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It doesn't help that job ads are wanting "Top 3% only!" or "Only top 1% Ninja Rockstars need apply!". Kind of reminds me of the market for singers or concert p

• thwy12321 8y ago
  The trick is these companies arent hiring top 1% talent, they're hiring top 1% interviewing talent.
  • wil421 8y ago
    Do the 1% apply to jobs with such descriptions? I’m not in the 1% in my domain and I wouldn’t touch a job with those words or phrases in the description.
    • pmiller2 8y ago
      I would imagine the real top 1% (if there were a good way to quantify that) never “apply” anywhere.
      • JustSomeNobody 8y ago
        Yeah, I can't image someone like John Carmack having to apply anywhere.
  • EddieRingle 8y ago
    The appropriate response is to ask for a top-1% salary, of course.
    • cynicalkane 8y ago
      Nowdays a senior role at FAANG will often pay a top 1% salary, and salary growth at these companies shows no signs of stopping.
      • vonmoltke 8y ago
        How senior? Obviously not at the seniority I was just offered by Google (and rejected).
        • deleted 8y ago
          [deleted]
  • konschubert 8y ago
    Exactly. The bottom 10% of engineering talent probably fill the bottom 90% of interviewing talent.
• eseehausen 8y ago
  Based on my experience, people who can acknowledge their issues and accurately compensate for them are more valuable than most of the people who think they're the top 1-3%. Obviously you have people who think they are, and it's actually accurate, but I assume they're doing just fine with their half-mill+ salaries at FANG. The rest of the world needs programmers, too, and a little bit of humility and willingness to keep improving goes a long way. Maybe just keep that and learn to be a little more obnoxious in the self-assessments you give to others?
  • CodeCube 8y ago
    Like I always tell my kids, "Let other people tell you that you're awesome, just don't say it first" ;)
• bytematic 8y ago
  Kids at the top schools feel the same symptoms too. It's an eery environment out there
• nradov 8y ago
  Obviously those numbers are silly because it's impossible to precisely quantify the relative ratings of knowledge workers. But generally that percentage is very much context dependant. Someone who was top 10% at one role in one organization could easily be bottom 10% in a different role at a different organization.
• erikb 8y ago
  You must really suffer from imposter syndrome if you can't find a company that is worse than you at software development.
  • duxup 8y ago
    Just because they're bad (or worse) at it and you're better doesn't mean they'll hire you. That probabbly is why they're bad (or worse) at it.
• saulrh 8y ago
  Notice that, when they say they only hire the top 1%, there's a vicious sampling bias at work: even in a worst case where they're being literal they're actually hiring the top 1% of their applicants, not the top 1% of engineers. Think about how many jobs you usually apply for before getting one. Now imagine someone that's less successful than you at getting hired and think about how many times they're interviewing. Now think about the population that the interviewer sees. Now add college students that are just practicing and people that are required to interview for every job on the board to maintain unemployment. Now think about how much time interviewing you spend for every day working and how that might change as a function of quality - staying longer at better places, maybe? I obviously don't have any statistics, but I think I could imagine a situation where the top 95% of software people constitute the top 1% of the interviewing population. Also one where interviewers are terrible at math, but that's no surprise. Anyway, you're fine, just go for it. That fact that you are self-aware enough to worry about it puts you in good standing all by itself.
  • nestorD 8y ago
    There is a great article on the fact that everybody hires only the top 1% : https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2005/01/27/news-58/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2005/01/27/news-58/
    • spectre256 8y ago
      The fact that people still parrot the top 1% idea after it was pretty thoroughly debunked by Joel almost 15 years ago is...interesting.
      • mmirate 8y ago
        When you discover that an intuitive result is wrong, the production of a thorough debunking is but a tiny sliver of the total work needed to change the world's minds away from that wrong result.
      • jobigoud 8y ago
        We are still making many of the mistakes laid out in The Mythical Man-Month so…
• ravenstine 8y ago
  There's another similar problem that I'm seeing that I don't think has been pointed out before. Recently, I've been applying for web developer positions and am coming across applications with these sorts of questions: - What's the coolest thing you've done both in life and at work? - What are your dreams? - Where do you see yourself in 10 years? I certainly do have answers for these questions, but I can't tell if they're the ones that employers want to hear. And are these things for other random people to know? There are things I've done that I think are cool, but that doesn't necessarily mean that most people will think they are cool. Honestly, there really isn't anything about my life that is conventionally cool, even by the standards of the nerdiest nerds. Should my life have been more unique and exciting by this point? The same can basically be said of my dreams, although I do not aspire for big dreams. I haven't made enough money yet to even think about anything more grandiose than simply living comfortably. Do my dreams need to be more exciting? Should I be shooting the moon? I feel like any honest answer I give to the question will sound disappointing to any startup. Should I see myself anywhere in particular in 10 years? Beyond making more money and taking on more responsibilities in my career, where should I be in 10 years? My field evolves so rapidly that I can't honestly predict that far ahead, let alone 5 years into the future. But maybe I'm not cut out for what I do if I can't see that far ahead? I could very well be what's wrong in the picture, but it seems to me like we are culturally intolerant of "normal" people who have a skill and want to make a living. Everyone needs to have dreams, grand aspirations, and a little clairvoyance. I tend to have pretty high confidence, but seeing this kind of language when applying for jobs does stir up that feeling of imposterhood in me.
  • aplummer 8y ago
    > What's the coolest thing you've done both in life and at work? - What are your dreams? - Where do you see yourself in 10 years? Hey, I ask a lot of these questions in consulting. What I’m looking for is to tell if a) you can communicate a point clearly b) if you can talk generally about your career and are growth oriented. If you said that field evolves rapidly bit above that would be a good answer. If you span it as a joke “surely writing angular 25, the last web framework ever” even better. I wouldn’t ask the dreams question, but the coolest question is loaded with coolest, I would say “tell me about a previous project you enjoyed working on” and see if you have had a good project you are passionate about.
• JustSomeNobody 8y ago
  > "Top 3% only!" or "Only top 1% Ninja Rockstars need apply!" Do people apply to these places? I don't. Ever. Not that I feel bad about myself, but I don't ever ever want to work for a manager who approves this type of job ad.
  • commandlinefan 8y ago
    I worked at one. I didn't apply - I was recruited by the owner (he knew me from a past job), so I didn't go through the interview process, he just asked me if I'd come work for him, quoted a number, and I said, "yeah, sure". It was a struggling startup, but it was making (some) money, and had (some) potential. But man, when I started interviewing people - he'd tell me, "we only take the best of the best", it was a struggle for me not to point out that the best of the best - or even the worst of the best - or even the best of the worst - had much, much better options than a struggling, no-name startup with no outside capital that was renting office space from an office hotel (and cramming people five to a room). I would go through rounds and rounds of interviewing people, determining that they were perfectly acceptable and would fit in well in the environment we had and could get the job done and help us move forward, and he'd reject them because they were "average". I was like, "so are you, you self-important idiot!"
    • dabockster 8y ago
      > office hotel Is that what we're calling co-working spaces these days? I can get on board with that.
      • dagw 8y ago
        Is that what we're calling co-working spaces these days? It's at least what we where calling them in most of Europe long before the term "co-working space" was invented.
  • rothron 8y ago
    Wouldn't an ad like that attract the biggest egos, not necessarily the best coders, nor people you would ever want to be on a team with?
• corodra 8y ago
  Saw a similar title, back in Seattle 2013 timeframe. Top 1% of ninja dev guru superstar something or other. The days when ninja was titled on EVERYTHING. So cringey. Had to have a masters in CS. I think it was 5 years of experience or something in a big tech firm only. Lots of conflicting programming languages and tech as well. Pay: $35,000 a year. It's not hard to find relevant examples these days though. Thankfully, ninja is no longer acceptable. Makes me imagine they literally are not looking for someone. It's got to be a scam of some sort. I heard these types are posts are put up so firms can bank off of some sort of "lack of experience" in their area tax break or something. Rumor, read on internet. I don't know. Never understood it.
  • jki275 8y ago
    Sounds like a way to do H1B fraud.
    • corodra 8y ago
      That was it! I think that's what I heard back in the day. It just sucks that kids these days are judging themselves off these bullshit advertisements. Now they're getting mental issues where they don't have a good self-image in their skill sets. Jesus...it's like the fashion industry for young girls...
      • geggam 8y ago
        How is that different from the past ?
        • RugnirViking 8y ago
          Depends on how far you go back - it wasn't that long ago in the grand scheme of things that in most places/industries there was no reliable way to get information about job listings - your best bet was to go to a recruiter or go directly to the front desk and ask about vacancies
          • 8y ago
• moomin 8y ago
  Those kind of adverts self-select for people with incorrect estimations of their own ability. Don’t be shocked when the environment turns out to be a cess-pit with no psychological safety.
• fhbdukfrh 8y ago
  Once you have your first job, the top 80% are rarely ever again actively looking unless they have some sort of extenuating circumstances, so the reality is they're only going to hire the to 1% of the bottom 20% The top 5, 10, 20 out even 50% rarely hit the open market, inbound recruitment process. They get poached or go where former coworkers are
  • vonmoltke 8y ago
    Am I really that much of an aberration in this industry? I definitely consider myself in the top 50%, and I'm probably in the top 20%. In 16 years I am only on my fourth company, have only been "poached" once (and I was trying to get poached), and can count on two hands the number of former coworkers who are not either retired or still at the companies I left them at. Of course, I spent the first 14 of those years in Dallas and the first 9.5 of those at a poor choice of company. I spent years having applications ignored. I sometimes wonder if thinking like this had something to do with that.
• kradroy 8y ago
  It's less of a thing to put that childish language in a job posting these days. It'll come around again though. The more insidious thing is the requirements themselves. They're usually broad and often don't fit the role well, especially for roles above entry level. And sometimes I even come across entry level postings that seem too demanding. I recently had to proof-read a job req for a lead dev role on our team. It was insane and the person it was targeted at 1) wouldn't work for the compensation we were offering 2) would likely be running their own business. When I gave my opinion to my manager he said "If we can get someone who can meet a third of those requirements and doesn't come off as an asshole, we'll give them an offer." My husband is applying for jobs now and he says the same thing about senior positions he's come across. "This seems like it's a director's role, not a senior!" I tell him to apply anyway because they're just chest-puffing and won't find that ideal candidate before they make a desperation hire. Those types of whacked out reqs are written by the employees who are exiting the role. They're likely exiting the role because they took on a bunch of extra responsibilities and weren't getting substantial raises or promotions. If you can do half the shit they did, you'll probably be fine. Although you'll eventually end up leaving that role for the same reasons the guy before you did.
  • ethagnawl 8y ago
    This is insightful and reassuring. Thanks for sharing.
• ericmcer 8y ago
  I feel like a fairly average programmer. I have a few coworkers who are a little better, but when the CEO is talking about the engineering team it is always "world class" and an "amazingly talented team of engineers". I think the "genius programmer" stuff is just part of the tech industry.
• C1sc0cat 8y ago
  Where do you see those sort of job postings I haven't seen many of those sort of adds - a tiny hand full less that 5 that I remember.
• dev_north_east 8y ago
  There's a recruiter on LinkedIn I saw has taken to put the following into every job post "Only looking for the best of the best. No time wasters please." Reminds me of a dating site.
• tathougies 8y ago
  Who has taught people today to lack confidence? I found my first software job out of high school by simply lying about my experience. I believed I was capable of doing the job advertised, so I said that I had ten years of experience (the requirement). I was called back, interviewed, and hired. What is the big deal here? If you believe you can do it, then who cares what the job description says; just apply. If you don't believe you can do it, apply anyway. There is literally no drawback to applying for a job and there is little draw back to lying about it. When I was finally offered the job, I told the HR person that I had lied on my resume, and he said that he admired by chutzpah. No one is going to fire you for coming clean after being given a promise of employment. And, if they do decide not to offer the job to you, you still haven't lost anything.