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EFF Responds to Bird's Legal Threats to Boing Boing
- todipa 8y agoIs there no way to countersue Bird Scooter for economic harm?
- iaw 8y agoWhat economic harm have they caused?
- AnimalMuppet 8y agoThey've caused Boing Boing to burn a bunch of lawyers' time for no good reason.
- pdpi 8y agoMight have a case under SLAPP laws
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- jammygit 8y agoJust discovered that boingboing has one of the only readable, reasonable privacy policies I've ever seen on a news site https://boingboing.net/privacy https://boingboing.net/privacy Its not perfect and I wish there was an ad/sponsored post/tracking free paid version, but it was refreshing. Edit: has anyone ever seen one that just turns tracking off if you sign up? All I've ever seen is the removal of paywalls, sometimes ads, but never tracking
- usefulcat 8y ago> has anyone ever seen one that just turns tracking off if you sign up? Check out ars technica, I think they may offer that
- jammygit 8y agoI couldn't find such an option, where is it? Their policy looks pretty standard-creepy from all I could find
- Marsymars 8y agoYeah, and checked and couldn't find any mention of the feature outside of comments, which is weird, but I can confirm that when logged in and opening random articles, the only domains hit are arstechnica.com, arstechnica.net and cdn.arstechnica.net.
- usefulcat 8y agoI could have sworn they used to claim to offer no tracking for subscribers, but I can't find it now, so I guess either they changed that or it never was.
- cwkoss 8y agoI bet Bird's inventory is vanishing now that word is out, and they are legally flailing about to try it stop it in any way they can. Too bad I can't short them, it was a naive business model from the beginning.
- nradov 8y agoI hate those scooters. Went running with some friends in San Jose a few days ago and they were scattered all over the sidewalks. A real hazard for pedestrians. Hopefully cities will enforce strict rules against blocking sidewalks and confiscate any scooters left in unsafe spots.
- Johnny555 8y agoIn my neighborhood, while I do see the occasional scooter or bike share bike parked across the sidewalk, far more annoying are the cars parked in their "driveway" that block part or all of the sidewalk
- dragonwriter 8y agoThat's illegal, though, for exactly that reason, so I'm not sure what your point is, other than that you have a problem with scofflaws in your neighborhood.
- Johnny555 8y agoMy point is that scooters are not new offenders (or even the worst offenders) of blocking the sidewalk, but no one complains about the cars, that's just accepted.
- decebalus1 8y agoCars blocking anything (at least where I live, including driveways which are part of the sidewalk) have a very short TTL. Usually within 10-30 minutes the car is gone and some towing company is slightly happier.
- Johnny555 8y agoThere's lots of reasons to dislike DPT, but they sure are efficient at removing illegally parked cars.
- 8y ago
- tptacek 8y agoThis looks like a form-letter DMCA takedown thing (good tip-off: referring to Cory Doctorow as "one of your users") so while Boing Boing isn't wrong to refuse to honor it, making a galactic big deal out of the shock-and-awe caliber of their legal response has a weird feeling to it, sort of the same as Eric Raymond's "I'm your worst nightmare" response to a Microsoft recruiter form-email.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- ghaff 8y agoOn the other hand, there's value for those in the position to do so doing the shock-and-awe thing now and then. Pour encourager les autres in its proper ironical sense.
- shittyadmin 8y agoThis seems different because Bird was actually making a legal threat and knew what they were doing. That's why the EFF stepped up. What ESR did was play with a clueless HR person.
- sjroot 8y agoI wasn't familiar with the story of Microsoft and Eric Raymond, but I just went and read it. Man, that was very difficult to get through. For others who haven't read it: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=208 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=208
- qorrect 8y agoIt was a different time back then, hardware vendors had to sign exclusivity agreements, they were in general big bullies back in the day.
- sjroot 8y agoESR paints himself as a big bully here too. If that is how he interacts with other people, then it helps me to understand why he dropped out of school and never really had a traditional job. (Note: I had to find that info on Wikipedia because I have never heard of this guy; ironic considering he touted starting the open-source movement and likened himself to Richard Stallman and Linus Torvalds). I am very very thankful that our industry has evolved beyond this type of character.
- ada1981 8y agoBoing Boing should crowdfund some money to convert a bunch of scooters and give them away outside Bird HQ.
- cwkoss 8y agoThat would actually be illegal. EDIT: Missed that you can buy them from impound lots - that would be legal. Converting one you found on the street would not.
- charonn0 8y agoWhy? Assuming the scooters are being bought at auction from impound lots like the article says.
- cwkoss 8y agoAh, I didn't realize that the scooters can be legally obtained from an impound lot. Very clever!
- dragonwriter 8y agoNo, it wouldn't. It would be illegal to steal scooters for that (or any other, because theft) purpose, but a central part of the discussion and the original story is that they are available at police auction because they keep getting seized.
- j0nathanB 8y agoAre the actual scooters worth the effort?
- dweekly 8y agoOPG v Diebold suggests a countersuit under 502(f) would prevail in this case. (Disclaimer: I was a plaintiff in this case, we won, EFF were our lawyers.)
- otterley 8y agoOnly to the extent any damages are incurred as a result of removing or disabling access to the content, which hasn't happened. See 17 U.S.C. 512(f)(2) (emphasis mine): (2) that material or activity was removed or disabled by mistake or misidentification, shall be liable for any damages, including costs and attorneys’ fees, incurred by the alleged infringer, by any copyright owner or copyright owner’s authorized licensee, or by a service provider, who is injured by such misrepresentation, as the result of the service provider relying upon such misrepresentation in removing or disabling access to the material or activity claimed to be infringing, or in replacing the removed material or ceasing to disable access to it.
- CamperBob2 8y agoHow is this not a simple case of barratry?
- otterley 8y agoNo litigation has taken place yet.
- dweekly 8y agoThe countersuit wouldn't be to quantify damages from its removal (since not removed) but rather a preliminary injunction seeking declarative relief that the takedown was found invalid.
- otterley 8y agoI guess you could file a claim for injunctive relief in anticipation of a suit, but that sounds like a waste of time and attorney's fees IMO. Also, you can't counterclaim unless you are a defendant, and you don't need to counterclaim to have such a claim tossed anyway. All the defendant would have to do is file a 12(b)(6) motion (failure to state a claim) in response to the original pleading.
- YeGoblynQueenne 8y agoBird's laywer is called Linda Kwak? Is that some kind of practical joke, now?
- asdfasgasdgasdg 8y agoIt's a common Korean name.
- YeGoblynQueenne 8y agoIt looks like some people took offense with my comment but I had no reason to think that Linda Kwak is a Korean name. I can see from her profile picture on Linkedin that she is, indeed, Asian. If that's what caused the downvotes, that people felt offended, thinking I was making an ethnic joke, then I'm really sorry.
- swebs 8y ago>If that's what caused the downvotes, that people felt offended, thinking I was making an ethnic joke, then I'm really sorry. No, we get that it was a bird quack joke. It's just that jokes and puns don't really add to the discussion, and are better suited to places like reddit.
- YeGoblynQueenne 8y agoIf that is the case, then the downvotes are misplaced. The HN Guidelines say nothing about humour (good or bad) in comments. Perhaps some users feel that joking is forbidden because we are all serious and important scientists and engineers here, but that is just a personal and subjective opinion. Now, finding that my joke was a bad joke, I can understand and appreciate, but that business about "this isn't reddit" has got to stop. We are not reddit. Everyone knows that. Reddit probably knows that. The HN guidelines in fact have something to say about that sort of misconception. There's no reason not to crack a joke now and then. To be a serious person doesn't mean to have a stick up one's arse. Edit: Anyway the point is really not the karma and the downvotes. I was simply worried that my joke was taken as targeting Korean people, which was not at all in my mind. If someone got offended because they don't like people joking on HN, well, guys, are there more of you than my karma? If not, tough.
- supernova87a 8y ago“Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed: everything else is public relations.” George Orwell
- mesofile 8y agoPossibly spurious: see http://blogs.umb.edu/quoteunquote/2012/09/25/even-if-it-looks-sounds-walks-and-quacks-like-an-orwell-quote-it-still-might-not-be-an-orwell-quote/ http://blogs.umb.edu/quoteunquote/2012/09/25/even-if-it-look...
- SilasX 8y agoThe attribution might be spurious; the insight isn't.
- mesofile 8y agoI thought the quote was pithy, but it didn't quite sound like Orwell to me (who I have read a lot of, though not recently). "What someone else doesn't want printed" is a formulation that doesn't quite mean _truth_; Orwell felt seriously about the journalist's responsibility to be truthful and it seemed like he might have made a finer distinction. Quick search and lo. Orwell is claimed by partisans of all kinds due to his great reputation as a moral thinker and his willingness to criticize political actors & ideologies across the spectrum. Consequently his writings are often misquoted, misattributed or taken out of context. The "rough men stand ready to do violence on our behalf" one is a classic example.
- linguistbreaker 8y agoThe concept of truth is notably absent from this quote though. Printing what someone doesn't want printed is just as likely public relations. I get that what it's (probably) going for is bringing truth to light but truth is exactly what seems to be so slippery these days.
- ChrisSD 8y agoSpuriously attributing quotes to Orwell is a long standing tradition. As Abraham Lincoln said: "The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity".
- bitxbitxbitcoin 8y agoIt’s like the Bird team has never heard of the Streisand Rffect before.
- bogomipz 8y agoCan anyone say what the common source of the impounding of these scooters is landlords, parking enforcement, business owners? Couldn't any "dockless" transportation device technically be considered abandoned once a user get's off of it leaves it where it lies? In the absence of having agreements with the local municipality could this be a fatal flaw in the business model? It seems like there could be an "incentivized" marketplace for the proactive impounding and subsequent auctioning of these no?
- VectorLock 8y agoSounds like a lot of cities are handling them like abandoned cars. Honestly I'd love to find an auction with these.
- ada1981 8y agoAnyone have leads on where to buy these at auction?
- jzl 8y agoSo, simple question, but: what is the legal reason I, not a customer of Bird and having never signed an EULA in their app, can't just take a Bird scooter off the street and just keep it in my house, even as decoration without modifying it? What law protects a business model that relies on leaving property all around town, completely unencumbered? (I know about the police auctions, but that's not the question here.)
- rebuilder 8y agoWouldn't that be the same legal reason you can't just take any scooter off the street and keep it in your house?
- jzl 8y agoBut, why not? Let's say a (regular) scooter or even bicycle has been sitting on the sidewalk for a couple of days. Is it illegal for me to consider it abandoned and just take it? Consider the case of an item that actually is abandoned. Don't property owners have some amount of legal responsibility to not leave an item in public unlocked? Granted, "unlocked" might be the key. You can't ride a Bird scooter without the app. But it isn't exactly locked in the same way as a bicycle. [Downvoters: I'm not saying that I think I should be able to grab a Bird off the street, I just want to hear the legal explanation of how this works.]
- rebuilder 8y agoI think this would be a jurisdiction-specific question. Where I live, you are not entitled to just keep found items, but should return them to lost and found instead.
- e1ven 8y agoAbandoned property laws vary by jurisdiction. Typically they involve reporting it to the police/authorities.
- chipotle_coyote 8y agoYes, it is illegal for you to consider it abandoned. In the US, at least, "abandoned" has a specific legal meaning which involves intent: "Abandoned property refers to any personal property left by an owner who has intentionally relinquished all rights to its control. When property is intentionally abandoned, it belongs to no one until it is found and when it is found, the title (ownership) transfers to whoever finds it and possesses it with the intent to take ownership." https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/abandoned-personal-property.html https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/abandoned-per... Property owners don't have any legal responsibility not to leave an item in public unlocked. That might be careless, but it's not illegal.
- the_common_man 8y agoCan I take a (working) scooter on the street and use the 30 USD kit? After all, it's an item on the street. What legal action can Bird take? Just curious.. Can I take legal action if I throw my stuff around the street and then start taking legal action if someone re-uses it?
- 1024core 8y ago> Can I take a (working) scooter on the street and use the 30 USD kit? After all, it's an item on the street. No, just like you can't take someone's bicycle or a stroller if the owner isn't nearby.
- gamblor956 8y agoVery different. With other bicyle's or strollers, you have the presumption of private ownership--that someone else owns them, was using them, and intends to keep using them without interruption of their ability to do so. But Birds, Jumps, et al, have deliberately left their scooters in public spaces for others to use. And that makes all the difference, legally.
- Dylan16807 8y agoYou're being quite disingenuous in multiple threads about this. They're not left out for anyone to use. They let certain people use the scooters after getting explicit permission.
- gamblor956 8y agoNope, not being disengenous. You can use the scooters without paying or getting permission in the app first, you simply lose the benefit of the electric boost. Source: there are a dozen in front of my office and I just used one to go a block without using the app. Works fine if you're willing to use human power.
- Dylan16807 8y ago
- stevespang 8y ago. . . Under current U.S. admiralty law, which conforms to international salvage law as laid out in the Salvage Convention of 1989, assistance rendered another vessel is considered salvage when: 1) the assisted vessel is subject to a reasonable apprehension of marine peril; 2) the assistance is voluntary; and 3) the assistance is successful in whole or part. A successful salvor is NOT entitled to just keep the salved vessel, under any circumstances, but is entitled to a generous award. GENEROUS AWARD ? . . . imagine if marine law was applied to city streets . . . http://www.wavetrain.net/techniques-a-tactics/492-salvage-law-when-do-get-to-keep-an-abandoned-boat http://www.wavetrain.net/techniques-a-tactics/492-salvage-la...
- MistahKoala 8y agoBird's lawyer's name is 'Kwak'.
- darepublic 8y agoIf wishing to hurt Bird someone could litter the town with look alike scooters that Are seemingly unlocked by the app but are modified to be extremely slow.
- jsjdnfmd 8y agoPhew, so many people would probably argue that a locked bike isn't my property once I leave it on the street. After staying in Norway, where people leave MacBooks unattended, and doors and bikes unlocked, it riddles me how tolerant other societies are when it comes to theft.
- chx 8y agoAnyone remembers Monster vs Blue Jeans Audio / Kurt Denke? When a bigger company tries to legally bullshit the small guy and it falls very very flat. > Not only am I unintimidated by litigation; I sometimes rather miss it. https://www.audioholics.com/news/blue-jeans-strikes-back https://www.audioholics.com/news/blue-jeans-strikes-back