15 ms·

I just told this story on HN, but my car window was smashed on 10/13/18 and the theives got my wallet and house keys. They used my credit card at foot locker (

I just told this story on HN, but my car window was smashed on 10/13/18 and the theives got my wallet and house keys. They used my credit card at foot locker (~$500), The Store Manager confirmed two guys made the purchase and corporate said they would turn over the video if police just ask. A month later the bank fraud dept informed me someone was trying to cash a fake check ($1,600) against my account at an ATM using my ID (stolen from the car) and they ATM video shows the guy and the would turn it over to police if they requested it. I even emailed the detective with chain and all he had to do was reply all, but the detective refuses (“we don’t look into these things”). Meanwhile these people have my address and key (even though I rekeyed) they may be lurking and try to come in, and I should be entitled to know what these people look like. I was attacked on HN for suggesting this but I’ll suggest it again, since the author of this post already had video of these theives, there needs to be a platform to post these videos for the public to crowdsource the identity of these people. I know there are not police resources to pursue every amazon purchase, but in my case it was grand theft and it’s ongoing, and likely to escalate, but the police are unwilling to do anything to help (but be damn sure they’d look into it if they were the victims).

weaksauce 8y ago
Are there other agencies you can contact?
alunchbox 8y ago
That's really interesting in regards to the police behaviour perhaps it's the areas you're located in? (I'm located close to Toronto) I've had a similar experience to yours, having my back window smashed out and wallet stolen. luckily we have camera's for our property and were able to get a license # and had our own footage to provide the police with. I wonder if that's why it was taken more seriously. In your shoes I would tell the police you are being targeted & feel unsafe. that might trigger a better response which isn't entirely untrue. It's not like these people are oversea's they are in your city.
iamdave 8y ago
there needs to be a platform to post these videos for the public to crowdsource the identity of these people. And then what? Will the platform also have a portal that will let people en masse vex the local PD with messages containing links to the video until the precinct assigns an officer to the case? What happens next? Is there going to be a timer or some kind of SLA on the platform that notifies people in the crowd "Sergeant Jones still hasn't found the bastard who stole from the Smith family down on the corner"? Crowdsourcing criminal investigation, even a passive element of it like identifying mugs from home security footage seems like a rabbit hole I'm not sure we're prepared to go down (it also scares the bajeezus out of me because the general population, sorry to say this, aren't the rational actors I want involved in trying to identify perps so casually through 'platforms').
- blueboo 8y ago
  If we as a society are OK with qualified law enforcement looking the other way, then we're OK with passing the buck to the unqualified. Yes, it's a "rabbit hole [we're] not sure we're prepared to go down". We're not prepared. We're going down it
  - fladrif 8y ago
    I don't think the correct takeaway is that we're OK with law enforcement looking the other way. Clearly that is the best route to solve this issue, and we need more oversight into why certain cases are handled in this way and why. What is the priority of law enforcement, and where is the time allocation for case follow-up.
    - blueboo 8y ago
      I agree with your principals, but I think that since people aren't spending political capital to change it, we're giving tacit approval -- however begrudging, however wrong-in-our-heart-of-hearts-we-think-it-is
  - iamdave 8y ago
    If we as a society are OK with qualified law enforcement looking the other way, then we're OK with passing the buck to the unqualified. Post hoc ergo propter hoc make for valid public policy it does not. What source do you point to that we as a society are OK with qualified law enforcement looking the other way?
zanny 8y ago
The worst part is there is really nothing a normal person can do in a situation like this. You would end up paying substantially more to hire a lawyer to hound the police or pursue the investigation independently, and even if you brought the thieves to justice you would never recoup your costs. I'm not smart enough to come up with solutions but there has to be something better than police unaccountable to anyone without excessive amounts of capital to effectively waste.
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  >even if you brought the thieves to justice you would never recoup your costs. // Assuming the video in OP is genuine the thieves, IIRC, are pretty well off. They certainly have assets that could be forfeit -- nice cars, comfy furniture, smartphones, etc.. These people don't appear to be stealing through necessity.
  - nickpsecurity 8y ago
    Exactly. Small claims court at a minimum. They might even get a summary judgement if they have person's face, voice, address, bedroom, and so on to point identification is solid. Two of these were straight-up in their house with pictures of what's in it. Realistically, present the stuff to the judge who might order police to collect remaining evidence. From there, they can be arrested, sued, stuff seized, or whatever. Lots of possibilities. Don't even need a lawyer if going into small, claims court with video from something they stole. Only thing that concerned me was the confetti and fart bomb possibly counting as battery, booby traps, or whatever. I'd probably just set it to record and track even though other stuff was hilarious.
    - zanny 8y ago
      The original posts problem wasn't a matter of "taking the thief to court" it was getting the police to actually find out who it was. You need someone to id them, but OP couldn't even get the video released to him so who knows if a lawyer or private investigator could get it.
- 8y ago
pasbesoin 8y ago
I was burgled some years ago. The officers who responded, when I got home and found this, were attentive. The detective subsequently assigned the case? Not much. Even though, in warning my neighbors, I discovered that there was then a rash of burglaries occurring in the neighborhood. In part, I understood this. While the personal loss was significant to me, the dollar amount was only a few thousands that insurance covered. Nobody was hurt. No guns were stolen. In fact, those were two of the first questions I was asked: "Do you have any guns?", and "Were there any company files on the laptop?" On the other hand, a couple of days later, I found that a piece of paper left on the floor held a perfect if light image in dirt of a sneaker sole that did not match my shoes and I was pretty sure did not match the patrolmens' footwear. So I called the detective and left a message, and followed up once. He didn't even bother to respond. I mention this, because people should understand, to the extent they don't already: Police "triage" their cases. And for many of those cases, it doesn't matter that a crime was committed. They are putting their time, energy, and political capital towards other things. (They have their own workplaces to deal with, including reciprocity and the need to build their careers. Whether or not you agree with the system (as an insider or an outsider seeking services), it's how things work.) P.S. That sucks, Will. I can relate to how frustrating that must be. And in my case, a bit more attention might have meant less people ultimately burgled.
- WrtCdEvrydy 8y ago
  "Do you have any guns?" Not anymore, they just robbed me! "Were there any company files on the laptop?" I don't know, it's fucking gone!
- jstarfish 8y ago
  They're also more interested in resolution if controlled substances were stolen during the theft.
- userbinator 8y ago
  "Do you have any guns?" This reminds me of the "hack" I've seen posted here before about preventing the TSA from going through your luggage --- pack it with a gun.
jakelarkin 8y ago
it's a non-violent crime of opportunity. police time is $150/hour at least. all your loses seem to be covered by the banks, aside from the car window, which um happens to people all the time. its the kind of thing they pursue occasionally in realtime or with a sting, but not each individual case. change your key, open a new checking account & close old, lock your credit. and that ends your exposure. you won't get the video footage because it creates a legal liability for the owners to release it. EDIT I'm all for broken windows but thats still implemented as a sampling approach. They don't actually pursue every low-level crime.
- phyller 8y ago
  The problem with this point of view, is it's the same people doing this over and over, just causing distress everywhere. For a couple hundred dollars of theft they cause both the loss of the item, but also all sorts of other trouble for everyone else. And the corporation's costs do eventually make it to the consumer as higher prices due to higher cost of doing business. In addition, it is a drain on all of us that we have to take steps to protect ourselves. It's worth the $150/hour to keep this kind of behavior to a minimum.
- jacquesm 8y ago
  Police and profitability should not be mixed. Whether it costs $50 or $500 / hour to work on a case technically should not even be an issue. The cumulative effect of a lot of small-time crime on a society can be as large as a bank robbery, even if the robbery is a much more serious crime by itself.
  - bphogan 8y ago
    But it is an issue because it's tax dollars, and people don't like paying taxes.
    - jon889 8y ago
      People wouldn’t mind paying taxes as much if they knew where it was going, instead of it going into a black box and no one really sure if it all makes it out to the needed services.
dalore 8y ago
I guess wouldn't you file suit against the police as they are now responsible?
- freehunter 8y ago
  The Supreme Court has ruled that the police have no responsibility to protect citizens [1]. You cannot sue the police for failing to respond because they legally don't have to respond. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-po...
  - Falling3 8y ago
    Such an important case that most people have no idea about.
  - rapind 8y ago
    Um what?!? That's astounding.
  - userbinator 8y ago
    the police have no responsibility to protect citizens Then... what the hell are they for?!?! That is utterly insane.
    - nickpsecurity 8y ago
      To enforce the law based on the people in charges' priorities. That could be stuff that helps you or hurts you. Then, we maybe reduce the bad of that with Congress and courts. Just how it works. It's how it always worked. The "Protect and Serve" is just marketing. There's definitely plenty of cops that are about that, though. Even some that don't care will risk their lives protecting people because it's part of their job enforcing the law as their supervisors or police chiefs order them. It's all pretty complicated. In pro-gun areas, we are already operating with this assumption, though. That ruling just reinforced what many of us already believed and sometimes experienced. Each American is responsible for their own safety before anything or anyone else helps them. Each living person is responsible for deciding their own risk avoidance or tolerance in their various systems since there's no guarantee the system can protect them without their own action. It's up to use first and foremost.
giarc 8y ago
Somewhat related but Ring has a Neighbors app where you can share video with other users in your area (or request video from certain times). The site is not working for some reason (https://ring.com/neighbors https://ring.com/neighbors) but it stirred a bit of controversy when launched. This sort of gets at your idea of a platform to identify people.
withdavidli 8y ago
This can go horribly wrong quickly. How do you deal with the public going after the wrong people? Does the poster take responsibility for all harm done? This is what Reddit tried to do with the Boston bombing. How do you handle deep fakes?
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  How do you deal with the police going after the wrong people?
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > How do you deal with the police going after the wrong people? You prohibit the police from making warrantless arrests for misdemeanors that did not occur in their presence, so they no longer have the power to do that in most cases. Which is one reason for the lack of action that this vigilante system is proposed to remedy, so, again, how do you deal with the public going after the wrong people?
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - jstarfish 8y ago
    While injustices do happen, the police are more accountable than an internet mob stalking your family and harassing your employer because you were incorrectly identified as a mail thief in a public and permanent forum.
  - tripzilch 8y ago
    Badly.
Clanan 8y ago
I'm sorry you're going through this, but I think it's prudent to consider the converse of the situation you're desiring. What if CrowsourcedCriminalMugs.com did exist, and your face was erroneously added to it? Isn't this whole idea just a form of high-tech mob justice?
- jon889 8y ago
  This is basically the point of the police, imagine this crowdsourcing thing did exist, but instead of everyone being able to see it only a select number of people who had been trained how to capture people and bring them to the courts without harming them could see it and respond. And they got paid to do this by everyone in the local area paying some money for them to do it. That’s what the police should be.
  - manigandham 8y ago
    That's not the police, that's a paid private militia to round up people you "identify", with no accountability. Do you not see how that can go wrong?
    - jon889 8y ago
      The “people in the local area paying money” is tax. And from what I hear of US police, there doesn’t seem to be much accountability, certainly nothing like in the UK.
- tripzilch 8y ago
  You pay a fee to have it removed, of course (sites like this already exist). What could possibly go wrong.
rdtsc 8y ago
I completely understand. My car has been broken into multiple times. Thieves stole my wife's credit card and went on a shopping spree. The store had footage but the police refused to do anything. It could be worse course, but it's very disappointing when this happens. Not sure what your options are - move to a relatively wealthy suburb probably with a well funded police department where they might not be lazy enough to investigate? This is how neighborhoods "go downhill" as they say. Car break-ins were a major decision for us to move out that town.
- nwsm 8y ago
  Why do police refuse to look into it? More important cases? Not as easy to find them guilty as it seems?
  - mdpopescu 8y ago
    They're rational. If they look into it, they have to actually work. If they don't, there is zero disadvantage for them. Why WOULD they look into it?
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - airstrike 8y ago
      Because of accountability. If enough people start complaining, this becomes an issue to politicians. But there aren't enough people complaining.
      - mdpopescu 8y ago
        Petitioning nobility to please do their damn job has not generally been a successful endeavor.
  - fiatjaf 8y ago
    Cases? Do you think police is like in the movies? Policeman just wanna get home to their shower and dinner.
trhway 8y ago
>there needs to be a platform to post these videos for the public to crowdsource the identity of these people. so, the chances of my package being stolen and my car being broken into vs. the chances of being publicly misidentified as a package/car thief. Loss of $10-$10000 vs. ruined life. I'll definitely take the former.
aaron695 8y ago
> there needs to be a platform to post these videos for the public to crowdsource the identity of these people. Then some moronic crowd mistakes someone and the new victim you've created (or new victims family) rightfully sues you and you lose your house? And under your rules what allows someone to post, could I post the details of someone who's post I disagree with on HN? And true ethics, a mob justice site will get someone disproportionately hurt. Criminals are humans beings. If you met the people doing what they are doing to you and listened to their story, there's a good chance you wouldn't want a baseball bat taken to them. Being a thief is hard, most people do it becasue they have pretty hard lives, lives that would make you cry. I'm not saying let them go, but I'd prefer a site that perhaps shames governments instead for not getting trained professionals to sort these issues out.
khazhou 8y ago
Hopefully you don't keep your wallet and keys in your car anymore! If thieves broke into my car, they'd get some old CDs, leather gloves, and a skateboard I have no emotional attachment to. Seriously people: your car is not secure storage.
- web007 8y ago
  Other than the particular crime, please explain how your statement is different from "If you didn't dress so provocatively, you wouldn't have been raped."
  - nicwolff 8y ago
    If you think "wallet ∶ car ∷ woman's body ∶ dress" is a valid analogy we can't help you pal.
  - bena 8y ago
    Because it's not about tempting the thieves, it's about accepting the fact that thieves exist. It's about risk mitigation. He didn't say "Hide your stuff better", he said "Don't treat your car like secure storage".
  - tzs 8y ago
    His statement was prospective. Your quote is retrospective. Same reason it is OK to tell people that avoiding smoking reduces their chances of getting lung cancer or that wearing a condom reduces their change of STDs, but it is not OK to tell someone with lung cancer that it is their fault for smoking or to tell someone with an STD that it is their fault for not wearing a condom.
  - khazhou 8y ago
    Telling someone to "not dress provocatively" harms their identity and right to self-expression. It devalues them as a independent human being, reducing them to perpetual victimhood. The crime against which it "protects" is heinous and life-altering and, sadly, our culture still has a somewhat permissive attitude towards it in some situations (e.g., on college campuses). If anyone's right to identity and self-expression is exemplified by keeping wallet and keys in their car, then, yes, I suppose they should certainly assert their rights by keeping valuables in their car!
joering2 8y ago
Meanwhile today Trump did 180 on his promise to save Second Amendment, and bump stocks got banned. Next will be any gun with more than nine round. Next... well you get it. I know I don't come with much help (but been there before - had $3,000 stolen from my car and cops couldn't care), it even more important for you to vote in 2020 ! Your vote is frankly the best deterrent that you have!
cr0sh 8y ago
Not that it would have helped in your case, but we've had porch pirates in my neighborhood. We had a recent one steal some packages. I found out about it on Nextdoor. I wasn't affected by it (I have my packages delivered to my work), but I watched the thread with interest. The neighbors had cameras - they got good pictures of the vehicle, the woman who stole the packages, etc. Multiple neighbors did this, coordinating via Nextdoor. Our community resource officer of our local PD station was also notified about this. One even saw the car, followed her in her own vehicle, and got a license plate number, and called the police. The woman was arrested and everyone who had packages stolen by her gave the police their pictures or videos to help. The case is still on-going; this only happened last week. I have no doubt that if something like you describe doesn't exist, that someone can or will make it. What would be nice would be if the site also added similar "glitter bomb" kits (maybe simplified in some manner to make them less expensive) to upload for entertainment, and to help catch the thieves. These people have no shame, and seemingly no sense or care that they are being watched. Everyone with a camera had signs saying they were filming 24/7 with security cams, but that didn't seem to matter.
- will_brown 8y ago
  That’s fantastic. My very rough ideas are definitely more along the lines of identification and not vigilanteeism...However I am with you 100% and am pro glitter bomb.
  - nkrisc 8y ago
    I think even just the sink bomb part that instantly emptied as soon as it was opened would have the same effect. It's probably easier to build and could all be done mechanically. You can get some pretty foul stink bombs, then triple it. If it made their car unsellable out their house miserable I'd call that a success and no one got hurt.
    - briffle 8y ago
      They have artificial cadaver scent for training police dogs. It might work well. https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/analytical-chromatography/analytical-products.html?TablePage=9620039 https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/analytical-chromatography/analy...
konschubert 8y ago
The solution is to make sure that the police starts giving a damn. Why are they allowed to have a policy like this? They should be properly funded and staffed, and then they should start doing their damn homework.
prdonahue 8y ago
Would have gone to a news outlet to try to get them to pick up the story. Someone will write it, will put pressure on the department, and you'll get your video.
MagicPropmaker 8y ago
You can get the business to hand over their records by suing "John Doe" in court, getting a judgement, and then getting a subpoena. The banks losses aren't yours but you can sue for your uninsured damages. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doe_subpoena https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doe_subpoena Call an attorney!
- unreal37 8y ago
  He is an attorney...
  - undersuit 8y ago
    Allegedly.
thedogeye 8y ago
I own Offasir.com and will lease it free of cost to anyone operating this business.
manigandham 8y ago
It's a bad idea because there are countless examples of the internet mob identifying the wrong people, destroying innocent lives, and creating dangerous situations through a lack of training, oversight, and accountability. Good intentions alone do not lead to good results. Law and justice are very complicated and have a massive impact on lives and society which is why we entrust a few authorized members to carry out enforcement. That doesn't mean we don't have problems with bad police, lack of resources, or politics - but the solution is to fix those areas, not crowdsource criminal justice.
jgrowl 8y ago
Have you tried escalating the complaint? The 'let me talk to the manager approach.' Try to mail, call, meet in person anyone on the city council, police commissioner, etc. Tell them your situation and demand to know why no action is being taken. It still may not work, but it may be worth a shot. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
- shard972 8y ago
  I'm not the OP, but anytime ive tried this with the police it doesn't usually end up beneficial. The best response you might get is go see a judge who will tell you they don't care.
55555 8y ago
A website is a fine idea but I'm not sure you need it. Just get the footage and make a post on Facebook. If it goes viral in your area, they may be identified by PM.
sneak 8y ago
A roommate once stole $30,000 from me while I was out of town. The police were disinterested in helping despite written records of him admitting to the crime, until I pulled strings internally and got detectives assigned to the case. The police in the USA of course have no legal obligation to investigate or protect, contrary to popular understanding. Sovereign/qualified immunity really needs to be scaled back.
lxmorj 8y ago
This sucks and shouldn’t be true, but it is: make this the police’s problem. Make it easier for them to do what you ask than to ignore you or give you platitudes. Call every damn day day. Explain the situation from scratch, in detail. When they say they can’t do anything, ask for a supervisor. Repeat. Do not get upset. Be friendly, but annoy them into submission. They are human. Lazy humans with a very easy out ‘this isn’t the biggest problem I have to deal with today’. Make fixing this a sexy damn option as compared to hearing from you day in and day out. Email them a form letter that they can just sign, that you can give to foot locker and the bank. When they ignore it or say they can’t do it digitally, show up with copies. Every Day Until They Sign. Again - you shouldn’t have to do this. “What about people who don’t have the time for this?!?” Yup, they’re fucked. But you have the time, so you aren’t. It’s a dumb, bullshit game, but it is what it is.
- woolvalley 8y ago
  The problem with this is the police can harass you back in an asymmetrical way that involves you in jail with a record on trumped up charges. If they wont even bother with the most non-controversial of crimes, what makes you think they have the moral gumption to not do that to get rid of an annoyance?
  - lxmorj 8y ago
    Hence the "remain friendly". They need to believe you are just an annoying dude, not think you are trying to win a battle of wills.
- tripzilch 8y ago
  One could even build a public platform to enable and crowdsource bothering the police.
foxyv 8y ago
When did police stop trying to catch robbers? It's usually just a few serial robbers terrorizing a neighborhood. The few times they catch someone they stop like 50% of the crime in the area. I remember one time they did a bait bike program and rounded up a ring that was stealing hundreds of bikes. But they see one little robbery and go meh!
tripzilch 8y ago
> since the author of this post already had video of these theives, there needs to be a platform to post these videos for the public to crowdsource the identity of these people. No, what you need is a functioning police force. Not vigilante justice. Edit: You could also make a public platform where you would crowdsource generating the political pressure to make the police work better, as well as monitoring them for doing their jobs. This has the advantage that the people put in the spotlight have a public function already, and that it's a more democratic process. The main problem I have with your proposal is that it results in the doxxing and witch hunt of people caught on camera and even if mostly effective/just, this will eventually backfire because of the thirst for revenge and spectacle and because we can't have nice things.

weaksauce 8y ago

Are there other agencies you can contact?

alunchbox 8y ago

That's really interesting in regards to the police behaviour perhaps it's the areas you're located in? (I'm located close to Toronto) I've had a similar experience to yours, having my back window smashed out and wallet stolen. luckily we have camera's for our property and were able to get a license # and had our own footage to provide the police with. I wonder if that's why it was taken more seriously. In your shoes I would tell the police you are being targeted & feel unsafe. that might trigger a better response which isn't entirely untrue. It's not like these people are oversea's they are in your city.

iamdave 8y ago

there needs to be a platform to post these videos for the public to crowdsource the identity of these people. And then what? Will the platform also have a portal that will let people en masse vex the local PD with messages containing links to the video until the precinct assigns an officer to the case? What happens next? Is there going to be a timer or some kind of SLA on the platform that notifies people in the crowd "Sergeant Jones still hasn't found the bastard who stole from the Smith family down on the corner"? Crowdsourcing criminal investigation, even a passive element of it like identifying mugs from home security footage seems like a rabbit hole I'm not sure we're prepared to go down (it also scares the bajeezus out of me because the general population, sorry to say this, aren't the rational actors I want involved in trying to identify perps so casually through 'platforms').

blueboo 8y ago
If we as a society are OK with qualified law enforcement looking the other way, then we're OK with passing the buck to the unqualified. Yes, it's a "rabbit hole [we're] not sure we're prepared to go down". We're not prepared. We're going down it
- fladrif 8y ago
  I don't think the correct takeaway is that we're OK with law enforcement looking the other way. Clearly that is the best route to solve this issue, and we need more oversight into why certain cases are handled in this way and why. What is the priority of law enforcement, and where is the time allocation for case follow-up.
  - blueboo 8y ago
    I agree with your principals, but I think that since people aren't spending political capital to change it, we're giving tacit approval -- however begrudging, however wrong-in-our-heart-of-hearts-we-think-it-is
- iamdave 8y ago
  If we as a society are OK with qualified law enforcement looking the other way, then we're OK with passing the buck to the unqualified. Post hoc ergo propter hoc make for valid public policy it does not. What source do you point to that we as a society are OK with qualified law enforcement looking the other way?

zanny 8y ago

The worst part is there is really nothing a normal person can do in a situation like this. You would end up paying substantially more to hire a lawyer to hound the police or pursue the investigation independently, and even if you brought the thieves to justice you would never recoup your costs. I'm not smart enough to come up with solutions but there has to be something better than police unaccountable to anyone without excessive amounts of capital to effectively waste.

pbhjpbhj 8y ago
>even if you brought the thieves to justice you would never recoup your costs. // Assuming the video in OP is genuine the thieves, IIRC, are pretty well off. They certainly have assets that could be forfeit -- nice cars, comfy furniture, smartphones, etc.. These people don't appear to be stealing through necessity.
- nickpsecurity 8y ago
  Exactly. Small claims court at a minimum. They might even get a summary judgement if they have person's face, voice, address, bedroom, and so on to point identification is solid. Two of these were straight-up in their house with pictures of what's in it. Realistically, present the stuff to the judge who might order police to collect remaining evidence. From there, they can be arrested, sued, stuff seized, or whatever. Lots of possibilities. Don't even need a lawyer if going into small, claims court with video from something they stole. Only thing that concerned me was the confetti and fart bomb possibly counting as battery, booby traps, or whatever. I'd probably just set it to record and track even though other stuff was hilarious.
  - zanny 8y ago
    The original posts problem wasn't a matter of "taking the thief to court" it was getting the police to actually find out who it was. You need someone to id them, but OP couldn't even get the video released to him so who knows if a lawyer or private investigator could get it.
8y ago

pasbesoin 8y ago

I was burgled some years ago. The officers who responded, when I got home and found this, were attentive. The detective subsequently assigned the case? Not much. Even though, in warning my neighbors, I discovered that there was then a rash of burglaries occurring in the neighborhood. In part, I understood this. While the personal loss was significant to me, the dollar amount was only a few thousands that insurance covered. Nobody was hurt. No guns were stolen. In fact, those were two of the first questions I was asked: "Do you have any guns?", and "Were there any company files on the laptop?" On the other hand, a couple of days later, I found that a piece of paper left on the floor held a perfect if light image in dirt of a sneaker sole that did not match my shoes and I was pretty sure did not match the patrolmens' footwear. So I called the detective and left a message, and followed up once. He didn't even bother to respond. I mention this, because people should understand, to the extent they don't already: Police "triage" their cases. And for many of those cases, it doesn't matter that a crime was committed. They are putting their time, energy, and political capital towards other things. (They have their own workplaces to deal with, including reciprocity and the need to build their careers. Whether or not you agree with the system (as an insider or an outsider seeking services), it's how things work.) P.S. That sucks, Will. I can relate to how frustrating that must be. And in my case, a bit more attention might have meant less people ultimately burgled.

WrtCdEvrydy 8y ago
"Do you have any guns?" Not anymore, they just robbed me! "Were there any company files on the laptop?" I don't know, it's fucking gone!
jstarfish 8y ago
They're also more interested in resolution if controlled substances were stolen during the theft.
userbinator 8y ago
"Do you have any guns?" This reminds me of the "hack" I've seen posted here before about preventing the TSA from going through your luggage --- pack it with a gun.

jakelarkin 8y ago

it's a non-violent crime of opportunity. police time is $150/hour at least. all your loses seem to be covered by the banks, aside from the car window, which um happens to people all the time. its the kind of thing they pursue occasionally in realtime or with a sting, but not each individual case. change your key, open a new checking account & close old, lock your credit. and that ends your exposure. you won't get the video footage because it creates a legal liability for the owners to release it. EDIT I'm all for broken windows but thats still implemented as a sampling approach. They don't actually pursue every low-level crime.

phyller 8y ago
The problem with this point of view, is it's the same people doing this over and over, just causing distress everywhere. For a couple hundred dollars of theft they cause both the loss of the item, but also all sorts of other trouble for everyone else. And the corporation's costs do eventually make it to the consumer as higher prices due to higher cost of doing business. In addition, it is a drain on all of us that we have to take steps to protect ourselves. It's worth the $150/hour to keep this kind of behavior to a minimum.
jacquesm 8y ago
Police and profitability should not be mixed. Whether it costs $50 or $500 / hour to work on a case technically should not even be an issue. The cumulative effect of a lot of small-time crime on a society can be as large as a bank robbery, even if the robbery is a much more serious crime by itself.
- bphogan 8y ago
  But it is an issue because it's tax dollars, and people don't like paying taxes.
  - jon889 8y ago
    People wouldn’t mind paying taxes as much if they knew where it was going, instead of it going into a black box and no one really sure if it all makes it out to the needed services.

dalore 8y ago

I guess wouldn't you file suit against the police as they are now responsible?

freehunter 8y ago
The Supreme Court has ruled that the police have no responsibility to protect citizens [1]. You cannot sue the police for failing to respond because they legally don't have to respond. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-po...
- Falling3 8y ago
  Such an important case that most people have no idea about.
- rapind 8y ago
  Um what?!? That's astounding.
- userbinator 8y ago
  the police have no responsibility to protect citizens Then... what the hell are they for?!?! That is utterly insane.
  - nickpsecurity 8y ago
    To enforce the law based on the people in charges' priorities. That could be stuff that helps you or hurts you. Then, we maybe reduce the bad of that with Congress and courts. Just how it works. It's how it always worked. The "Protect and Serve" is just marketing. There's definitely plenty of cops that are about that, though. Even some that don't care will risk their lives protecting people because it's part of their job enforcing the law as their supervisors or police chiefs order them. It's all pretty complicated. In pro-gun areas, we are already operating with this assumption, though. That ruling just reinforced what many of us already believed and sometimes experienced. Each American is responsible for their own safety before anything or anyone else helps them. Each living person is responsible for deciding their own risk avoidance or tolerance in their various systems since there's no guarantee the system can protect them without their own action. It's up to use first and foremost.

giarc 8y ago

Somewhat related but Ring has a Neighbors app where you can share video with other users in your area (or request video from certain times). The site is not working for some reason (https://ring.com/neighbors https://ring.com/neighbors) but it stirred a bit of controversy when launched. This sort of gets at your idea of a platform to identify people.

withdavidli 8y ago

This can go horribly wrong quickly. How do you deal with the public going after the wrong people? Does the poster take responsibility for all harm done? This is what Reddit tried to do with the Boston bombing. How do you handle deep fakes?

chrisseaton 8y ago
How do you deal with the police going after the wrong people?
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > How do you deal with the police going after the wrong people? You prohibit the police from making warrantless arrests for misdemeanors that did not occur in their presence, so they no longer have the power to do that in most cases. Which is one reason for the lack of action that this vigilante system is proposed to remedy, so, again, how do you deal with the public going after the wrong people?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- jstarfish 8y ago
  While injustices do happen, the police are more accountable than an internet mob stalking your family and harassing your employer because you were incorrectly identified as a mail thief in a public and permanent forum.
- tripzilch 8y ago
  Badly.

Clanan 8y ago

I'm sorry you're going through this, but I think it's prudent to consider the converse of the situation you're desiring. What if CrowsourcedCriminalMugs.com did exist, and your face was erroneously added to it? Isn't this whole idea just a form of high-tech mob justice?

jon889 8y ago
This is basically the point of the police, imagine this crowdsourcing thing did exist, but instead of everyone being able to see it only a select number of people who had been trained how to capture people and bring them to the courts without harming them could see it and respond. And they got paid to do this by everyone in the local area paying some money for them to do it. That’s what the police should be.
- manigandham 8y ago
  That's not the police, that's a paid private militia to round up people you "identify", with no accountability. Do you not see how that can go wrong?
  - jon889 8y ago
    The “people in the local area paying money” is tax. And from what I hear of US police, there doesn’t seem to be much accountability, certainly nothing like in the UK.
tripzilch 8y ago
You pay a fee to have it removed, of course (sites like this already exist). What could possibly go wrong.

rdtsc 8y ago

I completely understand. My car has been broken into multiple times. Thieves stole my wife's credit card and went on a shopping spree. The store had footage but the police refused to do anything. It could be worse course, but it's very disappointing when this happens. Not sure what your options are - move to a relatively wealthy suburb probably with a well funded police department where they might not be lazy enough to investigate? This is how neighborhoods "go downhill" as they say. Car break-ins were a major decision for us to move out that town.

nwsm 8y ago
Why do police refuse to look into it? More important cases? Not as easy to find them guilty as it seems?
- mdpopescu 8y ago
  They're rational. If they look into it, they have to actually work. If they don't, there is zero disadvantage for them. Why WOULD they look into it?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - airstrike 8y ago
    Because of accountability. If enough people start complaining, this becomes an issue to politicians. But there aren't enough people complaining.
    - mdpopescu 8y ago
      Petitioning nobility to please do their damn job has not generally been a successful endeavor.
- fiatjaf 8y ago
  Cases? Do you think police is like in the movies? Policeman just wanna get home to their shower and dinner.

trhway 8y ago

>there needs to be a platform to post these videos for the public to crowdsource the identity of these people. so, the chances of my package being stolen and my car being broken into vs. the chances of being publicly misidentified as a package/car thief. Loss of $10-$10000 vs. ruined life. I'll definitely take the former.

aaron695 8y ago

> there needs to be a platform to post these videos for the public to crowdsource the identity of these people. Then some moronic crowd mistakes someone and the new victim you've created (or new victims family) rightfully sues you and you lose your house? And under your rules what allows someone to post, could I post the details of someone who's post I disagree with on HN? And true ethics, a mob justice site will get someone disproportionately hurt. Criminals are humans beings. If you met the people doing what they are doing to you and listened to their story, there's a good chance you wouldn't want a baseball bat taken to them. Being a thief is hard, most people do it becasue they have pretty hard lives, lives that would make you cry. I'm not saying let them go, but I'd prefer a site that perhaps shames governments instead for not getting trained professionals to sort these issues out.

khazhou 8y ago

Hopefully you don't keep your wallet and keys in your car anymore! If thieves broke into my car, they'd get some old CDs, leather gloves, and a skateboard I have no emotional attachment to. Seriously people: your car is not secure storage.

web007 8y ago
Other than the particular crime, please explain how your statement is different from "If you didn't dress so provocatively, you wouldn't have been raped."
- nicwolff 8y ago
  If you think "wallet ∶ car ∷ woman's body ∶ dress" is a valid analogy we can't help you pal.
- bena 8y ago
  Because it's not about tempting the thieves, it's about accepting the fact that thieves exist. It's about risk mitigation. He didn't say "Hide your stuff better", he said "Don't treat your car like secure storage".
- tzs 8y ago
  His statement was prospective. Your quote is retrospective. Same reason it is OK to tell people that avoiding smoking reduces their chances of getting lung cancer or that wearing a condom reduces their change of STDs, but it is not OK to tell someone with lung cancer that it is their fault for smoking or to tell someone with an STD that it is their fault for not wearing a condom.
- khazhou 8y ago
  Telling someone to "not dress provocatively" harms their identity and right to self-expression. It devalues them as a independent human being, reducing them to perpetual victimhood. The crime against which it "protects" is heinous and life-altering and, sadly, our culture still has a somewhat permissive attitude towards it in some situations (e.g., on college campuses). If anyone's right to identity and self-expression is exemplified by keeping wallet and keys in their car, then, yes, I suppose they should certainly assert their rights by keeping valuables in their car!

joering2 8y ago

Meanwhile today Trump did 180 on his promise to save Second Amendment, and bump stocks got banned. Next will be any gun with more than nine round. Next... well you get it. I know I don't come with much help (but been there before - had $3,000 stolen from my car and cops couldn't care), it even more important for you to vote in 2020 ! Your vote is frankly the best deterrent that you have!

cr0sh 8y ago

Not that it would have helped in your case, but we've had porch pirates in my neighborhood. We had a recent one steal some packages. I found out about it on Nextdoor. I wasn't affected by it (I have my packages delivered to my work), but I watched the thread with interest. The neighbors had cameras - they got good pictures of the vehicle, the woman who stole the packages, etc. Multiple neighbors did this, coordinating via Nextdoor. Our community resource officer of our local PD station was also notified about this. One even saw the car, followed her in her own vehicle, and got a license plate number, and called the police. The woman was arrested and everyone who had packages stolen by her gave the police their pictures or videos to help. The case is still on-going; this only happened last week. I have no doubt that if something like you describe doesn't exist, that someone can or will make it. What would be nice would be if the site also added similar "glitter bomb" kits (maybe simplified in some manner to make them less expensive) to upload for entertainment, and to help catch the thieves. These people have no shame, and seemingly no sense or care that they are being watched. Everyone with a camera had signs saying they were filming 24/7 with security cams, but that didn't seem to matter.

will_brown 8y ago
That’s fantastic. My very rough ideas are definitely more along the lines of identification and not vigilanteeism...However I am with you 100% and am pro glitter bomb.
- nkrisc 8y ago
  I think even just the sink bomb part that instantly emptied as soon as it was opened would have the same effect. It's probably easier to build and could all be done mechanically. You can get some pretty foul stink bombs, then triple it. If it made their car unsellable out their house miserable I'd call that a success and no one got hurt.
  - briffle 8y ago
    They have artificial cadaver scent for training police dogs. It might work well. https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/analytical-chromatography/analytical-products.html?TablePage=9620039 https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/analytical-chromatography/analy...

konschubert 8y ago

The solution is to make sure that the police starts giving a damn. Why are they allowed to have a policy like this? They should be properly funded and staffed, and then they should start doing their damn homework.

prdonahue 8y ago

Would have gone to a news outlet to try to get them to pick up the story. Someone will write it, will put pressure on the department, and you'll get your video.

MagicPropmaker 8y ago

You can get the business to hand over their records by suing "John Doe" in court, getting a judgement, and then getting a subpoena. The banks losses aren't yours but you can sue for your uninsured damages. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doe_subpoena https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doe_subpoena Call an attorney!

unreal37 8y ago
He is an attorney...
- undersuit 8y ago
  Allegedly.

thedogeye 8y ago

I own Offasir.com and will lease it free of cost to anyone operating this business.

manigandham 8y ago

It's a bad idea because there are countless examples of the internet mob identifying the wrong people, destroying innocent lives, and creating dangerous situations through a lack of training, oversight, and accountability. Good intentions alone do not lead to good results. Law and justice are very complicated and have a massive impact on lives and society which is why we entrust a few authorized members to carry out enforcement. That doesn't mean we don't have problems with bad police, lack of resources, or politics - but the solution is to fix those areas, not crowdsource criminal justice.

jgrowl 8y ago

Have you tried escalating the complaint? The 'let me talk to the manager approach.' Try to mail, call, meet in person anyone on the city council, police commissioner, etc. Tell them your situation and demand to know why no action is being taken. It still may not work, but it may be worth a shot. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

shard972 8y ago
I'm not the OP, but anytime ive tried this with the police it doesn't usually end up beneficial. The best response you might get is go see a judge who will tell you they don't care.

55555 8y ago

A website is a fine idea but I'm not sure you need it. Just get the footage and make a post on Facebook. If it goes viral in your area, they may be identified by PM.

sneak 8y ago

A roommate once stole $30,000 from me while I was out of town. The police were disinterested in helping despite written records of him admitting to the crime, until I pulled strings internally and got detectives assigned to the case. The police in the USA of course have no legal obligation to investigate or protect, contrary to popular understanding. Sovereign/qualified immunity really needs to be scaled back.

lxmorj 8y ago

This sucks and shouldn’t be true, but it is: make this the police’s problem. Make it easier for them to do what you ask than to ignore you or give you platitudes. Call every damn day day. Explain the situation from scratch, in detail. When they say they can’t do anything, ask for a supervisor. Repeat. Do not get upset. Be friendly, but annoy them into submission. They are human. Lazy humans with a very easy out ‘this isn’t the biggest problem I have to deal with today’. Make fixing this a sexy damn option as compared to hearing from you day in and day out. Email them a form letter that they can just sign, that you can give to foot locker and the bank. When they ignore it or say they can’t do it digitally, show up with copies. Every Day Until They Sign. Again - you shouldn’t have to do this. “What about people who don’t have the time for this?!?” Yup, they’re fucked. But you have the time, so you aren’t. It’s a dumb, bullshit game, but it is what it is.

woolvalley 8y ago
The problem with this is the police can harass you back in an asymmetrical way that involves you in jail with a record on trumped up charges. If they wont even bother with the most non-controversial of crimes, what makes you think they have the moral gumption to not do that to get rid of an annoyance?
- lxmorj 8y ago
  Hence the "remain friendly". They need to believe you are just an annoying dude, not think you are trying to win a battle of wills.
tripzilch 8y ago
One could even build a public platform to enable and crowdsource bothering the police.

foxyv 8y ago

When did police stop trying to catch robbers? It's usually just a few serial robbers terrorizing a neighborhood. The few times they catch someone they stop like 50% of the crime in the area. I remember one time they did a bait bike program and rounded up a ring that was stealing hundreds of bikes. But they see one little robbery and go meh!

tripzilch 8y ago

> since the author of this post already had video of these theives, there needs to be a platform to post these videos for the public to crowdsource the identity of these people. No, what you need is a functioning police force. Not vigilante justice. Edit: You could also make a public platform where you would crowdsource generating the political pressure to make the police work better, as well as monitoring them for doing their jobs. This has the advantage that the people put in the spotlight have a public function already, and that it's a more democratic process. The main problem I have with your proposal is that it results in the doxxing and witch hunt of people caught on camera and even if mostly effective/just, this will eventually backfire because of the thirst for revenge and spectacle and because we can't have nice things.