taken way out of context. I got bullied a little in middle school. However, in a completely unrelated event, I said something with one feeling and someone nearby thought I said it in anger I guess. Next thing I know, SWAT and local police are at my high school and somehow everyone knows who they're looking for. Apparently "Really? OMG Im gonna kill her! lol" directly translates to "I'm going to bring a gun to school and murder her". I was never messed with again and no one asked.
• elblanco 16y ago
  http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1765749 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1765749
• chrisaycock 16y ago
  Michael Lewis had a line in "Liars Poker" about dealing with asshole traders: lift weights and take karate.
• maxklein 16y ago
  You don't end a fight by starting a fight. It works in theory, but it just causes a culture of violence. People who are bullied are bullied because of they way they are perceived by others. You notice how there are a lot of neutral people who nobody bullies? There are the bullies on one extreme, then there are a lot of neutrals, then there are the bullied on the other extreme. Asking a person who is bullied to hit someone is not solving the problem at all, it is actually contributing to the 'weirdness' factor that made that person bullied in the first place. The people who are bullied are not bullied just because they look physically weak, but because they are giving off the wrong social vibe. Doing something like hitting someone is not addressing the real issue. To stop a child from being bullied, you need to address the short term problem, and you need to adress the long term problem. The short term problem is that the people need to stop, and the long term problem is that he needs to gain a lot of confidence and properly learn how to integrate himself in a social situation. He needs to learn to assert himself, and not be weak. The short term solution can be solved without violence. If a person is bullying you, and you just say nothing, just scowl and lean towards the person with your arms swinging free, look straight into the eyes of the people without blinking, speak in a low cold voice, then walk away without looking back you can almost always stop further aggravation. Most bullied people make the mistake of smiling and trying to laugh off the problem, then going into a body posture that says they are defensive, and hopping from foot to foot or fiddling with clothes, and looking down. This encourages the bullies, because you are displaying beta-male behaviour. The long term solution involves forcing the child into a lot of social activities, so that he learns how to establish and build social hierachies. Also, a lot of physical activity, particular where he can get to dominate, and also team sports where he is working with people less competent than him will also help teach him to assert himself. Saying somethin like "punch the person" is not only not very clever, it's also practically undoable for most bullied people. Most bullied kids are small wimpy and non-assertive kids. They can't punch anyone. Don't give this pointless advice.
  • sebg 16y ago
    I agree with you and with Sebastian. As in most things, context needs to be given. In settings with 1 or 2 bullies, a show of strength is enough to have someone back down. In other settings with many bullies, I agree with max here in that it's better to solve it without violence. My mom taught for many years in urban inner-city high schools. Had she stood up to bullies who bullied other kids or teachers she would have had to deal with bullies whose parents had been shot or killed in drug deals. There is a different mentality there. Sometimes a show of strength is the best thing, sometimes a show of kindness is the best thing.
• toast76 16y ago
  I'm the youngest of three boys. We all went to the same high school. When I arrive in Year 7, there were apparently quite a few kids "lining up" to have a go at me. My brothers were well respected academics as well as both celebrated for their Basketball and Athletics achievements, and I was the geek. My group of geek friends and I took our share of hassling in the first week. It was probably day 4 when one of the bullies had a go at a friend of mine (over a paper aeroplane if I recall) so I stood up to him. I then got backed into a corner by 2 or 3 of them who started really hammering me. Something snapped in me. I started kicking, punching, kneeing, throwing windmills and swearing like a crazy person. I don't know how long it was before a teacher came out and broke it up. But I'm sure it wasn't long, and I'm dead certain that I barely made contact with anything. We all sat in the principals office and got a stern talking to. The older kids were suspended, I was let off...probably because my brothers were star pupils. They thought I was bat-shit crazy. For the next 6 years I wasn't hassled again.
• dnsworks 16y ago
  In 9th grade I threw a bully down a set of stairs, then proceeded to beat him with every bit of energy I had (not much, I was a fat kid). After he got out of the hospital, in casts, he stayed far, far away from me. That was the last time anybody tried bullying me. "God" isn't going to stop the bullies, a good old fashioned ass kicking is.
• kno 16y ago
  I grew up in a tough neighborhood, lower middle class, where we fix issues with fists fights. My dad, a tough guy, hated bullying period. He did not tolerate his child being the bully; he made us understand that is was shameful to mistreat the weak and the young. He always told us to stand our ground when attacked, he said if the attacker was stronger and bigger we could use a stick, a stone or anything that could really hurt the attacker. My dad said we should not respond to a push with a push, he thought an attack should be met with a response x times. A punch for a push; my two brothers and I were known for our fierce defense abilities, which made us safe from bullying growing up. Today as a parent, I give the same advice to my children. We are a minority in our neighborhood and my kids go to great school. They have been through multiple attacks from bullies. My son is in middle school and so far has been able to fight back at many would be bullies. I made it clear to the principal and some parents of bullies that my children are permitted to fight back when attacked, that I will stand by them in all circumstances. So far it has been working pretty well next year my daughter will be in high school and my son is a reputed defensive player in the basketball team.
• lhorie 16y ago
  >> I had two guys try to mug me the other day in a dangerous area. Bad mistake, doubled one of them over with a kick the stomach and shouted at the other one, YOU WANT TO DIE? BACK DOWN, STAY BACK. He did, he let me walk away while his criminal buddy was doubled over. Where I come from, the third kid, who was pretending to be a bystander all along, with the gun under his shirt, would've shot you from behind your back. Just because resorting to violence to deal with bullies works doesn't mean you should go all rambo with actual criminals.
  • pjscott 16y ago
    I'm curious why this third kid would escalate the crime from mugging to assault with a deadly weapon and possibly murder. It sounds pretty irrational.
    • anigbrowl 16y ago
      a) Territorial protection. Gang members (as in an actual criminal organization) want a monopoly on illegal economic activity in an area. Thugs don't anticipate making a lot of money but can get social status via fear - the ability to act with impunity if they have limited imagination, the ability to collect rents in the form of protection money if they have more. b) It gives him a hold over the other two. If you're unfortunate enough to be attacked by a group, you'll often find that the physically smallest person calls the shots. They may look like a beta (waiting until the bigger guys have had their fun) but this is misleading. In a situation like this your aim is to isolate this person from his muscle - easier said than done, of course. c) If they're professionals rather than doing it for kicks, dead men tell no tales. Forensic science helps, but only up to a point. A rainy night in a back alley won't leave much evidence, unless the criminal is foolish enough to retain a weapon or cell phone.
    • lhorie 16y ago
      The whole thing hinges on the premise of not getting caught in the first place, so they'll do whatever increases their chances. If it involves killing someone who reacted to the assault, so be it, they think.
  • 16y ago
• marcamillion 16y ago
  Just to re-iterate many of the above comments. When I was in 7th grade (in Jamaica you are about 11 in 7th grade), I was perpetually bullied by one guy. Another 7th grader, but because I came from a middle class upbringing and he from lesser means, perhaps he felt a need to exude a 'gangster' image. Given that I was one of the smallest guys in the class, that naturally meant I became a target. At first I would try to ignore it, but it never went away. Well, one day I decided I wasn't going to take it and I fought back. I hit him a few times and we rumbled together and I ended up having him in a 'sleeper hold' - i.e. my arm around & in front of his neck, with my other arm locked around the back of his head - with him fading quickly. In a fit of desperation he quickly pulled out a compass (the one that had a 1-inch long point) and stabbed me in my arm - to get me to let go. Well, it worked, I let go instantly. The pain was intense - but he was able to get his breath back. As soon as we both realized what he did, I turned to walk to the bathroom (because it had started bleeding by now), but he thought I was going to the principal's office. Naturally he ran after me apologizing profusely and literally BEGGED me not to go to the principal. I bluffed a bit, and indicated to him that if he ever troubled me again I am going straight there. That was the end of that...for the rest of my high school career he never troubled me again. As a matter of fact, if he ever saw anyone else try picking on me, he would kinda take up for me. So while I wouldn't say 'take something hard and knock them in the back of their head' but simply fighting back and standing up for yourself can help significantly. Although, a word of caution, I could have easily been stabbed elsewhere (like my eye, or head). So take that for what it's worth and advise your kids of the real potential consequences of fighting back - not to mention further retribution by the bully's friends (which is a very real possibility here in Jamaica). That being said, I am definitely going to advise my son to hit back - but do it wisely and make sure not to do TOO much damage. i.e. once they back off, stop, leave, and report it (or not, as my case proved) or call me to at least let me know there was an issue. Edit: Oh and for the record, the wound took about 2 months to heal properly and hurt like a mother-lover, for what it's worth.
• a_m_kelly 16y ago
  If you find yourself to be interested in this sort of thing more broadly, in the justification of violence or it's utility, I recommend William T. Vollmann's exhaustive, intricate attempt to establish a framework for understanding the motivations, morals, and ethics of violence in his work Rising Up and Rising Down: Some thoughts on Violence, Freedom & Urgent Means. To give some idea of what the text is like, here's a little bit of it from a section called "Where Do My Rights End?": Justified Choices of the Self: 1. Whether or not to violently defend itself against violence; 2. Whether or not to violently defend someone else from violence. 3. Whether or not to destroy itself. 4. Whether or not to help a weaker self destroy itself, to save it from a worse fate. Conditions: 1. No attachment to nonviolent creeds. 2. No attachment to collectivity or authority which might prohibit the self from removing itself from "the line of fire" Caveat to (1) and (2): So-called involunrtary attachments are not binding..." (pg 81-82. Abbr. Edition) ... The abridged edition from which I quote above is over 700 pages and includes case studies and narratives of people, nations or groups acting a certain way, which Vollmann slotting them into his "Moral Calculus," I haven't had a chance to finish it yet but I remain interested in the elaborate thought experiment that is the book and the vividness of the historical anecdotes it contains. Vollmann would fully support responding to violence in kind, there's a long section on non-violent movements and their utter hopelessness in the face of regimes unwilling (like bullies) to tolerate any dissent. [The classic example of this is perhaps Harry Turteldove's story "The Last Article," which proposes Ghandi campaigning in a Nazi occupied India and ends just as you would expect it to.]
• rapind 16y ago
  I was with you until the fight dirty part. Often but not always bullying is due to insecurity. While I will definitely recommend to my son to stick up for himself and others he cares about (sorry but turn the other cheek is not my thing) I would never tell him to fight dirty. Win or lose, getting beat up is not the end of the world. Some people are tougher and that's just the way it is. Winning a fight against a bully is not nearly as important as showing the balls to fight even if you don't think you stand a chance. It won't always produce good results one-off, but overall it'll be worth it. As for some of these comments advising trickery like showing strength, staring, talking crap etc. Doesn't work. Once you've been in a few fights you understand this. A lot of it's on a subconscious level and your body language will make it obvious that you're trying to avoid a fight while pretending to act mean. People sense that and it's the absolute quickest way to lose a few teeth. So what if he's bigger and stronger? The quickest way to end a fight is to hit hard and fast with an utter lack of fear. If you really are at a huge disadvantage then yeah it won't go so well. But if that's the case you weren't going to scare him off with intellectual techniques either.
  • xentronium 16y ago
    The quickest way to end a fight is to hit hard and fast with an utter lack of fear. You could still compensate your lesser size with a lead pipe or a stick.
  • Tichy 16y ago
    For me the reason to not fight dirty is also that it gives the enemy the license to also fight dirty. When I was a kid, there was some unwritten honor code to not punch each other in the balls. Or maybe not honor, just fear of reciprocal actions. I think it made a lot of sense. It all depends on the context of course. If somebody would try to do me serious harm, of course I would kick his balls. If it is just about domination, might not be such a good idea. Even more so with scarier stuff (knives, hard objects) - this could become dangerous really fast.
• maxawaytoolong 16y ago
  It's sort of embarrassing this is the number one story on hacker news. Especially since it's 6 weeks old and was already posted before, and mostly seems fabricated. It reads like some fat kid ender's game revenge fantasy. I guess maybe this is what happens in white suburban schools? Cuz fights in the schools where I used to teach math would end up with kids in the hospital or dead. Or, I guess I don't really know, because both parties would both never come back to school. I guess if Bobby Bully is putting beans in your pants you can try your karate kid routine on him. Maybe Eye of The Tiger will start playing and after you make him cry by ballet kicking him in the nose you and Elisabeth Shue can go share a milkshake at Pop's and then make out at the drive in. But in real life Jesus and Jose and their 20 cousins and homies just show up after school and steal all your clothes, your bike, your money and throw you into the dumpster. I guess I don't ever really believe these stories, because whenever i've seen someone fight back it just turned into a drawn out war, not some fairytale DeGrassi afterschool special outcome where the bully "learned his place"
  • pyre 16y ago
    That just depends on whether or not the bully has friends. There were plenty of kids that bullied me in school that, looking back, didn't have some huge posse to back them up. That said, all of the "I was about to beat up a mob boss in Hong Kong because I'm so cool like that" was over the top (i.e. probably fake).
  • deleted 16y ago
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  • pjscott 16y ago
    Realistically, I don't think the point is to make the bully stop bullying, or even to win a fight. The point is to convince him to find an easier target.
    • Jach 16y ago
      Maybe the point should shift to the former. I'd feel awful if I knew my hitting a bully back just made him go pick on some other kid instead of me. We should be trying to change his behavior, not deflect your problems onto someone else.
• mattmaroon 16y ago
  It does crack me up that people think being nice to a bully will work. They realize that bullies act out of misery due to self esteem issues, but they think one high school kid, who the bully sees as a helpless victim, saying something like "I value you as a person" is going to turn around the bully's self esteem. Humans don't work that way. Years of ingrained low self worth take years of effort to correct. Going Joe Pesci on one of them works in minutes.
• seldo 16y ago
  Fuck this. I'm not a violent person. I never have been and never will be. I do not consider it a valid way to solve problems. Reverting to our animal nature is rejecting the progress we have made in our brains overriding unproductive basic survival impulses in favour of smarter solutions. That's not to say this approach doesn't work. For some people it works perfectly. But hitting back only works if you're stronger than them. Otherwise they'll just kick your ass and things will get worse. And even if it works, all you've done is validate the world view that might makes right. The world is full of idiots who ruin the lives of others, both at the micro level of domestic abuse and the macro level of dictatorships, because of this principle. It's the law of the jungle, and you know what? We don't live in the fucking jungle any more. We live in a civilized society, where intelligence can triumph over brute strength. Nobody should know that better than HN, a community of nerds who dream of changing the world one keystroke at a time. I'm disappointed to see how much support there is for this idea. The smart solution to bullying is to make it socially unacceptable. Kids don't take dumps in the hallways because there's no payoff to doing so. But if you beat up the unpopular kid, you get some credibility. Rob them of that credibility, rob them of their motivation, and you end bullying, without swinging a fist.
  • deleted 16y ago
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  • masklinn 16y ago
    > The smart solution to bullying is to make it socially unacceptable. Sure, the bullied kid — which generally has low sociability, either from the start or following the ostracization coming along with the bullying, and few if any friends — is going to make bullying "socially unacceptable". That's a very nice feel-good declaration, but it's about as helpful as "smack yourself in the mouth to help them so the beating is shorter"
  • jimbokun 16y ago
    "The smart solution to bullying is to make it socially unacceptable." And until then?
    • 16y ago
• ryanelkins 16y ago
  I agree with this as it pertains to kids in school. I wish I better knew how to defend myself as a gangly teenager. I fully plan on making sure my son know knows how to defend himself and when it is appropriate to do so. However, the author goes on to describe attacking people trying to mug him - that's a bit foolhardy I think. Sure, it may work with some people who thought they had an easy mark, others might pull out a knife and gut you. I'm not saying you hug they guy and tell him how swell he is - but for the sake of yourself and anyone that might be with you - just give them your wallet or car or whatever it is. Now if you feel they are going to put you in a situation where you won't be able to defend yourself (they want to cuff you, tie you up, etc) - now you have an argument for going on the offensive.
• andrewl 16y ago
  I agree with the author. In the meantime, the authorities should be doing something about the bullying themselves. Here's an interesting article about an unusual bullying-reduction program: http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/08/fighting-bullying-with-babies/ http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/08/fighting-bul... And if it works, that's great, and I'm all for it. But while we're waiting, I agree with the author's post.
• Legion 16y ago
  I firmly believe that earnest efforts to suppress any and all physical violence in schools has created an environment where bullies are able to operate without repercussion. Good kids don't "fight". It's so ingrained into the head of the good kids that they are terrified of fighting even to defend themselves. Thus, bullies get to bully with no fear. There's no consequence. Whereas when a weaker kid fights back, even if the bully is strong enough to "win" the battle, he still gets hit in the mouth and does not like it. Bullies much prefer low-hanging fruit that doesn't fight back. My children, when school age (maybe not 1st grade, but certainly by junior high), will be sat down and have the following explained to them: "You are allowed to defend yourself. You will avoid physical conflict whenever possible, but should you ever be physically threatened or subject to ongoing torment, you have the GREEN LIGHT to use physical force to protect yourself, OR to assist a friend who is unable to protect themselves." "You may get in trouble with your school. THIS IS OK. Your well-being is more important than their rules. If you get suspended for three days, then I'll take three days off work and we'll keep up with your studies. I will be on your side. Do not let concern over the school rules stop you at all from defending yourself." "However, you will never use force to do anything but protect yourself or your friend. If I find that YOU have been the aggressor, I will smite you." I'll probably need to work on that speech a bit between now and then, but you get the idea. :) I was lucky. I was never the small or weak one. Even still, I can think back to a couple of situations where fear of parental response prevented me from protecting myself as well as I should have. My children will have it made known to them that they will not be "assumed guilty" when a situation comes up where they physically defend themselves. No aggression towards others will be tolerated, but they will be trusted to properly use their discretion, and until they prove themselves guilty, they will be assumed innocent.
  • sixtofour 16y ago
    I've had essentially this conversation with my son. Mine breaks down to: - Attempt to walk away from verbal abuse. - If it gets physical, fight like hell until the threat stops, then walk away. Your goal is not to "win" or injure, your goal is to walk away.
    • Legion 16y ago
• brockf 16y ago
  I guess they believed this too? Or maybe not until too late? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre
• holychiz 16y ago
  Good advice for my kids. I've had similar experiences, since I lived in many different places and at each place, I had to go through it again. After awhile, I started to do it pre-emptively by scoping out the assholes and wait for them to say anything even remotely provocative then I pounced. Since I'm smaller and weaker, I can't say I win even half the time, but they leave me alone 100% of the time after the fights. Some even become my friends. Don't underestimate the element of surprise! Hit first, hit hard, son! :)
• deleted 16y ago
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• mcantor 16y ago
  Oh for fuck's sake. People, there are many reasons why bullying occurs, and there are many types of bullies, and there are many types of kids who get bullied. Does anyone out there honestly believe that there's a single solution that will work in every situation? I hate to be so condescending, but really now! On a site like this, where we make careers out of handling edge conditions, we should know better. If a kid punches you because he hates himself, should you punch him back? What if a kid punches you because he's trying to fit in with a circle of friends, and they hate themselves, but he just kinda has low self-esteem? What if a kid punches you because you remind him of a kid that bullied him last year? What if a kid punches you because he's having a bad day, but he feels bad about it after? What if a kid punches you because he likes you, but he has an abusive family environment and punching is the only way he knows to express affection? What if a kid punches you because he hates himself, but he hates everyone else too? What if a kid punches you because he has low self esteem and he's jealous of how smart you sounded in class just now? The answer to everything up there is not "JUST PUNCH THE FUCKER" or "JUST HUG THE FUCKER." Come on. They are all unique situations in their own right, and they all must be considered separately. In fact, each of those has different solutions based on who the target is. They're schoolchildren. They're humans. They're not computer programs! They're not predictable automatons! If you're new in school and you fuck someone up on the first day, that's completely different from being bullied for six years and then finally punching back. The first has a higher likelihood of getting you left alone. The second will probably make it worse! If you're a small kid and you try to give them a hug, that's different from if you're a big kid. They could say the small kid is only being friendly because he's too wimpy to fight back. They could say a big kid is only punching because he's too stupid to think of a comeback. IT DEPENDS. It fucking DEPENDS. The whole reason "bullying" remains an "unsolved issue" is because people keep suggesting silver bullets, and there fucking isn't one. Instead of attacking each other's silver bullets, why don't we take the difficult but arguably more worthwhile path of identifying different motivations for bullying and how the psychology of differing responses works? Because this "be friendly"/"punch them out" bullshit sounds more and more like emacs vs. vim to me. PLEASE?
  • siculars 16y ago
    Uh, no. If someone punches me there really is no decision matrix in which I will not punch him back. His motivations are frankly irrelevant to me and are something he needs to work out on his own.
• armandososa 16y ago
  I agree with responding to physical abuse with violence. But hitting someone for verbal abuse seems nonsensical, dumb, and animalistic. Growing up being a short, brown-skinned, fatty-snotty nerd gain me a lot of verbal abuse, but I always was very good with wit and snark and more than once, the abuser ended up crying. Funny enough, this ability gave me enough respect that almost nobody ever tried to physically abuse me.
• msg 16y ago
  "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you." Reading this thread, it occurs to me once again how countercultural the Sermon on the Mount is, and how hard it is to seriously live it. I wouldn't recommend this as a plan of action for somebody else's kid. Or for others, in a pluralist political context. Or for nations. Because hey, this goes down to a very basic belief about how to live rightly and wrongly in the world, and how to respond to violence and evil.
  • MoreMoschops 16y ago
    "Reading this thread, it occurs to me once again how countercultural the Sermon on the Mount is, and how hard it is to seriously live it." On the other hand, the reward (if you believe it) is eternal paradise of some kind. Infinite good in exchange for some finite pain. Yay religion.
    • msg 16y ago
      You speak like someone who doesn't understand Christianity from the inside. Knowing God is its own reward. The Christian life is not a video game. Heaven is not an Achievement. Suffering is not inconsequential.
      • jmtulloss 16y ago
        I really appreciate this reply, but I do think that the sermon on the mount stands on its own, without religion being involved. There are situations in which being the better man means stepping aside.
• steauengeglase 16y ago
  Essay time. In my freshman and sophomore years in college I did some substitute teaching. It was easy money. The state gives you $90 if you can pass a TB test and everyone makes it through the day with all digits. Simple enough. So one day I was subbing in a high school math class. I looked over the lesson plan and noticed that one kid was marked as a "disruption". As I'm going over the roll I'm looking for him. Football player? Nope, not him. Thug kid? Nah. Smug asshole attention seeker? No. Oh, there he is and holy shit it's me! White kid with glasses, either over or under weight and reading Musician's Friend, probably has a copy of Elektor hidden in there somewhere. His bookbag has every one of his books in it because he doesn't want to go to his locker. Either someone keeps messing with him or he subconsciously doesn't want to remember his combination. Soon the disruption became obvious. Every few minutes someone would hit him or yell something at him and he kept withdrawing into his shell. After I threw a couple out it stopped. After class I stopped him on the way out and chatted for a few minutes. I was right, there was a copy of Elektor in his bag and no, he couldn't remember his combination. During lunch I hung out in the teacher's lounge and chatted with a few of the teachers. Finally I asked them about him. It was a consensus, he was a disruption and they couldn't wait to find a reason to expel him. This was the point where I realized I'd never make it as a teacher. After years of being angry at the other kids it never occurred to me that they were also the enemy. Suddenly the codes made sense. How many times had I heard teachers say that students should be able to "learn in a non-disruptive environment"? Fuck, they wanted me to get thrown to the wolves; it was always a part of the plan. I was just a cancer in the education system's body, something that didn't just work its way out, despite their best non-efforts. The following year I took a job in a call center and moved to their IT dept. Subbing was easy, but at least IT didn't feel like blood money. There was a silver lining. I ran into that kid a few years ago in a restaurant. He was married with a kid of his own. He rushed and grabbed by hand. "I just want to say thanks. You were right, they were all assholes." That was by far my most satisfying job related moment. Only Hallmark moment I have to offer.
  • poet 16y ago
    I upvoted you. It's a good story and far more common than most people would like to believe. But I would caution you against generalizing your anecdotal evidence to the profession of teaching as a whole. Some teachers would do exactly what you did and throw the bully's out and the vast majority wouldn't blame the victim. In my relatively large (but admittedly still anecdotal) experience with CPS and public suburban schools, I've only seen teachers close to what you describe in a small fraction.
• deleted 16y ago
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• mrr2 16y ago
  This is probably the soundest advice to dealing with bullying I have ever seen. As a kid that has been to 7 different schools in 2 different countries (and learned English in '99), I assure you "hugging it out" with the bully will lead to you getting humiliated. They do not respect loving them. They do not respect constructive dialogue. Your peers will not respect you for trying to reach out to them. In fact they will see you as a kiss-ass, or worse a "bitch" (sorry but that's the term). I moved to the US in '02. Attended a great Catholic school for 8th grade. Was accepted despite the funny accent and funny name. Went to high school and had a miserable 1st month of school thanks to a group of jackasses. One of them had the gall to touch me after which I took a lunch tray to a kids face. God my butt handed to me but guess what? No more bullying. Hell I got elected to the student council, dated some great girls, and had a great high school experience. Stand up for yourself. It might hurt but you will get respect. Kids/teens are animals. No need to go cerebral on them.
• deleted 16y ago
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• lmkg 16y ago
  My only problem with this article is when the author considers the antagonists to be animals. It encourages thinking of the bullies as sub-human, and beyond redemption, and treating them like that encourages them to keep acting like that. People are complicated, life is complicated, and completely dismissing someone as an "animal" and ignoring anything else about them is an arrogant effort to make yourself feel morally superior for taking what is an essentially pragmatic option. Like I said, that's the only issue I have, and I condone the advice to fight back. I do think that bullies, or at least some individuals who are bullies, have the potential to be talked to. However, I think it's unlikely that they can be talked to by the person they're antagonizing, while they're in the process of antagonizing them. If you're being picked on, you have neither the responsibility, nor the ability, to redeem your tormentor. Concern yourself with your well-being, defend yourself, and leave the redemption to a professional counselor. No one has the obligation to act in the interest of someone who is acting against theirs (although I have deep respect for those who volunteer to do so). The difference between fighting back as a deterrent, and fighting back as moral superiority, is rather fine, and in the moment of fighting back, probably indistinguishable. But there are downstream effects of thinking of others (and especially of treating them) as less than human, or even as inferior to you. Thinking that the current situation will never change blinds you to ways to change it, and in the long-term, that results in things failing to change.
• chrischen 16y ago
  Why do we encourage more violence when we can just get schools to tolerate bullying less, and then encourage kids to report the bullying. I mean if they're shoving food in your mouth and throwing things at you they should be expelled. Sure you should defend yourself if someone is physically about to harm you but I think most kids being bullied don't do this because they are weaker/outnumbered and it's just going to anger the bullies more. The smart thing to do is to report them because the system shouldn't tolerate them.
• ScottBurson 16y ago
  The "love the bully" approach actually worked for me on one occasion. But you know, if it hadn't worked, I wouldn't feel bad about slugging him back.
• pinaceae 16y ago
  I agree and can confirm the effectiveness of this approach. My dad saw me being bullied in kindergarten. Rather than stopping the bullying himself, he taught me how to do a choke-hold. The next day he had to pick me up earlier as I was accused of violent behavior - for choking the bully until he turned blue. This lesson, learned so early, helped me a lot in later school life as I was that overweight small kid with thick glasses. And every time someone tried to bully me, I simply slammed my elbow in their nuts. Kids can be mean monsters, they can be worse than any grown up. They have no idea how much harm they are causing. Defending yourself against predators is a very important lesson in life.
• WalterBright 16y ago
  It's essentially the tit-for-tat response, which turns out to be a very effective strategy for all sorts of things, not just bullies.
• postfuturist 16y ago
  If you really want to fight back, fight smart and fight dirty, call the police immediately after anything illegal (violence and threats of violence are illegal). File a report with the police after they arrive, photograph any bruises, etc. Upon repeat or grievous offenses, file appropriate lawsuits against the school and parents of bully. Yeah, it's lame, but not as lame as fighting fire with fire.
• MoreMoschops 16y ago
  The off-topic HN posts are getting silly. This isn't coding, or business, or some kind of cool interesting hack. It's not even interesting and could be summed up in a few words instead of a long, rambling .... ah, fuck it, HN is over anyway.
• bhoung 16y ago
  It's a fine line really, knowing when to fight back, retort or walk away. If you never teach/encourage your son how to hold their own, then you are doing them a disfavor. Probably the caveat I would throw in is that the older your child is, the higher the stakes are (in physical terms), and the more likely something very ugly will result.
• TallGuyShort 16y ago
  This guy is right on. I have a brother who is very reserved and quiet, and would be the last person you would expect to get in a fight. He and I were both bullied when we were little, and he had this one guy that would never give him a break. One day it went too far and my brother decided to involve a cricket bat. Teachers came and broke up the fight, they both got taken to the principals office, etc... My brother was willing to apologize, but of course the bully just kept being a dick in front of the principal. Brother? Got off the hook. Bully? Suspended - never bothered him again.
• othello 16y ago
  Funny that the standard response is to fight back the bullying kids. Another possible reaction is to outsmart them. Just make fun of them. Make them the laughing stock of the whole class. Bully them verbally. Make fun of them and suddenly you'll become more popular - which will likely insulate you from any further bullying. Maybe I was lucky, but this strategy worked wonders for me back in the days. I'm sincerly surprised that a community as educated as HN only suggests brute force as an effective response to school bullying.
  • pjscott 16y ago
    That's easy to say, but very hard for socially awkward bullied kids to actually implement. If you could even think about making a bully "the laughing stock of the whole class", then you were exceptional among victims.
• anigbrowl 16y ago
  This is wrong. But son, as soon as someone puts their hands on you, they’ve crossed a line. Fuck them up. It’s the only thing these vicious freaks understand. They’re wild animals. They make violence on you, you need to show them that you’re the stronger, bigger animal. When someone attacks you maliciously for no reason, you need to impose your will on them. All unwelcome contact is considered to be enemy contact, and nuclear retaliation is offered as the solution. And yet not all contact is roughhousing, not all roughhousing is bullying, and not all bullying justifies maximum retaliation. Of course, implicit in this advice is the ability to distinguish how offensive or aggressive an unwanted contact actually is, and to measure one's response appropriately...exactly the sort of thing kids (usually) learn by experience, but (frequently) miss when receiving knowledge transmissions from a trusted moral authority. This is not an argument for pacifism or passivity: I am well aware that not all aggressive people secretly want to be loved or are just having difficulty making polite conversation. I was a small child and remain a fairly small adult; I've been bullied (in school) and attacked by various street criminals (as an adult) - more than most people, I'd guess. I dislike fights and haven't started one since age 8 or so, but I will finish one if it is forced upon me, and also enjoy non-competitive martial arts (ie fighting with other students for enjoyment of skill rather than pursuit of belts). Going all-out in response to attack is a poor strategy, rooted in fear rather than confidence. It may not be appropriate in the first place; indeed, bullies and criminals frequently exhibit a victim mentality and complain that the target of their aggression 'made them do it.' Overlooking this factor assures that sooner or later a person will end up wondering how s/he ended up being the bad gal/guy - if not for physical fighting, then in an employment or domestic context. Secondly, it may not be necessary: the aim of self-defense is to end the confrontation and deter future attacks, and most attacks are experimental or opportunistic. Such opponents will quickly fold in face of equivalent resistance, and often when confronted with far less (eg a push in response to a punch). Violently revenging your hurt feelings, rather than merely defending your hurt person, forces your attacker into defending themselves with an least an equivalent degree of fervor. You win by holding your ground and seeing your opponent quit; to withholding this option is to rob yourself of your own victory. No outcome that takes place under duress yields certainty to the immediate beneficiary. Thirdly, if your attacker is serious and dangerous, then going all-out can be quite dangerous. Such moves are more apparent and less calculated, and an experienced opponent can easily exploit this to use your own strength against you. Having been on both ends of this equation, I feel comfortable in saying that the person who loses their temper will lose any resulting fight too. Conflicts are mental problems, to which the physical aspects are often only a footnote.
• Figs 16y ago
  Given current events, I'm surprised this wasn't about the TSA.
• jrockway 16y ago
  Yeah, good idea. If someone bullies you, just bring some guns and bombs to school. The result is always positive.
• chrisclark1729 16y ago
  Statistically speaking, I would say this is not bad advice. My guess is that less than 5% of bullies are prepared to actually fight. Therefore, even if you are setting your kid up for a beating it's only likely to happen with 4% or so of bullies. I would say this lean risk is far preferable to the daily torment that comes along with consistent bullying. Just a different take on it. Comments have been good otherwise.
• jchonphoenix 16y ago
  Agreed. Bullies are animals. The only thing they respond to is something so simple that they can understand it. If you try to explain that society expects more of them and they are disappointing society by not being a contributing member, you will fail because they are too dense to understand. They do, however, understand violence. And if they cross the line, don't hesitate. Fight back. Otherwise you risk being branded an easy target.
• dnautics 16y ago
  Four words: Iterated Prisoner's Dilemma; Retaliating. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoners_dilemma#The_iterated_prisoner.27s_dilemma http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoners_dilemma#The_iterated_...
• CrabDude 16y ago
  Working as a Resident Advisor at Texas A&M, I once had a resident attack me and take a swing at me. He missed and I took him down in a headlock attempting to convince him to give up his attempts to land a hit on me. However, instead he continued to attempt to elbow me while he was in the headlock, at which point faced with the choice of subduing him or continuing to receive glancing blows, I chose to subdue him by punching him in the head until he gave up. After the whole ridiculous experience had passed, I was contacted later that night by my Hall Director and was brought before Residence Life for a hearing. They concluded that I should have run away from the student when he came at me, and because I chose to defend myself I was being terminated immediately. I'm fairly certain it's these sorts of ridiculous expectations that are being reinforced by our public education systems that are responsible for the passification of our populace. Like this author, to an extent I agree that to do good, you must defend yourself as necessary, regardless of the sociological consequences.
• dmn 16y ago
  I couldn't agree more with this article. My father was old school and told me to do whatever I needed to do (to not be bullied). Stand up for yourself and you gain respect for yourself and from others. (and it most likely wont happen again)
• zephjc 16y ago
  And never forget the old Klingon proverb: Revenge is a dish best served cold
• joelbm24 16y ago
  i agree with what he is saying. I don't believe in picking fights. I do believe in standing up for your self and others. If they say that they are gonna punch you call them on it ask them to punch you. The whole reason why they do it is because ppl turn around and walk away. i am 16 right now and have been training in various martial arts since i was 7 and i still get bullied, the difference is that i don't hesitate to fight. I also get angry when i see a bigger kid picking on smaller kids. When i see that i go and rough the bigger kid up a bit. From doing this i have seen a huge difference in the bullies at my school. on the note i do recommend going to the teacher first, but if that doesn't work then your on your own
• blhack 16y ago
  Maybe my experience with high school bulles is atypical. I went to a very small high school (my graduating class had 32 people in it), and I was also a big kid. I was (and am) 6'4", I played tennis constantly. Despite being in alright shape, I was definitely a "fat" kid, definitely a nerd, and I definitely took a lot of flak for it. Until I stopped taking flak for it. Bullies are just trolls in real life. Letting them make you feel dejected (or showing it) just feeds them...it's just like internet trolls. Responding back to them, not violently, but trolling them back meant that you were no longer a victim, but were just playing the same game. Eventually, I made friends with the kids that used to tease me. I really don't think that responding violently to bullies is the answer. That just further serves to enforce an "us" and "them" mentality. Bullying them back, just playing their game back at them makes it into a game. Eventually, at least for me, bullying turned into friendly jabbings.
• bg4 16y ago
  There was a mean, mean guy in my high school who endlessly bullied my sister and I (and many others). If I had thrown a punch at him, he would of beat me within an inch of my life. Years later I found out from a childhood friend that he was beaten regularly by his drunk of a father. He ended up himself in prison for repeat drunk driving/vehicular manslaughter Early on, I definitely felt a sense of schadenfreude at this news (him being in prison). As the years went on though, and having reaped the benefits of my circumstance for an good education, career, wife and a family, I can't help but reflect somewhat on his life and his circumstance. Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.
• pilif 16y ago
  Back in my school days, I was the constant victim of bullying (probably like many hoer geeks). I wasn't strong enough to hit back, and I also just could not get myself to hurt anybody. I still can't. And even when looking back at what has happened (trust me, the stories of this and the article this one links to are nothing), I pride myself on not falling back to the ways of a savage animal. I feel that it's deeply wrong to hurt anybody. How are you better than the bullies once you begin to hurt others? How do you make sure you don't cross the boundary between self-defense and being a bully yourself? Even though it might feel good. Do you really want to be what you hate? School is hard, but once you get to know people who respect you and take you for what you are (a nerd in my case), things get better and you will even feel pride for what you are instead of constantly hating yourself. Take comfort in the fact that you lived up to your ideals of humanity and be proud of what you have become. Use the brain you got for good instead of shutting it off for revenges sake. Be human.
• ern 16y ago
  When I was in high school, I was hassled a lot by a bully, who enjoyed showing off to the (largely female) class by bullying me. He also had the nasty habit of grabbing and crushing the testicles of other boys when cornered. One particularly bad day, after school, I went home, got a baseball bat (and ball, in case I was stopped by cops). Took a sidekick, went back to school, and looked for the bully. He ran back onto school grounds (I wasn't going to risk a suspension by going into school with a weapon), but I made sure that a few people in class knew I was looking for him. When I went into school the next day I got a grovelling apology from him, and was never bullied again. I was surprised by how well it worked. Looking back more than a decade, I cannot believe how incredibly foolish I was, but it convinced me that bullies are most effectively stopped by the most primitive means.
• jmtulloss 16y ago
  Why are there no bullies responding to this thread? Is HN really so one-sided that nobody that was a bully hangs around here?
• ilitirit 16y ago
  .
• ilitirit 16y ago
  I was only bullied once in school. I retaliated, give him a busted lip (he beat me harder, though), and noone messed with me after that again.
• radu_floricica 16y ago
  This is all so terribly foreign to me... almost nothing I read here makes sense. In the Romania I grew up in if you had serious trouble with other kids you just talked to the teachers or your parents, and they'd solve the problem. Worst case would be a parent to parent chat. I think I was under 10 when I upset a girl who lived next door. Don't remember really what I did, but I sure as hell remember her father chasing me three blocks, only to tell me very gently that it wasn't nice and he'll have to talk to my parents if I did it again.
• zan_shikai 16y ago
  Bullying doesnt stop when school ends. There are bullies everywhere you look, in your office, on the roads. If you learn to run away in school you will never learn to stand up for yourself
• biafra 16y ago
  I remember having two fights in my entire school time. One in elementary school and one in secondary school. Both were about what I would let others do to me. After both fights I never had to fight again in that school. I don't even remember if I had "won" or "lost". My parents let me do Judo and Ice Hockey at that time. I wasn't very strong or big but I learned some things in Judo class. Mostly how to fall and how bring someone down. I never liked fighting for my belts so I stopped doing Judo after a couple of years with the blue belt. I intend to give my son the opportunity to learn some martial arts too.
• utefan001 16y ago
  My son is 8 and had to deal with some minor bullying in 2nd grade. The best thing we ever did was sign our son up for tackle football at the end of 2nd grade. Now, when needed (so far only in football) he knows how to hit, get hit and not fear it.
• oemera 16y ago
  Wow I'm really shocked that this story is getting so much credits. First of all I'm 22 and not living US so I can only talk about growing up in Germany but there is one thing I learned growing up in Germany: Fist fighting is not a solution. I never used my fists in my entire live (!!) to beat someone cause I don't think it could change a situation into a better situation. I think we can all talk. Saying that it is what works because of our "animal nature" it's plane wrong. We would never live in this democratic world if everyone would use their fists to make things right. Also it is really URGENT to tell kids that this is not a solution cause this will never be a solution while getting older and sometime a job. At work it will not help you to beat someone if he/she is bullying around with you. You will lost your job if you do so. So please stop telling your kids a solution which only COULD (I don't think it works though) work in school. Worst thing what can happen is that your kids will try to solve every problem with a solution father told him/her. Last but not least I know very well how hard school can be for kids but developing a good personality needs downs and ups. We are all "nerds" and I think we know hard times really well. Thank you for listening.
• known 16y ago
  I think parents should be counseled when children are involved bullying.
• pmichaud 16y ago
  Although this particular experience wasn't physical in nature, I wrote an essay recently that argues the opposite: http://www.petermichaud.com/essays/your-inner-monster/ http://www.petermichaud.com/essays/your-inner-monster/ But I have to say, in an acutely dangerous situation, the right thing to do is physically defend yourself. Then you can love the person, if they are still alive.
• known 16y ago
  Children should be taught http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satyagraha http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satyagraha
• gabea 16y ago
  This is an excellent article. I was bullied when I was in highschool and guess what? I fought back and they backed down. It not only made me overcome the bullies, but it gave me greater confidence in my adult years to not take crap from anyone. Additionally people rarely change so those bullies you faced back in your childhood are sitting around you at your place of work as well. Do not let them have the time of day, and do not give in to them, fight back.
• chrisbennet 16y ago
  As my father told me, avoid the situation if you can but if you can't, the way to deal with the bully is to "Take the profit out of it." You simply have to make yourself an uninviting target. A rare trip the priciple's office is a fair price to pay for multiple years of freedom from bullying.