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The Water Abundance XPrize winner makes water from air

122 points by sandyshankar 8y ago

CompelTechnic 8y ago
Does anyone have any details about their actual technical implementation? I'm sure it is interesting. I imagine it doesn't look too similar to a Tatooine moisture farm.
- azernik 8y ago
  It looks like a construction-site power generator - big ol' metal cube. http://www.skysource.org/products/ http://www.skysource.org/products/ Technical implementation is claimed to be 'adiabatic distillation' - not sure exactly what that means.
  - explorigin 8y ago
    It means that it uses refrigeration to make it rain (maintain a dewpoint temperature) in a small chamber instead of just grabbing the condensation dripping off the refrigeration coils.
- corodra 8y ago
  Just google “water from thin air”. This has been done quite often the past 15 years. It’s an overpriced dehumidifier that is working outdoors. 1. They’re in Hawaii. It’s a little humid there. So... yea. Dehumidifiers will collect quite a bit of water in a water abundant area. 2. The places that need clean water typically have low humidity as well. To pull water from air, there needs to be water in it. Think of this as all those folks that claim they can run their car on water as a fuel. The thing they fail to mention was they were using a battery to split out the hydrogen from the water to use that as fuel. Which is not more efficient than just using the straight up battery. This is a publicity stunt scam. A real shame too. That money would have been better spent on education or better water infrastructure in places of need.
  - JackFr 8y ago
    > They’re in Hawaii. So what you're saying is that they're efficient on an island miles from the the rainiest spot on the planet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Waialeale#Climate_and_Rainfall_Statistics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Waialeale#Climate_and_Ra...
    - corodra 8y ago
      You’d figure they would test something like this for efficiency in the desert. Just to be practical.
  - aliswe 8y ago
    https://m.gulfnews.com/news/uae/weather/humidity-in-uae-reaches-100-hotter-days-to-follow-1.2265830 https://m.gulfnews.com/news/uae/weather/humidity-in-uae-reac...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
post_break 8y ago
Is this another one of those dehumidifier machines that promises it can deliver gallons when using a tarp, rope, and a bucket to catch rain water collects more water per year?
- azernik 8y ago
  RTFA, especially before snarky dismissals: "meeting the competition parameters of extracting a minimum of 2,000 liters of water per day from the atmosphere using 100 percent renewable energy, at a cost of no more than two cents per liter"
  - post_break 8y ago
    I read the article. Do you know how many of these things promise gallons and deliver drops? Pardon me for being pessimistic about it.
    - azernik 8y ago
      They have commercial models for sale that produce half the competition amounts, and have pretty detailed specs online: http://www.skysource.org/products/ http://www.skysource.org/products/
      - Yver 8y ago
        Those specs mention producing half the competition's amount in optimal conditions, which I assume means 99% humidity. They don't actually say at what humidity level and temperature their product can deliver that much. They don't give any specific numbers at any specific temperature, only the machine's operating conditions and the upper limit on what it can produce.
        azernik 8y ago
        I assume they just put together an array of two or three of their high-capacity converters for the competition.
nyrulez 8y ago
I'm a bit irked that a technology of this significance has no videos or demos or actual use cases, just a PR blurb. Is it confidentiality, or is it too early stage? Otherwise X Prize becomes another congratulatory event. This feeling seems to run through the entire site as I click around.
- azernik 8y ago
  The company itself has a website at http://www.skysource.org/ http://www.skysource.org/
  - nyrulez 8y ago
    That's cool. I hope it takes off. Water shortage is a very serious issue in Asia affecting millions and this solution seems too good to be true, so it's exciting. I wonder what the costs are like and can I buy one and donate them to communities in Asia?
  - metaphor 8y ago
    ...which tells us nothing of their XPrize submission.
    - azernik 8y ago
      It's probably 2-4 of their higher-capacity models put together.
rdiddly 8y ago
Remove moisture from the air on any significant scale, and you're depriving someone else of rain, downwind. It's another finite resource. Unforeseen consequences abound. You know, there are places where water falls out of the air on its own, and if you don't spoil the hell out of the landscape you can even drink it. Give it a rest, humans.
- rdiddly 8y ago
  Oh so we really believe the solution to all problems, including those directly caused by human technology, is going to end up being more technology? That the solution to human-caused complexity is more complexity? (With no diminishment whatsoever in returns?) That the solution to human actions that change the climate is more human changes to the climate? Because Progress? No skepticism at all huh? Nobody subscribes to any quaint notions anymore such as "Extracting water from air is known as rain, and it's free," or "There are already too many humans, living in too many inhospitable places, enabled by technology," or even something as simple as "Hey I can keep two contradictory ideas in my head at the same time like 'I work on technology' yet 'Technology always has a downside'?" There's an old apocryphal saying along the lines of (please say this in the stereotyped voice of Tonto or any Native American portrayed by Hollywood): Red man build small fire, keep warm. White man build big fire, keep warm by chopping wood. Just thought I'd throw that in, since it's roughly analogous. The human population needs to be cut back to within a sensible ecological planetary carrying-capacity, not be further propped up by ever-more exotic tech. The cutback will happen regardless, when these technologies inevitably fail or lead to worse problems that feed back on each other. But it's still frustrating that everybody wants to just rush headlong into the brick wall instead of hitting the brakes, and that anybody who has any foresight is automatically some Luddite or old-timer. Like people fresh-out-the-womb are the smartest ones, and the unquestioning belief in tech is anything but gullibility! Give me your money then!
ortusdux 8y ago
Here is the website for one of the winners: http://www.skysource.org/ http://www.skysource.org/ From what I can glean online, the 150 gal/day unit costs $18k usd + $150-$300 in electricity a month if run 24/7 at $0.10Kwh. Ignoring electrical costs, it would take 1581 days to reach $0.02/liter. In that time you would use up $7.5-15k in electricity. The best estimate I could find is that the average US household uses 240 gal a day. A friend of mine had to drill a 980 ft well through bedrock. A well this deep requires a much stronger pump and more electricity. They are on their 2nd pump. I should ask them what that all cost.
- maxmcd 8y ago
  I think the competition guidelines are around manufacturing cost, not retail cost: > The cost per liter of water extraction will also be calculated based on a pro forma Bill of Materials and estimated NRE and tooling costs. A more detailed description of this calculation is provided in the Rules and Regulations. The Affordability Index must be less than $0.02 (two cents). No prize will be awarded to a Team that does not meet that criterion. https://assets-us-01.kc-usercontent.com/5cb25086-82d2-4c89-94f0-8450813a0fd3/d0566aab-703f-46e0-9571-3c379ea60309/water_abundance_xprize_guidelines_v3_2017-02-28.pdf https://assets-us-01.kc-usercontent.com/5cb25086-82d2-4c89-9...
- black6 8y ago
  All the pictures show the units operating in lush, green environments, which would indicate high(er) humidity where moisture extraction from the air is trivial. I'd like to see some action shots from the middle of the Atacama or Taklamakan.
- jandrese 8y ago
  I'm going to guess that if you need to spend $18k on equipment to get your water then you probably aren't going to blow through 240 gallons a day. 150 gallons could be quite a lot of fresh water for a small remote village that otherwise lacks a good fresh water source. Useful for drinking and cooking, but not used for bathing or irrigation. I assume the system could be powered by a reasonably sized solar array. On the other hand, given the cost of this setup it would probably be a lot easier and cheaper to install water filters.
beauzero 8y ago
Good video on how we see an Adiabatic Cooling process drop moisture in nature. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH_M4jItiKw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH_M4jItiKw edit: I personally didn't know what "adiabatic" meant.
travisoneill1 8y ago
2 cents a liter is not close to feasible for any sort of agricultural or industrial use and is an order of magnitude more expensive than residential tap water. Seems like cool tech, but I can't see how this is a solution to any type of water shortage.
- jpm_sd 8y ago
  I believe the general idea is to provide drinking water where there is no pre-existing "residential tap water" infrastructure.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- ed_balls 8y ago
  Another problem is that the water doesn't taste great.
  - polynomial 8y ago
    Source?
    - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
      Well, it's essentially producing distilled water. Many people find that somewhat distateful.
    - glibgil 8y ago
      The water is pulled from the air
    - cellularmitosis 8y ago
      Perhaps he's referring to the notion that, in general, the taste of distilled water differs from mineral water? Also, I was about to post a concern about distilled water possibly leaching nutrients from the body, but a quick google reveals the opposite may be true: https://www.nutriteam.com/distilledleach/ https://www.nutriteam.com/distilledleach/
corodra 8y ago
It’s an overpriced dehumidifier. Pulling humidity out of the air. It’s not magic. It’s not new. There is water vapor in the air, every middle schooler knows this. They are in Hawaii. An outdoor dehumidifier will work great in a water abundant area. How well do you think a dehumidifier will work in a low humidity area? The places that need water the most. It’s not making water, it’s pulling out the humidity. This is such a scam. I feel like I’m taking crazy pills. All these “smart” folks gave up 1.5mil and there are tech folks here nodding their heads because it’s xprize. Y’all turned off your thinking just because it’s xprize. Say you want to help 3rd world poor and it gives you magic armor from logic apparently.
- stephengillie 8y ago
  This reminds me of desert water collectors. There are so many that it's hard to find any specific one. Here are a few examples. http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Architecture/wind.htm http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Architecture/wind.htm https://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-technology/sophisticated-water-technologies-ancient-nabataeans-002193 https://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-technology/sophistic... https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/this-tower-pulls-drinking-water-out-of-thin-air-180950399/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/this-tower-pulls-d... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_well_(condenser) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_well_(condenser) http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Moisture_vaporator http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Moisture_vaporator http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/content.asp?Bnum=92 http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/content.asp?Bnum=92
  - moonbug 8y ago
    You do know Star Wars isn't real?
  - kazinator 8y ago
    Better check those last two again; one is about fictional tech from Star Wars, the other likewise about something from Dune.
    - stephengillie 8y ago
VBprogrammer 8y ago
I might be way off base here but is that Jim Mason - Founder of All Power Labs? In that case it hints that gasification could be part of the solution.
- VBprogrammer 8y ago
  Photo for reference: https://goo.gl/images/33dpUM https://goo.gl/images/33dpUM > In rural conditions Bio- Gasification has proved to be very productive and efficient in creating a micro-grid. That from the FAQ here http://www.skysource.org/faq/ http://www.skysource.org/faq/.
  - VBprogrammer 8y ago
    Yup. I think this confirms it. https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/mbddw8/artificial-clouds-in-shipping-containers-may-be-the-solution-the-worlds-water-crisis https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/mbddw8/artificial... They are able to use the waste head and humidity in the exhaust to increase the amount of water extracted.
- reason-mr 8y ago
  As I understand it, it is basically the skysource water extraction device hooked to an all-power labs gassifier, which produces electricity from gassifying organic material. Allpower's product uses the gassifier output in a conventional engine, in turn using that to power a generator. The great part here is - uses locally generated biomass, and produces a waste stream of biochar, which can be used for argiculture, essentially putting the carbon back into the soil. Pretty, it isn't, but carbon neutral it is.
  - VBprogrammer 8y ago
    Yup, that's what I got from it. But also the engine is producing CO2 and Water from the biomass. Which can in turn be fed into the water extractor. I think that is the novel step.
    - 8y ago
08-15 8y ago
"Skywater is an ideal solution for [...] Cooling Tower water recovery" Hilarious. If it was possible to recondense the evaporated water and somehow reject the heat to the air, there wouldn't be a cooling tower! Thunderfoot is right, it's a scam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3s-xI895zc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3s-xI895zc
petermcneeley 8y ago
I actually had a discussion on this subject with Phil Mason aka Thunderfoot who has a Phd in chemistry and is the creator of the video that is critical of this announcement ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3s-xI895zc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3s-xI895zc ) The discussion was about how much work is actually required to condense the water vapor. The fact is that it is thermodynamically possible to MOVE more heat energy (Q) than work (W) applied. The efficiency of heat movement is dependent on temperature gradient but is more than 100% efficient. So as bizarre as this sounds it actually requires effectively zero work to condense water from the air at 100% humidity.
- petermcneeley 8y ago
  * Not to clutter hn but here are my notes for that discussion: http://www.sfu.ca/~mbahrami/ENSC%20461/Notes/Refrigeration%20Cycle.pdf http://www.sfu.ca/~mbahrami/ENSC%20461/Notes/Refrigeration%2... http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Kinetic/watvap.html#c1 http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Kinetic/watvap.ht... this shows that its quite large amount Efficiency fridge = 1 / ( Th / Tl - 1) There is actually way more water in the air than 0.04 grams... i think this is because liters not m^3 for 1m^3 there is 30 grams at 30 degrees and 17.3 at 20 degrees. its at least ~15/10 - > 1.5 grams per Centigrade Say we do small diff of 4 degrees, 30 to 26. We gain 1.5 * 4 = 6 grams / m^3 To do this we need to cool 1m^3 water at 30 to 20. Now this is tricky because humidity but https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/heating-humid-air-d_693.html https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/heating-humid-air-d_693.h... h = 1.01 (kJ/kg.oC) t + x [1.84 (kJ/kg.oC) t + 2502 (kJ/kg)] x is relative weight so its actually small like 0.03 so it changes the result very little h = 1.06 (kJ/kg.oC) t + x 2502 Kj/kg partial diff with t gives us 4.24kJ/kg change for cooling the air (sensible) partial diff with x gives us (0.006kg delta) 2500 - > 15kJ/kg for this 4 degree change for condensation with 6g/m^3 of water Since the cooling of air that didnt result in water is reclaimable energy lets ignore it Now efficiency of this heat transfer 1/ (303.15 / 299.15 - 1) = 75x heat transfer efficiency. Does this make sense? we know heat pumps are amazing :) so per gram its like 15kJ/6g = 2.5kJ/gram -> this is really expected as 2.3MJ/kg from original video! However this heat (Q) is moved via work (W) at 75x rate This means to get 1kg (1L really) it only takes 30KJ So at 15watts (J/sec) -> 2000sec -> 33 min Perhaps this wont work because the MASSSIVE heat sink required :) How much air needs to be moved? we get 6 grams for each meter cubed of air. Not great thats about 166m^3 of air that needs to filter. https://www.amazon.ca/Ultra-Strong-DC12V-Cooling-200CFM/dp/B0054S92FW https://www.amazon.ca/Ultra-Strong-DC12V-Cooling-200CFM/dp/B... 200CFM -> 5.66 m^3/min 60 min/h = 339 ... this is double what we need. its about 1.6A 12v = 15 watt... but its more than we need. Half it?
joshe 8y ago
I don't know why this is attracting so much bitterness. If anyone is informed about water, it would be great to get a little more context, for example what other solutions like desalinization and other dehumidifiers cost in energy and dollars. (Yes, obviously nothing is going to be as cheap as putting a pipe in a river.) For example their FAQ says they use less than half the power of their competitors. That seems like a huge advance. And is $.02/liter amazing or just slightly better?
- mchannon 8y ago
  If you remember back to the perpetual motion machine, that was supposed to produce more electricity than it consumed, you'll capture the mindset detractors like myself have. But look, our PMM is producing this many volts! And it works great on paper too! I haven't seen any data or reports to show this competition actually tested built units and measured both their water output and energy consumed, and did so in a variety of climates. In areas where the mercury has gotten below freezing, for instance, there is no water in the air, and yet, we're supposed to believe these snake oil machines are producing 2000gal/day for $0.02 each, even there.
  - drewm1980 8y ago
    RE "no water in the air blow freezing", that's not true. In the mountains you can hang your towel up to dry at night. It freezes, then dries through sublimation. Ever seen funny smooth ice formations?
    - mchannon 8y ago
      This sounds like a koan: "If there is a frozen towel in the mountains, is there water in the air if there is no one there to measure the humidity it produces?" Assuming there were millions of frozen wet towels in such conditions, any sublimated towel ice would rapidly drop back out of the air as frost.
- hindsightbias 8y ago
  There used to be a time when extraordinary claims required extraordinary evidence - particularly when thermodynamics is involved. The dehumidifier business is a multi-billion industry. Why would they need an X-Prize when they're extraordinarily better than the state-of-the-art? https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20170927005546/en/3-Billion-Dehumidifier-Market---Forecasts-2017 https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20170927005546/en/3-B...
mchannon 8y ago
Pretty disappointed with their choice of winner. Using refrigeration to maintain a dewpoint means that this appliance is pretty impractical below 50% relative humidity. Or in other words, this thing only makes water when you probably don't need water. Blow some nice 90 deg F 20% humid air past those coils, and you'll be blowing out a lot of 80 deg F 25% humid air out on the other side, getting bupkis for actual produced water, but sucking down plenty of juice. Slow down your intake fan to almost zero, and now your water produced goes up from zero, but the slowest of trickles. Gotta love all that ozone generator carbon filter garbage on the business end. It's all just bells and whistles to put lipstick on a three-legged pig.
- mamon 8y ago
  >> this thing only makes water when you probably don't need water. Living in California recently I constantly see the weather forecast claiming 70-90% humidity and yet the area is basically a dessert with almost no rain. I suppose there are many more areas in the world like that.
  - nevlis 8y ago
    Sounds like a delicious place to live
    - romwell 8y ago
      You might think that, but the illusion will break fast if you actually move here. The inland can be supper dry, so much you could almost hear it dinning in your ears. No surprise so many water conservation efforts have been launched here!
  - scythe 8y ago
    That happens because there are many hills which tend to spawn rainclouds when the humidity hits a certain threshold. So while there is moisture in the air it mostly falls in the mountains. Other places with this pattern include e.g. Morocco or the Snake River Valley in Idaho. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_island https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_island (This is also why people keep building houses in fire danger zones: the forests have a nice climate, but they burn. The flat areas don't burn, but they're inhospitable.)
comesee 8y ago
I don't get it, why don't poor communities build piping from their nearby water sources? People were able to do this 2000 years ago. Why do they need to invent a reverse-entropy machine?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- fpoling 8y ago
  Ancient Roman Empire was politically stable. When this is not the case one really needs very local water sources.
  - comesee 8y ago
    Why isn't there an xprize for politically stabilizing these countries then? That would lead to vastly more efficient and convenient water sources.
    - brokensegue 8y ago
      Can't tell if you're joking
      - comesee 8y ago
        That means I'm probably on to something :)
apo 8y ago
Here's some background on alternative approaches: https://cen.acs.org/environment/water/stripping-air-moisture-quench-worlds/96/i41 https://cen.acs.org/environment/water/stripping-air-moisture...
foofoo55 8y ago
Articles all state "from air" but half the system uses pyrolysis (high heat to gasify without flame) to extract water from biomass. See also comments on slashdot from someone claiming to be from All Power Labs, the gasifier supplier: https://science.slashdot.org/story/18/10/22/079250/a-device-that-can-pull-drinking-water-from-the-air-just-won-the-latest-xprize https://science.slashdot.org/story/18/10/22/079250/a-device-...
yourapostasy 8y ago
When I looked into conventional dehumidifiers and air conditioners, what stopped me from systemically re-using air conditioner condensate even as gray water was finding out that it can contain trace amounts of heavy metals and industrial oils from the condensate going through less-than-ideal materials used for the coils and evaporator parts. Also, if you live in an area with air pollution, the condensate contains concentrates of the pollution, as well as allergens and biological contaminants. I'm hoping someone reading this might have looked into it more than I have, and can point me to some reading material that can help me either further work through or dismiss those concerns. When I read through the article, I didn't see any links to potability test results. So there might be a purification step after this gasifier powered water generator to turn the output of this into truly potable water, so the cost won't really be below two cents per liter in the field. Purification itself is an energy-intensive endeavor, whether to create purification materials or straight use of energy in more active systems, and is why potable water is a rough order-of-magnitude proxy for energy.
luckydata 8y ago
Now we just need the sandworms. Edit: not a big Frank Herbert crowd I see.
Avery3R 8y ago
This website is like the perfect example of that "the web in 2018" post that was made a few days ago.
extrapickles 8y ago
It looks like the winner is a standard dehumidifier bolted to a standard biomass generator that has a condenser from a high efficiency furnace bolted on to it. So the only "magic" they are doing is also capturing the water vapor from the generators combustion. While somewhat novel in combining it all, its all off the shelf tech. What I don't like is the lack of good hard numbers in its performance in a range of conditions as snake oil is extremely common in the water from air industry.
- brixon 8y ago
  Off the shelf tech might be what is keeping the cost down.
- Digory 8y ago
  The other magic is financial. My bet is that they assume free biomass. Once you assume input cost = $.00, things look easy. And, to be fair, maybe this thing makes sense after a hurricane. There's lots of "free" biomass laying around in an area of extraordinary transportation costs. But it's obviously not a solution to the "water problem" in rural, impoverished areas. You'd need to include the price of a renewable forest or palm plantation (for coconut shells), or the huge solar array.
foxhop 8y ago
Another way: plant trees in the desert and form oasis. "Watch greening the desert" on Youtube. Basically trees cause rain.
joshe 8y ago
If it all works this would be useful. (Contary to all the negative comments about how pointless this is.) Not a water expert, but here's where this reported price ranks from some googling: Tap water in California: $.0005 / liter [1] XPrize winner: $.02 / liter Water truck delivery in CA: $.01 - $.05 / liter [2] Desalination: $.05 - $.30 / liter [3] Wholesale bottled water: $.30 / liter [4] Walmart bottled water: $.68 / liter [5] If $.02/liter is right, this is close to the water truck in pricing. Also it seems like you could ship this with solar to disaster areas instead of flats and flats of bottled water and be up to 15 times cheaper. It could be an alternative to desalinization near the ocean where there is lots of humidity at 2 to 15 times expense. This seems useful. Tap water is awesome, btw. It's 100 times cheaper than all these options. [1] $.002 per gallon from https://www.wsj.com/articles/my-california-water-is-an-undiluted-bargain-1430781715 https://www.wsj.com/articles/my-california-water-is-an-undil... [2] $200 for 5000 gallons to $500 for 2500 gallons for water truck delivery in California https://www.cnbc.com/2015/04/08/californias-four-year-drought-starts-a-water-truck-boom.html https://www.cnbc.com/2015/04/08/californias-four-year-drough... [3] https://www.quora.com/How-much-does-a-water-desalination-plant-cost https://www.quora.com/How-much-does-a-water-desalination-pla... [4] $1.22 per gallon from https://slate.com/business/2013/07/cost-of-bottled-water-vs-tap-water-the-difference-will-shock-you.html https://slate.com/business/2013/07/cost-of-bottled-water-vs-... [5] $.02 per fl oz from https://www.walmart.com/tp/bottled-water https://www.walmart.com/tp/bottled-water
- tapvt 8y ago
  For places without existing water infrastructure, however, doesn't the technology seem like it may have some appeal? Not everywhere has tap water. Some places don't have an aquifer suitable for drilling a well. Other places don't even have a road network suitable for the delivery of water by truck in an economical manner (or at all). Beyond that, drawing water from the air has benefit in that it does not negatively impact a local aquifer which might already be over-drawn. What is the additional economic benefit per liter of that? That could be subtracted from the $0.02 / liter cost if you care to look at more than just the immediate bottom line.
  - 8y ago
carapace 8y ago
Cf. "Air well" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_well_(condenser) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_well_(condenser)
peter_d_sherman 8y ago
Will this work in a desert?

122 points by sandyshankar 8y ago

Does anyone have any details about their actual technical implementation? I'm sure it is interesting. I imagine it doesn't look too similar to a Tatooine moisture farm.

azernik 8y ago
It looks like a construction-site power generator - big ol' metal cube. http://www.skysource.org/products/ http://www.skysource.org/products/ Technical implementation is claimed to be 'adiabatic distillation' - not sure exactly what that means.
- explorigin 8y ago
  It means that it uses refrigeration to make it rain (maintain a dewpoint temperature) in a small chamber instead of just grabbing the condensation dripping off the refrigeration coils.
corodra 8y ago
Just google “water from thin air”. This has been done quite often the past 15 years. It’s an overpriced dehumidifier that is working outdoors. 1. They’re in Hawaii. It’s a little humid there. So... yea. Dehumidifiers will collect quite a bit of water in a water abundant area. 2. The places that need clean water typically have low humidity as well. To pull water from air, there needs to be water in it. Think of this as all those folks that claim they can run their car on water as a fuel. The thing they fail to mention was they were using a battery to split out the hydrogen from the water to use that as fuel. Which is not more efficient than just using the straight up battery. This is a publicity stunt scam. A real shame too. That money would have been better spent on education or better water infrastructure in places of need.
- JackFr 8y ago
  > They’re in Hawaii. So what you're saying is that they're efficient on an island miles from the the rainiest spot on the planet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Waialeale#Climate_and_Rainfall_Statistics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Waialeale#Climate_and_Ra...
  - corodra 8y ago
    You’d figure they would test something like this for efficiency in the desert. Just to be practical.
- aliswe 8y ago
  https://m.gulfnews.com/news/uae/weather/humidity-in-uae-reaches-100-hotter-days-to-follow-1.2265830 https://m.gulfnews.com/news/uae/weather/humidity-in-uae-reac...
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

post_break 8y ago

Is this another one of those dehumidifier machines that promises it can deliver gallons when using a tarp, rope, and a bucket to catch rain water collects more water per year?

azernik 8y ago
RTFA, especially before snarky dismissals: "meeting the competition parameters of extracting a minimum of 2,000 liters of water per day from the atmosphere using 100 percent renewable energy, at a cost of no more than two cents per liter"
- post_break 8y ago
  I read the article. Do you know how many of these things promise gallons and deliver drops? Pardon me for being pessimistic about it.
  - azernik 8y ago
    They have commercial models for sale that produce half the competition amounts, and have pretty detailed specs online: http://www.skysource.org/products/ http://www.skysource.org/products/
    - Yver 8y ago
      Those specs mention producing half the competition's amount in optimal conditions, which I assume means 99% humidity. They don't actually say at what humidity level and temperature their product can deliver that much. They don't give any specific numbers at any specific temperature, only the machine's operating conditions and the upper limit on what it can produce.
      - azernik 8y ago
        I assume they just put together an array of two or three of their high-capacity converters for the competition.

nyrulez 8y ago

I'm a bit irked that a technology of this significance has no videos or demos or actual use cases, just a PR blurb. Is it confidentiality, or is it too early stage? Otherwise X Prize becomes another congratulatory event. This feeling seems to run through the entire site as I click around.

azernik 8y ago
The company itself has a website at http://www.skysource.org/ http://www.skysource.org/
- nyrulez 8y ago
  That's cool. I hope it takes off. Water shortage is a very serious issue in Asia affecting millions and this solution seems too good to be true, so it's exciting. I wonder what the costs are like and can I buy one and donate them to communities in Asia?
- metaphor 8y ago
  ...which tells us nothing of their XPrize submission.
  - azernik 8y ago
    It's probably 2-4 of their higher-capacity models put together.

rdiddly 8y ago

Remove moisture from the air on any significant scale, and you're depriving someone else of rain, downwind. It's another finite resource. Unforeseen consequences abound. You know, there are places where water falls out of the air on its own, and if you don't spoil the hell out of the landscape you can even drink it. Give it a rest, humans.

rdiddly 8y ago
Oh so we really believe the solution to all problems, including those directly caused by human technology, is going to end up being more technology? That the solution to human-caused complexity is more complexity? (With no diminishment whatsoever in returns?) That the solution to human actions that change the climate is more human changes to the climate? Because Progress? No skepticism at all huh? Nobody subscribes to any quaint notions anymore such as "Extracting water from air is known as rain, and it's free," or "There are already too many humans, living in too many inhospitable places, enabled by technology," or even something as simple as "Hey I can keep two contradictory ideas in my head at the same time like 'I work on technology' yet 'Technology always has a downside'?" There's an old apocryphal saying along the lines of (please say this in the stereotyped voice of Tonto or any Native American portrayed by Hollywood): Red man build small fire, keep warm. White man build big fire, keep warm by chopping wood. Just thought I'd throw that in, since it's roughly analogous. The human population needs to be cut back to within a sensible ecological planetary carrying-capacity, not be further propped up by ever-more exotic tech. The cutback will happen regardless, when these technologies inevitably fail or lead to worse problems that feed back on each other. But it's still frustrating that everybody wants to just rush headlong into the brick wall instead of hitting the brakes, and that anybody who has any foresight is automatically some Luddite or old-timer. Like people fresh-out-the-womb are the smartest ones, and the unquestioning belief in tech is anything but gullibility! Give me your money then!

ortusdux 8y ago

Here is the website for one of the winners: http://www.skysource.org/ http://www.skysource.org/ From what I can glean online, the 150 gal/day unit costs $18k usd + $150-$300 in electricity a month if run 24/7 at $0.10Kwh. Ignoring electrical costs, it would take 1581 days to reach $0.02/liter. In that time you would use up $7.5-15k in electricity. The best estimate I could find is that the average US household uses 240 gal a day. A friend of mine had to drill a 980 ft well through bedrock. A well this deep requires a much stronger pump and more electricity. They are on their 2nd pump. I should ask them what that all cost.

maxmcd 8y ago
I think the competition guidelines are around manufacturing cost, not retail cost: > The cost per liter of water extraction will also be calculated based on a pro forma Bill of Materials and estimated NRE and tooling costs. A more detailed description of this calculation is provided in the Rules and Regulations. The Affordability Index must be less than $0.02 (two cents). No prize will be awarded to a Team that does not meet that criterion. https://assets-us-01.kc-usercontent.com/5cb25086-82d2-4c89-94f0-8450813a0fd3/d0566aab-703f-46e0-9571-3c379ea60309/water_abundance_xprize_guidelines_v3_2017-02-28.pdf https://assets-us-01.kc-usercontent.com/5cb25086-82d2-4c89-9...
black6 8y ago
All the pictures show the units operating in lush, green environments, which would indicate high(er) humidity where moisture extraction from the air is trivial. I'd like to see some action shots from the middle of the Atacama or Taklamakan.
jandrese 8y ago
I'm going to guess that if you need to spend $18k on equipment to get your water then you probably aren't going to blow through 240 gallons a day. 150 gallons could be quite a lot of fresh water for a small remote village that otherwise lacks a good fresh water source. Useful for drinking and cooking, but not used for bathing or irrigation. I assume the system could be powered by a reasonably sized solar array. On the other hand, given the cost of this setup it would probably be a lot easier and cheaper to install water filters.

beauzero 8y ago

Good video on how we see an Adiabatic Cooling process drop moisture in nature. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH_M4jItiKw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH_M4jItiKw edit: I personally didn't know what "adiabatic" meant.

travisoneill1 8y ago

2 cents a liter is not close to feasible for any sort of agricultural or industrial use and is an order of magnitude more expensive than residential tap water. Seems like cool tech, but I can't see how this is a solution to any type of water shortage.

jpm_sd 8y ago
I believe the general idea is to provide drinking water where there is no pre-existing "residential tap water" infrastructure.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
ed_balls 8y ago
Another problem is that the water doesn't taste great.
- polynomial 8y ago
  Source?
  - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
    Well, it's essentially producing distilled water. Many people find that somewhat distateful.
  - glibgil 8y ago
    The water is pulled from the air
  - cellularmitosis 8y ago
    Perhaps he's referring to the notion that, in general, the taste of distilled water differs from mineral water? Also, I was about to post a concern about distilled water possibly leaching nutrients from the body, but a quick google reveals the opposite may be true: https://www.nutriteam.com/distilledleach/ https://www.nutriteam.com/distilledleach/

corodra 8y ago

It’s an overpriced dehumidifier. Pulling humidity out of the air. It’s not magic. It’s not new. There is water vapor in the air, every middle schooler knows this. They are in Hawaii. An outdoor dehumidifier will work great in a water abundant area. How well do you think a dehumidifier will work in a low humidity area? The places that need water the most. It’s not making water, it’s pulling out the humidity. This is such a scam. I feel like I’m taking crazy pills. All these “smart” folks gave up 1.5mil and there are tech folks here nodding their heads because it’s xprize. Y’all turned off your thinking just because it’s xprize. Say you want to help 3rd world poor and it gives you magic armor from logic apparently.

stephengillie 8y ago
This reminds me of desert water collectors. There are so many that it's hard to find any specific one. Here are a few examples. http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Architecture/wind.htm http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Architecture/wind.htm https://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-technology/sophisticated-water-technologies-ancient-nabataeans-002193 https://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-technology/sophistic... https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/this-tower-pulls-drinking-water-out-of-thin-air-180950399/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/this-tower-pulls-d... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_well_(condenser) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_well_(condenser) http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Moisture_vaporator http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Moisture_vaporator http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/content.asp?Bnum=92 http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/content.asp?Bnum=92
- moonbug 8y ago
  You do know Star Wars isn't real?
- kazinator 8y ago
  Better check those last two again; one is about fictional tech from Star Wars, the other likewise about something from Dune.
  - stephengillie 8y ago

VBprogrammer 8y ago

I might be way off base here but is that Jim Mason - Founder of All Power Labs? In that case it hints that gasification could be part of the solution.

VBprogrammer 8y ago
Photo for reference: https://goo.gl/images/33dpUM https://goo.gl/images/33dpUM > In rural conditions Bio- Gasification has proved to be very productive and efficient in creating a micro-grid. That from the FAQ here http://www.skysource.org/faq/ http://www.skysource.org/faq/.
- VBprogrammer 8y ago
  Yup. I think this confirms it. https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/mbddw8/artificial-clouds-in-shipping-containers-may-be-the-solution-the-worlds-water-crisis https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/mbddw8/artificial... They are able to use the waste head and humidity in the exhaust to increase the amount of water extracted.
reason-mr 8y ago
As I understand it, it is basically the skysource water extraction device hooked to an all-power labs gassifier, which produces electricity from gassifying organic material. Allpower's product uses the gassifier output in a conventional engine, in turn using that to power a generator. The great part here is - uses locally generated biomass, and produces a waste stream of biochar, which can be used for argiculture, essentially putting the carbon back into the soil. Pretty, it isn't, but carbon neutral it is.
- VBprogrammer 8y ago
  Yup, that's what I got from it. But also the engine is producing CO2 and Water from the biomass. Which can in turn be fed into the water extractor. I think that is the novel step.
  - 8y ago

08-15 8y ago

"Skywater is an ideal solution for [...] Cooling Tower water recovery" Hilarious. If it was possible to recondense the evaporated water and somehow reject the heat to the air, there wouldn't be a cooling tower! Thunderfoot is right, it's a scam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3s-xI895zc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3s-xI895zc

petermcneeley 8y ago

I actually had a discussion on this subject with Phil Mason aka Thunderfoot who has a Phd in chemistry and is the creator of the video that is critical of this announcement ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3s-xI895zc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3s-xI895zc ) The discussion was about how much work is actually required to condense the water vapor. The fact is that it is thermodynamically possible to MOVE more heat energy (Q) than work (W) applied. The efficiency of heat movement is dependent on temperature gradient but is more than 100% efficient. So as bizarre as this sounds it actually requires effectively zero work to condense water from the air at 100% humidity.

petermcneeley 8y ago
* Not to clutter hn but here are my notes for that discussion: http://www.sfu.ca/~mbahrami/ENSC%20461/Notes/Refrigeration%20Cycle.pdf http://www.sfu.ca/~mbahrami/ENSC%20461/Notes/Refrigeration%2... http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Kinetic/watvap.html#c1 http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Kinetic/watvap.ht... this shows that its quite large amount Efficiency fridge = 1 / ( Th / Tl - 1) There is actually way more water in the air than 0.04 grams... i think this is because liters not m^3 for 1m^3 there is 30 grams at 30 degrees and 17.3 at 20 degrees. its at least ~15/10 - > 1.5 grams per Centigrade Say we do small diff of 4 degrees, 30 to 26. We gain 1.5 * 4 = 6 grams / m^3 To do this we need to cool 1m^3 water at 30 to 20. Now this is tricky because humidity but https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/heating-humid-air-d_693.html https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/heating-humid-air-d_693.h... h = 1.01 (kJ/kg.oC) t + x [1.84 (kJ/kg.oC) t + 2502 (kJ/kg)] x is relative weight so its actually small like 0.03 so it changes the result very little h = 1.06 (kJ/kg.oC) t + x 2502 Kj/kg partial diff with t gives us 4.24kJ/kg change for cooling the air (sensible) partial diff with x gives us (0.006kg delta) 2500 - > 15kJ/kg for this 4 degree change for condensation with 6g/m^3 of water Since the cooling of air that didnt result in water is reclaimable energy lets ignore it Now efficiency of this heat transfer 1/ (303.15 / 299.15 - 1) = 75x heat transfer efficiency. Does this make sense? we know heat pumps are amazing :) so per gram its like 15kJ/6g = 2.5kJ/gram -> this is really expected as 2.3MJ/kg from original video! However this heat (Q) is moved via work (W) at 75x rate This means to get 1kg (1L really) it only takes 30KJ So at 15watts (J/sec) -> 2000sec -> 33 min Perhaps this wont work because the MASSSIVE heat sink required :) How much air needs to be moved? we get 6 grams for each meter cubed of air. Not great thats about 166m^3 of air that needs to filter. https://www.amazon.ca/Ultra-Strong-DC12V-Cooling-200CFM/dp/B0054S92FW https://www.amazon.ca/Ultra-Strong-DC12V-Cooling-200CFM/dp/B... 200CFM -> 5.66 m^3/min 60 min/h = 339 ... this is double what we need. its about 1.6A 12v = 15 watt... but its more than we need. Half it?

joshe 8y ago

I don't know why this is attracting so much bitterness. If anyone is informed about water, it would be great to get a little more context, for example what other solutions like desalinization and other dehumidifiers cost in energy and dollars. (Yes, obviously nothing is going to be as cheap as putting a pipe in a river.) For example their FAQ says they use less than half the power of their competitors. That seems like a huge advance. And is $.02/liter amazing or just slightly better?

mchannon 8y ago
If you remember back to the perpetual motion machine, that was supposed to produce more electricity than it consumed, you'll capture the mindset detractors like myself have. But look, our PMM is producing this many volts! And it works great on paper too! I haven't seen any data or reports to show this competition actually tested built units and measured both their water output and energy consumed, and did so in a variety of climates. In areas where the mercury has gotten below freezing, for instance, there is no water in the air, and yet, we're supposed to believe these snake oil machines are producing 2000gal/day for $0.02 each, even there.
- drewm1980 8y ago
  RE "no water in the air blow freezing", that's not true. In the mountains you can hang your towel up to dry at night. It freezes, then dries through sublimation. Ever seen funny smooth ice formations?
  - mchannon 8y ago
    This sounds like a koan: "If there is a frozen towel in the mountains, is there water in the air if there is no one there to measure the humidity it produces?" Assuming there were millions of frozen wet towels in such conditions, any sublimated towel ice would rapidly drop back out of the air as frost.
hindsightbias 8y ago
There used to be a time when extraordinary claims required extraordinary evidence - particularly when thermodynamics is involved. The dehumidifier business is a multi-billion industry. Why would they need an X-Prize when they're extraordinarily better than the state-of-the-art? https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20170927005546/en/3-Billion-Dehumidifier-Market---Forecasts-2017 https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20170927005546/en/3-B...

mchannon 8y ago

Pretty disappointed with their choice of winner. Using refrigeration to maintain a dewpoint means that this appliance is pretty impractical below 50% relative humidity. Or in other words, this thing only makes water when you probably don't need water. Blow some nice 90 deg F 20% humid air past those coils, and you'll be blowing out a lot of 80 deg F 25% humid air out on the other side, getting bupkis for actual produced water, but sucking down plenty of juice. Slow down your intake fan to almost zero, and now your water produced goes up from zero, but the slowest of trickles. Gotta love all that ozone generator carbon filter garbage on the business end. It's all just bells and whistles to put lipstick on a three-legged pig.

mamon 8y ago
>> this thing only makes water when you probably don't need water. Living in California recently I constantly see the weather forecast claiming 70-90% humidity and yet the area is basically a dessert with almost no rain. I suppose there are many more areas in the world like that.
- nevlis 8y ago
  Sounds like a delicious place to live
  - romwell 8y ago
    You might think that, but the illusion will break fast if you actually move here. The inland can be supper dry, so much you could almost hear it dinning in your ears. No surprise so many water conservation efforts have been launched here!
- scythe 8y ago
  That happens because there are many hills which tend to spawn rainclouds when the humidity hits a certain threshold. So while there is moisture in the air it mostly falls in the mountains. Other places with this pattern include e.g. Morocco or the Snake River Valley in Idaho. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_island https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_island (This is also why people keep building houses in fire danger zones: the forests have a nice climate, but they burn. The flat areas don't burn, but they're inhospitable.)

comesee 8y ago

I don't get it, why don't poor communities build piping from their nearby water sources? People were able to do this 2000 years ago. Why do they need to invent a reverse-entropy machine?

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
fpoling 8y ago
Ancient Roman Empire was politically stable. When this is not the case one really needs very local water sources.
- comesee 8y ago
  Why isn't there an xprize for politically stabilizing these countries then? That would lead to vastly more efficient and convenient water sources.
  - brokensegue 8y ago
    Can't tell if you're joking
    - comesee 8y ago
      That means I'm probably on to something :)

apo 8y ago

Here's some background on alternative approaches: https://cen.acs.org/environment/water/stripping-air-moisture-quench-worlds/96/i41 https://cen.acs.org/environment/water/stripping-air-moisture...

foofoo55 8y ago

Articles all state "from air" but half the system uses pyrolysis (high heat to gasify without flame) to extract water from biomass. See also comments on slashdot from someone claiming to be from All Power Labs, the gasifier supplier: https://science.slashdot.org/story/18/10/22/079250/a-device-that-can-pull-drinking-water-from-the-air-just-won-the-latest-xprize https://science.slashdot.org/story/18/10/22/079250/a-device-...

yourapostasy 8y ago

When I looked into conventional dehumidifiers and air conditioners, what stopped me from systemically re-using air conditioner condensate even as gray water was finding out that it can contain trace amounts of heavy metals and industrial oils from the condensate going through less-than-ideal materials used for the coils and evaporator parts. Also, if you live in an area with air pollution, the condensate contains concentrates of the pollution, as well as allergens and biological contaminants. I'm hoping someone reading this might have looked into it more than I have, and can point me to some reading material that can help me either further work through or dismiss those concerns. When I read through the article, I didn't see any links to potability test results. So there might be a purification step after this gasifier powered water generator to turn the output of this into truly potable water, so the cost won't really be below two cents per liter in the field. Purification itself is an energy-intensive endeavor, whether to create purification materials or straight use of energy in more active systems, and is why potable water is a rough order-of-magnitude proxy for energy.

luckydata 8y ago

Now we just need the sandworms. Edit: not a big Frank Herbert crowd I see.

Avery3R 8y ago

This website is like the perfect example of that "the web in 2018" post that was made a few days ago.

extrapickles 8y ago

It looks like the winner is a standard dehumidifier bolted to a standard biomass generator that has a condenser from a high efficiency furnace bolted on to it. So the only "magic" they are doing is also capturing the water vapor from the generators combustion. While somewhat novel in combining it all, its all off the shelf tech. What I don't like is the lack of good hard numbers in its performance in a range of conditions as snake oil is extremely common in the water from air industry.

brixon 8y ago
Off the shelf tech might be what is keeping the cost down.
Digory 8y ago
The other magic is financial. My bet is that they assume free biomass. Once you assume input cost = $.00, things look easy. And, to be fair, maybe this thing makes sense after a hurricane. There's lots of "free" biomass laying around in an area of extraordinary transportation costs. But it's obviously not a solution to the "water problem" in rural, impoverished areas. You'd need to include the price of a renewable forest or palm plantation (for coconut shells), or the huge solar array.

foxhop 8y ago

Another way: plant trees in the desert and form oasis. "Watch greening the desert" on Youtube. Basically trees cause rain.

joshe 8y ago

If it all works this would be useful. (Contary to all the negative comments about how pointless this is.) Not a water expert, but here's where this reported price ranks from some googling: Tap water in California: $.0005 / liter [1] XPrize winner: $.02 / liter Water truck delivery in CA: $.01 - $.05 / liter [2] Desalination: $.05 - $.30 / liter [3] Wholesale bottled water: $.30 / liter [4] Walmart bottled water: $.68 / liter [5] If $.02/liter is right, this is close to the water truck in pricing. Also it seems like you could ship this with solar to disaster areas instead of flats and flats of bottled water and be up to 15 times cheaper. It could be an alternative to desalinization near the ocean where there is lots of humidity at 2 to 15 times expense. This seems useful. Tap water is awesome, btw. It's 100 times cheaper than all these options. [1] $.002 per gallon from https://www.wsj.com/articles/my-california-water-is-an-undiluted-bargain-1430781715 https://www.wsj.com/articles/my-california-water-is-an-undil... [2] $200 for 5000 gallons to $500 for 2500 gallons for water truck delivery in California https://www.cnbc.com/2015/04/08/californias-four-year-drought-starts-a-water-truck-boom.html https://www.cnbc.com/2015/04/08/californias-four-year-drough... [3] https://www.quora.com/How-much-does-a-water-desalination-plant-cost https://www.quora.com/How-much-does-a-water-desalination-pla... [4] $1.22 per gallon from https://slate.com/business/2013/07/cost-of-bottled-water-vs-tap-water-the-difference-will-shock-you.html https://slate.com/business/2013/07/cost-of-bottled-water-vs-... [5] $.02 per fl oz from https://www.walmart.com/tp/bottled-water https://www.walmart.com/tp/bottled-water

tapvt 8y ago
For places without existing water infrastructure, however, doesn't the technology seem like it may have some appeal? Not everywhere has tap water. Some places don't have an aquifer suitable for drilling a well. Other places don't even have a road network suitable for the delivery of water by truck in an economical manner (or at all). Beyond that, drawing water from the air has benefit in that it does not negatively impact a local aquifer which might already be over-drawn. What is the additional economic benefit per liter of that? That could be subtracted from the $0.02 / liter cost if you care to look at more than just the immediate bottom line.
- 8y ago

carapace 8y ago

Cf. "Air well" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_well_(condenser) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_well_(condenser)

peter_d_sherman 8y ago

Will this work in a desert?