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True story... I run a web crawling company named Datastreamer where we license data to social media monitoring firms. We're very white hat... Don't even like

True story... I run a web crawling company named Datastreamer where we license data to social media monitoring firms. We're very white hat... Don't even like to mess around with grey hat areas as we don't want something like the Cambridge Analytica situation coming back to bite us in the ass. About 1.5 years ago we were contacted by a 3rd party firm which we eventually found out was a cut out for Saudi Arabia. The deal was at least $350k per year but we never got down to final negotiation. They wanted a LOT of data and also custom support and engineering. It could have easily hit $1M which is a lot of money and would have been a significant percentage of our revenue. About a month into conversations the questions became a bit disturbing. It was clear to me that they were interested in tracking ethic minorities and trying to track down their physical location. ... you can read between the lines in the RFP. After finding out what happened to Khashoggi I'm VERY happy about my decision. They were using this technology to harass him on social media and I'm sure are and were tracking other people.

wpietri 8y ago
Very interesting. Do you know who eventually built is for them?
lawnchair_larry 8y ago
Sounds similar to what Moxie experienced: https://moxie.org/blog/saudi-surveillance/ https://moxie.org/blog/saudi-surveillance/
- eitland 8y ago
  This quote is interesting in a historic context (WhatsApp uses Moxie's encryption now.): > More to the point, if you’re in Saudi Arabia (or really anywhere), it might be prudent to think about avoiding insecure communication tools like WhatsApp and Viber
  - chippy 8y ago
    Does this mean WhatsApp is okay to use now?
    - 76 8y ago
      No. Facebook bought them.
    - eitland 8y ago
      Depending on your threat model, yes. As far as I understand they cannot read the content of your messages, however: - by default they'll upload backups of your messages to Google cloud. - (more importantly for me) I really don't trust Facebook to: 1.) not abuse metadata 2.) not mess up security somehow 3.) stand up against whatever oppressive regimes we might see in the future In addition I don't want to make the Facebook ecosystem any stronger if I can avoid it. A nice bonus is that I strengthen the network effect of other ecosystems when I use them by default.
    - doctorstupid 8y ago
      No, in response to things like WhatsApp the Australian government just passed a bill enabling it to force companies to create backdoors to encrypted communications.
anonymouzz 8y ago
Perhaps I'm taking the moral high ground here, but you should contact the media or human rights organizations, spill the beans to help them investigate. Anonymously if necessary.
- whatshisface 8y ago
  Which organizations other than Wikileaks have a history of successfully pursuing this stuff?
  - derEitel 8y ago
    The group's behind the Panama Papers, Cum-Ex Scandals, LuxLeaks etc.
  - anonymouzz 8y ago
    I'd see which newspaper had a reaction to the Khashoggi's death and try to directly contact the journalists writing the articles. They're people and they may be quite happy for the ammunition provided. For example: https://techcrunch.com/2018/10/17/silicon-valley-hoped-the-khashoggi-story-would-go-away-instead-it-may-end-an-era/ https://techcrunch.com/2018/10/17/silicon-valley-hoped-the-k... Don't let scumbags have their way, if you can tip the scale in the other direction. But again, don't want to take the moral high ground and tell people what to do.
  - dx034 8y ago
    The Guardian is very active in that space.
  - ethbro 8y ago
    What exactly has WikiLeaks "pursued"? Last I checked, they had people contact them and published material they liked. Not discounting the work they do, but there's a huge difference between them and someone like The Guardian assigning reporters to investigate a story.
  - krageon 8y ago
    None. And it's not like wikileaks made a lasting and positive change anywhere so far. Plus, after "leaking" it's quite possible your life will be destroyed. Thus the utility becomes a net negative.
redisman 8y ago
Too bad there are so many people like Manafort who are happy to take on that job for a quick buck. Sure people are being hunted down but check out the ostrich jacket!
- jeron 8y ago
  for every company that refuses, there'll be one that will take it on for the right price...
  - praptak 8y ago
    This is both true and a shitty excuse.
  - ionised 8y ago
    The Mantra of Greed.
  - dantheman 8y ago
    and hopefully they'll be inept and it won't work. and then they'll shop around some more. it will cost them, more and more, and hopefully it will be deemed not worth it.
- jo2ie 8y ago
  Well the depressing part for me is I have seen good friends, extremely smart people who have no sane reason to be working on shady shit, fall down the rabbit hole. And I really haven't found effective ways to do anything about it... There are two issues at play 1. Not everyone is prepared mentally to turn down big payouts. I have seen this happening up and down the food chain. You only understand how hard this is after you have been in that position. And these day some of the cheques that get waved in your face are insane. 2. People get sucked into a certain kind of "lifestyle" that they get insecure about loosing. And will do whatever it takes to maintain that lifestyle. Once they get "trapped" they are part of this global mega machine of similar folk. Sometimes it feels like watching ants in an anthill. All on autopilot. The thing is they know they are trapped and convincing them to give it up is not simple.
ziont 8y ago
good karma on you sir. some companies/individuals would've jumped on it. i dont know how engineers sleep at night who write spyware that track and ultimately contribute to people getting tortured to death, usually political dissidents. also ppl designing new ways to kill humans. wtf is that shit? real contribution to humanity lol
- honestoHeminway 8y ago
  These people usually are the same sort who willingly become part of a raging mob, and convince themselves its okay to contribute and hate on some outlier group. And those who need the tools know how to roll the cat downhill. "Those are tools to hunt only criminals." "We are a completely seperate department to the political police" "I hate those creepy state safety agents more then you."
JohnBooty 8y ago
Good to know there are folks out there doing their best to do the right thing!
ncr100 8y ago
CIA might thank you for sharing this with them.
espeed 8y ago
Three years ago I got a similar call to build a user-facing knowledge graph for the region. Effectively replicating Freebase, backed by the regional telecom and the Royal Family. It was likely the same group that approached you because I was approached in precisely the same way.

wpietri 8y ago

Very interesting. Do you know who eventually built is for them?

lawnchair_larry 8y ago

Sounds similar to what Moxie experienced: https://moxie.org/blog/saudi-surveillance/ https://moxie.org/blog/saudi-surveillance/

eitland 8y ago
This quote is interesting in a historic context (WhatsApp uses Moxie's encryption now.): > More to the point, if you’re in Saudi Arabia (or really anywhere), it might be prudent to think about avoiding insecure communication tools like WhatsApp and Viber
- chippy 8y ago
  Does this mean WhatsApp is okay to use now?
  - 76 8y ago
    No. Facebook bought them.
  - eitland 8y ago
    Depending on your threat model, yes. As far as I understand they cannot read the content of your messages, however: - by default they'll upload backups of your messages to Google cloud. - (more importantly for me) I really don't trust Facebook to: 1.) not abuse metadata 2.) not mess up security somehow 3.) stand up against whatever oppressive regimes we might see in the future In addition I don't want to make the Facebook ecosystem any stronger if I can avoid it. A nice bonus is that I strengthen the network effect of other ecosystems when I use them by default.
  - doctorstupid 8y ago
    No, in response to things like WhatsApp the Australian government just passed a bill enabling it to force companies to create backdoors to encrypted communications.

anonymouzz 8y ago

Perhaps I'm taking the moral high ground here, but you should contact the media or human rights organizations, spill the beans to help them investigate. Anonymously if necessary.

whatshisface 8y ago
Which organizations other than Wikileaks have a history of successfully pursuing this stuff?
- derEitel 8y ago
  The group's behind the Panama Papers, Cum-Ex Scandals, LuxLeaks etc.
- anonymouzz 8y ago
  I'd see which newspaper had a reaction to the Khashoggi's death and try to directly contact the journalists writing the articles. They're people and they may be quite happy for the ammunition provided. For example: https://techcrunch.com/2018/10/17/silicon-valley-hoped-the-khashoggi-story-would-go-away-instead-it-may-end-an-era/ https://techcrunch.com/2018/10/17/silicon-valley-hoped-the-k... Don't let scumbags have their way, if you can tip the scale in the other direction. But again, don't want to take the moral high ground and tell people what to do.
- dx034 8y ago
  The Guardian is very active in that space.
- ethbro 8y ago
  What exactly has WikiLeaks "pursued"? Last I checked, they had people contact them and published material they liked. Not discounting the work they do, but there's a huge difference between them and someone like The Guardian assigning reporters to investigate a story.
- krageon 8y ago
  None. And it's not like wikileaks made a lasting and positive change anywhere so far. Plus, after "leaking" it's quite possible your life will be destroyed. Thus the utility becomes a net negative.

redisman 8y ago

Too bad there are so many people like Manafort who are happy to take on that job for a quick buck. Sure people are being hunted down but check out the ostrich jacket!

jeron 8y ago
for every company that refuses, there'll be one that will take it on for the right price...
- praptak 8y ago
  This is both true and a shitty excuse.
- ionised 8y ago
  The Mantra of Greed.
- dantheman 8y ago
  and hopefully they'll be inept and it won't work. and then they'll shop around some more. it will cost them, more and more, and hopefully it will be deemed not worth it.
jo2ie 8y ago
Well the depressing part for me is I have seen good friends, extremely smart people who have no sane reason to be working on shady shit, fall down the rabbit hole. And I really haven't found effective ways to do anything about it... There are two issues at play 1. Not everyone is prepared mentally to turn down big payouts. I have seen this happening up and down the food chain. You only understand how hard this is after you have been in that position. And these day some of the cheques that get waved in your face are insane. 2. People get sucked into a certain kind of "lifestyle" that they get insecure about loosing. And will do whatever it takes to maintain that lifestyle. Once they get "trapped" they are part of this global mega machine of similar folk. Sometimes it feels like watching ants in an anthill. All on autopilot. The thing is they know they are trapped and convincing them to give it up is not simple.

ziont 8y ago

good karma on you sir. some companies/individuals would've jumped on it. i dont know how engineers sleep at night who write spyware that track and ultimately contribute to people getting tortured to death, usually political dissidents. also ppl designing new ways to kill humans. wtf is that shit? real contribution to humanity lol

honestoHeminway 8y ago
These people usually are the same sort who willingly become part of a raging mob, and convince themselves its okay to contribute and hate on some outlier group. And those who need the tools know how to roll the cat downhill. "Those are tools to hunt only criminals." "We are a completely seperate department to the political police" "I hate those creepy state safety agents more then you."

JohnBooty 8y ago

Good to know there are folks out there doing their best to do the right thing!

ncr100 8y ago

CIA might thank you for sharing this with them.

espeed 8y ago

Three years ago I got a similar call to build a user-facing knowledge graph for the region. Effectively replicating Freebase, backed by the regional telecom and the Royal Family. It was likely the same group that approached you because I was approached in precisely the same way.