21 ms·

New Office Hours Aim for Well Rested, More Productive Workers

478 points by acjohnson55 8y ago

tokyodude 8y ago
> Put it this way: If you rely on an alarm clock to wake up, you’re out of sync with your own biology. I get told, especially by lots of armchair wannabe doctors here on HN that I need 8 hours of sleep but if I don't set my alarm (I actually rarely set my alarm) I often wake up in naturally in 6 hours regardless of when I go to sleep. Maybe 30% of the time I can go back to sleep, the other 70% I'm not tired. Otherwise in relation to the topic in general I'm not 100% I want my most awake time to go to the company I work for. Is that wrong?
- QML 8y ago
  No, it’s just that 8 hours is the recommended amount for the average person. Your “chronotype” may differ.
  - jghn 8y ago
    The key here is that many folks who claim they're the atypical ones are not. In the GPs case, perhaps they are.
- jSully24 8y ago
  We are all so different about what we need for rest. Some need 9h, some need 6h. We all need to experiment. And many/most of us will not, or can not take the time to experiment. I feel I can’t. So much to do...
- nicoburns 8y ago
  People definitely vary quite significantly in the amount of sleep they need. I have some friends who can happily get by with 6 hours of sleep on a permanent basis. Whereas I need at least 8, and would happily take 10 or 12 if the time was available.
  - ehnto 8y ago
    I thought I could get by on 6, but then I started sleeping naturally and I was sleeping much longer and now I feel like I operate better. I had been sleeping short hours my whole life so it was just the norm. It wasn't energy or thought capacity either, I have always been fine with that even on 6 hours. But longer term thinking, sense of continuity and ability to remember, to think more broadly about time and my place in it were all drastically improved. Things I used to do a lot I do far less now and don't feel a need to, stimuli like video games and reddit are not nearly as appealing when I sleep longer. I feel no different moment to moment but there are what feel like auxilliary mental capacities I didn't realise I was missing. Resistance to stimuli, temporal thinking and memory being the key ones.
- trophycase 8y ago
  Counter anecdote. I feel I need less sleep if I wake and sleep with the sun. If I stay up very late, I feel I need more sleep to feel rested
  - tokyodude 8y ago
    Can you clarify what you mean "wake and sleep with the sun". Right now where I live the sun comes up just before 7am and sets at 4:30pm. Are you saying you sleep ~14 hours a night?
- codyhazelwood 8y ago
  I think it definitely varies for each person. If I let myself sleep until I wake up 'naturally' - it's usually 9-10 hours. I'd love to be able to get somewhere in the 6-8 hour range. I drink a copious amount of caffeine to keep going during the day, too. (5+ cups of coffee and sometimes an energy drink, too)
  - watwut 8y ago
    That may mean sleep deprivation. If you have sleep deprivation, you will sleep longer for some days. Afaik, 6 hours a day is not enough for optimal performance for most people. It is minimum where people can function with somewhat, but also one where your cognitive capabilities are affected measurably.
- muse900 8y ago
  > Otherwise in relation to the topic in general I'm not 100% I want my most awake time to go to the company I work for. Is that wrong? Nope, I completely agree with that also. I personally don't want to spend my most awake time for the company I work either. Also just to comment on something that has been said times and times again, the 8 hour working schedule was introduced more than 150 years ago and started getting implemented 100 years ago. Its time for humanity to move on and find different systems that will allow us to work less and enjoy more of what life has to offer. We did have the computational revolution during the 90's early 2000 and now we've reached a point where a lot of jobs have been automated and a lot more to come. Think of everything out there and how much faster its been done with the use of computers and the internet. So our productivity must have went up by tremendous amounts although the working hours didn't go down at all, they remained exactly the same. My personal belief is we can easily bring it down to 6 hours a day and slowly slowly bring it down to 4 working days per week. Of course such thing must happen massively around the globe, given how interlinked countries are nowadays.
  - deleted 8y ago
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- shados 8y ago
  Absolutely not a doctor (or even really know what I'm talking about), but I've been hunting down a sleep disorder I've been dealing with for a decade+, and there's at least a couple of things to consider (someone please correct me if I got anything wrong) My understanding is that during the day (evening?), your melatonin level increases. While you sleep, it goes down. If you wake up for any reason just a few hours before your optimal sleepy time, it might be a lot harder to get back to sleep. A lot of stuff might cause you to wake up early. Very common ones, especially in the US: GERD and sleep apnea. You end up waking up, you're not tired, but you didn't get the sleep you needed. The last part I was told only recently and I dunno how accurate it is, but supposedly you get most of your important REM sleep in the last few hours of sleep, so there's a pretty big difference between 6 and 8 hours, even though you might wake up (for reasons such as the ones above) but not be functioning at your fullest. And while you might be functioning on par with your colleagues...maybe you'd just be a total badass if you sleep better/more... Take all of this with a huge grain of salt :)
- stephen_g 8y ago
  Wow! If I don’t set an alarm, I’ll easily sleep for 10 hours...
- uncletaco 8y ago
  When I was in ROTC my cadet commander said "you only really need 6 hours of sleep" and like the good cadet that I was I've only slept a maximum of six hours ever since. After a couple years of using an alarm clock to do that I've been able to get up naturally after six hours for like the last 7-8 years. Not sure if its healthy but I do know I feel worse when I sleep longer.
burlesona 8y ago
That was an interesting read. I was glad to hear the article point out that many people don’t know their chronotype. My schedule has changed a lot over the years and I’ve alternated between having to be up early and up late, with both being difficult to adjust to initially. The suggested diagnostic techinique (spend two weeks on vacation with no alarm clock) sounds like a nice idea :)
vlunkr 8y ago
It would be lots easier to align work with our natural sleep cycles if the standard work week was less than 40 hours. People don’t really want to wake up at the crack of dawn, but you’ve got to get those hours in!
- officemonkey 8y ago
  Many people who have jobs in urban areas have to deal with long commutes on top of a standard work week. I'm one of those rare people who will happily go to bed at 9 pm every night. My favorite job was when I teleworked from 6 AM - Noon. 30 hours a week, with no commute, and my choice of hours? It was heaven.
  - shados 8y ago
    in addition to that, in urban areas you have to deal with quiet hours usually being 11pm to 7am, and they're rarely respected. Hard to sleep in when the beeping backing trucks start at 6am and the jack hammers start at 6:30, and you can't do anything about the neighbors' subwoofer blasting at 11:30 so you can't go to bed early either.
    - officemonkey 8y ago
      You may find happiness living in a less dense environment. I live in a residential neighborhood among adults who seldom subwoof at any time, much less at midnight.
      - shados 8y ago
        I was raised in the residential neighborhood of a suburb...unless you're in a village where your neighbor is 300 feet away, if it's not the subwoofer, it's the kids screaming around the pool. If it's not that, it's a new developer (housing crisis and call for density and all that) building a mid-rise after the "NIMBYs" "lost". Dense or not, short of living with the wolves, it's basically just dumb luck/bad luck if you're in a quiet environment or not, because the laws are not on your side and it just takes a single asshole to ruin it for everyone. I spent years looking for the "ideal" spot, and an absolutely ridiculous amount of money to obtain it, and 6 months later zoning rules changed and screwed everything up. I've just learnt to live with earplugs, but not everyone can. More importantly, to house everyone efficiently, we need high density areas. If we must put a lot of people so close to each other, AND we agree that sleep is critical to one's health, we should treat it the same way as we deal with drinking water rules, fire safety, health code, etc. The laws should reflect and be enforced to match how important it is. Step 1: While the existing laws and ordinance suck, they're better than nothing. Let just starts by enforcing them. No one's fundamental rights are harmed if you get in trouble for driving an 18 wheeler backward in a residential zone at 4 in the morning.
scarejunba 8y ago
I was able to adjust my sleep schedule with just 300 μg of melatonin to trigger sleep. Whereas previously I'd sleep at 0100 now I sleep at 2200. Very useful.
- sidcool 8y ago
  Is it addictive? Are there any side effects?
  - dundercoder 8y ago
    Using it too frequently can cause you to rely on it, but other than that, it’s about the safest sleep aid around.
    - a13n 8y ago
      Source? Don't believe that's true.
  - kccqzy 8y ago
    No it's not. And there's very little side effect if you buy from reputable brands. About the only issue I have is that it's difficult to find melatonin in the appropriate dose (0.3mg); it's far more common to find 3mg or even 10mg.
    - r00fus 8y ago
      I recommend liquid extract - I find it on Amazon for like $15 for about 180mg = 6000 doses at 300 mcg. Easier that cutting pills or caplets.
  - crisper99 8y ago
    While it didnt seem to be addictive to me I only used it for a week and then the vividness of some of the dreams bad and good caused me to stop. It never helped get me to sleep earlier. I didnt think that drastic of a change from normal was worth my mental safety.
randomacct3847 8y ago
I like waking up early because more than at any other time of the day you have a period of quiet that you can have for yourself. I lived in nyc for a short period of time and there’s a joy in stepping out between 5:30-7 and feeling how quiet the city can be.
- orev 8y ago
  It’s the same at night if you’re a night owl, with the added benefit of knowing you don’t have a bunch of other things you also need to get done that day (because you already did them).
  - sotojuan 8y ago
    In my experience NYC is way more quiet at 6am than 1am, even residential neighborhoods. It’s also not super dark out (outside of winter).
  - randomacct3847 8y ago
    Big cities aren’t quiet at night
paulcole 8y ago
I don’t want to be at work when I’m most productive! I want to be on my own time doing the things I actually want to do.
013a 8y ago
I'd love to see more information about the assertion that there are innate qualities in people which make them Larks versus Owls. I believe I am a night owl. On an average day, I don't get tired until 2am, and without an alarm clock I could sleep until 10am; by any definition this makes me a night owl. But, I question how much of this behavior is environmental versus innate. I drink a lot of coffee (never after 6pm). I work on a computer all day (blue light). My hobbies generally come alive at night (video gaming, spending time with friends, concerts). I have a naturally addictive and obsessive personality combined with low self-control (when I get started on something, like a new work problem or video game, I can't put it down). Is there research in the area of identifying actual biological reasoning behind why someone would be an owl versus a lark (genetics, etc)? Or do all of these studies just rely on behavioral self-reporting, which even the article says, is completely vulnerable to the very real problem that people really only know their behavior in the face of all of their vices, and that behavior might be different if the vices weren't there. The reason I believe that's important is because it should be a factor in our response to this. Yes, people need sleep, and they need good sleep. But if a big reason why you get tired at 2am and thus wake up at 10am is because you're watching Netflix in bed until the minute you shut your eyes, we can't ask society to accept that starting work at 11am is fine.
- pseudalopex 8y ago
  There are many studies.[1] Large-scale genetic studies have found markers associated with self-reported "morningness".[2][3] At least some of these markers are near genes known to affect circadian rhythms. Observational studies control factors like caffeine intake and light exposure. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronotype https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronotype [2] https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10448 https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10448 [3] https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006125 https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/jo...
- bluntfang 8y ago
  >I drink a lot of coffee (never after 6pm). This is insane to me. I've drank a lot of coffee before (6+ cups per day), but if I ever drink caffeine past 2PM I don't sleep until after 2AM. Have you experimented with your caffeine intake? I highly suggest it. Once I found the correct dose (1-2 cups before 10am, no more til the next day) I've found myself to feel much, much better.
lgleason 8y ago
Finally! I am most productive at night, but not all places want to have you working during that time, which is a lose-lose.
dmarlow 8y ago
What about those with cycles that aren't 24 hours?
carl-adam 8y ago
I don't believe that, just another scientist scam to get money from the government. Do some real reachers for god sake!
mrhappyunhappy 8y ago
There is an excellent episode on Joe Rogan show about sleep. Don’t have a link handy but highly recommend it.
- tomcam 8y ago
  Is it this one? https://podcastnotes.org/2018/04/29/why-we-sleep/ https://podcastnotes.org/2018/04/29/why-we-sleep/
jillesvangurp 8y ago
Some simple life hacks that work for me (depending external constraints). 1) I don't set an alarm clock unless I plan to get up really early to catch a plane or something like that. Normal work days, I wake up when it is light; generally around 8 am. Later in the winter and earlier in the summer. I don't fight it. That's 7-8 hours after going to bed. I need those; this is normal from what I understand. Besides, I enjoy sleeping so why cut on quality time? 2) I avoid caffeine after lunch. It causes me to sleep later and generally not get enough rest. Coffee is a short term fix when I'm tired but it sets me up for poor sleep. It works better for me when I consume less of it. 3) I eat light lunches to avoid my digestive system shutting down my brain in the afternoon. 4) I stop working when I'm tired in the early evening. The better I sleep, the later this is. Decision making goes out of the window when I'm tired and I know trying to solve complex stuff when tired is a waste of time and I can do the same job more efficiently in the morning. However, when I'm in the zone, I often keep on pushing on. This seems to happen for me a lot between 6pm and 9pm but only when I'm not distracted and well rested in the morning.
- magicalhippo 8y ago
  Re point 1, since I'm living a bit up north it's not bright enough outside in the morning, and my job requires me to be there by 9. So I got one of those Philips wake-up lamps, which gently fades up to a rather bright light. That helps a lot with feeling well rested when I wake up during the winter. A key point though is to allocate enough time for sleep. My morning light won't save me if I've only had 5 hours of sleep. Re point 3, I found the same incidentally when I tried (and managed) to lose weight. In order to cut down on calories I opted to simply skip lunch, and rather have a late breakfast. So I'd bring breakfast (two rather manly slices of >90% whole-grain bread) and eat it at around 10. Then I'd have dinner when I got home at around 5-6 pm. This made me have a much more even energy level throughout the work day, making me significantly more productive.
iambateman 8y ago
For what it’s worth, I’m pretty sure my body clock is, like many others, cycles every 24.75 hours. In other words, it kind of doesn’t matter, I’m always going to be fighting it. It’s been that way for my entire life: coffee or tea, winter or summer, college or home, single or married. Pretty much regardless, I’m going to feel tired at 11p today and ~11:45p tomorrow and 12:30a the following day before I do a dramatic reset and start again.
- samcheng 8y ago
  Sounds like you should move to Mars! The Mars day is roughly 40 minutes longer than Earth's.
  - iambateman 8y ago
    See you there! I hear it’s nice this time of year!
  - isostatic 8y ago
    Or more realistically get a job working on a Martian probe
- cwp 8y ago
  I'm the same way, and there's only one thing that works for me: exposure to sunlight in the morning.
- adjkant 8y ago
  When I was a teen, my clock was 27 hours. I did the vacation and natural wakeups and rotated around the clock in 7 days. It's decreased a bit but I think it's still around 25-26 hours.
IronWolve 8y ago
I had a co-worker who only needed 4 hours of sleep, a DBA manager. He told me had multiple sleep studies by the washington state college, he just won the genetic lotto, and just had more time to get things done. I've been into sleep hacking for the last 3 months, and thinking on and off about sleep cycles for myself for the last decade. Picked up a sleep tracker and newer fitbit that can track my sleep and verify each others recording. I tend to want 8 to 9 hours, but with an officer job, its been 5x 6 hours and 2x 12 hours on the weekend. This just isn't maintainable anymore for me as I'm getting older and limiting my caffeine, etc. I've switched to a 10pm to 6am with possible modifications. It makes the days 2 hours shorter, but I get time back on the weekend as I'm not re-charging up from the week, and I wake up rested every day. I've done segmented sleep when I was working a service job in my 20s while living in dorm. Crash at 10pm, Get up at 4am, work an hour, go back to sleep at 5am, and get back up at 7am. That worked great, and want to try to replicate that again. Love waking hours in the twilight mornings when its quite and refreshed. Plus, you get the benefit of another deep sleep cycle after being awake and active, and going to sleep again. (As my sleep trackers are reporting to me). And thats not even talking about supplements and exercise to effect sleep. But I recommend magnesium for everyone.
- matwood 8y ago
  > I've switched to a 10pm to 6am with possible modifications. It makes the days 2 hours shorter, but I get time back on the weekend as I'm not re-charging up from the week, and I wake up rested every day. This is basically the 'early' schedule I have settled on. I get up between 5-6am, workout immediately, and start the day.
pishpash 8y ago
It's not enough to have flexible policy at one or even many workplaces. The world is run by Larks and as long as that's the case, meetings will "need" to be scheduled at certain times, people will "need" to be at home at certain times, errands will "need" to be run at certain hours because places close, children will "need" to be picked up, social events will happen at certain times. Owls will always be second class citizens.
bitrrrate 8y ago
Interesting that corporate America typically likes to have cookie cutter schedules that often intrude into our mornings. However, Jeff Bezos, arguably one of the more successful business people in the world doesn’t schedule early morning meetings, sleeps 8 hours a night and wakes up naturally without an alarm clock. https://www.businessinsider.com/jeff-bezos-daily-routine-2017-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/jeff-bezos-daily-routine-201...
- mschuster91 8y ago
  Well, it certainly can be argued that you are a more successful business person if you're not getting ripped off by your negotiation counterparts as you fight your wish to sleep. There's a reason I don't do the "fly to X in the morning, have meeting, fly back" racket. I always have either a night train or a sleepover in a hotel, when I have to travel for workshops or hands-on work - making me get up at 4 o'clock in the morning means my employer loses at minimum half a day of productivity or more plus either night trains or hotel are cheaper than the productivity loss.
usaphp 8y ago
They should start with kids then. I remember how painful was to wake up in the morning to go to school at a very early age. Worst memories of my childhood.
- everdev 8y ago
  School and work hours is a very similar problem to the metric system. Even though there's a more efficient system, the switching cost is significant in that you're out of sync with all those that don't make the switch, or don't make it at the same time as you. Once the majority or a popular minority start using later work/school hours or the metric system, then there will be a catalyst for change. But for those early adopters there is a significant burden of extra communication that needs to take place.
  - marcoperaza 8y ago
    Or perhaps it’s the opposite. It makes more sense for planners and idealists that everyone would sleep the same amount and wake up and work at the same time (just like they would like us all to use units divisible by 10), but reality is organic and messy and it turns out that the old traditions (segmented sleep, sleeping to the day/night cycle) had it right all along.
  - ndnxhs 8y ago
    I almost had a car crash while driving to high school half asleep. Now I'm older and I get up at the same time but I don't feel tried at all.
    - stephen_g 8y ago
      Glad it didn’t turn out badly, but from a sleep cycle perspective it’s normal. Kids usually have fairly early sleep cycles, and as they age it gradually gets later, peaking around late adolescence where it can be three or so hours later than an adult. After that, it shifts back to normal over the next decade or so. Aparantly this has been observed not just with humans but in various animal species as well. But there are various disorders where people either have unusually late or early sleep cycles that can be up to several hours different from normal.
nixarian 8y ago
Anyone who uses an alarm clock to wake up has to have wondered if they were a huge mistake that was damaging their health. They're truly awful machines, maybe the most damaging machines we've ever invented.
starpilot 8y ago
> Put it this way: If you rely on an alarm clock to wake up, you’re out of sync with your own biology. You're out of sync if you're not feeling the air around you warm up with the sun, or watching the sky above you change from black to the glimmer of dawn, or hearing the birds start to chirp with the sunrise. I've experienced all of these with hundreds of nights backpacking in the wilderness, and indeed it has been the best sleep of my life. If you've any semblance of a modern, industrial lifestyle though then you're so screwed up by the rest of your life that an alarm clock is the least of your artifical interruptions.
- ekianjo 8y ago
  > industrial lifestyle though then you're so screwed up by the rest of your life that an alarm clock is the least of your artifical interruptions. Indeed. Just the use of artificial light is enough to mess up with your biorhythm. It would be fair to say that "humans have been out of sync with their own biology" for several decades if not a century. And it's only getting more so.
- GoToRO 8y ago
  I agree with what you said, except with "the least". I quit setting an alarm and it already made a big difference. Maybe because I already see the Sun when I wake up and kind of hear the birds. Anyway, there is and AND between all those conditions, more than an OR.
- black-tea 8y ago
  Unfortunately, where I live that means I would get 16 hours of sleep in the winter and 6 hours in the summer.
- nottorp 8y ago
  Are you sure that the physical effort and the cleaner wilderness air weren't the actual factors that made you sleep better than in the city?
- rmah 8y ago
  I wholeheartedly agree. When we go camping, one of my rules is no clocks. I find that, within a few days, we wake up just before dawn without consciously doing anything. It seems natural, everyone just falls into it. And for me at least, the sleeps while camping are some of the best I've ever experienced.
matthewhall 8y ago
I recently started using an app called Sleep Cycle to help my body's response to the alarm. It measures how deep your sleep is and wakes you when your sleep is shallow (within the time range). I find myself waking up thirty-plus minutes earlier and feeling much better and awake, all day. My next endeavor will be to build a Circadian Rythm light clock that changes the ambient light in the room to naturally wake me up.
pushpankar 8y ago
I was a night owl. I would sleep around 2-3AM. Then I started working out and Stopped drinking coffee. These days, I feel tired by 11 and wake up around 7AM.
rconti 8y ago
I am just finishing reading the fantastic book Why We Sleep [1], and as in so many well-meaning studies and articles, I can't help but feel like this effort is misguided. Just like an addict cannot accept help until they want it, I don't see how "adjusting" work schedules for those who don't even understand their own biology can possibly be helpful. I've ALWAYS considered myself a night owl. I'm still not sure I'm not. But I've spent the past year rising earlier than I'm used to, and the past 7 months rising even earlier than that due to an enforced carpool with my wife. For the first time in my working life, I HAVE to be awake at a certain time (incidentally, far earlier than I'm used to). Instead of snoozing for an hour, I bolt from bed far earlier than I want to. I go to sleep marginally earlier. But my routine is regular I'm happier. I feel better. I feel healthier. I started reading the book and am acutely interested in tuning my sleep times to make this work even better. Maybe I've never been a night owl. Maybe I've just had horrible sleep habits. Or maybe I AM a night owl, and I'd be even better off than I can possibly imagine, if I take all of these habits and processes and move them later in the day. But I just feel like you can't possibly know if you're a morning bird or a night owl until you're already, consistently, religiously, getting enough sleep every night, on a consistent sleep/wake schedule. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-Dreams/dp/1501144316 https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-Dreams/dp/1501...
- stephen_g 8y ago
  If you’re not experiencing any symptoms of sleep deprivation, then you’ve probably just got a normal circadian rhythm. You might be a ‘night owl by preference’ and had some bad habits, but there are plenty of people who are night owls by necessity because of their circadian rhythm.
- ivanhoe 8y ago
  > For the first time in my working life, I HAVE to be awake at a certain time This one on its own is (for me at least) far more important than the exact time when you go to bed/ wake up. Having the steady rhythm of life gives you the feeling of control and reduces anxieties, and you'll almost certainly feel better after some time. I used to work nightshifts in the data-center for a while and I would sleep during the day and it worked for me just fine. On the other hand while in the army I was getting up really early (4.30am every morning) every day, and again it was working great for me (after some adjustment period of course). So two completely opposite schedules, but both very strict and regular over the 6+ months period, and both made me feel very energetic and healthy. However, as a student I also briefly had a job with the weirdest floating schedule where you'd one day work a morning shift, then in the afternoon next day, then a nightshift, and then you'd have a free day afterwards. That one was a disaster, I just couldn't get used to that schedule. I gained 20 kg in 6 months and felt sleepy and tired all the time. Routine is a good thing.
pts_ 8y ago
>And at some pharmaceutical, software and financial companies, managers expect employees to come to the office for only a few hours in the middle of the day — or to work off site entirely. I am curious how pharma jobs can be carried out offsite(from home?).
katsura 8y ago
I know people who have to work 3 days in the morning, 1 day rest, 3 days in the afternoon, 1 day rest, and 3 days at night. I understand that there are places where they have to keep the workers in rotation, but why don't they change this monthly, for example? I don't think that in 3 days your internal clock can adjust.
LoSboccacc 8y ago
As a night owl I like that day shift. I love having the most productive hours for myself
matfil 8y ago
One of the barriers to seeing more of this is the current focus on ”team-ism”. In the technical world, practices like pair programming and daily stand ups are big drivers of regular working hours in a field that was historically one of the better ones for individual flexibility.
Proven 8y ago
I set my own and always work longer and do more. There's no way in hell this fancy stuff could help me. And I've a problem with "more productive". Of course if I work only 10 minutes I'll be "more productive" per unit of time or cost, than when I work 11 hours. But I'll get nothing done within 10 minutes so guess what will happen... This idealism may work for some folks (ie to practice swimming 12 hours a day may be worse than 4 hours) and those in uncompetitive lines of work. Not for me, though.
lordnacho 8y ago
I manage a team of 20 fully remote devs, so I get to see exactly when everyone is working. When they're chatting, when they're pushing code. We don't force people to be working at any particular time, so I'm guessing when I see them is when they want to be working. You can tell some people are complete night owls. One guy checks in code at 3am and rarely talks to anyone until the evening. I guess he sleeps when the sun is out. Other people are a bit more ordinary, but still it seems the most productive hours are not quite as early as when most schools or businesses tend to be open. I'd say maybe 10am is the de facto "opening time". There's also a tendency to have a lull in chat in the early afternoon. People go off to lunch having some ideas about what to do, and then they come back and do it before dinner. Or they are in deep thinking mode and don't want to talk, and then check in the code. Having no meeting time and no commute seems to help everyone. It gives everyone an extra work day each week, and they can spend their time when they want to. It also makes managing easier, as I don't have to chase everyone at the exact same time.
- asia777 8y ago
  Are you guys hiring? :P
  - lordnacho 8y ago
    Right at this moment we're focusing on launch, don't have time to onboard anyone. If launch goes well probably.
    - sytse 8y ago
      You can find other fully remote companies at https://www.glassdoor.com/blog/100-percent-remote-companies/ https://www.glassdoor.com/blog/100-percent-remote-companies/ and we at GitLab are all remote as well.
- z3phyr 8y ago
  > One guy checks in code at 3am and rarely talks to anyone until the evening Does everyone live in the same time zone?
dbg31415 8y ago
Getting up early is my super power. I wake up at 5 AM every day without an alarm. I make my bed (1), I walk my dogs, I make breakfast, I hit the gym, I get a nice long shower, I have time to do things before all the distractions kick in. I have a short commute. Highly recommend getting up at 5 AM. (1) If You Want to Change the World, Start Off by Making Your Bed - William McRaven, US Navy Admiral - YouTube || https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sK3wJAxGfs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sK3wJAxGfs
deleted 8y ago
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Entalpi 8y ago
Not all hours are equal in terms of productivity. Realising this made me change so that I dont overwork.
jimijazz 8y ago
From reading a blog post a while back I got into believing that I have a 25-hour circadian rhythm. This means that if I wouldn't use an alarm to wake up, I would end up waking up and going to bed later and later as days go by. Is there such a thing? Does anyone have any similar experience/advise?
rauhl 8y ago
I realised after reading this that if indeed there’s a cognitive peak an hour or two after waking, then that’s a pretty good argument for remote working: it enables one to enjoy two peaks per day while working instead of just the one late-afternoon one, since one doesn’t waste one’s peak somewhere between breakfast and commuting. It does also make the old routine of reading the morning paper seem pretty smart, since presumably doing so during a cognitive peak increases reading comprehension & retention.
asadkn 8y ago
Is anyone aware of any studies done on whether and how soon the "circadian rhythm" adjusts and changes? Personally, I easily and fully adjust within a few weeks to any new sleep schedule. For 10-14 days, I definitely feel more fatigued and productivity decreases after a drastic schedule change, but things get to normal very soon. I currently sleep at 7am and wake up at 3pm. Just a few months back, I used to sleep at 9pm and wake up at 4am. Previous few years have seen 10am-6pm, 7am-3pm, 2am-10pm, 8pm-4am etc. As for personal preference, I prefer my 7am-3pm sleep schedule the most simply because nights are more peaceful with no distractions. tl;dr I have changed my schedules countless times over the years, and after an adjustment period of few weeks, there's little difference in terms of productivity or how I feel.
- samnwa 8y ago
  A cool trick to adjust your schedule in just 1 night is to stop eating 12-16 hours before you want to wake up. This is particular great for travel to adjust quickly to time zone changes.
Zelmor 8y ago
Been fully remote since mid 2016. I've never received positive comments on my work attitude before this position. - I am thin and tall, constantly feeling cold in air-conditioned offices. - The office lights hurt my eyes. - I prefer music playing instead of people talking, and I do not feel bad for taking an hour long break when I feel exhausted or frustrated. - I usually wake up around 8, so I get out the door after coffee&breakfast is done, and we get dressed with the wife. We don't leave the house before 9:30 on average. - I also think commuting longer than a 15 minute walk/bus ride is a waste of my time. - I am working from a laptop, so I think it should be completely acceptable to send a mail in the morning saying "I'll be working from under a warm blanket & my cat today" when there is no in-person meeting scheduled. In my current position I'm assigned projects that get done on time and feedback is positive. Work is done, all is well. Noone cares when you start the day, just show up for the calls, which are never scheduled before 9:30 on my request. We got a junior fired because she couldn't keep up with expectations. I think full-remote wasn't for her. She also had untreated schizophrenia, I bet that didn't help either. When you are a couple screws loose, it helps to have people around to keep you grounded. On winter days I almost exclusively work from cafes, so as to avoid winter depression.

478 points by acjohnson55 8y ago

> Put it this way: If you rely on an alarm clock to wake up, you’re out of sync with your own biology. I get told, especially by lots of armchair wannabe doctors here on HN that I need 8 hours of sleep but if I don't set my alarm (I actually rarely set my alarm) I often wake up in naturally in 6 hours regardless of when I go to sleep. Maybe 30% of the time I can go back to sleep, the other 70% I'm not tired. Otherwise in relation to the topic in general I'm not 100% I want my most awake time to go to the company I work for. Is that wrong?

QML 8y ago
No, it’s just that 8 hours is the recommended amount for the average person. Your “chronotype” may differ.
- jghn 8y ago
  The key here is that many folks who claim they're the atypical ones are not. In the GPs case, perhaps they are.
jSully24 8y ago
We are all so different about what we need for rest. Some need 9h, some need 6h. We all need to experiment. And many/most of us will not, or can not take the time to experiment. I feel I can’t. So much to do...
nicoburns 8y ago
People definitely vary quite significantly in the amount of sleep they need. I have some friends who can happily get by with 6 hours of sleep on a permanent basis. Whereas I need at least 8, and would happily take 10 or 12 if the time was available.
- ehnto 8y ago
  I thought I could get by on 6, but then I started sleeping naturally and I was sleeping much longer and now I feel like I operate better. I had been sleeping short hours my whole life so it was just the norm. It wasn't energy or thought capacity either, I have always been fine with that even on 6 hours. But longer term thinking, sense of continuity and ability to remember, to think more broadly about time and my place in it were all drastically improved. Things I used to do a lot I do far less now and don't feel a need to, stimuli like video games and reddit are not nearly as appealing when I sleep longer. I feel no different moment to moment but there are what feel like auxilliary mental capacities I didn't realise I was missing. Resistance to stimuli, temporal thinking and memory being the key ones.
trophycase 8y ago
Counter anecdote. I feel I need less sleep if I wake and sleep with the sun. If I stay up very late, I feel I need more sleep to feel rested
- tokyodude 8y ago
  Can you clarify what you mean "wake and sleep with the sun". Right now where I live the sun comes up just before 7am and sets at 4:30pm. Are you saying you sleep ~14 hours a night?
codyhazelwood 8y ago
I think it definitely varies for each person. If I let myself sleep until I wake up 'naturally' - it's usually 9-10 hours. I'd love to be able to get somewhere in the 6-8 hour range. I drink a copious amount of caffeine to keep going during the day, too. (5+ cups of coffee and sometimes an energy drink, too)
- watwut 8y ago
  That may mean sleep deprivation. If you have sleep deprivation, you will sleep longer for some days. Afaik, 6 hours a day is not enough for optimal performance for most people. It is minimum where people can function with somewhat, but also one where your cognitive capabilities are affected measurably.
muse900 8y ago
> Otherwise in relation to the topic in general I'm not 100% I want my most awake time to go to the company I work for. Is that wrong? Nope, I completely agree with that also. I personally don't want to spend my most awake time for the company I work either. Also just to comment on something that has been said times and times again, the 8 hour working schedule was introduced more than 150 years ago and started getting implemented 100 years ago. Its time for humanity to move on and find different systems that will allow us to work less and enjoy more of what life has to offer. We did have the computational revolution during the 90's early 2000 and now we've reached a point where a lot of jobs have been automated and a lot more to come. Think of everything out there and how much faster its been done with the use of computers and the internet. So our productivity must have went up by tremendous amounts although the working hours didn't go down at all, they remained exactly the same. My personal belief is we can easily bring it down to 6 hours a day and slowly slowly bring it down to 4 working days per week. Of course such thing must happen massively around the globe, given how interlinked countries are nowadays.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
shados 8y ago
Absolutely not a doctor (or even really know what I'm talking about), but I've been hunting down a sleep disorder I've been dealing with for a decade+, and there's at least a couple of things to consider (someone please correct me if I got anything wrong) My understanding is that during the day (evening?), your melatonin level increases. While you sleep, it goes down. If you wake up for any reason just a few hours before your optimal sleepy time, it might be a lot harder to get back to sleep. A lot of stuff might cause you to wake up early. Very common ones, especially in the US: GERD and sleep apnea. You end up waking up, you're not tired, but you didn't get the sleep you needed. The last part I was told only recently and I dunno how accurate it is, but supposedly you get most of your important REM sleep in the last few hours of sleep, so there's a pretty big difference between 6 and 8 hours, even though you might wake up (for reasons such as the ones above) but not be functioning at your fullest. And while you might be functioning on par with your colleagues...maybe you'd just be a total badass if you sleep better/more... Take all of this with a huge grain of salt :)
stephen_g 8y ago
Wow! If I don’t set an alarm, I’ll easily sleep for 10 hours...
uncletaco 8y ago
When I was in ROTC my cadet commander said "you only really need 6 hours of sleep" and like the good cadet that I was I've only slept a maximum of six hours ever since. After a couple years of using an alarm clock to do that I've been able to get up naturally after six hours for like the last 7-8 years. Not sure if its healthy but I do know I feel worse when I sleep longer.

burlesona 8y ago

That was an interesting read. I was glad to hear the article point out that many people don’t know their chronotype. My schedule has changed a lot over the years and I’ve alternated between having to be up early and up late, with both being difficult to adjust to initially. The suggested diagnostic techinique (spend two weeks on vacation with no alarm clock) sounds like a nice idea :)

vlunkr 8y ago

It would be lots easier to align work with our natural sleep cycles if the standard work week was less than 40 hours. People don’t really want to wake up at the crack of dawn, but you’ve got to get those hours in!

officemonkey 8y ago
Many people who have jobs in urban areas have to deal with long commutes on top of a standard work week. I'm one of those rare people who will happily go to bed at 9 pm every night. My favorite job was when I teleworked from 6 AM - Noon. 30 hours a week, with no commute, and my choice of hours? It was heaven.
- shados 8y ago
  in addition to that, in urban areas you have to deal with quiet hours usually being 11pm to 7am, and they're rarely respected. Hard to sleep in when the beeping backing trucks start at 6am and the jack hammers start at 6:30, and you can't do anything about the neighbors' subwoofer blasting at 11:30 so you can't go to bed early either.
  - officemonkey 8y ago
    You may find happiness living in a less dense environment. I live in a residential neighborhood among adults who seldom subwoof at any time, much less at midnight.
    - shados 8y ago
      I was raised in the residential neighborhood of a suburb...unless you're in a village where your neighbor is 300 feet away, if it's not the subwoofer, it's the kids screaming around the pool. If it's not that, it's a new developer (housing crisis and call for density and all that) building a mid-rise after the "NIMBYs" "lost". Dense or not, short of living with the wolves, it's basically just dumb luck/bad luck if you're in a quiet environment or not, because the laws are not on your side and it just takes a single asshole to ruin it for everyone. I spent years looking for the "ideal" spot, and an absolutely ridiculous amount of money to obtain it, and 6 months later zoning rules changed and screwed everything up. I've just learnt to live with earplugs, but not everyone can. More importantly, to house everyone efficiently, we need high density areas. If we must put a lot of people so close to each other, AND we agree that sleep is critical to one's health, we should treat it the same way as we deal with drinking water rules, fire safety, health code, etc. The laws should reflect and be enforced to match how important it is. Step 1: While the existing laws and ordinance suck, they're better than nothing. Let just starts by enforcing them. No one's fundamental rights are harmed if you get in trouble for driving an 18 wheeler backward in a residential zone at 4 in the morning.

scarejunba 8y ago

I was able to adjust my sleep schedule with just 300 μg of melatonin to trigger sleep. Whereas previously I'd sleep at 0100 now I sleep at 2200. Very useful.

sidcool 8y ago
Is it addictive? Are there any side effects?
- dundercoder 8y ago
  Using it too frequently can cause you to rely on it, but other than that, it’s about the safest sleep aid around.
  - a13n 8y ago
    Source? Don't believe that's true.
- kccqzy 8y ago
  No it's not. And there's very little side effect if you buy from reputable brands. About the only issue I have is that it's difficult to find melatonin in the appropriate dose (0.3mg); it's far more common to find 3mg or even 10mg.
  - r00fus 8y ago
    I recommend liquid extract - I find it on Amazon for like $15 for about 180mg = 6000 doses at 300 mcg. Easier that cutting pills or caplets.
- crisper99 8y ago
  While it didnt seem to be addictive to me I only used it for a week and then the vividness of some of the dreams bad and good caused me to stop. It never helped get me to sleep earlier. I didnt think that drastic of a change from normal was worth my mental safety.

randomacct3847 8y ago

I like waking up early because more than at any other time of the day you have a period of quiet that you can have for yourself. I lived in nyc for a short period of time and there’s a joy in stepping out between 5:30-7 and feeling how quiet the city can be.

orev 8y ago
It’s the same at night if you’re a night owl, with the added benefit of knowing you don’t have a bunch of other things you also need to get done that day (because you already did them).
- sotojuan 8y ago
  In my experience NYC is way more quiet at 6am than 1am, even residential neighborhoods. It’s also not super dark out (outside of winter).
- randomacct3847 8y ago
  Big cities aren’t quiet at night

paulcole 8y ago

I don’t want to be at work when I’m most productive! I want to be on my own time doing the things I actually want to do.

013a 8y ago

I'd love to see more information about the assertion that there are innate qualities in people which make them Larks versus Owls. I believe I am a night owl. On an average day, I don't get tired until 2am, and without an alarm clock I could sleep until 10am; by any definition this makes me a night owl. But, I question how much of this behavior is environmental versus innate. I drink a lot of coffee (never after 6pm). I work on a computer all day (blue light). My hobbies generally come alive at night (video gaming, spending time with friends, concerts). I have a naturally addictive and obsessive personality combined with low self-control (when I get started on something, like a new work problem or video game, I can't put it down). Is there research in the area of identifying actual biological reasoning behind why someone would be an owl versus a lark (genetics, etc)? Or do all of these studies just rely on behavioral self-reporting, which even the article says, is completely vulnerable to the very real problem that people really only know their behavior in the face of all of their vices, and that behavior might be different if the vices weren't there. The reason I believe that's important is because it should be a factor in our response to this. Yes, people need sleep, and they need good sleep. But if a big reason why you get tired at 2am and thus wake up at 10am is because you're watching Netflix in bed until the minute you shut your eyes, we can't ask society to accept that starting work at 11am is fine.

pseudalopex 8y ago
There are many studies.[1] Large-scale genetic studies have found markers associated with self-reported "morningness".[2][3] At least some of these markers are near genes known to affect circadian rhythms. Observational studies control factors like caffeine intake and light exposure. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronotype https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronotype [2] https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10448 https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10448 [3] https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006125 https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/jo...
bluntfang 8y ago
>I drink a lot of coffee (never after 6pm). This is insane to me. I've drank a lot of coffee before (6+ cups per day), but if I ever drink caffeine past 2PM I don't sleep until after 2AM. Have you experimented with your caffeine intake? I highly suggest it. Once I found the correct dose (1-2 cups before 10am, no more til the next day) I've found myself to feel much, much better.

lgleason 8y ago

Finally! I am most productive at night, but not all places want to have you working during that time, which is a lose-lose.

dmarlow 8y ago

What about those with cycles that aren't 24 hours?

carl-adam 8y ago

I don't believe that, just another scientist scam to get money from the government. Do some real reachers for god sake!

mrhappyunhappy 8y ago

There is an excellent episode on Joe Rogan show about sleep. Don’t have a link handy but highly recommend it.

tomcam 8y ago
Is it this one? https://podcastnotes.org/2018/04/29/why-we-sleep/ https://podcastnotes.org/2018/04/29/why-we-sleep/

jillesvangurp 8y ago

Some simple life hacks that work for me (depending external constraints). 1) I don't set an alarm clock unless I plan to get up really early to catch a plane or something like that. Normal work days, I wake up when it is light; generally around 8 am. Later in the winter and earlier in the summer. I don't fight it. That's 7-8 hours after going to bed. I need those; this is normal from what I understand. Besides, I enjoy sleeping so why cut on quality time? 2) I avoid caffeine after lunch. It causes me to sleep later and generally not get enough rest. Coffee is a short term fix when I'm tired but it sets me up for poor sleep. It works better for me when I consume less of it. 3) I eat light lunches to avoid my digestive system shutting down my brain in the afternoon. 4) I stop working when I'm tired in the early evening. The better I sleep, the later this is. Decision making goes out of the window when I'm tired and I know trying to solve complex stuff when tired is a waste of time and I can do the same job more efficiently in the morning. However, when I'm in the zone, I often keep on pushing on. This seems to happen for me a lot between 6pm and 9pm but only when I'm not distracted and well rested in the morning.

magicalhippo 8y ago
Re point 1, since I'm living a bit up north it's not bright enough outside in the morning, and my job requires me to be there by 9. So I got one of those Philips wake-up lamps, which gently fades up to a rather bright light. That helps a lot with feeling well rested when I wake up during the winter. A key point though is to allocate enough time for sleep. My morning light won't save me if I've only had 5 hours of sleep. Re point 3, I found the same incidentally when I tried (and managed) to lose weight. In order to cut down on calories I opted to simply skip lunch, and rather have a late breakfast. So I'd bring breakfast (two rather manly slices of >90% whole-grain bread) and eat it at around 10. Then I'd have dinner when I got home at around 5-6 pm. This made me have a much more even energy level throughout the work day, making me significantly more productive.

iambateman 8y ago

For what it’s worth, I’m pretty sure my body clock is, like many others, cycles every 24.75 hours. In other words, it kind of doesn’t matter, I’m always going to be fighting it. It’s been that way for my entire life: coffee or tea, winter or summer, college or home, single or married. Pretty much regardless, I’m going to feel tired at 11p today and ~11:45p tomorrow and 12:30a the following day before I do a dramatic reset and start again.

samcheng 8y ago
Sounds like you should move to Mars! The Mars day is roughly 40 minutes longer than Earth's.
- iambateman 8y ago
  See you there! I hear it’s nice this time of year!
- isostatic 8y ago
  Or more realistically get a job working on a Martian probe
cwp 8y ago
I'm the same way, and there's only one thing that works for me: exposure to sunlight in the morning.
adjkant 8y ago
When I was a teen, my clock was 27 hours. I did the vacation and natural wakeups and rotated around the clock in 7 days. It's decreased a bit but I think it's still around 25-26 hours.

IronWolve 8y ago

I had a co-worker who only needed 4 hours of sleep, a DBA manager. He told me had multiple sleep studies by the washington state college, he just won the genetic lotto, and just had more time to get things done. I've been into sleep hacking for the last 3 months, and thinking on and off about sleep cycles for myself for the last decade. Picked up a sleep tracker and newer fitbit that can track my sleep and verify each others recording. I tend to want 8 to 9 hours, but with an officer job, its been 5x 6 hours and 2x 12 hours on the weekend. This just isn't maintainable anymore for me as I'm getting older and limiting my caffeine, etc. I've switched to a 10pm to 6am with possible modifications. It makes the days 2 hours shorter, but I get time back on the weekend as I'm not re-charging up from the week, and I wake up rested every day. I've done segmented sleep when I was working a service job in my 20s while living in dorm. Crash at 10pm, Get up at 4am, work an hour, go back to sleep at 5am, and get back up at 7am. That worked great, and want to try to replicate that again. Love waking hours in the twilight mornings when its quite and refreshed. Plus, you get the benefit of another deep sleep cycle after being awake and active, and going to sleep again. (As my sleep trackers are reporting to me). And thats not even talking about supplements and exercise to effect sleep. But I recommend magnesium for everyone.

matwood 8y ago
> I've switched to a 10pm to 6am with possible modifications. It makes the days 2 hours shorter, but I get time back on the weekend as I'm not re-charging up from the week, and I wake up rested every day. This is basically the 'early' schedule I have settled on. I get up between 5-6am, workout immediately, and start the day.

pishpash 8y ago

It's not enough to have flexible policy at one or even many workplaces. The world is run by Larks and as long as that's the case, meetings will "need" to be scheduled at certain times, people will "need" to be at home at certain times, errands will "need" to be run at certain hours because places close, children will "need" to be picked up, social events will happen at certain times. Owls will always be second class citizens.

bitrrrate 8y ago

Interesting that corporate America typically likes to have cookie cutter schedules that often intrude into our mornings. However, Jeff Bezos, arguably one of the more successful business people in the world doesn’t schedule early morning meetings, sleeps 8 hours a night and wakes up naturally without an alarm clock. https://www.businessinsider.com/jeff-bezos-daily-routine-2017-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/jeff-bezos-daily-routine-201...

mschuster91 8y ago
Well, it certainly can be argued that you are a more successful business person if you're not getting ripped off by your negotiation counterparts as you fight your wish to sleep. There's a reason I don't do the "fly to X in the morning, have meeting, fly back" racket. I always have either a night train or a sleepover in a hotel, when I have to travel for workshops or hands-on work - making me get up at 4 o'clock in the morning means my employer loses at minimum half a day of productivity or more plus either night trains or hotel are cheaper than the productivity loss.

usaphp 8y ago

They should start with kids then. I remember how painful was to wake up in the morning to go to school at a very early age. Worst memories of my childhood.

everdev 8y ago
School and work hours is a very similar problem to the metric system. Even though there's a more efficient system, the switching cost is significant in that you're out of sync with all those that don't make the switch, or don't make it at the same time as you. Once the majority or a popular minority start using later work/school hours or the metric system, then there will be a catalyst for change. But for those early adopters there is a significant burden of extra communication that needs to take place.
- marcoperaza 8y ago
  Or perhaps it’s the opposite. It makes more sense for planners and idealists that everyone would sleep the same amount and wake up and work at the same time (just like they would like us all to use units divisible by 10), but reality is organic and messy and it turns out that the old traditions (segmented sleep, sleeping to the day/night cycle) had it right all along.
- ndnxhs 8y ago
  I almost had a car crash while driving to high school half asleep. Now I'm older and I get up at the same time but I don't feel tried at all.
  - stephen_g 8y ago
    Glad it didn’t turn out badly, but from a sleep cycle perspective it’s normal. Kids usually have fairly early sleep cycles, and as they age it gradually gets later, peaking around late adolescence where it can be three or so hours later than an adult. After that, it shifts back to normal over the next decade or so. Aparantly this has been observed not just with humans but in various animal species as well. But there are various disorders where people either have unusually late or early sleep cycles that can be up to several hours different from normal.

nixarian 8y ago

Anyone who uses an alarm clock to wake up has to have wondered if they were a huge mistake that was damaging their health. They're truly awful machines, maybe the most damaging machines we've ever invented.

starpilot 8y ago

> Put it this way: If you rely on an alarm clock to wake up, you’re out of sync with your own biology. You're out of sync if you're not feeling the air around you warm up with the sun, or watching the sky above you change from black to the glimmer of dawn, or hearing the birds start to chirp with the sunrise. I've experienced all of these with hundreds of nights backpacking in the wilderness, and indeed it has been the best sleep of my life. If you've any semblance of a modern, industrial lifestyle though then you're so screwed up by the rest of your life that an alarm clock is the least of your artifical interruptions.

ekianjo 8y ago
> industrial lifestyle though then you're so screwed up by the rest of your life that an alarm clock is the least of your artifical interruptions. Indeed. Just the use of artificial light is enough to mess up with your biorhythm. It would be fair to say that "humans have been out of sync with their own biology" for several decades if not a century. And it's only getting more so.
GoToRO 8y ago
I agree with what you said, except with "the least". I quit setting an alarm and it already made a big difference. Maybe because I already see the Sun when I wake up and kind of hear the birds. Anyway, there is and AND between all those conditions, more than an OR.
black-tea 8y ago
Unfortunately, where I live that means I would get 16 hours of sleep in the winter and 6 hours in the summer.
nottorp 8y ago
Are you sure that the physical effort and the cleaner wilderness air weren't the actual factors that made you sleep better than in the city?
rmah 8y ago
I wholeheartedly agree. When we go camping, one of my rules is no clocks. I find that, within a few days, we wake up just before dawn without consciously doing anything. It seems natural, everyone just falls into it. And for me at least, the sleeps while camping are some of the best I've ever experienced.

matthewhall 8y ago

I recently started using an app called Sleep Cycle to help my body's response to the alarm. It measures how deep your sleep is and wakes you when your sleep is shallow (within the time range). I find myself waking up thirty-plus minutes earlier and feeling much better and awake, all day. My next endeavor will be to build a Circadian Rythm light clock that changes the ambient light in the room to naturally wake me up.

pushpankar 8y ago

I was a night owl. I would sleep around 2-3AM. Then I started working out and Stopped drinking coffee. These days, I feel tired by 11 and wake up around 7AM.

rconti 8y ago

I am just finishing reading the fantastic book Why We Sleep [1], and as in so many well-meaning studies and articles, I can't help but feel like this effort is misguided. Just like an addict cannot accept help until they want it, I don't see how "adjusting" work schedules for those who don't even understand their own biology can possibly be helpful. I've ALWAYS considered myself a night owl. I'm still not sure I'm not. But I've spent the past year rising earlier than I'm used to, and the past 7 months rising even earlier than that due to an enforced carpool with my wife. For the first time in my working life, I HAVE to be awake at a certain time (incidentally, far earlier than I'm used to). Instead of snoozing for an hour, I bolt from bed far earlier than I want to. I go to sleep marginally earlier. But my routine is regular I'm happier. I feel better. I feel healthier. I started reading the book and am acutely interested in tuning my sleep times to make this work even better. Maybe I've never been a night owl. Maybe I've just had horrible sleep habits. Or maybe I AM a night owl, and I'd be even better off than I can possibly imagine, if I take all of these habits and processes and move them later in the day. But I just feel like you can't possibly know if you're a morning bird or a night owl until you're already, consistently, religiously, getting enough sleep every night, on a consistent sleep/wake schedule. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-Dreams/dp/1501144316 https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-Dreams/dp/1501...

stephen_g 8y ago
If you’re not experiencing any symptoms of sleep deprivation, then you’ve probably just got a normal circadian rhythm. You might be a ‘night owl by preference’ and had some bad habits, but there are plenty of people who are night owls by necessity because of their circadian rhythm.
ivanhoe 8y ago
> For the first time in my working life, I HAVE to be awake at a certain time This one on its own is (for me at least) far more important than the exact time when you go to bed/ wake up. Having the steady rhythm of life gives you the feeling of control and reduces anxieties, and you'll almost certainly feel better after some time. I used to work nightshifts in the data-center for a while and I would sleep during the day and it worked for me just fine. On the other hand while in the army I was getting up really early (4.30am every morning) every day, and again it was working great for me (after some adjustment period of course). So two completely opposite schedules, but both very strict and regular over the 6+ months period, and both made me feel very energetic and healthy. However, as a student I also briefly had a job with the weirdest floating schedule where you'd one day work a morning shift, then in the afternoon next day, then a nightshift, and then you'd have a free day afterwards. That one was a disaster, I just couldn't get used to that schedule. I gained 20 kg in 6 months and felt sleepy and tired all the time. Routine is a good thing.

pts_ 8y ago

>And at some pharmaceutical, software and financial companies, managers expect employees to come to the office for only a few hours in the middle of the day — or to work off site entirely. I am curious how pharma jobs can be carried out offsite(from home?).

katsura 8y ago

I know people who have to work 3 days in the morning, 1 day rest, 3 days in the afternoon, 1 day rest, and 3 days at night. I understand that there are places where they have to keep the workers in rotation, but why don't they change this monthly, for example? I don't think that in 3 days your internal clock can adjust.

LoSboccacc 8y ago

As a night owl I like that day shift. I love having the most productive hours for myself

matfil 8y ago

One of the barriers to seeing more of this is the current focus on ”team-ism”. In the technical world, practices like pair programming and daily stand ups are big drivers of regular working hours in a field that was historically one of the better ones for individual flexibility.

Proven 8y ago

I set my own and always work longer and do more. There's no way in hell this fancy stuff could help me. And I've a problem with "more productive". Of course if I work only 10 minutes I'll be "more productive" per unit of time or cost, than when I work 11 hours. But I'll get nothing done within 10 minutes so guess what will happen... This idealism may work for some folks (ie to practice swimming 12 hours a day may be worse than 4 hours) and those in uncompetitive lines of work. Not for me, though.

lordnacho 8y ago

I manage a team of 20 fully remote devs, so I get to see exactly when everyone is working. When they're chatting, when they're pushing code. We don't force people to be working at any particular time, so I'm guessing when I see them is when they want to be working. You can tell some people are complete night owls. One guy checks in code at 3am and rarely talks to anyone until the evening. I guess he sleeps when the sun is out. Other people are a bit more ordinary, but still it seems the most productive hours are not quite as early as when most schools or businesses tend to be open. I'd say maybe 10am is the de facto "opening time". There's also a tendency to have a lull in chat in the early afternoon. People go off to lunch having some ideas about what to do, and then they come back and do it before dinner. Or they are in deep thinking mode and don't want to talk, and then check in the code. Having no meeting time and no commute seems to help everyone. It gives everyone an extra work day each week, and they can spend their time when they want to. It also makes managing easier, as I don't have to chase everyone at the exact same time.

asia777 8y ago
Are you guys hiring? :P
- lordnacho 8y ago
  Right at this moment we're focusing on launch, don't have time to onboard anyone. If launch goes well probably.
  - sytse 8y ago
    You can find other fully remote companies at https://www.glassdoor.com/blog/100-percent-remote-companies/ https://www.glassdoor.com/blog/100-percent-remote-companies/ and we at GitLab are all remote as well.
z3phyr 8y ago
> One guy checks in code at 3am and rarely talks to anyone until the evening Does everyone live in the same time zone?

dbg31415 8y ago

Getting up early is my super power. I wake up at 5 AM every day without an alarm. I make my bed (1), I walk my dogs, I make breakfast, I hit the gym, I get a nice long shower, I have time to do things before all the distractions kick in. I have a short commute. Highly recommend getting up at 5 AM. (1) If You Want to Change the World, Start Off by Making Your Bed - William McRaven, US Navy Admiral - YouTube || https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sK3wJAxGfs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sK3wJAxGfs

deleted 8y ago

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Entalpi 8y ago

Not all hours are equal in terms of productivity. Realising this made me change so that I dont overwork.

jimijazz 8y ago

From reading a blog post a while back I got into believing that I have a 25-hour circadian rhythm. This means that if I wouldn't use an alarm to wake up, I would end up waking up and going to bed later and later as days go by. Is there such a thing? Does anyone have any similar experience/advise?

rauhl 8y ago

I realised after reading this that if indeed there’s a cognitive peak an hour or two after waking, then that’s a pretty good argument for remote working: it enables one to enjoy two peaks per day while working instead of just the one late-afternoon one, since one doesn’t waste one’s peak somewhere between breakfast and commuting. It does also make the old routine of reading the morning paper seem pretty smart, since presumably doing so during a cognitive peak increases reading comprehension & retention.

asadkn 8y ago

Is anyone aware of any studies done on whether and how soon the "circadian rhythm" adjusts and changes? Personally, I easily and fully adjust within a few weeks to any new sleep schedule. For 10-14 days, I definitely feel more fatigued and productivity decreases after a drastic schedule change, but things get to normal very soon. I currently sleep at 7am and wake up at 3pm. Just a few months back, I used to sleep at 9pm and wake up at 4am. Previous few years have seen 10am-6pm, 7am-3pm, 2am-10pm, 8pm-4am etc. As for personal preference, I prefer my 7am-3pm sleep schedule the most simply because nights are more peaceful with no distractions. tl;dr I have changed my schedules countless times over the years, and after an adjustment period of few weeks, there's little difference in terms of productivity or how I feel.

samnwa 8y ago
A cool trick to adjust your schedule in just 1 night is to stop eating 12-16 hours before you want to wake up. This is particular great for travel to adjust quickly to time zone changes.

Zelmor 8y ago

Been fully remote since mid 2016. I've never received positive comments on my work attitude before this position. - I am thin and tall, constantly feeling cold in air-conditioned offices. - The office lights hurt my eyes. - I prefer music playing instead of people talking, and I do not feel bad for taking an hour long break when I feel exhausted or frustrated. - I usually wake up around 8, so I get out the door after coffee&breakfast is done, and we get dressed with the wife. We don't leave the house before 9:30 on average. - I also think commuting longer than a 15 minute walk/bus ride is a waste of my time. - I am working from a laptop, so I think it should be completely acceptable to send a mail in the morning saying "I'll be working from under a warm blanket & my cat today" when there is no in-person meeting scheduled. In my current position I'm assigned projects that get done on time and feedback is positive. Work is done, all is well. Noone cares when you start the day, just show up for the calls, which are never scheduled before 9:30 on my request. We got a junior fired because she couldn't keep up with expectations. I think full-remote wasn't for her. She also had untreated schizophrenia, I bet that didn't help either. When you are a couple screws loose, it helps to have people around to keep you grounded. On winter days I almost exclusively work from cafes, so as to avoid winter depression.