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A good example is SiriusXM. They give you a lowball initial offer, and the fine print says that at the end of the offer period the subscription will automatical

A good example is SiriusXM. They give you a lowball initial offer, and the fine print says that at the end of the offer period the subscription will automatically renew at "then current" rates. To cancel you have to call their 800 number (which of course will put you on hold long enough to make you give up.) MasterCard is making an awesome first step here. The next step is to insist that companies must let you cancel subscriptions online, just like this California law: https://www.cnet.com/news/companies-must-let-customers-cancel-subscriptions-online-california-law-says/ https://www.cnet.com/news/companies-must-let-customers-cance...

hackits 8y ago
Reason why I just using a 3rd party between the business and my credit card. Have no problem with a 3rd party taking a cut but standardizing the whole process through a single interface to cancel subscriptions services without needing to go through all the crap.
- ekanes 8y ago
  Sounds pretty cool - what service do you use?
  - jacob019 8y ago
    privacy.com works well for this sort of thing
    - ekianjo 8y ago
      Anything for non-US residents?
    - petilon 8y ago
      Citibank, BofA and others let you create virtual credit card numbers off of your actual credit card. These numbers can only be used by one merchant, and you can specify the max amount they are able to charge, as well as how many months the number is valid. You can delete your virtual number any time. What does privacy.com have that is better? https://www.cardbenefits.citi.com/Products/Virtual-Account-Numbers https://www.cardbenefits.citi.com/Products/Virtual-Account-N... https://www.bankofamerica.com/privacy/accounts-cards/shopsafe.go https://www.bankofamerica.com/privacy/accounts-cards/shopsaf...
      - jacob019 8y ago
        sounds the same, works with any bank account
toufiqbarhamov 8y ago
I’ve started stopping charges from my card rather than dealing with that kind of “customer service” ever again. When the company finds they literally can’t charge you, suddenly they have the time to call you. If you’ve tried to cancel a service, stopped using it, and stop payment... well, the rest is their problem.
- ekianjo 8y ago
  How do you stop individual payments? Is that something that you get as a service? Because in my (limited) experience in different countries I don't think I can do that.
  - gizmo686 8y ago
    My bank (Bank of America) lets you create temporary credit card numbers. They are linked directly to your actual card, but can be revoked individually.
    - codetrotter 8y ago
      I wish my bank offered that as well but another option offered in some countries including mine is to buy a prepaid MasterCard gift card. Now such gift cards aren’t perfect — you have to pay a bit extra, but for the purpose of signing up for a trial period with any company that automatically turns your trial into a subscription and which is known to make it difficult to cancel the trial it might be a good idea. However, before even signing up for a trial with a prepaid gift card one needs to be sure that one is not entering into an agreement that legally binds you to a subscription. I recently bought a prepaid gift card that I intend to use for a 7-day trial with a company that is known to make it difficult to cancel. But I will only sign up for the trial if the automatic subscription is not legally binding.
      - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
        > However, before even signing up for a trial with a prepaid gift card one needs to be sure that one is not entering into an agreement that legally binds you to a subscription. This gets to the heart of the matter: it shouldn’t be possible to sign up for a legally binding automatic subscription for a pure service. Customers should have the liberty to leave at any time without incurring a fee. If I can sign up in under a minute I ought to be able to leave in under a minute.
ekianjo 8y ago
> must let you cancel subscriptions online When I had a Xbox I remember that it was SUPER easy to register for Xbox Live Gold (online, done in a few mins, right from the console itself!), but then when you wanted to cancel... there was no menu anywhere. You had to go to the website, find an obscure page with a phone number you had to call, and spend 10 mins on the line with a representative to cancel your subscription. Needless to say, that was the last time ever Microsoft got my money with the Xbox.
- xnyan 8y ago
  The only way to get around this (in the united states) was to set your address to Chicago. I assume some local statute required this.
  - briandear 8y ago
    California requires this now as well: if you sign up online, you have to be able to cancel online.
  - WillPostForFood 8y ago
    You could always cancel online Setting your address to Illinois allowed to turn off auto-renew, which was not possible to do online otherwise.
Semaphor 8y ago
In Germany, everything has to have the option to cancel in the same way you signed up. So if you sign up online, you will be able to cancel online.
- peeters 8y ago
  That's such a sane, common-sense law. If a company has the resource to allow online payment processing, they sure as hell have the resources to allow online cancelling. So the only reason they wouldn't have it is to make it hard for you to cancel.
  - tyfon 8y ago
    I think this is common all over Europe. You also have the "right to regret" so within 14 days of buying stuff online you can cancel and refund it no questions asked by law. In fact, in my country there is also a requirement that the companies send you a information about this right and forms you can fill out to complete the request with the order confirmation.
    - Silhouette 8y ago
      You also have the "right to regret" so within 14 days of buying stuff online you can cancel and refund it no questions asked by law. Although this comes with some caveats. The consumer protection rules for distance selling are very strict in the EU, but if you're buying something like digital content, it's obviously not reasonable to say someone can pay today but can't then be provided with what they've just paid for for 14 days just in case they decide to cancel. The law does provide for giving up those cancellation rights and getting the content immediately, as long as it's clearly stated at the time of purchase that this is what you're doing.
      - tyfon 8y ago
        Yes, if you buy digital and download the content you can't refund, but that's about the only way you can "give up" the right i think?
xfitm3 8y ago
SiriusXM TOS says you are still liable for the charges in this case. It will be sent to collections.
- dawnerd 8y ago
  They won’t send to collections, not worth their time or money. It’s just a scare tactic. I blocked payments on them, no collections. Although they do still spam me with come back offers.
smsm42 8y ago
I've been using SiruisXM for years, and they have been more than happy to continue their lower initial price - or one very close to it - indefinitely, provided you call them once a year and threaten to cancel right here, right now. Why on earth they insist on this game instead of just giving me the price they and I both are happy to agree on is anybody's guess, nevertheless this is the case. I guess a lot of people give up and pay the higher price? Never had a problem with their service reps though. Answer times were reasonable and as long as you make it clear you'll really cancel if you'd not get a reasonable price, it didn't take a lot of time overall.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  > Why on earth they insist on this game instead of just giving me the price they and I both are happy to agree on is anybody's guess, nevertheless this is the case. Because you're not an individual customer to them. They look at customers as if they were a liquid, so they don't bother with individual liquid molecules. If the customers want to flow up, but they want them to flow left, they'll insert some stupid block in the flow path. It doesn't matter the liquid will splash, and some individual molecules will get lost. As long as most of the customers flow in the direction they need, that's all they care about.
- moduspol 8y ago
  Everyone in my family has been doing this for years. I even tried just asking the first person if there are any promos available, to try and skip the song and dance. But they said no. "OK, then I need to cancel." And you're sent over to someone who can get you back down to your prior rate. I always tell them that $5/mo per radio is the most I can justify paying, and it always works. Then set a reminder to call them again in a few months. Often they'll tell you directly to call back before the promo expires so they can ensure you get back on one. My next reminder is for February 15.
sgustard 8y ago
Tivo, a California company: "We currently don’t offer the ability to cancel service online." https://www.tivo.com/my-account/cancel https://www.tivo.com/my-account/cancel They deserve a public and vocal PR backlash over this.
- masonic 8y ago
  Same with the Wall St. Journal.
  - nmca 8y ago
    And "The Economist", was very annoyed/dissapointed to find that out
    - lorenzhs 8y ago
      You can just email them with your CRN saying that you wish to cancel. That's okay with me.
sl1ck731 8y ago
The worst is newspapers. 3rd parties bundle a bunch of them and you have to be sure you cancel all of them. You call and they will fight you about it and actively try their hardest to "lock you in for another 3 months at only x/mo."
kop316 8y ago
My fiancée got a new car that included SiriusXM and she activated the free trial. Sirius called the car via onstar to give her a sale pitch and try and get he to activate XM radio. When it happened while I was in the car, she said that was the third time they did that.

hackits 8y ago

Reason why I just using a 3rd party between the business and my credit card. Have no problem with a 3rd party taking a cut but standardizing the whole process through a single interface to cancel subscriptions services without needing to go through all the crap.

ekanes 8y ago
Sounds pretty cool - what service do you use?
- jacob019 8y ago
  privacy.com works well for this sort of thing
  - ekianjo 8y ago
    Anything for non-US residents?
  - petilon 8y ago
    Citibank, BofA and others let you create virtual credit card numbers off of your actual credit card. These numbers can only be used by one merchant, and you can specify the max amount they are able to charge, as well as how many months the number is valid. You can delete your virtual number any time. What does privacy.com have that is better? https://www.cardbenefits.citi.com/Products/Virtual-Account-Numbers https://www.cardbenefits.citi.com/Products/Virtual-Account-N... https://www.bankofamerica.com/privacy/accounts-cards/shopsafe.go https://www.bankofamerica.com/privacy/accounts-cards/shopsaf...
    - jacob019 8y ago
      sounds the same, works with any bank account

toufiqbarhamov 8y ago

I’ve started stopping charges from my card rather than dealing with that kind of “customer service” ever again. When the company finds they literally can’t charge you, suddenly they have the time to call you. If you’ve tried to cancel a service, stopped using it, and stop payment... well, the rest is their problem.

ekianjo 8y ago
How do you stop individual payments? Is that something that you get as a service? Because in my (limited) experience in different countries I don't think I can do that.
- gizmo686 8y ago
  My bank (Bank of America) lets you create temporary credit card numbers. They are linked directly to your actual card, but can be revoked individually.
  - codetrotter 8y ago
    I wish my bank offered that as well but another option offered in some countries including mine is to buy a prepaid MasterCard gift card. Now such gift cards aren’t perfect — you have to pay a bit extra, but for the purpose of signing up for a trial period with any company that automatically turns your trial into a subscription and which is known to make it difficult to cancel the trial it might be a good idea. However, before even signing up for a trial with a prepaid gift card one needs to be sure that one is not entering into an agreement that legally binds you to a subscription. I recently bought a prepaid gift card that I intend to use for a 7-day trial with a company that is known to make it difficult to cancel. But I will only sign up for the trial if the automatic subscription is not legally binding.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
      > However, before even signing up for a trial with a prepaid gift card one needs to be sure that one is not entering into an agreement that legally binds you to a subscription. This gets to the heart of the matter: it shouldn’t be possible to sign up for a legally binding automatic subscription for a pure service. Customers should have the liberty to leave at any time without incurring a fee. If I can sign up in under a minute I ought to be able to leave in under a minute.

ekianjo 8y ago

> must let you cancel subscriptions online When I had a Xbox I remember that it was SUPER easy to register for Xbox Live Gold (online, done in a few mins, right from the console itself!), but then when you wanted to cancel... there was no menu anywhere. You had to go to the website, find an obscure page with a phone number you had to call, and spend 10 mins on the line with a representative to cancel your subscription. Needless to say, that was the last time ever Microsoft got my money with the Xbox.

xnyan 8y ago
The only way to get around this (in the united states) was to set your address to Chicago. I assume some local statute required this.
- briandear 8y ago
  California requires this now as well: if you sign up online, you have to be able to cancel online.
- WillPostForFood 8y ago
  You could always cancel online Setting your address to Illinois allowed to turn off auto-renew, which was not possible to do online otherwise.

Semaphor 8y ago

In Germany, everything has to have the option to cancel in the same way you signed up. So if you sign up online, you will be able to cancel online.

peeters 8y ago
That's such a sane, common-sense law. If a company has the resource to allow online payment processing, they sure as hell have the resources to allow online cancelling. So the only reason they wouldn't have it is to make it hard for you to cancel.
- tyfon 8y ago
  I think this is common all over Europe. You also have the "right to regret" so within 14 days of buying stuff online you can cancel and refund it no questions asked by law. In fact, in my country there is also a requirement that the companies send you a information about this right and forms you can fill out to complete the request with the order confirmation.
  - Silhouette 8y ago
    You also have the "right to regret" so within 14 days of buying stuff online you can cancel and refund it no questions asked by law. Although this comes with some caveats. The consumer protection rules for distance selling are very strict in the EU, but if you're buying something like digital content, it's obviously not reasonable to say someone can pay today but can't then be provided with what they've just paid for for 14 days just in case they decide to cancel. The law does provide for giving up those cancellation rights and getting the content immediately, as long as it's clearly stated at the time of purchase that this is what you're doing.
    - tyfon 8y ago
      Yes, if you buy digital and download the content you can't refund, but that's about the only way you can "give up" the right i think?

xfitm3 8y ago

SiriusXM TOS says you are still liable for the charges in this case. It will be sent to collections.

dawnerd 8y ago
They won’t send to collections, not worth their time or money. It’s just a scare tactic. I blocked payments on them, no collections. Although they do still spam me with come back offers.

smsm42 8y ago

I've been using SiruisXM for years, and they have been more than happy to continue their lower initial price - or one very close to it - indefinitely, provided you call them once a year and threaten to cancel right here, right now. Why on earth they insist on this game instead of just giving me the price they and I both are happy to agree on is anybody's guess, nevertheless this is the case. I guess a lot of people give up and pay the higher price? Never had a problem with their service reps though. Answer times were reasonable and as long as you make it clear you'll really cancel if you'd not get a reasonable price, it didn't take a lot of time overall.

TeMPOraL 8y ago
> Why on earth they insist on this game instead of just giving me the price they and I both are happy to agree on is anybody's guess, nevertheless this is the case. Because you're not an individual customer to them. They look at customers as if they were a liquid, so they don't bother with individual liquid molecules. If the customers want to flow up, but they want them to flow left, they'll insert some stupid block in the flow path. It doesn't matter the liquid will splash, and some individual molecules will get lost. As long as most of the customers flow in the direction they need, that's all they care about.
moduspol 8y ago
Everyone in my family has been doing this for years. I even tried just asking the first person if there are any promos available, to try and skip the song and dance. But they said no. "OK, then I need to cancel." And you're sent over to someone who can get you back down to your prior rate. I always tell them that $5/mo per radio is the most I can justify paying, and it always works. Then set a reminder to call them again in a few months. Often they'll tell you directly to call back before the promo expires so they can ensure you get back on one. My next reminder is for February 15.

sgustard 8y ago

Tivo, a California company: "We currently don’t offer the ability to cancel service online." https://www.tivo.com/my-account/cancel https://www.tivo.com/my-account/cancel They deserve a public and vocal PR backlash over this.

masonic 8y ago
Same with the Wall St. Journal.
- nmca 8y ago
  And "The Economist", was very annoyed/dissapointed to find that out
  - lorenzhs 8y ago
    You can just email them with your CRN saying that you wish to cancel. That's okay with me.

sl1ck731 8y ago

The worst is newspapers. 3rd parties bundle a bunch of them and you have to be sure you cancel all of them. You call and they will fight you about it and actively try their hardest to "lock you in for another 3 months at only x/mo."

kop316 8y ago

My fiancée got a new car that included SiriusXM and she activated the free trial. Sirius called the car via onstar to give her a sale pitch and try and get he to activate XM radio. When it happened while I was in the car, she said that was the third time they did that.