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> The 'it just works' narrative applies to Microsoft better than any other company right now, and consumers are noticing. Can anyone who's recently transitione

by adpirz 8y ago

> The 'it just works' narrative applies to Microsoft better than any other company right now, and consumers are noticing. Can anyone who's recently transitioned to a Surface from a MacBook Pro / Air testify to the validity of this statement? I am dreading the day I need to upgrade my 2014 MBP, I'm just not compelled by the Touch Bar Macs and the tax they add to the new lineup, but I still hear horror stories about BSOD, bloatware, and the surprise update you can't back out of that I'd want to return to far less.

nagi2k4 8y ago
I use a MBP at work and just bought a Surface Book 2 to use for side projects. It's everything I want a MBP to be, good battery life (you can go almost a full day on a single charge), a touch screen that works exceedingly well, and function keys that are...keys. Using the stylus also changes your workflow, instead of screen shotting, opening in preview, and annotating, you just kind of draw on the screen and share the image. Only major downside I've run into is that there do not seem to be any native terminals for Windows that even come close to rivaling iTerm 2. Cmdr is decent, but has some weirdness around colors and ligatures; Hyper is also decent, but has some rough edges. Suspect that'll change as more devs start needing decent *nix environments to develop on.
- jamesgeck0 8y ago
  The terminal situation will hopefully improve shortly; Microsoft just recently overhauled their console API with a backwards compatible API that behaves much closer to how *NIX works.
- matthewaveryusa 8y ago
  not native, and assuming you use the terminal to shell into other devices -- Have you used mobaxterm? I think it's pretty great
- phowat 8y ago
  I second this, I haven't found a Windows terminal that comes close to being as comfortable to use as iTerm, or even Terminal.app for that matter.
  - rhinoceraptor 8y ago
    This is a bit of a terrible hack, but what I do is install an X server for Windows (I use VcXsrv, but there's a couple options), then from WSL launch Gnome terminal or whichever terminal emulator you like from Linux.
- redacted 8y ago
  Yeah, completely agree on my Surface Book being the MBP I wanted to buy Great hardware (including touchpad and keyboard), Win 10 and WSL have come a long way, and the touchscreen and stylus option became part of my workflow much quicker than I expected. Probably the best laptop I've ever owned, including the 2010-2015 era 15" MBPs. Regarding native terminals, I've had the best success with ConEmu set up to drop into WSL zsh by default. Easy to launch into cmd or powershell for Windows native stuff to boot.
- newusertoday 8y ago
  have you tried WSL https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10 https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10? i found it quite usable
  - giancarlostoro 8y ago
    This is all I use. I highly recommend it.
- nailer 8y ago
  Also moved from Mac to Surface, 2 years ago. Used iterm2, which I believe is one of the highest quality pieces of software ever made. Before that gnome terminal pn various Linux OSs. I regularly check out ConEmu, Hyper, Alacritty, etc for their current state on Windows (cmder isn't a terminal, but it includes ConEmu which is). Most have major bugs - see https://github.com/mikemaccana/powershell-profile/ https://github.com/mikemaccana/powershell-profile/ for links to specific unresolved issues. The current most stable modern Windows Terminal is absolutely: Terminus. https://eugeny.github.io/terminus/ https://eugeny.github.io/terminus/
  - wetpaws 8y ago
    Hyper was almost unusable due to electron performance, how does Terminus hold against it?
    - nailer 8y ago
      I spend 10 hours a day in Terminus on a Pentium M and it's fine.
  - kristiandupont 8y ago
    I might add vscode to this. You probably don't want it running solely as a terminal, but I've become used to it while developing and it's pretty nice on both Windows and Macos.
- supernintendo 8y ago
  ConEmu is pretty good - https://conemu.github.io https://conemu.github.io
- mey 8y ago
  Better terminals are coming to Windows. https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/commandline/2018/08/02/windows-command-line-introducing-the-windows-pseudo-console-conpty/ https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/commandline/2018/08/02/wind...
  - ofrzeta 8y ago
    It's hilarious to see Microsoft educate their audience about things Unix and Linux users have take for granted for a long time. Like leaving their parallel universe after all those decades. Also interesting to see their jumping through hoops to get there.
    - mey 8y ago
      What's wrong with providing context and why the Windows system doesn't historically work the same way?
      - ofrzeta 8y ago
        Who said wrong? I think it's funny to see. Loosen up downvoters. It's not like Unix was hidden somewhere for the last 50 years. It's just that Windows users didn't seem to bother. For what it's worth the OS course at my former university did cover Unix and NT (based on the Stallings book).
- zamalek 8y ago
  I'm building a terminal for Windows, part terminal envy and part learning Direct2D. It's currently bloody fast, renders minimally (so battery-friendly), has ligature and color font support and works in remote sessions (read: where there isn't a GPU available). It isn't yet a terminal, though - I'm still working on the VT parser. Could you take a minute to put a "+1" emoji on, say, your top three features: https://github.com/jcdickinson/tv/issues?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=label%3Ahn-vote+ https://github.com/jcdickinson/tv/issues?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=la...
- L0stLink 8y ago
  That is about to change https://github.com/jwilm/alacritty/pull/1374#issuecomment-426688869 https://github.com/jwilm/alacritty/pull/1374#issuecomment-42...
ProAm 8y ago
A master woodworker will buy a tool that is appropriate for the job he needs to complete. Buying a computer should be the same, don't buy a tool and try to find a job for it, realize what you need to accomplish and buy the tool that will help you get it done. One reason I do not buy apple is that they try to tell me how I should be using a computer, vs me buying a computer to do what I need/want to do with it. We've had extremely successful implementations of the surface pro with managers and executives, but not with developers.
- adpirz 8y ago
  I was a PC user long ago, and I moved to mac _because_ it felt like a tool built by a master woodworker (so to speak) as both a general user and a dev. When I first got any PC, I always had to do a fresh install of the OS to clean out the adware, regularly run some cleaner on the registry, and if it was a laptop, it was unpredictable what would happen if I closed the screen to name just a handful of sources of frustration. When I tried a mac, it really "just worked". You get it, you open it, and you're running. If you need to, close it, and pick up where you left off when you open it next. My current MBP is 4 years old and feels as snappy as day 1, and I've had no part in maintaining that. As a dev, I have a *nix environment right out of the box, which is incredibly helpful. I'm hoping Microsoft has finally relieved some of those frustrations and gotten these things right as well.
  - philliphaydon 8y ago
    We have wildly different experiences to OS X. It’s never “just worked” for me and it crashes often. I love my 12” MacBook but OS X just isn’t like it used to be. It used to be rock solid. Never crash. Always fast. But it really feels like it’s becoming windows xp. Windows 10 runs better on my 12 MacBook than OS X... I do miss my original retina MacBook tho. That was the last true good laptop Apple made.
    - adpirz 8y ago
      Sorry to hear that! I’ve definitely noticed a steady decline in the joy I experience with macOS with newer updates (i really miss Spaces), but it’s still head and shoulders above any experience I had with windows.
CodeCube 8y ago
This is all strictly in my experience ... but anecdotally, colleagues and friends have similar experiences. BSOD tended to be more in those halcyon days of a very diverse and disparate OEM ecosystem ... similar to what we have with Android nowadays. But the Dells of the world are pretty solid with both stability and support these days. This is of course not to mention the first party stuff (surface et al). Bloatware ... this was another thing that was exacerbated by the runaway OEM ecosystem. It was the wild west, and they loaded anything and everything on that hardware. Things are a lot more streamlined these days IMO. As for updates ... with the latest windows, you can schedule when the update happens. So just tell your PC to update when you're sleeping when the notification pops up. Updates will always be a thing, but this makes it easy to work around. And coming from a mac background, make sure you take a look at WSL (https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/about https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/about)
- template3 8y ago
  I’ve set that working hours thing for updates only for POS windows to completely ignore it.
  - CodeCube 8y ago
    I don't know ... maybe I reboot more often than you do? While I've definitely been annoyed by this in the past ... I feel like it hasn't happened or been a problem for a long while for me.
- mrec 8y ago
  I've been running the same non-BigOEM Win7 laptop at home for nearly 7 years now. Don't think I've seen a single BSOD in all that time. Windows/PC definitely has its annoyances, but I think this one is Of The Past now. The 2007-vintage MBP that preceded it suffered DVD drive failure, incurable sleep mode apnea, and at one point a meltdown that needed a complete motherboard replacement. Maybe I was just unlucky, but I was not at all inclined to try another one.
ENGNR 8y ago
Windows treats you like the product now, it's not your device. Try to defer an update (which takes forever) or dial back the information they get sent. It's just not going to happen Not to mention the constant battle with windows defender, which slows npm installs and webpack compiles to an absolute crawl due to the large number of filesystem requests, won't respect a whitelist, and re-enables itself every 4-24 hours depending on the phase of the moon
- 52-6F-62 8y ago
  Is this your experience with the Linux subsystem as well, or using Node through PowerShell or Command Prompt?
- thrower123 8y ago
  > Not to mention the constant battle with windows defender, which slows npm installs and webpack compiles to an absolute crawl due to the large number of filesystem requests, won't respect a whitelist, and re-enables itself every 4-24 hours depending on the phase of the moon I'm not a huge fan of Defender (although it is less like malware than most anti-viruses I've been forced to use), but npm and webpack are not blameless here. It's completely flipping absurd how many tens of thousands of files a medium size front-end project that uses these technologies spawns and kills every time it is rebuilt. I'm tempted to RAM-disk those folders, because even with fast SSDs, IO speed becomes a gating factor in my workflow.
  - com2kid 8y ago
    Quite a few years back, someone did a test compiling a large project on Windows, and on a Linux VM running on that same Windows box, all using the same compiler tool chain. The Linux VM compiled the project faster. :/ The conclusion was that NTFS may have issues with thousands upon thousands of small files. I'd really like to see an updated comparison, it'd be a fun set of benchmarks to run and investigate.
jdmichal 8y ago
I haven't used a MBP. However, I do own a Surface Book 2. I have never received a BSOD, and AFAIK it has never executed an update without my permission. BSOD was most commonly a driver panicking the kernel, and that doesn't happen often with MS hardware. It's also a lot less common now in general, because MS has hardened Windows against drivers panicking. As far as bloatware goes, it does have the crap like Candy Crush or whatever in my start menu, even though I have never touched that game on any platform. But there aren't really a lot of installed applications that you wouldn't expect to be present in an OS. If you do switch, take some time to learn PowerShell. Yes, it's not a -nix command line environment. It follows a completely different paradigm; it's object-oriented instead of text-oriented. But there is tremendous power there, if you learn to harness it. And if you really do need your -nix command line, you can install the Windows Subsystem for Linux.
- lawnchair_larry 8y ago
  Surface Pro 3, 4, and Surface Book were both BSODing like crazy for a long time after launch, out of the box. It was so bad that MS publicly apologized. Wireless problems as well.
maxxxxx 8y ago
We have had a lot of quality problems with the SP3. The device is not bad but I think MS needs a few more years ironing out a lot of little details. When I look at my Macbook it still goes strong after 5 years and I think that's because Apple has been in the hardware business for long enough to have some serious experience.
SkyPuncher 8y ago
So, I haven't transitions, rather I've augmented. I have a MBP and recently purchased a Surface Go as my secondary device. The Surface Go work fantastically, but I still run into a lot of UX/UI issues deeply entrenched into the Windows way of doing things. I think the most succinct example is setting management - particularly with bluetooth. Windows has this slide out with quick access to important setting like Wifi, Bluetooth, etc. Similar to Android's setting center. Long pressing the Bluetooth icons opens a secondary menu (basically treats it like a right click) with a singular option to take you to Bluetooth settings. On Android, a long press takes you directly to the Bluetooth settings because they know that's what you're looking to do. That's not a deal breaker, but it's certainly a clear example of how MS still hasn't stepped up it's UI game. ---- On the flip side, I'm finding all sorts of stupid issues with my Mac lately. It seems like every new OS upgrade brings a slew of new problems.
- solarkraft 8y ago
  It makes sense. I wouldn't want a right click to directly take me into a completely different context.
- ff7f00 8y ago
  I recently picked up the Surface Go and have been pretty bummed at how slow it is/feels. Have you not experienced any sluggishness with it?
  - SkyPuncher 8y ago
    I went into the purchase with very clear expectations about what I'd be using it for. It's not a full blown laptop (like it's Pro cousins), it's a tablet/netbook. I'll browse the web, do like document work, and watch Netflix on it. I won't be multitasking or doing anything crazy. For me, it's basically a digital notebook which is exactly what I want it to be.
UnoriginalGuy 8y ago
Honestly Microsoft's hardware has been a rocky road. I own a Surface Pro 3 and Surface Book, and in both cases they were unstable for almost six months until receiving firmware and driver updates. After they were patched they've been stable as a rock and "just work." But it has felt like Microsoft shipped half baked hardware. Plus while Windows 10 is stable, it feels like a moving target with large feature patches that also don't always feel fully baked. In-spite of the above I really like Microsoft's hardware and oddly would recommend it. It is definitely heading in a good direction, but isn't up to the height of Apple's "just works" period (which I don't believe we're still in).
amatecha 8y ago
IMHO, "it just works" has never applied to Windows and probably never will. The arcane UX changes for the sake of change, arbitrary removal/renaming of features/actions/applications... My favorite random "made it worse" change in Windows 10 is that with multiple monitors, your cursor gets stuck at the top/bottom corners between the two monitors, causing me to frequently click the Close "X" on the program/window I have open, because I was actually trying to click something on the monitor to the right. It doesn't matter if you were moving the mouse cursor very quickly. There's no registry flag for this, so the only known workaround is to run some 3rd-party application 24/7 which will take over the cursor position to nudge it over if you hit the edge.
darzu 8y ago
Actually I just switched from a Surface Book to a Macbook Pro and the mac is a huge improvement, both from a hardware and OS perspective. Biggest complaints about Surface Book: - Its battery management is horrible. I don't know if the hardware or the OS are more to blame for this. The worst part: I can pretty much expect that if I close the lid and open it some hours later the thing will be dead. Whereas the MacBook (so far) seems to be at the same percentage each time I close then open the lid. Other complaints: - Windows' split brain approach with fullscreen metro apps vs traditional windowed apps continues to annoy me. - The pencil is a gimmick to me since the apps (like OneNote) are very poorly designed for serious work with a stylus. - Windows is still considerably behind on multi-desktop workflows. - WSL still has some serious gaps and isn't as productive as Linux / OSX for *nix-style programming tasks. It's getting better though. - Windows update continues to be a bad experience. Whereas I actually look forward to macOS updates. (EDIT: My updates are managed by MSFT IT which is more aggressive than normal Windows Update so my experience might not be representative. But I'm not using the Insider or beta builds.) - For example: My Surface Book just updated and now it's stuck on a Windows 8 looking home screen and I haven't yet figured out how to get back to my "normal" desktop. - Windows continues to advertise "Bubble Witch 3" and "March of Empires" etc. in the home screen. This is unacceptable to me. Other observations: - I haven't noticed many BSODs with the Surface Book, so that's improved. - So far I actually like the touchbar, large trackpad, and keyboard. But I've long ago remapped my keyboard shortcuts to never depend on the fn keys. Esc is still easy to hit on the touch bar for me, in fact the hit-box is bigger than on the Surface Book. If you need it frequently, remap caps lock. - For MS hardware, there isn't bloatware unless you count MS software which I generally don't. (Disclosure: I work for Microsoft in the Azure org.)
- misterprime 8y ago
  Re advertisements in the start menu: They shouldn't be there in the first place, but you CAN disable them. https://www.groovypost.com/howto/turn-off-windows-10-start-menu-suggested-apps-ads/ https://www.groovypost.com/howto/turn-off-windows-10-start-m... Re multi-desktop workflows: It seems straight forward enough to me using Win+Ctrl+D for a new desktop then Win+Ctrl+left or right arrow to switch. Is it much better on the Mac? https://www.cnet.com/how-to/how-to-use-multiple-desktops-in-windows-10/ https://www.cnet.com/how-to/how-to-use-multiple-desktops-in-... Re Windows 8 looking home screen: is it in tablet mode? Try switching back to desktop mode. https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/enable-tablet-mode-windows-10 https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/enable-tablet-mode-window... Re split brain: I can't believe they haven't resolved this. How do they justify having two completely different settings interfaces for so long? I kinda forgave them for it in Windows 8, but we're several updates in to Windows 10 now... It's really a bad look. Re everything else: Thanks for the heads up. Good to know. Can I ask what your role is at Microsoft?
fosco 8y ago
I have a surface pro 3 right next to a x1carbon, often my wireless goes on on the surface and it is increasingly frustrating. That being said, I like the surface, not a fan of the keyboard but it is very portable and powerful for its size with great battery time. the keyboard is becoming more and more frustrating but I am a very picky person (I've had it for 2 years now) I run a couple vms at the same time to do some work as well. because of the keyboard I will likely get a dell latitude or xps series next if I need a new laptop. otherwise, I am sticking to my full desktop keyboard :-)
- lozf 8y ago
  Why not another Thinkpad? What don't you like about it?
  - fosco 8y ago
    I have used high end versions of both over the years and for some reason that I cannot explain I prefer the dell now. maybe its mental or about the oem spyware installations I am not entirely sure. I am generally satisfied with the x1carbon... just see my next laptop being a high end dell.
    - lozf 8y ago
      ok, thanks.
wetpaws 8y ago
I wonder how realistic is to install a Linux on SBP - I was considering buying it but I won't touch Win10 even with 6 feet pole.
- nwatson 8y ago
  Just use the WSL (Windows Subsystem for Linux). I was able to install Ubuntu 18.04, do "sudo apt update && sudo apt upgrade", install additional packages, all on Windows 10. I also managed to compile and run on Linux/Ubuntu/WSL the SageMath package (a complicated piece of Math software complete with Jupyter, Python 2.7, Python numpy, scipy, etc., packages, lots of C/C++/Fortran libraries, other math products/libraries, and an integrated web server (Django I believe)) ... and it ran just fine under Ubuntu-on-Windows just like native Ubuntu. It was as almost as easy as a macOS/Homebrew install.
  - seszett 8y ago
    What about the desktop environment? How does this work? I don't know anything about how WSL works, but what I know is that I don't want to use Ubuntu and apt, and I don't want to use Windows' window manager and desktop environment.
mikepurvis 8y ago
I'm on a 2014 MBP as well, and dreading the same transition. Until now I've been eyeing the Dell XP 13 as my next machine, but the Surface Laptop 2 also looks very compelling. Anyone know what the port story is? Looks to be USB-C-free, which I'm quite okay with, but I don't know if that's a MDP or Thunderbolt on there.
komali2 8y ago
Surface book can't draw enough power from its own brick to power its video card at full draw, so when doing graphics intensive stuff the battery drains. Other than that, it's a dream machine, minus that I hate working in windows. Usually will just work in a VM in virtual box with Debian. I can't get wsl to work well for me - for example, I'll be using git in there, but vscode will be open directly in windows, and get super confused with it's own git implementation. The reason I went with the surface like was stylus+touchpad. I'm a huge annotator and handwritten note taker. The better platform for this turned out to be thinkpad x1 yoga, cause I could just install Ubuntu natively. Edit: by the way, windows update has fucked me more than any human. That was a big reason to switch off for me. That and Candy crush.
kettlecorn 8y ago
I have a Mac now, use Windows regularly, and used a Surface a while back. I can't comment on modern Surface hardware, but I can comment on my feeling bouncing between ecosystems. I use Windows because it can do more: it can play games, it can do VR stuff, it can run almost any program. However I prefer using a Mac when I can because it feels like the people who made it actually care about attention to details and design (even when they fail). With Windows it feels like elegance and great design is never a core priority until it measurably begins to damage metrics. Popups will constantly be telling you about the newest feature with no thought for how that might be distracting you or interrupting your flow as a user. You can turn off most of these popups, but it's on a case by case basis and they're always introducing more. Something like "settings" in Windows is a convoluted mess of generations of settings pages, presumably kept this way under a "If it's not broke, don't fix it" mindset. Windows gradually is peeling control away from the user, and not in an Apple "we know best" kind of way. Things like the login screen default to an image chosen by Microsoft each day, which is actually kind of cool! The lame thing is that there are popups explaining the newest thing they want to advertise, or how to use some Windows feature. I virtually always ignore these, but they certainly don't make me excited about buying a $1,000+ Surface just to see ads on the lock screen of my premium device each day. Updates in Windows have lately felt as if you're dealing with a pushy negotiator and you never know what the terms you agreed to actually are. The updates feel like they serve Microsoft's purposes, not yours, if only because of how they try to trick you into agreeing to them. Meanwhile the language of the updates attempts to sound friendly, but it comes across as insultingly disingenuous because of the actual behavior of the UX. They've slowly improved this experience, but only after countless negative news articles. And then the computer comes with a bunch of bloatware preinstalled. Sure it's not as bad as buying a laptop used to be, but it's discouraging because Surfaces are meant to feel like premium products. Now Windows 10 comes with a bunch of lame games installed and by default put on your start menu. You have to cleanup the start menu when you get the computer. There are dozens of further examples I can cite, but what I'm getting at here is Windows as an operating system doesn't feel like a personal elegant operating system to be paired with a premium device.
giancarlostoro 8y ago
I have a Macbook Air and got the Surface Book 2 and it has been great. Amazing battery life. I can leave it sitting around, come back and pick up where I've left off at. I can also use it as a tablet, I use it the most to watch Netflix and Hulu. I can also download Nextflix shows and movies for offline consumption due to them being apps.
gaius 8y ago
Can anyone who's recently transitioned to a Surface from a MacBook Pro / Air testify to the validity of this statement? Yes, I made the jump a few months ago and am very happy. I would even say the whole Surface range is a glimpse of what Macs would be if Jobs was still alive. WSL is brilliant, totally replaced VMs in my use cases. 3:2 screen as well.
leemuro 8y ago
I switched from a Macbook Pro to a Surface Book a few years back. It was, and probably will remain, the worst technical decision I've made. The hardware, drivers, and dock were had death by 1000 cut type glitches. Additionally, I (and a few others who owned one) experienced out of warranty hardware failures. For me it was a defective latch/hinge. Other's had the screen peel off the front (yes I said peel off). I know they've since improved things, but I'm still not really impressed. I sold it and switched back to a Macbook Pro this past year and am not looking back.
cptskippy 8y ago
> I still hear horror stories about BSOD, bloatware, and the surprise update you can't back out of that I'd want to return to far less. Everyone's experience is going to be different because Windows doesn't benefit from the vertical integration that MacOS does. Bloatware is 100% an OEM issue and so Microsoft's Surface line doesn't suffer since MS is the OEM. There is a "Signature Edition" of Windows that some OEMs will put on systems that's bloatware free however it's not widely deployed because OEMs actually receive money to preinstall bloatware. If you want the SE edition you'll end up paying more and have limited options. I honestly can't remember the last time I got a BSOD on any of the Win7 based or Win10 based PCs or Servers I use. Again that's highly dependent on a number of factors like hardware, drivers, and even the cleanliness of the PC both on software and hardware fronts. The surprise update you can't back out of is a conflation of a couple things and sort of true but also false. The update policy for Windows 10 has changed a lot since it's inception but the crux is that a lot of people are upset that updates are automatic and not easily/entirely disabled. As of today Windows 10 will automatically install updates and will reboot itself when necessary. Reboots aren't random, you define active hours where a reboot will 100% not occur. Reboots will not occur without first showing a notification and giving you the opportunity to delay/postpone the reboot. A reboot can be delayed for up to 5 days and you can actually schedule a specific day/time for the reboot to occur. There is a setting to enable enhanced notifications around updates and scheduled reboots. You can pause updates for 35 days after which a forced update occurs. It is complicated if you want it to be but the default settings work well. The only setting I change is to tell it to update other software on my system in addition to Windows. I've never had a PC reboot on me unexpectedly or disruptively, I have a CAD/CAM box that I RDC into and it's evident that it has rebooted itself but it's not disruptive to my workflow. My only real gripe is that my Laptop will become a lap warmer that sounds like a vacuum randomly when updates are installed.
- rhinoceraptor 8y ago
  My thinkpad BSODs regularly from the horrible AV the IT department uses. All I want is anything that isn't Windows...
  - cptskippy 8y ago
OKWhatNow 8y ago
> I am dreading the day I need to upgrade my 2014 MBP Ditto, but with a 2015 MBP I'd buy another used 2015 MBP before I bought anything in the current lineup
pavlov 8y ago
After 16 years on MacBook Pros (and PowerBooks before that), I bought a Surface Book 2 earlier this year because the 2016 MBP 15" was such a lemon for me. Like others have said, the Surface Book hardware is what I wish the 2016 MBP had been. I'm perfectly happy with the OS as well. Haven't seen BSODs or forced bloatware. My new work-provided MacBook Pro is more fickle with occasional wakeup problems. Battery life on the Surface Book 2 feels on par or better than the MBP. The Linux subsystem works well enough for me. Today you can run unmodified Ubuntu binaries on Windows with zero effort -- this has been pretty mind-blowing because my mental image of Windows is mostly from XP and before. But as some others also mentioned, Win32 terminal options are not that great. Terminals are still stuck in the old Windows days: tiny toolbars, lots of options in endless GUI menus, weird usability howlers hiding in the corners. The feel of running those Linux binaries isn't 100% up there with a Mac, even though I prefer Linux to Darwin. Here's a business opportunity for someone — a Windows terminal for us Mac refugees?
Bhilai 8y ago
I used a Surface Book 2 for about an year and my experience was not great. Three main issues ruined my experience of what seemed like pretty solid hardware: - Almost every time my Surface failed to wake up from sleep and I had to force restart it. - Erratic Wifi problems. Windows 10 would fail to connect to Wifi sometimes after a restart and I had to disable and re-enable adapter every time. - External Display always seemed to hazy and had scaling issues. I have to admit I never tried hard enough to see if it needed a special display driver my external Samsung curved monitor.
SloopJon 8y ago
I recently bought a Huawei (yeah, I know) MateBook X Pro, having used Mac laptops almost exclusively since the iBook G4. My only complaint with the hardware (drivers?) is that two-finger scrolling on the otherwise decent trackpad isn't nearly as smooth as on a MacBook. My biggest problem is actually connecting mail, calendar, and contacts to Google. Whereas it works out of the box on my Macs, I have not been able to get them working in Windows 10. I've fiddled with 2-Step Verification and Allow less secure apps. I can get mail working over IMAP by enabling 2-Step Verification and using an application-specific password, but I've had no luck with calendar or contacts. I presume I would have the same problem with Microsoft hardware.
- voidwtf 8y ago
  I recently got a Huawei Matebook X Pro for work and I love the thing. The touch pad scrolling isn't smooth as the Apple one like you mentioned, but the tracking is great otherwise and gestures work well. Keyboard is nice, 3k screen is nice, usb-c + usb-a is nice, sd slot, etc... It's stupid amounts of light and cheap for the amount of power and features. I think they'd be a lot more popular if they advertised better. My only complaints are the camera placement and the the cooling. I like that the screen is so thin and has almost no bezel so I understand why they put the camera in the keyboard, it's just impractical for Skype which is at odds with the amazing call audio quality from the built in mics (yes, multiple, 4 of them). The cooling also leaves a bit to be desired, though http://bradshacks.com/matebook-x-pro-throttling/ http://bradshacks.com/matebook-x-pro-throttling/ has some good info on augmenting that if you feel like doing a little light hacking. I don't think it's any worse than the latest macbooks, I just think it could be better in both cases.
- Wintereise 8y ago
  I've got 2fa on, mail and calendar on Windows 10 work flawlessly. It had me run through the standard Google OAuth process for both, didn't need an app specific password. No experience with contacts however, I don't use it. Though, I just turned it on and it automatically offered to import from both my Google and MSFT account (which would seem that the logins are global instead of being app specific).
Birch-san 8y ago
I have the original Surface Pro (2013). # Software problems: - Windows frequently has bad touchscreen support. I've encountered many fullscreen games where a click can only be sent via a double-touch or double-pen-tap. It's phenomenally hard to click through text in story-driven games. - The machine does not stay asleep at all (that or I've misunderstood what the lock button is intended for). # Hardware problems: - The machine electrocutes you whilst charging. # Age / software / hardware problems: - Recently (I think following Win10 April 2018 Creators Update), it has been BSoDing extremely frequently. i.e. within 5 minutes of startup, during basic usage.
jki275 8y ago
It's just not that way with the Surface lineup, unfortunately. The trackpad is not quite good enough, the hardware glitches, the video card crashes, etc etc etc. All the little issues that you almost never see from Macs. I tried to like my Surface Book, but I went back to Mac. I hate the touchbar, but otherwise it's what I need.
Svoka 8y ago
I was in your position, but I bought new MacBook Pro 13". After some resistance I actually love it. I have to go back to my old laptop because some old work infrastructure is there, I really don't like it anymore. I actually like & use touch bar. This is my personal experience, I didn't think I have it. And in comparison, I have Windows installed on it too via bootcamp. I used it for 4-8 hours a day for last months for doing work. It's just awful. Working on macOS for many years really made me forget all the little things we're getting for granted.
DonbunEf7 8y ago
Windows still has the following annoyances 1. Advertisements for One Drive storage in windows explorer. 2. Advertisements for Candy Crush and other games in start menu. 3. Advertisements and nag prompts to try Edge browser when you attempt to download chrome or switch your default browser. 4. Collects lots of telemetry. Yes, most of the above issues can be solved by digging into the settings and turning them off but they shouldn't exist in the first place.
- jamesgeck0 8y ago
  > Advertisements and nag prompts to try Edge browser when you attempt to download chrome That was in a preview build and was rolled back after internet outrage. > or switch your default browser Edge just says "Recommended for Windows 10" next to it's entry in the list of installed browsers.

by adpirz 8y ago

nagi2k4 8y ago

I use a MBP at work and just bought a Surface Book 2 to use for side projects. It's everything I want a MBP to be, good battery life (you can go almost a full day on a single charge), a touch screen that works exceedingly well, and function keys that are...keys. Using the stylus also changes your workflow, instead of screen shotting, opening in preview, and annotating, you just kind of draw on the screen and share the image. Only major downside I've run into is that there do not seem to be any native terminals for Windows that even come close to rivaling iTerm 2. Cmdr is decent, but has some weirdness around colors and ligatures; Hyper is also decent, but has some rough edges. Suspect that'll change as more devs start needing decent *nix environments to develop on.

jamesgeck0 8y ago
The terminal situation will hopefully improve shortly; Microsoft just recently overhauled their console API with a backwards compatible API that behaves much closer to how *NIX works.
matthewaveryusa 8y ago
not native, and assuming you use the terminal to shell into other devices -- Have you used mobaxterm? I think it's pretty great
phowat 8y ago
I second this, I haven't found a Windows terminal that comes close to being as comfortable to use as iTerm, or even Terminal.app for that matter.
- rhinoceraptor 8y ago
  This is a bit of a terrible hack, but what I do is install an X server for Windows (I use VcXsrv, but there's a couple options), then from WSL launch Gnome terminal or whichever terminal emulator you like from Linux.
redacted 8y ago
Yeah, completely agree on my Surface Book being the MBP I wanted to buy Great hardware (including touchpad and keyboard), Win 10 and WSL have come a long way, and the touchscreen and stylus option became part of my workflow much quicker than I expected. Probably the best laptop I've ever owned, including the 2010-2015 era 15" MBPs. Regarding native terminals, I've had the best success with ConEmu set up to drop into WSL zsh by default. Easy to launch into cmd or powershell for Windows native stuff to boot.
newusertoday 8y ago
have you tried WSL https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10 https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10? i found it quite usable
- giancarlostoro 8y ago
  This is all I use. I highly recommend it.
nailer 8y ago
Also moved from Mac to Surface, 2 years ago. Used iterm2, which I believe is one of the highest quality pieces of software ever made. Before that gnome terminal pn various Linux OSs. I regularly check out ConEmu, Hyper, Alacritty, etc for their current state on Windows (cmder isn't a terminal, but it includes ConEmu which is). Most have major bugs - see https://github.com/mikemaccana/powershell-profile/ https://github.com/mikemaccana/powershell-profile/ for links to specific unresolved issues. The current most stable modern Windows Terminal is absolutely: Terminus. https://eugeny.github.io/terminus/ https://eugeny.github.io/terminus/
- wetpaws 8y ago
  Hyper was almost unusable due to electron performance, how does Terminus hold against it?
  - nailer 8y ago
    I spend 10 hours a day in Terminus on a Pentium M and it's fine.
- kristiandupont 8y ago
  I might add vscode to this. You probably don't want it running solely as a terminal, but I've become used to it while developing and it's pretty nice on both Windows and Macos.
supernintendo 8y ago
ConEmu is pretty good - https://conemu.github.io https://conemu.github.io
mey 8y ago
Better terminals are coming to Windows. https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/commandline/2018/08/02/windows-command-line-introducing-the-windows-pseudo-console-conpty/ https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/commandline/2018/08/02/wind...
- ofrzeta 8y ago
  It's hilarious to see Microsoft educate their audience about things Unix and Linux users have take for granted for a long time. Like leaving their parallel universe after all those decades. Also interesting to see their jumping through hoops to get there.
  - mey 8y ago
    What's wrong with providing context and why the Windows system doesn't historically work the same way?
    - ofrzeta 8y ago
      Who said wrong? I think it's funny to see. Loosen up downvoters. It's not like Unix was hidden somewhere for the last 50 years. It's just that Windows users didn't seem to bother. For what it's worth the OS course at my former university did cover Unix and NT (based on the Stallings book).
zamalek 8y ago
I'm building a terminal for Windows, part terminal envy and part learning Direct2D. It's currently bloody fast, renders minimally (so battery-friendly), has ligature and color font support and works in remote sessions (read: where there isn't a GPU available). It isn't yet a terminal, though - I'm still working on the VT parser. Could you take a minute to put a "+1" emoji on, say, your top three features: https://github.com/jcdickinson/tv/issues?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=label%3Ahn-vote+ https://github.com/jcdickinson/tv/issues?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=la...
L0stLink 8y ago
That is about to change https://github.com/jwilm/alacritty/pull/1374#issuecomment-426688869 https://github.com/jwilm/alacritty/pull/1374#issuecomment-42...

ProAm 8y ago

A master woodworker will buy a tool that is appropriate for the job he needs to complete. Buying a computer should be the same, don't buy a tool and try to find a job for it, realize what you need to accomplish and buy the tool that will help you get it done. One reason I do not buy apple is that they try to tell me how I should be using a computer, vs me buying a computer to do what I need/want to do with it. We've had extremely successful implementations of the surface pro with managers and executives, but not with developers.

adpirz 8y ago
I was a PC user long ago, and I moved to mac _because_ it felt like a tool built by a master woodworker (so to speak) as both a general user and a dev. When I first got any PC, I always had to do a fresh install of the OS to clean out the adware, regularly run some cleaner on the registry, and if it was a laptop, it was unpredictable what would happen if I closed the screen to name just a handful of sources of frustration. When I tried a mac, it really "just worked". You get it, you open it, and you're running. If you need to, close it, and pick up where you left off when you open it next. My current MBP is 4 years old and feels as snappy as day 1, and I've had no part in maintaining that. As a dev, I have a *nix environment right out of the box, which is incredibly helpful. I'm hoping Microsoft has finally relieved some of those frustrations and gotten these things right as well.
- philliphaydon 8y ago
  We have wildly different experiences to OS X. It’s never “just worked” for me and it crashes often. I love my 12” MacBook but OS X just isn’t like it used to be. It used to be rock solid. Never crash. Always fast. But it really feels like it’s becoming windows xp. Windows 10 runs better on my 12 MacBook than OS X... I do miss my original retina MacBook tho. That was the last true good laptop Apple made.
  - adpirz 8y ago
    Sorry to hear that! I’ve definitely noticed a steady decline in the joy I experience with macOS with newer updates (i really miss Spaces), but it’s still head and shoulders above any experience I had with windows.

CodeCube 8y ago

This is all strictly in my experience ... but anecdotally, colleagues and friends have similar experiences. BSOD tended to be more in those halcyon days of a very diverse and disparate OEM ecosystem ... similar to what we have with Android nowadays. But the Dells of the world are pretty solid with both stability and support these days. This is of course not to mention the first party stuff (surface et al). Bloatware ... this was another thing that was exacerbated by the runaway OEM ecosystem. It was the wild west, and they loaded anything and everything on that hardware. Things are a lot more streamlined these days IMO. As for updates ... with the latest windows, you can schedule when the update happens. So just tell your PC to update when you're sleeping when the notification pops up. Updates will always be a thing, but this makes it easy to work around. And coming from a mac background, make sure you take a look at WSL (https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/about https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/about)

template3 8y ago
I’ve set that working hours thing for updates only for POS windows to completely ignore it.
- CodeCube 8y ago
  I don't know ... maybe I reboot more often than you do? While I've definitely been annoyed by this in the past ... I feel like it hasn't happened or been a problem for a long while for me.
mrec 8y ago
I've been running the same non-BigOEM Win7 laptop at home for nearly 7 years now. Don't think I've seen a single BSOD in all that time. Windows/PC definitely has its annoyances, but I think this one is Of The Past now. The 2007-vintage MBP that preceded it suffered DVD drive failure, incurable sleep mode apnea, and at one point a meltdown that needed a complete motherboard replacement. Maybe I was just unlucky, but I was not at all inclined to try another one.

ENGNR 8y ago

Windows treats you like the product now, it's not your device. Try to defer an update (which takes forever) or dial back the information they get sent. It's just not going to happen Not to mention the constant battle with windows defender, which slows npm installs and webpack compiles to an absolute crawl due to the large number of filesystem requests, won't respect a whitelist, and re-enables itself every 4-24 hours depending on the phase of the moon

52-6F-62 8y ago
Is this your experience with the Linux subsystem as well, or using Node through PowerShell or Command Prompt?
thrower123 8y ago
> Not to mention the constant battle with windows defender, which slows npm installs and webpack compiles to an absolute crawl due to the large number of filesystem requests, won't respect a whitelist, and re-enables itself every 4-24 hours depending on the phase of the moon I'm not a huge fan of Defender (although it is less like malware than most anti-viruses I've been forced to use), but npm and webpack are not blameless here. It's completely flipping absurd how many tens of thousands of files a medium size front-end project that uses these technologies spawns and kills every time it is rebuilt. I'm tempted to RAM-disk those folders, because even with fast SSDs, IO speed becomes a gating factor in my workflow.
- com2kid 8y ago
  Quite a few years back, someone did a test compiling a large project on Windows, and on a Linux VM running on that same Windows box, all using the same compiler tool chain. The Linux VM compiled the project faster. :/ The conclusion was that NTFS may have issues with thousands upon thousands of small files. I'd really like to see an updated comparison, it'd be a fun set of benchmarks to run and investigate.

jdmichal 8y ago

I haven't used a MBP. However, I do own a Surface Book 2. I have never received a BSOD, and AFAIK it has never executed an update without my permission. BSOD was most commonly a driver panicking the kernel, and that doesn't happen often with MS hardware. It's also a lot less common now in general, because MS has hardened Windows against drivers panicking. As far as bloatware goes, it does have the crap like Candy Crush or whatever in my start menu, even though I have never touched that game on any platform. But there aren't really a lot of installed applications that you wouldn't expect to be present in an OS. If you do switch, take some time to learn PowerShell. Yes, it's not a -nix command line environment. It follows a completely different paradigm; it's object-oriented instead of text-oriented. But there is tremendous power there, if you learn to harness it. And if you really do need your -nix command line, you can install the Windows Subsystem for Linux.

lawnchair_larry 8y ago
Surface Pro 3, 4, and Surface Book were both BSODing like crazy for a long time after launch, out of the box. It was so bad that MS publicly apologized. Wireless problems as well.

maxxxxx 8y ago

We have had a lot of quality problems with the SP3. The device is not bad but I think MS needs a few more years ironing out a lot of little details. When I look at my Macbook it still goes strong after 5 years and I think that's because Apple has been in the hardware business for long enough to have some serious experience.

SkyPuncher 8y ago

So, I haven't transitions, rather I've augmented. I have a MBP and recently purchased a Surface Go as my secondary device. The Surface Go work fantastically, but I still run into a lot of UX/UI issues deeply entrenched into the Windows way of doing things. I think the most succinct example is setting management - particularly with bluetooth. Windows has this slide out with quick access to important setting like Wifi, Bluetooth, etc. Similar to Android's setting center. Long pressing the Bluetooth icons opens a secondary menu (basically treats it like a right click) with a singular option to take you to Bluetooth settings. On Android, a long press takes you directly to the Bluetooth settings because they know that's what you're looking to do. That's not a deal breaker, but it's certainly a clear example of how MS still hasn't stepped up it's UI game. ---- On the flip side, I'm finding all sorts of stupid issues with my Mac lately. It seems like every new OS upgrade brings a slew of new problems.

solarkraft 8y ago
It makes sense. I wouldn't want a right click to directly take me into a completely different context.
ff7f00 8y ago
I recently picked up the Surface Go and have been pretty bummed at how slow it is/feels. Have you not experienced any sluggishness with it?
- SkyPuncher 8y ago
  I went into the purchase with very clear expectations about what I'd be using it for. It's not a full blown laptop (like it's Pro cousins), it's a tablet/netbook. I'll browse the web, do like document work, and watch Netflix on it. I won't be multitasking or doing anything crazy. For me, it's basically a digital notebook which is exactly what I want it to be.

UnoriginalGuy 8y ago

Honestly Microsoft's hardware has been a rocky road. I own a Surface Pro 3 and Surface Book, and in both cases they were unstable for almost six months until receiving firmware and driver updates. After they were patched they've been stable as a rock and "just work." But it has felt like Microsoft shipped half baked hardware. Plus while Windows 10 is stable, it feels like a moving target with large feature patches that also don't always feel fully baked. In-spite of the above I really like Microsoft's hardware and oddly would recommend it. It is definitely heading in a good direction, but isn't up to the height of Apple's "just works" period (which I don't believe we're still in).

amatecha 8y ago

IMHO, "it just works" has never applied to Windows and probably never will. The arcane UX changes for the sake of change, arbitrary removal/renaming of features/actions/applications... My favorite random "made it worse" change in Windows 10 is that with multiple monitors, your cursor gets stuck at the top/bottom corners between the two monitors, causing me to frequently click the Close "X" on the program/window I have open, because I was actually trying to click something on the monitor to the right. It doesn't matter if you were moving the mouse cursor very quickly. There's no registry flag for this, so the only known workaround is to run some 3rd-party application 24/7 which will take over the cursor position to nudge it over if you hit the edge.

darzu 8y ago

Actually I just switched from a Surface Book to a Macbook Pro and the mac is a huge improvement, both from a hardware and OS perspective. Biggest complaints about Surface Book: - Its battery management is horrible. I don't know if the hardware or the OS are more to blame for this. The worst part: I can pretty much expect that if I close the lid and open it some hours later the thing will be dead. Whereas the MacBook (so far) seems to be at the same percentage each time I close then open the lid. Other complaints: - Windows' split brain approach with fullscreen metro apps vs traditional windowed apps continues to annoy me. - The pencil is a gimmick to me since the apps (like OneNote) are very poorly designed for serious work with a stylus. - Windows is still considerably behind on multi-desktop workflows. - WSL still has some serious gaps and isn't as productive as Linux / OSX for *nix-style programming tasks. It's getting better though. - Windows update continues to be a bad experience. Whereas I actually look forward to macOS updates. (EDIT: My updates are managed by MSFT IT which is more aggressive than normal Windows Update so my experience might not be representative. But I'm not using the Insider or beta builds.) - For example: My Surface Book just updated and now it's stuck on a Windows 8 looking home screen and I haven't yet figured out how to get back to my "normal" desktop. - Windows continues to advertise "Bubble Witch 3" and "March of Empires" etc. in the home screen. This is unacceptable to me. Other observations: - I haven't noticed many BSODs with the Surface Book, so that's improved. - So far I actually like the touchbar, large trackpad, and keyboard. But I've long ago remapped my keyboard shortcuts to never depend on the fn keys. Esc is still easy to hit on the touch bar for me, in fact the hit-box is bigger than on the Surface Book. If you need it frequently, remap caps lock. - For MS hardware, there isn't bloatware unless you count MS software which I generally don't. (Disclosure: I work for Microsoft in the Azure org.)

misterprime 8y ago
Re advertisements in the start menu: They shouldn't be there in the first place, but you CAN disable them. https://www.groovypost.com/howto/turn-off-windows-10-start-menu-suggested-apps-ads/ https://www.groovypost.com/howto/turn-off-windows-10-start-m... Re multi-desktop workflows: It seems straight forward enough to me using Win+Ctrl+D for a new desktop then Win+Ctrl+left or right arrow to switch. Is it much better on the Mac? https://www.cnet.com/how-to/how-to-use-multiple-desktops-in-windows-10/ https://www.cnet.com/how-to/how-to-use-multiple-desktops-in-... Re Windows 8 looking home screen: is it in tablet mode? Try switching back to desktop mode. https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/enable-tablet-mode-windows-10 https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/enable-tablet-mode-window... Re split brain: I can't believe they haven't resolved this. How do they justify having two completely different settings interfaces for so long? I kinda forgave them for it in Windows 8, but we're several updates in to Windows 10 now... It's really a bad look. Re everything else: Thanks for the heads up. Good to know. Can I ask what your role is at Microsoft?

fosco 8y ago

I have a surface pro 3 right next to a x1carbon, often my wireless goes on on the surface and it is increasingly frustrating. That being said, I like the surface, not a fan of the keyboard but it is very portable and powerful for its size with great battery time. the keyboard is becoming more and more frustrating but I am a very picky person (I've had it for 2 years now) I run a couple vms at the same time to do some work as well. because of the keyboard I will likely get a dell latitude or xps series next if I need a new laptop. otherwise, I am sticking to my full desktop keyboard :-)

lozf 8y ago
Why not another Thinkpad? What don't you like about it?
- fosco 8y ago
  I have used high end versions of both over the years and for some reason that I cannot explain I prefer the dell now. maybe its mental or about the oem spyware installations I am not entirely sure. I am generally satisfied with the x1carbon... just see my next laptop being a high end dell.
  - lozf 8y ago
    ok, thanks.

wetpaws 8y ago

I wonder how realistic is to install a Linux on SBP - I was considering buying it but I won't touch Win10 even with 6 feet pole.

nwatson 8y ago
Just use the WSL (Windows Subsystem for Linux). I was able to install Ubuntu 18.04, do "sudo apt update && sudo apt upgrade", install additional packages, all on Windows 10. I also managed to compile and run on Linux/Ubuntu/WSL the SageMath package (a complicated piece of Math software complete with Jupyter, Python 2.7, Python numpy, scipy, etc., packages, lots of C/C++/Fortran libraries, other math products/libraries, and an integrated web server (Django I believe)) ... and it ran just fine under Ubuntu-on-Windows just like native Ubuntu. It was as almost as easy as a macOS/Homebrew install.
- seszett 8y ago
  What about the desktop environment? How does this work? I don't know anything about how WSL works, but what I know is that I don't want to use Ubuntu and apt, and I don't want to use Windows' window manager and desktop environment.

mikepurvis 8y ago

I'm on a 2014 MBP as well, and dreading the same transition. Until now I've been eyeing the Dell XP 13 as my next machine, but the Surface Laptop 2 also looks very compelling. Anyone know what the port story is? Looks to be USB-C-free, which I'm quite okay with, but I don't know if that's a MDP or Thunderbolt on there.

komali2 8y ago

Surface book can't draw enough power from its own brick to power its video card at full draw, so when doing graphics intensive stuff the battery drains. Other than that, it's a dream machine, minus that I hate working in windows. Usually will just work in a VM in virtual box with Debian. I can't get wsl to work well for me - for example, I'll be using git in there, but vscode will be open directly in windows, and get super confused with it's own git implementation. The reason I went with the surface like was stylus+touchpad. I'm a huge annotator and handwritten note taker. The better platform for this turned out to be thinkpad x1 yoga, cause I could just install Ubuntu natively. Edit: by the way, windows update has fucked me more than any human. That was a big reason to switch off for me. That and Candy crush.

kettlecorn 8y ago

I have a Mac now, use Windows regularly, and used a Surface a while back. I can't comment on modern Surface hardware, but I can comment on my feeling bouncing between ecosystems. I use Windows because it can do more: it can play games, it can do VR stuff, it can run almost any program. However I prefer using a Mac when I can because it feels like the people who made it actually care about attention to details and design (even when they fail). With Windows it feels like elegance and great design is never a core priority until it measurably begins to damage metrics. Popups will constantly be telling you about the newest feature with no thought for how that might be distracting you or interrupting your flow as a user. You can turn off most of these popups, but it's on a case by case basis and they're always introducing more. Something like "settings" in Windows is a convoluted mess of generations of settings pages, presumably kept this way under a "If it's not broke, don't fix it" mindset. Windows gradually is peeling control away from the user, and not in an Apple "we know best" kind of way. Things like the login screen default to an image chosen by Microsoft each day, which is actually kind of cool! The lame thing is that there are popups explaining the newest thing they want to advertise, or how to use some Windows feature. I virtually always ignore these, but they certainly don't make me excited about buying a $1,000+ Surface just to see ads on the lock screen of my premium device each day. Updates in Windows have lately felt as if you're dealing with a pushy negotiator and you never know what the terms you agreed to actually are. The updates feel like they serve Microsoft's purposes, not yours, if only because of how they try to trick you into agreeing to them. Meanwhile the language of the updates attempts to sound friendly, but it comes across as insultingly disingenuous because of the actual behavior of the UX. They've slowly improved this experience, but only after countless negative news articles. And then the computer comes with a bunch of bloatware preinstalled. Sure it's not as bad as buying a laptop used to be, but it's discouraging because Surfaces are meant to feel like premium products. Now Windows 10 comes with a bunch of lame games installed and by default put on your start menu. You have to cleanup the start menu when you get the computer. There are dozens of further examples I can cite, but what I'm getting at here is Windows as an operating system doesn't feel like a personal elegant operating system to be paired with a premium device.

giancarlostoro 8y ago

I have a Macbook Air and got the Surface Book 2 and it has been great. Amazing battery life. I can leave it sitting around, come back and pick up where I've left off at. I can also use it as a tablet, I use it the most to watch Netflix and Hulu. I can also download Nextflix shows and movies for offline consumption due to them being apps.

gaius 8y ago

Can anyone who's recently transitioned to a Surface from a MacBook Pro / Air testify to the validity of this statement? Yes, I made the jump a few months ago and am very happy. I would even say the whole Surface range is a glimpse of what Macs would be if Jobs was still alive. WSL is brilliant, totally replaced VMs in my use cases. 3:2 screen as well.

leemuro 8y ago

I switched from a Macbook Pro to a Surface Book a few years back. It was, and probably will remain, the worst technical decision I've made. The hardware, drivers, and dock were had death by 1000 cut type glitches. Additionally, I (and a few others who owned one) experienced out of warranty hardware failures. For me it was a defective latch/hinge. Other's had the screen peel off the front (yes I said peel off). I know they've since improved things, but I'm still not really impressed. I sold it and switched back to a Macbook Pro this past year and am not looking back.

cptskippy 8y ago

> I still hear horror stories about BSOD, bloatware, and the surprise update you can't back out of that I'd want to return to far less. Everyone's experience is going to be different because Windows doesn't benefit from the vertical integration that MacOS does. Bloatware is 100% an OEM issue and so Microsoft's Surface line doesn't suffer since MS is the OEM. There is a "Signature Edition" of Windows that some OEMs will put on systems that's bloatware free however it's not widely deployed because OEMs actually receive money to preinstall bloatware. If you want the SE edition you'll end up paying more and have limited options. I honestly can't remember the last time I got a BSOD on any of the Win7 based or Win10 based PCs or Servers I use. Again that's highly dependent on a number of factors like hardware, drivers, and even the cleanliness of the PC both on software and hardware fronts. The surprise update you can't back out of is a conflation of a couple things and sort of true but also false. The update policy for Windows 10 has changed a lot since it's inception but the crux is that a lot of people are upset that updates are automatic and not easily/entirely disabled. As of today Windows 10 will automatically install updates and will reboot itself when necessary. Reboots aren't random, you define active hours where a reboot will 100% not occur. Reboots will not occur without first showing a notification and giving you the opportunity to delay/postpone the reboot. A reboot can be delayed for up to 5 days and you can actually schedule a specific day/time for the reboot to occur. There is a setting to enable enhanced notifications around updates and scheduled reboots. You can pause updates for 35 days after which a forced update occurs. It is complicated if you want it to be but the default settings work well. The only setting I change is to tell it to update other software on my system in addition to Windows. I've never had a PC reboot on me unexpectedly or disruptively, I have a CAD/CAM box that I RDC into and it's evident that it has rebooted itself but it's not disruptive to my workflow. My only real gripe is that my Laptop will become a lap warmer that sounds like a vacuum randomly when updates are installed.

rhinoceraptor 8y ago
My thinkpad BSODs regularly from the horrible AV the IT department uses. All I want is anything that isn't Windows...
- cptskippy 8y ago

OKWhatNow 8y ago

> I am dreading the day I need to upgrade my 2014 MBP Ditto, but with a 2015 MBP I'd buy another used 2015 MBP before I bought anything in the current lineup

pavlov 8y ago

After 16 years on MacBook Pros (and PowerBooks before that), I bought a Surface Book 2 earlier this year because the 2016 MBP 15" was such a lemon for me. Like others have said, the Surface Book hardware is what I wish the 2016 MBP had been. I'm perfectly happy with the OS as well. Haven't seen BSODs or forced bloatware. My new work-provided MacBook Pro is more fickle with occasional wakeup problems. Battery life on the Surface Book 2 feels on par or better than the MBP. The Linux subsystem works well enough for me. Today you can run unmodified Ubuntu binaries on Windows with zero effort -- this has been pretty mind-blowing because my mental image of Windows is mostly from XP and before. But as some others also mentioned, Win32 terminal options are not that great. Terminals are still stuck in the old Windows days: tiny toolbars, lots of options in endless GUI menus, weird usability howlers hiding in the corners. The feel of running those Linux binaries isn't 100% up there with a Mac, even though I prefer Linux to Darwin. Here's a business opportunity for someone — a Windows terminal for us Mac refugees?

Bhilai 8y ago

I used a Surface Book 2 for about an year and my experience was not great. Three main issues ruined my experience of what seemed like pretty solid hardware: - Almost every time my Surface failed to wake up from sleep and I had to force restart it. - Erratic Wifi problems. Windows 10 would fail to connect to Wifi sometimes after a restart and I had to disable and re-enable adapter every time. - External Display always seemed to hazy and had scaling issues. I have to admit I never tried hard enough to see if it needed a special display driver my external Samsung curved monitor.

SloopJon 8y ago

I recently bought a Huawei (yeah, I know) MateBook X Pro, having used Mac laptops almost exclusively since the iBook G4. My only complaint with the hardware (drivers?) is that two-finger scrolling on the otherwise decent trackpad isn't nearly as smooth as on a MacBook. My biggest problem is actually connecting mail, calendar, and contacts to Google. Whereas it works out of the box on my Macs, I have not been able to get them working in Windows 10. I've fiddled with 2-Step Verification and Allow less secure apps. I can get mail working over IMAP by enabling 2-Step Verification and using an application-specific password, but I've had no luck with calendar or contacts. I presume I would have the same problem with Microsoft hardware.

voidwtf 8y ago
I recently got a Huawei Matebook X Pro for work and I love the thing. The touch pad scrolling isn't smooth as the Apple one like you mentioned, but the tracking is great otherwise and gestures work well. Keyboard is nice, 3k screen is nice, usb-c + usb-a is nice, sd slot, etc... It's stupid amounts of light and cheap for the amount of power and features. I think they'd be a lot more popular if they advertised better. My only complaints are the camera placement and the the cooling. I like that the screen is so thin and has almost no bezel so I understand why they put the camera in the keyboard, it's just impractical for Skype which is at odds with the amazing call audio quality from the built in mics (yes, multiple, 4 of them). The cooling also leaves a bit to be desired, though http://bradshacks.com/matebook-x-pro-throttling/ http://bradshacks.com/matebook-x-pro-throttling/ has some good info on augmenting that if you feel like doing a little light hacking. I don't think it's any worse than the latest macbooks, I just think it could be better in both cases.
Wintereise 8y ago
I've got 2fa on, mail and calendar on Windows 10 work flawlessly. It had me run through the standard Google OAuth process for both, didn't need an app specific password. No experience with contacts however, I don't use it. Though, I just turned it on and it automatically offered to import from both my Google and MSFT account (which would seem that the logins are global instead of being app specific).

Birch-san 8y ago

I have the original Surface Pro (2013). # Software problems: - Windows frequently has bad touchscreen support. I've encountered many fullscreen games where a click can only be sent via a double-touch or double-pen-tap. It's phenomenally hard to click through text in story-driven games. - The machine does not stay asleep at all (that or I've misunderstood what the lock button is intended for). # Hardware problems: - The machine electrocutes you whilst charging. # Age / software / hardware problems: - Recently (I think following Win10 April 2018 Creators Update), it has been BSoDing extremely frequently. i.e. within 5 minutes of startup, during basic usage.

jki275 8y ago

It's just not that way with the Surface lineup, unfortunately. The trackpad is not quite good enough, the hardware glitches, the video card crashes, etc etc etc. All the little issues that you almost never see from Macs. I tried to like my Surface Book, but I went back to Mac. I hate the touchbar, but otherwise it's what I need.

Svoka 8y ago

I was in your position, but I bought new MacBook Pro 13". After some resistance I actually love it. I have to go back to my old laptop because some old work infrastructure is there, I really don't like it anymore. I actually like & use touch bar. This is my personal experience, I didn't think I have it. And in comparison, I have Windows installed on it too via bootcamp. I used it for 4-8 hours a day for last months for doing work. It's just awful. Working on macOS for many years really made me forget all the little things we're getting for granted.

DonbunEf7 8y ago

Windows still has the following annoyances 1. Advertisements for One Drive storage in windows explorer. 2. Advertisements for Candy Crush and other games in start menu. 3. Advertisements and nag prompts to try Edge browser when you attempt to download chrome or switch your default browser. 4. Collects lots of telemetry. Yes, most of the above issues can be solved by digging into the settings and turning them off but they shouldn't exist in the first place.

jamesgeck0 8y ago
> Advertisements and nag prompts to try Edge browser when you attempt to download chrome That was in a preview build and was rolled back after internet outrage. > or switch your default browser Edge just says "Recommended for Windows 10" next to it's entry in the list of installed browsers.