12 ms·

People with Depression Use Language Differently

269 points by toufiqbarhamov 8y ago

heyjudy 8y ago
Yes. All-or-nothing, black-and-white thinking appears to be a cognitive simplification that discards nuance in order to model the world more simply. Being depressed takes more effort to think and do almost everything that would/could be routine when not depressed, coupled with a mental fog and internal disorganization that makes it more difficult to function normally. This introduces both more errors and a propensity for drama in cases of being wrong, which also often introduces an inflexibility, which leads to more conflict with others. Overall, I'd say depression reduces critical thinking, multi-model thinking and prioritization by making it easier to focus on edge-cases and catastrophication (cognitive distortions).
camillomiller 8y ago
It would be then interesting to see if there is a scientific correlation between changing one’s language habits and depression. I’ve always considered the “start talking positive and things will go well” advice as shortsighted and oversimplistic, but maybe there is indeed a correlation, and a positive reinforcement through language is possible. Mantras and chants can have a strong influence on our brain waves, so maybe there’s a way to leverage positive language and repetition to ignite a change in the way we feel and the way we think.
- throwaway8879 8y ago
  I've always wanted to delve more into E-prime, general semantics after hearing about it in a lot of Robert Anton Wilson's lectures. Language definitely has an effect on the way we think and feel. I recently bought a book called 'The Tyranny of Words' by Stuart Chase that I need to find the time to read too. Keep in mind that general semantics is mostly pseudoscience, or at least ont the fringe.
- hliyan 8y ago
  My personal theory is that an absolutist vocabulary of thinking ("always", "never", "very/extremely") diminishes the possibilities / opportunities perceived by the person. This leads to a feeling of helplessness, which leads to a lack of motivation, which in turn becomes a self-fulfilling vicious cycle. It's amazing what people go and achieve when they don't know it's impossible...
  - Farradfahren 8y ago
    Half of the accomplishment presentations and stories begin with "we thought the other company already had done it, so we reverse- engineered it from what we knew about them." Unreal Engines mirroring floors where done that way. Thats why launching and advertising for fake products, and similar endavours are often a net positive. Somebody at some other company sees that, and gets into a "we must do that too frenzy". Imagine the world, if Lockheed started a advertising campaign for a working fusion reactor in a box right now. The paniced race to market everyone suddenly would be in.
- pilotthefuture 8y ago
  There's an enlightening discussion interweaved with clinical examples on the power of chanting, synchronised rituals, theatre and Neurofeedback (among many others) in treating trauma patients in The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk, which I highly recommend for going deeper into the points you mentioned.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- PavlovsCat 8y ago
  > Sometimes your joy is the source of your smile, but sometimes your smile can be the source of your joy. -- Thich Nhat Hanh
  - state_less 8y ago
    Sometimes we forget to smile, thanks for reminding us. :) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25139308 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25139308
- kzrdude 8y ago
  As someone who has come out of depressiveness, for me it was mostly about physical factors in the end: routine, sleep, always eating regularly (breakfast!). I don't know what to think about the mental factors. For me they seem to mostly be symptoms of a bad physical state. Some approach to both worlds is needed: Also I needed that the absurdly negative voices in my head would shut up, when I was trying to sleep. Some of that was just healing over time, I think.
mettamage 8y ago
Regarding the pronouns: what I notice within myself is that when I nudge myself to be more altruistic, in a giver's mindset or care more about others then I feel often more good as opposed to when I think about myself. I think it's because it's easier to get anxious about oneself compared to anxious about someone else.
- qwerty456127 8y ago
  A nice observation. It's a fundamentally important and very practical part of what Buddhism teaches by the way.
  - mettamage 8y ago
    I agree, which is why I aspire to live to the namesake of my username. Metta: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mett%C4%81 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mett%C4%81 Mage: my fantastical word for programmer or person who brings his ideas into reality (could also do wizard but mage sounds cooler).
    - qwerty456127 8y ago
      Cool!
- depressedthrow 8y ago
  I work in tech am i am depressed. I am unable to move and think, negative thoughts amplifying in my mind till i lose my ability to think. I've no motivation and energy, i don't even feel like eating. Want to imagine how it feels? Think like a tube with end point A and B forming a closed loop with amplifier between these points and negative thoughts are injected into this closed loop, they amplify each time they pass through the loop and after suddenly nothing makes sense. No talk therapies, workout, yoga doesn't work in this case! I tried all these popular cures fo depression. I don't have any underlying trauma or abuse, i am not poor (who is poor in tech?) with fulfilling life and my life doesn't suck! I've a boyfriend who takes care of me, listens to everything i say and supportive family yet i couldn't get myself out of it. I've tried amphetamine, it works for me but i figured amphetamine works by reving up the supply of dopamine and Norepinephrine. I was sucidal, i overdosed on Amphetamine and nearly died. Back from the hospital, i realized using amphetamine is a shotgun approach to my issue. Since the probability of two things happening, like Norepinephrine deficiency and Dopamine deficiency is less than probability of one of the happening. I went forward with my best guess that I've NE deficiency and i started taking selective Pure norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors (NERIs) I managed to take enough dose to bridge the dificiency gap then using a spreadsheet, slowly lowered the doses over a span of 3 years in a hope that body would increase its own supply to normalize the level. Now, i am no longer depressed. This is after a depression lasting a decade. And local health authorities seem like they don't really wanna help you.
MarkMc 8y ago
Back in the 1980's Martin Seligman analysed the speaking styles of baseball team members to determine if their optimistic/pessimistic attitude correlated with success on the field. In his book "Learned Optimism" he claimed that this kind of analysis had some predictive power in who would win the game.
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  Cause or effect though? If you realise the other team are better than yours you could talk realistically about the result and people might interpret that as being negative. Et cetera.
  - sjg007 8y ago
    There's a phenomenon in sports and competitive environments that you rise to the level of your competition. In those cases you could win with some luck or strategy.
- herf 8y ago
  Seligman also teaches children to speak specifically about negative topics (2007 book, The Optimistic Child). His research says that a more optimistic speech pattern can be learned, where you actively reduce "always" sorts of words. He claims to have proven outcomes in reducing depression rates after several years.
azinman2 8y ago
Note this is relative to an older specific analysis technique (LIWC) and on Internet forums about depression/anxiety. Hard to interpret much about how this generalized to, say, text messages to friends.
Telos06 8y ago
Cognitive Behavioral Therapy puts much emphasis on identifying and pushing back against the "black and white" thinking behind such "absolute words". Getting stuck in a false dichotomy of extremes is one of the more damaging thought patterns.
sgt101 8y ago
Some people, who are diagnosed, sometimes.
Ihfhcub 8y ago
One explanation is poor evaluation of evidence in their environment and matching their past to their present environment. CBT deals with this. A black and white way of thinking will lead to poor reasoning and misguided emotions for their environment. Like a conspiracy theorist will distort evidence and confuse the probabilities of unlikely events. They will take weak evidence and deduce distorted statements about the world
- insickness 8y ago
  Actually evidence shows that depressed people are more realistic about the world than non-depressed people. The converse is true as well: people with unrealistically high ambition tend to do far better than those with realistic views.
  - sjg007 8y ago
    I view it as a probability spectrum. Prior default 10% this, 90% that... if you don't do anything you get that 90% outcome.. but you can act!!! And that increases the likelihood of the 10%. This means you need to apply Bayes Law to your thoughts. It also explains reality distortion fields etc...
  - xanipher 8y ago
    Depressive realism is still a strongly contested theory. There is also a lot of evidence that depressed people rate themself worse than warranted.
- agumonkey 8y ago
  That's quite probably a high factor indeed. I often felt like the value of social groups is to smooth out emotions. When you're with people you are a lot less stuck in your own mind and somehow you don't pile up negative thoughts to the point of crippling darkness. Also something I've noticed when trying to meditate (just cleansing my mind, nothing fancy). You can stop thinking and in a few minutes you'll feel just a little upbeat feeling, maybe fun ideas. It's a bit odd and paradoxical but your best choice is not to listen to your negative ideas..
bequiet 8y ago
What most people, including researchers, don’t get is that depression causes distorted thinking. Black and white thinking is merely a symptom of the disorder. CBT’s approach to depression is wildly inaccurate and damaging. If you can change how you feel by changing your perspective you are NOT suffering from clinical depression. You are at worst morose, lethargic, and unmotivated. Depression includes those, but is much more; it calls itself apathy, but is actually a survival mechanism unlike any other. Think of bipolar disorder. Their range goes from -20 to 30 in terms of emotional intensity instead of 0 - 10 for normal people. Except our nervous system can’t really handle that kind of intensity, so every manic episode MUST be followed by a depressive episode, otherwise they would die. Or think of post-partum depression, a state in which a mother’s body has been pushed to the extreme (8 on the pain scale, easily). The body returns to a depressed state to survive until it has recovered. Distorted thought patterns, lack of motivation, and sense of lethargy are merely symptoms of this state.
- sjg007 8y ago
  While interesting ideas, is there any evidence for any of your claims? In the meantime CBT has been shown in clinical trials to be as effective as drugs although not necessarily as fast acting. CBT has also been shown to last longer.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
aszantu 8y ago
Not meaning to demean anyone's hard work with psychology, but last year I changed my diet and my depression went away almost completely. From routinely wishing to be dead -> to walking a part of the camino trail in europe and being able to hold a job. Turns out, that all symptoms return when I eat carbs or fiber. But even after the depression gone away there are still some issues in thinking and moving slowly, which could be addressed by therapy. But I'm kinda mad that no doctor ever told me about diet and gut-brain connection.
- jyriand 8y ago
  What did you change in your diet? Changing a diet seems like a hard thing to do while you are suffering from depression.
  - kzrdude 8y ago
    Diet changer here, the first rule of diet, before you even look at what you eat, is that you need to eat. I started eating breakfast consistently. Often eating filling food like leftovers.
    - gnulinux 8y ago
      I don't think this is necessarily true. For me, eating anything makes me slightly feel worse, either it's feeling a little tired or something else. That's why sometimes, I eat 2 meals a day and get all my calories (~3000 calories) in two meals.
    - astura 8y ago
      And I feel at my best when I eat at most once a day (with regular fast days). When I eat all day I feel gross and sluggish.
- anonymouzz 8y ago
  Not sure why you're being downvoted. There's research indicating links between gut bacteria and (among others) mental health: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4662178/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4662178/ And of course one's gut bacteria culture heavily depends on what one eats.
known 8y ago
I'd suggest you to wear https://www.mi.com/in/mi-band-3/ https://www.mi.com/in/mi-band-3/ if you're depressed since you're susceptible to https://lifeinthefastlane.com/what-is-takotsubo/ https://lifeinthefastlane.com/what-is-takotsubo/
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
man-and-laptop 8y ago
Taleb claims that most psychological studies suffer from methodological flaws like p-hacking. One should be very sceptical of these kinds of studies and how you interpret them (correlation vs causation). Psychology has recently experienced a replication crisis. More than half of studies have failed to replicate, and those that have, have had lower effect sizes. Also, remember that there are lots of factors in a person's immediate situation that affect how they act. You end up with a "curse of dimensionality" problem, where it's impossible to isolate a general cause that's not specific to a certain situation. By the way, I'm not saying the result is wrong. I'm only urging caution. Don't just believe something because "A study says..." or "Scientists say..." ____________________________________________ I noticed they did their study by comparing mental health forums to other types of forums. That's an awfully specific situation. Let's say I had cancer, and I were writing in a forum full of cancer sufferers, clearly I would use more first-person pronouns, because I'm the cancer sufferer.
- Regardsyjc 8y ago
  Do you have any recommended books or resources by Taleb or another author on how to identify or avoid methodological flaws like p-hacking, understanding correlation vs causation, and more? I'm currently taking a data science course on Udemy and learning about chi squares, regression, and decision trees, but I'd love more information on best practices especially for experimental design.
  - man-and-laptop 8y ago
    Taleb's book The Black Swan has sections comparing heavy-tailed prob. distributions with thin-tailed prob. distributions. The thesis is that you can't tell whether a distribution has fat tails until a fat-tailed event happens (which he calls a black swan). Also goes into the flaws of using induction, the flaws in ascribing causes when there are "silent witnesses", and so on. I don't think there's any specific practical advice. It's more "If you work in economics and other areas, your research may well be doomed." Taleb's advice is often "Don't do this", instead of "Do this". I'm reading Anti-Fragile now. Can't off the top of my head give you advice on experiment design or statistics. [EDIT] It's more about designing systems that benefit from the unpredictability of the world, instead of building systems that are harmed by unpredictability. [EDIT] It's an important companion to his previous book, because it gives positive advice on how to make decisions in a world that isn't amenable to understanding because of complexity. It effectively gives positive advice, instead of just negative. There's also SITG that I'd like to read. And there's a "Technical Incerto" which looks like a work-in-progress, but involves concrete statistics. [edit] He's also tweeting the contents of a new Data Science course he's teaching at NYU. Be warned that Taleb is a bit of an arsehole on Twitter.
chiefalchemist 8y ago
> "More interesting is the use of pronouns. Those with symptoms of depression use significantly more first person singular pronouns – such as “me”, “myself” and “I” – and significantly fewer second and third person pronouns – such as “they”, “them” or “she”. This pattern of pronoun use suggests people with depression are more focused on themselves, and less connected with others." Which raises the question: Is depression a symptom? The root "disease" being the inability to connect / feel connected to others? I suppose futher studies might be able to track language (as a proxy) over time and shed light on correlation vs cause, etc.
- KMag 8y ago
  I suspect (wildly guess, to be honest) that, like "cancer", "depression" (or even "Melancholic Major Depressive Disorder") is really a name we give to a collection of related diseases with similar symptoms. Teasing apart the various forms will likely improve treatment (and improve quality of studies).
  - opportune 8y ago
    Yeah I have known many depressed people and been depressed myself. It seems much more likely to be a symptom than a singular condition, considering how differently people seem to experience it (some with it channel it into being successful, others can’t even get out of bed) its comorbidities, etc paired with how wildly many semi-successful treatments there are (SSRIs, CBT, diet, supplements, exercising/losing weight)
- orasis 8y ago
  When you’re unwell the focus is naturally more on the self than others. Vitamin D does wonders.
  - tyre 8y ago
    Vitamin D is not a medication for depression. Lack of vitamin D can cause depression but it does not “do wonders” for people suffering from depression.
zach43 8y ago
One methodological issue that I can detect in this article is the choice of forums used to draw their conclusions: > We predicted and found that anxiety, depression, and suicidal ideation forums contained more absolutist words than control forums (ds > 3.14). Suicidal ideation forums also contained more absolutist words than anxiety and depression forums (ds > 1.71). I have no knowledge of this field of research, but I'm trouble understanding why its a significant result that self-oriented forums (like "anxiety, depression, and suicidal ideation forums") have more self-oriented words and absolutist words than the control forums (of which 'MumsNet' and 'StudentRoom' are mentioned in the article). In the case of 'MumsNet' at least, you'd almost certainly have a prevalence of second person pronouns.
- xivzgrev 8y ago
  I’d agree with you, but you are comparing apples and oranges. The selection you quoted focuses on absolute language eg always, never. But the comparison you’re making is on pronoun choice eg I, you, they. You do mention absolutist words but the selection you quoted doesn’t mention pronouns so your critique shouldn’t either.
el_cujo 8y ago
So was their analysis of depressed people purely based on post/comments on mental health forums? To me, it makes sense that if you were going to one of these forums for the express purpose of getting help, of course you'd be using first person pronouns and negative-words, I imagine a lot of the posts would have something to the tune of "I've been feeling sad lately". Likewise, they compare this to formerly-depressed people on a forum explicitly for positive encouragement and found they used more positive-sounding words. The study seems to me to be analyzing whether people stay on topic in these forums more than saying anything about depressed people in general. While this would be much more difficult to accomplish and probably isn't realistic, I think it would be way more helpful to analyze how depressed people post on social media or via text or other "normal" conversation rather than how they interact when they go somewhere to talk about depression/being depressed.
rbosinger 8y ago
I can't wait until our internal email or chat flags me as depressed and I'm forced to go on leave. Can you imagine? And then I call the bank and their phone system decides I'm depressed and locks my accounts to protect me. And then the men in the white coats come. There could be a Black Mirror episode in this (if there isn't already).
- brendanmc6 8y ago
  Sounds like some low hanging fruit for an API or SaaS product. I'd hope the buyers would be healthcare professionals-- but like you've noted the real markets might be a bit more unpleasant...
  - zild3d 8y ago
    "Hi, I'm Clippy! I noticed you used a lot of negative and absolute words in your paper, here are some recommended psychiatrists near you... "
GlenTheMachine 8y ago
My wife has depression, and for the first several years of our marriage it was undiagnosed and untreated. Her use of language is, to this day, the single biggest thing I remember about that time. She used absolutes a lot. Things were "terrible" or "horrible". The house was "a disaster". It was never partly clean, or messy. It was either clean, or a disaster. But the biggest issue was that her perception of the world, including her perception of what people were saying to her - what I was saying to her - was utterly skewed. Anything I said to her, she took in the worst possible light. A compliment that could be shaded negatively, was. If I told her I liked her dress, that was taken as my not liking her other clothes. If I told her I appreciated something she did, that was taken as my not liking anything else she did. Every once in a while I managed to figure out how to say something that was so clear that it couldn't be misinterpreted, and when that happened it was as if I were speaking Greek. The statement literally did not make any sense in her mind. It was fascinating to watch; there was actually a discernible lag as she processed, and figured out how to misinterpret, anything I said. It was as if she had her own private version of English, with her own definitions, which were more black and white (and shaded towards the black) than the vernacular version everyone else spoke. In order to speak with her I had to become conversant in her version of the language. After a while it really felt like she was gaslighting me. Anything I said or did, she took in the worst possible way, and then blamed me for it. It took an enormous amount of emotional fortitude to keep reminding myself that this was fundamentally not my fault. I feel tremendously lucky that I didn't become depressed myself. Happily, she eventually did recognize that something was wrong and got help, and is tons better today. Bit what they say about depression is completely true: your mind is lying to you. I watched it happen. And the even more fascinating thing is that, although she now recognizes she was depressed, she still doesn't remember those times the way I do. Her memories are still skewed. If you are suffering from depression, please seek help. And if you are in a relationship with someone suffering from depression, find emotional support. It isn't your fault.
- MrOrelliOReilly 8y ago
  > If you are suffering from depression, please seek help. And if you are in a relationship with someone suffering from depression, find emotional support. It isn't your fault. An underrated piece of advice. Not to take at all away from what those with depression are suffering, but supporting a loved one with depression can be a tremendous task in itself, sometimes involving a lot of emotional abuse. Thanks for sharing.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
slantaclaus 8y ago
“This pattern of pronoun use suggests people with depression are more focused on themselves, and less connected with others.“ I believe this is more of a symptom of excessive isolating behavior (an arguable cause of depression) than it is a predisposition towards selfishness.
ivoras 8y ago
That's basically the original observation of NLP (no, not that one) - that people often literally express their mental state through language on a non-trivial level, and IMO still one of the better things which make it worth studying. Just find yourself a trainer who has a similar propensity for metaphysics as you (which can range from 0 to all-in-new-age) since the field has diverged into various interpretations.
momentmaker 8y ago
This reminds me of the first agreement in The Four Agreements by don Miguel Luis. "Be impeccable with your words." The words manifest into thoughts which turn into physical form. The book described words are akin to black magic.
DoreenMichele 8y ago
I'm basically currently losing my shit over my intractable personal problems and the ways in which sexism help keep them intractable. So I don't think I can be rational or socially acceptable at the moment. However, we don’t know whether these findings reflect differences in attention or thinking style. Does depression cause people to focus on themselves, or do people who focus on themselves get symptoms of depression? My belief based on first-hand experience is that social factors drive some people to this. I'm very socially observant. I've apparently been casually announcing that the emperor has no clothes since I was about three years old. I often don't realize I know someone's "secrets" that they imagine they have covered up very successfully. When I casually remark on such things, it gets me hated on. No, I will never ever ever ever be forgiven for it. So, over the years, I have gradually worked at saying less about other people because it's such a mine field. Talking about me and only me as much as I can convinces other people I'm a narcissist, but it's less problematic than me casually asking "The emperor? You mean the deluded naked guy whose delusions everyone is feeding by going along with his bullshit claim that he has some amazing new wardrobe? Is that the guy we're talking about?" This is backed up by data. I mean, the fact that I only talk about me and everyone hates me for it -- or, more accurately, everyone hates me and identifying this habit is one of the excuses they use to justify it. When I was on Metafilter, if you checked their infodump, I used "I" vastly more than any runner up. And I was hated on, which was just a thing Metafilter chose to do to certain people because the site has serious issues. When I joined, it was policy for the mods to pin the drama on one person, blame them, tell them you shut up and stop commenting and then let other people continue attacking them under circumstances where they would get in trouble if they came back to defend themselves. I quickly got on the short list of people where public bear downs by multiple people were not only the norm, God help you if you tried to defend them because that could mean you're next. Depression is often a female issue and, on average, woman tend to be (perceived as) more social. We get tasked with doing emotional labor and get dismissed a lot and can't make as much money for the same job, etc. It's a very crazy-making situation and it's common for therapists to offer women medication instead of advice on how to stop being victimized. I think most men don't really mean to victimize women, so it goes bad places when women point fingers and blame men who are part of the problem. They feel wrongfully accused. Doing so just makes the problem more intractable. But trying to find the right words before you can speak to the problem winds up being a silencing mechanism. It makes it extra hard to try to solve it at all. When every door slams shut in your face no matter what you do, it's hard to not start thinking in absolutist terms of "always" and "never." Even so, I think the absolutist terms are more likely linked to wonky brain chemistry. I have a medical condition. On bad days when I'm feverish, etc, I engage in more absolutist language and I'm not rational. My sons have learned to "not engage the crazy." I say something extreme and irrational, they say "Mom, are you hungry? Are you thirsty? Are you warm enough?" Most of the time, when I'm irrational, getting me fed, hydrated and warm results in me falling asleep in short order. Trying to argue with me about crazy stuff I'm saying just puts out the fire with gasoline. Insisting on only engaging me constructively is more effective. They do sometimes rebut my irrational remarks, but they don't get dragged into arguing it with me. I say "I have no friends" they say "That's not true." They rebut it,but they dont get tired in it. That seems to be a best practice that helps keep me grounded in reality without pissing me off, fueling a sense of hopelessness and despair, etc. Getting healthier and making my life work better has proven to be the best solution. My mental health has gradually improved. I still have days when the bullshit in the world that makes it seemingly impossible for a woman to get anywhere just makes me postal. I'm there right now. The past few days have been terrible in terms of my head space. But most of the time, I'm overall more rational. Most depressed people have serious intractable personal problems that no one knows how to solve. Medicating their feelings ends up de facto being dismissive. Think of it like if Susan B Anthony were put on Valium and told "Women don't need the vote. You're merely crazy. Here, take this. You'll feel better." No, that's not going to figure the myriad problems that grow out of being disenfranchised and disempowered and having no real say in your own life. I think social factors fuel the use of first person pronouns. I think social factors and brain chemistry fuel the use of absolutist terminology. Both get better when the social factors driving it improve. The second seems to also be helped by addressing physiological factors, like exhaustion. /2 cents
salamanderman 8y ago
Describes my speech and internal monologue patterns before I got medications and therapy perfectly.
atulatul 8y ago
I also noticed use of passive voice more than active voice. Not sure if it even has a correlation with depression or lack or control. Just noticed it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_voice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_voice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_voice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_voice

Yes. All-or-nothing, black-and-white thinking appears to be a cognitive simplification that discards nuance in order to model the world more simply. Being depressed takes more effort to think and do almost everything that would/could be routine when not depressed, coupled with a mental fog and internal disorganization that makes it more difficult to function normally. This introduces both more errors and a propensity for drama in cases of being wrong, which also often introduces an inflexibility, which leads to more conflict with others. Overall, I'd say depression reduces critical thinking, multi-model thinking and prioritization by making it easier to focus on edge-cases and catastrophication (cognitive distortions).

camillomiller 8y ago

It would be then interesting to see if there is a scientific correlation between changing one’s language habits and depression. I’ve always considered the “start talking positive and things will go well” advice as shortsighted and oversimplistic, but maybe there is indeed a correlation, and a positive reinforcement through language is possible. Mantras and chants can have a strong influence on our brain waves, so maybe there’s a way to leverage positive language and repetition to ignite a change in the way we feel and the way we think.

throwaway8879 8y ago
I've always wanted to delve more into E-prime, general semantics after hearing about it in a lot of Robert Anton Wilson's lectures. Language definitely has an effect on the way we think and feel. I recently bought a book called 'The Tyranny of Words' by Stuart Chase that I need to find the time to read too. Keep in mind that general semantics is mostly pseudoscience, or at least ont the fringe.
hliyan 8y ago
My personal theory is that an absolutist vocabulary of thinking ("always", "never", "very/extremely") diminishes the possibilities / opportunities perceived by the person. This leads to a feeling of helplessness, which leads to a lack of motivation, which in turn becomes a self-fulfilling vicious cycle. It's amazing what people go and achieve when they don't know it's impossible...
- Farradfahren 8y ago
  Half of the accomplishment presentations and stories begin with "we thought the other company already had done it, so we reverse- engineered it from what we knew about them." Unreal Engines mirroring floors where done that way. Thats why launching and advertising for fake products, and similar endavours are often a net positive. Somebody at some other company sees that, and gets into a "we must do that too frenzy". Imagine the world, if Lockheed started a advertising campaign for a working fusion reactor in a box right now. The paniced race to market everyone suddenly would be in.
pilotthefuture 8y ago
There's an enlightening discussion interweaved with clinical examples on the power of chanting, synchronised rituals, theatre and Neurofeedback (among many others) in treating trauma patients in The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk, which I highly recommend for going deeper into the points you mentioned.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
PavlovsCat 8y ago
> Sometimes your joy is the source of your smile, but sometimes your smile can be the source of your joy. -- Thich Nhat Hanh
- state_less 8y ago
  Sometimes we forget to smile, thanks for reminding us. :) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25139308 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25139308
kzrdude 8y ago
As someone who has come out of depressiveness, for me it was mostly about physical factors in the end: routine, sleep, always eating regularly (breakfast!). I don't know what to think about the mental factors. For me they seem to mostly be symptoms of a bad physical state. Some approach to both worlds is needed: Also I needed that the absurdly negative voices in my head would shut up, when I was trying to sleep. Some of that was just healing over time, I think.

mettamage 8y ago

Regarding the pronouns: what I notice within myself is that when I nudge myself to be more altruistic, in a giver's mindset or care more about others then I feel often more good as opposed to when I think about myself. I think it's because it's easier to get anxious about oneself compared to anxious about someone else.

qwerty456127 8y ago
A nice observation. It's a fundamentally important and very practical part of what Buddhism teaches by the way.
- mettamage 8y ago
  I agree, which is why I aspire to live to the namesake of my username. Metta: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mett%C4%81 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mett%C4%81 Mage: my fantastical word for programmer or person who brings his ideas into reality (could also do wizard but mage sounds cooler).
  - qwerty456127 8y ago
    Cool!
depressedthrow 8y ago
I work in tech am i am depressed. I am unable to move and think, negative thoughts amplifying in my mind till i lose my ability to think. I've no motivation and energy, i don't even feel like eating. Want to imagine how it feels? Think like a tube with end point A and B forming a closed loop with amplifier between these points and negative thoughts are injected into this closed loop, they amplify each time they pass through the loop and after suddenly nothing makes sense. No talk therapies, workout, yoga doesn't work in this case! I tried all these popular cures fo depression. I don't have any underlying trauma or abuse, i am not poor (who is poor in tech?) with fulfilling life and my life doesn't suck! I've a boyfriend who takes care of me, listens to everything i say and supportive family yet i couldn't get myself out of it. I've tried amphetamine, it works for me but i figured amphetamine works by reving up the supply of dopamine and Norepinephrine. I was sucidal, i overdosed on Amphetamine and nearly died. Back from the hospital, i realized using amphetamine is a shotgun approach to my issue. Since the probability of two things happening, like Norepinephrine deficiency and Dopamine deficiency is less than probability of one of the happening. I went forward with my best guess that I've NE deficiency and i started taking selective Pure norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors (NERIs) I managed to take enough dose to bridge the dificiency gap then using a spreadsheet, slowly lowered the doses over a span of 3 years in a hope that body would increase its own supply to normalize the level. Now, i am no longer depressed. This is after a depression lasting a decade. And local health authorities seem like they don't really wanna help you.

MarkMc 8y ago

Back in the 1980's Martin Seligman analysed the speaking styles of baseball team members to determine if their optimistic/pessimistic attitude correlated with success on the field. In his book "Learned Optimism" he claimed that this kind of analysis had some predictive power in who would win the game.

pbhjpbhj 8y ago
Cause or effect though? If you realise the other team are better than yours you could talk realistically about the result and people might interpret that as being negative. Et cetera.
- sjg007 8y ago
  There's a phenomenon in sports and competitive environments that you rise to the level of your competition. In those cases you could win with some luck or strategy.
herf 8y ago
Seligman also teaches children to speak specifically about negative topics (2007 book, The Optimistic Child). His research says that a more optimistic speech pattern can be learned, where you actively reduce "always" sorts of words. He claims to have proven outcomes in reducing depression rates after several years.

azinman2 8y ago

Note this is relative to an older specific analysis technique (LIWC) and on Internet forums about depression/anxiety. Hard to interpret much about how this generalized to, say, text messages to friends.

Telos06 8y ago

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy puts much emphasis on identifying and pushing back against the "black and white" thinking behind such "absolute words". Getting stuck in a false dichotomy of extremes is one of the more damaging thought patterns.

sgt101 8y ago

Some people, who are diagnosed, sometimes.

Ihfhcub 8y ago

One explanation is poor evaluation of evidence in their environment and matching their past to their present environment. CBT deals with this. A black and white way of thinking will lead to poor reasoning and misguided emotions for their environment. Like a conspiracy theorist will distort evidence and confuse the probabilities of unlikely events. They will take weak evidence and deduce distorted statements about the world

insickness 8y ago
Actually evidence shows that depressed people are more realistic about the world than non-depressed people. The converse is true as well: people with unrealistically high ambition tend to do far better than those with realistic views.
- sjg007 8y ago
  I view it as a probability spectrum. Prior default 10% this, 90% that... if you don't do anything you get that 90% outcome.. but you can act!!! And that increases the likelihood of the 10%. This means you need to apply Bayes Law to your thoughts. It also explains reality distortion fields etc...
- xanipher 8y ago
  Depressive realism is still a strongly contested theory. There is also a lot of evidence that depressed people rate themself worse than warranted.
agumonkey 8y ago
That's quite probably a high factor indeed. I often felt like the value of social groups is to smooth out emotions. When you're with people you are a lot less stuck in your own mind and somehow you don't pile up negative thoughts to the point of crippling darkness. Also something I've noticed when trying to meditate (just cleansing my mind, nothing fancy). You can stop thinking and in a few minutes you'll feel just a little upbeat feeling, maybe fun ideas. It's a bit odd and paradoxical but your best choice is not to listen to your negative ideas..

bequiet 8y ago

What most people, including researchers, don’t get is that depression causes distorted thinking. Black and white thinking is merely a symptom of the disorder. CBT’s approach to depression is wildly inaccurate and damaging. If you can change how you feel by changing your perspective you are NOT suffering from clinical depression. You are at worst morose, lethargic, and unmotivated. Depression includes those, but is much more; it calls itself apathy, but is actually a survival mechanism unlike any other. Think of bipolar disorder. Their range goes from -20 to 30 in terms of emotional intensity instead of 0 - 10 for normal people. Except our nervous system can’t really handle that kind of intensity, so every manic episode MUST be followed by a depressive episode, otherwise they would die. Or think of post-partum depression, a state in which a mother’s body has been pushed to the extreme (8 on the pain scale, easily). The body returns to a depressed state to survive until it has recovered. Distorted thought patterns, lack of motivation, and sense of lethargy are merely symptoms of this state.

sjg007 8y ago
While interesting ideas, is there any evidence for any of your claims? In the meantime CBT has been shown in clinical trials to be as effective as drugs although not necessarily as fast acting. CBT has also been shown to last longer.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

aszantu 8y ago

Not meaning to demean anyone's hard work with psychology, but last year I changed my diet and my depression went away almost completely. From routinely wishing to be dead -> to walking a part of the camino trail in europe and being able to hold a job. Turns out, that all symptoms return when I eat carbs or fiber. But even after the depression gone away there are still some issues in thinking and moving slowly, which could be addressed by therapy. But I'm kinda mad that no doctor ever told me about diet and gut-brain connection.

jyriand 8y ago
What did you change in your diet? Changing a diet seems like a hard thing to do while you are suffering from depression.
- kzrdude 8y ago
  Diet changer here, the first rule of diet, before you even look at what you eat, is that you need to eat. I started eating breakfast consistently. Often eating filling food like leftovers.
  - gnulinux 8y ago
    I don't think this is necessarily true. For me, eating anything makes me slightly feel worse, either it's feeling a little tired or something else. That's why sometimes, I eat 2 meals a day and get all my calories (~3000 calories) in two meals.
  - astura 8y ago
    And I feel at my best when I eat at most once a day (with regular fast days). When I eat all day I feel gross and sluggish.
anonymouzz 8y ago
Not sure why you're being downvoted. There's research indicating links between gut bacteria and (among others) mental health: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4662178/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4662178/ And of course one's gut bacteria culture heavily depends on what one eats.

known 8y ago

I'd suggest you to wear https://www.mi.com/in/mi-band-3/ https://www.mi.com/in/mi-band-3/ if you're depressed since you're susceptible to https://lifeinthefastlane.com/what-is-takotsubo/ https://lifeinthefastlane.com/what-is-takotsubo/

deleted 8y ago

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man-and-laptop 8y ago

Taleb claims that most psychological studies suffer from methodological flaws like p-hacking. One should be very sceptical of these kinds of studies and how you interpret them (correlation vs causation). Psychology has recently experienced a replication crisis. More than half of studies have failed to replicate, and those that have, have had lower effect sizes. Also, remember that there are lots of factors in a person's immediate situation that affect how they act. You end up with a "curse of dimensionality" problem, where it's impossible to isolate a general cause that's not specific to a certain situation. By the way, I'm not saying the result is wrong. I'm only urging caution. Don't just believe something because "A study says..." or "Scientists say..." ____________________________________________ I noticed they did their study by comparing mental health forums to other types of forums. That's an awfully specific situation. Let's say I had cancer, and I were writing in a forum full of cancer sufferers, clearly I would use more first-person pronouns, because I'm the cancer sufferer.

Regardsyjc 8y ago
Do you have any recommended books or resources by Taleb or another author on how to identify or avoid methodological flaws like p-hacking, understanding correlation vs causation, and more? I'm currently taking a data science course on Udemy and learning about chi squares, regression, and decision trees, but I'd love more information on best practices especially for experimental design.
- man-and-laptop 8y ago
  Taleb's book The Black Swan has sections comparing heavy-tailed prob. distributions with thin-tailed prob. distributions. The thesis is that you can't tell whether a distribution has fat tails until a fat-tailed event happens (which he calls a black swan). Also goes into the flaws of using induction, the flaws in ascribing causes when there are "silent witnesses", and so on. I don't think there's any specific practical advice. It's more "If you work in economics and other areas, your research may well be doomed." Taleb's advice is often "Don't do this", instead of "Do this". I'm reading Anti-Fragile now. Can't off the top of my head give you advice on experiment design or statistics. [EDIT] It's more about designing systems that benefit from the unpredictability of the world, instead of building systems that are harmed by unpredictability. [EDIT] It's an important companion to his previous book, because it gives positive advice on how to make decisions in a world that isn't amenable to understanding because of complexity. It effectively gives positive advice, instead of just negative. There's also SITG that I'd like to read. And there's a "Technical Incerto" which looks like a work-in-progress, but involves concrete statistics. [edit] He's also tweeting the contents of a new Data Science course he's teaching at NYU. Be warned that Taleb is a bit of an arsehole on Twitter.

chiefalchemist 8y ago

> "More interesting is the use of pronouns. Those with symptoms of depression use significantly more first person singular pronouns – such as “me”, “myself” and “I” – and significantly fewer second and third person pronouns – such as “they”, “them” or “she”. This pattern of pronoun use suggests people with depression are more focused on themselves, and less connected with others." Which raises the question: Is depression a symptom? The root "disease" being the inability to connect / feel connected to others? I suppose futher studies might be able to track language (as a proxy) over time and shed light on correlation vs cause, etc.

KMag 8y ago
I suspect (wildly guess, to be honest) that, like "cancer", "depression" (or even "Melancholic Major Depressive Disorder") is really a name we give to a collection of related diseases with similar symptoms. Teasing apart the various forms will likely improve treatment (and improve quality of studies).
- opportune 8y ago
  Yeah I have known many depressed people and been depressed myself. It seems much more likely to be a symptom than a singular condition, considering how differently people seem to experience it (some with it channel it into being successful, others can’t even get out of bed) its comorbidities, etc paired with how wildly many semi-successful treatments there are (SSRIs, CBT, diet, supplements, exercising/losing weight)
orasis 8y ago
When you’re unwell the focus is naturally more on the self than others. Vitamin D does wonders.
- tyre 8y ago
  Vitamin D is not a medication for depression. Lack of vitamin D can cause depression but it does not “do wonders” for people suffering from depression.

zach43 8y ago

One methodological issue that I can detect in this article is the choice of forums used to draw their conclusions: > We predicted and found that anxiety, depression, and suicidal ideation forums contained more absolutist words than control forums (ds > 3.14). Suicidal ideation forums also contained more absolutist words than anxiety and depression forums (ds > 1.71). I have no knowledge of this field of research, but I'm trouble understanding why its a significant result that self-oriented forums (like "anxiety, depression, and suicidal ideation forums") have more self-oriented words and absolutist words than the control forums (of which 'MumsNet' and 'StudentRoom' are mentioned in the article). In the case of 'MumsNet' at least, you'd almost certainly have a prevalence of second person pronouns.

xivzgrev 8y ago
I’d agree with you, but you are comparing apples and oranges. The selection you quoted focuses on absolute language eg always, never. But the comparison you’re making is on pronoun choice eg I, you, they. You do mention absolutist words but the selection you quoted doesn’t mention pronouns so your critique shouldn’t either.

el_cujo 8y ago

So was their analysis of depressed people purely based on post/comments on mental health forums? To me, it makes sense that if you were going to one of these forums for the express purpose of getting help, of course you'd be using first person pronouns and negative-words, I imagine a lot of the posts would have something to the tune of "I've been feeling sad lately". Likewise, they compare this to formerly-depressed people on a forum explicitly for positive encouragement and found they used more positive-sounding words. The study seems to me to be analyzing whether people stay on topic in these forums more than saying anything about depressed people in general. While this would be much more difficult to accomplish and probably isn't realistic, I think it would be way more helpful to analyze how depressed people post on social media or via text or other "normal" conversation rather than how they interact when they go somewhere to talk about depression/being depressed.

rbosinger 8y ago

I can't wait until our internal email or chat flags me as depressed and I'm forced to go on leave. Can you imagine? And then I call the bank and their phone system decides I'm depressed and locks my accounts to protect me. And then the men in the white coats come. There could be a Black Mirror episode in this (if there isn't already).

brendanmc6 8y ago
Sounds like some low hanging fruit for an API or SaaS product. I'd hope the buyers would be healthcare professionals-- but like you've noted the real markets might be a bit more unpleasant...
- zild3d 8y ago
  "Hi, I'm Clippy! I noticed you used a lot of negative and absolute words in your paper, here are some recommended psychiatrists near you... "

GlenTheMachine 8y ago

My wife has depression, and for the first several years of our marriage it was undiagnosed and untreated. Her use of language is, to this day, the single biggest thing I remember about that time. She used absolutes a lot. Things were "terrible" or "horrible". The house was "a disaster". It was never partly clean, or messy. It was either clean, or a disaster. But the biggest issue was that her perception of the world, including her perception of what people were saying to her - what I was saying to her - was utterly skewed. Anything I said to her, she took in the worst possible light. A compliment that could be shaded negatively, was. If I told her I liked her dress, that was taken as my not liking her other clothes. If I told her I appreciated something she did, that was taken as my not liking anything else she did. Every once in a while I managed to figure out how to say something that was so clear that it couldn't be misinterpreted, and when that happened it was as if I were speaking Greek. The statement literally did not make any sense in her mind. It was fascinating to watch; there was actually a discernible lag as she processed, and figured out how to misinterpret, anything I said. It was as if she had her own private version of English, with her own definitions, which were more black and white (and shaded towards the black) than the vernacular version everyone else spoke. In order to speak with her I had to become conversant in her version of the language. After a while it really felt like she was gaslighting me. Anything I said or did, she took in the worst possible way, and then blamed me for it. It took an enormous amount of emotional fortitude to keep reminding myself that this was fundamentally not my fault. I feel tremendously lucky that I didn't become depressed myself. Happily, she eventually did recognize that something was wrong and got help, and is tons better today. Bit what they say about depression is completely true: your mind is lying to you. I watched it happen. And the even more fascinating thing is that, although she now recognizes she was depressed, she still doesn't remember those times the way I do. Her memories are still skewed. If you are suffering from depression, please seek help. And if you are in a relationship with someone suffering from depression, find emotional support. It isn't your fault.

MrOrelliOReilly 8y ago
> If you are suffering from depression, please seek help. And if you are in a relationship with someone suffering from depression, find emotional support. It isn't your fault. An underrated piece of advice. Not to take at all away from what those with depression are suffering, but supporting a loved one with depression can be a tremendous task in itself, sometimes involving a lot of emotional abuse. Thanks for sharing.

deleted 8y ago

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slantaclaus 8y ago

“This pattern of pronoun use suggests people with depression are more focused on themselves, and less connected with others.“ I believe this is more of a symptom of excessive isolating behavior (an arguable cause of depression) than it is a predisposition towards selfishness.

ivoras 8y ago

That's basically the original observation of NLP (no, not that one) - that people often literally express their mental state through language on a non-trivial level, and IMO still one of the better things which make it worth studying. Just find yourself a trainer who has a similar propensity for metaphysics as you (which can range from 0 to all-in-new-age) since the field has diverged into various interpretations.

momentmaker 8y ago

This reminds me of the first agreement in The Four Agreements by don Miguel Luis. "Be impeccable with your words." The words manifest into thoughts which turn into physical form. The book described words are akin to black magic.

DoreenMichele 8y ago

I'm basically currently losing my shit over my intractable personal problems and the ways in which sexism help keep them intractable. So I don't think I can be rational or socially acceptable at the moment. However, we don’t know whether these findings reflect differences in attention or thinking style. Does depression cause people to focus on themselves, or do people who focus on themselves get symptoms of depression? My belief based on first-hand experience is that social factors drive some people to this. I'm very socially observant. I've apparently been casually announcing that the emperor has no clothes since I was about three years old. I often don't realize I know someone's "secrets" that they imagine they have covered up very successfully. When I casually remark on such things, it gets me hated on. No, I will never ever ever ever be forgiven for it. So, over the years, I have gradually worked at saying less about other people because it's such a mine field. Talking about me and only me as much as I can convinces other people I'm a narcissist, but it's less problematic than me casually asking "The emperor? You mean the deluded naked guy whose delusions everyone is feeding by going along with his bullshit claim that he has some amazing new wardrobe? Is that the guy we're talking about?" This is backed up by data. I mean, the fact that I only talk about me and everyone hates me for it -- or, more accurately, everyone hates me and identifying this habit is one of the excuses they use to justify it. When I was on Metafilter, if you checked their infodump, I used "I" vastly more than any runner up. And I was hated on, which was just a thing Metafilter chose to do to certain people because the site has serious issues. When I joined, it was policy for the mods to pin the drama on one person, blame them, tell them you shut up and stop commenting and then let other people continue attacking them under circumstances where they would get in trouble if they came back to defend themselves. I quickly got on the short list of people where public bear downs by multiple people were not only the norm, God help you if you tried to defend them because that could mean you're next. Depression is often a female issue and, on average, woman tend to be (perceived as) more social. We get tasked with doing emotional labor and get dismissed a lot and can't make as much money for the same job, etc. It's a very crazy-making situation and it's common for therapists to offer women medication instead of advice on how to stop being victimized. I think most men don't really mean to victimize women, so it goes bad places when women point fingers and blame men who are part of the problem. They feel wrongfully accused. Doing so just makes the problem more intractable. But trying to find the right words before you can speak to the problem winds up being a silencing mechanism. It makes it extra hard to try to solve it at all. When every door slams shut in your face no matter what you do, it's hard to not start thinking in absolutist terms of "always" and "never." Even so, I think the absolutist terms are more likely linked to wonky brain chemistry. I have a medical condition. On bad days when I'm feverish, etc, I engage in more absolutist language and I'm not rational. My sons have learned to "not engage the crazy." I say something extreme and irrational, they say "Mom, are you hungry? Are you thirsty? Are you warm enough?" Most of the time, when I'm irrational, getting me fed, hydrated and warm results in me falling asleep in short order. Trying to argue with me about crazy stuff I'm saying just puts out the fire with gasoline. Insisting on only engaging me constructively is more effective. They do sometimes rebut my irrational remarks, but they don't get dragged into arguing it with me. I say "I have no friends" they say "That's not true." They rebut it,but they dont get tired in it. That seems to be a best practice that helps keep me grounded in reality without pissing me off, fueling a sense of hopelessness and despair, etc. Getting healthier and making my life work better has proven to be the best solution. My mental health has gradually improved. I still have days when the bullshit in the world that makes it seemingly impossible for a woman to get anywhere just makes me postal. I'm there right now. The past few days have been terrible in terms of my head space. But most of the time, I'm overall more rational. Most depressed people have serious intractable personal problems that no one knows how to solve. Medicating their feelings ends up de facto being dismissive. Think of it like if Susan B Anthony were put on Valium and told "Women don't need the vote. You're merely crazy. Here, take this. You'll feel better." No, that's not going to figure the myriad problems that grow out of being disenfranchised and disempowered and having no real say in your own life. I think social factors fuel the use of first person pronouns. I think social factors and brain chemistry fuel the use of absolutist terminology. Both get better when the social factors driving it improve. The second seems to also be helped by addressing physiological factors, like exhaustion. /2 cents

salamanderman 8y ago

Describes my speech and internal monologue patterns before I got medications and therapy perfectly.

atulatul 8y ago

I also noticed use of passive voice more than active voice. Not sure if it even has a correlation with depression or lack or control. Just noticed it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_voice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_voice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_voice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_voice