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There's much more to this story. My mother, a high school calculus teacher for the last 22 years is so ready to retire. I didn't think my mom would ever retir

There's much more to this story. My mother, a high school calculus teacher for the last 22 years is so ready to retire. I didn't think my mom would ever retire, she spends countless hours coming up with unique lesson plans for the kids - they usually involve games, real world use cases and many ah-ha moments. She lives for those moments when a kid lights up when they understand the value of what their learning. Now though, over the last 8 years, she told me that parents have ruined the job she loves. Especially now that she has to post everyone's grades online, instantly emails roll in when a student didn't perform as well as the parent expected. She told me of an email she received that said "X is trying to get into Princeton - an A- isn't going to get her in. What extra credit can she do to make this an A?". It's endless and my mom, for fear of a lawsuit, doesn't know what to do. The teachers union in Massachusetts made all the teachers sign liability waivers and arbitration waivers if a lawsuit happens. My mom is scared stiff and either bends over, or doesn't and let's the vice principal or principal take the heat, ultimately it leading to an extra credit assignment. My mom's job sounds miserable and if you were to ask me 15 years ago, what I might do in my retirement - I would have said taught CS at a disadvantaged high school. Now though, I'm seconding guessing that retirement plan.

Balgair 8y ago
My SO quit HS STEM teaching recently, so I have at least some idea of the modern teaching environment. The issue, for my SO, was pay and benefits vs. hassle. My SO has a PhD and decided to give back to the community at an 'impoverished' school. Ho boy, was that a mistake. The first school was a terrible experience and my SO went gray from the place. Though there are a few parents that are as described in the parent comment, the vast majority of parents were all but useless. The HS my SO taught at, and I am not making this up, has a mandatory grading format for every single test/HW given: multiple choice only, only 4 choices are allowed. Combining that with the faux-restorative-justice [0] grading scale, where a 25% score in a class was considered 'passing', and even a goldfish could pass the classes. Yet still, the graduation rate was ~30%, only because of the Air Force Base nearby. Just trying to get the kids to even take the test was impossible, let alone the truancy. The teacher drop-out rate by December was ~50%. Neighboring schools had teacher drop-out rates near 90%. Yes, teacher drop-out rates. Thing is, poverty and racism and violence suck really bad. The many of the parents were desperately poor, ~80% of the children were on free and reduced lunch, and many of those would not eat all weekend long, let alone the apple vs Cheetos 'food desert' debate. Then the physical abuse of the children comes in, and 'home' is not a safe place at all. Then the sexual abuse kicks in, and home is REALLY not a safe place for a some of the teen girls my SO taught. Then you have the flagrant use of phones, the sexting, the porn use, the gore, etc. in the middle of 40+ child classrooms. It was/is a mad-house. It's no wonder all the more well off folks refuse to send their kids to public schools. God knows we would/will. And my SO, with a PhD and therefore 'top' level seniority in the union pay-scale, made ~40k in a large, expensive US city with median houses at ~0.5 million. The benefits were, otherwise, ok-ish. No dental, no vision. The pension (yes, they still have one!) has been gutted since 2008 and is massively underfunded, so a total-write off. Now my SO works in the field that the PhD was/is in and pulls ~80k with amazing benefits/401k. Teaching, like my SO had to do, was in no way worth any of it. My SO did time in 'service' to the local community and now considers the dues paid. [0] Actually, restorative justice models are pretty brilliant, if implemented properly. I think they should be the norm.
fjsolwmv 8y ago
Don't be afraid of teaching at a poverty school. Those families need your help and won't be the ones threatening law suits over As. You'll be thankful for the few parents with the energy, knowledge, and interest to make at involvement in education at all.
frogpelt 8y ago
I'm way late on this comment but you would likely have a completely different set of challenges at a disadvantaged high school than your mom's challenge of a parent complaining about their child's chances of getting into Princeton with an A-minus.
toomuchtodo 8y ago
You might consider still teaching in retirement, but in another country with more respect for educators and less tolerance for the parental behavior currently exhibited in the US (Western Europe perhaps?). We still need good teachers as a species.
Agathos 8y ago
> The teachers union in Massachusetts made all the teachers sign liability waivers and arbitration waivers if a lawsuit happens. Wait what? I thought the union was supposed to at least pretend to look out for the teachers' interests.
- duncan-donuts 8y ago
  I’ve never been in a union, but I’m sure not all unions are created equal. I wonder if unions get in a position where there’s no non-union competition they start to operate in the best interests of the union and not the interests of the people they represent. /shrug I’d love to hear more from the OP about this, fwiw.
  - ntsplnkv2 8y ago
    Unions value the collective. As such, there are people within unions that may not benefit at a certain point in time. For example, someone who has seniority will benefit from being there a long time-perhaps at the expense of a younger member, that may possibly be more talented. When that younger member grows old, it will benefit that member. A lot in silicon valley may scoff at that idea - but we've all seen ageism in our workplace, probably more so than others. It's similar to insurance - just because you don't need it RIGHT NOW doesn't mean you won't in the future. So everyone who doesn't need it pays for the people that do. When you need it, it is there.
  - mcv 8y ago
    If the best interest of the union is not the same as the best interest of the union members (teachers in this case, presumably), there's something seriously wrong.
    - vkou 8y ago
      For the most part, the interests of the teacher's union, and the interests of its constituents are aligned. There's a few edge cases where they aren't. The same can be said for any form of democracy, though.
- 8y ago
kbenson 8y ago
> Especially now that she has to post everyone's grades online, instantly emails roll in when a student didn't perform as well as the parent expected. Not to take away from your point, which I think has merit, from the other side of the spectrum as a parent that has a child that struggled mightily to not fail for the first couple years of high school, the amount that teachers screw up the online grading is incredible. As teachers, if you're getting regular requests from parents worried about assignments showing online with zero/empty values for them that cause the grades to show F and it's just because you haven't finished entering all the work in, maybe find a workflow process that eliminates or reduces the amount of time the system shows that? Seeing multiple F's show online for days at a time leads to tense discussions and arguments with kids, and if it's all resolved with the teacher saying "I haven't finished entering grades yet" you start to really resent the system from the other side too.
- cowsandmilk 8y ago
  You're describing here a different problem, which I know from talking to teachers also causes them stress. The people who make the software cause this problem, not the teachers themselves. They often don't have a way to avoid this and they aren't the ones deciding what software is used.
  - emiliobumachar 8y ago
    Seconded. Showing "F" as a placeholder for pending data entry is a very, very bad idea. Equivalent to a hypothetical email software that autofills "Fuck you" if you don't type anything.
  - kbenson 8y ago
    I assume the simple way to avoid it would be to not create an assignment in the system ready for grades to be entered until you actually have grades to enter. While a way to put an assignment in a state that it doesn't affect overall grades would be good and annoying if missing, it doesn't seem like something that's impossible to work around.
    - 8y ago
ineedasername 8y ago
Okay, I get that's more work, and sounds like a hassle. So this isn't a criticism of your mom. But on the A- and extra credit issue, I never understood the point of rigid grading schemes. I've taught at a college level, and I always give students the chance to improve their grades if they want to put in additional work. To do otherwise seems like saying "nope, even if you learn more and improve to the point of A-level knowledge, you're still getting a lower grade".
- nilkn 8y ago
  It’s more work, and that’s exactly the problem. A teacher deserves to go home and enjoy their family and life outside of work. The only way to make this possible is to have students and parents understand that after a certain point the grade is simply final, so if you want a good grade it’s your responsibility to learn the material prior to exams or large projects or assignments being due. Everyone knows this; there is no secret. So I don’t think it’s fair at all to expect the teacher to do more work for you when you didn’t put in the effort to learn the material the first time.
  - woolvalley 8y ago
    Well it's a pay issue too isn't it? If a family paid for the teachers time for extra work, then I'm guessing the pushback wouldn't be as bad.
    - nilkn 8y ago
      I was tempted to agree when I read this, but then I thought that this creates an unfair advantage for parents who can afford to pay for extra time from the teacher.
      - tokyodude 8y ago
        So the parent with more money pay for a different tutor. What's the difference? Or are suggesting the parents with more money should not be allowed to pay for there kids to do anything a parent with less money can't afford?
stupidbird 8y ago
>She told me of an email she received that said "X is trying to get into Princeton - an A- isn't going to get her in. What extra credit can she do to make this an A?". Get off your kids ass, for starters, lady
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
  That may or may not be an accurate characterisation of the circumstances. And it’s hard to argue with working harder / smarter / longer to achieve better outcomes as an option.
  - village-idiot 8y ago
    Riding your kids too hard also causes burnout and rebellion
    - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
      Again, that may or may not be an accurate characterisation of the circumstances. The parent may genuinely be writing at the students request. It’s seems reasonable there may be at least some students who genuinely want to do more work to improve their chances of being accepted in to their preferred choice at the next level.
      - tomjakubowski 8y ago
        If it's the parent writing at the student's request… I'd think it'd be more effective if the student themself emailed the teacher about the grade, wouldn't it?
        concerned_user 8y ago
        I think the kid themselves have no motivation and what is happening is their parent projecting their dreams and actually ruining their kid's life and future for years to come. I am assuming kid will struggle in the top school anyways because of parents not being able to control as much anymore and since self-motivation was never trained it will be hard to do things on your own. You might say that parents will use same approach in top school as well, but if they had that kind of power I guess they would not need to put their kid into a public school in the first place.
djrobstep 8y ago
What's sad is that all this desperate competition by parents to improve their kid's grades is zero-sum: A noisy but pointless rearrangement of positions on the socio-economic ladder. One kid getting into Princeton means another misses out. Very little of it results in actual useful learning or eventual public benefit.
- hn_throwaway_99 8y ago
  Uh, welcome to life? > A noisy but pointless rearrangement of positions on the socio-economic ladder. Not pointless to the people on that ladder.
- esturk 8y ago
  But that's how most of society works. Only one elected official is selected. Only one co-worker is promoted. Etc. I don't think society cares who fills the position but said individuals care.
  - bumby 8y ago
    Society cares when it comes at the price of a true meritocracy. The book "Dream Hoarders" speaks to this
  - djrobstep 8y ago
    Hmm, sounds bad, perhaps it's time to rethink having such a stratified socio-economic ladder?
- robertAngst 8y ago
  As someone who went to a University you never heard of, I'm the highest paid in my group. I wont forget this in the future for my children. Your skills are more important than the prestige of your school.
  - jogjayr 8y ago
    > Your skills are more important than the prestige of your school. I'd disagree slightly. All of Mark Zuckerberg's college roommates are billionaires or half-billionaires - mostly because they were his roommates. Obviously they brought their own skills to the table but there existed other people in the world at that time with those skills too. These specific people got to be in the rocket ship when it was on the ground, because they were at Harvard. Otherwise, they'd (probably) only have very successful careers, instead of their current wealth and status. I think having a "prestige" school on your resume opens some doors far more easily.
Shivetya 8y ago
in a similar vein, my aunt who is going for a few more years than your mom noted that the ratio of non teaching jobs to teaching narrowed considerably and she ended moving from a city system to a county system because of all the appointees from the mayor's office which ate up funds they could use for other needs. throw in that many of the non teaching jobs are being held in higher regard and also quick to deflect the ire of parents onto the teachers and it is hard to see the reward. he latest beef in the last decade has been the rise of "student rights" - as in you have to tip toe around some who take offense at everything with mommy and daddy riding to the rescue and the admins throwning the teacher under the bus.
- dba7dba 8y ago
  It is a very curious thing that administrators in school districts are held in higher regard than the teachers. Programmers are held in higher regard because they do the actual work, if you know what I mean. Everyone else is in a support role. And yet in school administrators are paid higher and have it easier, because they don't have to deal with parents directly.
  - jogjayr 8y ago
    > Programmers are held in higher regard because they do the actual work, if you know what I mean. I've found that to be the case in very few of the organizations I've worked at.
    - Aeolun 8y ago
      Programmers are just the grunts there to give the business users satisfaction.
  - ams6110 8y ago
    Administrators do have to deal with parents, and with the press, and with the police, etc. I'm not saying their job is more important than teaching, but they will be the ones facing the public when anything bad or embarrassing happens at the school.
dorchadas 8y ago
I'm a current teacher, and I've noticed this. I have a kid who doesn't want to do anything in class except sit on his phone. Anytime I post a poor grade, his mom emails me asking what can be done to make it higher. The kid has never once asked for himself, and, even though I've told the mother multiple times that the biggest issue is her kid being lazy, nothing changes.
grecy 8y ago
My entire family are teachers (Mum, Dad, Sister, Brother), and have all had to deal with this to varying degrees, and have had it consume their lives at various times. My brother has the best work-life balance of any teacher I have ever met, and I think his approach is brilliant. Teaching is one of those careers where the expectation is on the teacher to endlessly do more and work harder, "For the kids", and if you keep doing it, you'll work more and harder forever, endlessly. My brother does a fantastic job, and works very hard for his students. What he does though, is walk out at 4pm and NEVER does work at home. He doesn't check his emails, he doesn't grade work and maybe only once or twice in five years has he done a lesson plan outside 8am-4pm. If parent emails, or meetings, or "school paperwork" or whatever queue up he just makes it infinitely clear that he must choose between doing the best job for his students, or spend time with the parents or at school meetings. He does do thing pro-actively like call parents if need-be, but he does not spend hours of his personal time dealing with "helicopter parents" or stupid school meeting requirements. It requires the right balance of "push back", but it can work very well when done correctly. FWIW, he has quickly been promoted to the head of maths and had a real shot at a "leading teacher" position, so obviously he's very good and the entire school-body agrees.
- alistairSH 8y ago
  I had a teacher like that in high school. He taught AP/Honors government and had some of the highest pass rates for any teacher in the school. He stayed after school for a fixed time - 30 or 45 minutes - no longer - and most of that was spent with students. It took him FOREVER to grade tests and assignments. But, he was one of the best teachers I had in those 4 years and I, along with most of my peers, aced both exams that year (he did AP US gov in one semester and AP comparative gov in the other).
- e1g 8y ago
  Presumably the backpresure of requests does not go away - when parents email for information, they do not stop just because they didn’t get a response. They will reach out through other methods. Do you know how that irreducible workload gets resolved, other than getting passed to colleagues who do put in extra effort/hours?
apron1 8y ago
What did anyone expect when everyone whole-heartedly supported more mandatory testing and measurement intiatives to help failing schools, almost about a decade back? If you start emphasizing test scores, that's all that will be optimized.
- sopooneo 8y ago
  I think you have a point. But in my experience with two polar opposite schools in Massachusetts, the ones that have a lot of "helicopter parents" don't have any issue with passing rates on the mandatory state tests. They're at over 98% passing. The tests the parents in such wealthy schools get upset about are the teacher assigned ones. But again, I only have deep knowledge of two schools, so am happy to be corrected if I'm on off this.
  - apron1 8y ago
    I think more testing initiatives, whether to help failing schools or in top schools are misinformed at best and cancer at worst. They eventually would converge to east asia style meaningless competitive exams which are utterly destructive to any actual learning.
joe_the_user 8y ago
She told me of an email she received that said "X is trying to get into Princeton - an A- isn't going to get her in. What extra credit can she do to make this an A?" That's a horrible thing to say ... except I could even say from bitter experience that Princeton vs whatever-public-college is indeed a jump in *perceived( quality of education (there has been discussion of 150K vs 80K programming here and while they shouldn't revolve around Princeton or not, often they do. Appearances matter, sadly). And that's the thing right, when everyone is pushing to get to those small number of nice jobs, nice houses for rent or buy, nice etc., sure the nastiness is terrible but it's part of the fabric of it all. Hate the fabric, not the player, so to speak.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- erikpukinskis 8y ago
  Princeton doesn’t provide any better instruction than a good state school. What it provides is a circle of friends for your son or daughter that come from a different socioeconomic class. Which will allow your kids to operate smoothly in that class when they get out of college.
  - Aeolun 8y ago
    And feel like the pauper their entire college period?
    - erikpukinskis 8y ago
      Maybe. But still leave a pauper who understands how princes think.
bjourne 8y ago
That complaint doesn't make any sense. I can understand teachers complaining about kids disturbing their lessons, are unruly and threaten them with violence and so on. I can not understand teachers complaining about kids being extra ambitious and doing what they can to get the highest grades! I'll get downvoted for this, but if your moms worst problem is overachievers and parents caring about their children's education, she needs to suck it up. :)
- fromthestart 8y ago
  There's a line between caring about your children and helicoptering and/or demanding special treatment for your child. If you care about your children, you teach them to work and study, or at least approach the teacher on their own for things like extra credit. The teacher probably has 20+ students. How much extra time per student do you expect him or her to suck up so that everyone's special child can make it into Princeton? Plus, isn't the point of grades a measure of ability? If we can just erase any bad grade at a parent's discretion, what's the point in having grades at all? The whole system in my opinion is rotting. We seem to be increasingly reluctant in the U.S. to measure merit - but in this case, if nobody loses, then nobody wins. Sometimes that's life. Princeton only has prestige because it is selective, and that selectiveness depends on some kind of measure of entrant ability.
- lachm 8y ago
  Caring about education and caring about grades can be very very distinct.
  - threatofrain 8y ago
    As distinct as a chicken is from an egg, since grades lead to tracking.
- jogjayr 8y ago
  Asking the teacher to set and grade extra credit work because a student didn't get the grade they wanted isn't fair to the teacher. I don't think the teacher is the one that needs to "suck it up" here ;-). The student could just try not going to Princeton - most of the world hasn't studied there and done fine.
agumonkey 8y ago
This lawsuit first life has spread everywhere. I've read it for surgeons, now teachers .. I don't understand how we slid into this..
credit_guy 8y ago
I have a view from both sides of this issue. I have school-age kids and my wife is a math professor (though college level, not pre-college). As a parent, I'm aware how important in life it is to have a good college on your resume. And how much more important it will be 20 years from now. I have the fortune to be able to show a STEM degree from a well respected (at leas in HN world) institution; this gave me a huge boost in my career. The odds to be admitted at such a university nowadays, if you are educated in the US, are lower and lower each day. Every single day, the US gets a little bit behind in the education race. That's why lots of upper-middle class parents are totally obsessed with their kids academic performance. Tiger-parenting and all. Now from the other side, my wife is a model of efficiency. She receives lots of emails from students disappointed with their grades (even today she got some; we are in post-exam period). She's very calm about it. She knows she did her job well, so she simply doesn't care about whiners. She never had to deal with an escalation though (i.e. lawsuit, arbitration, etc). I guess my point is that teachers have to simply get more thick-skinned. Just do your job, and let the whiners whine all they want. They are scared stiff themselves after all.
- tranced 8y ago
  A lot of people teach for different reasons in different environments. I'm not sure if it's just about the whiners but also when the whiners permeate the entire institution you're working in. The "lazy" teacher trope is a thing because the floor for teaching is so low and the ceiling can be so high while pay stays the same. I guess I'm privileged enough(or type A enough) to want more. Sometimes I wish I could just do my job. That way, I'd be happy with being a bus driver or a cop or something(they both have really good pensions).
ghufran_syed 8y ago
I had a math professor at Berkeley who used to be a high school math teacher, but started doing an MS just so he could teach at community college and not have to deal with parents. Worked out well for him, he ended up doing a PhD and on the faculty at Berkeley
trevyn 8y ago
Seems reasonable; grades are only partially a function of raw potential — effort plays a huge role as well. If a student is good enough to get an A-, I see no reason why demonstrating a certain amount of additional effort (extra credit) couldn’t get her to an A.
- Wowfunhappy 8y ago
  The student demonstrated an adequate amount of effort to achieve an A-. Any "additional" effort should have been expended at that time. Alternately, the student can put that effort towards future assignments. If the teacher wants to give out opportunities for extra credit (maybe because they feel the class is particularly challenging in general), they can do so. But students and parents are not entitled to extra credit, particularly those who already received a very respectable grade. (I realize that for certain colleges, an A- isn't enough, but inflating everyone's grade doesn't help the situation.)
- quickben 8y ago
  Whats the point of grading if there are repeats only for some?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
JumpCrisscross 8y ago
> X is trying to get into Princeton - an A- isn't going to get her in. What extra credit can she do to make this an A? That parent is an ass. Having grown up in a family where my parents deferred to teachers over me, even when the former was wrong to the point of harassment, however, it’s an understandable instinct. Administrators don’t protect children. Boards don’t protect children. That only leaves parents, unchecked. If students had proper means through which to pursue grievances against teachers, I’d hope these parental impulses would recede.
kokokokoko 8y ago
If anyone has ever lived by the mantra "The worst that can happen is that they will say no.", this is what happens to a culture as a whole as more and more people behave that way.
- huntertwo 8y ago
  Especially when people are conditioned to be afraid of saying no. A lot of issues can be resolved with a “no” response.
- jawns 8y ago
  I don't think there's anything wrong with the mantra. But the "this" you refer to doesn't really illustrate a problem with it. Here's how these exchanges SHOULD go ... Kid: Could I do extra credit to bring my grade up? Teacher: No, I'm sorry, the grade won't change. Kid: Okay. (thinks to himself, "Well, it was worth a shot") The unhealthy thing is not the venturing to ask. It's not accepting a reasonable answer when it is given: Kid: Could I do extra credit to bring my grade up? Teacher: No, I'm sorry, the grade won't change. Kid: How dare you. You'll be hearing from my parents. (or, more likely) Parent: Could my kid do extra credit to bring his grade up? Teacher: No, I'm sorry, the grade won't change. Parent: How dare you. I'm going over your head.
MarkMc 8y ago
Wait - so teachers in Massachusetts are not protected from lawsuits by their union or the schools? That's messed up
- caseysoftware 8y ago
  Serious question.. if the union isn't defending the teachers from bs lawsuits for legitimately doing their jobs, what is it doing?
  - gbear605 8y ago
    Negotiating pay and defending teachers from the administration
  - mythrwy 8y ago
    Maybe it's too busy defending teachers from not doing their jobs and doesn't have time to defend teachers doing their jobs?
hkmurakami 8y ago
As an alum who has interviewed many applicants to the school, an A- va A isn’t going to be the difference in an admissions decision. I’m just saying this so your mother may have more peace of mind regarding that email.
8bitsrule 8y ago
"What extra credit can she do to make this an A?" "She can't, because that's the grade she earned in the time alloted. The moving finger, having writ, has moved on. "However, I'm confident that, with Janie's capabilities, a little more effort from her and help from you, she can easily demonstrate a higher level of mastery and the consequent benefits from longer-term retention. "Princeton will NOT be a picnic, and developing excellent habits at this time will pay back many-fold. This A- is a vote of confidence that there is room and talent for improvement."
- fjsolwmv 8y ago
  Time alloted? Why does earning calculus have a 4 month expiration date? Why are we blaming the victims for the oppressive irrational grading system?
- paulcole 8y ago
  It doesn’t stop at high school. No rich parent is paying $50k a year so their kid can get a C.
  - thatfrenchguy 8y ago
    Where do you think those Ivy League educated can’t-do-anything people you interview everyday come from ?
  - Aeolun 8y ago
    50k for the opportunity to score an A. Not for the guarantee. That would make the A utterly valueless.
    - paulcole 8y ago
      An honors degree from Harvard (or another Ivy) is still rare (with respect to the general public) and has value even if everyone who graduates gets one.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
lackbeard 8y ago
> The teachers union in Massachusetts made all the teachers sign liability waivers and arbitration waivers if a lawsuit happens. What does this mean exactly?
erikpukinskis 8y ago
I’d just pick a charity, tell them they can make a donation. Each $1000 they donate gets them a third of a level. A- to A just costs a grand. There’s no corruption on my part because I don’t keep the money.
sqldba 8y ago
I’m surprised that extra credit even exists. My high school and university had no such thing.
- denimnerd42 8y ago
  it usually doesn't. doesn't stop people from begging for it.
- freehunter 8y ago
  I was a slow runner in high school, and in gym class a friend of mine had a habit of lapping me not only to finish the class but then looping around to keep me encouraged to finish my own lap. He did not care about his own grade, but I asked about extra credit for him because he wasn't just running his own mile, but more like a mile and a half to encourage me. The teacher refused my request to give him extra credit, saying my physical fitness was not his responsibility so he deserved no credit for my sake. Not saying that was right or wrong, just backing up your statement of "my high school and university had no such thing" as extra credit. Sometimes doing exactly what's required is the most you're going to get credit for.
crankylinuxuser 8y ago
Well then, perhaps its about time to pass someone on basis of competency rather than attaching some arbitrary grade at some point in time, that has poor correlation to future skills. Allowing someone to continue trying and learning seems much better method rather than "whoops you had test anxiety or had insomnia and flunked your singular test". And if this is what's needed and is being forced on US's teachers, so be it.
graycat 8y ago
Calculus? Freshman college calculus, never took it. Just read a book and started the class on sophomore calculus. Teaching calculus? Been there; done that, as a math grad student. Easy to teach -- off the back of my hand. Zero time for preparation. Now with D. Knuth's TeX, it would be easy to pass out very nicely polished class notes, examples, exercises, applications, etc. Here's an application that might interest the students. At one time it literally saved FedEx from going out of business. The BoD wanted some revenue projections for the full, planned fleet and business. So, we knew what the revenue was then and what the revenue should be for the full planned fleet. So, the projections were essentially an interpolation. So, there would be growth, and what would drive that growth? Okay, assume the rate of growth is proportional to (1) the number of current customers talking about FedEx and (2) the number of the rest of the target customers hearing the talking. So, for time t, with t = 0 being the present, let y(t) be the revenue per day at time t. So, we know y(0), the current revenue. Let b be the revenue per day of the full, planned fleet and business. Then at time t, the number of customers talking is proportional to y(t) and the number of the rest of the customers listening is proportional to (b - y(t)). So, for some constant of proportionality k, we have that the growth rate in revenue per day is d/dt y(t) = y'(t) = k y(t) (b - y(t)) where we have y(0) and b. So, this is an initial value problem for a first order, linear, ordinary differential equation, but just freshman calculus is plenty to solve it in closed form. Sure, the solution has some exponentials. I'll post the solution later on request! So, one day Senior VP Planning Mike Basch and I picked a value of k that yielded a reasonable graph, and I drew the graph. That was Friday. The BoD meeting was the morning, Saturday, with Mike traveling. At noon I got a call from Senior VP Roger Frock asking if I knew about the revenue projections and could I come to the BoD meeting? I did and did. When I got there, the graph was on a table, and our two representatives of BoD member General Dynamics were standing in the hall with their bags packed. No one was happy. Roger pointed to a few places on the graph, and I used my HP calculator to reproduce the points. Everyone got happy. Later I learned that the graph had been presented to the BoD early in the meeting; the General Dynamics guys asked how the graph was calculated; all the FedEx people at the meeting tried to learn how; near noon the Dynamics guys gave up on FedEx, got plane tickets back to Texas, went to their rented rooms and packed, and as a last resort returned to the BoD meeting and were standing in the hall when I arrived. With my results, they unpacked and stayed. Had they left, FedEx would have ended. So, just a little calculus saved FedEx, and since I was the only one around who knew still knew calculus I was the only one who understood the solution. The projections were a smooth curve that rose slowly, rose more quickly, had an inflection point, rose less quickly, and became asymptotic from below at b. So, the curve was a lazy S. I suspect that the curve is the famous logistic curve also important in, say, the elements in neural networks and has long been seen as a good, first cut description of the growth of new products, e.g., TV sets when they were new. With the way I derived the curve, it is an axiomatic approach to viral growth or word of mouth market growth. There is lots of nice stuff that can be done with calculus. For more with calculus, I would recommend famous texts by Apostol, Rudin, Royden, and Rudin again, through measure theory and then texts by Loeve, Breiman, Neveu, and Chung for the connections with probability. The third edition of Rudin's Priciples does very well with the modern Stokes theorem, exterior algebra of differential forms, and the inverse and implicit function theorems. The first half of Rudin's Real and Complex Analysis does well with measure theory and introductions to functional analysis. The Apostol text is Mathematical Analysis: A Modern Approach to Advanced Calculus -- it's NOT very "modern" but gives a lot of what need to know to read mathematical physics, especially Maxwell's equations. For stochastic processes, Doob, Karatsas and Shreve. For Princeton and its department of Operations Research and Financial Engineering, the more elementary parts of stochastic optimal control via, say, Nemhauser, Dreyfus and Law, Bertsekas and Shreve, Dynkin and Yushkevich, etc.
oh_sigh 8y ago
How does one get into a lawsuit over not assigning non-existent extra credit?
twtw 8y ago
This sounds a lot like my mom's situation. In the last decade, parents and admins have made her job terrible. The parents make similar demands regarding grades - if their kid does poorly on an exam, it doesn't even enter into their mind that they didn't study or are super lazy, it's automatically the teacher's fault for making the test too hard or teaching the material poorly. Same goes for kids failing a class because they never turn in assignments - the teacher is failing to sufficiently motivate their student. This would be manageable but for the fact that the administration always takes the side of the parents. If a kid cheats on a test, it's a "coping mechanism" or a "useful real world skill - there's no black and white" - this for a kid who literally broke into a filing cabinet to get the answer key. When kids fail tests, the administration or counsellors pressure the teachers to make easier versions of the test, extend the time limits, or give credit for test corrections. Several time teachers have resisted, because this totally undermines the information content of grades and takes a massive amount of extra teacher time (grading, writing, proctoring), and it's gone over poorly for the teacher. The end result of all this is that the most entitled children or those with the most "engaged" parents get As, even if they earn a C,D, or F on the baseline system, while students who earn Bs but don't squeak get As. I've been trying to convince her to just give the whole class As for years. It's a pretty awful experience - I'm surprised anyone still teaches and would have quit years ago.
- Jach 8y ago
  > I've been trying to convince her to just give the whole class As for years. That's probably what I would do, at least if this became a problem. I'd still maintain an unofficial parallel "rank" that more corresponds to what I think a grade should be, purely for mine and my students' own benefit in knowing about information gaps, but on their official transcripts it'd be very hard not to get an A just so I don't have to deal with parents/admins as much. (Having a reputation for 'easy A' can also help in keeping the classes full.)
bryanrasmussen 8y ago
I think asking about possible extra credit to up the grade, especially from a - to the not - version is pretty ok. No profanity was involved right.
gaius 8y ago
she told me that parents have ruined the job she loves One of our guests for Christmas was telling us stories about this, she teaches art, and says it’s normal for her to check her work email on Monday morning and find that parents have sent a series of increasingly angry emails over the weekend demanding an instant response. This is in the UK.
burmer 8y ago
Which union was this? I was trying to explain this to my wife, who is a teacher, and she was shellshocked, so I wanted to check on the details.

Balgair 8y ago

My SO quit HS STEM teaching recently, so I have at least some idea of the modern teaching environment. The issue, for my SO, was pay and benefits vs. hassle. My SO has a PhD and decided to give back to the community at an 'impoverished' school. Ho boy, was that a mistake. The first school was a terrible experience and my SO went gray from the place. Though there are a few parents that are as described in the parent comment, the vast majority of parents were all but useless. The HS my SO taught at, and I am not making this up, has a mandatory grading format for every single test/HW given: multiple choice only, only 4 choices are allowed. Combining that with the faux-restorative-justice [0] grading scale, where a 25% score in a class was considered 'passing', and even a goldfish could pass the classes. Yet still, the graduation rate was ~30%, only because of the Air Force Base nearby. Just trying to get the kids to even take the test was impossible, let alone the truancy. The teacher drop-out rate by December was ~50%. Neighboring schools had teacher drop-out rates near 90%. Yes, teacher drop-out rates. Thing is, poverty and racism and violence suck really bad. The many of the parents were desperately poor, ~80% of the children were on free and reduced lunch, and many of those would not eat all weekend long, let alone the apple vs Cheetos 'food desert' debate. Then the physical abuse of the children comes in, and 'home' is not a safe place at all. Then the sexual abuse kicks in, and home is REALLY not a safe place for a some of the teen girls my SO taught. Then you have the flagrant use of phones, the sexting, the porn use, the gore, etc. in the middle of 40+ child classrooms. It was/is a mad-house. It's no wonder all the more well off folks refuse to send their kids to public schools. God knows we would/will. And my SO, with a PhD and therefore 'top' level seniority in the union pay-scale, made ~40k in a large, expensive US city with median houses at ~0.5 million. The benefits were, otherwise, ok-ish. No dental, no vision. The pension (yes, they still have one!) has been gutted since 2008 and is massively underfunded, so a total-write off. Now my SO works in the field that the PhD was/is in and pulls ~80k with amazing benefits/401k. Teaching, like my SO had to do, was in no way worth any of it. My SO did time in 'service' to the local community and now considers the dues paid. [0] Actually, restorative justice models are pretty brilliant, if implemented properly. I think they should be the norm.

fjsolwmv 8y ago

Don't be afraid of teaching at a poverty school. Those families need your help and won't be the ones threatening law suits over As. You'll be thankful for the few parents with the energy, knowledge, and interest to make at involvement in education at all.

frogpelt 8y ago

I'm way late on this comment but you would likely have a completely different set of challenges at a disadvantaged high school than your mom's challenge of a parent complaining about their child's chances of getting into Princeton with an A-minus.

toomuchtodo 8y ago

You might consider still teaching in retirement, but in another country with more respect for educators and less tolerance for the parental behavior currently exhibited in the US (Western Europe perhaps?). We still need good teachers as a species.

Agathos 8y ago

> The teachers union in Massachusetts made all the teachers sign liability waivers and arbitration waivers if a lawsuit happens. Wait what? I thought the union was supposed to at least pretend to look out for the teachers' interests.

duncan-donuts 8y ago
I’ve never been in a union, but I’m sure not all unions are created equal. I wonder if unions get in a position where there’s no non-union competition they start to operate in the best interests of the union and not the interests of the people they represent. /shrug I’d love to hear more from the OP about this, fwiw.
- ntsplnkv2 8y ago
  Unions value the collective. As such, there are people within unions that may not benefit at a certain point in time. For example, someone who has seniority will benefit from being there a long time-perhaps at the expense of a younger member, that may possibly be more talented. When that younger member grows old, it will benefit that member. A lot in silicon valley may scoff at that idea - but we've all seen ageism in our workplace, probably more so than others. It's similar to insurance - just because you don't need it RIGHT NOW doesn't mean you won't in the future. So everyone who doesn't need it pays for the people that do. When you need it, it is there.
- mcv 8y ago
  If the best interest of the union is not the same as the best interest of the union members (teachers in this case, presumably), there's something seriously wrong.
  - vkou 8y ago
    For the most part, the interests of the teacher's union, and the interests of its constituents are aligned. There's a few edge cases where they aren't. The same can be said for any form of democracy, though.
8y ago

kbenson 8y ago

> Especially now that she has to post everyone's grades online, instantly emails roll in when a student didn't perform as well as the parent expected. Not to take away from your point, which I think has merit, from the other side of the spectrum as a parent that has a child that struggled mightily to not fail for the first couple years of high school, the amount that teachers screw up the online grading is incredible. As teachers, if you're getting regular requests from parents worried about assignments showing online with zero/empty values for them that cause the grades to show F and it's just because you haven't finished entering all the work in, maybe find a workflow process that eliminates or reduces the amount of time the system shows that? Seeing multiple F's show online for days at a time leads to tense discussions and arguments with kids, and if it's all resolved with the teacher saying "I haven't finished entering grades yet" you start to really resent the system from the other side too.

cowsandmilk 8y ago
You're describing here a different problem, which I know from talking to teachers also causes them stress. The people who make the software cause this problem, not the teachers themselves. They often don't have a way to avoid this and they aren't the ones deciding what software is used.
- emiliobumachar 8y ago
  Seconded. Showing "F" as a placeholder for pending data entry is a very, very bad idea. Equivalent to a hypothetical email software that autofills "Fuck you" if you don't type anything.
- kbenson 8y ago
  I assume the simple way to avoid it would be to not create an assignment in the system ready for grades to be entered until you actually have grades to enter. While a way to put an assignment in a state that it doesn't affect overall grades would be good and annoying if missing, it doesn't seem like something that's impossible to work around.
  - 8y ago

ineedasername 8y ago

Okay, I get that's more work, and sounds like a hassle. So this isn't a criticism of your mom. But on the A- and extra credit issue, I never understood the point of rigid grading schemes. I've taught at a college level, and I always give students the chance to improve their grades if they want to put in additional work. To do otherwise seems like saying "nope, even if you learn more and improve to the point of A-level knowledge, you're still getting a lower grade".

nilkn 8y ago
It’s more work, and that’s exactly the problem. A teacher deserves to go home and enjoy their family and life outside of work. The only way to make this possible is to have students and parents understand that after a certain point the grade is simply final, so if you want a good grade it’s your responsibility to learn the material prior to exams or large projects or assignments being due. Everyone knows this; there is no secret. So I don’t think it’s fair at all to expect the teacher to do more work for you when you didn’t put in the effort to learn the material the first time.
- woolvalley 8y ago
  Well it's a pay issue too isn't it? If a family paid for the teachers time for extra work, then I'm guessing the pushback wouldn't be as bad.
  - nilkn 8y ago
    I was tempted to agree when I read this, but then I thought that this creates an unfair advantage for parents who can afford to pay for extra time from the teacher.
    - tokyodude 8y ago
      So the parent with more money pay for a different tutor. What's the difference? Or are suggesting the parents with more money should not be allowed to pay for there kids to do anything a parent with less money can't afford?

stupidbird 8y ago

>She told me of an email she received that said "X is trying to get into Princeton - an A- isn't going to get her in. What extra credit can she do to make this an A?". Get off your kids ass, for starters, lady

TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
That may or may not be an accurate characterisation of the circumstances. And it’s hard to argue with working harder / smarter / longer to achieve better outcomes as an option.
- village-idiot 8y ago
  Riding your kids too hard also causes burnout and rebellion
  - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
    Again, that may or may not be an accurate characterisation of the circumstances. The parent may genuinely be writing at the students request. It’s seems reasonable there may be at least some students who genuinely want to do more work to improve their chances of being accepted in to their preferred choice at the next level.
    - tomjakubowski 8y ago
      If it's the parent writing at the student's request… I'd think it'd be more effective if the student themself emailed the teacher about the grade, wouldn't it?
      - concerned_user 8y ago
        I think the kid themselves have no motivation and what is happening is their parent projecting their dreams and actually ruining their kid's life and future for years to come. I am assuming kid will struggle in the top school anyways because of parents not being able to control as much anymore and since self-motivation was never trained it will be hard to do things on your own. You might say that parents will use same approach in top school as well, but if they had that kind of power I guess they would not need to put their kid into a public school in the first place.

djrobstep 8y ago

What's sad is that all this desperate competition by parents to improve their kid's grades is zero-sum: A noisy but pointless rearrangement of positions on the socio-economic ladder. One kid getting into Princeton means another misses out. Very little of it results in actual useful learning or eventual public benefit.

hn_throwaway_99 8y ago
Uh, welcome to life? > A noisy but pointless rearrangement of positions on the socio-economic ladder. Not pointless to the people on that ladder.
esturk 8y ago
But that's how most of society works. Only one elected official is selected. Only one co-worker is promoted. Etc. I don't think society cares who fills the position but said individuals care.
- bumby 8y ago
  Society cares when it comes at the price of a true meritocracy. The book "Dream Hoarders" speaks to this
- djrobstep 8y ago
  Hmm, sounds bad, perhaps it's time to rethink having such a stratified socio-economic ladder?
robertAngst 8y ago
As someone who went to a University you never heard of, I'm the highest paid in my group. I wont forget this in the future for my children. Your skills are more important than the prestige of your school.
- jogjayr 8y ago
  > Your skills are more important than the prestige of your school. I'd disagree slightly. All of Mark Zuckerberg's college roommates are billionaires or half-billionaires - mostly because they were his roommates. Obviously they brought their own skills to the table but there existed other people in the world at that time with those skills too. These specific people got to be in the rocket ship when it was on the ground, because they were at Harvard. Otherwise, they'd (probably) only have very successful careers, instead of their current wealth and status. I think having a "prestige" school on your resume opens some doors far more easily.

Shivetya 8y ago

in a similar vein, my aunt who is going for a few more years than your mom noted that the ratio of non teaching jobs to teaching narrowed considerably and she ended moving from a city system to a county system because of all the appointees from the mayor's office which ate up funds they could use for other needs. throw in that many of the non teaching jobs are being held in higher regard and also quick to deflect the ire of parents onto the teachers and it is hard to see the reward. he latest beef in the last decade has been the rise of "student rights" - as in you have to tip toe around some who take offense at everything with mommy and daddy riding to the rescue and the admins throwning the teacher under the bus.

dba7dba 8y ago
It is a very curious thing that administrators in school districts are held in higher regard than the teachers. Programmers are held in higher regard because they do the actual work, if you know what I mean. Everyone else is in a support role. And yet in school administrators are paid higher and have it easier, because they don't have to deal with parents directly.
- jogjayr 8y ago
  > Programmers are held in higher regard because they do the actual work, if you know what I mean. I've found that to be the case in very few of the organizations I've worked at.
  - Aeolun 8y ago
    Programmers are just the grunts there to give the business users satisfaction.
- ams6110 8y ago
  Administrators do have to deal with parents, and with the press, and with the police, etc. I'm not saying their job is more important than teaching, but they will be the ones facing the public when anything bad or embarrassing happens at the school.

dorchadas 8y ago

I'm a current teacher, and I've noticed this. I have a kid who doesn't want to do anything in class except sit on his phone. Anytime I post a poor grade, his mom emails me asking what can be done to make it higher. The kid has never once asked for himself, and, even though I've told the mother multiple times that the biggest issue is her kid being lazy, nothing changes.

grecy 8y ago

My entire family are teachers (Mum, Dad, Sister, Brother), and have all had to deal with this to varying degrees, and have had it consume their lives at various times. My brother has the best work-life balance of any teacher I have ever met, and I think his approach is brilliant. Teaching is one of those careers where the expectation is on the teacher to endlessly do more and work harder, "For the kids", and if you keep doing it, you'll work more and harder forever, endlessly. My brother does a fantastic job, and works very hard for his students. What he does though, is walk out at 4pm and NEVER does work at home. He doesn't check his emails, he doesn't grade work and maybe only once or twice in five years has he done a lesson plan outside 8am-4pm. If parent emails, or meetings, or "school paperwork" or whatever queue up he just makes it infinitely clear that he must choose between doing the best job for his students, or spend time with the parents or at school meetings. He does do thing pro-actively like call parents if need-be, but he does not spend hours of his personal time dealing with "helicopter parents" or stupid school meeting requirements. It requires the right balance of "push back", but it can work very well when done correctly. FWIW, he has quickly been promoted to the head of maths and had a real shot at a "leading teacher" position, so obviously he's very good and the entire school-body agrees.

alistairSH 8y ago
I had a teacher like that in high school. He taught AP/Honors government and had some of the highest pass rates for any teacher in the school. He stayed after school for a fixed time - 30 or 45 minutes - no longer - and most of that was spent with students. It took him FOREVER to grade tests and assignments. But, he was one of the best teachers I had in those 4 years and I, along with most of my peers, aced both exams that year (he did AP US gov in one semester and AP comparative gov in the other).
e1g 8y ago
Presumably the backpresure of requests does not go away - when parents email for information, they do not stop just because they didn’t get a response. They will reach out through other methods. Do you know how that irreducible workload gets resolved, other than getting passed to colleagues who do put in extra effort/hours?

apron1 8y ago

What did anyone expect when everyone whole-heartedly supported more mandatory testing and measurement intiatives to help failing schools, almost about a decade back? If you start emphasizing test scores, that's all that will be optimized.

sopooneo 8y ago
I think you have a point. But in my experience with two polar opposite schools in Massachusetts, the ones that have a lot of "helicopter parents" don't have any issue with passing rates on the mandatory state tests. They're at over 98% passing. The tests the parents in such wealthy schools get upset about are the teacher assigned ones. But again, I only have deep knowledge of two schools, so am happy to be corrected if I'm on off this.
- apron1 8y ago
  I think more testing initiatives, whether to help failing schools or in top schools are misinformed at best and cancer at worst. They eventually would converge to east asia style meaningless competitive exams which are utterly destructive to any actual learning.

joe_the_user 8y ago

She told me of an email she received that said "X is trying to get into Princeton - an A- isn't going to get her in. What extra credit can she do to make this an A?" That's a horrible thing to say ... except I could even say from bitter experience that Princeton vs whatever-public-college is indeed a jump in *perceived( quality of education (there has been discussion of 150K vs 80K programming here and while they shouldn't revolve around Princeton or not, often they do. Appearances matter, sadly). And that's the thing right, when everyone is pushing to get to those small number of nice jobs, nice houses for rent or buy, nice etc., sure the nastiness is terrible but it's part of the fabric of it all. Hate the fabric, not the player, so to speak.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
erikpukinskis 8y ago
Princeton doesn’t provide any better instruction than a good state school. What it provides is a circle of friends for your son or daughter that come from a different socioeconomic class. Which will allow your kids to operate smoothly in that class when they get out of college.
- Aeolun 8y ago
  And feel like the pauper their entire college period?
  - erikpukinskis 8y ago
    Maybe. But still leave a pauper who understands how princes think.

bjourne 8y ago

That complaint doesn't make any sense. I can understand teachers complaining about kids disturbing their lessons, are unruly and threaten them with violence and so on. I can not understand teachers complaining about kids being extra ambitious and doing what they can to get the highest grades! I'll get downvoted for this, but if your moms worst problem is overachievers and parents caring about their children's education, she needs to suck it up. :)

fromthestart 8y ago
There's a line between caring about your children and helicoptering and/or demanding special treatment for your child. If you care about your children, you teach them to work and study, or at least approach the teacher on their own for things like extra credit. The teacher probably has 20+ students. How much extra time per student do you expect him or her to suck up so that everyone's special child can make it into Princeton? Plus, isn't the point of grades a measure of ability? If we can just erase any bad grade at a parent's discretion, what's the point in having grades at all? The whole system in my opinion is rotting. We seem to be increasingly reluctant in the U.S. to measure merit - but in this case, if nobody loses, then nobody wins. Sometimes that's life. Princeton only has prestige because it is selective, and that selectiveness depends on some kind of measure of entrant ability.
lachm 8y ago
Caring about education and caring about grades can be very very distinct.
- threatofrain 8y ago
  As distinct as a chicken is from an egg, since grades lead to tracking.
jogjayr 8y ago
Asking the teacher to set and grade extra credit work because a student didn't get the grade they wanted isn't fair to the teacher. I don't think the teacher is the one that needs to "suck it up" here ;-). The student could just try not going to Princeton - most of the world hasn't studied there and done fine.

agumonkey 8y ago

This lawsuit first life has spread everywhere. I've read it for surgeons, now teachers .. I don't understand how we slid into this..

credit_guy 8y ago

I have a view from both sides of this issue. I have school-age kids and my wife is a math professor (though college level, not pre-college). As a parent, I'm aware how important in life it is to have a good college on your resume. And how much more important it will be 20 years from now. I have the fortune to be able to show a STEM degree from a well respected (at leas in HN world) institution; this gave me a huge boost in my career. The odds to be admitted at such a university nowadays, if you are educated in the US, are lower and lower each day. Every single day, the US gets a little bit behind in the education race. That's why lots of upper-middle class parents are totally obsessed with their kids academic performance. Tiger-parenting and all. Now from the other side, my wife is a model of efficiency. She receives lots of emails from students disappointed with their grades (even today she got some; we are in post-exam period). She's very calm about it. She knows she did her job well, so she simply doesn't care about whiners. She never had to deal with an escalation though (i.e. lawsuit, arbitration, etc). I guess my point is that teachers have to simply get more thick-skinned. Just do your job, and let the whiners whine all they want. They are scared stiff themselves after all.

tranced 8y ago
A lot of people teach for different reasons in different environments. I'm not sure if it's just about the whiners but also when the whiners permeate the entire institution you're working in. The "lazy" teacher trope is a thing because the floor for teaching is so low and the ceiling can be so high while pay stays the same. I guess I'm privileged enough(or type A enough) to want more. Sometimes I wish I could just do my job. That way, I'd be happy with being a bus driver or a cop or something(they both have really good pensions).

ghufran_syed 8y ago

I had a math professor at Berkeley who used to be a high school math teacher, but started doing an MS just so he could teach at community college and not have to deal with parents. Worked out well for him, he ended up doing a PhD and on the faculty at Berkeley

trevyn 8y ago

Seems reasonable; grades are only partially a function of raw potential — effort plays a huge role as well. If a student is good enough to get an A-, I see no reason why demonstrating a certain amount of additional effort (extra credit) couldn’t get her to an A.

Wowfunhappy 8y ago
The student demonstrated an adequate amount of effort to achieve an A-. Any "additional" effort should have been expended at that time. Alternately, the student can put that effort towards future assignments. If the teacher wants to give out opportunities for extra credit (maybe because they feel the class is particularly challenging in general), they can do so. But students and parents are not entitled to extra credit, particularly those who already received a very respectable grade. (I realize that for certain colleges, an A- isn't enough, but inflating everyone's grade doesn't help the situation.)
quickben 8y ago
Whats the point of grading if there are repeats only for some?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

JumpCrisscross 8y ago

> X is trying to get into Princeton - an A- isn't going to get her in. What extra credit can she do to make this an A? That parent is an ass. Having grown up in a family where my parents deferred to teachers over me, even when the former was wrong to the point of harassment, however, it’s an understandable instinct. Administrators don’t protect children. Boards don’t protect children. That only leaves parents, unchecked. If students had proper means through which to pursue grievances against teachers, I’d hope these parental impulses would recede.

kokokokoko 8y ago

If anyone has ever lived by the mantra "The worst that can happen is that they will say no.", this is what happens to a culture as a whole as more and more people behave that way.

huntertwo 8y ago
Especially when people are conditioned to be afraid of saying no. A lot of issues can be resolved with a “no” response.
jawns 8y ago
I don't think there's anything wrong with the mantra. But the "this" you refer to doesn't really illustrate a problem with it. Here's how these exchanges SHOULD go ... Kid: Could I do extra credit to bring my grade up? Teacher: No, I'm sorry, the grade won't change. Kid: Okay. (thinks to himself, "Well, it was worth a shot") The unhealthy thing is not the venturing to ask. It's not accepting a reasonable answer when it is given: Kid: Could I do extra credit to bring my grade up? Teacher: No, I'm sorry, the grade won't change. Kid: How dare you. You'll be hearing from my parents. (or, more likely) Parent: Could my kid do extra credit to bring his grade up? Teacher: No, I'm sorry, the grade won't change. Parent: How dare you. I'm going over your head.

MarkMc 8y ago

Wait - so teachers in Massachusetts are not protected from lawsuits by their union or the schools? That's messed up

caseysoftware 8y ago
Serious question.. if the union isn't defending the teachers from bs lawsuits for legitimately doing their jobs, what is it doing?
- gbear605 8y ago
  Negotiating pay and defending teachers from the administration
- mythrwy 8y ago
  Maybe it's too busy defending teachers from not doing their jobs and doesn't have time to defend teachers doing their jobs?

hkmurakami 8y ago

As an alum who has interviewed many applicants to the school, an A- va A isn’t going to be the difference in an admissions decision. I’m just saying this so your mother may have more peace of mind regarding that email.

8bitsrule 8y ago

"What extra credit can she do to make this an A?" "She can't, because that's the grade she earned in the time alloted. The moving finger, having writ, has moved on. "However, I'm confident that, with Janie's capabilities, a little more effort from her and help from you, she can easily demonstrate a higher level of mastery and the consequent benefits from longer-term retention. "Princeton will NOT be a picnic, and developing excellent habits at this time will pay back many-fold. This A- is a vote of confidence that there is room and talent for improvement."

fjsolwmv 8y ago
Time alloted? Why does earning calculus have a 4 month expiration date? Why are we blaming the victims for the oppressive irrational grading system?
paulcole 8y ago
It doesn’t stop at high school. No rich parent is paying $50k a year so their kid can get a C.
- thatfrenchguy 8y ago
  Where do you think those Ivy League educated can’t-do-anything people you interview everyday come from ?
- Aeolun 8y ago
  50k for the opportunity to score an A. Not for the guarantee. That would make the A utterly valueless.
  - paulcole 8y ago
    An honors degree from Harvard (or another Ivy) is still rare (with respect to the general public) and has value even if everyone who graduates gets one.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]

lackbeard 8y ago

> The teachers union in Massachusetts made all the teachers sign liability waivers and arbitration waivers if a lawsuit happens. What does this mean exactly?

erikpukinskis 8y ago

I’d just pick a charity, tell them they can make a donation. Each $1000 they donate gets them a third of a level. A- to A just costs a grand. There’s no corruption on my part because I don’t keep the money.

sqldba 8y ago

I’m surprised that extra credit even exists. My high school and university had no such thing.

denimnerd42 8y ago
it usually doesn't. doesn't stop people from begging for it.
freehunter 8y ago
I was a slow runner in high school, and in gym class a friend of mine had a habit of lapping me not only to finish the class but then looping around to keep me encouraged to finish my own lap. He did not care about his own grade, but I asked about extra credit for him because he wasn't just running his own mile, but more like a mile and a half to encourage me. The teacher refused my request to give him extra credit, saying my physical fitness was not his responsibility so he deserved no credit for my sake. Not saying that was right or wrong, just backing up your statement of "my high school and university had no such thing" as extra credit. Sometimes doing exactly what's required is the most you're going to get credit for.

crankylinuxuser 8y ago

Well then, perhaps its about time to pass someone on basis of competency rather than attaching some arbitrary grade at some point in time, that has poor correlation to future skills. Allowing someone to continue trying and learning seems much better method rather than "whoops you had test anxiety or had insomnia and flunked your singular test". And if this is what's needed and is being forced on US's teachers, so be it.

graycat 8y ago

Calculus? Freshman college calculus, never took it. Just read a book and started the class on sophomore calculus. Teaching calculus? Been there; done that, as a math grad student. Easy to teach -- off the back of my hand. Zero time for preparation. Now with D. Knuth's TeX, it would be easy to pass out very nicely polished class notes, examples, exercises, applications, etc. Here's an application that might interest the students. At one time it literally saved FedEx from going out of business. The BoD wanted some revenue projections for the full, planned fleet and business. So, we knew what the revenue was then and what the revenue should be for the full planned fleet. So, the projections were essentially an interpolation. So, there would be growth, and what would drive that growth? Okay, assume the rate of growth is proportional to (1) the number of current customers talking about FedEx and (2) the number of the rest of the target customers hearing the talking. So, for time t, with t = 0 being the present, let y(t) be the revenue per day at time t. So, we know y(0), the current revenue. Let b be the revenue per day of the full, planned fleet and business. Then at time t, the number of customers talking is proportional to y(t) and the number of the rest of the customers listening is proportional to (b - y(t)). So, for some constant of proportionality k, we have that the growth rate in revenue per day is d/dt y(t) = y'(t) = k y(t) (b - y(t)) where we have y(0) and b. So, this is an initial value problem for a first order, linear, ordinary differential equation, but just freshman calculus is plenty to solve it in closed form. Sure, the solution has some exponentials. I'll post the solution later on request! So, one day Senior VP Planning Mike Basch and I picked a value of k that yielded a reasonable graph, and I drew the graph. That was Friday. The BoD meeting was the morning, Saturday, with Mike traveling. At noon I got a call from Senior VP Roger Frock asking if I knew about the revenue projections and could I come to the BoD meeting? I did and did. When I got there, the graph was on a table, and our two representatives of BoD member General Dynamics were standing in the hall with their bags packed. No one was happy. Roger pointed to a few places on the graph, and I used my HP calculator to reproduce the points. Everyone got happy. Later I learned that the graph had been presented to the BoD early in the meeting; the General Dynamics guys asked how the graph was calculated; all the FedEx people at the meeting tried to learn how; near noon the Dynamics guys gave up on FedEx, got plane tickets back to Texas, went to their rented rooms and packed, and as a last resort returned to the BoD meeting and were standing in the hall when I arrived. With my results, they unpacked and stayed. Had they left, FedEx would have ended. So, just a little calculus saved FedEx, and since I was the only one around who knew still knew calculus I was the only one who understood the solution. The projections were a smooth curve that rose slowly, rose more quickly, had an inflection point, rose less quickly, and became asymptotic from below at b. So, the curve was a lazy S. I suspect that the curve is the famous logistic curve also important in, say, the elements in neural networks and has long been seen as a good, first cut description of the growth of new products, e.g., TV sets when they were new. With the way I derived the curve, it is an axiomatic approach to viral growth or word of mouth market growth. There is lots of nice stuff that can be done with calculus. For more with calculus, I would recommend famous texts by Apostol, Rudin, Royden, and Rudin again, through measure theory and then texts by Loeve, Breiman, Neveu, and Chung for the connections with probability. The third edition of Rudin's Priciples does very well with the modern Stokes theorem, exterior algebra of differential forms, and the inverse and implicit function theorems. The first half of Rudin's Real and Complex Analysis does well with measure theory and introductions to functional analysis. The Apostol text is Mathematical Analysis: A Modern Approach to Advanced Calculus -- it's NOT very "modern" but gives a lot of what need to know to read mathematical physics, especially Maxwell's equations. For stochastic processes, Doob, Karatsas and Shreve. For Princeton and its department of Operations Research and Financial Engineering, the more elementary parts of stochastic optimal control via, say, Nemhauser, Dreyfus and Law, Bertsekas and Shreve, Dynkin and Yushkevich, etc.

oh_sigh 8y ago

How does one get into a lawsuit over not assigning non-existent extra credit?

twtw 8y ago

This sounds a lot like my mom's situation. In the last decade, parents and admins have made her job terrible. The parents make similar demands regarding grades - if their kid does poorly on an exam, it doesn't even enter into their mind that they didn't study or are super lazy, it's automatically the teacher's fault for making the test too hard or teaching the material poorly. Same goes for kids failing a class because they never turn in assignments - the teacher is failing to sufficiently motivate their student. This would be manageable but for the fact that the administration always takes the side of the parents. If a kid cheats on a test, it's a "coping mechanism" or a "useful real world skill - there's no black and white" - this for a kid who literally broke into a filing cabinet to get the answer key. When kids fail tests, the administration or counsellors pressure the teachers to make easier versions of the test, extend the time limits, or give credit for test corrections. Several time teachers have resisted, because this totally undermines the information content of grades and takes a massive amount of extra teacher time (grading, writing, proctoring), and it's gone over poorly for the teacher. The end result of all this is that the most entitled children or those with the most "engaged" parents get As, even if they earn a C,D, or F on the baseline system, while students who earn Bs but don't squeak get As. I've been trying to convince her to just give the whole class As for years. It's a pretty awful experience - I'm surprised anyone still teaches and would have quit years ago.

Jach 8y ago
> I've been trying to convince her to just give the whole class As for years. That's probably what I would do, at least if this became a problem. I'd still maintain an unofficial parallel "rank" that more corresponds to what I think a grade should be, purely for mine and my students' own benefit in knowing about information gaps, but on their official transcripts it'd be very hard not to get an A just so I don't have to deal with parents/admins as much. (Having a reputation for 'easy A' can also help in keeping the classes full.)

bryanrasmussen 8y ago

I think asking about possible extra credit to up the grade, especially from a - to the not - version is pretty ok. No profanity was involved right.

gaius 8y ago

she told me that parents have ruined the job she loves One of our guests for Christmas was telling us stories about this, she teaches art, and says it’s normal for her to check her work email on Monday morning and find that parents have sent a series of increasingly angry emails over the weekend demanding an instant response. This is in the UK.

burmer 8y ago

Which union was this? I was trying to explain this to my wife, who is a teacher, and she was shellshocked, so I wanted to check on the details.