12 ms·

A bit disappointing to see that the storage is not user-upgradable. I guess it matters less on a device like this where you could more easily use external stora

by OskarS 8y ago

A bit disappointing to see that the storage is not user-upgradable. I guess it matters less on a device like this where you could more easily use external storage, but still. I wish Apple stopped soldering in stuff and just made things a centimeter taller if that was the tradeoff.

iwasakabukiman 8y ago
My understanding is that Apple pairs the individual hard drive in any given unit with the "Secure Enclave" that they use for TouchID within the same unit. So they are paired and one cannot be replaced without also replacing the other. Not excusing it, just explaining.
- adgasf 8y ago
  Ideal solution would be small secure enclave storage for keys then user-upgradable main storage encrypted with those keys.
  - xienze 8y ago
    Of course, but then how could you charge 2-3x for storage upgrades that way? Edit: wow, really struck a nerve there. I take it back, Apple is in no way motivated to massively overcharge for storage upgrades.
    - TremendousJudge 8y ago
      Console manufacturers never seem to have any issue with it, and hard drives are user upgradable
      - mbel 8y ago
        Console manufacturers have a different revenue model. They get money from games sold for their platform, this allows them to sell hardware with low margin or even at loss.
        SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
        Is this not the idea behind the Mac App Store?
        mcphage 8y ago
        Not really, no. Most of Apple's money comes from hardware sales.
        giobox 8y ago
        “Services”, as apple like to call the heading they report App Store revenue under, is largely the fastest growing thing at Apple. While historically it’s true Apple has made its money on high margin hardware, the future growth seems much, much more reliant on services. I wouldn’t be so quick to discount the increasing importance of service revenue such as the app stores to Apple.
      - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
        Has that changed in the current generation? On the XBox 360, you could physically stick any standard IDE drive in the drive bay, but the console wouldn't mount it unless it had a hidden file verifying that it was purchased from Microsoft, which charged well over market value.
        cvwright 8y ago
        IIRC they were also using a clever (sneaky) application of copyright law to enforce this. They used a few special sectors on the disk to store an image to which they hold the copyright. The Xbox checks to make sure the image is there in the right spot before it will use the drive. So you can't pass off another drive as valid without violating their copyright.
        LgWoodenBadger 8y ago
        That was tried with early video game consoles, and did not succeed legally.
- tinus_hn 8y ago
  There is no Touch ID on the Mac Mini.
  - bengale 8y ago
    It still has a T2 chip.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- OskarS 8y ago
  That does make more sense than the size thing. Still wish Apple didn't do it, but that's a better excuse.
spacenick88 8y ago
Maybe Apple should build SSD storage thingies that are exactly the same size as the mini so they can be stacked. They're already stacking them for demos and it would definitely look cool. Especially if you get Thunderbolt cables that exactly match 1-4 mini heights (since it got 4 Thunderbolt ports) + daisy chaining.
- robin_reala 8y ago
  That’s been a thing from a lot of companies for past Minis (e.g. https://www.newertech.com/products/ministack_classic.php https://www.newertech.com/products/ministack_classic.php ); I see no reason why it won’t happen again.
- bnycum 8y ago
  Other World Computing (OWC) actually sells a device called a miniStack which is essentially that. An external enclosure the same form factor and design as the (last-generation) Mini. It's still uses an older USB 3 connection though, no daisy-chaining.
- lebrad 8y ago
  Contemporary SSD storage only takes up as much space as a pack of gum, just like sticks of RAM. Even SSDs with terabytes of capacity! Any desktop computer, even a small one, has all the physical space needed to have upgradeable storage.
  - derefr 8y ago
    Yes, you could fit one m.2 SSD slot into a Mac Mini. But anyone who has a serious professional need for large storage (e.g. video editors), probably doesn't just want 2x-4x the internal storage, with the same bus-factor-of-1 fault-tolerance. No, they probably need either a Thunderbolt RAID array (that they can put into RAID5/6/10), or a SAN. And neither of those fit in a Mac Mini. (Though, a Thunderbolt RAID array of m.2 SSDs might fit in a Mac Mini-sized enclosure. Does anyone sell that?)
- rswail 8y ago
  Something that allows maybe 4 or more M.2 SSDs and 2 x TB3 controllers...
masklinn 8y ago
> I guess it matters less on a device like this where you could more easily use external storage, but still. I wish Apple stopped soldering in stuff and just made things a centimeter taller if that was the tradeoff. Here it's a bit more than just that: T2 is the secure boot system, but also the SSD controller (and a few other I/O things). They could have put an m.2 slot though.
- protomyth 8y ago
  I do wish they had gone with m.2. It really feels like T2 is wasted in the Mac mini and just there to check a feature list. It doesn't even make much sense in a machine that is turned off instead of put to sleep.
  - fpoling 8y ago
    T2 is Apple’s SSD controller. I suppose Apple does not trust controllers from other manufacturers and has enough data to see that with T2 the storage is sufficiently realible not to warrant an option to replace it even at own service facilities.
    - protomyth 8y ago
      I assume they will have an expandable solution for the New Mac Pro which should of been put into the mini. This lack of repairablity is getting old.
sanketskasar 8y ago
I think it's more because of the PCIe interface, and access control and encryption through the T2 chip. The PCIe interfaces SSDs that Apple's been using allow really fast speeds of upto 3Gbps, which is almost double those offered by other interfaces like M2 or even more faster than SATA. What's disappointing is the base storage. 128GB in 2019 is so ridiculous. I would't otherwise mind a soldered SSD when I can just use the TB3 ports to connect external drive with virtually no performance loss. But 250GB internal storage is a necessity especially when the OS itself takes up almost 20GB out of the paltry 120GB.
- isolli 8y ago
  Is encryption optional? In general I'm more worried of forgetting my password (and thus losing all my data) than of unauthorized access to my home desktop.
  - sneak 8y ago
    It provides an option to either display a long recovery key at first encryption (which you can store somewhere) or to archive it online with Apple in iCloud so that you have a second key available in the event that you lose your password. But also: backups. make backups.
  - moftz 8y ago
    If you really don't care about unauthorized access, just write the password in sharpie on the box. I have a bunch of machines hooked up to test equipment that sit on their own network. I just write the username and password on the box and no one ever needs to worry about trying to find the sticky note or find me and ask or waste time guessing. The name of the computer, the username, and password are all the same and reflect what the box setup for.
    - Scoundreller 8y ago
      I do this with wifi passwords on routers. Though I use masking tape.
    - 8y ago
riobard 8y ago
Because of T2 being the SSD controller, chances are those soldered SSD chips are actually raw flash, in which case even if they use M.2 slot, you won’t find any 3rd party raw flash M.2 drive (without controller) anyway.
rayiner 8y ago
The trade-off isn't height--an M.2 slot takes up a relatively large amount of floor space on the motherboard. There's nowhere to put it: https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/ZLFbiRsOdiemeWLA.huge https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/ZLFbiRsOdiemeWLA.h....
- ac29 8y ago
  It doesn't take up that much space. Here's a Raspberry Pi sized board with an M.2 slot: https://www.cnx-software.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/RK3399-Raspberry-Pi-Board.jpg https://www.cnx-software.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/RK33... I think there'd easily be room, given that the soldered-on NAND chips could be removed from the board. edit: If you're wondering how that works, here's a hint: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/ThomasKaiser/Knowledge/master/media/RockPi_4B_with_M2_Extension.jpg https://raw.githubusercontent.com/ThomasKaiser/Knowledge/mas...
- emsy 8y ago
  My previous Mac Mini had 2 HDD slots and upgradable ram, so it IS possible, for Apple even. Apple has gotten from a 1 step backwards, 2 forwards to a 1 step forwards 2 backwards company. The devices where they removed optical drives were groundbreaking. Nowadays their devices are compromise ridden.
- cptskippy 8y ago
  There's plenty of room for an M.2 module, especially on the backside of the board which is how they're traditionally mounted on desktop ITX boards. https://i.imgur.com/dW0ynV7.png https://i.imgur.com/dW0ynV7.png They can also be mounted at an angle just like those SO-DIMM slots. The M.2 standard even supports 12mm, 16mm, and 30mm width modules in addition to the 22mm that seems to have become the norm. Apple could still be a dick by using a 12mm or 16mm card while still supporting the standard.
  - blattimwind 8y ago
    > They can also be mounted at an angle just like those SO-DIMM slots. Stand-off M.2 sockets are a standard part, because a number of mainboards put components under the M.2 slot.
stefan_ 8y ago
They also of course charge $1400 on top for a 2TB SSD, a user accessible storage medium would simply eat into the margins real quick. That was the tradeoff, and it's why the base models have so little storage.
MrTonyD 8y ago
Not justifying anything...but back when Steve was alive I had a conversation with him on this topic. I was at NeXT writing drivers (NeXTStep) and I had tested a few disk drives on my cube. When I suggested that we might certify them, Steve said that he wanted simplicity, and only wanted to provide a few well-tested and working choices - so he didn't want more than a few basic choices. He also said (disparagingly) that more sophisticated users would figure out how to change things. From his tone I got the impression that it was ok if they did that, but we weren't going to support them at all. Such users weren't our target market, since all my interactions with Steve were focused on beauty and simplicity (Steve wasn't technical at all, as has been well documented - and I can certainly confirm.)
C1sc0cat 8y ago
I have always though a Mac Midi slightly wider by an inch and 3x-$x the Hight and able to take a short graphics card update with more options would have been a good basic mac for a lot of apple shops. Or even a mac using the Shuttle SFF size
bluegreyred 8y ago
Would it be feasible to order the model with the smallest buil tin storage and put the home (/User/*) directories on a fast external TB3 SSD?
mbell 8y ago
It has 4 Thunderbolt 3 ports, you don't really need to upgrade the internal storage when you plug in as much storage as you want and not pay much if any performance penalty.
stcredzero 8y ago
Someone should sell a kit that replaces the bottom panel of the new Mac Mini with a slightly thicker one containing an "external" NVMe drive enclosure. It could be coupled with a piece which replaces the Mac Mini power plug assembly, which could then tap mains power, allowing the "external" enclosure to be a Thunderbolt 3 NVMe enclosure. (Could have thicker ones for thin profile and regular 2.5" SATA drives.)
kllrnohj 8y ago
The bigger problem isn't that it's not user-upgradable, it's that you can't access your data in the event of a failure of any other component. Cap blew on the motherboard? Data gone. CPU kicked the bucket? Data gone. Spilled water on it? Data gone. Not literally gone, of course, just practically. No chance of popping the drive out and trying it elsewhere to recover data. Nope. And since Apple never repairs only replaces, you're not going to have any hope of saving your data with official repair support. That's absolutely insane for consumer tech where backups are rare.
- PhantomGremlin 8y ago
  That's absolutely insane for consumer tech where backups are rare. Are backups really rare? Apple couldn't have made it easier to plug in a backup disk. Plug one in and you immediately get asked if you want to use it with Time Machine. I can't imagine an easier backup solution. I agree with the rest of your comment. Any component failure means losing all your data.

by OskarS 8y ago

iwasakabukiman 8y ago

My understanding is that Apple pairs the individual hard drive in any given unit with the "Secure Enclave" that they use for TouchID within the same unit. So they are paired and one cannot be replaced without also replacing the other. Not excusing it, just explaining.

adgasf 8y ago
Ideal solution would be small secure enclave storage for keys then user-upgradable main storage encrypted with those keys.
- xienze 8y ago
  Of course, but then how could you charge 2-3x for storage upgrades that way? Edit: wow, really struck a nerve there. I take it back, Apple is in no way motivated to massively overcharge for storage upgrades.
  - TremendousJudge 8y ago
    Console manufacturers never seem to have any issue with it, and hard drives are user upgradable
    - mbel 8y ago
      Console manufacturers have a different revenue model. They get money from games sold for their platform, this allows them to sell hardware with low margin or even at loss.
      - SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
        Is this not the idea behind the Mac App Store?
        mcphage 8y ago
        Not really, no. Most of Apple's money comes from hardware sales.
        giobox 8y ago
        “Services”, as apple like to call the heading they report App Store revenue under, is largely the fastest growing thing at Apple. While historically it’s true Apple has made its money on high margin hardware, the future growth seems much, much more reliant on services. I wouldn’t be so quick to discount the increasing importance of service revenue such as the app stores to Apple.
    - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
      Has that changed in the current generation? On the XBox 360, you could physically stick any standard IDE drive in the drive bay, but the console wouldn't mount it unless it had a hidden file verifying that it was purchased from Microsoft, which charged well over market value.
      - cvwright 8y ago
        IIRC they were also using a clever (sneaky) application of copyright law to enforce this. They used a few special sectors on the disk to store an image to which they hold the copyright. The Xbox checks to make sure the image is there in the right spot before it will use the drive. So you can't pass off another drive as valid without violating their copyright.
        LgWoodenBadger 8y ago
        That was tried with early video game consoles, and did not succeed legally.
tinus_hn 8y ago
There is no Touch ID on the Mac Mini.
- bengale 8y ago
  It still has a T2 chip.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
OskarS 8y ago
That does make more sense than the size thing. Still wish Apple didn't do it, but that's a better excuse.

spacenick88 8y ago

Maybe Apple should build SSD storage thingies that are exactly the same size as the mini so they can be stacked. They're already stacking them for demos and it would definitely look cool. Especially if you get Thunderbolt cables that exactly match 1-4 mini heights (since it got 4 Thunderbolt ports) + daisy chaining.

robin_reala 8y ago
That’s been a thing from a lot of companies for past Minis (e.g. https://www.newertech.com/products/ministack_classic.php https://www.newertech.com/products/ministack_classic.php ); I see no reason why it won’t happen again.
bnycum 8y ago
Other World Computing (OWC) actually sells a device called a miniStack which is essentially that. An external enclosure the same form factor and design as the (last-generation) Mini. It's still uses an older USB 3 connection though, no daisy-chaining.
lebrad 8y ago
Contemporary SSD storage only takes up as much space as a pack of gum, just like sticks of RAM. Even SSDs with terabytes of capacity! Any desktop computer, even a small one, has all the physical space needed to have upgradeable storage.
- derefr 8y ago
  Yes, you could fit one m.2 SSD slot into a Mac Mini. But anyone who has a serious professional need for large storage (e.g. video editors), probably doesn't just want 2x-4x the internal storage, with the same bus-factor-of-1 fault-tolerance. No, they probably need either a Thunderbolt RAID array (that they can put into RAID5/6/10), or a SAN. And neither of those fit in a Mac Mini. (Though, a Thunderbolt RAID array of m.2 SSDs might fit in a Mac Mini-sized enclosure. Does anyone sell that?)
rswail 8y ago
Something that allows maybe 4 or more M.2 SSDs and 2 x TB3 controllers...

masklinn 8y ago

> I guess it matters less on a device like this where you could more easily use external storage, but still. I wish Apple stopped soldering in stuff and just made things a centimeter taller if that was the tradeoff. Here it's a bit more than just that: T2 is the secure boot system, but also the SSD controller (and a few other I/O things). They could have put an m.2 slot though.

protomyth 8y ago
I do wish they had gone with m.2. It really feels like T2 is wasted in the Mac mini and just there to check a feature list. It doesn't even make much sense in a machine that is turned off instead of put to sleep.
- fpoling 8y ago
  T2 is Apple’s SSD controller. I suppose Apple does not trust controllers from other manufacturers and has enough data to see that with T2 the storage is sufficiently realible not to warrant an option to replace it even at own service facilities.
  - protomyth 8y ago
    I assume they will have an expandable solution for the New Mac Pro which should of been put into the mini. This lack of repairablity is getting old.

sanketskasar 8y ago

I think it's more because of the PCIe interface, and access control and encryption through the T2 chip. The PCIe interfaces SSDs that Apple's been using allow really fast speeds of upto 3Gbps, which is almost double those offered by other interfaces like M2 or even more faster than SATA. What's disappointing is the base storage. 128GB in 2019 is so ridiculous. I would't otherwise mind a soldered SSD when I can just use the TB3 ports to connect external drive with virtually no performance loss. But 250GB internal storage is a necessity especially when the OS itself takes up almost 20GB out of the paltry 120GB.

isolli 8y ago
Is encryption optional? In general I'm more worried of forgetting my password (and thus losing all my data) than of unauthorized access to my home desktop.
- sneak 8y ago
  It provides an option to either display a long recovery key at first encryption (which you can store somewhere) or to archive it online with Apple in iCloud so that you have a second key available in the event that you lose your password. But also: backups. make backups.
- moftz 8y ago
  If you really don't care about unauthorized access, just write the password in sharpie on the box. I have a bunch of machines hooked up to test equipment that sit on their own network. I just write the username and password on the box and no one ever needs to worry about trying to find the sticky note or find me and ask or waste time guessing. The name of the computer, the username, and password are all the same and reflect what the box setup for.
  - Scoundreller 8y ago
    I do this with wifi passwords on routers. Though I use masking tape.
  - 8y ago

riobard 8y ago

Because of T2 being the SSD controller, chances are those soldered SSD chips are actually raw flash, in which case even if they use M.2 slot, you won’t find any 3rd party raw flash M.2 drive (without controller) anyway.

rayiner 8y ago

The trade-off isn't height--an M.2 slot takes up a relatively large amount of floor space on the motherboard. There's nowhere to put it: https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/ZLFbiRsOdiemeWLA.huge https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/ZLFbiRsOdiemeWLA.h....

ac29 8y ago
It doesn't take up that much space. Here's a Raspberry Pi sized board with an M.2 slot: https://www.cnx-software.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/RK3399-Raspberry-Pi-Board.jpg https://www.cnx-software.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/RK33... I think there'd easily be room, given that the soldered-on NAND chips could be removed from the board. edit: If you're wondering how that works, here's a hint: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/ThomasKaiser/Knowledge/master/media/RockPi_4B_with_M2_Extension.jpg https://raw.githubusercontent.com/ThomasKaiser/Knowledge/mas...
emsy 8y ago
My previous Mac Mini had 2 HDD slots and upgradable ram, so it IS possible, for Apple even. Apple has gotten from a 1 step backwards, 2 forwards to a 1 step forwards 2 backwards company. The devices where they removed optical drives were groundbreaking. Nowadays their devices are compromise ridden.
cptskippy 8y ago
There's plenty of room for an M.2 module, especially on the backside of the board which is how they're traditionally mounted on desktop ITX boards. https://i.imgur.com/dW0ynV7.png https://i.imgur.com/dW0ynV7.png They can also be mounted at an angle just like those SO-DIMM slots. The M.2 standard even supports 12mm, 16mm, and 30mm width modules in addition to the 22mm that seems to have become the norm. Apple could still be a dick by using a 12mm or 16mm card while still supporting the standard.
- blattimwind 8y ago
  > They can also be mounted at an angle just like those SO-DIMM slots. Stand-off M.2 sockets are a standard part, because a number of mainboards put components under the M.2 slot.

stefan_ 8y ago

They also of course charge $1400 on top for a 2TB SSD, a user accessible storage medium would simply eat into the margins real quick. That was the tradeoff, and it's why the base models have so little storage.

MrTonyD 8y ago

Not justifying anything...but back when Steve was alive I had a conversation with him on this topic. I was at NeXT writing drivers (NeXTStep) and I had tested a few disk drives on my cube. When I suggested that we might certify them, Steve said that he wanted simplicity, and only wanted to provide a few well-tested and working choices - so he didn't want more than a few basic choices. He also said (disparagingly) that more sophisticated users would figure out how to change things. From his tone I got the impression that it was ok if they did that, but we weren't going to support them at all. Such users weren't our target market, since all my interactions with Steve were focused on beauty and simplicity (Steve wasn't technical at all, as has been well documented - and I can certainly confirm.)

C1sc0cat 8y ago

I have always though a Mac Midi slightly wider by an inch and 3x-$x the Hight and able to take a short graphics card update with more options would have been a good basic mac for a lot of apple shops. Or even a mac using the Shuttle SFF size

bluegreyred 8y ago

Would it be feasible to order the model with the smallest buil tin storage and put the home (/User/*) directories on a fast external TB3 SSD?

mbell 8y ago

It has 4 Thunderbolt 3 ports, you don't really need to upgrade the internal storage when you plug in as much storage as you want and not pay much if any performance penalty.

stcredzero 8y ago

Someone should sell a kit that replaces the bottom panel of the new Mac Mini with a slightly thicker one containing an "external" NVMe drive enclosure. It could be coupled with a piece which replaces the Mac Mini power plug assembly, which could then tap mains power, allowing the "external" enclosure to be a Thunderbolt 3 NVMe enclosure. (Could have thicker ones for thin profile and regular 2.5" SATA drives.)

kllrnohj 8y ago

The bigger problem isn't that it's not user-upgradable, it's that you can't access your data in the event of a failure of any other component. Cap blew on the motherboard? Data gone. CPU kicked the bucket? Data gone. Spilled water on it? Data gone. Not literally gone, of course, just practically. No chance of popping the drive out and trying it elsewhere to recover data. Nope. And since Apple never repairs only replaces, you're not going to have any hope of saving your data with official repair support. That's absolutely insane for consumer tech where backups are rare.

PhantomGremlin 8y ago
That's absolutely insane for consumer tech where backups are rare. Are backups really rare? Apple couldn't have made it easier to plug in a backup disk. Plug one in and you immediately get asked if you want to use it with Time Machine. I can't imagine an easier backup solution. I agree with the rest of your comment. Any component failure means losing all your data.