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Sqlite: Code Of Conduct
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- rbanffy 8y agoI had to read this as an elaborate joke around such codes. It'd be certainly amusing to see people trying to be in compliance.
- catawbasam 8y agoWhy? Seems to me more likely a sincere attempt to communicate the author's own code of conduct, and the spirit in which he has offered sqlite to his neighbors.
- manicdee 8y agoWhat makes you think people being respectful to each other would be amusing?
- rbanffy 8y agoThe religious ones, in special, are hard to follow for an Atheist like me. I suppose members of non-Christian religions will find it difficult too. This shortcoming is so salient it's hard to imagine it never came up in discussions.
- manicdee 8y agoThis reminds me of that joke about which life choice a vegan Crossfitter will bring up first :D
- hudibras 8y agoUgh, wall of text. Can I get a tl;dr?
- swebs 8y agoNo heresy
- mirekrusin 8y agotl;dr is "Do not do to another what you would not have done to yourself.".
- Cthulhu_ 8y ago"Don't be a dick", in modern parlance.
- LandR 8y ago>> 38. Be not lazy.
- roguecoder 8y agoFear hell and pray lots because you suck but God is cool.
- k__ 8y agoIs this an elaborate joke or something?!
- swebs 8y agoSeems more like them telling people to stop bothering them with divisive CoC bullshit. In a similar vein to NCoC https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC
- LawnDart1 8y agoFirst, I never knew SQLLite was quite so religious, Second 69. Love your juniors. Really? Won't HR get involved?
- lowry 8y agoJust to call the police.
- Brotkrumen 8y agoWell you also shall not commit adultery so marry them first.
- manicdee 8y agoRemember you can love your juniors you just can’t lurve your juniors. I will also remind you of three important words: Filos, Eros and Agape.
- baud147258 8y agoFor the second point, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18278892 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18278892, which give details on that rule.
- apexalpha 8y ago> Speak no useless words or words that move to laughter. Aww here goes my entire social coping strategy. That being said: this is a stab at Linux CoC? I can see the humour in it but... Seems unprofessonal for a project as SQLite?
- unmole 8y agoIt was added in Feb 2018. So, no.
- HarryHirsch 8y agoDidn't we all encounter bosses who would call endless meetings and who would laugh at points that they could not understand? This one is important, even if the fellow from the Name of the Rose had a strange take on it.
- ovi256 8y agoWell this is surely extraordinary among codes of conduct, with its direct mention of God. It's bound to ruffle a lot of feathers, and act as a beacon for culture war.
- AndriyKunitsyn 8y agoFascinating! Some folks really need a reminder of what "inclusiveness" means.
- O2F2 8y agoYes, it's meant as a joking stab at those who seemingly cannot live without having a CoC everywhere. Especially in projects they do not actually participate in. Now watch as this gets blown out of proportion, because this will make some people really, really angry. Id be very surprised if this stays up actually.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- mikeash 8y agoReligious discrimination isn’t ok and being annoyed by it isn’t blowing things out of proportion.
- O2F2 8y agoI see the religious part of this CoC as purely incidental to the source material (it being 15 centuries old and aimed at christian monks). It's clearly not meat to be taken serious, even though I'd agree with a lot of the common sense points listed. Now, being a bit annoyed at the religious implications is not being really angry and blowing things out of proportion. Being annoyed still leaves room for discussion. What I meant is the major poop flinging through major publications that will undoubtedly follow over the next few days, activating large swaths of those people I mentioned. Those who thrive on nonconstructive anger. In general I'd agree with you, just leave religion out of it, even when it's (or especially?) in a joking manner. Edit: Typo
- mikeash 8y agoI see the religious part as being the entire point, since it comes from a religious order. The very first rule is about loving a particular deity. If we were to go back in time and find these people, what do you think would offend them more, “I hold grudges” or “there is no god”?
- anbro 8y agoI daresay that a difference in opinion like that would probably not trigger most people back in that age in the same manner it seems to do so now (on both sides - I'm not picking on one side here).
- jf- 8y agoHa. Needs some tweaks here and there but it’s a good start!
- LawnDart1 8y agoI think it needs to be more specific, which God? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deities_by_classification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deities_by_classificat...
- expertentipp 8y agoAmen
- chippy 8y agoDiscussion on the sqlite-users mailing list: http://sqlite.1065341.n5.nabble.com/Regarding-CoC-td104277.html http://sqlite.1065341.n5.nabble.com/Regarding-CoC-td104277.h... From Richard: "Yes. Clients were encouraging me to have a code of conduct. (Having a CoC seems to be a trendy thing nowadays.) So I looked around and came up with what you found, submitted the idea to the whole staff, and everybody approved."
- swebs 8y agoSomeone should also point him here: https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC
- simias 8y agoI don't care much for CoCs but the tone of the README makes me think that the author is the type of people CoCs are written for (or against). A page long strawman rant. If you don't care about CoC then don't have one. Don't use this passive aggressive "let me write a thousand word essay to let you know how much I don't care about or have time to deal with CoCs". >However, if someone tells you you are stupid, or wrong. Stop. Think. Does this have anything to do with your race, region, religion, or anything else not related to this project? This is a tricky one. Have you considered, that they are either having a bad day, are a bad listener, or possibly, you are wrong? If you feel you're not wrong, please, by all means, reply. If I call somebody stupid in the context of a technical contribution to a project then I'm being unprofessional and out of line. Doesn't mean that I should automatically be executed publicly but I don't see why it should be the person being insulted who should introspect to figure out what I meant exactly. Oh and if I contribute to your project and you call me stupid I can assure you that I won't reply, I'll get out of here as fast as I can and never return.
- simias 8y agoLeaving aside the religious aspect of the CoC which are probably going to be controversial the other rules are actually fairly common sense. A few that caught my eye: > Do not give way to anger. > Do not nurse a grudge. > Do not entertain deceit in your heart. > Do not give a false peace. > Do not swear, for fear of perjuring yourself. > Utter only truth from heart and mouth. > Do not return evil for evil. > Be not a grumbler. > Be not a detractor. > Hate no one. > Be not jealous, nor harbor envy. > Do not love quarreling. > Shun arrogance. > Respect your seniors. > Love your juniors. > Make peace with your adversary before the sun sets. Good rules to live by IMO.
- aral 8y agoJoke or not, dick move either way.
- catawbasam 8y agoWhy do you think that?
- idoubtit 8y agoI don't understand the purpose of this. I hope it's an elaborate joke, but it is surprisingly unprofessional. A few years ago I spent some time in their dev mailing list and proposed a patch. I doubt I'd still do this in this context. This code of conduct that requires members to honor th Christ, even as a joke, would make me reluctant to interact with SQLite.
- lsd5you 8y agoYes, but when did professionalism become a requirement for open source software?
- thrower123 8y agoIt was a disqualification once upon a time, or at least a severe black mark to atone for.
- drivingmenuts 8y ago> Yes, but when did professionalism become a requirement for open source software? About the point where a third developer joined a project. One person can slag himself all day long and it's just crazy muttering. Two people can slag each other all day long and it's he said/she said or some combination thereof. Three people ... dammit, there's a witness.
- roguecoder 8y agoWhen people started having both standards and options. I can choose between a college frathouse and a productive guild hall: why would I live in a frathouse?
- lsd5you 8y agoIndeed. Choose away. Of course in the end you choose the one with functioning plumbing.
- HarryHirsch 8y agorequires members to honor the Christ The text does not permit this interpretation.
- deadbunny 8y agoHail Satan!
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- dang 8y agoPlease don't do this here.
- Annatar 8y ago"Having a CoC seems to be a trendy thing nowadays." Here, then, is an example of how society falls. Never has any good come out of such things, and for as long as one seeks to dominate, oppress and limit another in any such way, no matter how sweet the words, their meaning will forever remain imprisonment of another.
- aokiji 8y agoThe CoC has been used in Linux by an Intel-hired transsexual movement to make character assassinations of developers who were not too keen on implementing Intel backdoors. Those who oppose? Get called transphobic and targeted with made-up rape allegations. Further reading: https://twitter.com/nickmon1112 https://twitter.com/nickmon1112
- yakshaving_jgt 8y ago> 39. Be not a grumbler. Oh dear. That's basically all of us.
- andrew_ 8y agoThere goes my day job.
- SonOfThePlower 8y agoBest CoC I have ever seen! I do not think that it is joke. From sqlite's source code: The author disclaims copyright to this source code. In place of a legal notice, here is a blessing: May you do good and not evil. May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others. May you share freely, never taking more than you give.
- qbaqbaqba 8y agoWas it sqlite that had a special clause allowing redhat users to use it for evil purposes?
- kalleboo 8y agoDouglas Crockford gave a license to IBM to use JSLint for evil https://www.cnet.com/news/dont-be-evil-google-spurns-no-evil-software/ https://www.cnet.com/news/dont-be-evil-google-spurns-no-evil...
- mrweasel 8y agoPeople seem to be upset about the religious parts of the code of conduct, just read the overview, it's in no way intended to force religion onto people. If the religious bits was to be deleted, it would be hard for anyone to disagree. I see it as no less good or bad than any other code of conduct I've seen. Most of them could be used to throw anyone out of any project, if you chose to do so. The code of conducts for a lot of projects are so selectively enforced that is ridiculous.
- O2F2 8y agoI don't think any of this is meant to be serious anyway. This is literally a set of rules meant for a order of ascetic monks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_Saint_Benedict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_Saint_Benedict Although, religious aspects aside, there are many valuable tenets to be found in there, which will be directly opposed by those who want to get angry about it.
- bluetomcat 8y agoThe ultimate CoC to put an end to this silly practice.
- dvfjsdhgfv 8y agoI don't think it will put an end to this as many people are simply too afraid to refuse (heck, even Linus gave in!), but if other projects react in a similar way, it will be a breath of fresh air and make it more difficult to enforce SoC for all open source projects.
- HugoDaniel 8y agoWould our lord and savior Linux Torvalds be able to participate in the SQLite community with this CoC ? :D
- gonvaled 8y agoGreat! I can't wait for another project adopting an Islamic CoC (not to be enforced!), and read the comments.
- obeattie 8y agoHow immature. If you disagree with having a code of conduct, then not having one seems preferable to making it an insult to those asking for one.
- cgag 8y agoBe not a grumbler Edit: in all seriousness (in accordance with The Rule), I think open mockery from a serious project is extrodinarily important
- kingofhdds 8y agoWhat part if it is the insult?
- drb91 8y agoHow do you figure?
- ansraliant 8y agoAnother CoC.... because snowflakes need protection from this hostile world.
- finnthehuman 8y agoI am surprised at how dismissive and intolerant the comments here are of this code of conduct. And I say this as an atheist that still harbors a lot of resentment against my family's religion. Do you have so little empathy that you can't possibly image someone adopting The Rule of St. Benedict in good faith (no pun intended)?
- DanielBMarkham 8y agoAgnostic here. Sure, why not? Group codes of conduct are a form of mutually-enforced morality. Why not pick up a template that seems to have worked in the past and reuse parts of it? It all won't fit, of course, but why re-invent the wheel? I'm really much more interested in the track record of how various of these items worked out (or not) than I am in impeaching the source. Who cares about that stuff?
- stephenr 8y ago> so little empathy that you can't possibly image someone adopting The Rule of St. Benedict in good faith I think it's more that the wording suggests the author pushing his own faith onto others.
- jymbo 8y agoThat's what every CoC does.
- stephenr 8y agoI've never heard of a CoC demanding belief in a specific deity before.
- legostormtroopr 8y agoMost Codes of Conduct prescribe to ideas of patriarchy or intersectionality - if you don't believe in these, then you are generally reeducated or expelled. I have seen equal evidence for the existence of a God as I have the existence of a Patriarchy.
- thrower123 8y agoI do get a little joy on my monday morning that there are still people out there doing good work who can just tell people in a pig's eye when they are pressured to do stupid things.
- yAnonymous 8y agoAmazing.
- fanbelt 8y agoFor me, rule 11 conflicts with rules 59 and 63. There is a merge conflict.
- kingofhdds 8y agoAwesome. It's the first CoC for a FOSS project which sets the plank for good behaviour high enough!
- bitcynth 8y agoRegardless if this is a joke or not, this is not acceptable, you can't put religious things in the code of conduct. Even if it is a joke, it is still awful and I wish that it gets removed quickly.
- SQLite 8y ago> you can't put religious things in the code of conduct. Why not? Isn't the whole point of a code-of-conduct to describe the ethical values of a community? And isn't all ethics a kind of religion, even if it does not always make explicit mention of deity? From that point of view, every code-of-conduct is a credo, by definition. Suppose I were to go in and edit St. Benedict's rules to omit all reference to "God" and "Christ", leaving behind such things as "do not steal", "do not nurse a grudge", "do not return evil for evil", and so forth. Would the document be acceptable to you then? If not, then what exactly are the ground rules for codes of conduct? And who makes those rules? Is there a code-of-conduct for codes of conduct? If you answer "Yes" to the previous, then are you suggesting that you and/or I are somehow wiser than Benedict of Nursia, such that we are able to edit and improve upon his work?
- aidenn0 8y agoNot OP, but 1500 years of hindsight can give knowledge that could make up for any deficiency in wisdom. Furthermore the rules were written for those who were already professing belief in the christian deity.
- bitcynth 8y agowell yes you could if you put it like that, my main point is that in that case you would have to make sure the community as a whole (all the main devs) share that point of view.
- anbro 8y agoWhich code of conduct was that rule in? :)
- bitcynth 8y ago
- caiocaiocaio 8y agoLeaving aside everything else, using the rule of St. Benedict and pointing out its influence on medieval thought seems like poor choice. Benedictine monasteries were often notoriously corrupt. There were frequent attempts at Benedictine reform, but it was almost always that case that in a few decades, the reformers would become more corrupt than those they were initially criticizing. And, of course, is medieval government actually something to aspire to? Medieval European governments were extremely unstable, collapsed frequently (often due to assassination), rarely went a decade without civil war/armed rebellion, their legal systems were patchy and inconsistent, and almost all of them had laws which separated punishments for commoners and noble-born. The fact that medieval law was influenced by the Benedictine rule seems like a reason to reject it.
- drb91 8y agoCode of conduct still requires enforcement.
- rleigh 8y agoGiven the selective enforcement of some of these modern day religious texts (CoCs), one could strongly argue that the people with the power to enforce the CoC are already showing corruption far worse than any inappropriate conduct they purport to solve.
- mikeash 8y agoInteresting to see so many people defending this, either on the basis of “it’s satire” or “it says you don’t have to follow every single rule.” Would you be saying the same thing if it said “Allah” instead of “God”? What if it said you had to love Osama bin Laden? What if rule 1 was “love white people”? Religious discrimination is poor fodder for satire and is not something we should just selectively ignore. Edit: wonder what the downvotes are about. Don’t like seeing Yahweh compared to ObL, maybe? Well, my point exactly.
- stestagg 8y agoI think the downvotes attest to the facetiousness of your comments. I would fully expect references to Allah to be treated in the same way by the people who commented positively about this work.
- mikeash 8y agoI’m not being facetious at all. Maybe Allah would be treated the same way, although I doubt it. I’m really sure my other examples wouldn’t.
- anbro 8y agoAlthough I vehemently disagree with the beliefs of Muslims, I have always had a great deal of respect for the fact that they are unapologetic about them. I, for one, appreciate this whole thing. If I were required to love Osama bin Laden, well, my Lord Himself requires us to 'love our enemies', and 'pray for those who persecute you'. There is no religious discrimination here. It appears that some seem to believe that if religion is mentioned, that is discrimination. But that word does not mean that.
- mikl 8y agoAn interesting mirroring of the popular CoCs these days. While they enshrine what one could call "San Francisco Democrat" values, this CoC enshrines christian conservative values. If you think value-based CoCs are fine, you shouldn't have a problem with this.
- drngdds 8y agoBecause I'm not a complete moral relativist, I think there is a difference between good values and bad values
- mikl 8y agoThat's almost a tautology. Everyone find their own values good, and other people's values less good (if not downright bad). In any case, you might have gained some understanding of why other people get upset, when _your_ values are imposed on them.
- sagichmal 8y agoAnd those people are wrong. It's OK, and necessary, for human beings to make ethical judgments. The correct position is one that minimizes suffering, not one that absolves itself of the responsibility to make difficult choices, in deference to some arbitrary, inhumane objectivity.
- archagon 8y agoIf you are equivocating this CoC to Republican conservative values, you are laughably wrong.
- mikl 8y agoI did not say Republican. Nor did I mean Republican.
- joshberkus 8y agoThey're certainly Christian values, but they're not "conservative", at least not by the American definition. I'll point you to these tenets: * Relieve the poor. * Clothe the naked. * Visit the sick. ... those seem like "liberal values" to me, at least on the American spectrum.
- jbogard 8y agoThis is now the dumbest CoC I've seen today, and the RMS one set quite the low bar. Any actual enforceable CoC that may get adopted loses any credibility with this move.
- drb91 8y agoAny actual critique or are you just gonna scream at the moon?
- raxxorrax 8y agoI think everyone should try to do the best to get along with others. That said, I wouldn't even cry if that would be that case. No COC will improve anything. It just might divide contributors without any benefit.
- stupidbird 8y agoHaving a code of conduct isn't about creating rules, it's about making a public commitment to enforce them. Now that they've shown us that they clearly don't care about a code of conduct, I wouldn't trust them to ever handle any actual conduct issues in a reasonable way. Maybe they'd just send me a joke instead.
- smpetrey 8y agoThis is 100% absurd.
- _pgmf 8y agoIf the code of conduct angers you, stop and think -- how did you feel one minute before you read the CoC? Is the problem really the CoC, or is it your collection of beliefs that is causing the problem? Furthermore, are you even affected? Do you contribute bug reports or patches? Follow the SQLite mailing list? Is anything here designed to prevent you from continuing to do so? SQLite's author is a spiritual guy. There's nothing wrong with him borrowing from spiritual sources to describe his ideal for how he wants the SQLite community to conduct itself.
- iodiniemetra 8y ago#1 on the list is: First of all, love the Lord God with your whole heart, your whole soul, and your whole strength. I'm an atheist - I am unable and unwilling to comply with this CoC. So yes, I would say that I am affected. Other well known religious folk in the foss world, such as Larry Wall, do not insist on this kind of exclusion.
- virtuexru 8y ago> I'm an atheist Don't worry! You can still use SQLite as God is infinite in his grace.
- exolymph 8y agoFrom the preface: "The entire rule is good and wholesome, and yet we make no enforcement of the more introspective aspects."
- runjake 8y agoGood news, the CoC is inclusive for you, with the following: "those who wish to participate" ... "are expected to conduct themselves in a manner that honors the overarching spirit of the rule, even if they disagree with specific details. Polite and professional discussion is always welcomed, from anyone." In other words, calm down.
- roguecoder 8y agoThe overarching spirit of The Rule of St. Benedict is service to Christ.
- sacado2 8y agoAre there any studies proving the effectiveness of CoCs ? Like, more active contributors, or a bigger market share, on projects after they adopted their CoC?
- feketegy 8y agoUSA != Rest of the World. Most problems are not issues, only for US devs as tech tend to be very US centric. I'm all for being civil online, but against everyone behaving defined by a template.
- runjake 8y agoRight in the first section, people: "However, those who wish to participate in the SQLite community, either by commenting on the public mailing lists or by contributing patches or suggestions or in any other way, are expected to conduct themselves in a manner that honors the overarching spirit of the rule, even if they disagree with specific details. Polite and professional discussion is always welcomed, from anyone." Edit: I am not religious at all.
- vor_ 8y agoIf the religious details won't be enforced, there's no reason for them to be in the CoC. This CoC exists in its current form solely because Richard Hipp is very religious.
- manicdee 8y agoDid you read the SQLite CoC? All of it? Hint: there is a clause pointing out that complete adherence is impossible and that the aim is to conduct oneself as much as possible by The Rule.
- drb91 8y ago@dang Why was this flagged?
- christophilus 8y agoI'd also like to know this. It may have been due to the ensuing flame-war in the discussion.
- Sacho 8y agoIsn't the flagging process automated, which would mean enough commenters flagged it? If there was a manual review of the flags, it would be nice to have at least a short comment from mods as to why they took action.
- drb91 8y agoAhh, entirely possible.
- roguecoder 8y agoI can't wait to see people get reported for merely being slightly afraid of hell rather than in actual dread of hell. Of course, since there's no enforcement mechanism this seems to be just an attempt to get credit with customers without actually caring about the question they were really asking.
- unfunco 8y agoBe not addicted to wine. Be not a great eater. Be not drowsy. Be not lazy. Be not a grumbler. Guess I can't use SQLite anymore…
- baud147258 8y agoThe CoC explicitly says that it only applies to Sqlite devs, not users. > This rule applies to SQLite developers, not to users of the SQLite code. Everyone is free to use the SQLite source code, object code, and/or documentation regardless of their opinion of and adherence to this rule. SQLite has been and continues to be completely free to everyone, without precondition.
- tgroshon 8y agoPeople being far too literal here about the "Love the Lord God". Your God is whatever you worship, and yes even the Atheist worships something. The commandment is two parts: (a) Jehovah (The Lord) should be your God and (b) your God should be the priority in your life. If you're Atheist or another faith then replace A by identifying "your God" and make it your priority. Live with purpose!
- stephenr 8y ago> Your God is whatever you worship, and yes even the Atheist worships something. You're just making up your own meanings for words. Yes, it can be said that a person can worship god or worship a person. But they're different concepts, and because the text is so specific about using the term "God", capital G, it's a reference to a specific named thing. This isn't like a kid saying he wants KFC and you pan fry some chicken. Stop pretending you know anything about atheists or anti-theists - the text is written by christians, and (like pretty much all monotheistic religions) they get pretty iffy when you try to dispute "one true god". > identifying "your God" and make it your priority. Live with purpose having purpose is almost the exact opposite of believing in a sky fairy to absolve yourself of guilt or blame.
- mscasts 8y ago> yes even the Atheist worships something Actually, no. It's the absence of it. It's like saying not smoking is a habit. It makes no sense.
- sleepybrett 8y agoHyperbolic bullshit solves everything, right?
- jmadsen 8y agoAm I the only person who was angered because I assumed they were doing a piss-take on a serious subject? Fuck's sake, people - learn how to explain yourselves in the context of your known readership.
- marceloboeira 8y ago"This code of conduct has proven its mettle in thousands of diverse communities for over 1,500 years" LOL
- mabynogy 8y agoWe've adopted the Saint Benedict rule too: http://dailyprog.org/rule/ http://dailyprog.org/rule/ We will adopt similar codes from different traditions of the world.
- Svoka 8y agoBesides enforcing religious beliefs with history of multiple genocides, this is bad CoC. It is toothless. What are procedures when someone in community breaks rules? There is no board to decide, no email to report, no process to take place. Do I pray to the Lord? This is pure trolling without merit.
- baud147258 8y agoI don't think it's trolling, but I agree that it's missing an email adress to report and what the process would be.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- zzo38computer 8y agoRule of St.Benedict is good, although much of it is not applicable to computer software development, some of it is only meaningful to Christians (I don't mean that it is bad or unwelcoming to non-Christians, but rather that it is meaningless), and some of it is less suitable outside of monastic orders. However, the preface corrects these problems (as many others have mentioned too), to make it suitable. I have no problem with the people if they are Christian or Jewish or Wiccan or atheist or whatever (although this is independent from if you are good at this computer programming; Knuth is Christian and he is one of the best of the computer programmers in my opinion). Also, I have no problem to use SQLite regardless of the CoC; I still think it is a good software.