15 ms·

Long Life Vehicle

247 points by keeganjw 8y ago

stevenwoo 8y ago
One thing that is not mentioned is the actual mileage of the vehicles in use is only 10 miles per gallon. Also rural carriers seem to be mostly now to be private vehicles sometimes with the magnetic sticker on the side indicating a postal service vehicle.
- FlyMoreRockets 8y ago
  Postal trucks are based on the Chevy/GM S-10 platform. I wonder what is unique about them, other than the body shell, right hand drive and smaller wheels.
  - newnewpdro 8y ago
    If you lower and shorten an S-10, reduce the tire diameter by something like 40%, and stick an aluminum body on it, you've created a very unique driving experience in terms of acceleration and handling. I bet they're a lot of fun to drive.
    - s0rce 8y ago
      right hand drive too
    - AmVess 8y ago
      I wouldn't bet on that. I owned a vehicle that had the same engine and was lighter, and it was a complete slug. Also, the tech underneath these is almost 40 years old, and was bad when new. These have no AC, so imagine driving one all day in 90F heat. I'm sure they all have a bazillion miles on them by now and are in poor repair.
      - newnewpdro 8y ago
        Ouch, the venerable iron duke, probably pretty awful indeed. Still, if it's optimized for the low-speed stop & go stuff it'll just suck to go on highways but I'd expect it to be decent on the surface streets. That motor was a real heap though, damn the 80s were rough for GM.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        AmVess 8y ago
        GM was in a pretty bad spot for a long time. The car I had was in the junkyard by 80k miles, and it was well taken care of. I ended up in a same year Honda that never had a single malfunction in 120k + miles.
  - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
    The smaller wheels are what really does it for reliability. You can't really hurt anything when you can't get the drive-line loaded up with tons of torque because you just peel out. The Chevy 10b rear axle in those S10s is a complete turd. It's like the Toyota pickup frame or Ford 6.0 of rear axles. But with small enough tires and deep gears it's impossible to hurt them before you break traction. Everything else is just an S10. The front suspension is pretty meh. Compared to every other small pickup platform on the market in the US at the time there is nothing special to recommend it. It's basically an 80s GM car that's been narrwed (G body IIRC??). For sheer durability what you'd find in a 90s Ranger or 1st gen Explorer far eclipses it (doesn't handle as nice though) in basically every way. When you've got a maintenance department replacing the seriously worn stuff it doesn't matter that much. The S10 platform isn't perfect in this regard but it certainly gets the job done. It doesn't have to go get airborne. It just needs to handle bumping over curbs at 5-15mph. The engine is pretty reliable. It doesn't make enough power to hurt anything and it can't move enough air to spin fast enough to hurt itself and doesn't have any Achilles heels to make it unreliable. Same story as basically ever other domestic iron block and iron head OHV engine of the era. From the transmission's perspective being in the LLV is a really easy life. The engine doesn't make much power the rear is geared deep and the stop/start duty cycle doesn't allow for much heat buildup. Pretty much any trans is going to be highly reliable in that setting. In retrospect a 1st gen Explorer (basically the Ranger with a couple upgrades) would hand have been the better platform as far as chassis/suspension/axles go. Seriously, I can't over-emphasize this. The S10 has nothing to recommend it and a few strikes against it when it comes to all the components from the frame down whereas the Explorer is the undisputed winner in terms of chassis/suspension/axles from that time period. I think the GM options for 4cyl engines and automatic transmissions were better from a long term reliability perspective. GM basically set out to use their parts bin to build the most reliable S10 they could and they're not idiots so they succeeded. The performance goals and acceptable trade-offs are totally different from that of a consumer vehicle so they had a lot more room to make compromises and make the system more reliable.
- jerrysievert 8y ago
  There are still some postal service rural vehicles. My normal carrier drives a red Jeep Cherokee with permanently mounted flashing lights, but what makes it special is its right-hand drive. Her subs tend to drive minivans, or sometimes a white Jeep, all with left-hand drive, magnetic stickers, and magnetic flashing light.
- rz2k 8y ago
  An electric vehicle with very good regenerative braking would probably be much more efficient, but I imagine that any internal combustion powered vehicle that accelerates and decelerates as often as a mail carrier is going to have terrible effective gas mileage.
- refurb 8y ago
  The mileage probably has more to do with the use than the design, no? Starting a vehicle, driving it 30 ft to the next mailbox, the repeating hundreds of times a day probably kills mileage for any vehicle.
  - llukas 8y ago
    Not for electric one ;)
  - r00fus 8y ago
    Unless that vehicle is a hybrid. Hybrids’ mileage goes way up for start/stop unless it requires a complete cool down. No reason today the fleet shouldn’t be mainly hybrid or EV.
cat199 8y ago
"Until the 1980s, when postal officials looked to buy new vehicles for the service, they combed through existing models for one that best fit their needs." Bit too young to have a clear memory, but I thought they were usually jeeps? Or maybe this was because there were alot of surplus jeeps in those days since the jeep was still heavily used in the military?
- zrail 8y ago
  Not surplus Jeep stock as much as surplus capacity for building more Jeeps. IIRC most of the USPS Jeeps were right hand drive.
  - LyndsySimon 8y ago
    Yep. Mail Jeeps (DJs) are somewhat collectible these days.
- moioci 8y ago
  I didn't remember this, but you're right. https://about.usps.com/who-we-are/postal-history/vehicles-gallery-details.htm#p=19 https://about.usps.com/who-we-are/postal-history/vehicles-ga... What I remember was more like the Studebaker here: https://about.usps.com/who-we-are/postal-history/vehicles-gallery-details.htm#p=21 https://about.usps.com/who-we-are/postal-history/vehicles-ga...
- jachee 8y ago
  They were quite often Jeeps up to the 80's. Usually DJ Models. [0] [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeep_DJ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeep_DJ
iscrewyou 8y ago
I see one of these everyday during my lunch but I never connected the dots that these were likely special made and are likely very old. I will look at it differently during my lunch today.
m23khan 8y ago
very interesting read. US Postal service had some rigorous requirements and these trucks are definitely an engineering feat. Here in Canada, the Canada Post trucks are similar looking too.
- bryanlarsen 8y ago
  According to wikipedia, it is the same vehicle. It looks like we've chosen a different replacement than USPS, though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_LLV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_LLV
  - m23khan 8y ago
    thx Bryan!
  - stan_rogers 8y ago
    We don't need to worry so much about the "not American" thing. The Transit is a proven, off-the-shelf product... but while Ford, it's European. That's not going to fly south of the border.
lb1lf 8y ago
I was puzzled for an instant as to why on earth would they be RHD, until I realised that this enables the driver to deliver mail without having to get out in the street and walk around the vehicle, thus being both safer and more efficient.
detaro 8y ago
Other examples: While I couldn't find a source quickly, I'd guess the typical brown UPS truck is a custom design, as are their newer, electric(?) variants? German Post/DHL couldn't get the car industry to make them an affordable electric delivery vehicle, so they bought an electric vehicle startup out of RWTH Aachen and made their own (now also starting to sell these to others, although I think they're teaming up with Ford to produce more of them)
- blattimwind 8y ago
  Most of the UPS vehicles in Germany are Mercedes Benz diesels, but they are of course not stock. Same for DHL (though many of the smaller delivery vans are VW, some of which are actually MB). MB diesels ("Oelmotoren") are just reliable as heck. Afaik all of these are standard transmission.
- indemnity 8y ago
  NZ Post use these things (Paxster), and I always laugh my ass off when they’re scooting past. https://www.nzpost.co.nz/about-us/sustainability/electric-vehicles-powering-deliveries https://www.nzpost.co.nz/about-us/sustainability/electric-ve...
  - dingaling 8y ago
    I really don't like the idea of a 200kg powered vehicle on the pavements. Have there been pedestrian objections? In the UK postmen have a large 'pram' that they push on the pavements and which are often found bicycle-chained to lamps whilst the postie visits a cul de sac.
    - Symbiote 8y ago
      I think those "prams" have a battery assist, although they're presumably limited to walking pace. In Copenhagen, the postmen ride electric cargo bicycles [1], but mostly on the cycle paths. As with most bicycles, they just lock the rear wheel to the frame[2] if it's left for a while. [1] https://www.dreamstime.com/editorial-photo-postnord-copenhagen-denmark-nd-november-mail-man-delivery-bike-photo-francis-joseph-dean-deanpictures-image79872961 https://www.dreamstime.com/editorial-photo-postnord-copenhag... [2] https://bicycles.stackexchange.com/questions/54206/how-to-lock-up-a-bike-with-a-rear-wheel-lock https://bicycles.stackexchange.com/questions/54206/how-to-lo...
mannykannot 8y ago
Grumman became informally known as the Grumman Iron Works for its rugged airplanes.
- reaperducer 8y ago
  I find that interesting because every time I hear "Grumman" I think of the big brouhaha in the 1980's in New York City. The MTA ordered dozens? hundreds? of new "flexible buses" from Grumman and within months they all cracked down the middle. There was a transit shortage while the buses were sent out to Long Island to be repaired. It was a very long time ago, and Google fails me right now, so I'm not sure what the exact problem was, or what exactly a "flexible bus" meant. The only thing I can think of is that was the term of the day for articulated bus.
  - johnmaguire2013 8y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flxible_Metro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flxible_Metro
    - reaperducer 8y ago
      Thanks for that. Here's the relevant paragraph: The Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA), in whose buses where the first cracked A-frame problem was noticed in early December 1980 at their Ulmer Park Depot, yanked its NYC Transit Authority fleet for the first time in 1980 (a separate batch for MSBA was built with the problem rectified the next year) and sued Grumman. This lawsuit would result in a settlement to fix all 870 buses built until that time (2,656 examples in all), along with an early termination of the build contract where the final 200 buses of the order were transferred to General Motors.
- joncp 8y ago
  And their indestructible canoes (that weighed a ton).
  - dingaling 8y ago
Latteland 8y ago
Good job in 1980s. They have probably already considered the replacements and I think it will be a difficult choice. It is probably too early to switch to electric vehicles. I think (without any real info) they should shoot for investigating electric vehicles in 3 years. In 3 years the cost benefits will have conclusively gone to EVs, but just as important Congress and conservatives should be okay with with one of those newfangled "gasless carriages".
- Xylakant 8y ago
  Most postal delivery in somewhat urban environment is a prime case for electric vehicles: low mileage per day, lots of stop and go, low average and low top speed combine with a central spot where vehicles can be charged for extended periods. It’s not a coincidence that DHL is operating a large electric fleet.
reaperducer 8y ago
Those little trucklings are durable as heck. A few months ago I saw one bounding across the desert scrubland between two remote ranches knocking tumbleweeds out of its way like it was channeling a monster truck. Amusing a heck to me. Probably not to anyone on the receiving end of a package marked "Fragile."
- newnewpdro 8y ago
  Your description reminds me of our FedEx guy here on dirt/sand roads near Joshua Tree National Park. He drives one of the smaller box trucks, from the sound of it I assume it's a gas V8. It's always towards the end of the day and he's clearly in a hurry to finish his final deliveries in an empty truck and it's like seeing a FedEx truck compete in a rally race. I can hear him coming a mile away with the taps wide open, and the thing is fishtailing and bouncing all over the place blasting across the desert at 80+ MPH. None of the locals I've seen, not even the guys on ATVs, sustain the FedEx guy's pace.
  - yowlingcat 8y ago
    Something about this makes me laugh uncontrollably. I think it's bringing up the very fond memories of playing The Simpsons: Road Rage (a lightly branded reskinning of Crazy Taxi for Gamecube) as a middle schooler and deliberately doing the most absurd stuff to see what the wacky physics engine would allow. The answer is: quite a lot. The idea of a FedEx driver doing the same thing in real life just sounds goofy to me. I suppose the novelty must wear off after a while.
    - toast0 8y ago
      FYI, Simpsons: road rage was not a reskin, it was developed by an unrelated team (and Sega sued for patent infringement, the case was settled for an undisclosed amount)
      - yowlingcat 8y ago
        No kidding! Just looked it up and found this: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/news051203segasuit https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/news051203segasuit I was under the erroneous assumption that it was an officially sanctioned clone. Little did I know...
matte_black 8y ago
Do these ever get sold off to the public?
- Eric_WVGG 8y ago
  Yup. I saw one parked next to an ice cream truck last summer. Exact same truck.
- s0rce 8y ago
  Yes, here was one: https://www.govdeals.com/?fa=Main.Item&itemid=6463&acctid=357#media https://www.govdeals.com/?fa=Main.Item&itemid=6463&acctid=35... Doesn't look like any are listed at the moment.
  - matte_black 8y ago
    Wow they are cheap!!
- voxadam 8y ago
  I've seen them available at auction in the past. https://autoauctions.gsa.gov/GSAAutoAuctions/ https://autoauctions.gsa.gov/GSAAutoAuctions/ https://www.govdeals.com/ https://www.govdeals.com/ https://www.publicsurplus.com https://www.publicsurplus.com https://craigslist.org https://craigslist.org
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
costcopizza 8y ago
With the amount of stop and go, these things are begging for at least a hybrid power train. I’ve heard they’re very uncomfortable inside during summer temps. Also, long live the Iron Duke!
jtokoph 8y ago
Interesting video with a hypothetical redesign of the trucks: https://youtu.be/6oDVsf29tyk https://youtu.be/6oDVsf29tyk
- stcredzero 8y ago
  I was just about to post a link to that video! I think it's mostly spot on. tl;dr -- It would be better to replace those things, and Tesla is probably the company to do it!
- sokoloff 8y ago
  Right hand drive is a safety feature for roadside mailbox delivery. Eliminating that does not seem like a good idea at all.
- rhn_mk1 8y ago
  It's interesting how they list problems with gas mileage and fire safety in the previous model, and they conclude that a redesign is needed to correct the flaws, and then proceed to start off with adding features like replaceable cargo area, additional doors and airbags. I stopped watching when they recommended integrating tablets as something that should increase longevity.
adanto6840 8y ago
My father was a postal delivery worker for some 35+ years (with a law degree, LOL) and I distinctly recall him loving his "LLV". He maybe took it a bit too seriously, but I also recall him occasionally getting "new" test vehicles and hating them compared to his trusty LLV (and it makes me chuckle to recall him often saying 'LLV' out loud & quite proudly; we just thought he was geeky, even if technically accurate). He absolutely loved these vehicles though. The only consistent complaint he had was their winter performance -- they would get stuck extremely easily, and my recollection was that he'd have to be "pulled out" 1-3 times during most winters. We were in the midwest, so typically somewhat moderate winters (perhaps a bit less so 20-30 years ago now), but just a bit of snow or ice and they could get hung up pretty easily. I recall the wheels being tiny, and the tires tending towards the bald side, so maybe was preventable but nonetheless they would quite quickly send someone to pull LLVs out any time they got hung up! Edit -- They also have an incredibly distinct 'whir' sound when in reverse; it's truly unmistakable and 20+ years later I can still identify one by that sound. My father's route included our neighborhood so he'd have a "cookie break" when he dropped our mail off & take his lunch at home, too; the unique reverse sound was an instant giveaway that the LLV was backing into the driveway. Good memories. :)
- pm90 8y ago
  Why did your father become a postal delivery worker if he had a law degree? Its a rather personal question so please don't feel like you have to answer, but it seems like a non-traditional career path.
  - michaelchisari 8y ago
    I can't speak for his father, but knowing both lawyers and postal workers, I can say that the postal workers are infinitely more satisfied with their careers, hands down.
    - drdeadringer 8y ago
      A cousin of mine went to school to become a patent lawyer. He couldn't land a job to save his life. He's now a stay-at-home father whilst his medical-doctor spouse pads the bank account [all of which is fine, I'm talking only to the law-degree-job points here]. Your favorite person can get the best most awesome degree possible and still work in the mail room. By hook or by crook, that may just be what they enjoy [and in "current year", what that job requires].
aasasd 8y ago
I've recently learned that Russian LiAZ 677 aka "cattle truck," which I rode almost daily through most of the 2000s, is already considered "retro"―because it was in production since '63 till '94. It's quite jarring to see what was recently your daily ride, in a procession together with buses from the 50s.
- varjag 8y ago
  To be fair when I rode LiAZ in 1980s they were already considered long in the tooth.
WalterBright 8y ago
If you're willing to do the maintenance, vehicles can last forever. Most cars will last a very long time if you keep up with the lubrication maintenance. But the mail trucks are perfect candidates for replacement with electrics.
- moltar 8y ago
  That’s true. But some vehicles are longer lasting than others. But it’s pretty common for taxi vehicles to hit a million kms.
- jchw 8y ago
  Question from somebody who does not know jack about automobiles: would electric vehicles last longer? Tesla was boasting its powertrain's longevity and it got me wondering if that was normally a limiting factor to a vehicle's lifespan and whether electric vehicles were better off. I mean, I'm guessing you've gotta replace the battery a fair few times, but are they as promising as they sound for longevity?
  - Latteland 8y ago
    It's hard to answer conclusively but early evidence is good. Their vague goal is a million miles on the drivetrain of the 3 but they warranty 100k miles, so the million is really an aspiration. There are people with 300k on their Ss already. No spark plugs, no oil to change. No fan belt, no transmission, no spark plugs or gas filter or muffler. Tires are the main thing people change. The early worries were about battery degredation. No degredation for me after almost 40k miles.
    - stcredzero 8y ago
      For the long term Tesla S owners, it looks like the battery degradation levels off asymptotically at around 90% and looks like the curve will stay mostly flat. https://cleantechnica.com/2017/05/19/show-me-the-data-the-truth-about-tesla-battery-degradation/ https://cleantechnica.com/2017/05/19/show-me-the-data-the-tr...
RickJWagner 8y ago
Awesome. It's good to hear of government spending that results in long service life, lessons learned, and value for the taxpayer.
nimbius 8y ago
as an automotive mechanic by trade, these little suckers have always had a place in my heart. Bless the fleet teams that keep them running! the LLV is powered by one of these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Duke_engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Duke_engine technically its a pontiac engine, but its powered a ton of stuff including the 92 Chevy Lumina. parts for this engine are almost free, and you wont find a cheaper fleet vehicle other than maybe Crown Victoria. Mileage...people are complaining about 10mpg but forget to mention this is a V4 and geared at the mission to haul 1 ton of cargo. coming from the shop floor of our diesel engine repair building, 10mpg for a 4 cylinder iron block mail truck is good. freight trucks are often lucky to see 6. Your lumina engine however is geared much more respectably and will see 18-22 city/highway.
- jandrese 8y ago
  10mpg with almost all stop and go is really not that bad. Most non-electric or hybrid cards would get terrible mileage doing mail routes all day.
- war1025 8y ago
  Unrelated, but I really enjoy coming across your automotive posts.
- bluedino 8y ago
  >> V4 and geared at the mission to haul 1 ton of cargo I’m sure you made an honest mistake, but a V4 is very rare - the Duke was an inline-4. I had one in a 1984 Fiero, and even in a small car like that it was lacking in power. Not that it didn’t have bigger problems, like catching the damn car on fire, which they recalled them for. Somehow that engine ended up in the even larger Firebird/Camaro...
morcutt 8y ago
I see Dodge Promasters replacing some of these in Austin, Texas.
- zachkatz 8y ago
  Same with Portland, Oregon
benj111 8y ago
This appears to be based on an earlier British design https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postman_Pat https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postman_Pat Edit: With tongue firmly in cheek of course.
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
It's kind of hilarious to see a bunch of upscale tech workers singing the praise of the LLV when they would otherwise deride the vehicle it's built on. If you went on /r/cars and said "I'm thinking of buying an '80s S10 with the 4cyl" you'd have people calling you crazy. They you say "but I'm going to put small tires on it and give it 4.10 gears so that the rear end doesn't spew parts and the transmission lives a long time" and they'd call you an idiot. Somehow a special purpose truck body makes it more acceptable. It goes to show you how much context/framing matter.
noonespecial 8y ago
They're all probably little Ships of Theseus by now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus
PaulHoule 8y ago
In Upstate New York our postal workers prefer asian small cars to official Post Office truck because they handle better in the snow.
kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
> the FFV is a more fuel efficient vehicle, operating on a combination of unleaded gas and ethanol Gasahol is not "more fuel efficient". It is a corn lobby subsidy that delivers less MPG than straight gas due to the lower energy density.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  I agree, it's misleading marketing speak lobbyist crap That said on a multi year timescale ethanol is far more efficient in terms of carbon output per joule since much of the carbon released was captured when the corn was grown so the only net carbon output is from the fossil fuel portion of the fuel. It's similiar to the argument for why heating with wood is better for the environment in the long term.
gcb0 8y ago
offtopic: Love how it have a youtube embed from youtube-nocookie.com, yet i can see 1 cookie attempt for youtube-nocookie.com, 10 cookies for google.com, 3 for www.google.com
known 8y ago
1966 Volvo P1800 belonging to Irv Gordon of Long Island, NY. Gordon claimed the Guinness World Record back in 2014 when he’d posted 3.04 million miles. https://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/going-the-distance-7-cars-that-have-gone-1m-miles.html/ https://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/going-the-distance-7-...
black-tea 8y ago
Why are they right-hand drive?
- grzm 8y ago
  So you can put mail a mailbox without getting out from behind the wheel.

247 points by keeganjw 8y ago

One thing that is not mentioned is the actual mileage of the vehicles in use is only 10 miles per gallon. Also rural carriers seem to be mostly now to be private vehicles sometimes with the magnetic sticker on the side indicating a postal service vehicle.

FlyMoreRockets 8y ago
Postal trucks are based on the Chevy/GM S-10 platform. I wonder what is unique about them, other than the body shell, right hand drive and smaller wheels.
- newnewpdro 8y ago
  If you lower and shorten an S-10, reduce the tire diameter by something like 40%, and stick an aluminum body on it, you've created a very unique driving experience in terms of acceleration and handling. I bet they're a lot of fun to drive.
  - s0rce 8y ago
    right hand drive too
  - AmVess 8y ago
    I wouldn't bet on that. I owned a vehicle that had the same engine and was lighter, and it was a complete slug. Also, the tech underneath these is almost 40 years old, and was bad when new. These have no AC, so imagine driving one all day in 90F heat. I'm sure they all have a bazillion miles on them by now and are in poor repair.
    - newnewpdro 8y ago
      Ouch, the venerable iron duke, probably pretty awful indeed. Still, if it's optimized for the low-speed stop & go stuff it'll just suck to go on highways but I'd expect it to be decent on the surface streets. That motor was a real heap though, damn the 80s were rough for GM.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - AmVess 8y ago
        GM was in a pretty bad spot for a long time. The car I had was in the junkyard by 80k miles, and it was well taken care of. I ended up in a same year Honda that never had a single malfunction in 120k + miles.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  The smaller wheels are what really does it for reliability. You can't really hurt anything when you can't get the drive-line loaded up with tons of torque because you just peel out. The Chevy 10b rear axle in those S10s is a complete turd. It's like the Toyota pickup frame or Ford 6.0 of rear axles. But with small enough tires and deep gears it's impossible to hurt them before you break traction. Everything else is just an S10. The front suspension is pretty meh. Compared to every other small pickup platform on the market in the US at the time there is nothing special to recommend it. It's basically an 80s GM car that's been narrwed (G body IIRC??). For sheer durability what you'd find in a 90s Ranger or 1st gen Explorer far eclipses it (doesn't handle as nice though) in basically every way. When you've got a maintenance department replacing the seriously worn stuff it doesn't matter that much. The S10 platform isn't perfect in this regard but it certainly gets the job done. It doesn't have to go get airborne. It just needs to handle bumping over curbs at 5-15mph. The engine is pretty reliable. It doesn't make enough power to hurt anything and it can't move enough air to spin fast enough to hurt itself and doesn't have any Achilles heels to make it unreliable. Same story as basically ever other domestic iron block and iron head OHV engine of the era. From the transmission's perspective being in the LLV is a really easy life. The engine doesn't make much power the rear is geared deep and the stop/start duty cycle doesn't allow for much heat buildup. Pretty much any trans is going to be highly reliable in that setting. In retrospect a 1st gen Explorer (basically the Ranger with a couple upgrades) would hand have been the better platform as far as chassis/suspension/axles go. Seriously, I can't over-emphasize this. The S10 has nothing to recommend it and a few strikes against it when it comes to all the components from the frame down whereas the Explorer is the undisputed winner in terms of chassis/suspension/axles from that time period. I think the GM options for 4cyl engines and automatic transmissions were better from a long term reliability perspective. GM basically set out to use their parts bin to build the most reliable S10 they could and they're not idiots so they succeeded. The performance goals and acceptable trade-offs are totally different from that of a consumer vehicle so they had a lot more room to make compromises and make the system more reliable.
jerrysievert 8y ago
There are still some postal service rural vehicles. My normal carrier drives a red Jeep Cherokee with permanently mounted flashing lights, but what makes it special is its right-hand drive. Her subs tend to drive minivans, or sometimes a white Jeep, all with left-hand drive, magnetic stickers, and magnetic flashing light.
rz2k 8y ago
An electric vehicle with very good regenerative braking would probably be much more efficient, but I imagine that any internal combustion powered vehicle that accelerates and decelerates as often as a mail carrier is going to have terrible effective gas mileage.
refurb 8y ago
The mileage probably has more to do with the use than the design, no? Starting a vehicle, driving it 30 ft to the next mailbox, the repeating hundreds of times a day probably kills mileage for any vehicle.
- llukas 8y ago
  Not for electric one ;)
- r00fus 8y ago
  Unless that vehicle is a hybrid. Hybrids’ mileage goes way up for start/stop unless it requires a complete cool down. No reason today the fleet shouldn’t be mainly hybrid or EV.

cat199 8y ago

"Until the 1980s, when postal officials looked to buy new vehicles for the service, they combed through existing models for one that best fit their needs." Bit too young to have a clear memory, but I thought they were usually jeeps? Or maybe this was because there were alot of surplus jeeps in those days since the jeep was still heavily used in the military?

zrail 8y ago
Not surplus Jeep stock as much as surplus capacity for building more Jeeps. IIRC most of the USPS Jeeps were right hand drive.
- LyndsySimon 8y ago
  Yep. Mail Jeeps (DJs) are somewhat collectible these days.
moioci 8y ago
I didn't remember this, but you're right. https://about.usps.com/who-we-are/postal-history/vehicles-gallery-details.htm#p=19 https://about.usps.com/who-we-are/postal-history/vehicles-ga... What I remember was more like the Studebaker here: https://about.usps.com/who-we-are/postal-history/vehicles-gallery-details.htm#p=21 https://about.usps.com/who-we-are/postal-history/vehicles-ga...
jachee 8y ago
They were quite often Jeeps up to the 80's. Usually DJ Models. [0] [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeep_DJ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeep_DJ

iscrewyou 8y ago

I see one of these everyday during my lunch but I never connected the dots that these were likely special made and are likely very old. I will look at it differently during my lunch today.

m23khan 8y ago

very interesting read. US Postal service had some rigorous requirements and these trucks are definitely an engineering feat. Here in Canada, the Canada Post trucks are similar looking too.

bryanlarsen 8y ago
According to wikipedia, it is the same vehicle. It looks like we've chosen a different replacement than USPS, though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_LLV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_LLV
- m23khan 8y ago
  thx Bryan!
- stan_rogers 8y ago
  We don't need to worry so much about the "not American" thing. The Transit is a proven, off-the-shelf product... but while Ford, it's European. That's not going to fly south of the border.

lb1lf 8y ago

I was puzzled for an instant as to why on earth would they be RHD, until I realised that this enables the driver to deliver mail without having to get out in the street and walk around the vehicle, thus being both safer and more efficient.

detaro 8y ago

Other examples: While I couldn't find a source quickly, I'd guess the typical brown UPS truck is a custom design, as are their newer, electric(?) variants? German Post/DHL couldn't get the car industry to make them an affordable electric delivery vehicle, so they bought an electric vehicle startup out of RWTH Aachen and made their own (now also starting to sell these to others, although I think they're teaming up with Ford to produce more of them)

blattimwind 8y ago
Most of the UPS vehicles in Germany are Mercedes Benz diesels, but they are of course not stock. Same for DHL (though many of the smaller delivery vans are VW, some of which are actually MB). MB diesels ("Oelmotoren") are just reliable as heck. Afaik all of these are standard transmission.
indemnity 8y ago
NZ Post use these things (Paxster), and I always laugh my ass off when they’re scooting past. https://www.nzpost.co.nz/about-us/sustainability/electric-vehicles-powering-deliveries https://www.nzpost.co.nz/about-us/sustainability/electric-ve...
- dingaling 8y ago
  I really don't like the idea of a 200kg powered vehicle on the pavements. Have there been pedestrian objections? In the UK postmen have a large 'pram' that they push on the pavements and which are often found bicycle-chained to lamps whilst the postie visits a cul de sac.
  - Symbiote 8y ago
    I think those "prams" have a battery assist, although they're presumably limited to walking pace. In Copenhagen, the postmen ride electric cargo bicycles [1], but mostly on the cycle paths. As with most bicycles, they just lock the rear wheel to the frame[2] if it's left for a while. [1] https://www.dreamstime.com/editorial-photo-postnord-copenhagen-denmark-nd-november-mail-man-delivery-bike-photo-francis-joseph-dean-deanpictures-image79872961 https://www.dreamstime.com/editorial-photo-postnord-copenhag... [2] https://bicycles.stackexchange.com/questions/54206/how-to-lock-up-a-bike-with-a-rear-wheel-lock https://bicycles.stackexchange.com/questions/54206/how-to-lo...

mannykannot 8y ago

Grumman became informally known as the Grumman Iron Works for its rugged airplanes.

reaperducer 8y ago
I find that interesting because every time I hear "Grumman" I think of the big brouhaha in the 1980's in New York City. The MTA ordered dozens? hundreds? of new "flexible buses" from Grumman and within months they all cracked down the middle. There was a transit shortage while the buses were sent out to Long Island to be repaired. It was a very long time ago, and Google fails me right now, so I'm not sure what the exact problem was, or what exactly a "flexible bus" meant. The only thing I can think of is that was the term of the day for articulated bus.
- johnmaguire2013 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flxible_Metro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flxible_Metro
  - reaperducer 8y ago
    Thanks for that. Here's the relevant paragraph: The Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA), in whose buses where the first cracked A-frame problem was noticed in early December 1980 at their Ulmer Park Depot, yanked its NYC Transit Authority fleet for the first time in 1980 (a separate batch for MSBA was built with the problem rectified the next year) and sued Grumman. This lawsuit would result in a settlement to fix all 870 buses built until that time (2,656 examples in all), along with an early termination of the build contract where the final 200 buses of the order were transferred to General Motors.
joncp 8y ago
And their indestructible canoes (that weighed a ton).
- dingaling 8y ago

Latteland 8y ago

Good job in 1980s. They have probably already considered the replacements and I think it will be a difficult choice. It is probably too early to switch to electric vehicles. I think (without any real info) they should shoot for investigating electric vehicles in 3 years. In 3 years the cost benefits will have conclusively gone to EVs, but just as important Congress and conservatives should be okay with with one of those newfangled "gasless carriages".

Xylakant 8y ago
Most postal delivery in somewhat urban environment is a prime case for electric vehicles: low mileage per day, lots of stop and go, low average and low top speed combine with a central spot where vehicles can be charged for extended periods. It’s not a coincidence that DHL is operating a large electric fleet.

reaperducer 8y ago

Those little trucklings are durable as heck. A few months ago I saw one bounding across the desert scrubland between two remote ranches knocking tumbleweeds out of its way like it was channeling a monster truck. Amusing a heck to me. Probably not to anyone on the receiving end of a package marked "Fragile."

newnewpdro 8y ago
Your description reminds me of our FedEx guy here on dirt/sand roads near Joshua Tree National Park. He drives one of the smaller box trucks, from the sound of it I assume it's a gas V8. It's always towards the end of the day and he's clearly in a hurry to finish his final deliveries in an empty truck and it's like seeing a FedEx truck compete in a rally race. I can hear him coming a mile away with the taps wide open, and the thing is fishtailing and bouncing all over the place blasting across the desert at 80+ MPH. None of the locals I've seen, not even the guys on ATVs, sustain the FedEx guy's pace.
- yowlingcat 8y ago
  Something about this makes me laugh uncontrollably. I think it's bringing up the very fond memories of playing The Simpsons: Road Rage (a lightly branded reskinning of Crazy Taxi for Gamecube) as a middle schooler and deliberately doing the most absurd stuff to see what the wacky physics engine would allow. The answer is: quite a lot. The idea of a FedEx driver doing the same thing in real life just sounds goofy to me. I suppose the novelty must wear off after a while.
  - toast0 8y ago
    FYI, Simpsons: road rage was not a reskin, it was developed by an unrelated team (and Sega sued for patent infringement, the case was settled for an undisclosed amount)
    - yowlingcat 8y ago
      No kidding! Just looked it up and found this: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/news051203segasuit https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/news051203segasuit I was under the erroneous assumption that it was an officially sanctioned clone. Little did I know...

matte_black 8y ago

Do these ever get sold off to the public?

Eric_WVGG 8y ago
Yup. I saw one parked next to an ice cream truck last summer. Exact same truck.
s0rce 8y ago
Yes, here was one: https://www.govdeals.com/?fa=Main.Item&itemid=6463&acctid=357#media https://www.govdeals.com/?fa=Main.Item&itemid=6463&acctid=35... Doesn't look like any are listed at the moment.
- matte_black 8y ago
  Wow they are cheap!!
voxadam 8y ago
I've seen them available at auction in the past. https://autoauctions.gsa.gov/GSAAutoAuctions/ https://autoauctions.gsa.gov/GSAAutoAuctions/ https://www.govdeals.com/ https://www.govdeals.com/ https://www.publicsurplus.com https://www.publicsurplus.com https://craigslist.org https://craigslist.org
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

costcopizza 8y ago

With the amount of stop and go, these things are begging for at least a hybrid power train. I’ve heard they’re very uncomfortable inside during summer temps. Also, long live the Iron Duke!

jtokoph 8y ago

Interesting video with a hypothetical redesign of the trucks: https://youtu.be/6oDVsf29tyk https://youtu.be/6oDVsf29tyk

stcredzero 8y ago
I was just about to post a link to that video! I think it's mostly spot on. tl;dr -- It would be better to replace those things, and Tesla is probably the company to do it!
sokoloff 8y ago
Right hand drive is a safety feature for roadside mailbox delivery. Eliminating that does not seem like a good idea at all.
rhn_mk1 8y ago
It's interesting how they list problems with gas mileage and fire safety in the previous model, and they conclude that a redesign is needed to correct the flaws, and then proceed to start off with adding features like replaceable cargo area, additional doors and airbags. I stopped watching when they recommended integrating tablets as something that should increase longevity.

adanto6840 8y ago

My father was a postal delivery worker for some 35+ years (with a law degree, LOL) and I distinctly recall him loving his "LLV". He maybe took it a bit too seriously, but I also recall him occasionally getting "new" test vehicles and hating them compared to his trusty LLV (and it makes me chuckle to recall him often saying 'LLV' out loud & quite proudly; we just thought he was geeky, even if technically accurate). He absolutely loved these vehicles though. The only consistent complaint he had was their winter performance -- they would get stuck extremely easily, and my recollection was that he'd have to be "pulled out" 1-3 times during most winters. We were in the midwest, so typically somewhat moderate winters (perhaps a bit less so 20-30 years ago now), but just a bit of snow or ice and they could get hung up pretty easily. I recall the wheels being tiny, and the tires tending towards the bald side, so maybe was preventable but nonetheless they would quite quickly send someone to pull LLVs out any time they got hung up! Edit -- They also have an incredibly distinct 'whir' sound when in reverse; it's truly unmistakable and 20+ years later I can still identify one by that sound. My father's route included our neighborhood so he'd have a "cookie break" when he dropped our mail off & take his lunch at home, too; the unique reverse sound was an instant giveaway that the LLV was backing into the driveway. Good memories. :)

pm90 8y ago
Why did your father become a postal delivery worker if he had a law degree? Its a rather personal question so please don't feel like you have to answer, but it seems like a non-traditional career path.
- michaelchisari 8y ago
  I can't speak for his father, but knowing both lawyers and postal workers, I can say that the postal workers are infinitely more satisfied with their careers, hands down.
  - drdeadringer 8y ago
    A cousin of mine went to school to become a patent lawyer. He couldn't land a job to save his life. He's now a stay-at-home father whilst his medical-doctor spouse pads the bank account [all of which is fine, I'm talking only to the law-degree-job points here]. Your favorite person can get the best most awesome degree possible and still work in the mail room. By hook or by crook, that may just be what they enjoy [and in "current year", what that job requires].

aasasd 8y ago

I've recently learned that Russian LiAZ 677 aka "cattle truck," which I rode almost daily through most of the 2000s, is already considered "retro"―because it was in production since '63 till '94. It's quite jarring to see what was recently your daily ride, in a procession together with buses from the 50s.

varjag 8y ago
To be fair when I rode LiAZ in 1980s they were already considered long in the tooth.

WalterBright 8y ago

If you're willing to do the maintenance, vehicles can last forever. Most cars will last a very long time if you keep up with the lubrication maintenance. But the mail trucks are perfect candidates for replacement with electrics.

moltar 8y ago
That’s true. But some vehicles are longer lasting than others. But it’s pretty common for taxi vehicles to hit a million kms.
jchw 8y ago
Question from somebody who does not know jack about automobiles: would electric vehicles last longer? Tesla was boasting its powertrain's longevity and it got me wondering if that was normally a limiting factor to a vehicle's lifespan and whether electric vehicles were better off. I mean, I'm guessing you've gotta replace the battery a fair few times, but are they as promising as they sound for longevity?
- Latteland 8y ago
  It's hard to answer conclusively but early evidence is good. Their vague goal is a million miles on the drivetrain of the 3 but they warranty 100k miles, so the million is really an aspiration. There are people with 300k on their Ss already. No spark plugs, no oil to change. No fan belt, no transmission, no spark plugs or gas filter or muffler. Tires are the main thing people change. The early worries were about battery degredation. No degredation for me after almost 40k miles.
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    For the long term Tesla S owners, it looks like the battery degradation levels off asymptotically at around 90% and looks like the curve will stay mostly flat. https://cleantechnica.com/2017/05/19/show-me-the-data-the-truth-about-tesla-battery-degradation/ https://cleantechnica.com/2017/05/19/show-me-the-data-the-tr...

RickJWagner 8y ago

Awesome. It's good to hear of government spending that results in long service life, lessons learned, and value for the taxpayer.

nimbius 8y ago

as an automotive mechanic by trade, these little suckers have always had a place in my heart. Bless the fleet teams that keep them running! the LLV is powered by one of these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Duke_engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Duke_engine technically its a pontiac engine, but its powered a ton of stuff including the 92 Chevy Lumina. parts for this engine are almost free, and you wont find a cheaper fleet vehicle other than maybe Crown Victoria. Mileage...people are complaining about 10mpg but forget to mention this is a V4 and geared at the mission to haul 1 ton of cargo. coming from the shop floor of our diesel engine repair building, 10mpg for a 4 cylinder iron block mail truck is good. freight trucks are often lucky to see 6. Your lumina engine however is geared much more respectably and will see 18-22 city/highway.

jandrese 8y ago
10mpg with almost all stop and go is really not that bad. Most non-electric or hybrid cards would get terrible mileage doing mail routes all day.
war1025 8y ago
Unrelated, but I really enjoy coming across your automotive posts.
bluedino 8y ago
>> V4 and geared at the mission to haul 1 ton of cargo I’m sure you made an honest mistake, but a V4 is very rare - the Duke was an inline-4. I had one in a 1984 Fiero, and even in a small car like that it was lacking in power. Not that it didn’t have bigger problems, like catching the damn car on fire, which they recalled them for. Somehow that engine ended up in the even larger Firebird/Camaro...

morcutt 8y ago

I see Dodge Promasters replacing some of these in Austin, Texas.

zachkatz 8y ago
Same with Portland, Oregon

benj111 8y ago

This appears to be based on an earlier British design https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postman_Pat https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postman_Pat Edit: With tongue firmly in cheek of course.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago

It's kind of hilarious to see a bunch of upscale tech workers singing the praise of the LLV when they would otherwise deride the vehicle it's built on. If you went on /r/cars and said "I'm thinking of buying an '80s S10 with the 4cyl" you'd have people calling you crazy. They you say "but I'm going to put small tires on it and give it 4.10 gears so that the rear end doesn't spew parts and the transmission lives a long time" and they'd call you an idiot. Somehow a special purpose truck body makes it more acceptable. It goes to show you how much context/framing matter.

noonespecial 8y ago

They're all probably little Ships of Theseus by now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

PaulHoule 8y ago

In Upstate New York our postal workers prefer asian small cars to official Post Office truck because they handle better in the snow.

kevin_thibedeau 8y ago

> the FFV is a more fuel efficient vehicle, operating on a combination of unleaded gas and ethanol Gasahol is not "more fuel efficient". It is a corn lobby subsidy that delivers less MPG than straight gas due to the lower energy density.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago
I agree, it's misleading marketing speak lobbyist crap That said on a multi year timescale ethanol is far more efficient in terms of carbon output per joule since much of the carbon released was captured when the corn was grown so the only net carbon output is from the fossil fuel portion of the fuel. It's similiar to the argument for why heating with wood is better for the environment in the long term.

gcb0 8y ago

offtopic: Love how it have a youtube embed from youtube-nocookie.com, yet i can see 1 cookie attempt for youtube-nocookie.com, 10 cookies for google.com, 3 for www.google.com

known 8y ago

1966 Volvo P1800 belonging to Irv Gordon of Long Island, NY. Gordon claimed the Guinness World Record back in 2014 when he’d posted 3.04 million miles. https://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/going-the-distance-7-cars-that-have-gone-1m-miles.html/ https://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/going-the-distance-7-...

black-tea 8y ago

Why are they right-hand drive?

grzm 8y ago
So you can put mail a mailbox without getting out from behind the wheel.