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Internal Tensions at Facebook Are Boiling Over

439 points by laurex 8y ago

_hardwaregeek 8y ago
Non AMP link: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/charliewarzel/facebooks-tensions-zuckerberg-sandberg https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/charliewarzel/facebooks...
- joshstrange 8y ago
  @dang can we please change the URL to this? The current one has full width text which is hard to read.
  - pferde 8y ago
    Full-width text is fine, I like not having miles of unused space on either side of an article. The problem is that an AMP page displays as empty if you refuse to let it execude arbitrary code within your browser.
  - laurex 8y ago
    Sorry about that, I'm usually careful. If it can be changed, I'm in favour.
  - sctb 8y ago
    Updated!
    - joshstrange 8y ago
      Thank you! Quick question, is there a good way to "summon" a mod? I've always used @dang to do it but they obviously aren't the only mod here, I just don't know the correct way to do it.
      - sctb 8y ago
        That doesn't do any summoning anyway, so please email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll be sure to see it.
lewisj489 8y ago
I find it quite (weird/funny/amusing) that BuzzFeed has been writing non-stop articles about Facebook. BuzzFeed was built on Facebook, and I'm not sure how far they would have got without them. But the year is nearly 2019 and Buzzfeed no longer relies on Facebook for users.
- pulisse 8y ago
  > BuzzFeed was built on Facebook [...] Buzzfeed no longer relies on Facebook for users. Both of these statements are false.
- mkirklions 8y ago
  I used to rely on reddit for traffic. Now I don't. Times change. Reddit quality has gone down too.
  - ALittleLight 8y ago
    What has replaced reddit for traffic for you?
    - hannasanarion 8y ago
      RSS. Pick the news that you want to see, not what an exploitative algorithm thinks you will click on. Feedbin is nice. Follow your favorite youtube channels, twitter users, newspapers, blogs, and webcomics there, and never look at a news feed again.
  - chapium 8y ago
    The biggest change i see in reddit is its not ron paul obsessed any more. In what ways has the quality decreased?
    - fooker 8y ago
      Mods on power trips ruining communities.
    - 8y ago
reaperducer 8y ago
This is my favorite part: Another former senior employee noted a growing sense of paranoia among current employees. “Now, people now have burner phones to talk shit about the company — not even to reporters, just to other employees,” they told BuzzFeed News. Facebook employees so afraid of Facebook spying on them, that they need burners. Presumably, not loaded with any Facebook apps.
- compiler-guy 8y ago
  More likely just phones without access to facebook's internal corporate network, which grants many more privileges to the app and the company than everyday facebook access gets. They likely also dodge accounts connected to the one their employer recognizes. Calling these "burner phones" is a little silly. They are just completely private, non-corporate phones. I've never trusted any company to either pay for my own phone or plan, if that requires allowing it special access.
  - iamdave 8y ago
    Calling these "burner phones" is a little silly. They are just completely private, non-corporate phones. So a phone used to duck surveillance from a powerful entity to conduct discussions about things you don't want that entity knowing about, colloquially goes by what other name then? I get it if the implicit association between a "real" burner phone and these devices might not be a complete and perfect parallel but I think here the term is apt (unless we're legitimately just talking about someone's every day personal phone, but that wasn't the impression I got-the article doesn't really talk more about what these devices are)
    - SlowRobotAhead 8y ago
      Meh, typically burner would be disposable. He’s arguing you don’t need to ‘burn’ this device after using. It’s just a normal phone that you can keep using. Burner-like if it works better for you.
      - 8y ago
baby 8y ago
Do employees at facebook really feel the heat? I'm just picturing management trying to find solutions (or to wait it out) while most other employees must be mostly going on with their work. In the end, most of the critics seem to miss the point that Facebook grew really fast, and just wasn't ready to police the world. A lot of it focuses on the negative aspects of Facebook conquering the world, but what about the positive aspects? Is there another app that, indeed, connects the world? It might not be clear to people here, who are not heavy users of Facebook and reside mostly in the US. But for me, I have hundreds of friends scattered around the world and Facebook has been the only way to keep in touch with them.I've met so many people through Erasmus groups and Communities on Facebook as well. No, the alternatives are not everywhere in the world.
- ori_b 8y ago
  > Do employees at facebook really feel the heat? Two words: Stock price. A big part of compensation is in stock.
  - ChuckMcM 8y ago
    This is the really bad part about equity compensation in a publicly traded company. When that stock starts devaluing rapidly it runs past even your "worst" jaded future predictions, and then it is depressing. Back in 1998 when a company I helped start was acquired by a publicly traded company, and by 1999 the stock price was over $100 and everyone was feeling "super good" about the future. The internal dialog goes something like this, "This may be an anomaly but damn! even if the stock drops to 50% of its value I'm still doing great!." In my case the stock dropped in value to below a dollar a a share, 99%+ drop. That feels really really horrible, especially if the future doesn't have anything in it that would rescue or recover the value. Even though there was nothing that I personally could have done (legally) to change the outcome, as an engineer and a person who solves hard problems, it made me feel like a total failure. Like I had let down my family, my friends at work, and people who I knew who had bought stock in the company as a sign of confidence in me. It is really hard to understand that kind of feeling until you've been through it I think.
crunchlibrarian 8y ago
With everything that has happened in the past few years, I'd be kind of scared of the people who choose to remain. They must either be true kool-aid drinking zealots or... something more sinister. The article presents it as a choice between leaving or fully buying in. What is the mindset of the person who is fully buying to Facebook, today, at the end of 2018?
madhadron 8y ago
The sources here appear to be leaks from a group that is the internal equivalent of 4chan and former employees who have an axe to grind. The portrait painted from them does not match the reality I experience day to day in any meaningful way.
- deleted 8y ago
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- dawhizkid 8y ago
  Reality is most people work where they work because of the money...few are thinking philosophically about the moral/ethical implications of their work. The only reason stories like these might be interesting is because tech had up until now been perceived as this anti-Wall Street destination for smart people with a conscious. Now, it's clear people who choose to work at FB and other tech giants are not necessarily any nobler, and just as greedy, as those who choose to work at Goldman Sachs or Bridgewater.
- marricks 8y ago
  What is your experience of how employees are handling the barrage of major public scandals then? Big tech company surveillance culture is well documented[1] and the outside pressure against FB seems INTENSE. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/mar/16/silicon-valley-internal-work-spying-surveillance-leakers https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/mar/16/silicon-v...
  - madhadron 8y ago
    > What is your experience of how employees are handling the barrage of major public scandals then? For real problems, like Cambridge Analytica or the recent API token breach, by trying to fix whatever is broken. A lot of the other scandals honestly don't seem to have any basis in reality that we can discern, so we spend a fair amount of time looking puzzled, then shrugging and getting back to work.
- pavlov 8y ago
  The media portrayal of Facebook feels roughly equivalent of how Microsoft was seen ten years ago. The tech industry seems to live on these ten-year rollercoaster cycles in perception. (Zuckerberg isn't Ballmer though – I don't think he's going anywhere. Besides, although the tech press likes to credit Nadella for everything because it makes for a convenient rags-to-riches, Ballmer laid the foundation for Microsoft's present success.)
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GauntletWizard 8y ago
I will not name him, but I had a friend who worked at Facebook. At one point, he talked shit about the company to another employee in a facebook chat. His HR representative quoted said chat at him in a meeting. Facebook will claim that this is ethical because your Facebook account is linked to the work systems and therefore your chats are company property. I will pass judgement - even if it had been talking shit on a purely internal chat application, such as a corporate slack, it would not be okay for HR to bring up talking shit - They would need to have had a dang good reason (A complaint from the other party of the chat that you had made threats, reason to believe you were discussing illegal activity or actively causing the company harm). What Facebook did was absolutely immoral, and it is clear that it is standard company policy.
- deleted 8y ago
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- babygoat 8y ago
  I don't condone what Facebook did, but I can't believe anyone would trust them not to.
  - draw_down 8y ago
    Trust is one thing, but if there is any truth to that story it is downright pathetic on their part.
- CGamesPlay 8y ago
  When I worked there 4+ years ago, all employee:employee facebook messenger conversations (on production www.facebook.com) came with a little red circle, with alt text saying "employee to employee conversations are recorded". So I wouldn't have been surprised by this in the least.
  - lawnchair_larry 8y ago
    But isn't it creepy that they were proactively monitoring them and reading for negative comments? Then reprimanding the participants for feelings they expressed privately to another individual? That's behavior one might expect from North Korea.
deleted 8y ago
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malandrew 8y ago
> full-blown anti-media rhetoric, saying that the press is ganging up on Facebook I don't like facebook, but they are not wrong to feel this way because that is exactly what the media is doing because it is profitable. If it bleeds it leads. The media, like facebook's newsfeed, has the greatest engagement and ad revenue when they are actively selling controversy. Manufacturing or even just exaggerating controversy is at fault here. There really is no difference between everything shitty about Facebook and the news media these days. They are both afflicted with the same disease.
- IfOnlyYouKnew 8y ago
  Yeah. Except "the media" is reporting actual facts, that not even Facebook is disputing. And you're making some case that would be true no matter what the media focusses on. So: why Facebook, and not Apple? Why Volkswagen, and not Toyota? Why Michael Cohen, and not some other lawyer nobody had ever heard of?
- ngcazz 8y ago
  Sorry, but this is BS. The media have a social duty to report on these goings-on. FB fucked up big time and this should be scrutinized fully. Sure, players might act out of self-interest, but you're just buying into that gross and loutish anti-journalist rhetoric the far-right is pushing.
jhcl 8y ago
I thought that that kind of toxic culture just surrounded the political parties but by the looks of it is a basic part of the American (business) culture. If a big company like that has employees like that (i.e. without conscience) we're in for a ride.
- kazen44 8y ago
  from a non US perspective, lets say "cruel bussiness culture" is usually associated with american companies. The main thing that seems to foster suchs an enviroment is the lack of worker represenation in US companies. concepts like works councils[1] seem totally foreign to many US companies. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council
kraig 8y ago
good
gnicholas 8y ago
> People at Facebook are focused on building products that help people connect and have a positive impact in the world. I don't remember seeing that last part before! Does this mean that they don't want to connect people who (they believe) will have a negative impact on the world?
- smt88 8y ago
  I think "have a positive impact' is referring to the products, not the people. Facebook has/had a near-religious devotion to the idea that connecting a globe of strangers is inherently good. I strongly disagree.
  - erobbins 8y ago
    Boz's 'the ugly' that got leaked is probably the best well known documentation of this cult. My whole time there it creeped me out.
- FeteCommuniste 8y ago
  It's kind of ambiguous. Could be "products that (help people connect) and [that] (have a positive impact in the world)" or "products that help people (connect and have a positive impact in the world)."
  - gnicholas 8y ago
    I also noticed that it has only one meaning as written, but two meanings if another "that" were added. If it weren't a company spokesperson providing a response "on the record", I'd say it goes either way. But someone who is paid to be careful with his/her words may be doing just that. I'll be curious to see if this pops up again in the future.
Mc_Big_G 8y ago
"...the only survival strategy is to quit or fully buy in." I hope anyone worth their salt quits. As a hiring manager, it would be hard to overlook "fully buy[ing] in" to FB after how apparent it's become that they're fundamentally evil.
- diogenescynic 8y ago
  I think it's already happening. I've received a few emails from recruiters about jobs at Facebook in the past few weeks and before this hadn't received any. Same with my wife. It's obviously anecdotal, but we were both surprised to get emails from recruiters for the same company a few weeks apart. My first thought was that they must be having more trouble hiring people.
Animats 8y ago
The actual documents the UK Parliament pried out of Facebook are here.[1] Excerpts: Exhibit 172 – Discussion of changing ‘read call log’ permissions on Android From email dated 4 February 2015 Michael LeBeau – ‘He guys, as you know all the growth team is planning on shipping a permissions update on Android at the end of this month. They are going to include the ‘read call log’ permission, which will trigger the Android permissions dialog on update, requiring users to accept the update. They will then provide an in-app opt in NUX for a feature that lets you continuously upload your SMS and call log history to Facebook to be used for improving things like PYMK, coefficient calculation, feed ranking etc. This is a pretty high-risk thing to do from a PR perspective but it appears that the growth team will charge ahead and do it.’ Yul Kwon ‘The Growth team is now exploring a path where we only request Read Call Log permission, and hold off on requesting any other permissions for now. ‘Based on their initial testing, it seems this would allow us to upgrade users without subjecting them to an Android permissions dialog at all. ‘It would still be a breaking change, so users would have to click to upgrade, but no permissions dialog screen. [1] https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/culture-media-and-sport/Note-by-Chair-and-selected-documents-ordered-from-Six4Three.pdf https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/cultu...
- why_only_15 8y ago
  I was just watching Survivor: Cook Islands and seeing Yul Kwon come up in such a totally random way is bizarre. Guess he needs more than the million
ogcufugic 8y ago
This article is really funny. Reading things like employees comparing Zuck to Hitler was over the top but still funny. While the media circus in the US revolves around US elections, let us not forget about Facebook's role in the UN documented genocide in Myanmar or in the election of Rodrigo Duterte who ran death squads as Mayor and is killing people left and right. https://www.engadget.com/2018/08/27/facebook-bans-military-myanmar-un-report/ https://www.engadget.com/2018/08/27/facebook-bans-military-m... The comment on Sheryl Sandberg as an icon of the left is also funny because she's still a capitalist that leads an authoritarian organization. A real leftist would fight for democracy but that's the level of discourse we have in this country.
aplummer 8y ago
> “Again [it's] the female card that has caused so much damage in such a short time, not just at Facebook,” another poster wrote. I don’t think I’ve ever read such a deeply toxic comment in my life. On the surface polite, but underneath such a corrupt worldview. Good on Sheryl for just surviving in an environment with people like that.
- deleted 8y ago
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- seatdrummer 8y ago
  Really? Do you think that women simultaneously being the victim and being empowered, the company bending over backwards to increase female numbers and create special awards/events specifically for women won't create some frustration among the innocent male employees who have to pretend like they have to change the way they act around women to avoid talking over them, watching their time around women ( things like saying "Id love to go out but my ball and chain won't let me go"). The slightest criticism against women needs to be considered through a lens of misogyny and if it's plausible you keep quiet. It's just as simple as ignoring whatever the diversity efforts say about you and the situation at work. Don't divulge even a glimpse that you aren't along for the ride. Honestly sometimes silence or lack of enthusiasm makes you suspect. It's very obvious that gender equality being achieved in the workplace is not via reduced discrimination, but by hiring women at a very flexible bar. It's so painfully obvious in my organization and frankly im embarrassed for the qualified women who are getting tarnished by the changes.
  - orcdork 8y ago
    "Id love to go out but my ball and chain won't let me go" Or maybe you keep such shitty things to yourself and the painfully obvious is visible to anyone but you.
    - coryfklein 8y ago
      If a woman were to say "my ball and chain won't let me go," most sjws today would sympathize with her and help to "empower" her. When a man says it, it's a "shitty thing to say".
flexie 8y ago
A lot of criticism from anonymous sources. Even if they had names, would it even be worth mentioning what a bunch of hysterical 20-something year old developers are complaining about? Yes, it's inconvenient for them that they bet on the wrong horse. But if they don't like the direction their company is taking, they can quit and find another job.
- forapurpose 8y ago
  > A lot of criticism from anonymous sources. ... if they don't like the direction their company is taking, they can quit and find another job. I don't understand what you mean. The sources that agree with your position are also anonymous - the article depicted three sides to the debate, and all are represented by anonymous sources: Internally, the conflict seems to have divided Facebook into three camps: those loyal to Zuckerberg and chief operating officer Sheryl Sandberg; those who see the current scandals as proof of a larger corporate meltdown; and a group who see the entire narrative — including the portrayal of the company’s hiring of communications consulting firm Definers Public Affairs — as examples of biased media attacks.
deleted 8y ago
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danielor 8y ago
In the end, Facebook's success will be its biggest headwind. They had been on a tear for years since inception. That type of success makes it harder for people to switch gears when problems arise. It is fundamentally unclear how Facebook will navigate these turbid waters.
sjg007 8y ago
Facebook does need to police its platforms. Fake news and the mob mentality will destroy not only Facebook but also the world. And that is a very tall order. Oddly enough this may not actually be possible. I think they could put in some global filters to reduce virality/contagion as well as automated bot/troll detection.
- wu-ikkyu 8y ago
  They won't admit it but internet mobs, viral click bait, and bots are all good for FB's stock price. They all increase engagement and active user counts. Saying they should fix their "problems" by doing more policing is like saying a government which has robbed/oppressed it's people into poverty and desperation should solve their problems with more policing. It's an appeal to authority and ignores the root problem.
- makomk 8y ago
  I think that anyone who thinks that this is fixable doesn't understand how bad or difficult the misinformation problem is. For example, remember that time no less a person than the White House Press Secretary tweeted a video which had been doctored by selectively speeding parts up to make it look more violent? There was a really viral, popular video on Twitter which vividly demonstrated this by overlaying that version on the original and got 10.4 million views. The proof video was doctored, and not subtly either - the original video is 6 or 7 frames behind the overlaid video from the very start and remains that way the whole way through. When watching it at normal speed the faintness of the overlay made this almost invisible except during fast motion, giving the illusion that the overlaid video was sped up during those parts, but if you look at it in freeze-frame mode the very first frame gives the game away. No-one noticed. Every right-thinking, smart, social media savvy person now thinks that they caught an evil attempt to deceive the world with faked video, when in reality they'd been conned by some really simple video trickery - and nothing will ever change this. (This is also why the expert AP got to look at it frame by frame couldn't point to any part of the video that had been sped up. There wasn't any since he got the initial frame alignment right. I've compared the two for myself.) Oh, and even the White House Press Secretary seems to have now been convinced that the video was sped up despite the fact that it wasn't.
draw_down 8y ago
I just don't see Zuckerberg ousted from the CEO spot. I get the argument that it's the only way to right the ship, I just don't think it's very likely at all. I predict they'll issue a vaguely-worded statement or two about ethics and so forth, and then this will all more or less blow over. Some governments may drag Zuckerberg before some more panels, they may receive a fine or two, but I don't see much more than that happening. Some employees may get fed up and leave, but FB is still making way too much money for their compensation packages to stop attracting talent. Their bellyaching about "the media" could not be more predictable and eye-rolling. I'd really like to stop hearing about how all the big meanies have it out for Zuckerberg. I say- grow up.
ams6110 8y ago
“It’s otherwise rational, sane people who’re in Mark’s orbit spouting full-blown anti-media rhetoric, saying that the press is ganging up on Facebook,” Well, the press probably is ganging up on Facebook. That's what the press does. They are sharks. When they smell blood (a story), they move in. Breaking new stories and scooping the other guys is what they live for. Welcome to the world outside the bubble.
- jklinger410 8y ago
  You could flip this around and also say that otherwise rational, sane people are irrationally defending a corrupt, click-bait/profit driven media.
  - skybrian 8y ago
    Yes, that's an obvious move. Binary thinking usually does result in an increase in hyperbolic statements on both sides. There might be better moves to make, though.
- black6 8y ago
  It’s not just a story they smell, its $40B in advertising the traditional media is losing to Facebook in addition to people using FB as a news source — once the domain print, radio, and TV.
- WestCoastJustin 8y ago
  Also note, "Facebook hired PR firm that wrote negative articles about rivals: NYT" [1]. Really makes you wonder how much news is actually corporate propaganda. Reminds me of pg's article called, The Submarine [2]. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/14/facebook-hired-pr-firm-that-wrote-negative-articles-about-rivals-nyt.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/14/facebook-hired-pr-firm-that-... [2] http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html
  - cirgue 8y ago
    There’s no magical one-asshole-at-a-time rule.
duxup 8y ago
"Now, as its stock price declines " I guess that is when they start to object to the things they were doing, or is it just that it hasn't worked out for them... but they were ok with what the company did?
philwelch 8y ago
> a group who see the entire narrative — including the portrayal of the company’s hiring of communications consulting firm Definers Public Affairs — as examples of biased media attacks Of course they are biased media attacks. The tech industry in general, and Facebook in particular, is an existential threat to the legacy news media and will be viciously attacked for that reason alone. That's why Facebook, which made a little bit of money selling targeted ads to Russian trolls, is being blamed by the mainstream media for an election result that had more to do with those same media outlets doing 24/7 coverage of Donald Trump's antics for the entire 2016 election cycle. I don't work for Facebook and I don't even particularly like Facebook, but it's hard not to see a Two Minutes Hate for what it is.
- IfOnlyYouKnew 8y ago
  Just because you have no moral standards, does not preclude others from having them. Your particular conspiracy theory also fails to explain why Google and Twitter are not attacked in this way, why Facebook is attacked now, even though its growth (and therefore its impact on the media) peaked maybe two years ago, or why craigslist and monster.com, which hurt the media almost as much as facebook, were never targeted.
  - philwelch 8y ago
    > Just because you have no moral standards, does not preclude others from having them. That's a bit of a non-sequitur and a personal attack. Do you mind explaining where you're coming from with that comment? > Your particular conspiracy theory also fails to explain why Google and Twitter are not attacked in this way, The mainstream media are much more dependent on them for traffic, and sometimes content. > why Facebook is attacked now, even though its growth (and therefore its impact on the media) peaked maybe two years ago, or why craigslist and monster.com, which hurt the media almost as much as facebook, were never targeted. Legacy industries are legacy industries because they don't keep up with innovation and react in a delayed fashion.
jeffrallen 8y ago
The time is coming when Facebook will be a stain on a resume. If you work there now, you need to be working on your exit strategy.
tinyhouse 8y ago
The FB stock value today is roughly where it was almost two years ago. While the stock value of some other tech companies (Twitter, Netflix, Amazon) doubled in the same time period. The performance evaluation period in two months will be interesting this year I'm sure. I guess they will award lots of RSU refreshers to keep strong performers around.
docker_up 8y ago
The quotes from Blind are laughable and completely destroy any hints of journalistic integrity in this article. It reeks of desperation for any type of quote that supports their narrative. I'm a heavy user of Blind since its inception and it is nothing but a cesspool of anger and bitterness. It's fun if you want to blow off some steam and engage in mass trolling, almost like 4chan with its memes, but if you believe for one second that any sort of honest discussion can occur on that platform, you are delusional. It's literally the worst of the worst, and only people who enjoy trolling will engage on that platform.
- stevenwliao 8y ago
  Aside from the trolling, there's real conversation happening about culture and compensation that doesn't happen anywhere else online. Be the change that you want to see.
elgenie 8y ago
Ex-Facebooker perspective: the only news in this article is that the preferred replacement for the Secret app [0] at Facebook is the Blind app. A few of the 33,606 people [1] working at Facebook anonymously complaining about their employer and management in the midst of a bad press cycle is remarkably unsurprising. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_(app) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_(app) [1] https://newsroom.fb.com/company-info/ https://newsroom.fb.com/company-info/
roadkillon101 8y ago
It doesn't take much for a "darling" social media or dotcom company to become a thing of the past. If my memory serves me correctly, before Google, there was AltaVista https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AltaVista https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AltaVista . Before Facebook, there was MySpace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myspace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myspace . Yahoo is on it's way out especially after the data breach https://money.cnn.com/2017/10/03/technology/business/yahoo-breach-3-billion-accounts/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2017/10/03/technology/business/yahoo-b... Facebook is NOT the only social media company around and some other company WILL emerge and fill its place in the ecosystem if they don't recover from their mistakes.
- coryfklein 8y ago
  What is interesting to me is that previously each turn-over has been at a much smaller scale. The internet has grown so much and become so much more ubiquitous since AltaVista and MySpace, that seeing a social media giant begin to "turn over" today is rather spectacular and awe inspiring.
- blhack 8y ago
  The problem is that facebook has so much money, that they can just buy any startup that might threaten them.
- buboard 8y ago
  they were all replaced by better alternatives, not by bad press.
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malvosenior 8y ago
I still don't understand why the Soros thing is a news story. I've never seen so many major media outlets come to the defense of the "helpless" billionare. If someone that powerful was bad mouthing my company, I'd also want to know why they were doing that.
- drak0n1c 8y ago
  I'm Jewish myself and I don't understand how Soros being the subject of neo-nazi memes renders his political activity immune to criticism in general. The Koch brothers are frequently vilified by angry neo-marxists, but that doesn't seem to discourage journalists from writing about how projects and funds are tied to the Kochs.
  - malvosenior 8y ago
    I agree, no one should be the subject of discrimination like that but just because you are, it doesn't give you carte blanche to do whatever you want. It doesn't really matter if he's Jewish, Christian, Muslim or a practicing voodoo witch doctor. He's a billionaire, and as such should have the utmost scrutiny applied to all of his actions.
  - IfOnlyYouKnew 8y ago
    Quick: name one specific project by George Soros. Among the reasons why the criticism of him is generally seen as Anti-Semitic is that it rarely goes any further than "rich Jew". The Open Society Foundations supports hundreds of initiatives. They are all listed on their website. Go find something objectionable!
    - buboard 8y ago
      billionaires using their wealth to meddle in politics is generally viewed as suspicious, as it should. Can you name another rich political activist who is not being criticized but praised? The honest way for a rich person to make political change is by putting himself up for election.
snowwrestler 8y ago
> People are “hoping for a Sundar or Dara moment,” one former senior Facebook employee told BuzzFeed News, referring to past leadership changes at Google and Uber in which founding employees stepped aside from top jobs. A second senior employee echoed the view, suggesting that some inside the ranks are looking for a shakeup to come from the outside. Ballmer to Nadella would be another example. For me, this hints at an interesting shift in tech culture, away from the unquestioned mythography of the original founder. Typically the departure of the founder has been seen as the biggest challenge for evolving startups, and the return of the founder as a moment of salvation. Think of Apple, or Twitter. Now, there are examples of where the departure of the founder acted as a release valve for public pressure, and a chance for the company to reset and evolve. Or maybe it's more like an addition to the culture--a new set of stories that illustrate a different path for startups toward long-term success. This might also reflect a shift in how the public views tech companies. They're not just fun, harmless get-rich-quick stories anymore. The consequences of their success (intended or not) weigh more on people's minds.
- xiphias2 8y ago
  I don't view Sundar as somebody who has any power over Larry. When Eric Schmidt was the CEO, he had his own opinions, but whenever Sundar was asked any question on TGIF, he was just looking at Larry to see if what he's saying is what Larry wants to hear. Sergey doesn't really care about politics, he just wants to do cool stuff.
  - lawnchair_larry 8y ago
    Also the fact that Larry is the CEO of Alphabet. Sundar is the CEO of Google. Therefore, Larry is still the real CEO.
golemiprague 8y ago
The problem with Facebook and the rest of the big tech companies is that they appointed themselves to be those aunties who tells you what to do, what to read, what to believe in and how to behave correctly. If they just said that they follow the law and that's it, without agendas and politics there would be no problems because nobody would expect anything from them. But they have this hubris and arrogance and that will be their demise because they will never be able to satisfy everybody. We use our representative in the government to make moral decisions and laws and if we don't like it we can vote for a different candidate. Zuckerberg is not my representative and I got no control or power to take him out of his position. So just shut up and follow the law. Don't censor stuff if the law allow it and don't collect information if the law doesn't allow it.
zjdkxbz 8y ago
“Now, people now have burner phones to talk shit about the company — not even to reporters, just to other employees,” I find it unsettling that FB employees feel they need to use burner phones to criticize the company.
metabagel 8y ago
Lots of comments about burner phones here. I merely took it as a cheap throwaway phone which they purchased explicitly because it would not be trackable or monitorable, and the phone number would not be registered under their name.
deleted 8y ago
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dreamcompiler 8y ago
Mark Zuckerberg wanted a tool to help him get laid, and he built a tool that has the power to undermine democracy. He and everyone else in FB management seems to think their little toy is still just a chuckleworthy way to meet cute chicks and get rich. Serious adult scrutiny is exactly what FB needs right now, before they screw around and blow up the world.
- visarga 8y ago
  > Mark Zuckerberg wanted a tool to help him get laid, and he built a tool that has the power to undermine democracy. This reminds me of the paperclip maximiser AGI - an agent tasked with, say, maximising the production of paperclips would hypothetically destroy humanity just to reach its goal. Maybe Zuck is just like paperclip-AGI?
acjohnson55 8y ago
Anyone who buys into a company's stock when it's rigged to insulate the CEO from accountability either doesn't care about accountability or is a fool.
iamleppert 8y ago
If you're a talented engineer, there are a lot better places than Facebook in which to spend your time. Get the monkey off your back.
dschuetz 8y ago
I cannot really understand Facebook's concerns over the press ganging them up. Zuckerberg doesn't talk, or is lying through his teeth, or through Sandberg's, so people find other ways to get into Facebook's internal affairs (see the story about UK's MP disclosing memos). Now Zuck and Sheryl are loosing trust from their own employees. Though break.

439 points by laurex 8y ago

Non AMP link: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/charliewarzel/facebooks-tensions-zuckerberg-sandberg https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/charliewarzel/facebooks...

joshstrange 8y ago
@dang can we please change the URL to this? The current one has full width text which is hard to read.
- pferde 8y ago
  Full-width text is fine, I like not having miles of unused space on either side of an article. The problem is that an AMP page displays as empty if you refuse to let it execude arbitrary code within your browser.
- laurex 8y ago
  Sorry about that, I'm usually careful. If it can be changed, I'm in favour.
- sctb 8y ago
  Updated!
  - joshstrange 8y ago
    Thank you! Quick question, is there a good way to "summon" a mod? I've always used @dang to do it but they obviously aren't the only mod here, I just don't know the correct way to do it.
    - sctb 8y ago
      That doesn't do any summoning anyway, so please email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll be sure to see it.

lewisj489 8y ago

I find it quite (weird/funny/amusing) that BuzzFeed has been writing non-stop articles about Facebook. BuzzFeed was built on Facebook, and I'm not sure how far they would have got without them. But the year is nearly 2019 and Buzzfeed no longer relies on Facebook for users.

pulisse 8y ago
> BuzzFeed was built on Facebook [...] Buzzfeed no longer relies on Facebook for users. Both of these statements are false.
mkirklions 8y ago
I used to rely on reddit for traffic. Now I don't. Times change. Reddit quality has gone down too.
- ALittleLight 8y ago
  What has replaced reddit for traffic for you?
  - hannasanarion 8y ago
    RSS. Pick the news that you want to see, not what an exploitative algorithm thinks you will click on. Feedbin is nice. Follow your favorite youtube channels, twitter users, newspapers, blogs, and webcomics there, and never look at a news feed again.
- chapium 8y ago
  The biggest change i see in reddit is its not ron paul obsessed any more. In what ways has the quality decreased?
  - fooker 8y ago
    Mods on power trips ruining communities.
  - 8y ago

reaperducer 8y ago

This is my favorite part: Another former senior employee noted a growing sense of paranoia among current employees. “Now, people now have burner phones to talk shit about the company — not even to reporters, just to other employees,” they told BuzzFeed News. Facebook employees so afraid of Facebook spying on them, that they need burners. Presumably, not loaded with any Facebook apps.

compiler-guy 8y ago
More likely just phones without access to facebook's internal corporate network, which grants many more privileges to the app and the company than everyday facebook access gets. They likely also dodge accounts connected to the one their employer recognizes. Calling these "burner phones" is a little silly. They are just completely private, non-corporate phones. I've never trusted any company to either pay for my own phone or plan, if that requires allowing it special access.
- iamdave 8y ago
  Calling these "burner phones" is a little silly. They are just completely private, non-corporate phones. So a phone used to duck surveillance from a powerful entity to conduct discussions about things you don't want that entity knowing about, colloquially goes by what other name then? I get it if the implicit association between a "real" burner phone and these devices might not be a complete and perfect parallel but I think here the term is apt (unless we're legitimately just talking about someone's every day personal phone, but that wasn't the impression I got-the article doesn't really talk more about what these devices are)
  - SlowRobotAhead 8y ago
    Meh, typically burner would be disposable. He’s arguing you don’t need to ‘burn’ this device after using. It’s just a normal phone that you can keep using. Burner-like if it works better for you.
    - 8y ago

baby 8y ago

Do employees at facebook really feel the heat? I'm just picturing management trying to find solutions (or to wait it out) while most other employees must be mostly going on with their work. In the end, most of the critics seem to miss the point that Facebook grew really fast, and just wasn't ready to police the world. A lot of it focuses on the negative aspects of Facebook conquering the world, but what about the positive aspects? Is there another app that, indeed, connects the world? It might not be clear to people here, who are not heavy users of Facebook and reside mostly in the US. But for me, I have hundreds of friends scattered around the world and Facebook has been the only way to keep in touch with them.I've met so many people through Erasmus groups and Communities on Facebook as well. No, the alternatives are not everywhere in the world.

ori_b 8y ago
> Do employees at facebook really feel the heat? Two words: Stock price. A big part of compensation is in stock.
- ChuckMcM 8y ago
  This is the really bad part about equity compensation in a publicly traded company. When that stock starts devaluing rapidly it runs past even your "worst" jaded future predictions, and then it is depressing. Back in 1998 when a company I helped start was acquired by a publicly traded company, and by 1999 the stock price was over $100 and everyone was feeling "super good" about the future. The internal dialog goes something like this, "This may be an anomaly but damn! even if the stock drops to 50% of its value I'm still doing great!." In my case the stock dropped in value to below a dollar a a share, 99%+ drop. That feels really really horrible, especially if the future doesn't have anything in it that would rescue or recover the value. Even though there was nothing that I personally could have done (legally) to change the outcome, as an engineer and a person who solves hard problems, it made me feel like a total failure. Like I had let down my family, my friends at work, and people who I knew who had bought stock in the company as a sign of confidence in me. It is really hard to understand that kind of feeling until you've been through it I think.

crunchlibrarian 8y ago

With everything that has happened in the past few years, I'd be kind of scared of the people who choose to remain. They must either be true kool-aid drinking zealots or... something more sinister. The article presents it as a choice between leaving or fully buying in. What is the mindset of the person who is fully buying to Facebook, today, at the end of 2018?

madhadron 8y ago

The sources here appear to be leaks from a group that is the internal equivalent of 4chan and former employees who have an axe to grind. The portrait painted from them does not match the reality I experience day to day in any meaningful way.

deleted 8y ago
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dawhizkid 8y ago
Reality is most people work where they work because of the money...few are thinking philosophically about the moral/ethical implications of their work. The only reason stories like these might be interesting is because tech had up until now been perceived as this anti-Wall Street destination for smart people with a conscious. Now, it's clear people who choose to work at FB and other tech giants are not necessarily any nobler, and just as greedy, as those who choose to work at Goldman Sachs or Bridgewater.
marricks 8y ago
What is your experience of how employees are handling the barrage of major public scandals then? Big tech company surveillance culture is well documented[1] and the outside pressure against FB seems INTENSE. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/mar/16/silicon-valley-internal-work-spying-surveillance-leakers https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/mar/16/silicon-v...
- madhadron 8y ago
  > What is your experience of how employees are handling the barrage of major public scandals then? For real problems, like Cambridge Analytica or the recent API token breach, by trying to fix whatever is broken. A lot of the other scandals honestly don't seem to have any basis in reality that we can discern, so we spend a fair amount of time looking puzzled, then shrugging and getting back to work.
pavlov 8y ago
The media portrayal of Facebook feels roughly equivalent of how Microsoft was seen ten years ago. The tech industry seems to live on these ten-year rollercoaster cycles in perception. (Zuckerberg isn't Ballmer though – I don't think he's going anywhere. Besides, although the tech press likes to credit Nadella for everything because it makes for a convenient rags-to-riches, Ballmer laid the foundation for Microsoft's present success.)

Olsi 8y ago

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GauntletWizard 8y ago

I will not name him, but I had a friend who worked at Facebook. At one point, he talked shit about the company to another employee in a facebook chat. His HR representative quoted said chat at him in a meeting. Facebook will claim that this is ethical because your Facebook account is linked to the work systems and therefore your chats are company property. I will pass judgement - even if it had been talking shit on a purely internal chat application, such as a corporate slack, it would not be okay for HR to bring up talking shit - They would need to have had a dang good reason (A complaint from the other party of the chat that you had made threats, reason to believe you were discussing illegal activity or actively causing the company harm). What Facebook did was absolutely immoral, and it is clear that it is standard company policy.

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babygoat 8y ago
I don't condone what Facebook did, but I can't believe anyone would trust them not to.
- draw_down 8y ago
  Trust is one thing, but if there is any truth to that story it is downright pathetic on their part.
CGamesPlay 8y ago
When I worked there 4+ years ago, all employee:employee facebook messenger conversations (on production www.facebook.com) came with a little red circle, with alt text saying "employee to employee conversations are recorded". So I wouldn't have been surprised by this in the least.
- lawnchair_larry 8y ago
  But isn't it creepy that they were proactively monitoring them and reading for negative comments? Then reprimanding the participants for feelings they expressed privately to another individual? That's behavior one might expect from North Korea.

deleted 8y ago

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malandrew 8y ago

> full-blown anti-media rhetoric, saying that the press is ganging up on Facebook I don't like facebook, but they are not wrong to feel this way because that is exactly what the media is doing because it is profitable. If it bleeds it leads. The media, like facebook's newsfeed, has the greatest engagement and ad revenue when they are actively selling controversy. Manufacturing or even just exaggerating controversy is at fault here. There really is no difference between everything shitty about Facebook and the news media these days. They are both afflicted with the same disease.

IfOnlyYouKnew 8y ago
Yeah. Except "the media" is reporting actual facts, that not even Facebook is disputing. And you're making some case that would be true no matter what the media focusses on. So: why Facebook, and not Apple? Why Volkswagen, and not Toyota? Why Michael Cohen, and not some other lawyer nobody had ever heard of?
ngcazz 8y ago
Sorry, but this is BS. The media have a social duty to report on these goings-on. FB fucked up big time and this should be scrutinized fully. Sure, players might act out of self-interest, but you're just buying into that gross and loutish anti-journalist rhetoric the far-right is pushing.

jhcl 8y ago

I thought that that kind of toxic culture just surrounded the political parties but by the looks of it is a basic part of the American (business) culture. If a big company like that has employees like that (i.e. without conscience) we're in for a ride.

kazen44 8y ago
from a non US perspective, lets say "cruel bussiness culture" is usually associated with american companies. The main thing that seems to foster suchs an enviroment is the lack of worker represenation in US companies. concepts like works councils[1] seem totally foreign to many US companies. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council

kraig 8y ago

good

gnicholas 8y ago

> People at Facebook are focused on building products that help people connect and have a positive impact in the world. I don't remember seeing that last part before! Does this mean that they don't want to connect people who (they believe) will have a negative impact on the world?

smt88 8y ago
I think "have a positive impact' is referring to the products, not the people. Facebook has/had a near-religious devotion to the idea that connecting a globe of strangers is inherently good. I strongly disagree.
- erobbins 8y ago
  Boz's 'the ugly' that got leaked is probably the best well known documentation of this cult. My whole time there it creeped me out.
FeteCommuniste 8y ago
It's kind of ambiguous. Could be "products that (help people connect) and [that] (have a positive impact in the world)" or "products that help people (connect and have a positive impact in the world)."
- gnicholas 8y ago
  I also noticed that it has only one meaning as written, but two meanings if another "that" were added. If it weren't a company spokesperson providing a response "on the record", I'd say it goes either way. But someone who is paid to be careful with his/her words may be doing just that. I'll be curious to see if this pops up again in the future.

Mc_Big_G 8y ago

"...the only survival strategy is to quit or fully buy in." I hope anyone worth their salt quits. As a hiring manager, it would be hard to overlook "fully buy[ing] in" to FB after how apparent it's become that they're fundamentally evil.

diogenescynic 8y ago
I think it's already happening. I've received a few emails from recruiters about jobs at Facebook in the past few weeks and before this hadn't received any. Same with my wife. It's obviously anecdotal, but we were both surprised to get emails from recruiters for the same company a few weeks apart. My first thought was that they must be having more trouble hiring people.

Animats 8y ago

The actual documents the UK Parliament pried out of Facebook are here.[1] Excerpts: Exhibit 172 – Discussion of changing ‘read call log’ permissions on Android From email dated 4 February 2015 Michael LeBeau – ‘He guys, as you know all the growth team is planning on shipping a permissions update on Android at the end of this month. They are going to include the ‘read call log’ permission, which will trigger the Android permissions dialog on update, requiring users to accept the update. They will then provide an in-app opt in NUX for a feature that lets you continuously upload your SMS and call log history to Facebook to be used for improving things like PYMK, coefficient calculation, feed ranking etc. This is a pretty high-risk thing to do from a PR perspective but it appears that the growth team will charge ahead and do it.’ Yul Kwon ‘The Growth team is now exploring a path where we only request Read Call Log permission, and hold off on requesting any other permissions for now. ‘Based on their initial testing, it seems this would allow us to upgrade users without subjecting them to an Android permissions dialog at all. ‘It would still be a breaking change, so users would have to click to upgrade, but no permissions dialog screen. [1] https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/culture-media-and-sport/Note-by-Chair-and-selected-documents-ordered-from-Six4Three.pdf https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/cultu...

why_only_15 8y ago
I was just watching Survivor: Cook Islands and seeing Yul Kwon come up in such a totally random way is bizarre. Guess he needs more than the million

ogcufugic 8y ago

This article is really funny. Reading things like employees comparing Zuck to Hitler was over the top but still funny. While the media circus in the US revolves around US elections, let us not forget about Facebook's role in the UN documented genocide in Myanmar or in the election of Rodrigo Duterte who ran death squads as Mayor and is killing people left and right. https://www.engadget.com/2018/08/27/facebook-bans-military-myanmar-un-report/ https://www.engadget.com/2018/08/27/facebook-bans-military-m... The comment on Sheryl Sandberg as an icon of the left is also funny because she's still a capitalist that leads an authoritarian organization. A real leftist would fight for democracy but that's the level of discourse we have in this country.

aplummer 8y ago

> “Again [it's] the female card that has caused so much damage in such a short time, not just at Facebook,” another poster wrote. I don’t think I’ve ever read such a deeply toxic comment in my life. On the surface polite, but underneath such a corrupt worldview. Good on Sheryl for just surviving in an environment with people like that.

deleted 8y ago
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seatdrummer 8y ago
Really? Do you think that women simultaneously being the victim and being empowered, the company bending over backwards to increase female numbers and create special awards/events specifically for women won't create some frustration among the innocent male employees who have to pretend like they have to change the way they act around women to avoid talking over them, watching their time around women ( things like saying "Id love to go out but my ball and chain won't let me go"). The slightest criticism against women needs to be considered through a lens of misogyny and if it's plausible you keep quiet. It's just as simple as ignoring whatever the diversity efforts say about you and the situation at work. Don't divulge even a glimpse that you aren't along for the ride. Honestly sometimes silence or lack of enthusiasm makes you suspect. It's very obvious that gender equality being achieved in the workplace is not via reduced discrimination, but by hiring women at a very flexible bar. It's so painfully obvious in my organization and frankly im embarrassed for the qualified women who are getting tarnished by the changes.
- orcdork 8y ago
  "Id love to go out but my ball and chain won't let me go" Or maybe you keep such shitty things to yourself and the painfully obvious is visible to anyone but you.
  - coryfklein 8y ago
    If a woman were to say "my ball and chain won't let me go," most sjws today would sympathize with her and help to "empower" her. When a man says it, it's a "shitty thing to say".

flexie 8y ago

A lot of criticism from anonymous sources. Even if they had names, would it even be worth mentioning what a bunch of hysterical 20-something year old developers are complaining about? Yes, it's inconvenient for them that they bet on the wrong horse. But if they don't like the direction their company is taking, they can quit and find another job.

forapurpose 8y ago
> A lot of criticism from anonymous sources. ... if they don't like the direction their company is taking, they can quit and find another job. I don't understand what you mean. The sources that agree with your position are also anonymous - the article depicted three sides to the debate, and all are represented by anonymous sources: Internally, the conflict seems to have divided Facebook into three camps: those loyal to Zuckerberg and chief operating officer Sheryl Sandberg; those who see the current scandals as proof of a larger corporate meltdown; and a group who see the entire narrative — including the portrayal of the company’s hiring of communications consulting firm Definers Public Affairs — as examples of biased media attacks.

deleted 8y ago

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danielor 8y ago

In the end, Facebook's success will be its biggest headwind. They had been on a tear for years since inception. That type of success makes it harder for people to switch gears when problems arise. It is fundamentally unclear how Facebook will navigate these turbid waters.

sjg007 8y ago

Facebook does need to police its platforms. Fake news and the mob mentality will destroy not only Facebook but also the world. And that is a very tall order. Oddly enough this may not actually be possible. I think they could put in some global filters to reduce virality/contagion as well as automated bot/troll detection.

wu-ikkyu 8y ago
They won't admit it but internet mobs, viral click bait, and bots are all good for FB's stock price. They all increase engagement and active user counts. Saying they should fix their "problems" by doing more policing is like saying a government which has robbed/oppressed it's people into poverty and desperation should solve their problems with more policing. It's an appeal to authority and ignores the root problem.
makomk 8y ago
I think that anyone who thinks that this is fixable doesn't understand how bad or difficult the misinformation problem is. For example, remember that time no less a person than the White House Press Secretary tweeted a video which had been doctored by selectively speeding parts up to make it look more violent? There was a really viral, popular video on Twitter which vividly demonstrated this by overlaying that version on the original and got 10.4 million views. The proof video was doctored, and not subtly either - the original video is 6 or 7 frames behind the overlaid video from the very start and remains that way the whole way through. When watching it at normal speed the faintness of the overlay made this almost invisible except during fast motion, giving the illusion that the overlaid video was sped up during those parts, but if you look at it in freeze-frame mode the very first frame gives the game away. No-one noticed. Every right-thinking, smart, social media savvy person now thinks that they caught an evil attempt to deceive the world with faked video, when in reality they'd been conned by some really simple video trickery - and nothing will ever change this. (This is also why the expert AP got to look at it frame by frame couldn't point to any part of the video that had been sped up. There wasn't any since he got the initial frame alignment right. I've compared the two for myself.) Oh, and even the White House Press Secretary seems to have now been convinced that the video was sped up despite the fact that it wasn't.

draw_down 8y ago

I just don't see Zuckerberg ousted from the CEO spot. I get the argument that it's the only way to right the ship, I just don't think it's very likely at all. I predict they'll issue a vaguely-worded statement or two about ethics and so forth, and then this will all more or less blow over. Some governments may drag Zuckerberg before some more panels, they may receive a fine or two, but I don't see much more than that happening. Some employees may get fed up and leave, but FB is still making way too much money for their compensation packages to stop attracting talent. Their bellyaching about "the media" could not be more predictable and eye-rolling. I'd really like to stop hearing about how all the big meanies have it out for Zuckerberg. I say- grow up.

ams6110 8y ago

“It’s otherwise rational, sane people who’re in Mark’s orbit spouting full-blown anti-media rhetoric, saying that the press is ganging up on Facebook,” Well, the press probably is ganging up on Facebook. That's what the press does. They are sharks. When they smell blood (a story), they move in. Breaking new stories and scooping the other guys is what they live for. Welcome to the world outside the bubble.

jklinger410 8y ago
You could flip this around and also say that otherwise rational, sane people are irrationally defending a corrupt, click-bait/profit driven media.
- skybrian 8y ago
  Yes, that's an obvious move. Binary thinking usually does result in an increase in hyperbolic statements on both sides. There might be better moves to make, though.
black6 8y ago
It’s not just a story they smell, its $40B in advertising the traditional media is losing to Facebook in addition to people using FB as a news source — once the domain print, radio, and TV.
WestCoastJustin 8y ago
Also note, "Facebook hired PR firm that wrote negative articles about rivals: NYT" [1]. Really makes you wonder how much news is actually corporate propaganda. Reminds me of pg's article called, The Submarine [2]. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/14/facebook-hired-pr-firm-that-wrote-negative-articles-about-rivals-nyt.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/14/facebook-hired-pr-firm-that-... [2] http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html
- cirgue 8y ago
  There’s no magical one-asshole-at-a-time rule.

duxup 8y ago

"Now, as its stock price declines " I guess that is when they start to object to the things they were doing, or is it just that it hasn't worked out for them... but they were ok with what the company did?

philwelch 8y ago

> a group who see the entire narrative — including the portrayal of the company’s hiring of communications consulting firm Definers Public Affairs — as examples of biased media attacks Of course they are biased media attacks. The tech industry in general, and Facebook in particular, is an existential threat to the legacy news media and will be viciously attacked for that reason alone. That's why Facebook, which made a little bit of money selling targeted ads to Russian trolls, is being blamed by the mainstream media for an election result that had more to do with those same media outlets doing 24/7 coverage of Donald Trump's antics for the entire 2016 election cycle. I don't work for Facebook and I don't even particularly like Facebook, but it's hard not to see a Two Minutes Hate for what it is.

IfOnlyYouKnew 8y ago
Just because you have no moral standards, does not preclude others from having them. Your particular conspiracy theory also fails to explain why Google and Twitter are not attacked in this way, why Facebook is attacked now, even though its growth (and therefore its impact on the media) peaked maybe two years ago, or why craigslist and monster.com, which hurt the media almost as much as facebook, were never targeted.
- philwelch 8y ago
  > Just because you have no moral standards, does not preclude others from having them. That's a bit of a non-sequitur and a personal attack. Do you mind explaining where you're coming from with that comment? > Your particular conspiracy theory also fails to explain why Google and Twitter are not attacked in this way, The mainstream media are much more dependent on them for traffic, and sometimes content. > why Facebook is attacked now, even though its growth (and therefore its impact on the media) peaked maybe two years ago, or why craigslist and monster.com, which hurt the media almost as much as facebook, were never targeted. Legacy industries are legacy industries because they don't keep up with innovation and react in a delayed fashion.

jeffrallen 8y ago

The time is coming when Facebook will be a stain on a resume. If you work there now, you need to be working on your exit strategy.

tinyhouse 8y ago

The FB stock value today is roughly where it was almost two years ago. While the stock value of some other tech companies (Twitter, Netflix, Amazon) doubled in the same time period. The performance evaluation period in two months will be interesting this year I'm sure. I guess they will award lots of RSU refreshers to keep strong performers around.

docker_up 8y ago

The quotes from Blind are laughable and completely destroy any hints of journalistic integrity in this article. It reeks of desperation for any type of quote that supports their narrative. I'm a heavy user of Blind since its inception and it is nothing but a cesspool of anger and bitterness. It's fun if you want to blow off some steam and engage in mass trolling, almost like 4chan with its memes, but if you believe for one second that any sort of honest discussion can occur on that platform, you are delusional. It's literally the worst of the worst, and only people who enjoy trolling will engage on that platform.

stevenwliao 8y ago
Aside from the trolling, there's real conversation happening about culture and compensation that doesn't happen anywhere else online. Be the change that you want to see.

elgenie 8y ago

Ex-Facebooker perspective: the only news in this article is that the preferred replacement for the Secret app [0] at Facebook is the Blind app. A few of the 33,606 people [1] working at Facebook anonymously complaining about their employer and management in the midst of a bad press cycle is remarkably unsurprising. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_(app) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_(app) [1] https://newsroom.fb.com/company-info/ https://newsroom.fb.com/company-info/

roadkillon101 8y ago

It doesn't take much for a "darling" social media or dotcom company to become a thing of the past. If my memory serves me correctly, before Google, there was AltaVista https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AltaVista https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AltaVista . Before Facebook, there was MySpace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myspace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myspace . Yahoo is on it's way out especially after the data breach https://money.cnn.com/2017/10/03/technology/business/yahoo-breach-3-billion-accounts/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2017/10/03/technology/business/yahoo-b... Facebook is NOT the only social media company around and some other company WILL emerge and fill its place in the ecosystem if they don't recover from their mistakes.

coryfklein 8y ago
What is interesting to me is that previously each turn-over has been at a much smaller scale. The internet has grown so much and become so much more ubiquitous since AltaVista and MySpace, that seeing a social media giant begin to "turn over" today is rather spectacular and awe inspiring.
blhack 8y ago
The problem is that facebook has so much money, that they can just buy any startup that might threaten them.
buboard 8y ago
they were all replaced by better alternatives, not by bad press.

deleted 8y ago

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malvosenior 8y ago

I still don't understand why the Soros thing is a news story. I've never seen so many major media outlets come to the defense of the "helpless" billionare. If someone that powerful was bad mouthing my company, I'd also want to know why they were doing that.

drak0n1c 8y ago
I'm Jewish myself and I don't understand how Soros being the subject of neo-nazi memes renders his political activity immune to criticism in general. The Koch brothers are frequently vilified by angry neo-marxists, but that doesn't seem to discourage journalists from writing about how projects and funds are tied to the Kochs.
- malvosenior 8y ago
  I agree, no one should be the subject of discrimination like that but just because you are, it doesn't give you carte blanche to do whatever you want. It doesn't really matter if he's Jewish, Christian, Muslim or a practicing voodoo witch doctor. He's a billionaire, and as such should have the utmost scrutiny applied to all of his actions.
- IfOnlyYouKnew 8y ago
  Quick: name one specific project by George Soros. Among the reasons why the criticism of him is generally seen as Anti-Semitic is that it rarely goes any further than "rich Jew". The Open Society Foundations supports hundreds of initiatives. They are all listed on their website. Go find something objectionable!
  - buboard 8y ago
    billionaires using their wealth to meddle in politics is generally viewed as suspicious, as it should. Can you name another rich political activist who is not being criticized but praised? The honest way for a rich person to make political change is by putting himself up for election.

snowwrestler 8y ago

> People are “hoping for a Sundar or Dara moment,” one former senior Facebook employee told BuzzFeed News, referring to past leadership changes at Google and Uber in which founding employees stepped aside from top jobs. A second senior employee echoed the view, suggesting that some inside the ranks are looking for a shakeup to come from the outside. Ballmer to Nadella would be another example. For me, this hints at an interesting shift in tech culture, away from the unquestioned mythography of the original founder. Typically the departure of the founder has been seen as the biggest challenge for evolving startups, and the return of the founder as a moment of salvation. Think of Apple, or Twitter. Now, there are examples of where the departure of the founder acted as a release valve for public pressure, and a chance for the company to reset and evolve. Or maybe it's more like an addition to the culture--a new set of stories that illustrate a different path for startups toward long-term success. This might also reflect a shift in how the public views tech companies. They're not just fun, harmless get-rich-quick stories anymore. The consequences of their success (intended or not) weigh more on people's minds.

xiphias2 8y ago
I don't view Sundar as somebody who has any power over Larry. When Eric Schmidt was the CEO, he had his own opinions, but whenever Sundar was asked any question on TGIF, he was just looking at Larry to see if what he's saying is what Larry wants to hear. Sergey doesn't really care about politics, he just wants to do cool stuff.
- lawnchair_larry 8y ago
  Also the fact that Larry is the CEO of Alphabet. Sundar is the CEO of Google. Therefore, Larry is still the real CEO.

golemiprague 8y ago

The problem with Facebook and the rest of the big tech companies is that they appointed themselves to be those aunties who tells you what to do, what to read, what to believe in and how to behave correctly. If they just said that they follow the law and that's it, without agendas and politics there would be no problems because nobody would expect anything from them. But they have this hubris and arrogance and that will be their demise because they will never be able to satisfy everybody. We use our representative in the government to make moral decisions and laws and if we don't like it we can vote for a different candidate. Zuckerberg is not my representative and I got no control or power to take him out of his position. So just shut up and follow the law. Don't censor stuff if the law allow it and don't collect information if the law doesn't allow it.

zjdkxbz 8y ago

“Now, people now have burner phones to talk shit about the company — not even to reporters, just to other employees,” I find it unsettling that FB employees feel they need to use burner phones to criticize the company.

metabagel 8y ago

Lots of comments about burner phones here. I merely took it as a cheap throwaway phone which they purchased explicitly because it would not be trackable or monitorable, and the phone number would not be registered under their name.

deleted 8y ago

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dreamcompiler 8y ago

Mark Zuckerberg wanted a tool to help him get laid, and he built a tool that has the power to undermine democracy. He and everyone else in FB management seems to think their little toy is still just a chuckleworthy way to meet cute chicks and get rich. Serious adult scrutiny is exactly what FB needs right now, before they screw around and blow up the world.

visarga 8y ago
> Mark Zuckerberg wanted a tool to help him get laid, and he built a tool that has the power to undermine democracy. This reminds me of the paperclip maximiser AGI - an agent tasked with, say, maximising the production of paperclips would hypothetically destroy humanity just to reach its goal. Maybe Zuck is just like paperclip-AGI?

acjohnson55 8y ago

Anyone who buys into a company's stock when it's rigged to insulate the CEO from accountability either doesn't care about accountability or is a fool.

iamleppert 8y ago

If you're a talented engineer, there are a lot better places than Facebook in which to spend your time. Get the monkey off your back.

dschuetz 8y ago

I cannot really understand Facebook's concerns over the press ganging them up. Zuckerberg doesn't talk, or is lying through his teeth, or through Sandberg's, so people find other ways to get into Facebook's internal affairs (see the story about UK's MP disclosing memos). Now Zuck and Sheryl are loosing trust from their own employees. Though break.