19 ms·

Gut bacteria may offer a treatment for autism

378 points by daegloe 8y ago

theprotocol 8y ago
Without S. Boulardii, I am a neurotic mess who can't digest anything at all nor think straight after eating anything, so I'm inclined to believe this hypothesis. I am also intrigued about what this means for criminality and how the line between illness and evil is likely to shift given the role of microorganisms in behavioral dysfunction; and more broadly, we don't like to admit it, but it seems that completely amoral factors can be the cause of moral, amoral, or immoral behavior.
- amelius 8y ago
  How did you find out?
  - theprotocol 8y ago
    I figured out that my problems were related to intestinal microflora because they became ten times worse after undergoing 3 courses of H. Pylori eradication therapy in the span of only a few months, and I never improved for years afterwards. That's the short version; in reality, I suffered for a decade and a half before I caught on that I could do something about it, and it took about 5 years after that to get any kind of positive result (which gave me the confidence to pursue it more seriously). S. Boulardii is fairly widely known as having a pretty broad range of positive effects, so trying it out was a no-brainer. I have tried many, many things over the years and have improved greatly. On a related note, it is common to assume that confirmation bias or the placebo effect would distort my judgment, but it turns out I am objective to a fault, as any objectively measurable intervention that I thought worked was later tested experimentally and confirmed my results. There is actually nothing wrong with taking a guerrilla approach to health if doctors can't help you, as long as you don't fall for the "alternative for alternative's sake" fallacy, and are willing to bear the costs of iterating through the most promising interventions and not being disappointed when most of them fail.
    - whitepoplar 8y ago
      Did you adjust your diet, or are you taking supplements?
      - theprotocol 8y ago
        Both. Regarding diet, I started observing the effects of everything I ate and adjusting accordingly, somewhat like an elimination diet. I was actually really clueless at first and had numerous deficiencies as a tradeoff for some of the symptoms disappearing (which was great but not sustainable). Over the span of years, this has improved and today I have no deficiencies and only relatively mild symptoms remain. The biggest breakthrough was limiting fermentation, by taking the FODMAP IBS diet to its natural conclusion, and eliminating everything that would ferment (and thus increase intestinal microorganisms, which for me were imbalanced). What prompted me to do this was trying 2 similar probiotic formulations, only one of which had FOS. The one with FOS caused a huge flare up. So I greatly reduced fermentable things ("resistant starches," "soluble fiber," "FOS," "FODMAPs", fructans, sugar alcohols...). Caprylic acid supplementation really reduced fermentation whenever I made a dietary mistake. I googled that idea and found the blog of Dr. Norm Robillard which advocates for a similar low-fermentation diet. Interestingly, the people who commented on his site seemed to divide into 2 camps: low-fermentation people vs. those who did well on the opposite diet (high starch / fermented foods). Adding S. Boulardii then reduced my symptoms further (brain fog, chronic intestinal inflammation) and I feel pretty decent now. I cannot yet figure out how to make it so my intestinal microflora is balanced enough that eating fermented and/or fermentable foods wouldn't destroy me. I'm still working on that in my spare time.
        hugelgupf 8y ago
        Brain fog, intestinal inflammation. Sounds so very familiar. Do you have research notes, on methodology and things tried? I'm now very curious for myself.
        theprotocol 8y ago
        I don't have notes per se, and I am afraid to say something that can be considered advice. I can answer any question you might have though (assuming it's appropriate for me to do so here, I hope I don't annoy HN users).
- CM30 8y ago
  > I am also intrigued about what this means for criminality and how the line between illness and evil is likely to shift given the role of microorganisms in behavioral dysfunction; and more broadly, we don't like to admit it, but it seems that completely amoral factors can be the cause of moral, amoral, or immoral behavior. That line is already in trouble because of genetics research, psychology research, etc showing that people's actions are less based on deliberate choice than they'd like to believe. Of course, this all causes issues for society since (for good or bad), a stable society kinda needs to at least pretend humanity have some general sense of free will otherwise a lot of things (like the aforementioned justice system) stop making sense.
  - impy 8y ago
    > That line is already in trouble because of genetics research, psychology research, etc showing that people's actions are less based on deliberate choice than they'd like to believe. I'd like to know more about this. Do you have sources for these?
    - brendanmc6 8y ago
      Sam Harris explores these topics in his book Free Will, I wasn't blown away by the read but would still recommended it if you already find yourself fascinated by the discussion.
  - baddox 8y ago
    Isn’t this only “trouble” if you think of legal penalties like imprisonment only as punishment for your choices? If you think about imprisonment differently, perhaps as a means to protect other people from future crimes, issues like gut biome and “free will” aren’t really relevant.
    - jhayward 8y ago
      > If you think about imprisonment differently, perhaps as a means to protect other people from future crimes, issues like gut biome and “free will” aren’t really relevant. They are very relevant, because then the question becomes "how do we best protect everyone, including the offender". It's highly unlikely that imprisonment is an appropriate medical treatment or harm minimization procedure for a medical condition.
- wufufufu 8y ago
  I don't see that species in the article. How did you learn about that tropical species of yeast, and how long have you been taking it? What was your digestion/appetite like with and without that supplement?
  - kaitai 8y ago
    Not the parent poster, but I learned about S Boulardii from some German studies of probiotics. Boulardii at one point was one of the few that showed benefits in randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trials. That was a while ago so don't know what the state of the research is now.
- redcalx 8y ago
  I am very interested in learning more. I will Google etc. of course, but if there are links, blog posts or bits of info you would be willing to share I would be most grateful. Thanks.
- erikpukinskis 8y ago
  It also casts religions with dietary restrictions in an interesting light.
  - jlg23 8y ago
    Which major religion forbids yeast intake (and how would you guarantee that) and from which angle does one shine light on a people united in faith but with distinct local food (and yeast) sources to make it "interesting"?
    - codeddesign 8y ago
      Look at the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Their belief isn’t necessarily yeast but dietary standards in general. Promotion of a vegetarian/vegan diet, and removal of alcohol, coffee, and sugar since the late 1800’s. As far as I know the dietary standards include the promotion of the effects of gut bateria, and the ill effects of eating things like warm bread but not necessarily removal of yeast.
      - celticninja 8y ago
        I don't think that seventh day Adventist church is necessarily an example of being we'll adjusted
        atomical 8y ago
        Just living the longest.
      - atomical 8y ago
        You're really reaching here.
    - justinator 8y ago
      The Catholic Church uses unleavened bread for the Host. It's symbolic, but somewhat of an interest in this thread.
- nyc111 8y ago
  @theprotocol thanks for this detailed explanation. Very helpful.
  - dcx 8y ago
    Adding my thanks to this. I have IBS and have done a ton of self-experimentation over the years to fix my symptoms (with reasonable success). I totally get what you mean about free will and being unable to think straight when your digestive system is not managed. This is an interesting pathway that I had not discovered yet; from my initial reading it looks like the mycobiome is somewhat at the cutting edge [1]. [1] https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2607/6/1/22/htm https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2607/6/1/22/htm
- gboudrias 8y ago
  Interestingly, almost no one in NA justice systems talks about evil. The causality between life events leading to crime is often ridiculously clear, and choice barely factors into it. Believing in evil is its own kind of privilege. I for one have now seen a lot of criminal cases, and I've only seen sick people and people following the path laid before them. No evil in sight, but the concept's very existence allows for a certain social stability, to the detriment of some in favor of others.
  - berberous 8y ago
    I tend to be a bleeding heart and agree that many cases of criminal behavior are mental illness or environment/circumstances, but I still think there is a spectrum of morality out there -- not sure what you mean by "evil" exactly, but certainly a spectrum where people can range from high on empathy and kindness to those who care much less about others and are more amoral or even sociopathic.
    - hnuser1234 8y ago
      I agree, but let's go deeper... I'd wager is there is a way to rank "empathy/kindness" in a more objective way, and that the current social environment is distanced from that objectivity. Now even if we could perfectly, objectively rank it, should we immediately jail the bottom 1/3/10%, or should we wait for them to commit a crime? Should we give lighter sentences to more empathetic people who commit crimes, assuming they had better reasons to do it?
      - tonyedgecombe 8y ago
        We are starting to understand the parts of the brain that empathy originates from. The whole question gets more complicated when you realise that these regions could be diminished through no fault of the individual.
  - ohiovr 8y ago
    Reminds me of the Monty Python sketch when the sketch artist police admit society is to blame and proceed to arrest everyone.
- harigov 8y ago
  Have you tried helminthic therapy by any chance? Also would you care to share your current treatment protocol? I am in a similar position with lots of dietary allergies and I am considering doing helminthic therapy because it seems to have a lot of success stories.
- yellowbuilding 8y ago
  Can you recommend a brand?
- seren 8y ago
  On your second point, there is an article on The Atlantic, that is worth reading in my opinion : the Brain on Trial (2011) [0] It explores some case of brain malfunction leading to various criminal cases and what it means for free will (or lack of). Really makes you wonder what freedom do we really have. [0] https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/07/the-brain-on-trial/308520/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/07/the-bra...
kanishkdudeja 8y ago
There's no free will :)
- theprotocol 8y ago
  I think there is free will, but like most things in life, it is a privilege not everyone has; many people are constrained by invisible shackles. I would wager that evil still exists, but it requires full awareness of what one is doing when perpetrating it, and so it is more rare than we think. (Of course, this is just an opinion.)
  - eeZah7Ux 8y ago
    > I think there is free will ... many people are constrained by invisible shackles This is a contradiction. "Free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will
    - theprotocol 8y ago
      That's entirely consistent with what I said: many people don't have free will. But free will does exist.
  - rexpop 8y ago
    This is an extremely articulate and beautiful perspective. How did you acquire it?
    - theprotocol 8y ago
      I'm probably gonna get downvotes for appearing to bask in this attention (which I didn't expect). In this case it's based on a heuristic. I can't at all model human will so it seems reasonable to start with it as infinite (since it's so vast and appears virtually limitless, the very reason I can't model it in the first place) and model in the constraints. edit: also, I am a Christian and that probably factors into my view subconsciously, although I am certain many non-Christian views would arrive to the same conclusion.
salamanderman 8y ago
I'm not too keen on the discouragement against self experimentation at the end of the article in this case. Self experimentation has greatly improved insulin pump technology in the past few years, and this situation has much much less risk.
- chapium 8y ago
  How good are most experiments with a sample size of 1? Can the data gathered be independently verified?
  - hanniabu 8y ago
    It can be verified by others self experimenting with a sample size of 1, creating an aggregated larger data set. A type of decentralized trial, if you will.
    - dpatrick86 8y ago
      Some research is adopting this pattern too. A great example is Dr. Satchin Panda's clinical trial on time-restricted eating. You self-select an eating window and then document it through the app. Pretty cool stuff. mycircadianclock.org
  - TheAceOfHearts 8y ago
    When you are suffering from some chronic disease you really only care about finding a solution that works for you. If there was a place where one could submit anecdotal experiences then you could analyze that data and use it as a basis for professionally run medical experiments. For example, if 1000 people said X food triggered symptoms of severe depression for a few hours after consumption then a professional could look at that and say "this is something worth looking into". You would be correct in remaining skeptical of individual claims which haven't been carefully verified, but you would be a fool to just ignore and discard those claims. Mikhaila Peterson is one example of an individual that was suffering from serious chronic problems who found a solution that appears to work for her. She's now on a carnivore diet, which means she only consumes meat and water. Now, that doesn't mean that everyone should go out and start imitating her, but it sure as hell sounds like something that medical professionals should look into.
chippy 8y ago
Reading about toxoplasma (a parasite of rats which can infect humans and alter their behaviour), I recall something about the common cold (a virus) and behaviour. My memory is fuzzy but there was a study that indicated that those with initial stages of a cold seek out human contact more and in the case of women, show more skin. The implication is that the virus seeks to replicate by altering our behaviour to transmit it to as many people as possible and the researchers speculated it could also mean that the common cold might lead to an increase in sex and also becoming a sexually transmitted virus.
- vbuwivbiu 8y ago
  "the virus seeks to replicate" variants of the virus that caused their hosts to socialize more replicated more
  - zumu 8y ago
    Kind of a tangent, but the way you phrased it, while much more technically correct, is totally roundabout and unnatural to a native English speaker. I've often postulated that the necessity of a Subject in English sentences causes us to inadvertently project agency in our descriptions of events / phenomena that in reality don't have an "actor" in a meaningful sense. It's fascinating to consider to what extent this false notion of causation and agency may constrain a native English speaker's understanding of the world.
    - vbuwivbiu 8y ago
      I completely agree it's ungainly - maybe this is better: "host-sociability-enhancing variants replicated more"
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      > Kind of a tangent, but the way you phrased it, while much more technically correct, is totally roundabout and unnatural to a native English speaker. As a native English speaker, I disagree; it is a perfectly natural way for the intended message to be communicated in English. > I've often postulated that the necessity of a Subject in English sentences causes us to inadvertently project agency in our descriptions of events / phenomena that in reality don't have an "actor" in a meaningful sense. A subject need not be an (semantic, much less also self-willed) agent (and, when it is, it can , and misleading anthropomorphization is in no way a peculiarity of English speakers. “Evolution favored variants which enhance host sociability” has a subject, which is a semantic (but not self-willed) agent. “Variants which enhanced host sociability are favored by evolution” has a subject, which is the patient rather than the agent. Both are quite natural English expressions, and (unlike attributing will to the virus) accurate (or, at least, describe a plausible phenomenon.)
amelius 8y ago
Perhaps a stupid question but can't they run some kind of differential analysis on blood values to find out what could be causing the effect on the brain? (I.e. take blood samples before and after introducing gut bacteria)
- ben_w 8y ago
  The impression I get is the biology is so messy that, even if that passed an ethics committee, they would still have difficulty isolating the stuff they were interested in from other effects they couldn’t control for. It’s not impossible, but it is very expensive. This is partly why medical tech takes about 10-15 years to go from invention to deployment.
  - Something1234 8y ago
    Why would a blood analysis be difficult to get pass an ethics committee? I get the confounding factors bit, but blood analysis seems to be a common practice.
milliaan 8y ago
my neighbor's mother makes $64 hourly on the laptop. She has been out of work for five months but last month her payment was $15080 just working on the laptop for a few hours. Go to this web site and read more.....www.geosalary.com
TheAceOfHearts 8y ago
I've encountered a fair bit of research and anecdotal stories showing how gut bacteria can have all sorts of crazy effects. It really makes you wonder how many conditions could be prevented or treated by dietary changes and supplements. I already wrote this in a response, but Mikhaila Peterson really opened up my eyes to the big impact diet can have on your health. To anyone that hasn't heard of her, she switched to a carnivore diet and many of her severe lifelong symptoms appear to have gone away. Recently I started considering the possibility that being fat could actually a symptom in some people. Controlling your weight is really easy when you're fairly healthy, but when you're sick it can become much more challenging. I used to be fairly critical of fat people, thinking that it was laziness, but I think the numbers are just too large to chalk it up exclusively to any single thing. There's also a lot of fat people that work incredibly hard and they excel at tons of things, which brings the laziness hypothesis to question. It's entirely possible that laziness plays a role in some, but when you take a high-resolution view of the world it's rare to find single-variable answers to complex problems. We also know that your mouth bacteria can have a huge impact on your dental health. There's people that barely have to brush their teeth to maintain perfect dental health, and others that still manage to get cavities despite following fairly rigorous routines such as brushing and flossing after every meal. I'll note it's been a few years since I last looked into this claim so take this comment with a grain of salt. Trying out probiotics seems fairly safe and it could have hugely positive effects on your health. The sibling comments from theprotocol are just one example. To add an anecdote, I recently started taking probiotics and the first thing I noticed after a few days was that I no longer felt tired after eating. I've experienced a few other positive changes, but I haven't been taking them for long enough to feel confident that those changes can be attributed exclusively to the probiotics. My biggest issue with probiotics is that finding good information about different products is fairly difficult. I basically just picked a box at random out of all the choices available. Does anyone have suggestions of good book on this topic? I've seen The Mind-Guy Connection and The Good Gut floated around a bit, but they have mixed reviews and the scientific rigor behind some of their claims seems to be under question.
hyperpape 8y ago
I have not read much on mouse models of autism, but I seem to recall an undercurrent of scepticim in comments from autism researchers. Here is one article to that effect: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/03/the-limits-of-studying-autism-in-mice/556109/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/03/the-limi.... Certainly research on mouse models of autism is a big deal: I see summaries of new such studies multiple times a week.
yasp 8y ago
Possibly of interest. https://www.wheatbellyblog.com/2018/04/make-l-reuteri-yogurt/ https://www.wheatbellyblog.com/2018/04/make-l-reuteri-yogurt... https://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/70456-lactobacillus-reuteri-atcc-pta-6475-most-potent-thing-ever/ https://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/70456-lactobacillus-re...
OliverJones 8y ago
Running this kind of article in a general-audience magazine takes a lot of guts (no pun intended) after all the trouble caused by another article about autism. That was a bogus paper in The Lancet in 1998 published by Wakefield et al. That paper, proven false, asserted a connection between Measles-Mumps-Rubella vaccine and autism. But the effects of that paper linger on among conspiracy theorists. Let's hope this one doesn't have similar consequences. Meanwhile, as a guy "on the spectrum" I'm going to try a subjective bioassay of L. reuterii. Can't hurt.
- theprotocol 8y ago
  If you have trouble with histamines, watch out. It actually can hurt: https://www.athinkingpatient.com/probiotic-l-reuteri-mast-cell-activation/ https://www.athinkingpatient.com/probiotic-l-reuteri-mast-ce...
- partiallypro 8y ago
  Sure, but I think people taking a probiotic is on net, much much much less damaging than people not vaccinating. I think a lot of studies show your gut reject most OTC probiotics or they are DOA and thus don't work.
the8472 8y ago
Gut bacteria may offer a treatment for autism in mice.
- kokey 8y ago
  Treatment of mice with autism-like symptoms. That said, this research actually genuinely attempts to research causation, where most of the other studies I've seen linking gut microbes and autism are essentially only demonstrating correlation. Anyone who has spent any time trying to make a picky autistic child eat a varied diet will not be surprised by this correlation.
- martincmartin 8y ago
  And therefore, it may (or may not) offer one in humans.
  - TaupeRanger 8y ago
    That's a vapid statement. Everything may or may not be a treatment for any ailment.
    - diffeomorphism 8y ago
      Context is important. The post it replies to says it "may offer a treatment for autism in mice." The not-at-all vapid statement is that one should be cautious in that even if it works in mice, there are many examples where this did not transfer to working for humans.
  - calcifer 8y ago
    If something is "may or may not", then I don't think "therefore" is a valid conclusion.
- pvaldes 8y ago
  May offer a treatment for a disease/problem of mice that is poorly know. A problem that mice not necessarily share with humans.
objektif 8y ago
A bit off topic but what is the HN consensus on probiotics? Any brands you can recommend?
- JacobJans 8y ago
  Probiotics are generally too much of a "magic bullet" -- if you're serious about changing your microbiome, the most effective way is through dietary changes. What you eat is ultimately the vast majority of what your gut microbes consume; high sugar and high starch foods tend to lead to an unhealthy microbiome. Many people avoid grains for this reason as well. The types of bacteria that thrive in your gut varies depending on what you eat. High fiber is more likely to result in a healthy balance of gut bacteria. However, if you already suffer from a damaged gut, a high fiber diet can be difficult, so be sure to increase fiber slowly, and with awareness of how it affects your body. That being said, if you want probiotics, plain whole milk yogurt is the way to go. (If you can handle dairy.) I avoid the bifido type bacteria; though that is for very specific reasons. Acidopholus, l. casei, Lactobacillus bulgaricus and Streptococcus thermophilus are all fine, the latter two being the traditional yogurt bacteria.
- carbocation 8y ago
  They probably don't work. https://www.cell.com/cell/abstract/S0092-8674(18)31108-5 https://www.cell.com/cell/abstract/S0092-8674(18)31108-5
  - delackner 8y ago
    The key quote here being: "[...] Lactobacillus-secreted soluble factors contributed to [...]compromised gut mucosal recovery, highlighting a need of developing aFMT or personalized probiotic approaches achieving mucosal protection without compromising microbiome recolonization in the antibiotics-perturbed host." They tested only multi-strain probiotics vs "aFMT" (fecal transplant). That is a far cry from saying "probiotics don't work".
    - carbocation 8y ago
      They're leaving the door open to them working if you match the right strain with the right person (this is their area of research, of course they would like it to work). But the study provides no support for that. In contrast, fecal transplants have been shown to be effective for some diseases.
En_gr_Student 8y ago
Folks I know were saying this a decade ago. Is this new?
- treethought 8y ago
  No it's not exactly new, but this study used a widely available strain of bacteria. Additionally, this study seems to dig deeper into the physiology of how the introduced bacteria ameliorates the symtopms of autism (improved ion flow causing social interactions to be more rewarding).
- martincmartin 8y ago
  TFA answers your question. "A study just published in Neuron ..."
noetic_techy 8y ago
My thoery: I'm inclined to think the link in autism might be caused by the prevalence of C-section births not passing the proper gut microbiome to some kids who are also genetically more inclined to autism but only if the gut is screwed up at birth. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4464665/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4464665/ Doctors nowadays do C-sections often for unnecessary reasons, such as expedience or shift changes or as a default because the believe its "safer": https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/01/19/arsdarian-cutting-the-number-of-c-section-births/ https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/01/19/arsdarian-c... The wrong micro-biome eventually builds up a toxic load that causes the onset of autistic symptoms. Most likely due to cell danger response (CDR) getting stuck: https://health.ucsd.edu/news/releases/Pages/2017-05-26-century-old-drug-potential-new-approach-to-autism.aspx https://health.ucsd.edu/news/releases/Pages/2017-05-26-centu... Out on a limb, I know. But likely the cause is probably going to come down to a cascade of preventable events and toxic loads causing some kind of malfunction in those who are already gene compromised.
- coss 8y ago
  Surely, a correlation would have been found by now? Any data on it?
- abledon 8y ago
  Also less women are breastfeeding, a process which also gives probiotics
  - elliekelly 8y ago
    Yes, this is hugely important for a child and our laws in the U.S. do not give families adequate support to allow most women to be able to provide this crucial care for this children.[1] It's difficult for many women working white collar jobs and almost impossible for women who work minimum wage jobs.[2] This systemic problem is going to have long-term public health effects that we have yet to even comprehend. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3020209/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3020209/ [2] https://qz.com/1034016/the-class-dynamics-of-breastfeeding-in-the-united-states-of-america/ https://qz.com/1034016/the-class-dynamics-of-breastfeeding-i...
fabrice_d 8y ago
A very approachable book on the topic by Giulia Enders is "Gut: The Inside Story of Our Body's Most Underrated Organ" (https://www.amazon.com/Gut-Inside-Story-Underrated-Revised/dp/1771643765/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1543799970&sr=8-1_ https://www.amazon.com/Gut-Inside-Story-Underrated-Revised/d...
- aagha 8y ago
  Enders does a great (and entertaining) Ted talk on the Gut here - https://www.ted.com/talks/giulia_enders_the_surprisingly_charming_science_of_our_gut?language=en https://www.ted.com/talks/giulia_enders_the_surprisingly_cha...
hannob 8y ago
The whole article is about a study on autistic mice. Except that there's no such thing as an autistic mouse. Trying to apply the diagnosis of autism to a mouse is so beyond ridiculous.
- lubesGordi 8y ago
  There is a clear impact of gut bacteria on behavior, that's pretty much all you need to start deriving value from the experiments.
- twtw 8y ago
  Care to share your reasoning? - the article describes the symptoms in mice that the researchers observe, and it seems like a reasonable place to start. Or do you just prefer to disparage the work of these researchers, without explanation?
  - csdreamer7 8y ago
    Agreed, too many people state things without bothering to prove it. This study may flag people's bullshit meters, but simply stating mice can't be autistic is a poor way to do it. If anyone can cite research on if mice can develop autism or not I would love to see it. Edit: there is a study published by Nature mouse models of autism with behavioral genetics. https://www.nature.com/articles/4002082 https://www.nature.com/articles/4002082
LTjoker 8y ago
The American diet has always lacked fermented foods. Once I fixed this, everything started working again. Now I have to actively avoid Americans that don't understand this. Some have such strong feelings, adverse to trying new things. I've been on the receiving end of lectures many times about how my food is rabbit food. Or it "Doesn't have enough protine."
- cobythedog 8y ago
  There is no "American diet" as far as I have experienced. Once you travel around the country you find vastly different eating habits and diets.
- rootusrootus 8y ago
  I thought yogurt was quite popular? Even sauerkraut isn't really uncommon in America. But I struggle to even think what would constitute an "American Diet" unless you're using that to refer to someone who just eats hot dogs and hamburgers.
aheilbut 8y ago
Rather, gut bacteria may affect certain social behaviours in mice.
- throwaway487551 8y ago
  How this is related to humans? What is autism in mice in the first place? What kind of fucking degenerates are "studying" or "modeling" a cross-species "mental" disorder??? On species with an almost unrelated brain structure as a "model"?? What kind of bullshit is this?
  - diffeomorphism 8y ago
    > How this is related to humans? Feel free to experiment on humans first before trying mice. > What is autism in mice in the first place? Social behavior, measurable effects you would also use for diagnostics in humans etc. > What kind of fucking degenerates are "studying" or "modeling" a cross-species "mental" disorder??? People who are smarter than you, obviously.
intralizee 8y ago
Free will is an illusion and thus choices don't exist.
- test6554 8y ago
  If you assume free will is an illusion, then it would make more sense to treat those who threaten society as faulty machinery and scrap them. Assuming people can admit and learn from their mistakes means you can focus on rehabilitation and treat them with dignity.
  - intralizee 8y ago
    No, it makes more sense to fix the broken system that resulted in the faulty machinery and to fix the faulty person as well. If one cannot fix the person, it doesn't make sense to scrap them if we put humanity at the highest regard with understanding free will is an illusion. We would just have to prevent the person from being able to do the wrong and understand punishment is against humanity in the equation with handling the person.
    - rhizome 8y ago
      Wouldn't the choice to fix a broken system require free will not to be an illusion?
      - intralizee 8y ago
        Whatever comes is destiny in our reality and when you understand free will is an illusion.. I did not have the ability to a different person and communicate something different today (same as you). Basically the needed events have to occur and similar to anything that humanity adopts as knowledge & way of life.
        SZJX 8y ago
        Not sure what you're trying to say here at all. Apparently you can't keep your extreme position logically coherent. I agree that the idea of "free will" might have been exaggerated too much especially in the US tradition, and I think people here generally agree. But taking a position of complete denial is likely not sound either. No need replying to everybody trying to defend your point. That in itself is a bit weak.
z3t4 8y ago
Food and digestion is an interesting area. There are a lot of new research being done. And theories that suggest our food intake can explain many symptoms and diseases. Because the food market is so huge, I'm afraid we'll see a lot of pseudo science and mumbo jumbo in the near future. So make sure you have the bullshit detector on. The Nestle baby milk scandal comes to mind, where doctors get a kick-back from recommending certain products. When you see news article like this one, and others recently, it will be hard to question future miracle products and supplement recommendations.
intralizee 8y ago
I remember reading about how the psychiatrists in Russia, would forcibly place persons with schizophrenia into a situation where they would have to fast for an extended period of time and being a month or longer. Seems like they were on the right theory.
mg794613 8y ago
I. Don't. Want. Treatment. I come from a poor family, with amazing parents, but with limited resources. And sorry to say it in a time where autism "is a disease that needs to be eradicated", but I have my whole current living standard to thank of being a autistic.
- rootusrootus 8y ago
  Not everyone is high functioning. A friend of mine with a nonverbal autistic daughter might take a different view if offered a treatment.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
Nasrudith 8y ago
Wouldn't all of the autism cure cranks out there have gotten actual results other than dead children if this were true? Digestion and diet have kind of been a fixation for them along with them along with chelation - anything to avoid the heritability elephant in the room.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > Wouldn't all of the autism cure cranks out there have gotten actual results other than dead children if this were true? Probably not; systematic empirical investigation isn't exactly their thing, so even if their intuition (or deflecfion, depending on how you look at it) was in the right neighborhood (diet and digestion if gut bacteria offer some real help), doesn't make it particularly likely that they’d stumble on to the right thing.
- tomjakubowski 8y ago
  Diet itself seems pretty heritable, at least for children. Up to a certain age, we generally eat what our parents tell us to, and that is generally pretty similar to what they're eating.
  - Nasrudith 8y ago
    It is environmental however and mutable. Wouldn't that imply that if the then the bad old day practice of 'take the developmentally disabled kid from her mother because she is clearly to blame - and into an institution' would have had a positive impact. There should be ample opportunities for diet to change even earlier on - incidents that seem like they should add up to documented evidence if there was something there. I mean even with a case with complications like scurvy - the vitamin C couldn't be measured and it was there in fresh food but not most preserved food and why citrus were the examples that could retain it. Of course there was also some astounding utter refusal to learn there.
gehwartzen 8y ago
Very anecdotal but for the first couple of years of my sons life I gave him l reuteri mostly because it is very well studied for showing improvement in infant colic (it’s whats in Gerber Soothe brand colic drops for example) It certainly worked wonderfully for that but his general mood was all around better and now at four he’s extremely social. Of course he could have been otherwise as well but we do have some family history on both sides with autism spectrum disorders. The specific brand of l reuteri that seemed best based on my research at the time is BioGaia Protrctis. Interestingly l Reuteri is also found in human breast milk.
- nickpsecurity 8y ago
  "Interestingly l Reuteri is also found in human breast milk." When I looked into breastfeeding, different sources said it had oxytocin in it which made people feel more connected or increased trust. Made me start wondering if society's break from breastfeeding might be causing a lot of social and family problems since the bootstrapping phase of trust wasn't there anymore. That's on top of how childbirth happens in hospitals treating it like industrial process. Now, you say that's in breast milk. Now I'm wondering if we can add the problems it might knock out to the list of negative effects of no breastfeeding.
  - steve_taylor 8y ago
    Also think of the mothers who can’t breastfeed through no fault of their own. We could potentially improve baby formula to counter the risks of not breastfeeding.
beef234 8y ago
The strain used is specifically: Lactobacillus reuteri MM4-1A (ATCC-PTA-6475)
- beef234 8y ago
  Only commercial product I'm finding with this strain is Biogaia Gastrus, but please let me know if anyone locates it in anything else!
  - zackmorris 8y ago
    I have been using the same for a week for leaky gut and feel better. It also supposedly fights H. pylori (the bacteria associated with stomach ulcers). I think I may have picked up a bad strain of cow bacteria from young cheese such as cottage cheese and casein in overnight protein supplements. I began having IBS symptoms a few years ago but didn't know what they were. I also developed a sensitivity to peanuts around the same time, which may have transferred to legumes and nightshades, which triggered rather severe bouts of acne and tendonitis, which lead me on the journey towards leaky gut and remedying it with a low carb/keto diet. Some other things that have helped are psyllium husk powder and good old fashioned prunes. Today my acne is completely gone and my joint pain is reduced but I have some redness that will probably take months to fade. I am noticing how important gut health is to overall health as I get older. I feel like maybe children express poor gut health in different ways, for example by asthma, allergies, type II diabetes, acne, ADHD/hyperactivity, autism, etc. It's looking like autoimmune diseases are tied to inflammation in the gut, which is exacerbated by poor western diets saturated with sugar/soy/corn and herbicides/pesticides like glyphosate (Roundup) which disrupt intestinal flora. This is an inconvenient truth for factory farming though so will probably take 5-10 years to show up in the literature and become mainstream knowledge.
throwaway487550 8y ago
What kind of fucking bullshit is this? Autism is a spectrum of compensating behavioral patterns that emerge as the way to diminish unusually high emotional stress (which is also a spectrum) due to genetically transmitted "imbalances" in a brain's structure (and/or biochemistry). So, nowadays every kind of fucking bullshit deserve the label "working hypothesis" instead of "gross incompetence"? BTW, autistic spectrum disorders are "hijacked" the most stable evolutionary strategy of "good looks" - quiet village beauties are carrying these alleles (presumably, product of inbreeding). There is no coincidence, that ASDs affects mostly boys. Motherly instincts, it seems, diminish (or compensate for) behavioral deviations. If one could come down to earth from the Ivory towers of abstract bullshit and look at the real world, the answers are out there.
throwaway487551 8y ago
What kind of fucking bullshit is this? Autism is a spectrum of compensating behavioral patterns that emerge as the way to diminish unusually high emotional stress (which is also a spectrum) due to genetically transmitted "imbalances" in a brain's structure (and/or biochemistry). So, nowadays every kind of fucking bullshit deserve the label "working hypothesis" instead of "gross incompetence"? BTW, autistic spectrum disorders are "hijacked" the most stable evolutionary strategy of "good looks" - quiet village beauties are carrying these alleles (presumably, product of inbreeding). There is no coincidence, that ASDs affects mostly boys. Motherly instincts, it seems, diminish (or compensate for) behavioral deviations. If one could come down to earth from the Ivory towers of abstract bullshit and look at the real world, the answers are out there.
- throwaway487551 8y ago
  Yes, yes, SJW, Code Of Conduct, etc. However, as one might observe, Mother Nature runs much more sophisticated and unbiased "natural experiments", so to speak. The as old as humanity strategy of quietly observing of what is often yield closer to reality results (better approximations, better hypothesis) than commercialized modeling based on wild disconnected from reality guesswork. Of course, gut bacteria could affect behavioral patterns, but it by no means the cause, may be an amplifier (a factor) but not even a partial cause. Anyone with an ounce of brain (which is used to be a prerequisite for a scientist) could see it clearly, just because autism is a human universal phenomena, while gut bacteria varies enormously from region to region.
deytempo 8y ago
Which means gut Bacteria may cause autism
throwaway487551 8y ago
What kind of fucking bullshit is this? Autism is a spectrum of compensating behavioral patterns that emerge as the way to diminish unusually high emotional stress (which is also a spectrum) due to genetically transmitted "imbalances" in a brain's structure (and/or biochemistry). So, nowadays every kind of fucking bullshit deserve the label "working hypothesis" instead of "gross incompetence"? BTW, autistic spectrum disorders are "hijacked" the most stable evolutionary strategy of "good looks" - quiet village beauties are carrying these alleles (presumably, product of inbreeding). There is no coincidence, that ASDs affects mostly boys. Motherly instincts, it seems, diminish (or compensate for) behavioral deviations. If one could come down to earth from the Ivory towers of abstract bullshit and look at the real world, the answers are out there.
prakashrj 8y ago
This is what happens and comes out from guts of kids with Autism. https://plus.google.com/photos/112611364634545455505/albums/5960963152806428513?authkey=COfd8Zj2oIzXmgE https://plus.google.com/photos/112611364634545455505/albums/... I am one of the few parents that could recover the kid from Autism. We have been crying wolf that it's a gut related issue, but mainstream is now slowly catching up.
prakashrj 8y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12923431 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12923431 Example that some of parents are trying to tell the world that Autism is a gut related issue.
throwaway487552 8y ago
In not so distant past many of weak-minded but talkative, ambitious and narcissistic people could have find their niche in any organized religion. Almost every fancy bullshit, as long as it fits the canon, could be accepted, praised and even rewarded. There were never a shortage of fancy bullshit. In the current age religions has been obsoleted, but weak-minded "creative" people are still here. So, science became a new religion, especially when it hit the wall of empiricism, a limitation, which has been realized by ancient eastern philosophers (Brahman is unattainable to conditioned intellect which could see nothing, but its conditioning). Modern day's notion of impossibility to break an abstraction barrier (see the wiring of a processor from the level of code) is the very same notion reformulated. Every bizarre bullshit could be framed as a hypothesis and published, giving a high social status of "theoretical researches" to its authors (instead of much more appropriate status of talkative idiots). It is due to social status, similar to those of a monk in medieval ages, which one's parents could buy for their children by paying them through a costly elite religious school. Nothing new under the moon. I personally prefer to see those disconnected from reality academics, who gave advice to Macron (based on disconnected from reality abstract notions) to tax the population to combat climate change, to be held accountable for all the damages caused by resulting riots and being forced to pay for their ignorant arrogance, but this will never happen, because academics are allowed to produce bullshit labeled as working hypothesis. The rest of us aren't.
throwaway487552 8y ago
Since when autistic spectrum disorders were redefined and reformulated? They used to be genetic brain structure/biochemistry related disorders with certain impaired social behaviors (which could be diagnosed using DSM) as their symptoms. How it is possible to "study" anything about human genetic disorders in a such unrelated model as mice, which does not have any cortex and other major areas, including language related one? Why treatment of the symptoms of unrelated disorder (any poisoning or radical gut disturbance surely affects behavioral patterns) is considered to be related to autism in humans, which has different causes, and manifests itself on a different brain structure and is unrelated to any gut bacteria whatsoever? Why this crap is considered to be a respectable science?
- twtw 8y ago
  Diagnosis of autism has never been based on specific genetic or biochemical causes or mechanisms. It is defined by its behavioral symptoms. > which has different causes, and manifests itself on a different brain structure and is unrelated to any gut bacteria whatsoever How do you know it has different causes, when the causes of autism have not been enumerated? > Why this crap is considered to be a respectable science? I'm glad you don't get to decide. Maybe this will turn out not to have any impact in humans, but why not let the research play out - that's science.
  - throwaway487552 8y ago
    > How do you know it has different causes, when the causes of autism have not been enumerated? A couple of reasons. One is that I'm struggling with it my whole life. Not a cosplayer, but actual high IQ individual who suffered a lot as a child in some social shithole. Almost like in popular movies. Another reason is that I have studied some literature available and psychology in general. I could see other people with similar symptoms, I could see their parents and could identify who is the carrier, etc. Current consensus, especially in the context of today's SJW madness, is disconnected from reality and what is. Autism is clearly genetic, it runs in families for generations, it usually carried by pretty women and it is more common in rural areas all over the world. These are obvious, easily testable facts, embedded into cultures. Now who are you to fuking lecture me?
bjowen 8y ago
... in a mouse model. End of line.
stillbourne 8y ago
I am incredibly skeptical about these kinds of claims.

378 points by daegloe 8y ago

Without S. Boulardii, I am a neurotic mess who can't digest anything at all nor think straight after eating anything, so I'm inclined to believe this hypothesis. I am also intrigued about what this means for criminality and how the line between illness and evil is likely to shift given the role of microorganisms in behavioral dysfunction; and more broadly, we don't like to admit it, but it seems that completely amoral factors can be the cause of moral, amoral, or immoral behavior.

amelius 8y ago
How did you find out?
- theprotocol 8y ago
  I figured out that my problems were related to intestinal microflora because they became ten times worse after undergoing 3 courses of H. Pylori eradication therapy in the span of only a few months, and I never improved for years afterwards. That's the short version; in reality, I suffered for a decade and a half before I caught on that I could do something about it, and it took about 5 years after that to get any kind of positive result (which gave me the confidence to pursue it more seriously). S. Boulardii is fairly widely known as having a pretty broad range of positive effects, so trying it out was a no-brainer. I have tried many, many things over the years and have improved greatly. On a related note, it is common to assume that confirmation bias or the placebo effect would distort my judgment, but it turns out I am objective to a fault, as any objectively measurable intervention that I thought worked was later tested experimentally and confirmed my results. There is actually nothing wrong with taking a guerrilla approach to health if doctors can't help you, as long as you don't fall for the "alternative for alternative's sake" fallacy, and are willing to bear the costs of iterating through the most promising interventions and not being disappointed when most of them fail.
  - whitepoplar 8y ago
    Did you adjust your diet, or are you taking supplements?
    - theprotocol 8y ago
      Both. Regarding diet, I started observing the effects of everything I ate and adjusting accordingly, somewhat like an elimination diet. I was actually really clueless at first and had numerous deficiencies as a tradeoff for some of the symptoms disappearing (which was great but not sustainable). Over the span of years, this has improved and today I have no deficiencies and only relatively mild symptoms remain. The biggest breakthrough was limiting fermentation, by taking the FODMAP IBS diet to its natural conclusion, and eliminating everything that would ferment (and thus increase intestinal microorganisms, which for me were imbalanced). What prompted me to do this was trying 2 similar probiotic formulations, only one of which had FOS. The one with FOS caused a huge flare up. So I greatly reduced fermentable things ("resistant starches," "soluble fiber," "FOS," "FODMAPs", fructans, sugar alcohols...). Caprylic acid supplementation really reduced fermentation whenever I made a dietary mistake. I googled that idea and found the blog of Dr. Norm Robillard which advocates for a similar low-fermentation diet. Interestingly, the people who commented on his site seemed to divide into 2 camps: low-fermentation people vs. those who did well on the opposite diet (high starch / fermented foods). Adding S. Boulardii then reduced my symptoms further (brain fog, chronic intestinal inflammation) and I feel pretty decent now. I cannot yet figure out how to make it so my intestinal microflora is balanced enough that eating fermented and/or fermentable foods wouldn't destroy me. I'm still working on that in my spare time.
      - hugelgupf 8y ago
        Brain fog, intestinal inflammation. Sounds so very familiar. Do you have research notes, on methodology and things tried? I'm now very curious for myself.
        theprotocol 8y ago
        I don't have notes per se, and I am afraid to say something that can be considered advice. I can answer any question you might have though (assuming it's appropriate for me to do so here, I hope I don't annoy HN users).
CM30 8y ago
> I am also intrigued about what this means for criminality and how the line between illness and evil is likely to shift given the role of microorganisms in behavioral dysfunction; and more broadly, we don't like to admit it, but it seems that completely amoral factors can be the cause of moral, amoral, or immoral behavior. That line is already in trouble because of genetics research, psychology research, etc showing that people's actions are less based on deliberate choice than they'd like to believe. Of course, this all causes issues for society since (for good or bad), a stable society kinda needs to at least pretend humanity have some general sense of free will otherwise a lot of things (like the aforementioned justice system) stop making sense.
- impy 8y ago
  > That line is already in trouble because of genetics research, psychology research, etc showing that people's actions are less based on deliberate choice than they'd like to believe. I'd like to know more about this. Do you have sources for these?
  - brendanmc6 8y ago
    Sam Harris explores these topics in his book Free Will, I wasn't blown away by the read but would still recommended it if you already find yourself fascinated by the discussion.
- baddox 8y ago
  Isn’t this only “trouble” if you think of legal penalties like imprisonment only as punishment for your choices? If you think about imprisonment differently, perhaps as a means to protect other people from future crimes, issues like gut biome and “free will” aren’t really relevant.
  - jhayward 8y ago
    > If you think about imprisonment differently, perhaps as a means to protect other people from future crimes, issues like gut biome and “free will” aren’t really relevant. They are very relevant, because then the question becomes "how do we best protect everyone, including the offender". It's highly unlikely that imprisonment is an appropriate medical treatment or harm minimization procedure for a medical condition.
wufufufu 8y ago
I don't see that species in the article. How did you learn about that tropical species of yeast, and how long have you been taking it? What was your digestion/appetite like with and without that supplement?
- kaitai 8y ago
  Not the parent poster, but I learned about S Boulardii from some German studies of probiotics. Boulardii at one point was one of the few that showed benefits in randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trials. That was a while ago so don't know what the state of the research is now.
redcalx 8y ago
I am very interested in learning more. I will Google etc. of course, but if there are links, blog posts or bits of info you would be willing to share I would be most grateful. Thanks.
erikpukinskis 8y ago
It also casts religions with dietary restrictions in an interesting light.
- jlg23 8y ago
  Which major religion forbids yeast intake (and how would you guarantee that) and from which angle does one shine light on a people united in faith but with distinct local food (and yeast) sources to make it "interesting"?
  - codeddesign 8y ago
    Look at the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Their belief isn’t necessarily yeast but dietary standards in general. Promotion of a vegetarian/vegan diet, and removal of alcohol, coffee, and sugar since the late 1800’s. As far as I know the dietary standards include the promotion of the effects of gut bateria, and the ill effects of eating things like warm bread but not necessarily removal of yeast.
    - celticninja 8y ago
      I don't think that seventh day Adventist church is necessarily an example of being we'll adjusted
      - atomical 8y ago
        Just living the longest.
    - atomical 8y ago
      You're really reaching here.
  - justinator 8y ago
    The Catholic Church uses unleavened bread for the Host. It's symbolic, but somewhat of an interest in this thread.
nyc111 8y ago
@theprotocol thanks for this detailed explanation. Very helpful.
- dcx 8y ago
  Adding my thanks to this. I have IBS and have done a ton of self-experimentation over the years to fix my symptoms (with reasonable success). I totally get what you mean about free will and being unable to think straight when your digestive system is not managed. This is an interesting pathway that I had not discovered yet; from my initial reading it looks like the mycobiome is somewhat at the cutting edge [1]. [1] https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2607/6/1/22/htm https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2607/6/1/22/htm
gboudrias 8y ago
Interestingly, almost no one in NA justice systems talks about evil. The causality between life events leading to crime is often ridiculously clear, and choice barely factors into it. Believing in evil is its own kind of privilege. I for one have now seen a lot of criminal cases, and I've only seen sick people and people following the path laid before them. No evil in sight, but the concept's very existence allows for a certain social stability, to the detriment of some in favor of others.
- berberous 8y ago
  I tend to be a bleeding heart and agree that many cases of criminal behavior are mental illness or environment/circumstances, but I still think there is a spectrum of morality out there -- not sure what you mean by "evil" exactly, but certainly a spectrum where people can range from high on empathy and kindness to those who care much less about others and are more amoral or even sociopathic.
  - hnuser1234 8y ago
    I agree, but let's go deeper... I'd wager is there is a way to rank "empathy/kindness" in a more objective way, and that the current social environment is distanced from that objectivity. Now even if we could perfectly, objectively rank it, should we immediately jail the bottom 1/3/10%, or should we wait for them to commit a crime? Should we give lighter sentences to more empathetic people who commit crimes, assuming they had better reasons to do it?
    - tonyedgecombe 8y ago
      We are starting to understand the parts of the brain that empathy originates from. The whole question gets more complicated when you realise that these regions could be diminished through no fault of the individual.
- ohiovr 8y ago
  Reminds me of the Monty Python sketch when the sketch artist police admit society is to blame and proceed to arrest everyone.
harigov 8y ago
Have you tried helminthic therapy by any chance? Also would you care to share your current treatment protocol? I am in a similar position with lots of dietary allergies and I am considering doing helminthic therapy because it seems to have a lot of success stories.
yellowbuilding 8y ago
Can you recommend a brand?
seren 8y ago
On your second point, there is an article on The Atlantic, that is worth reading in my opinion : the Brain on Trial (2011) [0] It explores some case of brain malfunction leading to various criminal cases and what it means for free will (or lack of). Really makes you wonder what freedom do we really have. [0] https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/07/the-brain-on-trial/308520/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/07/the-bra...

kanishkdudeja 8y ago

There's no free will :)

theprotocol 8y ago
I think there is free will, but like most things in life, it is a privilege not everyone has; many people are constrained by invisible shackles. I would wager that evil still exists, but it requires full awareness of what one is doing when perpetrating it, and so it is more rare than we think. (Of course, this is just an opinion.)
- eeZah7Ux 8y ago
  > I think there is free will ... many people are constrained by invisible shackles This is a contradiction. "Free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will
  - theprotocol 8y ago
    That's entirely consistent with what I said: many people don't have free will. But free will does exist.
- rexpop 8y ago
  This is an extremely articulate and beautiful perspective. How did you acquire it?
  - theprotocol 8y ago
    I'm probably gonna get downvotes for appearing to bask in this attention (which I didn't expect). In this case it's based on a heuristic. I can't at all model human will so it seems reasonable to start with it as infinite (since it's so vast and appears virtually limitless, the very reason I can't model it in the first place) and model in the constraints. edit: also, I am a Christian and that probably factors into my view subconsciously, although I am certain many non-Christian views would arrive to the same conclusion.

salamanderman 8y ago

I'm not too keen on the discouragement against self experimentation at the end of the article in this case. Self experimentation has greatly improved insulin pump technology in the past few years, and this situation has much much less risk.

chapium 8y ago
How good are most experiments with a sample size of 1? Can the data gathered be independently verified?
- hanniabu 8y ago
  It can be verified by others self experimenting with a sample size of 1, creating an aggregated larger data set. A type of decentralized trial, if you will.
  - dpatrick86 8y ago
    Some research is adopting this pattern too. A great example is Dr. Satchin Panda's clinical trial on time-restricted eating. You self-select an eating window and then document it through the app. Pretty cool stuff. mycircadianclock.org
- TheAceOfHearts 8y ago
  When you are suffering from some chronic disease you really only care about finding a solution that works for you. If there was a place where one could submit anecdotal experiences then you could analyze that data and use it as a basis for professionally run medical experiments. For example, if 1000 people said X food triggered symptoms of severe depression for a few hours after consumption then a professional could look at that and say "this is something worth looking into". You would be correct in remaining skeptical of individual claims which haven't been carefully verified, but you would be a fool to just ignore and discard those claims. Mikhaila Peterson is one example of an individual that was suffering from serious chronic problems who found a solution that appears to work for her. She's now on a carnivore diet, which means she only consumes meat and water. Now, that doesn't mean that everyone should go out and start imitating her, but it sure as hell sounds like something that medical professionals should look into.

chippy 8y ago

Reading about toxoplasma (a parasite of rats which can infect humans and alter their behaviour), I recall something about the common cold (a virus) and behaviour. My memory is fuzzy but there was a study that indicated that those with initial stages of a cold seek out human contact more and in the case of women, show more skin. The implication is that the virus seeks to replicate by altering our behaviour to transmit it to as many people as possible and the researchers speculated it could also mean that the common cold might lead to an increase in sex and also becoming a sexually transmitted virus.

vbuwivbiu 8y ago
"the virus seeks to replicate" variants of the virus that caused their hosts to socialize more replicated more
- zumu 8y ago
  Kind of a tangent, but the way you phrased it, while much more technically correct, is totally roundabout and unnatural to a native English speaker. I've often postulated that the necessity of a Subject in English sentences causes us to inadvertently project agency in our descriptions of events / phenomena that in reality don't have an "actor" in a meaningful sense. It's fascinating to consider to what extent this false notion of causation and agency may constrain a native English speaker's understanding of the world.
  - vbuwivbiu 8y ago
    I completely agree it's ungainly - maybe this is better: "host-sociability-enhancing variants replicated more"
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > Kind of a tangent, but the way you phrased it, while much more technically correct, is totally roundabout and unnatural to a native English speaker. As a native English speaker, I disagree; it is a perfectly natural way for the intended message to be communicated in English. > I've often postulated that the necessity of a Subject in English sentences causes us to inadvertently project agency in our descriptions of events / phenomena that in reality don't have an "actor" in a meaningful sense. A subject need not be an (semantic, much less also self-willed) agent (and, when it is, it can , and misleading anthropomorphization is in no way a peculiarity of English speakers. “Evolution favored variants which enhance host sociability” has a subject, which is a semantic (but not self-willed) agent. “Variants which enhanced host sociability are favored by evolution” has a subject, which is the patient rather than the agent. Both are quite natural English expressions, and (unlike attributing will to the virus) accurate (or, at least, describe a plausible phenomenon.)

amelius 8y ago

Perhaps a stupid question but can't they run some kind of differential analysis on blood values to find out what could be causing the effect on the brain? (I.e. take blood samples before and after introducing gut bacteria)

ben_w 8y ago
The impression I get is the biology is so messy that, even if that passed an ethics committee, they would still have difficulty isolating the stuff they were interested in from other effects they couldn’t control for. It’s not impossible, but it is very expensive. This is partly why medical tech takes about 10-15 years to go from invention to deployment.
- Something1234 8y ago
  Why would a blood analysis be difficult to get pass an ethics committee? I get the confounding factors bit, but blood analysis seems to be a common practice.

milliaan 8y ago

my neighbor's mother makes $64 hourly on the laptop. She has been out of work for five months but last month her payment was $15080 just working on the laptop for a few hours. Go to this web site and read more.....www.geosalary.com

TheAceOfHearts 8y ago

I've encountered a fair bit of research and anecdotal stories showing how gut bacteria can have all sorts of crazy effects. It really makes you wonder how many conditions could be prevented or treated by dietary changes and supplements. I already wrote this in a response, but Mikhaila Peterson really opened up my eyes to the big impact diet can have on your health. To anyone that hasn't heard of her, she switched to a carnivore diet and many of her severe lifelong symptoms appear to have gone away. Recently I started considering the possibility that being fat could actually a symptom in some people. Controlling your weight is really easy when you're fairly healthy, but when you're sick it can become much more challenging. I used to be fairly critical of fat people, thinking that it was laziness, but I think the numbers are just too large to chalk it up exclusively to any single thing. There's also a lot of fat people that work incredibly hard and they excel at tons of things, which brings the laziness hypothesis to question. It's entirely possible that laziness plays a role in some, but when you take a high-resolution view of the world it's rare to find single-variable answers to complex problems. We also know that your mouth bacteria can have a huge impact on your dental health. There's people that barely have to brush their teeth to maintain perfect dental health, and others that still manage to get cavities despite following fairly rigorous routines such as brushing and flossing after every meal. I'll note it's been a few years since I last looked into this claim so take this comment with a grain of salt. Trying out probiotics seems fairly safe and it could have hugely positive effects on your health. The sibling comments from theprotocol are just one example. To add an anecdote, I recently started taking probiotics and the first thing I noticed after a few days was that I no longer felt tired after eating. I've experienced a few other positive changes, but I haven't been taking them for long enough to feel confident that those changes can be attributed exclusively to the probiotics. My biggest issue with probiotics is that finding good information about different products is fairly difficult. I basically just picked a box at random out of all the choices available. Does anyone have suggestions of good book on this topic? I've seen The Mind-Guy Connection and The Good Gut floated around a bit, but they have mixed reviews and the scientific rigor behind some of their claims seems to be under question.

hyperpape 8y ago

I have not read much on mouse models of autism, but I seem to recall an undercurrent of scepticim in comments from autism researchers. Here is one article to that effect: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/03/the-limits-of-studying-autism-in-mice/556109/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/03/the-limi.... Certainly research on mouse models of autism is a big deal: I see summaries of new such studies multiple times a week.

yasp 8y ago

Possibly of interest. https://www.wheatbellyblog.com/2018/04/make-l-reuteri-yogurt/ https://www.wheatbellyblog.com/2018/04/make-l-reuteri-yogurt... https://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/70456-lactobacillus-reuteri-atcc-pta-6475-most-potent-thing-ever/ https://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/70456-lactobacillus-re...

OliverJones 8y ago

Running this kind of article in a general-audience magazine takes a lot of guts (no pun intended) after all the trouble caused by another article about autism. That was a bogus paper in The Lancet in 1998 published by Wakefield et al. That paper, proven false, asserted a connection between Measles-Mumps-Rubella vaccine and autism. But the effects of that paper linger on among conspiracy theorists. Let's hope this one doesn't have similar consequences. Meanwhile, as a guy "on the spectrum" I'm going to try a subjective bioassay of L. reuterii. Can't hurt.

theprotocol 8y ago
If you have trouble with histamines, watch out. It actually can hurt: https://www.athinkingpatient.com/probiotic-l-reuteri-mast-cell-activation/ https://www.athinkingpatient.com/probiotic-l-reuteri-mast-ce...
partiallypro 8y ago
Sure, but I think people taking a probiotic is on net, much much much less damaging than people not vaccinating. I think a lot of studies show your gut reject most OTC probiotics or they are DOA and thus don't work.

the8472 8y ago

Gut bacteria may offer a treatment for autism in mice.

kokey 8y ago
Treatment of mice with autism-like symptoms. That said, this research actually genuinely attempts to research causation, where most of the other studies I've seen linking gut microbes and autism are essentially only demonstrating correlation. Anyone who has spent any time trying to make a picky autistic child eat a varied diet will not be surprised by this correlation.
martincmartin 8y ago
And therefore, it may (or may not) offer one in humans.
- TaupeRanger 8y ago
  That's a vapid statement. Everything may or may not be a treatment for any ailment.
  - diffeomorphism 8y ago
    Context is important. The post it replies to says it "may offer a treatment for autism in mice." The not-at-all vapid statement is that one should be cautious in that even if it works in mice, there are many examples where this did not transfer to working for humans.
- calcifer 8y ago
  If something is "may or may not", then I don't think "therefore" is a valid conclusion.
pvaldes 8y ago
May offer a treatment for a disease/problem of mice that is poorly know. A problem that mice not necessarily share with humans.

objektif 8y ago

A bit off topic but what is the HN consensus on probiotics? Any brands you can recommend?

JacobJans 8y ago
Probiotics are generally too much of a "magic bullet" -- if you're serious about changing your microbiome, the most effective way is through dietary changes. What you eat is ultimately the vast majority of what your gut microbes consume; high sugar and high starch foods tend to lead to an unhealthy microbiome. Many people avoid grains for this reason as well. The types of bacteria that thrive in your gut varies depending on what you eat. High fiber is more likely to result in a healthy balance of gut bacteria. However, if you already suffer from a damaged gut, a high fiber diet can be difficult, so be sure to increase fiber slowly, and with awareness of how it affects your body. That being said, if you want probiotics, plain whole milk yogurt is the way to go. (If you can handle dairy.) I avoid the bifido type bacteria; though that is for very specific reasons. Acidopholus, l. casei, Lactobacillus bulgaricus and Streptococcus thermophilus are all fine, the latter two being the traditional yogurt bacteria.
carbocation 8y ago
They probably don't work. https://www.cell.com/cell/abstract/S0092-8674(18)31108-5 https://www.cell.com/cell/abstract/S0092-8674(18)31108-5
- delackner 8y ago
  The key quote here being: "[...] Lactobacillus-secreted soluble factors contributed to [...]compromised gut mucosal recovery, highlighting a need of developing aFMT or personalized probiotic approaches achieving mucosal protection without compromising microbiome recolonization in the antibiotics-perturbed host." They tested only multi-strain probiotics vs "aFMT" (fecal transplant). That is a far cry from saying "probiotics don't work".
  - carbocation 8y ago
    They're leaving the door open to them working if you match the right strain with the right person (this is their area of research, of course they would like it to work). But the study provides no support for that. In contrast, fecal transplants have been shown to be effective for some diseases.

En_gr_Student 8y ago

Folks I know were saying this a decade ago. Is this new?

treethought 8y ago
No it's not exactly new, but this study used a widely available strain of bacteria. Additionally, this study seems to dig deeper into the physiology of how the introduced bacteria ameliorates the symtopms of autism (improved ion flow causing social interactions to be more rewarding).
martincmartin 8y ago
TFA answers your question. "A study just published in Neuron ..."

noetic_techy 8y ago

My thoery: I'm inclined to think the link in autism might be caused by the prevalence of C-section births not passing the proper gut microbiome to some kids who are also genetically more inclined to autism but only if the gut is screwed up at birth. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4464665/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4464665/ Doctors nowadays do C-sections often for unnecessary reasons, such as expedience or shift changes or as a default because the believe its "safer": https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/01/19/arsdarian-cutting-the-number-of-c-section-births/ https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/01/19/arsdarian-c... The wrong micro-biome eventually builds up a toxic load that causes the onset of autistic symptoms. Most likely due to cell danger response (CDR) getting stuck: https://health.ucsd.edu/news/releases/Pages/2017-05-26-century-old-drug-potential-new-approach-to-autism.aspx https://health.ucsd.edu/news/releases/Pages/2017-05-26-centu... Out on a limb, I know. But likely the cause is probably going to come down to a cascade of preventable events and toxic loads causing some kind of malfunction in those who are already gene compromised.

coss 8y ago
Surely, a correlation would have been found by now? Any data on it?
abledon 8y ago
Also less women are breastfeeding, a process which also gives probiotics
- elliekelly 8y ago
  Yes, this is hugely important for a child and our laws in the U.S. do not give families adequate support to allow most women to be able to provide this crucial care for this children.[1] It's difficult for many women working white collar jobs and almost impossible for women who work minimum wage jobs.[2] This systemic problem is going to have long-term public health effects that we have yet to even comprehend. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3020209/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3020209/ [2] https://qz.com/1034016/the-class-dynamics-of-breastfeeding-in-the-united-states-of-america/ https://qz.com/1034016/the-class-dynamics-of-breastfeeding-i...

fabrice_d 8y ago

A very approachable book on the topic by Giulia Enders is "Gut: The Inside Story of Our Body's Most Underrated Organ" (https://www.amazon.com/Gut-Inside-Story-Underrated-Revised/dp/1771643765/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1543799970&sr=8-1_ https://www.amazon.com/Gut-Inside-Story-Underrated-Revised/d...

aagha 8y ago
Enders does a great (and entertaining) Ted talk on the Gut here - https://www.ted.com/talks/giulia_enders_the_surprisingly_charming_science_of_our_gut?language=en https://www.ted.com/talks/giulia_enders_the_surprisingly_cha...

hannob 8y ago

The whole article is about a study on autistic mice. Except that there's no such thing as an autistic mouse. Trying to apply the diagnosis of autism to a mouse is so beyond ridiculous.

lubesGordi 8y ago
There is a clear impact of gut bacteria on behavior, that's pretty much all you need to start deriving value from the experiments.
twtw 8y ago
Care to share your reasoning? - the article describes the symptoms in mice that the researchers observe, and it seems like a reasonable place to start. Or do you just prefer to disparage the work of these researchers, without explanation?
- csdreamer7 8y ago
  Agreed, too many people state things without bothering to prove it. This study may flag people's bullshit meters, but simply stating mice can't be autistic is a poor way to do it. If anyone can cite research on if mice can develop autism or not I would love to see it. Edit: there is a study published by Nature mouse models of autism with behavioral genetics. https://www.nature.com/articles/4002082 https://www.nature.com/articles/4002082

LTjoker 8y ago

The American diet has always lacked fermented foods. Once I fixed this, everything started working again. Now I have to actively avoid Americans that don't understand this. Some have such strong feelings, adverse to trying new things. I've been on the receiving end of lectures many times about how my food is rabbit food. Or it "Doesn't have enough protine."

cobythedog 8y ago
There is no "American diet" as far as I have experienced. Once you travel around the country you find vastly different eating habits and diets.
rootusrootus 8y ago
I thought yogurt was quite popular? Even sauerkraut isn't really uncommon in America. But I struggle to even think what would constitute an "American Diet" unless you're using that to refer to someone who just eats hot dogs and hamburgers.

aheilbut 8y ago

Rather, gut bacteria may affect certain social behaviours in mice.

throwaway487551 8y ago
How this is related to humans? What is autism in mice in the first place? What kind of fucking degenerates are "studying" or "modeling" a cross-species "mental" disorder??? On species with an almost unrelated brain structure as a "model"?? What kind of bullshit is this?
- diffeomorphism 8y ago
  > How this is related to humans? Feel free to experiment on humans first before trying mice. > What is autism in mice in the first place? Social behavior, measurable effects you would also use for diagnostics in humans etc. > What kind of fucking degenerates are "studying" or "modeling" a cross-species "mental" disorder??? People who are smarter than you, obviously.

intralizee 8y ago

Free will is an illusion and thus choices don't exist.

test6554 8y ago
If you assume free will is an illusion, then it would make more sense to treat those who threaten society as faulty machinery and scrap them. Assuming people can admit and learn from their mistakes means you can focus on rehabilitation and treat them with dignity.
- intralizee 8y ago
  No, it makes more sense to fix the broken system that resulted in the faulty machinery and to fix the faulty person as well. If one cannot fix the person, it doesn't make sense to scrap them if we put humanity at the highest regard with understanding free will is an illusion. We would just have to prevent the person from being able to do the wrong and understand punishment is against humanity in the equation with handling the person.
  - rhizome 8y ago
    Wouldn't the choice to fix a broken system require free will not to be an illusion?
    - intralizee 8y ago
      Whatever comes is destiny in our reality and when you understand free will is an illusion.. I did not have the ability to a different person and communicate something different today (same as you). Basically the needed events have to occur and similar to anything that humanity adopts as knowledge & way of life.
      - SZJX 8y ago
        Not sure what you're trying to say here at all. Apparently you can't keep your extreme position logically coherent. I agree that the idea of "free will" might have been exaggerated too much especially in the US tradition, and I think people here generally agree. But taking a position of complete denial is likely not sound either. No need replying to everybody trying to defend your point. That in itself is a bit weak.

z3t4 8y ago

Food and digestion is an interesting area. There are a lot of new research being done. And theories that suggest our food intake can explain many symptoms and diseases. Because the food market is so huge, I'm afraid we'll see a lot of pseudo science and mumbo jumbo in the near future. So make sure you have the bullshit detector on. The Nestle baby milk scandal comes to mind, where doctors get a kick-back from recommending certain products. When you see news article like this one, and others recently, it will be hard to question future miracle products and supplement recommendations.

intralizee 8y ago

I remember reading about how the psychiatrists in Russia, would forcibly place persons with schizophrenia into a situation where they would have to fast for an extended period of time and being a month or longer. Seems like they were on the right theory.

mg794613 8y ago

I. Don't. Want. Treatment. I come from a poor family, with amazing parents, but with limited resources. And sorry to say it in a time where autism "is a disease that needs to be eradicated", but I have my whole current living standard to thank of being a autistic.

rootusrootus 8y ago
Not everyone is high functioning. A friend of mine with a nonverbal autistic daughter might take a different view if offered a treatment.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

Nasrudith 8y ago

Wouldn't all of the autism cure cranks out there have gotten actual results other than dead children if this were true? Digestion and diet have kind of been a fixation for them along with them along with chelation - anything to avoid the heritability elephant in the room.

dragonwriter 8y ago
> Wouldn't all of the autism cure cranks out there have gotten actual results other than dead children if this were true? Probably not; systematic empirical investigation isn't exactly their thing, so even if their intuition (or deflecfion, depending on how you look at it) was in the right neighborhood (diet and digestion if gut bacteria offer some real help), doesn't make it particularly likely that they’d stumble on to the right thing.
tomjakubowski 8y ago
Diet itself seems pretty heritable, at least for children. Up to a certain age, we generally eat what our parents tell us to, and that is generally pretty similar to what they're eating.
- Nasrudith 8y ago
  It is environmental however and mutable. Wouldn't that imply that if the then the bad old day practice of 'take the developmentally disabled kid from her mother because she is clearly to blame - and into an institution' would have had a positive impact. There should be ample opportunities for diet to change even earlier on - incidents that seem like they should add up to documented evidence if there was something there. I mean even with a case with complications like scurvy - the vitamin C couldn't be measured and it was there in fresh food but not most preserved food and why citrus were the examples that could retain it. Of course there was also some astounding utter refusal to learn there.

gehwartzen 8y ago

Very anecdotal but for the first couple of years of my sons life I gave him l reuteri mostly because it is very well studied for showing improvement in infant colic (it’s whats in Gerber Soothe brand colic drops for example) It certainly worked wonderfully for that but his general mood was all around better and now at four he’s extremely social. Of course he could have been otherwise as well but we do have some family history on both sides with autism spectrum disorders. The specific brand of l reuteri that seemed best based on my research at the time is BioGaia Protrctis. Interestingly l Reuteri is also found in human breast milk.

nickpsecurity 8y ago
"Interestingly l Reuteri is also found in human breast milk." When I looked into breastfeeding, different sources said it had oxytocin in it which made people feel more connected or increased trust. Made me start wondering if society's break from breastfeeding might be causing a lot of social and family problems since the bootstrapping phase of trust wasn't there anymore. That's on top of how childbirth happens in hospitals treating it like industrial process. Now, you say that's in breast milk. Now I'm wondering if we can add the problems it might knock out to the list of negative effects of no breastfeeding.
- steve_taylor 8y ago
  Also think of the mothers who can’t breastfeed through no fault of their own. We could potentially improve baby formula to counter the risks of not breastfeeding.

beef234 8y ago

The strain used is specifically: Lactobacillus reuteri MM4-1A (ATCC-PTA-6475)

beef234 8y ago
Only commercial product I'm finding with this strain is Biogaia Gastrus, but please let me know if anyone locates it in anything else!
- zackmorris 8y ago
  I have been using the same for a week for leaky gut and feel better. It also supposedly fights H. pylori (the bacteria associated with stomach ulcers). I think I may have picked up a bad strain of cow bacteria from young cheese such as cottage cheese and casein in overnight protein supplements. I began having IBS symptoms a few years ago but didn't know what they were. I also developed a sensitivity to peanuts around the same time, which may have transferred to legumes and nightshades, which triggered rather severe bouts of acne and tendonitis, which lead me on the journey towards leaky gut and remedying it with a low carb/keto diet. Some other things that have helped are psyllium husk powder and good old fashioned prunes. Today my acne is completely gone and my joint pain is reduced but I have some redness that will probably take months to fade. I am noticing how important gut health is to overall health as I get older. I feel like maybe children express poor gut health in different ways, for example by asthma, allergies, type II diabetes, acne, ADHD/hyperactivity, autism, etc. It's looking like autoimmune diseases are tied to inflammation in the gut, which is exacerbated by poor western diets saturated with sugar/soy/corn and herbicides/pesticides like glyphosate (Roundup) which disrupt intestinal flora. This is an inconvenient truth for factory farming though so will probably take 5-10 years to show up in the literature and become mainstream knowledge.

throwaway487550 8y ago

What kind of fucking bullshit is this? Autism is a spectrum of compensating behavioral patterns that emerge as the way to diminish unusually high emotional stress (which is also a spectrum) due to genetically transmitted "imbalances" in a brain's structure (and/or biochemistry). So, nowadays every kind of fucking bullshit deserve the label "working hypothesis" instead of "gross incompetence"? BTW, autistic spectrum disorders are "hijacked" the most stable evolutionary strategy of "good looks" - quiet village beauties are carrying these alleles (presumably, product of inbreeding). There is no coincidence, that ASDs affects mostly boys. Motherly instincts, it seems, diminish (or compensate for) behavioral deviations. If one could come down to earth from the Ivory towers of abstract bullshit and look at the real world, the answers are out there.

throwaway487551 8y ago

throwaway487551 8y ago
Yes, yes, SJW, Code Of Conduct, etc. However, as one might observe, Mother Nature runs much more sophisticated and unbiased "natural experiments", so to speak. The as old as humanity strategy of quietly observing of what is often yield closer to reality results (better approximations, better hypothesis) than commercialized modeling based on wild disconnected from reality guesswork. Of course, gut bacteria could affect behavioral patterns, but it by no means the cause, may be an amplifier (a factor) but not even a partial cause. Anyone with an ounce of brain (which is used to be a prerequisite for a scientist) could see it clearly, just because autism is a human universal phenomena, while gut bacteria varies enormously from region to region.

deytempo 8y ago

Which means gut Bacteria may cause autism

throwaway487551 8y ago

prakashrj 8y ago

This is what happens and comes out from guts of kids with Autism. https://plus.google.com/photos/112611364634545455505/albums/5960963152806428513?authkey=COfd8Zj2oIzXmgE https://plus.google.com/photos/112611364634545455505/albums/... I am one of the few parents that could recover the kid from Autism. We have been crying wolf that it's a gut related issue, but mainstream is now slowly catching up.

prakashrj 8y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12923431 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12923431 Example that some of parents are trying to tell the world that Autism is a gut related issue.

throwaway487552 8y ago

In not so distant past many of weak-minded but talkative, ambitious and narcissistic people could have find their niche in any organized religion. Almost every fancy bullshit, as long as it fits the canon, could be accepted, praised and even rewarded. There were never a shortage of fancy bullshit. In the current age religions has been obsoleted, but weak-minded "creative" people are still here. So, science became a new religion, especially when it hit the wall of empiricism, a limitation, which has been realized by ancient eastern philosophers (Brahman is unattainable to conditioned intellect which could see nothing, but its conditioning). Modern day's notion of impossibility to break an abstraction barrier (see the wiring of a processor from the level of code) is the very same notion reformulated. Every bizarre bullshit could be framed as a hypothesis and published, giving a high social status of "theoretical researches" to its authors (instead of much more appropriate status of talkative idiots). It is due to social status, similar to those of a monk in medieval ages, which one's parents could buy for their children by paying them through a costly elite religious school. Nothing new under the moon. I personally prefer to see those disconnected from reality academics, who gave advice to Macron (based on disconnected from reality abstract notions) to tax the population to combat climate change, to be held accountable for all the damages caused by resulting riots and being forced to pay for their ignorant arrogance, but this will never happen, because academics are allowed to produce bullshit labeled as working hypothesis. The rest of us aren't.

throwaway487552 8y ago

Since when autistic spectrum disorders were redefined and reformulated? They used to be genetic brain structure/biochemistry related disorders with certain impaired social behaviors (which could be diagnosed using DSM) as their symptoms. How it is possible to "study" anything about human genetic disorders in a such unrelated model as mice, which does not have any cortex and other major areas, including language related one? Why treatment of the symptoms of unrelated disorder (any poisoning or radical gut disturbance surely affects behavioral patterns) is considered to be related to autism in humans, which has different causes, and manifests itself on a different brain structure and is unrelated to any gut bacteria whatsoever? Why this crap is considered to be a respectable science?

twtw 8y ago
Diagnosis of autism has never been based on specific genetic or biochemical causes or mechanisms. It is defined by its behavioral symptoms. > which has different causes, and manifests itself on a different brain structure and is unrelated to any gut bacteria whatsoever How do you know it has different causes, when the causes of autism have not been enumerated? > Why this crap is considered to be a respectable science? I'm glad you don't get to decide. Maybe this will turn out not to have any impact in humans, but why not let the research play out - that's science.
- throwaway487552 8y ago
  > How do you know it has different causes, when the causes of autism have not been enumerated? A couple of reasons. One is that I'm struggling with it my whole life. Not a cosplayer, but actual high IQ individual who suffered a lot as a child in some social shithole. Almost like in popular movies. Another reason is that I have studied some literature available and psychology in general. I could see other people with similar symptoms, I could see their parents and could identify who is the carrier, etc. Current consensus, especially in the context of today's SJW madness, is disconnected from reality and what is. Autism is clearly genetic, it runs in families for generations, it usually carried by pretty women and it is more common in rural areas all over the world. These are obvious, easily testable facts, embedded into cultures. Now who are you to fuking lecture me?

bjowen 8y ago

... in a mouse model. End of line.

stillbourne 8y ago

I am incredibly skeptical about these kinds of claims.