8 ms·

So as a father of two daughters in their 20's, this makes me sad. Instead of attempting to see women as equals and moving to bridge the gap -- the best solutio

• jenkstom 8y ago
  From the article: “Some men have voiced concerns to me that a false accusation is what they fear,” said Zweig, the lawyer. “These men fear what they cannot control.”
  • deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
• tomp 8y ago
  It's just common sense for people to protect their future/careers. And it's not just men that think that way - from the article: > A late-40-something in private equity said he has a new rule, established on the advice of his wife, an attorney: no business dinner with a woman 35 or younger.
  • danesparza 8y ago
    Yeah. That's good advice ... because (#metoo movement aside) WHO HAS "BUSINESS" DINNERS ALONE WITH MARRIED PEOPLE? This is something completely different than having dinner with a group of people.
    • netcan 8y ago
      I do.
    • deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    • dsfyu404ed 8y ago
      I would wager that if you send N (where N>=2) employees to go do something, like drive somewhere and go meet with a client, go remove hardware from a datacenter rack, man a booth at some trade show, volunteer at some university event, etc, etc. and the logistics are such that it will be convenient for each of them to eat a meal or meals, possibly at a restaurant, there is a very good chance that if they go out to dinner they will do so together. Ideally gender and marital status would have no effect on whether or not that is acceptable.
    • wl 8y ago
      > WHO HAS "BUSINESS" DINNERS ALONE WITH MARRIED PEOPLE? Would you give it a second thought if it were two men or two women?
      • FilterSweep 8y ago
        Yes. The optics look bad with N=2; namely, you wouldn’t have any controls over bribery or other coercion
• bussierem 8y ago
  When there have already been numerous well-documented instances of people making false accusations that absolutely RUIN THE LIVES of the defendants, it can hardly be a surprise that people with a lot to lose would take drastic, if ill-though-out, measures to protect themselves from that possibility. As another comment said, even when the false accusations are found to be false, it's usually too late for the defendant, and their life has already been ruined. The only way this gets fixes is if we stop implicitly believing people who accuse someone of a crime, just because of the nature of that crime. Innocent until proven guilty applies globally, not based on context or scandals.
  • danesparza 8y ago
    Numerous? Well-documented? I don't mean to be inflammatory -- but I must reading different news that you are. Can you please cite your sources? To be clear: Numerous (to me) means approaching 20% of all accusations. That's only 1 in every 5 accusations. Does numerous mean something else to you?
    • deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    • wrs 8y ago
      I’m wondering if this is something like the numerous and well-documented instances of child kidnapping that have kept a generation of kids from being allowed outside by themselves.
    • YorkshireSeason 8y ago
      Can you please cite your sources? There is no serious, solid research on this question. "News" is certainly not where you can get serious figures on this matter. Even the very definitions of what counts as sexual harassment / assault / rape / hate speech etc are deeply controversial. A most prominent example are radical feminists like Dworkin who essentially say that all heterosexual intercourse is rape.
      • 8y ago
• vorpalhex 8y ago
  The rolling stone article is a great example of how an entirely false claim can still end someone's career and life, even when it's debunked beyond doubt. Companies are risk adverse - they would never hire someone with a public claim against them even if the claim was shown to be false. Why run the risk that you get a sociopath who will make a false claim for their own gain?
• ams6110 8y ago
  Men treating women like humans do (i.e. being attracted to the opposite sex, etc.) is what is now a problem.
  • bradleyankrom 8y ago
    attraction is not the problem
  • songshu 8y ago
    The problem is people treating women worse than they treat men. There's sexism at play when people consider which approaches are appropriate when they are attracted to someone.
• api 8y ago
  Maybe treating people like humans means being paranoid about them, especially in a pit of snakes like Wall St.?
• YorkshireSeason 8y ago
  Why can't these men just learn Look what you have not said: "Why can't these women just learn ..." Somewhow you only seem to require men to do things? Are you arguing that it's acceptable for women falsely to accuse men? Ask yourself: what have you done to ensure that women not falsely accuse men? Have you had "the talk" with your daughters about false accusations?
  • danesparza 8y ago
    The men are in a position of power. Side note: How many women have been accused of sexual harassment?
    • deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    • YorkshireSeason 8y ago
      So you have not asked your daughter to avoid falsely accusing others. Why? Does the law say, "false accusations are acceptable if the false accuser is in not in a position of power"? In my experience, the "position of power" reply is a canned response that is being used to deflect a question. It is in my experience never accompanied by a substantial understanding of what power actually means, and of an awareness of the long tradition of difficulties of defining the concept of power. In order to help you get away from this naive position, let me invite you to consider reflecting on the fact that the ability falsely to accuse others of heinous crimes and get away with it might be a power in itself. (Cf how the Khashoggi murderes are likely to get away with it -- would you or I get away with murder?)
    • gnicholas 8y ago
      Not sure about the total number (surely fewer than men), but a legislator at the forefront of the #MeToo movement in CA has been accused of sexual harassment: https://www.latimes.com/politics/essential/la-pol-ca-essential-politics-updates-female-lawmaker-who-has-been-outspoken-1518133766-htmlstory.html https://www.latimes.com/politics/essential/la-pol-ca-essenti...
    • deleted 8y ago
• netcan 8y ago
  ..because there isn't a "these men." There are individuals mostly concerned with themselves and their friends (also daughters etc.) and there are institutions.. The institutions just want to avoid trouble, and "changing the human X" is not a viable tactic.
• throwaway5250 8y ago
  > Why can't these men just learn to treat women like the humans they are? This sort of willful misunderstanding of concerns feels like a subtle gaslighting campaign. The vast majority of men being discussed here have zero problems in their treatment of women. They quite rationally have calculated that being around women at work is now a significant risk to them, with little or no upside in return, so they're bowing out. You can preach all you like, but in my experience it's almost impossible to get people to act against their own self-interest, especially when the welfare of their loved ones is on the line. Welcome to the new normal.
• briandear 8y ago
  As we saw with the Kavanaugh hearings, a mere accusation is enough to unleash hell-fires. There is a large part of society that follows the “believe” culture which is what I suspect causes the fear. Nobody should be “belived” — evidence, corroboration and due process should be required. These days, a woman can literally accuse any man of anything and the man’s reputation can be destroyed. With Kavanaugh, some of the allegations brought by Avenatti were being treated as credible and having actually happened until they were proven to have been ridiculous. However, I think public figure/political circumstances are the outlier and don’t agree with the concept of avoiding women. That’s just dumb on a number of levels. But I can understand the risk-adverse thinking. Ironically, the crowd screaming to “believe her” despite a lack of evidence actually caused more harm to women in the long run since the implication is that a women accusing anyone of anything is going to be “believed” regardless of evidence and without a consideration of due process. That’s a scary place to be as a man, knowing that a mere accusation and public flogging awaits even if there is no evidence of any wrongdoing having occurred.
• forgottenpass 8y ago
  >Why can't these men just learn to treat women like the humans they are? They're not worried they don't know how to treat women with respect. They're worried that in 5, 10 or 15 years they they'll be put on the spot to defend their behavior in an interaction they don't even remember happening.
• interesthrow2 8y ago
  Well you can explain your daughters that men don't act the same with men and women, just like women don't act the same when with women or men. Men are now protecting themselves against possible accusations of wrong doing by women, in professional settings, conferences, school... because now anybody can accuse them of abuse on Twitter with a simple hashtag and the world will never believe they are innocent even they have been deemed innocent by a court of law. I personally refuse to be with alone with a female coworker in any situation, even elevators. And any private meeting is done with the door open.
• cuddlecake 8y ago
  As ridiculous as it may sound, most of (these) men treat women like the humans they are. Most of women also treat men like the humans they are. The problem lies in the fact that bad women treat all men badly and bad men treat all women badly.[citation needed] Hence, fear results in good men and women having to avoid eachother, for lack of a better response.
  • dsfyu404ed 8y ago
    A minority of people with an outsize impact ruin it for everyone else. Nothing new there.
• buboard 8y ago
  > Why can't these men just learn to But you just assumed yourself that these men are somehow flawed. Just because one is wearing a seatbelt doesn't mean she s a bad driver.
• mychael 8y ago
  This is textbook gaslighting.
• lucozade 8y ago
  As a senior executive at a financial institution, and a father of a daughter, you may not be surprised to hear that I don't agree with this characterisation. The article focuses on the self-preservation concerns and it would be a lie to suggest that there's no CYA involved. But it's not the only dynamic. As a senior exec I both legally represent my employer and am seen to represent it by many employees. If how I act or communicate is misconstrued this could have far reaching consequences. But more important to both of these (because the real risk of something going pear-shaped isn't that large), is the effect that, seemingly inconsequential, actions can have on the recipient. As an example, a mentee of mine received an email from a senior colleague asking her to go for drinks. She asked my advice as she felt obliged to go but didn't want to give the wrong impression. She was quite concerned. Turns out, he had invited a number of people who had performed well on a project but had omitted to be clear about why they were invited. Entirely innocent, easily misconstrued. In my view, if senior folk get more thoughtful about their actions, it's likely to be net positive. There may be some unintended consequences (there usually are) but I don't believe the real risk is especially high.
  • danesparza 8y ago
    I appreciate your thoughtful response. Thanks! I agree with your conclusion that "if senior folk get more thoughtful about their actions, it's likely to be net positive". You also mentioned that "If how I act or communicate is misconstrued this could have far reaching consequences". I agree -- and this also cuts both ways. The original point I was trying to (clumsily) make was: One could easily see the men in the original article as actively excluding women from positions of power. The 'far reaching consequences' in this case would be punishing women who have legitimate grievances for raising those grievances and emphasizing a power gap between genders.
• faissaloo 8y ago
  If we saw women as equals they would be offended or feel violated. It's best that we don't do that.
• magicalhippo 8y ago
  I've never been in a car accident, and hopefully that day will never come. Yet I wear a seat belt every time I'm in a car. Chance of getting falsely accused of anything sexual is on average probably very slim, but the fallout of such an accusation can be devastating.