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Study Links Uber and Lyft to Increase in U.S. Traffic Deaths
- drb91 8y agoThis can’t be a surprise to anyone. I frequently have a driver who is obviously different than the one pictured in the app. Some of the drivers I get have been in the country for a matter of weeks or even days, leaving me to wonder how Lyft or Uber verified their ability to drive to sufficient standards—I’m guessing they do virtually nothing beyond confirming the name matches a valid driver’s license. Talk about an industry that needs regulation!
- Symbiote 8y agoWhen the driver doesn't match the picture in the app, Uber/Lyft haven't done any verification.
- kerng 8y agoNo, just someone else might be driving. They could do face recognition when logging into the driver app or something to authenticate the correct driver is driving or give the option to customers to confirm yes/no in the app when getting in the car.
- drb91 8y agoThey could, but have zero incentive to. Also, people just might not care, possibly endangering others. Don’t leave it up to the riders.
- actuator 8y agoThey actually give the option and I think people should use it. https://i.imgur.com/A7Xs29E.png https://i.imgur.com/A7Xs29E.png
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- drb91 8y agoWhy bother? If it happened once it will happen again. You might as well throw a tissue at the sky in an attempt to stop the rain. They just don’t have any reason to care who picks you up so long as they get your money.
- crazygringo 8y agoOf course they have a reason to care -- the worse quality customers receive, the more they'll defect to a competing service with higher quality. All of capitalism is based on companies competing for customers by providing better products. The entire reason Uber exists is to provide a better product that taxis or Lyft. They have every reason to care, and there are tons of cases of drivers being banned from Uber because of repeated complaints. I believe your pessimism here is totally unfounded.
- drb91 8y ago> All of capitalism is based on companies competing for customers by providing better products. Not true at all. Lyft and uber are virtually identical; there is no consumer choice. Companies have an incentive only to provide a product that is not worse than their competitor, but the market is still anti-labor and anti-consumer.
- kerng 8y agoIf its reported multiple times they can take action. If not, well, its like voting. If you dont, you are supporting whatever the system is in the end. And they care because if there are safety issues it will hit the bottom line eventually.
- drb91 8y ago> And they care because if there are safety issues it will hit the bottom line eventually. Long after people die, I’m guessing.
- rasteau 8y ago> I frequently have a driver who is obviously different than the one pictured in the app. Do you continue the ride? Do you inform the company? > Talk about an industry that needs regulation! I infer that you use Uber/Lyft/etc despite your concerns. Why not instead vote with your wallet, and use one of those nice, government-regulated taxicabs?
- drb91 8y agoI don’t know what my personal actions have to do with what I’ve observed—smells like ad hominem.
- jack9 8y agoIt sounds like you are an atypical user or distorting facts. No one I know (including ppl who have driven for these services) has ever experienced any of the problems you describe. I live in large metropolitan areas in the west coast.
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- prepend 8y agoThat’s pretty easy to fix directly by customers. If the driver doesn’t match the photo, then rate the ride 1 star and explain why. I’ve done this a few times and gotten a personalized response from Uber every time.
- drb91 8y agoIt’s not the rider’s problem.
- crazygringo 8y agoIf a driver is committing fraud against the company by allowing someone else to drive in their place that day, who else do you think is going to report it? It's no different from checking your dozen eggs at the supermarket to make sure none are broken before buying. Whenever you purchase any service or good, any responsible consumer verifies that what was delivered is what they ordered, and raises the issue with the company if not.
- drb91 8y agoUsers have no incentive to report. Reporting would not prevent this from happening again, even the next ride.
- seattle_spring 8y ago> I frequently have a driver who is obviously different than the one pictured in the app Really? I've taken more than 1000 rides on both platforms combined and this has not happened to me once. > Some of the drivers I get have been in the country for a matter of weeks or even days How exactly are you inferring this information? I've never had a driver tell me this. Some of them have thick accents, sure, but so do some of my engineering co-workers who have been in the country for years.
- drb91 8y ago> How exactly are you inferring this information? I ask them how long they’ve been in the area; I’m a friendly guy, and people are surprisingly forthright.
- awakeasleep 8y agoInteresting how the Lyft spokesperson doesnt directly address the study’s claims. Instead they make other, unrelated claims about drunk driving safety increases.
- creato 8y agoI've had a lot of conversations with drivers that make me cringe. I've had a few tell me about how they've been away from home driving for 24-48 hours, sleeping in the car for a few hours at a time here and there. This article doesn't seem to mention this as a factor but I wouldn't be surprised if Uber/Lyft driver fatigue explains part of this study's findings. My understanding is that the taxi medallion system originally came to be because there was too much competition in the taxi business, leading to corners being cut (e.g. maintenance) and overcrowding by taxis in certain places. Maybe we're learning this lesson again? This level of competition has brought a lot of convenience and comfort improvements over taxis. But from a big picture point of view, I'm not sure that this level of competition is a good thing. I almost wish Uber/Lyft were more expensive (and that money went to drivers). I'd use them less, but I'd be happier about using it when I did.
- aeternus 8y agoThe rating system seems like a much better answer than the Medallion system. Every passenger (should be) effectively voting on the safety of the driver. No turn signals or engine light on? Subtract a few stars. If they violate a traffic law, 1 star and report for safety violation.
- maccam94 8y agoMy impression is that the maintenance burden gets pushed onto drivers and they may not fully understand how to factor that cost into their income. However, there are new incentives to keep the cars well maintained, such as the ability of riders to rate the experience and leave comments, as well as the fact that these cars are also the driver's personal transportation. The dynamic pricing and monitoring of supply and demand help avoid overcompetition, but that assumes that drivers really won't drive if they are losing money. I wonder if there's app functionality for the driver to plug in their fuel economy/depreciation to show what their actual profit is...
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- majos 8y ago
- fyfy18 8y agoAdd to this Uber Eats and Deliveroo. Here in London they are very popular, and most drivers use mopeds, which require very little training to get a license. I regularly see them driving through red lights, speeding, driving dangerously in general, and parking where they shouldn't.
- lozenge 8y agoSpecifically they have a provisional license which means they took a 1 day course. They haven't passed their full driving test and still have L plates on their motorcycle. It's insane they are allowed to work based on a skill they officially don't have.
- DanBC 8y agoI'm amazed they can afford the insurance.
- codyb 8y agoThey probably aren't. Aren't most Lyft and Uber drivers using non commercial insurance policies as well? What are your personal protections in an instance where you're a passenger in a commercial vehicle insured only for personal purposes in an accident where your driver's at fault? Would your medical bills be paid for? It's not something I'd considered before but seems concerning.
- rahimnathwani 8y agoIn China, approximately 100% of food delivery folks use electric mopeds, which (at least in Beijing) don't require a licence and don't require registration (although the latter is due to change soon). They don't generally speed, and their adherence to other traffic rules, courteous parking etc. are indistinguishable from other vehicle users.
- VoidWhisperer 8y agoThat is China in specific, which is not representative of the larger world in general, where people on mopeds for these apps are generally significantly less adherent to traffic laws.
- jonchang 8y agoThere's an interesting link to an analysis an (unaffiliated?) economist that suggests the study's methodology is flawed, in that it doesn't properly account for the simultaneous drop in gasoline prices (known to increase driving and therefore traffic deaths) as well as being unable to explain rises in death rates in both urban and rural areas (because Uber/Lyft are primarily urban) http://cityobservatory.org/unsafe-uber-lethal-lyft-were-skeptical/ http://cityobservatory.org/unsafe-uber-lethal-lyft-were-skep...
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- antidesitter 8y agoEvery time you see a claim like “study links X to Y” or “X is correlated with Y”, you should always always always remember that there are three possibilities: X causes Y, Y causes X, or some third factor Z causes both X and Y. I can’t understate the importance of thinking this way and not jumping to unwarranted conclusions. You should also exercise your imagination by trying to imagine why each of these three possibilities might hold. Edit: There's also the possibility of spurious correlations, as mentioned in the comments below.
- devonkim 8y agoI try to make this healthy skepticism / criticism a bit more succinct for laymen by linking to spurious correlations http://tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations http://tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations
- abathur 8y agoI see a lot of evidence that "thinking right" is astoundingly hard. But I don't see very many statements from real humans of any field, background, or level of intelligence/education that acknowledge the enormity of the challenge. I'm not sure it's "possible", but I think we're profoundly suffering for the lack of an open-ended, recursive knowledge-production process more efficient than what we've left up to the emergent behavior of a chaotic system.
- Neil44 8y agoThe world is a big complicated place and it seems to me very hard to lay a small shift in that metric on a specific companies doorstep. It's one of those extrordinary claims / extrordinary proof things, and as such I find it unproven.
- bougiefever 8y agoI would like to know how they eliminated confounding. Was there an increase in other risky behaviors at the same time, like texting while driving? How many of the deaths caused by accidents involved Uber or Lyft drivers? Maybe it's click-baity.
- rticesterp 8y agoThere’s also been an increase in smart phone use during the same period. I cringe at the number of drivers I see that are fully engaged in their phones while driving. It’s too bad that distracted driving has virtually cancelled out any gains in safety that modern technology has provided (auto breaking, blind spot assist, etc,) during the same time period.
- m0dest 8y agoVMT = Vehicle Miles Traveled The article makes extensive use of this acronym without defining it.
- elvirs 8y agoUber and Lyft definitely put more shitty drivers out on the road constantly cruising looking to pickup or drop off their riders in most not suitable places with 0 regards to traffic, especially in NYC and suburbs. Uber and Lyft pays so little that most of their drivers are definitely not qualified to drive professionally but are doing it because they can't get any other job. I forgot to mention that these drivers work for multiple ride-sharing companies (at least 2 but sometimes up to 4 in NYC) and have multiple smartphones docked to their dashboard constantly distracting them.
- ralmidani 8y agoSo is it the fault of Uber and Lift that the gig economy has become a thing? I have a friend who fled Assad's genocide in Syria, has an accounting degree, and is currently looking for a job. Guess what he's doing in the meantime...
- elvirs 8y agooh he fled Assad, that makes it okay for him to offer professional driver services in a country where he just arrived with 0 assessment of his driving skills. and in the meantime if he ends up causing an accident or two by putting everyone's life in danger its okay because, remember, he fled Assad.
- ralmidani 8y agoWho said he just arrived? Assad has been murdering people for almost 8 years. A driver's license may not be a good indicator of driving skills, but it's more than "0 assessment".
- _justpassingby_ 8y agoJust what was the point of giving his backstory?
- ralmidani 8y ago
- heydenberk 8y agoAnecdotally, as a cyclist, it sure feels like Uber drivers are trying to kill me!
- bgutierrez 8y agoShouldn't it be easy to see how many fatal accidents there were during rides? Isn't there some kind of tracking of this by Lyft and Uber?
- EvilTerran 8y agoThey almost certainly track accident data for internal use, but I can't imagine they'd ever want to share it.
- pmcollins 8y agoIn my state, the phenomenon of attempting to drive while looking at and manipulating one's phone is absolutely epidemic. When a light turns green, the cars in front often don't move and the cars behind them often don't honk because they're engaged with their smartphones too. It's particularly disturbing when you're on a 50mph road with one lane in each direction and you pass a car by a few feet going the other way at a closing speed of 100mph and all you see is the other driver's eyelids and the top of their head. The article mentions a 3% increase in deaths since 2011 despite cars getting safer, but 2011 correlates to the start of the total ubiquity of the smartphone as well. On the other hand, I've had some very sketchy Uber/Lyft rides involving extremely late lane changes, almost missing turns/offramps and trying to dive in at the last second. The combination of often younger people who might end up driving for Uber/Lyft, often driving unfamiliar routes, relying on the instructions provided by a phone attached four feet away, while engaged in a conversation with passengers, is probably generally not as safe as you driving yourself along a familiar route. But it would be quite a feat of analysis if anybody were able to disentangle the effect of Uber/Lyft from other changes since 2011.
- sitkack 8y agoUber and Lyft also siphon off ridership from mass transit where the fatalities are way lower.
- jetcata 8y agoI no longer use Uber or Lyft because I’ve had more rides with drivers who I would consider to be a “dangerous driver” than those I consider safe. Many times the driver is in too big a rush to get their next fare, and they drive erratically and over the speed limit whilst using their phone. I even had a driver whose breath smelt like he’d been drinking. I just don’t feel safe, and I don’t think these companies regulate or check how safe their drivers are driving. I wonder whether there could be something in their driver app that monitors the speed or safety of the driver when they have a passenger in the car. I know that some insurance companies have apps like these.
- drb91 8y agoOn the flip side of the DUI experience (which I believe); you can easily ruin a driver’s source of income by simply accusing them of drunk driving. Best case scenario they have a dashcam and can demonstrate their sobriety with evidence, but worse case they’re deprived of their income and forced through a kafkaesque process to beg for their job back. I’ve heard this experience from half a dozen different drivers.
- stephen_g 8y agoI've not ever used Uber (Lyft isn't in my country I don't think) but I have noticed a surprisingly high number of really bad drivers with Uber stickers on their cars... I feel like the general standard of driving seems to have seriously decreased since I started seeing the stickers a year or so ago (before that Uber was technically illegal, so while it did operate, drivers didn't advertise so much).
- PopeDotNinja 8y agoI wonder how many ridesharing deaths are related passengers not wearing seatbelts. I certainly didn't wear seatbelts when I first got in Lyft and Uber rides. I think was that because I never got into the habit of wearing seatbelts in taxis for some reason.
- icotyl 8y agoWhen I'm crossing a street and a car flies through the intersection nearly hitting me, it's usually an Uber driver. Were taxi drivers so desperate to speed through cities and reach their next fare as quickly as possible?
- aeternus 8y agoYes, Taxi drivers were much worse about this. This is a gross generalization but based on my experience Taxi drivers drive much more aggressively and have more disregard for traffic laws, but are also generally more skilled.
- Tiktaalik 8y agoUnsurprising as we know that Lyft and Uber increase the amount of cars on the road, and cars are dangerous and drivers kill people all the time. We've known this for a century and yet we still do nothing about it. The only way to make our cities safer is to reduce the amount of cars on the road by limiting road expansion and creating transportation alternatives to the car.