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American Entrepreneurs Who Flocked to China Are Heading Home, Disillusioned
- achow 8y agohttps://outline.com/rbNmG7 https://outline.com/rbNmG7
- samstave 8y agoInteresting - the lure of "making something" in Shenzen has been a little seed in the back of my head for years... (one of those secret little pipe-dream-fantasies that pops up every once in a while and consumes 'what-if' cycles, but quashed by reasonable-rational-realist-me, but entertained just the same) --- That said, one of the adaptations of this little fantasy that I have had, and wonder about how feasible it could be is; What if there were a group effort with a communal goal of accomplishing X in China... An informal start-up-market type model where you have agents in some silo categories, but all working together. Lets assume that the silos are "Design/Eng | Finance | ops | mfr-execution | sales" So you have local US agents who collab on a design of a thing - you have backers (can overlap), and ops facilitators who focus on where when how it will be sold -- and then you have mfr-execution agents who actually go to shenzen and get the deal done and made... finally a sales org. Kinda like a communal quirky?
- dqpb 8y agoIt would be better just to build a Shenzen in the US.
- notduncansmith 8y agoNow THERE’S an idea. What are the major hurdles to overcome in implementing this? EDIT: Looks like the efficiency comes at a high price.
- samstave 8y agoRelevant (reverse) HN-AMA: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18629299 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18629299 --- Welp, about 50 years of cheap, environmentally catastrophic manufacturing (lack of) regulations, a vast army of poor/slave-subsistence-level farmers who can CHEAPLY provide food - no IP laws, a mass ability to gather/import raw materials - hazardous working conditions, cancer, cancer, cancer - slaves, and a gumption of a population with a striving for life that is not nearly as lazy and entitled as anyone else on the planet. Just a start...
- ceejayoz 8y agoOHSA, intellectual property laws...
- dqpb 8y agoConvince the people with all the money that building a giant manufacturing center would have a favorable ROI.
- StillBored 8y agoNo, as much as I dislike Trump, a nice tariff could solve a lot of problems long term. Its after all how this country was built. Put in more economic terms, you should be taxing things you want to discourage. Taxing income/work, while providing free trade with locations that have lower tax structures _WILL_ force jobs and industries offshore. OTOH, a nice fat tariff on things you want to manufacture, and suddenly manufacturing them at home starts to make strong economic sense. Of course as evidence suggests that you also need a large enough market to assure that your not just paying 100x as much to support some inefficient factory.
- kaitai 8y agoOr you just decide you don't need to manufacture that thing after all. There are a lot of situations where "redesign so it doesn't need that version of the part" is cheaper than "build a US factory, train workers."
- 8y ago
- marcusjt 8y ago”just"
- dqpb 8y agoIt's not like we have to re-invent the industrial revolution, we just need to spend the money to set up shop.
- nerfhammer 8y agoIt's just that the West has decided that allowing cities to grow is a bad thing, and the exact opposite of that is what powers economic growth, in Shenzen and certainly in our own history as well.
- Ma8ee 8y agoIn what way has “the west” decided it is a bad thing to let cities grow?
- 51lver 8y agoPerhaps it could be some kind of shack where radio components could be found... Really though I think fast shipping will suffice for most people. Once we get delivery down to under an hour, in city, with reasonable component prices, we should be able to source what we need easily enough. I'm imagining something like jimmyjohns meets sparkfun (and now I'm drooling).
- samstave 8y agoI have a theory about what killed the radio-shack star: PACKAGING. Fucking packaging kills "hobby" interests. Radio shack became "random aisle from fry's electronics" pretty easily. Fry's is complicit in the murder of radio shack -- but the fact that they individually began packaging everything and selling things as expensive individual components in blister/cardboard crap - rather than in a much more organic manner really limited the Hacker energy. They attempted to bolt themselves to the "charging cable industry" -- (which deserves its own place in tech hell) -- and that failed. They were then reduced to a charicature of themselves when they were selling 'MAKE::' kits... I lament for the sould of what Radio Shack once could have been...
- ghaff 8y agoRadio Shack had an identity crisis for much of its history and going back to at least the 70s they were as much about selling mostly crappy audio, toys, etc. as they were about selling components. I suspect big box electronic retailers played as big a part in killing them as anything else. But there was also a period, during which Heathkits went away, when it became much more difficult to do interesting stuff as a casual electronics hobbyist at home. Things like Raspberry Pis, Arduinos, 3D printers, Linux, etc. arguably made a new generation of hardware hacking possible but those came later.
- enobrev 8y agoAre you trying to say that the TRS-80 wasn't a top-of-the-line luxury computer?
- trimbo 8y agoWisconsin is trying to do that and it's not going well. https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/29/18027032/foxconn-wisconsin-plant-jobs-deal-subsidy-governor-scott-walker https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/29/18027032/foxconn-wiscons...
- logfromblammo 8y agoThat was a political boondoggle from the start. What Wisconsin was trying to do was to become as corrupt as Illinois, and that's going quite well indeed. Kenosha-Racine just did not have the number and kind of workers required for the original promises to hold water, and the subsequent revisions only got more ridiculous. For brainy, high-tech work, the only nearby choices are Madison and Chicago. It has always been hyperbole and lies, told to sway votes. The powers behind it didn't expect to lose their statewide offices this quickly, though, so I'm not sure if their plan for the Foxconn site is still viable.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago"It would be better just to build a Shenzen in the US" Probably not. Imagine if you went to a flea market, but instead of comic books, hot dogs and used sofas ... you found all sorts of cheap, exotic component parts. Anything. Everything. For 10's of cents each. I'm close with a team making a product, and there are a few 'custom-ish' things they need, like a tiny microcontroller with camera that does some very basic processing as a sub-module. In America - that's a big deal. Hire a team, get some researchers to consult, do some iterations yada yada. In China some guy in a ratty, dirty, poor little corner shop has it! For like 40 cents in units of ONE! There's a massive 'secondary industry' of people making 'not rocket science but not trivial' gadgetry very fast, and on the cheap that is not going to be duplicated anywhere. Add in the tons and tons of cheap labour, with few labour laws. Add in the 10 hours 7 day crazy work weeks. No - Shenzen will not be duplicated. That said - it may be possible to expand the Valley in a more 'automated' 'high end' way. For example: 3D printers that are more amenable to 'short production runs' instead of just prototypes. Low cost / fast turnaround injection moulding. Quick turn around on smaller components. This might make it better for American firms doing quality high tech to churn out faster prototypes, first production runs, and later automated large runs. Doing this would take some champion leaders, maybe Cisco, or Google or a few others setting up shop, proving the way for others to follow.
- alvern 8y agoFor example: 3D printers that are more amenable to 'short production runs' instead of just prototypes. Low cost / fast turnaround injection moulding. Quick turn around on smaller components. This already exists in the North American market, I.E. Protolabs
- sonnyblarney 8y agoFunny you should mention them I was literally speaking to them this week :) Protolabs is nothing special really. The tech everyone uses for 3D printing, for quick turnaround injection moulding ... it's mostly the same old stuff. 3D printing is only good for a few units, unless what your making is very small and very expensive. Custom moulding is still a big leap - and if there are any iterations (and there will be) it's not cheap. And all of the 'fine' stuff is still done by hand. So I see 3 roadblocks: 1) Rapid iteration and availability of component parts 2) True cheap way to get from 10 to 20000 units i.e. before true mass production 3) 'programmable robot hands' i.e. a very easy to program robot arm/hands that is nimble enough to fold and cut fabric, assemble arbitrary things, wipe/clean surfaces.
- sambull 8y agoNot really, we need to figure out how to stop making stuff and contract economically for our grand kids to have a chance
- nickpsecurity 8y agoI'm surprised nobody countered you on patent law immediately. Shenzhen's biggest advantage for a R&D guy like me is that nobody cares about patents. Just come up with ideas, copy ideas, remix, whatever... it doesn't matter because whoever has the best product for their market will make the money. It can also serve markets better when vendors with patents refuse to give customers what they want. The iPhone clones letting you swap your battery easily are a good example. Nice documentary on Shenzhen if you want to learn more about its history, culture, and advantages: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGJ5cZnoodY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGJ5cZnoodY In the U.S., you get this instead: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_troll https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_troll https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corp._v._Motorola_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corp._v._Motorola_In.... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-27/oracle-wins-revival-of-billion-dollar-case-against-google https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-27/oracle-wi... https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2010/04/ibm-breaks-oss-patent-promise-targets-mainframe-emulator/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2010/04/ibm-b...
- xmly 8y agoAnd with all the pollutions?
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- abakker 8y agoYou should read “Poorly made in China”. There are people and companies that do this, but, typically not accessible to small, one off projects.
- coliveira 8y agoThe issue is, for any idea that you might have for doing business in China, there are tons of Chinese already doing that. And they know the market much better than Americans. Maybe there was a window, a few years after China became an important economy, when your dream was true. But nowadays Chinese people have much more knowledge and access to capital to do these things than American can even dream of.
- lyrachord 8y agoIt seems that genes of ruffian, swindler, liar and all other evils from exiles or settlers works.
- snaky 8y agoEastern European engineers are not.
- hguhghuff 8y agoAre any/many big companies considering relocating computer manufacturing out of China?
- 51lver 8y agoApple? I'm not finding anything about a solid commitment, but they have been talking of such for a long time.
- gscott 8y agoThis is something relevant https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/03/asia/china-leeks-economy-trade-war-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/03/asia/china-leeks-economy-trad...
- mathteacher1729 8y agoThey went to China, made tens of millions of dollars in profit, sold their businesses off at a fair margin, and now return to the USA to live what seems entirely likely to be the rest of their lives in all the comfort of whatever their millions of dollars can afford them.
- hn_throwaway_99 8y agoWhat? I read in the article that some of the companies barely broke even.
- fullshark 8y agoOP seems to be describing the hamburger shop owner.
- raverbashing 8y agoThe more "spoiled" and sheltered one is, the more they think things are the same as where you came from. There's also a lack of cultural awareness and an excess of "tourist mentality" ("look how funny these people look", "oh wow why was he rude to me", "can't he speak English", etc). The same thing happened with Russia a couple of years ago and unfortunately some didn't return home.
- ChuckMcM 8y agoAside from the general anti-China slant that is fairly common in the journal, I have yet to see a 'manage the market' to achieve results desired by the state to ever succeed, anywhere. Markets just don't work that way in my experience, they evolve, they change, and if you box them in they die. So the fundamental question is, "What did these people expect?" (and were thus disillusioned when they didn't get their expectation). Did they expect that they would be able to build large foreigner controlled businesses? Did they expect that their success would not be impeded by a desire on the part of political entities to craft a narrative? Did they expect to secure more wealth for themselves before they were shut down? I am always surprised by people who think they can do what they do in their home country in any other country and get the same results. But it is particularly true of people in the US it seems. If you don't really internalize how the laws, politics, and policies of a country shape what is, and what is not possible, you are setting yourself up to be disappointed.
- chaostheory 8y agoThe US is largely a country of immigrants, who in effect are risk takers. Even in times of war and famine, typically only a small percentage (approx 10%) of the population leave. In the past, our country may have taken the lion's share of immigrants compared to other nations.
- briandear 8y agoThe US still takes the lion’s share of immigrants.
- chaostheory 8y agoYou're right https://read.oecd-ilibrary.org/social-issues-migration-health/international-migration-outlook-2018_migr_outlook-2018-en#page24 https://read.oecd-ilibrary.org/social-issues-migration-healt...
- HillaryBriss 8y ago
- reilly3000 8y agoYes, and their odds of being kidnapped by the state just went up 1000% this week.
- dqhAR 8y agoI think you're referring to recent news of the arrest of a Huawei executive on request of US. Huawei is the biggest private company in China. In technology, its market share comes in second to Apple. In addition, the arrested executive (Chief Financial Officer) is the daughter of Huawei's founder. This event just light up a spark on an already tense situation and surely begs for a tit-for-tat decision from China. Meaning: the retaliation from China is expected to be about personal safety. So... more pressure to head out fast in case you're an American entrepreneur.
- reilly3000 8y agoThat is precisely what I was referring to, thanks for taking the time to provide context.
- supercanuck 8y agoI remember reading Phil Greenspun’s blog circa 2004 as a new grad and him alluding to people teaching their kids mandarin. I remember thinking, geesh, this guy is at Harvard and MIT, he must know more than me. I’m glad I never followed through with that.
- dirtybird04 8y agoMy first question whenever someone pushes forward an idea, regardless of how smart or popular they are, is how much the person benefits personally from the said idea.
- rchaud 8y agoDuring the dotcom crash of the early 2000s, there were similar comments in the vein of "glad I studied finance and not this computer science BS". The world is cyclical; what doesn't make sense today, may be obvious tomorrow. Condoleeza Rice learned Russian in college because that's what made sense in her time, especially if you pursued foreign service work. As Sec of State in the 2000s, she probably never had to use it in any official capacity. Come 2016, and knowledge of Russia is important once again.
- thevardanian 8y agoYou're acting as if "the general anti-China slant" isn't justified. The only reason China was tolerated so far is purely due to economic reasons, otherwise what China is today as a government shouldn't have been tolerated and, in facts, begs sanctions. China has done far more egregious transgression to be sanctioned for than Russia, but business/economic interests seem to outweigh that sort of action against China.
- blacksmith_tb 8y agoClearly China has done some iffy business transgressions (dumping, industrial espionage, etc.) though they've also provided plenty of bargain-priced manufacturing (I type this on a Mac made by Foxconn...). But there isn't any indication they've tampered with elections for example, so I think it's an overstatement to say they're "far more egregious" than Russia.
- bb88 8y ago> But there isn't any indication they've tampered with elections for example. So, other than Chinagate you mean? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_United_States_campaign_finance_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_United_States_campaign_fi...
- blacksmith_tb 8y agoI had forgotten about it, but your link says nothing was proven... so a bit different than more recent events[1] 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2018_United_States_elections https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_20...
- ngngngng 8y agoI'd like to introduce you to 62,979,879 people that don't believe there was any Russian interference in the United States last election.
- lamarpye 8y agoHow can this be? So many times I read in the comments on HN, that the US isn't a great place for entrepreneurs because of health care or something.
- sgt 8y agoChina is crazy. Check out the vlogger 'serpentza' and his sidekick 'laowhy86' on YouTube. After spending so many years working and living in the "real" China (different from Shanghai, Bejing etc) they have a unique perspective on China. Interestingly, they recently announced that they may be moving to the US and continuing from there.
- xiphias2 8y agoWhy is China crazy for not being able to provide the same quality of life as the country with the reserve currency? It makes sense that US is one of the easiest place in the world to live in.
- adventured 8y agoThe most interesting thing about China in that respect isn't that some parts of China aren't up to par with what you see in the US, UK, Germany, Sweden, or wherever in the developed world. It would be expected to take a long time to accomplish that, assuming it's possible for so many people to hit that standard of living at all. It's the truly extraordinary imbalance between the top ~100 million and the bottom 1.3 billion. ~200 million people living on $3 per day. And 800+ billionaires at the top. ~500 million people living on $10 per day or less, and two million millionaires at the top. It's a proclaimed Communist nation with the greatest inequality the world has ever seen. It simultaneously has a large quantity of among the richest people and the poorest people on earth, a very strange arrangement. The surprising thing is that China hasn't been far more aggressive when it comes to welfare redistribution. They could easily implement wealth taxes if they desired.
- paulcole 8y agoI've heard China described as: It's just like the United States. You've got a few hundred people who are billionaires, a bunch more millionaires, and then the rest of the "normal" upper, middle, and lower classes. Then add in a BILLION people who are living in poverty far below the lowest class.
- 8y ago
- ilamont 8y agoForeign businesses having to follow local rules is nothing new, whether it's in China, England, or Mozambique. China has, in the past, detained foreign executives accused of breaking local laws. There was this pharma case involving GSK in 2014 (https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/02/business/international/china-rules-glaxo-bribes-sex-tape-whistleblower-cautionary-tale.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/02/business/international/ch...) which found the company engaged in fraud in the country. GSK paid up $.5B and had to reform some of its practices as a result. What is troubling is when those rules are unevenly or unfairly enforced, are designed to give other businesses an unfair advantage, or are subject to additional requirements outside of the standard protocol. There's a good backgrounder on IP theft in China here (https://law.stanford.edu/2018/04/10/intellectual-property-china-china-stealing-american-ip/ https://law.stanford.edu/2018/04/10/intellectual-property-ch...). If you dig around it's not hard to find all kinds of horror stories involving "joint ventures" or unfair advantages given to domestic companies. I know someone whose relative was involved in a business dispute in China which resulted in that person being detained in a hotel without any charges filed at the behest of some local official. He couldn't leave the PRC until the dispute was settled to the satisfaction of the Chinese business partner.
- gigatexal 8y agohttps://goo.gl/images/HbXTru https://goo.gl/images/HbXTru What did you think would happen going to a place that is super corrupt, has an authoritarian government, and steals IP blatantly?
- k__ 8y agoMost probably thought that they would be lucky and become a poster child or something. "Look at this nice American, how he came to us and made big money!"
- bb88 8y agoAnecdotal evidence from a pinball factory in China from Strange Parts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnPhAn2_bjk&t=262s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnPhAn2_bjk&t=262s Leases on buildings have gone up in price. Regulations have been increased. But labor is still very high quality. After watching this video, I feel that high schools in the US and elsewhere would be better if they taught consumer electronics repair rather than shop class. There's still a lot of empty space to put electronic factories in the US. There's just not a lot of skilled labor.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago> After watching this video, I feel that high schools in the US and elsewhere would be better if they taught consumer electronics repair rather than shop class They'll never be able to compete with that one Uighur guy on the top floor of the Dinghao market in Zhongguancun. (this is how I got my Wii modded for 40 RMB, anyways)
- hn_throwaway_99 8y ago> I feel that high schools in the US and elsewhere would be better if they taught consumer electronics repair rather than shop class. Yikes, I hope you're joking! The cost of manufacturing consumer electronics has gone down so much that it's virtually impossible to have a viable repair business in the US - perhaps high-end laptops, Apple products, and very straightforward, limited repairs like phone screen repair, but that's about it. As another anecdotal data point, I volunteer in a thrift store, and by far the hardest donation to sell is electronics - most of the time we just trash/recycle it, even if it is in very good condition. People aren't willing to pay very much at all for tech that is even just a couple years old. Thus, if the average age of a piece of electronics needing repair is, say, 2 years, by that point the product will have probably depreciated most of its value. At that point the vast majority of people will just buy the latest and greatest.
- ryandrake 8y agoOn the other hand I recently fixed my home theater receiver with a handful of 20 cent capacitors, saving a multi-hundred dollar repair bill and/or throwing away the whole receiver. Basic electronics knowledge and soldering skill could help anyone at home. Just like being able to do light plumbing and electrical work comes in handy and will save you lots of money.
- unixhero 8y agoYup. Got ripped off by a major hardware component manufacturer there. They refused to release the significant safety deposit when they were obliged to. Not a great way to loose USD30000 for a startup[0]. Then we have the almost comical lack of quality assurance, and understanding of what quality means and is. Most of our significant efforts to set up a production line for computer hardware in Shenzhen failed. It didn't kill us, maybe some innovation and extra focus on our product and quality came out of it. It was, however, the fortune 500 client lawyers who saw to it that we met our demise (we were a "2 big clients shop"). [0] http://bergesolutions.com http://bergesolutions.com Eulogy: Now defunct. Had massively big clients. Too big for us to handle. Shipped about 5000 units and we filed several patents.
- aj7 8y agoIn dealing with clients three orders of magnitude larger than yourself, you need a "hook." Years ago, due to an electronic miskeying, I got to listen in as a company lead purchasing agent, who had a law degree, discussed with other purchasing agents how they were going to push us around, complete with disparaging comments about our size. We had provided a specialized piece of equipment that the company's employees were sometimes too lazy to perform preventive maintenance on, despite training. I never got on a plane unless the service contract check had cleared.
- jacquesm 8y agoWhat a pity, those are nice designs, a lot of work went into them. Maybe open-source the IP to at least salvage some of it, and to avoid the vultures living off your work?
- aj7 8y agoBusinesspeople might well be overstressing themselves with micro- and macroeconomic reasons behind China’s declining attractiveness to foreign entrepreneurs. Rather, we might simply be dealing with Han racism against westerners. In the beginning, western entrepreneurs were reluctantly “welcomed” when they had things to teach China, investment of almost any form was needed, and China was simply poor. The reluctance was papered over by good manners, and the possibility of unusual profits. Now, China is much richer and more sophisticated, and much of the teaching and raw development is over. Westerners are more clever about hiding trade secrets, and more willing to outsource expensive factors of production in their Chinese operations. In a country of political sophistication that only few Westerners perceive, they are being eased out, having never been considered a perennial fixture in society.
- microdrum 8y agoYou're right. And I'm surprised more Silicon Valleyers have not figured out that China, a country that has concentration camps going right now is racist.
- yourbandsucks 8y agoMaybe overlaying a specific tiny-slice-of-America worldview to a billion people on the other side of the world is a little bit... lossy. Just food for thought.
- mb_72 8y agoNot in this case. China, Japan, Thailand - all countries where no matter how well you speak the language, know the culture or how much you spend creating companies that employ locals, you will always be a foreigner and 'less than' someone born in those countries. On looks alone, you will never truly fit in. Compare and contrast to the USA, Australia etc, where no-one can tell you are not a citizen by simply looking at you.
- throwaway5yiu 8y ago
- Animats 8y agoAmerican entrepreneurs aren't needed in China any more. Enough people in China know how to do that now. More than enough.
- hackerbob 8y agoThere's a double standard. Rich Chinese are buying industries and property around the world, but secretly (or perhaps not so secretly anymore) have a problem with Western entrepreneurs owning things in China.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- crazy_monkey 8y agoWhat did people expect? You thought that it'd be another new world where the natives would just bow over and submit, letting you reap all the profits while keeping all the IP and rights?
- jimjimjim 8y agoFor as long as I can remember, the sales part of every organization I've worked for has been seduced by the "1 Billion Customers!" idea of China. that plus manufacturing with sweatshop style wages. And in every single case, after much pain, they realize that it just doesn't work like that. worst was an org that had their hardware cloned and sold (right down to knock-off pcbs). another, selling a hw + sw solution to a chinese client with 5000+ sites, initial phase was for 50 sites, with the client doing installation and first tier support. guess what. the project didn't go beyond the initial phase. but part of the requirements of the project was sharing of ip.
- rchaud 8y agoThat sounds a lot different from what's being discussed in this article. The article was more of a lament from mostly well-to-do Americans about how doing business in China is harder because wages went up in the decade since they landed.
- xmly 8y agoSo Tesla went there to open a giant factory? How smart musk is...
- housepapass 8y agoYou have been only posting pro-China and anti-US contents for a while
- onemoresoop 8y agoRe-posting this sad and yet amusing comment from RalphWise: This story helped me recall an article I read in the FT about 10 years ago. A Germ an businessman set up shop in China and hired locals to help him run the business. After about six months, he came to work one day only to discover he was fully cleaned out. No cash anywhere, all the books and inventory gone. His employees had figured out how his business worked, started their own business within his business, siphoned off the cash and profits and took him hook, line and sinker. When the locals were asked why they did it, they said it was simple..."he was a foreigner, and he deserved it."
- redwards510 8y agothe comma signifies a lot tho. they did it because he was a foreigner, period? or because he was a foreigner and a terrible, mean boss?
- whytaka 8y agoThe fact that the response started with it means that it was a sufficient cause.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- dragonwriter 8y ago> The fact that the response started with it means that it was a sufficient cause. That's a fairly odd interpretation; if there were multiple causes, none of which were sufficient without the others, one would still need to be mentioned first.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- debt 8y agoThis read like a joke until the end. So this is just some random anecdote that has literally zero details in it? I don't know what I'm supposed to take away from this, can someone help?
- jfjfjfkkkfjj 8y agoAs a Chinese national, I have never believed in that country. My personal observation is that the country has been getting worse since 2005. That’s why I left there or escaped. However ridiculous you think it is for Trump being a president, you see people make fun of him freely without being worried for retaliation. If you dare do the similar in China, or even sincerely criticizing politicians, you will be in trouble. This is my baseline test for a good/bad country. China has never gone out of the state of being a monarchy state it has been for thousands of years.
- eldavido 8y agoI went to China a few months ago and had similar thoughts: United States There's a lot more to say, but overall, the trip made me very optimistic about the future of the United States. China's cost advantage is disappearing. A 1.5-hour boat ride with a bit of transportation on both ends was almost $100 (US), and that was after we'd haggled them down. At those prices, cost advantages aren't a slam-dunk, and the distance (both geographic and cultural) start to weigh more heavily. Add in the trade difficulties, not just the tariffs but the "local partnership" requirements, ongoing government interference in the market, and lax attitude toward IP protection, and I don't think China is such a great deal anymore. I don't think Trump's dream of a huge US manufacturing industry will come to pass, but for high-skilled stuff, the case for staying in the US is stronger than ever, especially considering our great infrastructure, well-educated populace, and sustainable environmental practices. In sum, I think China is currently at its best, while the US is at its worst. They're coming off a long cycle of growth, while the US is eating itself alive with budget deficits, partisan conflict, and labor strikes. But as with people, the true test is how something does when at its worst, not when everything is smooth sailing. http://www.davidralbrecht.com/notes/2018/10/back-from-china.html http://www.davidralbrecht.com/notes/2018/10/back-from-china....
- xmly 8y agoDo not worry. US government is helping China, from building democracy to IP protection. They are urging China gov to accept high standard to make China a more powerful competitor.
- tgb29 8y agoThere is no court system in China to handle dispute resolution —- at least not like what exists in the US. I asked a businessman in China about dispute resolution recently, and he said it’s inconsistent and every province does it differently. There is a reason why in China many of the biggest businesses are located near where the government is located.
- rchaud 8y agoThere are millions of rural Chinese labourers that face daily document checks and discrimination from local authorities while working jobs in the city. I wonder what they would think if they came across this story and the worst thing that happened in it was that an American had to sell his upscale burger restaurant and complain about how unwelcome he felt in China.
- xmly 8y agoI highly doubt any Chinese who could not speak English could succeed in US. Of course, if you think opening a restaurant in Chinatown is a success, I am wrong then. So if you do not speak fluent Chinese, why are you supposed to be successful in China, especially when you are doing the things anybody could do?
- seanmcdirmid 8y agoMost of the foreigners in the article spoke fluent Chinese.
- xmly 8y agoAs fluent as native Chinese? There are a lot of foreigners working in US. But I do not think it is because they could speal better English, but because they have skills, especially engineering skills.
- seanmcdirmid 8y agoYes. Many foreigners working in China have 大山-level Chinese, enough to do business for sure. And yes, there are also foreigners working in China with specialized skills, but we don’t typically start companies there (I was one of the latter).
- ngcc_hk 8y agoStrange to make a distinction between foreigner and local. Do you know that even as successful as alibaba chair and be a communist as well, you still have to surrender your wealth if you were told. Totalitarian country is totalitaruan country. The only strange part how they mix some market with ultimate state control of everything’s successful so far.
- notacoward 8y agoWe've had some pretty strong "make tons of money in China" boosters right here on HN. Here's one. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18483412 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18483412 I wonder if their tune has changed.
- paulsutter 8y agoThe 1997 movie "Chinese Box" opens with Jeremy Irons character in Hong Kong autographing his book, "How to Make Money in Asia". After signing his name, he crosses out "Make" and writes in the word "Lose". So this isn't exactly a new trend.
- analyst74 8y agoWhat I get from the article: 1, foreigners are less worshiped in China than before, giving them less advantage over locals, and in many cases a disadvantage if they have not forged strong connections 2, businesses founded on exploiting cheap labour and laissez-fair regulation are facing a hard time 3, market is maturing and the overall economy is slowing down, there are fewer untapped opportunities and existing businesses are facing increasing competition Not to say that being a foreigner has no disadvantage, but if a Chinese entrepreneur fall into those categories, he/she will have a hard time succeeding too. In fact, if you ask Chinese entrepreneurs/business people today, chances are he/she will also tell you that it's getting harder to do business.
- contingencies 8y agoEntrepreneur in China since 2001 here. The big shift occurred in 2007 in the lead-up to the 2008 Olympics when China said "OK, enough foreigners" and tightened up the visa rules (which were admittedly extremely open). They never relaxed them again. This experienced reality perfectly conincides with the drop-off seen in the graphics in this article. IMHO there are three parts to the story the article misses: (1) The impact of the 2007 changes has now passed and stats across the board have stabilized or are picking up again. (2) China's first tier cities are now extremely expensive, which is a massive disincentive for small-scale foreign investors. (3) That Blue Frog chain's food is both terrible and expensive. Also there are have been many major macro changes in this time the article misses, like increased focus on anti-corruption, reforms toward digital tax, banking and governance systems, Belt and Road Initiative, cities now choking on cars, WeChat and mobile payment going from 0-100% penetration, omnipresent food delivery, etc.
- vfulco2 8y agoI am not a huge fan of established religions, grew up catholic, but when a society has no moral compass, endemic instability is a constant. There are reasons for the most violent of boom / busts besides all the actions of the "white devils".
- toasterlovin 8y agoFWIW, the civilization you’re referring to has been a continuous thing for roughly 3,500 years.
- jeremy_wiebe 8y agoI recently read a book about a man from the UK who went to China in the 80’s. He partnered with a US company to start investing heavily in China (mostly manufacturing). It is interesting because (aside from the regulation) it reads very much like this article (up to the paywall). The book is: Mr China by Tim Clissold
- nomoremaos 8y agoThe ignorant West is responsible for building up the global network of the Chinese autocratic regime. We hand them hard earned technology on a silver platter, we talk about China coming over from the dark side once they taste the other side, and the West bends over to allow China into the WTO for reasons that are still elusive. A communist regime should never be allowed to prosper in the way it has at the expense of Western ideals, rights and future opportunities. The beast exists because we feed it and allow it to prosper.