23 ms·

Scooters are taking cars off the road, a survey says

195 points by prostoalex 8y ago

fosk 8y ago
One of the biggest complaint I have been hearing is that scooters take space on sidewalks, and we are so used to cars that we don’t see that cars not only also occupy way more real estate around the city (heck, think of dedicated parking lanes), but are even more deadly/dangerous. The elephant in the room are cars, not scooters. Then we have city administrations like in San Francisco - fighting useless battles against scooters instead of fixing real problems (homelessness, drug abuse, feces, and so on) that - unlike scooters - really are negatively affecting the life of us all.
- eeeeeeeeeeeee 8y ago
  I agree and disagree. Cars are in spaces engineered and designed for cars. Scooters have been tossed into a space made for slow human movement so they’re dangerous in operation and a nuisance at rest (I often see them parked in the middle of the sidewalk).
- godzillabrennus 8y ago
  Scooters = making money Homeless drug addicts = Losing money Hence why San Francisco did something about the scooters. So sad that it’s now becoming known globally as poop city.
  - drb91 8y ago
    It’s easy to describe SF as far worse than a “poop city”, which is frankly overblown anyway. Maybe “the city where the rich are content to listen to people die on their doorstep”.
    - graeme 8y ago
      The SV people I follow on twitter don't seem too content. A bit part of the issue is lack of shelters, which aren't built to to limited funding or zoning restrictions, correct? SF doesn't actually have more homeless per capita, they just have more unsheltered people. And most come from the bay area. I don't know the exact cause of the problem, but if it was a problem money could solve on its own it would have been done already. The homelessness issue in SF is pereniall bad press for tech companies.
      - wilde 8y ago
        I’m not sure the companies see it that way. There’s money but it’s going to protect their tax breaks. https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/10/san-francisco-prop-c-homeless-ballot-measure/573358/ https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/10/san-francisco-prop-c-...
      - coldtea 8y ago
        >The SV people I follow on twitter don't seem too content. Actions show that, not lip service.
        WillPostForFood 8y ago
        And talk about literally self selected.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
    - thatswrong0 8y ago
      It’s really not overblown. I live downtown.
      - drb91 8y ago
        Me too! But there are dogs and homeless people all over; poop management issues are really not unique to SF. I am in Germany at the moment and my poop-dodging skills are still in high use.
        thatswrong0 8y ago
        Compared to other major American cities like Chicago or NYC though, it’s really really bad. It’s not even close. The number of times I’ve seen people actively shitting in front of me is way too damn high.
        drb91 8y ago
        Homeless? Sure, why not. Shitting in front of me? The world is ending.
  - ido 8y ago
    Serious question from semi-frequent visitor to SF: I come every couple of years for a conference in downtown SF (Moscone Center) and always stay a whole week (so I can walk around town before/after the conference - usually going north and west towards the shore/golden gate bridge). I have not throughout the years noticed the supposed infestation of human faeces. I see a lot of homeless people, but not more than, say, Berlin. And I would say the parts of the city I walk through (and especially the parks!) are actually cleaner than Berlin (and Berlin is not that dirty). Am I just not staying/walking through the really bad parts? Or missing something else? Or does it just take longer exposure to notice?
    - ido 8y ago
      BTW this is the park that I was thinking about: https://goo.gl/maps/XDYaADoK7662 https://goo.gl/maps/XDYaADoK7662 And I would venture a guess that NO parks within anywhere remotely central locations in Berlin are as clean as this one - not just no used needles/broken bottles but not even "pedestrian" litter like thrown packaging or paper. I don't think you would even commonly find cigarette butts on the grass.
      - et-al 8y ago
        Yerba Buena Gardens is more of a corporate garden. Check out all the rules they have: https://ybgfestival.org/visitor-info/#rules https://ybgfestival.org/visitor-info/#rules Basically don't do anything but sit, eat your lunch, and look at your phone. The amount of staff people there during the daytime is unlike any other park in SF.
        ido 8y ago
        Ok fair enough! I didn't know that, it was just the nearest park to Moscone so I assumed this is what public parks look like in downtown SF.
    - TACIXAT 8y ago
      I think you might just not be tuned into it. I've gone into the city 3 times since moving to San Jose and I've seen it every time. My girlfriend just did an interview in SF and the building she was interviewing at had feces smeared on the window.
  - loceng 8y ago
    "Homeless drug addicts = Losing money" Imagine drug dealers actually cared about using some of their profits to take care of people, and hoping that they maintain the use of their drugs - helping the user become more productive, have more money, therefore be able to buy more drugs.. I suppose that's what legalizing drug use is all about, bringing it into the public eye, and allowing government and other health services more access to people to help them.
    - blfr 8y ago
      Turning drug addicts into serfs like in Interstate 60[1]. Perhaps it would be an improvement but doesn't seem like a desirable end goal. [1] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0165832/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0165832/
- jackvalentine 8y ago
  Right? Remove one car spot on each street for dedicated hire bike/scooter parking.
  - agumonkey 8y ago
    how many scooters can one fit into a single parking spot 10 ? 20 ?
    - pavel_lishin 8y ago
      More than one.
    - lostapathy 8y ago
      Typical electric rental scootere? Like 150, with a simple rack you can stack them like cordwood.
- loceng 8y ago
  I wonder are the scooter users (or the companies renting them) going to pay for changing parking spaces into scooter parking spaces - or is general society going to fit that bill if it ever comes? Likewise, something I rarely seen is the indirect cost of the reduced safety/increased accidents/collisions related to scooter use brought up as part of the big picture; who's paying for that depends on each country's current state of healthcare.
  - amanaplanacanal 8y ago
    Hmmm. Who paid for the car parking spaces? Probably the city. I'm not sure why this should be any different.
    - loceng 8y ago
      It's a question to bring up a conversation relating to costs. What if scooters are a fad? What if autonomous vehicles eventually make the cost of transport less for due to the added cost of having to pay people to pickup and move the scooters back to their high demand pickup locations? There's further analysis that could go into this - to then decide if or when it is a reasonable idea to cover the cost. Another consideration/question is that I believe in many places the tax on gas helps pay for infrastructure, and I don't know if electric vehicles have this tax to cover the same road-related costs.
- e40 8y ago
  One of the biggest complaint I have been hearing is that scooters take space on sidewalks As a 4+ mile/day pedestrian, the biggest complaint I have is many of them are ridden on the sidewalk. I've had too many close calls to count. I can't wait for the rainy season to start, so I won't need to worry about them anymore. In CA, there is a state law that prevents them from being ridden on the sidewalk, yet the police in my city won't enforce it. Mayor told them "hands off" and near as I can tell, the Mayor is working a deal with the scooter companies. Money over safety. Disgusting.
  - therealdrag0 8y ago
    It's pretty scary to ride bike/scooter next to cars. Seems like a much better compromise to ride on the sidewalk when uncomfortable than the alternative. There just needs to be some sort of enforcement against ass-holery for those riding.
    - e40 8y ago
      I suspect you haven't spend time on the sidewalk with scooters whizzing around you. They are not safe, and cannot be (on the sidewalk). Pedestrians do not have lanes. When I step around the dog crap in front of me, I could be hit be a scooter operator not giving me enough space for my maneuver.
      - m4x 8y ago
        > They are not safe, and cannot be (on the sidewalk) This is a strange thing to say. It's clearly false, and the alternative (putting them on the road) is clearly less safe. I do think that the current model where Bird etc allow new users to jump on and go is problematic. It will probably work fine in the future when everybody knows how you are expected to ride them (i.e. full speed on the foot path is not cool), but at the moment things are a bit of a free for all. There's too much excitement when you get on for the first time, and no experienced riders to cool you down.
        e40 8y ago
- wpietri 8y ago
  It is true that cars are currently worse offenders than scooters. But I commend San Francisco for catching this problem while it's still small. Private cars are at least used and placed by individuals. (As are private scooters, which nobody objects to.) Companies have no intrinsic right to convert public space to their place of business. Asking them to get a permit and limiting the amount of public space given for free to venture-funded companies seems fine by me. If you're serious about fighting the problem of excess space devoted to cars, then you'll surely be strongly for establishing the principle that the city should work to make public space for the public. I also strongly question your theory that the SF's transportation agency could or should be working on drug abuse and homelessness. I think San Francisco employs enough people that different departments can and should stick to what they're tasked with..
neverminder 8y ago
In the mean time electric scooters are illegal in UK because of some 200 year old law that talks about pigs and donkeys (http://uk.businessinsider.com/electric-scooters-illegal-1835-highways-act-2018-8 http://uk.businessinsider.com/electric-scooters-illegal-1835...). Even so I see an increasing number of people using them, because apparently cops just turn a blind eye, which does make sense, unlike this law.
- buckhx 8y ago
  They're technically illegal in NYC as well, but I bought one and it's been pretty great.
- Symbiote 8y ago
  This is strange behavior from a disruptive Silicon Valley startup. Why have they suicide to comply with the law this time? :) I support the law, most British towns don't have enough space for electric scooters and pedestrians to mix — recover some space, for example by changing a car lane into two cycle lanes, and then we can discuss where scooters belong. They're very rare in Copenhagen, but like longboards, rollerskates, and fast children on kick scooters, people use them in the cycle lane.
  - jstanley 8y ago
    I think cycle lanes are more likely to be created after scooters take up too much space, not before.
  - andygcook 8y ago
    The scooter companies have to comply because scooters are easy for city officials to ban. They just have Public Works confiscate them off the streets by looking at the app. That’s exactly what happened where I live in Cambridge, MA. Bird/Lime showed up and the city took all their scooters.
- arthurfm 8y ago
  The law regarding > 250w e-bikes is ridiculous too and badly needs updating. https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/advice/buying-and-riding-an-s-pedelec-in-the-uk-1637 https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/advice/buying-and-r...
adrianN 8y ago
Scooters and electric bicycles are the sensible form of electric mobility, but everybody talks about electric cars. Which makes sense, since billion dollar companies can make a lot more money selling cars than cheap scooters and bicycles. Small electric vehicles effectively solve the last mile problem of public transport.
- KozmoNau7 8y ago
  Electric cars are more impressive to the average person, especially the quiet smooth acceleration compared to ICE cars. And of course they have AC and comfy seats and all that, which appeals to people's comfortable laziness. But the real transport revolution is a combination of public transit and bikes/scooters for the so-called last mile.
- clarry 8y ago
  > Scooters and electric bicycles are the sensible form of electric mobility, but everybody talks about electric cars. Yes, because cars make sense when you've got more than your own arse to haul. Or when you don't want to end up in your destination dripping wet. Or when you want to sit in a warm cabin instead of fighting frostburns on a bicycle. Or when you don't want to be slipping on ice or getting stuck in snow..
  - gregknicholson 8y ago
    You could get most of those things using an electric cargo bike with a canopy roof/windscreen. It wouldn't solve the Fred Flintstone problem — The Man must provide the propulsion for all of his family because Man — but that's a social hurdle, not a technical one.
    - clarry 8y ago
      I don't think it's roof or windscreen, it's both if you want to stay dry. That's a big increase in size, mass, and wind resistance (including susceptibility to side winds that can tip you over). That might have you consider having more than two wheels for stability, and windshield wipers, and a big battery to haul all that... at some point, we'll be wondering whether it's a car with pedals or a bike? https://www.daimler.com/company/tradition/company-history/1885-1886.html https://www.daimler.com/company/tradition/company-history/18...
edaemon 8y ago
As a resident of Portland (where the survey was conducted), the results match with my experience. Everyone seems to like them and they often replace short car trips. The only complaint I've heard with any frequency is that they're left in annoying places. Having used them a bit myself, there are four improvements I'd like to see: 1. Charging stations. While the current model where the scooters are collected and charged by people seems to get along, it's a bummer that they aren't easy to find at night. Most of them have been collected for charging. That means you can ride them somewhere and then not have one for the ride back, especially if you're in a group of people. It's also not that uncommon to be somewhere you'd expect to find one but with none nearby, or there are some but scattered over a few blocks. It would be nice if there were some stations scattered around the city where the scooters could be taken for charging but still be available for use, especially in high traffic areas and/or transit nodes like light rail stations (see #2). Even better if there's some incentive to drop them off there. That may help with the poor parking issue. 2. Integration with public transit. As it currently is, riding transit round-trip costs $5. If you use a scooter to get to public transit it costs $7 + $0.15/min of scooter riding. I'd guess that works out to around $15 total for most trips, which is plenty. To encourage their use as a supplement to public transit, it would be great if they were integrated with public transit; e.g. using public transit waives the $1 start fee, or using public transit waives the first 10-15 minutes of scooter cost, incentivized charging stations at public transit locations, etc. Portland has the Hop fastpass system which could work nicely for the first two. 3. Get rid of the helmet requirement. I don't hate it but I don't think it's effective or useful. 4. The lights need to be better. While it's not that difficult to see a scooter at night because they're all lit, the lights don't provide much visibility for the rider.
- masklinn 8y ago
  > 1. Charging stations. That has high up-front costs which I'm guessing is why these startups don't do it, plus it requires negotiating with the city, and assuming your customers are not selfish assholes (that's an assumption which is not going to hold). If you want charging stations, aside from the city negotiation and up-front costs you need to strongly incentivise their use and have permanent crew roaming around to move devices back to charging stations, and for high-traffic areas that's probably not going to be sufficient: your average e-k-scooter takes a couple hours to charge to 80%. Battery-swapping (gogoro & co) is a pretty good alternative there as your "charging station" becomes a large bank of batteries you can swap in/out, but it requires room for standardised user-swappable batteries, and an actual standard. Not really an option for e-k-scooters where the battery is underfoot and at least partially structural.
scoot_718 8y ago
A study in Portland? Good luck making conclusions from that data.
dumbo1 8y ago
Scooters have somewhat of a negative stigma in London [1], unless of course the scooter has a Deliveroo, JustEat or other courier on it. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jun/07/moped-enabled-crimes-london-police-called-to-430-a-week-in-past-year https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jun/07/moped-enable...
- em500 8y ago
  Your link is about mopeds, not scooters. (Confusingly, mopeds are often called scooters in non-English speaking countries.)
  - TomMarius 8y ago
    Even more confusingly, "moped" often means a less powerful "scooter". In Czech, "moped" is 50ccm, scooter ("skůtr", pronounced the same) is up to 125ccm.
    - mcjiggerlog 8y ago
      That's generally what they mean in most countries, in my experience.
      - masklinn 8y ago
        Yep, except the US where scooter means kick-scooter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kick_scooter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kick_scooter
        gregknicholson 8y ago
        That's what “scooter” means in the UK too.
        DonaldFisk 8y ago
        In the UK, a "scooter" can be either a kick scooter like the one shown in the article or here: https://www.microkickboard.com/childrens-scooters https://www.microkickboard.com/childrens-scooters , or a motor scooter, like the ones shown here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scooter_(motorcycle) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scooter_(motorcycle) , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mod_(subculture) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mod_(subculture) This is a moped: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped . It has bicycle pedals and a motor. You don't see them much nowadays. There have recently been many reports of "moped crime": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped_crime_in_London https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped_crime_in_London but this seems to be done on motor scooters rather than mopeds: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/terrifying-moment-west-end-motorbike-raiders-wielding-hammer-and-crowbar-target-pedestrians-a3531461.html https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/terrifying-moment-west...
monstrado 8y ago
As a resident of Raleigh, NC..I can say the feedback has been unexpectedly positive. Although, many people approve of the scooter situation, there has been a couple shortcomings: * Riding on sidewalks!! Not only does the app discourage you from doing it, but most scooters have wrtitten warnings suggesting not to do it. * Complete disregard for the rules of the road. I actually sympathize with people who ride scooters. It turns out, the majority are not cyclists, and so, when suddenly put people in charge of such devices they revert to what they know (and are comfortable with), sticking to the sidewalks. Furthermore, the few that do meander into the road do not know the actual rules of the road. That is, bike / cycling rules. Once the scooter hits the streets it should be treated as a bicycle. It should remain in the right side of the lane (assuming there's no bike lane), should produce all of the turn signals, and should definitely yield as any cyclist would. (I totally get that you might roll through a stop sign because theres nobody around, and there's no point in coming to a complete stop) Anyway, this is is my mini-rant from having these things dropped off in my town for the last few months.
- lizknope 8y ago
  I live in Raleigh too and work downtown. When walking on the sidewalks I've almost been run over by scooters about 8 times and been hit twice by jackets flying behind and to the side of the rider. I was okay but it did hurt. All of my coworkers hate the things and some of them are ready to ban them. For the first 2 months everyone I saw on a scooter was riding them on sidewalks. It seems to have gotten better in the last 2 months with scooter riders in the roads.
  - ghaff 8y ago
    I hadn't been in Raleigh 4 hours last week and I almost got run down on one of the narrower sidewalks.
sonnyblarney 8y ago
What blows me away is that the US had not discovered 'regular scooter' culture. I mean the scooters like mopeds. They are common in almost every country outside North America! In Paris you see this beautiful girl, flowing dress, like out of a magazine - and she's on her moped! Out to dinner or whatever, it's normal. They are cheap and they take up the same space as a bicycle. If SF made a few 'moped / bicycle' only streets, like a grid in downtown, where traffic just flew by and was fast ... maybe you'd see tons of people make the switch.
- dominotw 8y ago
  1. Is it less safe? 2. Only works in cities with good weather all year long. I don't want to ride a moped in flowing dress in chicago winter. 3. Cities in US are spread out. I don't want to ride a moped on the highway to work or a friends house. 4. Top speed is very low. Safe top speed is even less.
  - aeturnum 8y ago
    1. Than what? You'd rather be in a car than a moped if you crash, but creating an environment where crashes are less likely is most effective. 2. I understand why you say this, but it's obviously untrue. Google "Paris in winter" to see what I mean. 3. Mopeds only replace some forms of transport. Europe still has airports for instance - people to no moped across the atlantic.
    - dominotw 8y ago
      2. Cars are still main transport in Paris afaik. Paris is a bad example of ppl riding mopeds in winter. 3. I am not talking about transport between cities. Cities themselves are spread out. I cannot go from suburb of chicago to work downtown on a moped.
    - jahewson 8y ago
      Big difference between 3C and -8C not to mention the wind. My friend who lives in Chicago wears a ski mask to walk from the car. I don’t think you realise quite how cold much of the US gets.
stephengillie 8y ago
> The Portland Bureau of Transportation sent a questionnaire to 75,000 scooter users and received 4,500 responses. At least there's no question of the obvious bias. Of course scooter riders are going to report that they use scooters more than cars. How would the survey results be different if they surveyed car users too?
usaphp 8y ago
But scooters are only useful in good weather, I don’t think anyone would ride a scooter in winter in Chicago or New York. So I don’t really think they have a future of completely replacing cars throughout the year
- pmorici 8y ago
  I think you overestimate the extent to which it matters. People tend to stay home in bad weather car or not. I wouldn't take a scooter out on plowed streets but once the storm has passed and the streets have been plowed I don't see why you couldn't use a scooter in winter.
  - vthallam 8y ago
    Because of the cold wind. Snow is one thing, but the cold wind blowing at you is something people won't be comfortable facing while on a scooter. But yeah, 40F-60F's is completely okay for a shorter scooter rides I guess.
    - mitchty 8y ago
      I've gone for runs in -30 weather, its not that bad if you cover up your skin. 40-60F is short sleeve/shorts weather around here for me. Around freezing is when it starts getting fun to run. Yes I'm an abberation but I didn't start out this way.
      - usaphp 8y ago
        You do realize that 99% of people feel cold in 40F. Think about the majority of population. Most of them don’t run and just want to do their business by using scooter
        mitchty 8y ago
        > You do realize that 99% of people feel cold in 40F. Yes, I addressed that in my last sentence. You presume I don't feel the cold, I do, I've just learnt how to tolerate it. Buddhist monks can dry wet towels in -40 weather. The human body is rather more tolerant of cold than you might think. Also, source on 99%?
dpflan 8y ago
On the HN front page today along with this post is this one: - Study Links Uber and Lyft to Increase in U.S. Traffic Deaths - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18318609 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18318609 I am enjoying watching the ecosystem of personal transport shift and take affect on society. I find it fascinating to see the positives and negatives become highlighted as people use the services more, creating more scenarios and observations. What are others' experiences and observations of the introduction of these transportation networks and what the future of, let's focus, city / densely populated areas? Does the future really look like: a gradient of number of wheels and carry-capacity: from light-weight electric scooters on demand to electric cars to freight-trucks on demand? What is needed to sustain and to drive this change in transportation culture towards an efficient and safer (reduced transportation related fatalities, reduced carbon emissions, reduced time in long commutes)? My perspective is certainly influenced by my experiences living in cities the United States.
- Pharmakon 8y ago
  If current vehicle sales are an indicator, the future is still a lot of trucks and SUVs. Most Americans seem more concerned with comfort, lots of space, and the ability to survive a collision with another vehicle over changing society. Maybe it looks different in the Silicon Valley bubble, but outside of that it’s trucks, SUVs and crossovers.
  - dpflan 8y ago
    That’s a good point. I would like to see those numbers myself, seems useful to understand the different bubbles that exist. What do you think of European nations imposing deadlines for the final sales of fossil-fueled automobiles?
    - Pharmakon 8y ago
      I think it’s nice in theory, but the dates proposed are beyond the likely political careers of the people proposing them which makes me suspicious. It would also be very easy to keep pushing back the deadline. It’s the kind of policy which costs nothing today, and racks up feel-good points for more than a decade without actually making a plan or doing anything like investing in that future.
kumarvvr 8y ago
I would kill for a two person electric vehicle with a dome to protect the occupants from wind, dust and rain. I don't get why there are not such transport systems. It would be a great cross between a car and a motorcycle.
- rocky1138 8y ago
  I want this, too. It seems there have been a few companies to do it, but never cheaply. Something more than $1000? Forget it. Just give me a simple plexiglass dome and be done with it.
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  They did those in the 70s; not sure if any were electric though. There's Microlino now though https://www.treehugger.com/cars/micro-cars-are-back-electric-microlino.html https://www.treehugger.com/cars/micro-cars-are-back-electric...
- nickhalfasleep 8y ago
  https://www.zelectricvehicle.com/t3-1-micro-enclosed-trike https://www.zelectricvehicle.com/t3-1-micro-enclosed-trike
- _ph_ 8y ago
  The Renault Twizy would fit your description.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  They do. It's called a golf cart with doors.
leowoo91 8y ago
So it is now Uber vs Tesla vs Scooters.
patcon 8y ago
EDIT: redacted
- macintux 8y ago
  I’d argue encouraging bikes to be on the sidewalk are a negative trend. Hopefully that’s not a long-term change.
nickhalfasleep 8y ago
Scooters are great for taking cars of single, able bodied individuals; who are usually the most numerous in dense city centers. For people with kids, elderly, the infirm, a four wheeled vehicle with cargo space is still desired.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- devdas 8y ago
  Bicycles, buses, trams and light rail. All useful alternatives.
- apsec112 8y ago
  A lot of people can't safely own and operate a car, either, whether due to poverty, age, or disability. While no transportation mode is the best for everyone, a diversity of options makes it likelier that each person will have at least one they can use. (also, the "families need cars" thing is an artifact of American city design, not a universal rule. Tens of millions of families live in New York, London, Paris and Tokyo, and the majority do not have cars.)
  - Pharmakon 8y ago
    Yeah, but those cities already exist, it’s not like American families can say “Honey, you know this is just an artifact of how our cities we’re designed, I’m selling the minivan!” Even if people would support a massive national infrastructure project to redesign cities and suburbs without the car in mind (and evidence is a majority won’t support that), it would still be the work of decades. For now American families really do need cars. As for places like London, I have some experience here and the underground is a mess, busses and bus replacement services abound (and are terrible). https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-44953440 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-44953440 That’s no joke, I’ve been close to fainting myself and it wasn’t even a hot day. Our politicians don’t care about us, and we’re basically unable to get and use a car unless we’re minted and willing to sit in traffic. If you want to hold us up as a model, learn about the downsides you get trapped with when you give up personal mobility. A lot of us would kill for a car to be practical in and around London, and envy Americans giant cars and roads.
chiefalchemist 8y ago
A couple things worth mentioning: - It's a self reported based survey. - Of all those surveyed, the results are those who responded. That could bias there results. - Replacing an Uber with a scooter doesn't necessarily mean cars usage has been reduced. Yes. This sounds promising. I hope so!! But let's get some hard data. Please?
blattimwind 8y ago
Notably older, two-stroke, scooters have extremely bad exhaust processing; a single two-stroke scooter emits somewhere between 200 to 700 times as much toxic stuff (in absolute terms!) as a car, including toxic compounds not even present in four-stroke exhaust (like benzene). So specifically those are absolutely not a better mode of transportation, let alone a less polluting one. Well that and they're loud as f---.
- DuskStar 8y ago
  Did you read the article? The kind of scooters being talked about are the standing, electric ones.
- walshemj 8y ago
  Those 2 stroke engines have been banned for years
  - blattimwind 8y ago
    For new scooters, yes. There's a huge number of them on the 2nd hand market.
    - walshemj 8y ago
      Not in the EU/USA apart from scooterists who lovingly restore them and do a few hundred miles a year.
      - blattimwind 8y ago
        These were available new until just a few years ago (2014ish). There are still many of them around, at least here in Germany.
listic 8y ago
What are dockless scooters?
oculusthrift 8y ago
really considering getting a scooter. mainly because it can fold up and go on bus or train with me. However main thing stopping me is that i would probably ride it instead of biking and biking gives me physical exercise whereas a scooter is just standing there
therealdrag0 8y ago
I bought an electric scooter (Zoom Stryder EX). It's really fun and works really well for my 4 mi commute. However, it's pretty hard to get into the habit of riding 23min to work when I can drive in 11min. Also I like to listen to podcasts in the car, and I don't feel comfortable doing that on a scooter (I feel like I need to monitor surroundings more.)
- BLKNSLVR 8y ago
  How common is an 11 minute drive to work? I'd guess there'd be a fair percentage of people that would get to work faster on a scooter than in their car.
partycoder 8y ago
The problem are 5 seat vehicles with an average of less than 2 people in them: waste of infrastructure, fuel, insurance, parking space, the environment, time... Which is good if you sell cars, insurance or fuel. If you can be even more wasteful with a SUV or a pickup truck even better. In this regard, Clive Sinclair was ahead of his time with the Sinclair C5, a personal electric vehicle created in 1985. I wonder what a reimagined version of this vehicle would look in 2018.
deleted 8y ago
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matthewmacleod 8y ago
I live in the UK where these devices are basically nonexistent due to not being legal on either roads or pavements. I hadn’t been to the US for a couple of years, so I hadn’t seen them in action, but I just visited San Diego last week and holy shit these things are everywhere, and an absolute menace. They were all over the sidewalks obstructing access; they were abandoned in the Tijuana River nature reserve; I had a number of close calls with careless riders, and talked to more than one person who’d been in an actual traffic collision with them. There’s nothing wrong with the concept, and it’s great to be able to move people to more sustainable methods of transport - but it definitely seems like some kind of regulation is needed for provision of safe docking areas, penalties for unsafe usage etc.
- tbihl 8y ago
  On the other hand, I live in San Diego, and cars act as menaces far more often than scooters when I'm around, probably at a 5:1 ratio. They do menace differently, but I do appreciate how much less dangerously the scooters do it. For example, when someone parks a scooter in a right of way, it's irksome. When someone parks an SUV in a right of way (too close to corner) it makes it dangerous to pull out of that intersection. When scooter riders act entitled to the sidewalk where I'm walking, I can easily bear off. When a driver acts entitled to the road where I'm biking, they often do it by riding only a few feet behind me while laying on the horn. The scooters seem like better neighbors to me.
throwaway83628 8y ago
So many people consider this a menace when in many ways it's closer to utopia. For decades cities have tried to get commuters to switch to bikes and public transportation, but nothing has really stuck in the states due to the convenience of cars. Now that it's happening, some people aren't happy. The situation is basically that 20% of the population of some cities has switched to an ideal form of transportation within months, and our infrastructure isn't built for it. Imagine the number of bike commuters increased 1000% in three months. That's the situation were in. The irony of people complaining about it isn't lost on me. People love bikes, and you never really hear complaints about people riding them just about anywhere. Bikers have been "violating" road and sidewalk laws for longer than cars have existed. These scooters are slower and smaller than bikes, and follow regulations better (reflectors, headlights, sometimes brake lights) . They're basically as carbon friendly as you can get for a motorized vehicle. And they're cheap and fairly durable. I bought one ~6 months ago and no problems for 500+ miles, it's practically taken my car off the road permenantly. We should be embracing these scooter with open arms. They're drastically reducing road congestion at least in my city. Even displacing rideshare to the point that I've had many drivers tell me that nobody gets picked up downtown anymore. But I guess the "get off my road/sidewalk" backlash is inevitable because people don't like change.
- romwell 8y ago
  I agree with the general vibe of your post, but have some objections as a commuter cyclist who tried one of the e-scooters (Lime) last week. >These scooters are slower and smaller than bikes, and follow regulations better These things aren't slower than bikes: mine clocked at over 15MPH (I checked with a sports tracker app). Yes, bikes can go faster. But commuter bikes usually don't (with traffic lights and obstacles peppered along your commute, you aren't riding at your top speed all the time). More importantly, these things accelerate faster than most casual cyclists. Now, these things might have brake lights, but they don't have turn signals. And they are way more unstable than bicycles; it's pretty hard to indicate turns with one hand off the handlebars (and both hands off handlebars = fall, unlike on a bike). Its small size is a disadvantage when it comes to visibility. And small wheels aren't good when it comes to potholes or curbs. And it's not obvious how to jump off that thing at speed (you can't let go of handlebars!). So, we have an unstable (compared to a bike) platform that can suddenly, unpredictably (to others) accelerate to 15MPH. Is this the future? Weather permitting, looks like it. But we definitely don't have infrastructure for it yet. We need roads for traffic like that which aren't for either cars or pedestrians. And narrow bike lanes which cars can get into simply won't do.
shiftoutbox 8y ago
This just in ... man bites dog. Sports and weather in 10.

195 points by prostoalex 8y ago

fosk 8y ago

One of the biggest complaint I have been hearing is that scooters take space on sidewalks, and we are so used to cars that we don’t see that cars not only also occupy way more real estate around the city (heck, think of dedicated parking lanes), but are even more deadly/dangerous. The elephant in the room are cars, not scooters. Then we have city administrations like in San Francisco - fighting useless battles against scooters instead of fixing real problems (homelessness, drug abuse, feces, and so on) that - unlike scooters - really are negatively affecting the life of us all.

eeeeeeeeeeeee 8y ago
I agree and disagree. Cars are in spaces engineered and designed for cars. Scooters have been tossed into a space made for slow human movement so they’re dangerous in operation and a nuisance at rest (I often see them parked in the middle of the sidewalk).
godzillabrennus 8y ago
Scooters = making money Homeless drug addicts = Losing money Hence why San Francisco did something about the scooters. So sad that it’s now becoming known globally as poop city.
- drb91 8y ago
  It’s easy to describe SF as far worse than a “poop city”, which is frankly overblown anyway. Maybe “the city where the rich are content to listen to people die on their doorstep”.
  - graeme 8y ago
    The SV people I follow on twitter don't seem too content. A bit part of the issue is lack of shelters, which aren't built to to limited funding or zoning restrictions, correct? SF doesn't actually have more homeless per capita, they just have more unsheltered people. And most come from the bay area. I don't know the exact cause of the problem, but if it was a problem money could solve on its own it would have been done already. The homelessness issue in SF is pereniall bad press for tech companies.
    - wilde 8y ago
      I’m not sure the companies see it that way. There’s money but it’s going to protect their tax breaks. https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/10/san-francisco-prop-c-homeless-ballot-measure/573358/ https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/10/san-francisco-prop-c-...
    - coldtea 8y ago
      >The SV people I follow on twitter don't seem too content. Actions show that, not lip service.
      - WillPostForFood 8y ago
        And talk about literally self selected.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - thatswrong0 8y ago
    It’s really not overblown. I live downtown.
    - drb91 8y ago
      Me too! But there are dogs and homeless people all over; poop management issues are really not unique to SF. I am in Germany at the moment and my poop-dodging skills are still in high use.
      - thatswrong0 8y ago
        Compared to other major American cities like Chicago or NYC though, it’s really really bad. It’s not even close. The number of times I’ve seen people actively shitting in front of me is way too damn high.
        drb91 8y ago
        Homeless? Sure, why not. Shitting in front of me? The world is ending.
- ido 8y ago
  Serious question from semi-frequent visitor to SF: I come every couple of years for a conference in downtown SF (Moscone Center) and always stay a whole week (so I can walk around town before/after the conference - usually going north and west towards the shore/golden gate bridge). I have not throughout the years noticed the supposed infestation of human faeces. I see a lot of homeless people, but not more than, say, Berlin. And I would say the parts of the city I walk through (and especially the parks!) are actually cleaner than Berlin (and Berlin is not that dirty). Am I just not staying/walking through the really bad parts? Or missing something else? Or does it just take longer exposure to notice?
  - ido 8y ago
    BTW this is the park that I was thinking about: https://goo.gl/maps/XDYaADoK7662 https://goo.gl/maps/XDYaADoK7662 And I would venture a guess that NO parks within anywhere remotely central locations in Berlin are as clean as this one - not just no used needles/broken bottles but not even "pedestrian" litter like thrown packaging or paper. I don't think you would even commonly find cigarette butts on the grass.
    - et-al 8y ago
      Yerba Buena Gardens is more of a corporate garden. Check out all the rules they have: https://ybgfestival.org/visitor-info/#rules https://ybgfestival.org/visitor-info/#rules Basically don't do anything but sit, eat your lunch, and look at your phone. The amount of staff people there during the daytime is unlike any other park in SF.
      - ido 8y ago
        Ok fair enough! I didn't know that, it was just the nearest park to Moscone so I assumed this is what public parks look like in downtown SF.
  - TACIXAT 8y ago
    I think you might just not be tuned into it. I've gone into the city 3 times since moving to San Jose and I've seen it every time. My girlfriend just did an interview in SF and the building she was interviewing at had feces smeared on the window.
- loceng 8y ago
  "Homeless drug addicts = Losing money" Imagine drug dealers actually cared about using some of their profits to take care of people, and hoping that they maintain the use of their drugs - helping the user become more productive, have more money, therefore be able to buy more drugs.. I suppose that's what legalizing drug use is all about, bringing it into the public eye, and allowing government and other health services more access to people to help them.
  - blfr 8y ago
    Turning drug addicts into serfs like in Interstate 60[1]. Perhaps it would be an improvement but doesn't seem like a desirable end goal. [1] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0165832/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0165832/
jackvalentine 8y ago
Right? Remove one car spot on each street for dedicated hire bike/scooter parking.
- agumonkey 8y ago
  how many scooters can one fit into a single parking spot 10 ? 20 ?
  - pavel_lishin 8y ago
    More than one.
  - lostapathy 8y ago
    Typical electric rental scootere? Like 150, with a simple rack you can stack them like cordwood.
loceng 8y ago
I wonder are the scooter users (or the companies renting them) going to pay for changing parking spaces into scooter parking spaces - or is general society going to fit that bill if it ever comes? Likewise, something I rarely seen is the indirect cost of the reduced safety/increased accidents/collisions related to scooter use brought up as part of the big picture; who's paying for that depends on each country's current state of healthcare.
- amanaplanacanal 8y ago
  Hmmm. Who paid for the car parking spaces? Probably the city. I'm not sure why this should be any different.
  - loceng 8y ago
    It's a question to bring up a conversation relating to costs. What if scooters are a fad? What if autonomous vehicles eventually make the cost of transport less for due to the added cost of having to pay people to pickup and move the scooters back to their high demand pickup locations? There's further analysis that could go into this - to then decide if or when it is a reasonable idea to cover the cost. Another consideration/question is that I believe in many places the tax on gas helps pay for infrastructure, and I don't know if electric vehicles have this tax to cover the same road-related costs.
e40 8y ago
One of the biggest complaint I have been hearing is that scooters take space on sidewalks As a 4+ mile/day pedestrian, the biggest complaint I have is many of them are ridden on the sidewalk. I've had too many close calls to count. I can't wait for the rainy season to start, so I won't need to worry about them anymore. In CA, there is a state law that prevents them from being ridden on the sidewalk, yet the police in my city won't enforce it. Mayor told them "hands off" and near as I can tell, the Mayor is working a deal with the scooter companies. Money over safety. Disgusting.
- therealdrag0 8y ago
  It's pretty scary to ride bike/scooter next to cars. Seems like a much better compromise to ride on the sidewalk when uncomfortable than the alternative. There just needs to be some sort of enforcement against ass-holery for those riding.
  - e40 8y ago
    I suspect you haven't spend time on the sidewalk with scooters whizzing around you. They are not safe, and cannot be (on the sidewalk). Pedestrians do not have lanes. When I step around the dog crap in front of me, I could be hit be a scooter operator not giving me enough space for my maneuver.
    - m4x 8y ago
      > They are not safe, and cannot be (on the sidewalk) This is a strange thing to say. It's clearly false, and the alternative (putting them on the road) is clearly less safe. I do think that the current model where Bird etc allow new users to jump on and go is problematic. It will probably work fine in the future when everybody knows how you are expected to ride them (i.e. full speed on the foot path is not cool), but at the moment things are a bit of a free for all. There's too much excitement when you get on for the first time, and no experienced riders to cool you down.
      - e40 8y ago
wpietri 8y ago
It is true that cars are currently worse offenders than scooters. But I commend San Francisco for catching this problem while it's still small. Private cars are at least used and placed by individuals. (As are private scooters, which nobody objects to.) Companies have no intrinsic right to convert public space to their place of business. Asking them to get a permit and limiting the amount of public space given for free to venture-funded companies seems fine by me. If you're serious about fighting the problem of excess space devoted to cars, then you'll surely be strongly for establishing the principle that the city should work to make public space for the public. I also strongly question your theory that the SF's transportation agency could or should be working on drug abuse and homelessness. I think San Francisco employs enough people that different departments can and should stick to what they're tasked with..

neverminder 8y ago

In the mean time electric scooters are illegal in UK because of some 200 year old law that talks about pigs and donkeys (http://uk.businessinsider.com/electric-scooters-illegal-1835-highways-act-2018-8 http://uk.businessinsider.com/electric-scooters-illegal-1835...). Even so I see an increasing number of people using them, because apparently cops just turn a blind eye, which does make sense, unlike this law.

buckhx 8y ago
They're technically illegal in NYC as well, but I bought one and it's been pretty great.
Symbiote 8y ago
This is strange behavior from a disruptive Silicon Valley startup. Why have they suicide to comply with the law this time? :) I support the law, most British towns don't have enough space for electric scooters and pedestrians to mix — recover some space, for example by changing a car lane into two cycle lanes, and then we can discuss where scooters belong. They're very rare in Copenhagen, but like longboards, rollerskates, and fast children on kick scooters, people use them in the cycle lane.
- jstanley 8y ago
  I think cycle lanes are more likely to be created after scooters take up too much space, not before.
- andygcook 8y ago
  The scooter companies have to comply because scooters are easy for city officials to ban. They just have Public Works confiscate them off the streets by looking at the app. That’s exactly what happened where I live in Cambridge, MA. Bird/Lime showed up and the city took all their scooters.
arthurfm 8y ago
The law regarding > 250w e-bikes is ridiculous too and badly needs updating. https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/advice/buying-and-riding-an-s-pedelec-in-the-uk-1637 https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/advice/buying-and-r...

adrianN 8y ago

Scooters and electric bicycles are the sensible form of electric mobility, but everybody talks about electric cars. Which makes sense, since billion dollar companies can make a lot more money selling cars than cheap scooters and bicycles. Small electric vehicles effectively solve the last mile problem of public transport.

KozmoNau7 8y ago
Electric cars are more impressive to the average person, especially the quiet smooth acceleration compared to ICE cars. And of course they have AC and comfy seats and all that, which appeals to people's comfortable laziness. But the real transport revolution is a combination of public transit and bikes/scooters for the so-called last mile.
clarry 8y ago
> Scooters and electric bicycles are the sensible form of electric mobility, but everybody talks about electric cars. Yes, because cars make sense when you've got more than your own arse to haul. Or when you don't want to end up in your destination dripping wet. Or when you want to sit in a warm cabin instead of fighting frostburns on a bicycle. Or when you don't want to be slipping on ice or getting stuck in snow..
- gregknicholson 8y ago
  You could get most of those things using an electric cargo bike with a canopy roof/windscreen. It wouldn't solve the Fred Flintstone problem — The Man must provide the propulsion for all of his family because Man — but that's a social hurdle, not a technical one.
  - clarry 8y ago
    I don't think it's roof or windscreen, it's both if you want to stay dry. That's a big increase in size, mass, and wind resistance (including susceptibility to side winds that can tip you over). That might have you consider having more than two wheels for stability, and windshield wipers, and a big battery to haul all that... at some point, we'll be wondering whether it's a car with pedals or a bike? https://www.daimler.com/company/tradition/company-history/1885-1886.html https://www.daimler.com/company/tradition/company-history/18...

edaemon 8y ago

As a resident of Portland (where the survey was conducted), the results match with my experience. Everyone seems to like them and they often replace short car trips. The only complaint I've heard with any frequency is that they're left in annoying places. Having used them a bit myself, there are four improvements I'd like to see: 1. Charging stations. While the current model where the scooters are collected and charged by people seems to get along, it's a bummer that they aren't easy to find at night. Most of them have been collected for charging. That means you can ride them somewhere and then not have one for the ride back, especially if you're in a group of people. It's also not that uncommon to be somewhere you'd expect to find one but with none nearby, or there are some but scattered over a few blocks. It would be nice if there were some stations scattered around the city where the scooters could be taken for charging but still be available for use, especially in high traffic areas and/or transit nodes like light rail stations (see #2). Even better if there's some incentive to drop them off there. That may help with the poor parking issue. 2. Integration with public transit. As it currently is, riding transit round-trip costs $5. If you use a scooter to get to public transit it costs $7 + $0.15/min of scooter riding. I'd guess that works out to around $15 total for most trips, which is plenty. To encourage their use as a supplement to public transit, it would be great if they were integrated with public transit; e.g. using public transit waives the $1 start fee, or using public transit waives the first 10-15 minutes of scooter cost, incentivized charging stations at public transit locations, etc. Portland has the Hop fastpass system which could work nicely for the first two. 3. Get rid of the helmet requirement. I don't hate it but I don't think it's effective or useful. 4. The lights need to be better. While it's not that difficult to see a scooter at night because they're all lit, the lights don't provide much visibility for the rider.

masklinn 8y ago
> 1. Charging stations. That has high up-front costs which I'm guessing is why these startups don't do it, plus it requires negotiating with the city, and assuming your customers are not selfish assholes (that's an assumption which is not going to hold). If you want charging stations, aside from the city negotiation and up-front costs you need to strongly incentivise their use and have permanent crew roaming around to move devices back to charging stations, and for high-traffic areas that's probably not going to be sufficient: your average e-k-scooter takes a couple hours to charge to 80%. Battery-swapping (gogoro & co) is a pretty good alternative there as your "charging station" becomes a large bank of batteries you can swap in/out, but it requires room for standardised user-swappable batteries, and an actual standard. Not really an option for e-k-scooters where the battery is underfoot and at least partially structural.

scoot_718 8y ago

A study in Portland? Good luck making conclusions from that data.

dumbo1 8y ago

Scooters have somewhat of a negative stigma in London [1], unless of course the scooter has a Deliveroo, JustEat or other courier on it. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jun/07/moped-enabled-crimes-london-police-called-to-430-a-week-in-past-year https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jun/07/moped-enable...

em500 8y ago
Your link is about mopeds, not scooters. (Confusingly, mopeds are often called scooters in non-English speaking countries.)
- TomMarius 8y ago
  Even more confusingly, "moped" often means a less powerful "scooter". In Czech, "moped" is 50ccm, scooter ("skůtr", pronounced the same) is up to 125ccm.
  - mcjiggerlog 8y ago
    That's generally what they mean in most countries, in my experience.
    - masklinn 8y ago
      Yep, except the US where scooter means kick-scooter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kick_scooter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kick_scooter
      - gregknicholson 8y ago
        That's what “scooter” means in the UK too.
        DonaldFisk 8y ago
        In the UK, a "scooter" can be either a kick scooter like the one shown in the article or here: https://www.microkickboard.com/childrens-scooters https://www.microkickboard.com/childrens-scooters , or a motor scooter, like the ones shown here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scooter_(motorcycle) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scooter_(motorcycle) , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mod_(subculture) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mod_(subculture) This is a moped: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped . It has bicycle pedals and a motor. You don't see them much nowadays. There have recently been many reports of "moped crime": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped_crime_in_London https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped_crime_in_London but this seems to be done on motor scooters rather than mopeds: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/terrifying-moment-west-end-motorbike-raiders-wielding-hammer-and-crowbar-target-pedestrians-a3531461.html https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/terrifying-moment-west...

monstrado 8y ago

As a resident of Raleigh, NC..I can say the feedback has been unexpectedly positive. Although, many people approve of the scooter situation, there has been a couple shortcomings: * Riding on sidewalks!! Not only does the app discourage you from doing it, but most scooters have wrtitten warnings suggesting not to do it. * Complete disregard for the rules of the road. I actually sympathize with people who ride scooters. It turns out, the majority are not cyclists, and so, when suddenly put people in charge of such devices they revert to what they know (and are comfortable with), sticking to the sidewalks. Furthermore, the few that do meander into the road do not know the actual rules of the road. That is, bike / cycling rules. Once the scooter hits the streets it should be treated as a bicycle. It should remain in the right side of the lane (assuming there's no bike lane), should produce all of the turn signals, and should definitely yield as any cyclist would. (I totally get that you might roll through a stop sign because theres nobody around, and there's no point in coming to a complete stop) Anyway, this is is my mini-rant from having these things dropped off in my town for the last few months.

lizknope 8y ago
I live in Raleigh too and work downtown. When walking on the sidewalks I've almost been run over by scooters about 8 times and been hit twice by jackets flying behind and to the side of the rider. I was okay but it did hurt. All of my coworkers hate the things and some of them are ready to ban them. For the first 2 months everyone I saw on a scooter was riding them on sidewalks. It seems to have gotten better in the last 2 months with scooter riders in the roads.
- ghaff 8y ago
  I hadn't been in Raleigh 4 hours last week and I almost got run down on one of the narrower sidewalks.

sonnyblarney 8y ago

What blows me away is that the US had not discovered 'regular scooter' culture. I mean the scooters like mopeds. They are common in almost every country outside North America! In Paris you see this beautiful girl, flowing dress, like out of a magazine - and she's on her moped! Out to dinner or whatever, it's normal. They are cheap and they take up the same space as a bicycle. If SF made a few 'moped / bicycle' only streets, like a grid in downtown, where traffic just flew by and was fast ... maybe you'd see tons of people make the switch.

dominotw 8y ago
1. Is it less safe? 2. Only works in cities with good weather all year long. I don't want to ride a moped in flowing dress in chicago winter. 3. Cities in US are spread out. I don't want to ride a moped on the highway to work or a friends house. 4. Top speed is very low. Safe top speed is even less.
- aeturnum 8y ago
  1. Than what? You'd rather be in a car than a moped if you crash, but creating an environment where crashes are less likely is most effective. 2. I understand why you say this, but it's obviously untrue. Google "Paris in winter" to see what I mean. 3. Mopeds only replace some forms of transport. Europe still has airports for instance - people to no moped across the atlantic.
  - dominotw 8y ago
    2. Cars are still main transport in Paris afaik. Paris is a bad example of ppl riding mopeds in winter. 3. I am not talking about transport between cities. Cities themselves are spread out. I cannot go from suburb of chicago to work downtown on a moped.
  - jahewson 8y ago
    Big difference between 3C and -8C not to mention the wind. My friend who lives in Chicago wears a ski mask to walk from the car. I don’t think you realise quite how cold much of the US gets.

stephengillie 8y ago

> The Portland Bureau of Transportation sent a questionnaire to 75,000 scooter users and received 4,500 responses. At least there's no question of the obvious bias. Of course scooter riders are going to report that they use scooters more than cars. How would the survey results be different if they surveyed car users too?

usaphp 8y ago

But scooters are only useful in good weather, I don’t think anyone would ride a scooter in winter in Chicago or New York. So I don’t really think they have a future of completely replacing cars throughout the year

pmorici 8y ago
I think you overestimate the extent to which it matters. People tend to stay home in bad weather car or not. I wouldn't take a scooter out on plowed streets but once the storm has passed and the streets have been plowed I don't see why you couldn't use a scooter in winter.
- vthallam 8y ago
  Because of the cold wind. Snow is one thing, but the cold wind blowing at you is something people won't be comfortable facing while on a scooter. But yeah, 40F-60F's is completely okay for a shorter scooter rides I guess.
  - mitchty 8y ago
    I've gone for runs in -30 weather, its not that bad if you cover up your skin. 40-60F is short sleeve/shorts weather around here for me. Around freezing is when it starts getting fun to run. Yes I'm an abberation but I didn't start out this way.
    - usaphp 8y ago
      You do realize that 99% of people feel cold in 40F. Think about the majority of population. Most of them don’t run and just want to do their business by using scooter
      - mitchty 8y ago
        > You do realize that 99% of people feel cold in 40F. Yes, I addressed that in my last sentence. You presume I don't feel the cold, I do, I've just learnt how to tolerate it. Buddhist monks can dry wet towels in -40 weather. The human body is rather more tolerant of cold than you might think. Also, source on 99%?

dpflan 8y ago

On the HN front page today along with this post is this one: - Study Links Uber and Lyft to Increase in U.S. Traffic Deaths - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18318609 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18318609 I am enjoying watching the ecosystem of personal transport shift and take affect on society. I find it fascinating to see the positives and negatives become highlighted as people use the services more, creating more scenarios and observations. What are others' experiences and observations of the introduction of these transportation networks and what the future of, let's focus, city / densely populated areas? Does the future really look like: a gradient of number of wheels and carry-capacity: from light-weight electric scooters on demand to electric cars to freight-trucks on demand? What is needed to sustain and to drive this change in transportation culture towards an efficient and safer (reduced transportation related fatalities, reduced carbon emissions, reduced time in long commutes)? My perspective is certainly influenced by my experiences living in cities the United States.

Pharmakon 8y ago
If current vehicle sales are an indicator, the future is still a lot of trucks and SUVs. Most Americans seem more concerned with comfort, lots of space, and the ability to survive a collision with another vehicle over changing society. Maybe it looks different in the Silicon Valley bubble, but outside of that it’s trucks, SUVs and crossovers.
- dpflan 8y ago
  That’s a good point. I would like to see those numbers myself, seems useful to understand the different bubbles that exist. What do you think of European nations imposing deadlines for the final sales of fossil-fueled automobiles?
  - Pharmakon 8y ago
    I think it’s nice in theory, but the dates proposed are beyond the likely political careers of the people proposing them which makes me suspicious. It would also be very easy to keep pushing back the deadline. It’s the kind of policy which costs nothing today, and racks up feel-good points for more than a decade without actually making a plan or doing anything like investing in that future.

kumarvvr 8y ago

I would kill for a two person electric vehicle with a dome to protect the occupants from wind, dust and rain. I don't get why there are not such transport systems. It would be a great cross between a car and a motorcycle.

rocky1138 8y ago
I want this, too. It seems there have been a few companies to do it, but never cheaply. Something more than $1000? Forget it. Just give me a simple plexiglass dome and be done with it.
pbhjpbhj 8y ago
They did those in the 70s; not sure if any were electric though. There's Microlino now though https://www.treehugger.com/cars/micro-cars-are-back-electric-microlino.html https://www.treehugger.com/cars/micro-cars-are-back-electric...
nickhalfasleep 8y ago
https://www.zelectricvehicle.com/t3-1-micro-enclosed-trike https://www.zelectricvehicle.com/t3-1-micro-enclosed-trike
_ph_ 8y ago
The Renault Twizy would fit your description.
deleted 8y ago
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dsfyu404ed 8y ago
They do. It's called a golf cart with doors.

leowoo91 8y ago

So it is now Uber vs Tesla vs Scooters.

patcon 8y ago

EDIT: redacted

macintux 8y ago
I’d argue encouraging bikes to be on the sidewalk are a negative trend. Hopefully that’s not a long-term change.

nickhalfasleep 8y ago

Scooters are great for taking cars of single, able bodied individuals; who are usually the most numerous in dense city centers. For people with kids, elderly, the infirm, a four wheeled vehicle with cargo space is still desired.

deleted 8y ago
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devdas 8y ago
Bicycles, buses, trams and light rail. All useful alternatives.
apsec112 8y ago
A lot of people can't safely own and operate a car, either, whether due to poverty, age, or disability. While no transportation mode is the best for everyone, a diversity of options makes it likelier that each person will have at least one they can use. (also, the "families need cars" thing is an artifact of American city design, not a universal rule. Tens of millions of families live in New York, London, Paris and Tokyo, and the majority do not have cars.)
- Pharmakon 8y ago
  Yeah, but those cities already exist, it’s not like American families can say “Honey, you know this is just an artifact of how our cities we’re designed, I’m selling the minivan!” Even if people would support a massive national infrastructure project to redesign cities and suburbs without the car in mind (and evidence is a majority won’t support that), it would still be the work of decades. For now American families really do need cars. As for places like London, I have some experience here and the underground is a mess, busses and bus replacement services abound (and are terrible). https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-44953440 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-44953440 That’s no joke, I’ve been close to fainting myself and it wasn’t even a hot day. Our politicians don’t care about us, and we’re basically unable to get and use a car unless we’re minted and willing to sit in traffic. If you want to hold us up as a model, learn about the downsides you get trapped with when you give up personal mobility. A lot of us would kill for a car to be practical in and around London, and envy Americans giant cars and roads.

chiefalchemist 8y ago

A couple things worth mentioning: - It's a self reported based survey. - Of all those surveyed, the results are those who responded. That could bias there results. - Replacing an Uber with a scooter doesn't necessarily mean cars usage has been reduced. Yes. This sounds promising. I hope so!! But let's get some hard data. Please?

blattimwind 8y ago

Notably older, two-stroke, scooters have extremely bad exhaust processing; a single two-stroke scooter emits somewhere between 200 to 700 times as much toxic stuff (in absolute terms!) as a car, including toxic compounds not even present in four-stroke exhaust (like benzene). So specifically those are absolutely not a better mode of transportation, let alone a less polluting one. Well that and they're loud as f---.

DuskStar 8y ago
Did you read the article? The kind of scooters being talked about are the standing, electric ones.
walshemj 8y ago
Those 2 stroke engines have been banned for years
- blattimwind 8y ago
  For new scooters, yes. There's a huge number of them on the 2nd hand market.
  - walshemj 8y ago
    Not in the EU/USA apart from scooterists who lovingly restore them and do a few hundred miles a year.
    - blattimwind 8y ago
      These were available new until just a few years ago (2014ish). There are still many of them around, at least here in Germany.

listic 8y ago

What are dockless scooters?

oculusthrift 8y ago

really considering getting a scooter. mainly because it can fold up and go on bus or train with me. However main thing stopping me is that i would probably ride it instead of biking and biking gives me physical exercise whereas a scooter is just standing there

therealdrag0 8y ago

I bought an electric scooter (Zoom Stryder EX). It's really fun and works really well for my 4 mi commute. However, it's pretty hard to get into the habit of riding 23min to work when I can drive in 11min. Also I like to listen to podcasts in the car, and I don't feel comfortable doing that on a scooter (I feel like I need to monitor surroundings more.)

BLKNSLVR 8y ago
How common is an 11 minute drive to work? I'd guess there'd be a fair percentage of people that would get to work faster on a scooter than in their car.

partycoder 8y ago

The problem are 5 seat vehicles with an average of less than 2 people in them: waste of infrastructure, fuel, insurance, parking space, the environment, time... Which is good if you sell cars, insurance or fuel. If you can be even more wasteful with a SUV or a pickup truck even better. In this regard, Clive Sinclair was ahead of his time with the Sinclair C5, a personal electric vehicle created in 1985. I wonder what a reimagined version of this vehicle would look in 2018.

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matthewmacleod 8y ago

I live in the UK where these devices are basically nonexistent due to not being legal on either roads or pavements. I hadn’t been to the US for a couple of years, so I hadn’t seen them in action, but I just visited San Diego last week and holy shit these things are everywhere, and an absolute menace. They were all over the sidewalks obstructing access; they were abandoned in the Tijuana River nature reserve; I had a number of close calls with careless riders, and talked to more than one person who’d been in an actual traffic collision with them. There’s nothing wrong with the concept, and it’s great to be able to move people to more sustainable methods of transport - but it definitely seems like some kind of regulation is needed for provision of safe docking areas, penalties for unsafe usage etc.

tbihl 8y ago
On the other hand, I live in San Diego, and cars act as menaces far more often than scooters when I'm around, probably at a 5:1 ratio. They do menace differently, but I do appreciate how much less dangerously the scooters do it. For example, when someone parks a scooter in a right of way, it's irksome. When someone parks an SUV in a right of way (too close to corner) it makes it dangerous to pull out of that intersection. When scooter riders act entitled to the sidewalk where I'm walking, I can easily bear off. When a driver acts entitled to the road where I'm biking, they often do it by riding only a few feet behind me while laying on the horn. The scooters seem like better neighbors to me.

throwaway83628 8y ago

So many people consider this a menace when in many ways it's closer to utopia. For decades cities have tried to get commuters to switch to bikes and public transportation, but nothing has really stuck in the states due to the convenience of cars. Now that it's happening, some people aren't happy. The situation is basically that 20% of the population of some cities has switched to an ideal form of transportation within months, and our infrastructure isn't built for it. Imagine the number of bike commuters increased 1000% in three months. That's the situation were in. The irony of people complaining about it isn't lost on me. People love bikes, and you never really hear complaints about people riding them just about anywhere. Bikers have been "violating" road and sidewalk laws for longer than cars have existed. These scooters are slower and smaller than bikes, and follow regulations better (reflectors, headlights, sometimes brake lights) . They're basically as carbon friendly as you can get for a motorized vehicle. And they're cheap and fairly durable. I bought one ~6 months ago and no problems for 500+ miles, it's practically taken my car off the road permenantly. We should be embracing these scooter with open arms. They're drastically reducing road congestion at least in my city. Even displacing rideshare to the point that I've had many drivers tell me that nobody gets picked up downtown anymore. But I guess the "get off my road/sidewalk" backlash is inevitable because people don't like change.

romwell 8y ago
I agree with the general vibe of your post, but have some objections as a commuter cyclist who tried one of the e-scooters (Lime) last week. >These scooters are slower and smaller than bikes, and follow regulations better These things aren't slower than bikes: mine clocked at over 15MPH (I checked with a sports tracker app). Yes, bikes can go faster. But commuter bikes usually don't (with traffic lights and obstacles peppered along your commute, you aren't riding at your top speed all the time). More importantly, these things accelerate faster than most casual cyclists. Now, these things might have brake lights, but they don't have turn signals. And they are way more unstable than bicycles; it's pretty hard to indicate turns with one hand off the handlebars (and both hands off handlebars = fall, unlike on a bike). Its small size is a disadvantage when it comes to visibility. And small wheels aren't good when it comes to potholes or curbs. And it's not obvious how to jump off that thing at speed (you can't let go of handlebars!). So, we have an unstable (compared to a bike) platform that can suddenly, unpredictably (to others) accelerate to 15MPH. Is this the future? Weather permitting, looks like it. But we definitely don't have infrastructure for it yet. We need roads for traffic like that which aren't for either cars or pedestrians. And narrow bike lanes which cars can get into simply won't do.

shiftoutbox 8y ago

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