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Amazon driver arrested after taking GPS 'bait' package off Washington Co. porch

196 points by MagicPropmaker 8y ago

InGodsName 8y ago
Cobra effect seems to be brewing here.
- KMag 8y ago
  As others have pointed out, the guy may be pretending to have misinterpreted the way the program works in order to reduce his penalty. Other than his statement, there's no indication that Amazon does pay drivers to return packages never assigned to them. He may also have genuinely misinterpreted the rule and been unlucky enough to get caught his first time trying to game the system. Even if their system has the flaw described by the theif, their package tracking system would be pretty poorly designed if it can't be trivially modified to prevent drivers from returning packages not assigned to them. I imagine they also datamine non-delivery and missing package rates by neighborooh, day-of-week, driver, and a few other factors and flag suspicious drivers. This probably means having a given driver cover a patchwork of different neighborhoods on on irregular schedule to reduce the effect of a driver being unlucky enough to get assigned a high theft neighborhood on a high theft day of the week. If they find the package return rates are really too high, it's easy enough to just pay all drivers to return to the warehouse at the end of their shift. However, that probably costs significantly more and is inconvenient for drivers.
gkoberger 8y ago
"Deputies said that they found 18 other Amazon packages inside his vehicle. They delivered the rest of the packages." That was really awesome of them to do, especially around Christmas!
- Waterluvian 8y ago
  I'm impressed they didn't disappear into the void of, "maybe this needs to be kept as evidence. I dunno... Maybe ... Easier to just assume so than risk getting a slap on the wrist"
  - protomyth 8y ago
    Being known as the police department that screwed up some kids Christmas is not a good thing particularly in a town of around 49K. Plus, most small town cops are not bad people (frankly like most people in this world aren't the bad sort).
    - a11595 8y ago
      My sample size of 1 says the opposite. I was driving from Greensboro to that hometown of Lowes. I think ~3 hour drive, speed limit is 70, in the middle of nowhere. I'm doing 75 on cruise. Guy pull behind me on the road empty as far as the eye can see. Rides my bumper for 10 minutes. The lights go on, speeding ticket. Feel free to fly out here again and go to court. The ticket for 5mph over the highway limit? $350. I spend a thousand to get a big time attorney out there, took it to court, got it dismissed. Just to prove a point. How many stories out there have you read about this happening to people - small town, passing through, and they rape you on made up bs because it's hard for you to come back and go to court. How about all those small towns in the news where they steal all the cash out of your car? Small town cops are not bad people - to the small town in which they live. Saying they are not bad people in general is opposite of the truth. It's like saying the nazis were great people because they were good to other nazis.
      - orcdork 8y ago
        So you broke the law, willingly, and got out of it because you have money.
        a11595 8y ago
        Or, you know, you could try going outside and joining society. 5mph over on the highway is completely normal, and the only reason the smalltown cop, those OP claims to be nice guys, gave me a ticket is because I was transiting through. $350 for 5mph over on the highway is normal in your world? Again, I urge you to go outside and join society, oh mighty keyboard warrior.
      - 8y ago
- Steko 8y ago
  A telling contrast with the Mark Rober video and comments. Citizen has video evidence of package being stolen ? Or in the case of the comments GPS of offenders? Police dont give a fuck. Trillion dolllar company? Yes sir Mr Bezos, and we’ll deliver those extra packages for you on our time as well! YPDMV
  - netsharc 8y ago
    Seems like in this case the GPS trap is the police's, maybe they like it better if it's their own idea. In the dystopian near-future, Amazon will start offering police departments these kinds of bait packages so they can reduce package theft...
    - geofft 8y ago
      The dystopian medium-term future is relocation incentives being paid by cities to increase liquidity and therefore facilitate competition in the "better place to live" market. ... I guess we already have those for corporations, so extending it to individuals can't be much worse. But there's currently little meaningful competition to shake out what small-scale policies are better (e.g., the question of how much your police should care about package theft probably has basically the same answer throughout all of American suburbia) and it'd be interesting to see if people make the markets work efficiently (and leave ghost towns in the wake of bad decisions).
    - Kadin 8y ago
      They say in the article that the police department was able to double the number of bait packages due to a grant from an external organization. It would be pretty trivial to donate money to a charity or "Friends of" organization and then have them write a grant to pay for bait package kits. Not saying that's what happened -- lots of people might be pissed about the package-theft epidemic -- but it certainly could.
    - matte_black 8y ago
      Why is that dystopian? That actually sounds pretty awesome and would be great if it reduces package thefts.
- heyjudy 8y ago
  Pretty bad when Five-o has to do the job of underpaid temp workers with no livable wages or job security.
- sparkie 8y ago
  Sounds like the police in Oregon have too much time on their hands.
lsh 8y ago
> ... claiming he did it because Amazon has an incentive program that pays drivers $5 for each undelivered package they return. and then > "This behavior is unacceptable and does not reflect the high standards we have for delivery partners," Amazon so you build a delivery system with incentives to not deliver packages, then fire those with the temerity to game the system.
- mikeash 8y ago
  We expect people to follow the law even when breaking it would profit them. Do we criticize stores for building a business with incentives for taking stuff without paying, then prosecuting people who take advantage of that?
  - lsh 8y ago
    We've built systems to fleece the sick and dying and put children into prisons, why the hell not?
    - CryptoPunk 8y ago
      You're being overly critical of society, and failing to consider the nuance in all of these policies. What's the alternative to allowing healthcare providers to sell their product/services to the dying? Throw anyone who does in prison? But then you're criminalizing consensual interactions. Force other people to pay for the medical care of the dying? Then you're throwing people who refuse to care for people they have no moral responsibility for in prison. Maybe you think the latter is the answer, but it's not an easy thing to justify, especially for those who reject your ideological presuppositions. And what do you do with children of people entering the country illegally? Release them to their parents, and let their parents go home without punishment? Maybe that's what you prefer. But there are major trade-offs from having such a policy, in losing the ability to disincentivize illegal immigration, so it's not obvious it's the right stance. It's easy to criticize society when you don't have a better alternate solution to difficult problems. You're mistaken if you think throwing your arms in the air and saying "to hell with it", and contributing to those problems, by justifying theft of property, won't make things worse. It will. The only constructive way forward is to do the right thing in every situation, and clearly the right thing is not to violate the trust your client/employer put in you and steal a package. Making excuses for this behaviour only encourages more people to go down this destructive path in life.
ahakki 8y ago
> Johnson admitted to taking bait package, claiming he did it because Amazon has an incentive program that pays drivers $5 for each undelivered package they return. Like paying for rat tails.
- X6S1x6Okd1st 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect
  - MrMorden 8y ago
    http://windupstories.com/books/pump-six-and-other-stories/the-tamarisk-hunter/ http://windupstories.com/books/pump-six-and-other-stories/th...
univerio 8y ago
> [...] he did it because Amazon has an incentive program that pays drivers $5 for each undelivered package they return. Not sure I understand the program and how it benefits Amazon in any way.
- gkoberger 8y ago
  To avoid people thinking "meh, they aren't answering, I'm just gonna toss it in the garbage". Since these are contractors driving their own cars, they don't "return to Amazon" at the end of the day. So, basically, Amazon is just compensating people for the drive back to the warehouse that they only have to do if they have packages leftover. (Remember that this article is quoting an arrested man; I think there's a good chance what he's saying is a lie. He's probably just stealing packages.)
  - tlrobinson 8y ago
    I still don't get it. Why do they need an incentive to not toss it in the garbage?
    - taborj 8y ago
      Because a non-zero number of the drivers are scum?
    - gkoberger 8y ago
      I did a bit of research, and found a bunch of people saying they just leave undelivered packages in their cars because they don't have time (desire?) to drive back to the warehouse 10-15 minutes away. I also couldn't find anything about anyone getting paid, so either the arrested guy was lying or it's something new they're trying? But if it's true, I'd say it's less of an incentive, and more of Amazon just compensating people who end up having to do more work. https://www.reddit.com/r/AmazonFlexDrivers/comments/70m0gy/not_getting_paid_for_the_time_it_takes_to_return/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AmazonFlexDrivers/comments/70m0gy/n... https://www.reddit.com/r/AmazonFlexDrivers/comments/8f112d/whats_the_correct_way_to_return_a_package_that/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AmazonFlexDrivers/comments/8f112d/w...
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
djsumdog 8y ago
No prior records. ... This sucks. His ability to get work will be greatly diminished because he thought he could game some poorly structured Amazon system. I mean, I know it's still his fault. Still, I wish people would take time to think about these kinds of decisions though.
- wowzap 8y ago
  I hope railroading this guy assures that none of my amazon packages are ever stolen in this kind of scheme again. I don't feel bad for him whatsoever. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
  - RodericDay 8y ago
    It's funny how bloodthirsty people are when it comes to someone being ultra-punished stealing a consumer product, but I bet when people talk about wage theft and capitalist malfeasance this guy turns into a corporate lawyer.
    - mynameisvlad 8y ago
      I mean, the two scenarios are completely different. Yes, they both suck, but it's almost impossible to compare stealing physical property one owns and "stealing" the potential difference in wage between two individuals.
      - RodericDay 8y ago
        ...that's not what wage theft is
  - scrollaway 8y ago
    (Replying to the dead comment) People are bloodthirsty because stealing packages is so much more personal than, say, shoplifting. The mail is personal. The shit you get shipped is personal. Especially around christmas. "Who the fuck steals the gift for my nana?" And it's like, people don't usually even know what they're stealing. There's a damage&reward imbalance between the person who loses something of great potential sentimental value (it's not always amazon packages, sometimes it's stuff people send each other), just so that some petty thief has a shot at having something they care about / can make a profit on. I'm with everyone else on this, fuck people who steal packages. Those and bike thieves.
dawnerd 8y ago
This happened a couple blocks from me. There's been a ton of packages going missing around here. Luckily I live on a small off street that doesn't really attract criminals. Also should add, I've had pretty bad luck with amazons hired drivers actually delivering packages on time or at all. When I lived in the city they'd often call me up asking me to meet them down on the street since they couldn't figure out how an apartment building worked.
- nightfly 8y ago
  I'm off Millikan and Amazons direct couriers have been an order of magnitude more reliable than my UPS driver (who doesn't follow my delivery preferences and takes my stuff to random UPS stores that I have to pick it up from).
  - Sohcahtoa82 8y ago
    I live about a mile west from the Nike campus. I have Amazon deliver packages to the locker at the Plaid Pantry on Murray and Walker. Never a misdelivery, never a stolen package. And I drive right by it as I drive home from my daily commute, so it's super convenient.
  - dawnerd 8y ago
    Thats good to hear. Fedex is the one here that is really unreliable. I work from home and my office faces the street. I'll have the blinds open and the driver will still try to sneak up and leave a delivery attempted note.
    - Kadin 8y ago
      So does anyone know why delivery drivers do that? Is there some sort of perverse incentive to leaving a delivery note versus actually delivering the package? I can kinda get the incentive (saving time) on signature-required packages, since it's faster to slap a label on the door than wait for someone to answer and sign for the thing. But why do they do it on non-signature packages? It makes no sense.
chihuahua 8y ago
I've started having Amazon packages delivered to Amazon's package lockers. For example, at 7-eleven stores and Safeway stores. I've also had Newegg packages delivered to Walgreen stores. Bit of a hassle to go there for pickup, but better than having expensive things stolen.
- gruez 8y ago
  >Bit of a hassle to go there for pickup, but better than having expensive things stolen afaik you're not liable if that happens (Amazon will send another for free), so why should you care?
  - chrisseaton 8y ago
    > so why should you care? Because you don't have the item you ordered until a second is sent?
  - SamReidHughes 8y ago
    Because some thief is getting away with it.
    - masonic 8y ago
      ... and now associates your name and address with items of value to be had.
  - chihuahua 8y ago
    I was under the impression that because I've told UPS that they can leave packages without requiring a signature, I'm liable for packages that disappear. But I'm not sure - I have never had a package stolen, so I don't know what would happen
patientplatypus 8y ago
The law, in its infinite magnanimity, forbids the rich and poor alike from stealing bread, sleeping under bridges, and loitering. Considering the demographic of the people who read Hacker News I would be willing to bet that most of you have never seriously considered having to steal to get by.
- donatj 8y ago
  Comparing stealing a package to stealing bread is silly.
joefourier 8y ago
Why is it standard practice in the US to leave undelivered packages on the porch of people's homes? With the reports of stolen packages and Amazon having to put dummy packages to catch thieves, as a non-American I'm struggling to understand why they don't just put them back in the truck and let you arrange a later delivery or pick-up at the closest parcel centre.
- ctulek 8y ago
  I don't think it is standard practice but depends on neighborhood. Trying to re-deliver a package should be more costly than covering the cost of lost package when the crime rate is low.
- benjaminl 8y ago
  Because in much of the country it is incredibly rare to have a package stolen off of a porch. For example I have never had a package stolen nor do I know of a person who has had a package stolen off of their porch. The person sending the package can choose if the package is left at the door or if it requires a signature. Amazon and others like them have decided that the increased convenience is worth the occasional cost of reshooting a package.
  - dboreham 8y ago
    I know of two separate cases of package theft so...ymmv.
- mdasen 8y ago
  Ultimately, if I'm not home on Monday between 9am and 5pm, I'm not going to be home on Tuesday between 9am and 5pm. That might sound like a simplistic answer, but I want my package and I don't want to have to pick it up at the service center or stay home to wait for it. I also think that package theft is reasonably rare - to the point that retailers are willing to put up with it and just re-ship the packages. I live in a major city and in a decade I've never had one package be taken (at 5 addresses in different neighborhoods). Personally, I wouldn't want them to attempt re-delivery for days and then tell me to come to their service center to pick it up. Companies like UPS and Amazon also have options if you're worried about theft. UPS can leave it at lots of convenience stores for pickup. Amazon has their lockers all over the place. Still, given that I've never had a single package stolen including shipments of laptops and such, I don't really want to have to travel to pick up my package.
tareqak 8y ago
What would happen if I noticed a package not addressed to me on my porch, and I: 1) Took it inside? 2) Took it inside and called USPS/FedEx/UPS depending on the shipping label? 3) Took it into my car, and drove to a USPS/FedEx/UPS office depending on the label? To add, I appreciate that there are efforts behind solving this problem. I'm living in an apartment, and I've had to deal with missing packages as well. I'd personally rather have legitimate packages have trackers, and then return or drop-off the tracker once I receive the package successfully. I understand the price would be high given the scale of my ask.
- sparky_z 8y ago
  Not sure what you're getting at. Are you suggesting that the police would leave bait packages at random houses without the informed consent of the occupants? And then arrest them if they picked them up? That would be nuts, but there's no suggestion of anything like that in the article.
  - tareqak 8y ago
    You could have informed consent of some of the occupants and not all e.g. tenants, roommates. I also assume they have informed consent, but there was no explicit mention of this consent in the article.
- function_seven 8y ago
  You live there. You're allowed to remove items from your own porch. I think the scenarios would be: 1) Cops show up and and say, "Hey, that was a bait package. Can we get it back?" 2) Same as 1), plus USPS/FedEx/UPS would be unable to locate the tracking number. 3) Cops pull you over, thinking you're a porch pirate. You tell them where you live, and they regret the error, and ask for their bait package back. (But these scenarios probably wouldn't happen in the first place. I assume that the chosen bait locations were done with the knowledge of the residents.)
  - xkcd-sucks 8y ago
    4) Cops arrest and charge you with theft over $10000 (the tracker is overpriced), interfering with an investigation, and resisting arrest. You make a deal and plead guilty to resisting arrest in exchange for having the other charges dropped.
advisedwang 8y ago
What does Amazon do with packages returned like this one was about to be? Presumably delivery is re-tried or the user refunded... in which case stopping this behaviour isn't actually preventing any thefts, just adding delays.
patio11 8y ago
It seems like HNers are quite willing to believe that Amazon factually has the "We'll pay a non-employee contractor a bonus to move without authorization onto private property to take a package they don't have any documentation for and reintroduce it into our logistics system at some arbitrary point in the future" policy. This... is an unlikely policy for Amazon to have.
- munk-a 8y ago
  It may be indeed, but the article gives no indication that this isn't a policy Amazon has after giving a vague indication that it might be. HNers are reading a news story as clearly as it was written. (to contrast, the other option is that HNers would make logical assumptions and making logical assumptions is quite illogical when it comes to how large corporations interact with sub-contractors)
  - mikeash 8y ago
    However, the story is quite clear that this is a claim made by the accused thief, and not independently verified in any way. When an accused criminal gives a stupid-sounding justification for why he committed the crime, maybe don’t believe him.
    - tempestn 8y ago
      I would argue that the author should have made some attempt to independently verify the claim, or if unable to confirm or deny, at least include a line to that effect.
    - marcosdumay 8y ago
      When somebody (whoever may be) claims something very unlikely the confidence people have on it being true has no other way to go but up. And people react to that change by talking. It's a bad cycle where absurd stuff (like "the Earth is plane") gets normalized by people repeating their surprised reactions. But there's no reason to think we are seeing anything besides people coping with an idea they will conclude is baseless.
drivertoss 8y ago
I used to drive for an Amazon contractor earlier this year and I can tell you from experience that most package theft isn't coming from situations like this, but instead packages that are actually a part of a driver's route Usually each delivery contractor has a set delivery area because of this it's extremely obvious when you're given a bait package because it's usually got an address that's very much out of your way. Or the package will look really beat up. Most of the time it's the former in these cases. Where I saw the most theft happen was packages that had an address that couldn't be found, clearly marked items (ex. toilet paper in a branded box), or a driver genuinely misplaces a package inside the van so they mark it missing only to find it later in the day. Now you might ask: why not just bring a package back if there's a legitimate issue with it's delivery? You'll be marked down. So it's easier in many cases to simply rip off the label and abandon it or take it for yourself and hope you've been given something valuable. Most of these guys are in rough situations, are under extreme pressure to perform (200 + deliveries in a day), and often aren't given benefts or a stable schedule. Turnover is extremely high, employee theft is absolutely rampant, and frankly it seems like Amazon never cared so long as there was a certain threshold of delivered packages for the day. Sure when you are claiming multiple packages per week are on your manifest but not present in your van things get suspicious, but of course all they do is send you an extremely obvious bait package that you'll end up returning unless you're just stupid. Many of these drivers aren't lasting more than a year and almost all of them are gaming the system through the method I listed above so there's no reprecussion for doing the wrong thing and in most cases doing the right thing gets you a thank you coupled with a black mark on your record. I've seen easily over 10k worth of theft in my first few months I really do wonder how Amazon manages to stay in business.
ElijahLynn 8y ago
So we have some Amazon drivers stealing Amazon packages now? Seems like in 5 years this won't be an issue anymore, not sure how yet, but seems like it will be solved.
gesman 8y ago
Amazon giveth, Amazon taketh away...
baoha 8y ago
This happened to my friend last year, her security camera captured the whole thing: driver dropped off the package, took a picture as proof of delivery, then picked up the package. She didn't report to the police in fear of retaliation.
- __david__ 8y ago
  Fear that the driver would retaliate? I mean, if it's a driver I'd report it right to Amazon. They'd probably care more than the police.
heyjudy 8y ago
Glitter bomb and fart spray bait packages with integrated 360° cameras should be sold on Kickstarter and then Amazon. Search also: Youtube
sandworm101 8y ago
Downvote if you want, but I have real sympathy for these crooks. This leaving of valuables on our front porches is a new thing. If I were shopping at a mall, and left my purchases on the roof of my car, I would not expect them to remain there hours later. Theft is illegal but for centuries we at least made it difficult. We didn't rely on the law as the only deterrent. Leaving valuables on your front porch while you are at work is like walking out into a crosswalk and just assuming that all the cars will stop for you. Arrest the thieves. Punish them as the law deems necessary. But do not demonize them. These glitter bombs and GPS devices are sad. These are non-violent property crimes. Cops have far more important things to do than protect your right to leave your new iPhone in public view all day. Pay for proper delivery. Take the time to pick it up at a dropoff location. Have it sent to a neighbor who is home during the day. That's far easier than playing pathetic pranks on pathetic criminals.
- ben174 8y ago
  Well stated point. I disagree with you but will certainly not downvote you.
  - sandworm101 8y ago
    I guess as a former attorney I see the slippery slope here, the history. Once upon a time there was a guy who hung out on the NYC subway. He had nice cloths and a fancy watch. He was the bait. With a revolver in his pocket he was also the hunter. He found what he was looking for. These bait boxes are a step towards that guy on the subway. They aren't exactly entrapment or vigilantism, but nevertheless aren't ethical behavior. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_New_York_City_Subway_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_New_York_City_Subway_shoo...
    - Dylan16807 8y ago
      > aren't exactly entrapment Are you saying that dressing nice is approaching entrapment? I can think of some similar arguments... I could see an entrapment angle for something that appears to be abandoned property. Not for something that has very clear ownership, where you can expect that the owner is going to come for it in the near future.
flexer2 8y ago
I have delivered thousands of packages through the Amazon Flex program; I am quite well-versed in their policies. There is no such incentive policy to return undeliverable packages as he claims. If you are out making deliveries, and you can’t deliver a package for whatever reason, you mark it as undeliverable in the app and return it to the station after your route is complete. That’s just part of the gig. It sucks because you might have to go out of your way to bring back the packages to the station (using your own gas and time), so the real incentive is to deliver the package, even if it’s risky. This guy is just a lying thief. There is no such program. Edit: I should add that Amazon keeps track of your delivery metrics, including the percent that are undelivered/late/reported missing (DNR, did not receive)/etc. If you drop below some threshold you get kicked off the app. You get a weekly email with a summary of your stats. I think I had a couple DNRs out of the thousands of things I delivered, and was paranoid they were going to kick me off for them.
- chrissnell 8y ago
  Does Amazon still use OnTrac? I had countless delivery issues with OnTrac when I lived in Tacoma, WA. I'm not even kidding when I say that 50% of the packages never made it and another 20% made it many days after their online status said that they were "delivered". It was truly the shittiest package delivery system I've ever seen. It wouldn't surprise me at all if this guy worked for OnTrac and that OnTrac did have some kind of incentive which encouraged this. I would have had more reliable delivery if Amazon simply gave the packages to a meth head on a BMX bike.
  - flexer2 8y ago
    They still use them although where I live it just seems to be for larger packages. Most stuff is delivered to me by Flex drivers now. I agree, though, they are the absolute worst. This guy was probably just a Flex driver. I’ve had bad experiences with them, too, but OnTrac is much worse.
  - llama052 8y ago
    OnTrac is the worst, in Palo Alto the Ontrac guys would drop off every single package they had from Amazon at our Apartment Leasing office after they were closed, so you'd often find 5+ packages sitting on the doorfront in the evening, instead of delivering the packages to the apartment locations (which are clearly labeled and very public) Now in Oregon I ordered winter tires, Ontrac marked them delivered on the delivery date but never actually dropped them off, later and they decided to deliver 4 days later once I complained to the Shipper. It's all anecdotal but the moment I see anything delivered by Ontrac I just assume it has a 50/50 chance of being actually delivered.

Cobra effect seems to be brewing here.

KMag 8y ago
As others have pointed out, the guy may be pretending to have misinterpreted the way the program works in order to reduce his penalty. Other than his statement, there's no indication that Amazon does pay drivers to return packages never assigned to them. He may also have genuinely misinterpreted the rule and been unlucky enough to get caught his first time trying to game the system. Even if their system has the flaw described by the theif, their package tracking system would be pretty poorly designed if it can't be trivially modified to prevent drivers from returning packages not assigned to them. I imagine they also datamine non-delivery and missing package rates by neighborooh, day-of-week, driver, and a few other factors and flag suspicious drivers. This probably means having a given driver cover a patchwork of different neighborhoods on on irregular schedule to reduce the effect of a driver being unlucky enough to get assigned a high theft neighborhood on a high theft day of the week. If they find the package return rates are really too high, it's easy enough to just pay all drivers to return to the warehouse at the end of their shift. However, that probably costs significantly more and is inconvenient for drivers.

"Deputies said that they found 18 other Amazon packages inside his vehicle. They delivered the rest of the packages." That was really awesome of them to do, especially around Christmas!

Waterluvian 8y ago
I'm impressed they didn't disappear into the void of, "maybe this needs to be kept as evidence. I dunno... Maybe ... Easier to just assume so than risk getting a slap on the wrist"
- protomyth 8y ago
  Being known as the police department that screwed up some kids Christmas is not a good thing particularly in a town of around 49K. Plus, most small town cops are not bad people (frankly like most people in this world aren't the bad sort).
  - a11595 8y ago
    My sample size of 1 says the opposite. I was driving from Greensboro to that hometown of Lowes. I think ~3 hour drive, speed limit is 70, in the middle of nowhere. I'm doing 75 on cruise. Guy pull behind me on the road empty as far as the eye can see. Rides my bumper for 10 minutes. The lights go on, speeding ticket. Feel free to fly out here again and go to court. The ticket for 5mph over the highway limit? $350. I spend a thousand to get a big time attorney out there, took it to court, got it dismissed. Just to prove a point. How many stories out there have you read about this happening to people - small town, passing through, and they rape you on made up bs because it's hard for you to come back and go to court. How about all those small towns in the news where they steal all the cash out of your car? Small town cops are not bad people - to the small town in which they live. Saying they are not bad people in general is opposite of the truth. It's like saying the nazis were great people because they were good to other nazis.
    - orcdork 8y ago
      So you broke the law, willingly, and got out of it because you have money.
      - a11595 8y ago
        Or, you know, you could try going outside and joining society. 5mph over on the highway is completely normal, and the only reason the smalltown cop, those OP claims to be nice guys, gave me a ticket is because I was transiting through. $350 for 5mph over on the highway is normal in your world? Again, I urge you to go outside and join society, oh mighty keyboard warrior.
    - 8y ago
Steko 8y ago
A telling contrast with the Mark Rober video and comments. Citizen has video evidence of package being stolen ? Or in the case of the comments GPS of offenders? Police dont give a fuck. Trillion dolllar company? Yes sir Mr Bezos, and we’ll deliver those extra packages for you on our time as well! YPDMV
- netsharc 8y ago
  Seems like in this case the GPS trap is the police's, maybe they like it better if it's their own idea. In the dystopian near-future, Amazon will start offering police departments these kinds of bait packages so they can reduce package theft...
  - geofft 8y ago
    The dystopian medium-term future is relocation incentives being paid by cities to increase liquidity and therefore facilitate competition in the "better place to live" market. ... I guess we already have those for corporations, so extending it to individuals can't be much worse. But there's currently little meaningful competition to shake out what small-scale policies are better (e.g., the question of how much your police should care about package theft probably has basically the same answer throughout all of American suburbia) and it'd be interesting to see if people make the markets work efficiently (and leave ghost towns in the wake of bad decisions).
  - Kadin 8y ago
    They say in the article that the police department was able to double the number of bait packages due to a grant from an external organization. It would be pretty trivial to donate money to a charity or "Friends of" organization and then have them write a grant to pay for bait package kits. Not saying that's what happened -- lots of people might be pissed about the package-theft epidemic -- but it certainly could.
  - matte_black 8y ago
    Why is that dystopian? That actually sounds pretty awesome and would be great if it reduces package thefts.
heyjudy 8y ago
Pretty bad when Five-o has to do the job of underpaid temp workers with no livable wages or job security.
sparkie 8y ago
Sounds like the police in Oregon have too much time on their hands.

lsh 8y ago

> ... claiming he did it because Amazon has an incentive program that pays drivers $5 for each undelivered package they return. and then > "This behavior is unacceptable and does not reflect the high standards we have for delivery partners," Amazon so you build a delivery system with incentives to not deliver packages, then fire those with the temerity to game the system.

mikeash 8y ago
We expect people to follow the law even when breaking it would profit them. Do we criticize stores for building a business with incentives for taking stuff without paying, then prosecuting people who take advantage of that?
- lsh 8y ago
  We've built systems to fleece the sick and dying and put children into prisons, why the hell not?
  - CryptoPunk 8y ago
    You're being overly critical of society, and failing to consider the nuance in all of these policies. What's the alternative to allowing healthcare providers to sell their product/services to the dying? Throw anyone who does in prison? But then you're criminalizing consensual interactions. Force other people to pay for the medical care of the dying? Then you're throwing people who refuse to care for people they have no moral responsibility for in prison. Maybe you think the latter is the answer, but it's not an easy thing to justify, especially for those who reject your ideological presuppositions. And what do you do with children of people entering the country illegally? Release them to their parents, and let their parents go home without punishment? Maybe that's what you prefer. But there are major trade-offs from having such a policy, in losing the ability to disincentivize illegal immigration, so it's not obvious it's the right stance. It's easy to criticize society when you don't have a better alternate solution to difficult problems. You're mistaken if you think throwing your arms in the air and saying "to hell with it", and contributing to those problems, by justifying theft of property, won't make things worse. It will. The only constructive way forward is to do the right thing in every situation, and clearly the right thing is not to violate the trust your client/employer put in you and steal a package. Making excuses for this behaviour only encourages more people to go down this destructive path in life.

ahakki 8y ago

> Johnson admitted to taking bait package, claiming he did it because Amazon has an incentive program that pays drivers $5 for each undelivered package they return. Like paying for rat tails.

X6S1x6Okd1st 8y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect
- MrMorden 8y ago
  http://windupstories.com/books/pump-six-and-other-stories/the-tamarisk-hunter/ http://windupstories.com/books/pump-six-and-other-stories/th...

univerio 8y ago

> [...] he did it because Amazon has an incentive program that pays drivers $5 for each undelivered package they return. Not sure I understand the program and how it benefits Amazon in any way.

gkoberger 8y ago
To avoid people thinking "meh, they aren't answering, I'm just gonna toss it in the garbage". Since these are contractors driving their own cars, they don't "return to Amazon" at the end of the day. So, basically, Amazon is just compensating people for the drive back to the warehouse that they only have to do if they have packages leftover. (Remember that this article is quoting an arrested man; I think there's a good chance what he's saying is a lie. He's probably just stealing packages.)
- tlrobinson 8y ago
  I still don't get it. Why do they need an incentive to not toss it in the garbage?
  - taborj 8y ago
    Because a non-zero number of the drivers are scum?
  - gkoberger 8y ago
    I did a bit of research, and found a bunch of people saying they just leave undelivered packages in their cars because they don't have time (desire?) to drive back to the warehouse 10-15 minutes away. I also couldn't find anything about anyone getting paid, so either the arrested guy was lying or it's something new they're trying? But if it's true, I'd say it's less of an incentive, and more of Amazon just compensating people who end up having to do more work. https://www.reddit.com/r/AmazonFlexDrivers/comments/70m0gy/not_getting_paid_for_the_time_it_takes_to_return/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AmazonFlexDrivers/comments/70m0gy/n... https://www.reddit.com/r/AmazonFlexDrivers/comments/8f112d/whats_the_correct_way_to_return_a_package_that/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AmazonFlexDrivers/comments/8f112d/w...

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

djsumdog 8y ago

No prior records. ... This sucks. His ability to get work will be greatly diminished because he thought he could game some poorly structured Amazon system. I mean, I know it's still his fault. Still, I wish people would take time to think about these kinds of decisions though.

wowzap 8y ago
I hope railroading this guy assures that none of my amazon packages are ever stolen in this kind of scheme again. I don't feel bad for him whatsoever. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
- RodericDay 8y ago
  It's funny how bloodthirsty people are when it comes to someone being ultra-punished stealing a consumer product, but I bet when people talk about wage theft and capitalist malfeasance this guy turns into a corporate lawyer.
  - mynameisvlad 8y ago
    I mean, the two scenarios are completely different. Yes, they both suck, but it's almost impossible to compare stealing physical property one owns and "stealing" the potential difference in wage between two individuals.
    - RodericDay 8y ago
      ...that's not what wage theft is
- scrollaway 8y ago
  (Replying to the dead comment) People are bloodthirsty because stealing packages is so much more personal than, say, shoplifting. The mail is personal. The shit you get shipped is personal. Especially around christmas. "Who the fuck steals the gift for my nana?" And it's like, people don't usually even know what they're stealing. There's a damage&reward imbalance between the person who loses something of great potential sentimental value (it's not always amazon packages, sometimes it's stuff people send each other), just so that some petty thief has a shot at having something they care about / can make a profit on. I'm with everyone else on this, fuck people who steal packages. Those and bike thieves.

dawnerd 8y ago

This happened a couple blocks from me. There's been a ton of packages going missing around here. Luckily I live on a small off street that doesn't really attract criminals. Also should add, I've had pretty bad luck with amazons hired drivers actually delivering packages on time or at all. When I lived in the city they'd often call me up asking me to meet them down on the street since they couldn't figure out how an apartment building worked.

nightfly 8y ago
I'm off Millikan and Amazons direct couriers have been an order of magnitude more reliable than my UPS driver (who doesn't follow my delivery preferences and takes my stuff to random UPS stores that I have to pick it up from).
- Sohcahtoa82 8y ago
  I live about a mile west from the Nike campus. I have Amazon deliver packages to the locker at the Plaid Pantry on Murray and Walker. Never a misdelivery, never a stolen package. And I drive right by it as I drive home from my daily commute, so it's super convenient.
- dawnerd 8y ago
  Thats good to hear. Fedex is the one here that is really unreliable. I work from home and my office faces the street. I'll have the blinds open and the driver will still try to sneak up and leave a delivery attempted note.
  - Kadin 8y ago
    So does anyone know why delivery drivers do that? Is there some sort of perverse incentive to leaving a delivery note versus actually delivering the package? I can kinda get the incentive (saving time) on signature-required packages, since it's faster to slap a label on the door than wait for someone to answer and sign for the thing. But why do they do it on non-signature packages? It makes no sense.

chihuahua 8y ago

I've started having Amazon packages delivered to Amazon's package lockers. For example, at 7-eleven stores and Safeway stores. I've also had Newegg packages delivered to Walgreen stores. Bit of a hassle to go there for pickup, but better than having expensive things stolen.

gruez 8y ago
>Bit of a hassle to go there for pickup, but better than having expensive things stolen afaik you're not liable if that happens (Amazon will send another for free), so why should you care?
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  > so why should you care? Because you don't have the item you ordered until a second is sent?
- SamReidHughes 8y ago
  Because some thief is getting away with it.
  - masonic 8y ago
    ... and now associates your name and address with items of value to be had.
- chihuahua 8y ago
  I was under the impression that because I've told UPS that they can leave packages without requiring a signature, I'm liable for packages that disappear. But I'm not sure - I have never had a package stolen, so I don't know what would happen

patientplatypus 8y ago

The law, in its infinite magnanimity, forbids the rich and poor alike from stealing bread, sleeping under bridges, and loitering. Considering the demographic of the people who read Hacker News I would be willing to bet that most of you have never seriously considered having to steal to get by.

donatj 8y ago
Comparing stealing a package to stealing bread is silly.

joefourier 8y ago

Why is it standard practice in the US to leave undelivered packages on the porch of people's homes? With the reports of stolen packages and Amazon having to put dummy packages to catch thieves, as a non-American I'm struggling to understand why they don't just put them back in the truck and let you arrange a later delivery or pick-up at the closest parcel centre.

ctulek 8y ago
I don't think it is standard practice but depends on neighborhood. Trying to re-deliver a package should be more costly than covering the cost of lost package when the crime rate is low.
benjaminl 8y ago
Because in much of the country it is incredibly rare to have a package stolen off of a porch. For example I have never had a package stolen nor do I know of a person who has had a package stolen off of their porch. The person sending the package can choose if the package is left at the door or if it requires a signature. Amazon and others like them have decided that the increased convenience is worth the occasional cost of reshooting a package.
- dboreham 8y ago
  I know of two separate cases of package theft so...ymmv.
mdasen 8y ago
Ultimately, if I'm not home on Monday between 9am and 5pm, I'm not going to be home on Tuesday between 9am and 5pm. That might sound like a simplistic answer, but I want my package and I don't want to have to pick it up at the service center or stay home to wait for it. I also think that package theft is reasonably rare - to the point that retailers are willing to put up with it and just re-ship the packages. I live in a major city and in a decade I've never had one package be taken (at 5 addresses in different neighborhoods). Personally, I wouldn't want them to attempt re-delivery for days and then tell me to come to their service center to pick it up. Companies like UPS and Amazon also have options if you're worried about theft. UPS can leave it at lots of convenience stores for pickup. Amazon has their lockers all over the place. Still, given that I've never had a single package stolen including shipments of laptops and such, I don't really want to have to travel to pick up my package.

tareqak 8y ago

What would happen if I noticed a package not addressed to me on my porch, and I: 1) Took it inside? 2) Took it inside and called USPS/FedEx/UPS depending on the shipping label? 3) Took it into my car, and drove to a USPS/FedEx/UPS office depending on the label? To add, I appreciate that there are efforts behind solving this problem. I'm living in an apartment, and I've had to deal with missing packages as well. I'd personally rather have legitimate packages have trackers, and then return or drop-off the tracker once I receive the package successfully. I understand the price would be high given the scale of my ask.

sparky_z 8y ago
Not sure what you're getting at. Are you suggesting that the police would leave bait packages at random houses without the informed consent of the occupants? And then arrest them if they picked them up? That would be nuts, but there's no suggestion of anything like that in the article.
- tareqak 8y ago
  You could have informed consent of some of the occupants and not all e.g. tenants, roommates. I also assume they have informed consent, but there was no explicit mention of this consent in the article.
function_seven 8y ago
You live there. You're allowed to remove items from your own porch. I think the scenarios would be: 1) Cops show up and and say, "Hey, that was a bait package. Can we get it back?" 2) Same as 1), plus USPS/FedEx/UPS would be unable to locate the tracking number. 3) Cops pull you over, thinking you're a porch pirate. You tell them where you live, and they regret the error, and ask for their bait package back. (But these scenarios probably wouldn't happen in the first place. I assume that the chosen bait locations were done with the knowledge of the residents.)
- xkcd-sucks 8y ago
  4) Cops arrest and charge you with theft over $10000 (the tracker is overpriced), interfering with an investigation, and resisting arrest. You make a deal and plead guilty to resisting arrest in exchange for having the other charges dropped.

advisedwang 8y ago

What does Amazon do with packages returned like this one was about to be? Presumably delivery is re-tried or the user refunded... in which case stopping this behaviour isn't actually preventing any thefts, just adding delays.

patio11 8y ago

It seems like HNers are quite willing to believe that Amazon factually has the "We'll pay a non-employee contractor a bonus to move without authorization onto private property to take a package they don't have any documentation for and reintroduce it into our logistics system at some arbitrary point in the future" policy. This... is an unlikely policy for Amazon to have.

munk-a 8y ago
It may be indeed, but the article gives no indication that this isn't a policy Amazon has after giving a vague indication that it might be. HNers are reading a news story as clearly as it was written. (to contrast, the other option is that HNers would make logical assumptions and making logical assumptions is quite illogical when it comes to how large corporations interact with sub-contractors)
- mikeash 8y ago
  However, the story is quite clear that this is a claim made by the accused thief, and not independently verified in any way. When an accused criminal gives a stupid-sounding justification for why he committed the crime, maybe don’t believe him.
  - tempestn 8y ago
    I would argue that the author should have made some attempt to independently verify the claim, or if unable to confirm or deny, at least include a line to that effect.
  - marcosdumay 8y ago
    When somebody (whoever may be) claims something very unlikely the confidence people have on it being true has no other way to go but up. And people react to that change by talking. It's a bad cycle where absurd stuff (like "the Earth is plane") gets normalized by people repeating their surprised reactions. But there's no reason to think we are seeing anything besides people coping with an idea they will conclude is baseless.

drivertoss 8y ago

I used to drive for an Amazon contractor earlier this year and I can tell you from experience that most package theft isn't coming from situations like this, but instead packages that are actually a part of a driver's route Usually each delivery contractor has a set delivery area because of this it's extremely obvious when you're given a bait package because it's usually got an address that's very much out of your way. Or the package will look really beat up. Most of the time it's the former in these cases. Where I saw the most theft happen was packages that had an address that couldn't be found, clearly marked items (ex. toilet paper in a branded box), or a driver genuinely misplaces a package inside the van so they mark it missing only to find it later in the day. Now you might ask: why not just bring a package back if there's a legitimate issue with it's delivery? You'll be marked down. So it's easier in many cases to simply rip off the label and abandon it or take it for yourself and hope you've been given something valuable. Most of these guys are in rough situations, are under extreme pressure to perform (200 + deliveries in a day), and often aren't given benefts or a stable schedule. Turnover is extremely high, employee theft is absolutely rampant, and frankly it seems like Amazon never cared so long as there was a certain threshold of delivered packages for the day. Sure when you are claiming multiple packages per week are on your manifest but not present in your van things get suspicious, but of course all they do is send you an extremely obvious bait package that you'll end up returning unless you're just stupid. Many of these drivers aren't lasting more than a year and almost all of them are gaming the system through the method I listed above so there's no reprecussion for doing the wrong thing and in most cases doing the right thing gets you a thank you coupled with a black mark on your record. I've seen easily over 10k worth of theft in my first few months I really do wonder how Amazon manages to stay in business.

ElijahLynn 8y ago

So we have some Amazon drivers stealing Amazon packages now? Seems like in 5 years this won't be an issue anymore, not sure how yet, but seems like it will be solved.

gesman 8y ago

Amazon giveth, Amazon taketh away...

baoha 8y ago

This happened to my friend last year, her security camera captured the whole thing: driver dropped off the package, took a picture as proof of delivery, then picked up the package. She didn't report to the police in fear of retaliation.

__david__ 8y ago
Fear that the driver would retaliate? I mean, if it's a driver I'd report it right to Amazon. They'd probably care more than the police.

heyjudy 8y ago

Glitter bomb and fart spray bait packages with integrated 360° cameras should be sold on Kickstarter and then Amazon. Search also: Youtube

sandworm101 8y ago

Downvote if you want, but I have real sympathy for these crooks. This leaving of valuables on our front porches is a new thing. If I were shopping at a mall, and left my purchases on the roof of my car, I would not expect them to remain there hours later. Theft is illegal but for centuries we at least made it difficult. We didn't rely on the law as the only deterrent. Leaving valuables on your front porch while you are at work is like walking out into a crosswalk and just assuming that all the cars will stop for you. Arrest the thieves. Punish them as the law deems necessary. But do not demonize them. These glitter bombs and GPS devices are sad. These are non-violent property crimes. Cops have far more important things to do than protect your right to leave your new iPhone in public view all day. Pay for proper delivery. Take the time to pick it up at a dropoff location. Have it sent to a neighbor who is home during the day. That's far easier than playing pathetic pranks on pathetic criminals.

ben174 8y ago
Well stated point. I disagree with you but will certainly not downvote you.
- sandworm101 8y ago
  I guess as a former attorney I see the slippery slope here, the history. Once upon a time there was a guy who hung out on the NYC subway. He had nice cloths and a fancy watch. He was the bait. With a revolver in his pocket he was also the hunter. He found what he was looking for. These bait boxes are a step towards that guy on the subway. They aren't exactly entrapment or vigilantism, but nevertheless aren't ethical behavior. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_New_York_City_Subway_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_New_York_City_Subway_shoo...
  - Dylan16807 8y ago
    > aren't exactly entrapment Are you saying that dressing nice is approaching entrapment? I can think of some similar arguments... I could see an entrapment angle for something that appears to be abandoned property. Not for something that has very clear ownership, where you can expect that the owner is going to come for it in the near future.

flexer2 8y ago

I have delivered thousands of packages through the Amazon Flex program; I am quite well-versed in their policies. There is no such incentive policy to return undeliverable packages as he claims. If you are out making deliveries, and you can’t deliver a package for whatever reason, you mark it as undeliverable in the app and return it to the station after your route is complete. That’s just part of the gig. It sucks because you might have to go out of your way to bring back the packages to the station (using your own gas and time), so the real incentive is to deliver the package, even if it’s risky. This guy is just a lying thief. There is no such program. Edit: I should add that Amazon keeps track of your delivery metrics, including the percent that are undelivered/late/reported missing (DNR, did not receive)/etc. If you drop below some threshold you get kicked off the app. You get a weekly email with a summary of your stats. I think I had a couple DNRs out of the thousands of things I delivered, and was paranoid they were going to kick me off for them.

chrissnell 8y ago
Does Amazon still use OnTrac? I had countless delivery issues with OnTrac when I lived in Tacoma, WA. I'm not even kidding when I say that 50% of the packages never made it and another 20% made it many days after their online status said that they were "delivered". It was truly the shittiest package delivery system I've ever seen. It wouldn't surprise me at all if this guy worked for OnTrac and that OnTrac did have some kind of incentive which encouraged this. I would have had more reliable delivery if Amazon simply gave the packages to a meth head on a BMX bike.
- flexer2 8y ago
  They still use them although where I live it just seems to be for larger packages. Most stuff is delivered to me by Flex drivers now. I agree, though, they are the absolute worst. This guy was probably just a Flex driver. I’ve had bad experiences with them, too, but OnTrac is much worse.
- llama052 8y ago
  OnTrac is the worst, in Palo Alto the Ontrac guys would drop off every single package they had from Amazon at our Apartment Leasing office after they were closed, so you'd often find 5+ packages sitting on the doorfront in the evening, instead of delivering the packages to the apartment locations (which are clearly labeled and very public) Now in Oregon I ordered winter tires, Ontrac marked them delivered on the delivery date but never actually dropped them off, later and they decided to deliver 4 days later once I complained to the Shipper. It's all anecdotal but the moment I see anything delivered by Ontrac I just assume it has a 50/50 chance of being actually delivered.