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Mexico’s drug cartels are moving into the gasoline industry
- nickbauman 8y agoMexico, along with Russia, are the two most notorious mafia states. And notice the problems have been getting worse as the amount of oil diminishes, which was predicted. This, on our own doorstep, cannot be contained and will affect our own country. There will be even more refugees, too, because of this.
- gambiting 8y ago>> This, on our own doorstep, cannot be contained and will affect our own country. Just FYI, not everyone on HN is from US.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- samstave 8y agoSure, but the entire world is/can-be affected by the actions of the US as a whole.
- linnk87 8y agoSome of us even live in Mexico. Crazy, right?
- Insanity 8y agoI never felt unsafe in Mexico and actually enjoy it a lot more than my yearly visits to the US. Incredibly friendly people, great food and beautiful places. Regarding violence, I find that most drug related violence stays contained within the cartel-world. Whilst in the US, random shootings are.. random.. Not that I feel unsafe in the US either though, the odds are pretty good that nothing will happen in either country. (Most of my time in Mexico is spent in NL, Monterrey, and most of my time in the US near San Antonio, Texas. So I can't speak for either country in it's entirety of course)
- simonsarris 8y ago> Whilst in the US, random shootings are.. random.. What you are saying is astonishingly untrue. https://crimeresearch.org/2017/04/number-murders-county-54-us-counties-2014-zero-murders-69-1-murder/ https://crimeresearch.org/2017/04/number-murders-county-54-u...
- Insanity 8y agoI was basing myself mostly on things like mass shootings such as during a recent eSports competition or the school shootings. But, my previous message might have indicated an idea of random shootings everywhere every day, which is not what I meant. As mentioned, it is not that I feel unsafe in either country and I realise most parts are safe. Thank you for the interesting link though!
- morsch 8y agoThe business implications are clear. https://xkcd.com/1138/ https://xkcd.com/1138/
- davidw 8y agoEnglish lacks a 'we' form that separates "me and all the other people" from "you and I". I think the poster meant the former. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clusivity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clusivity
- djpr 8y agoInteresting, I grew up with have inclusive/exclusive forms in Indonesian but never really thought about how it would really help in situations like this!
- browsercoin 8y agoso....a wall then
- v_lisivka 8y agoYou made two spelling errors in "war". Do you think that mafia will sit and watch?
- adventured 8y agoThe US military or national guard would be deployed as necessary if the cartels began firing on the contractors and government workers building a theoretical wall. Cartels are certainly threatening in their environment, they're entirely worthless in actual military style engagements. In terms of gear, logistics, training and soldiers, they're less capable than the most mediocre of nation armies. It's not what they're good at. They fare extremely poorly against the Mexican military. It'd be just about the dumbest thing a cartel ever did, to engage the US Government in such a moronic 'war.' They'd quickly abandon that idea. It's the reason they don't target prominent people in the US Government as it is now: the US can kill their leadership top to bottom, with just a bit of effort and resources pointed that direction. They know that, so they stay within certain bounds of behavior accordingly.
- lechiffre10 8y agoYou clearly have no idea what you're talking about. How's the US military holding up against fighters in Afghanistan or Iraq? Guerilla style warfare has always been a problem for the United States. Case in point, Vietnam. Now throw the Cartel into the mix with the funding they have and you'd have a much bigger problem at hand. "They fare extremely poorly against the Mexican military." Show proof of this statement? Ever since the Mexican government announced the war on drugs and deployed the military violence is at its highest in recent years and the rise of even more sophisticated Cartels with actual military training has risen. You should stop watching Hollywood movies.
- 2_listerine_pls 8y ago
- thefounder 8y agoI don't understand why they don't upgrade their methods for the 21st century and get into legality. I'm sure they would be quite successful in pharma/opioids/tabacco/gambling businesses. There would be no need to use axes on average people.
- hyeomans 8y ago“I don't understand why they don't upgrade their methods for the 21st century and get into legality.“ Are referring to the U.S? This partially started when drugs found a market in U.S. If you’re referring to Mexico, well we’re U.S. slave and a conservative country with a broken government. Maybe I just lost hope of my home country.
- TeMPOraL 8y agoThe legal crime and illegal crime markets are in (or close to) equilibrium; why switch if the former is about as easy as the latter?
- lossolo 8y agoBecause running legal business is a lot harder than running illegal one. With legal business there are laws/regulations and there is competition. When you run drug business and competitor show up you just take a gun and eliminate your competitor (simplifying here of course). Another thing is that you will get respect from a lot people in certain circles and a lot will fear you if you've built successful crime organization. It's a lot harder to get that running pharma business. Why do you think people like Escobar didn't just retire having hundreds millions of dollars? Sometimes its not all about the money in the end game. They do invest in legal businesses to launder money most of the time. Being on top of large criminal organization is intoxicating just like having power is.
- paulie_a 8y agoNicky Barnes made the cover of a NY times magazine making the violent drug dealer look respectable.
- drawkbox 8y ago
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- onetimemanytime 8y agoRussia can probably control their mafia. At least convince them not to touch "civilians": Meh, just a bunch on mafiosi killing each other. But if 12 headless people are found hanging from the town's main bridge, that's different, people will be scared.
- paulie_a 8y agoThe Russian government is a mafia, we just call them oligarchs. If one gets a little uppity he gets whacked. The leader is worth 50 billion dollars. It's the sopranos on steroids and has nuclear weapons.
- onetimemanytime 8y agoYeah but my point was that Mexican cartels are so openly brutal and that effects everything. Yeah, Russian government and mafia are one, but it's done differently.
- paulie_a 8y agoI don't see the difference, openly poisoning people is pretty brutal too. Or shooting journalists in the street seems fairly brutal.
- InLispWeTrust 8y agoThrough out it's history Russia has been far worse without a strong Sorpano at the top. Putin may me worth 50 or 150B and he came to power by blowing a few apartment blocks, but pensions, life expectancy, standard of living have sharply risen during his reign. Maybe if the strongest cartel leader came to power in Mexico, he'd be able to eliminate most of the crime, but USA wouldn't allow that.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- HarryHirsch 8y agoRecommended movie: Elite Squad and especially the sequel Elite Squad: Enemy Within. It's about BOPE, the special operations unit of Rio de Janeiro police. The first is about the military anti-gang exploits, the second is a good hard look at what corruption looks like. The drugs aren't going away if you break up a cartel, neither is the money.
- unixhero 8y agoThey are really tough movies to watch, and also pack a grisly and realistic storyline. I dont know if I enjoyed them or not. One thing is for certain, I can't unsee them.
- gt565k 8y agoI'd certainly add City of God and City of Men to that list. Along with Elite Squad, these movies are simply amazing. Wagner Moura. the main character in Elite Squad, also stars as Pablo Escobar in Netflix's original series Narcos. https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0609944/?ref_=tt_cl_t1 https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0609944/?ref_=tt_cl_t1
- duxup 8y agoFor some reason City of God to me was just some stylizing ... on top of some shocking violence that happened to involve a lot of kids. I really missed whatever was supposed to be great about that film...
- cambalache 8y agoIt is poverty porn for middle class people. I cannot talk about the rest of the world, but one of the main reasons a large portion of Latin-American movies suck it is because of the huge disconnect between the middle-upper class people who do them and the more 'salt of the earth" common folk who are portrayed on them.
- duxup 8y agoSometimes I wonder if that is the case. I felt City of God occasionally seemed to have some sympathy for the subjects... but other times treated them like characters and video game NPCs...
- samstave 8y agoHow much cocaine can you dissolve in gasoline-based/like solvents to smuggle and then reconstitute? How much cash can you smuggle in the middle of a fuel tanker? How easily/efficiently can oil companies launder money? Why is no one addressing the seemingly obvious truth that the entire world is nothing but a complex corrupt criminal system of lies? Or am I just far too cynical?
- zeroname 8y ago> Why is no one addressing the seemingly obvious truth that the entire world is nothing but a complex corrupt criminal system of lies? It isn't. > Or am I just far too cynical? Yes.
- paulie_a 8y agoThe Russian mob did that with the rail distillery McCormick. They dyed the vodka blue and would ship it as window cleaner in 55 gallon drums. Then remove the dye to avoid taxes.
- samstave 8y agoTHanks - I was interested in this story - and found this link: https://www.nytimes.com/2000/08/19/nyregion/a-smuggling-operation-with-a-russian-twist.html https://www.nytimes.com/2000/08/19/nyregion/a-smuggling-oper...
- opportune 8y agoShitty vodka is so cheap and easy to make, you would think it would be better to just produce the vodka as close to the point of sale as possible
- samstave 8y agoTaxes and snooping about to the point where they need to have a big facility...
- crb002 8y agoConstruction is still king for money laundering. $1 bulldozer rental here, $500 toilet seat there, just like a bank for deposits and withdrawals.
- poisonarena 8y agohey so I noticed you were getting downvoted, but in a way you are right.. I worked at a large bank in mexico and construction business is divided by different firms, some more corrupt than others, the construction isn't really controlled by cartels or mafias, but their own construction corrupt syndicates, kinda.. but definitely it is a pain to deal with them when they decide certain bribes are not enough, they often block entrances to buildings with heavy machines or interfere in other construction firms work.. But is is a seperate problem from drug cartels completely
- turtlecloud 8y agoYa. In the US a lot of the cement companies are owned by Italians. Former mafia members I presume.
- GordonS 8y agoStereotype much?
- earthwrldshaman 8y agoFrom one narcotic to another..makes business sense
- 2_listerine_pls 8y ago> “This guy grabs his phone and dials up the general. For $50,000 and 50 kilos of marijuana, they let him go. He also gave up 10,000 pesos he had on his person. That’s how it works with los militares.”
- sebastianavina 8y agomaybe 50 kilos of cocaine. but marijuana? that shit is worthless even in mexico
- 2_listerine_pls 8y agoSo that their platoon has something to smoke.
- 21 8y agoThis story collapses a lot of popular narratives. That peoples in USA buying drugs are the drivers of violence in Mexico. That legalizing drugs would make the cartels and the violence disappear.
- empath75 8y agoNo one ever seriously suggested the latter. But reducing the size of black markets will reduce the revenue from them. I mean gangs are moving bootleg cigarettes around to get around taxes but it’s not major driver of violence.
- partycoder 8y agoIt starts before that. The Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 caused many opium poppy planters to move to Mexico. During WW1, WW2, the high demand for opioid-based analgesics like morphine resulted in increased opium planting. Why were there opium poppy planters in the US in the first place? Opium poppy is not a plant that is not endemic to the Americas. It starts with the opium wars, where the British fought to force China into tolerating their opium trade at the cost of millions of people becoming addicted.
- jimnotgym 8y ago> That legalizing drugs would make the cartels and the violence disappear. I wonder, however, if drugs had never become illegal would a major crime organization managed to form in the first place?
- stevespang 8y agoOLD NEWS, this has been happening quite a while, I watched a VICE documentary about it.
- Bucephalus355 8y agoBasically Latin America has been like the entire Middle East for the last 10 years. For all Steven Pinker writes about the decline of violence, this cannot be in anyway true about Latin America. The crime rate is up 10% since the early 2000’s, even after aggressive “statistical management” by the governments. After including what crimes aren’t reported, it’s probably closer to 30% or 40%. The Navy Seals have done training exercises in the favelas of Brazil; it’s that bad. The entire continent has been plunged into the same chaos Columbia experienced in the late 80’s (when they would bomb an entire jet airliner just to kill 1 person). Perhaps this was inevitable. Maybe some “age of violence” just happens on the way from dictatorship to democracy. After the Soviet Union fell, it didn’t seem like that in Eastern Europe, but events in the Middle East and South America now seem to suggest otherwise.
- qaq 8y ago" After the Soviet Union fell, it didn’t seem like that in Eastern Europe" it was pretty bad after USSR collapsed there were organized crime groups with membership in high thousands. Some of the richest oligarchs in Ukraine and Russia came from those groups including Rinat Akhmetov in Ukraine and a good number of people from putin's inner circle.
- ivm 8y agoFYI: Chile has lower homicide rate[1] than the US on average (3.46 vs. 5.35) and Argentina is pretty close (5.94). [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention...
- passn 8y ago“Basically Latin America has been like the entire Middle East for the last 10 years.” This is a gross generalization. There are over 600 million people in Latin America and 33 countries in Latin America and the Caribbean. Each has had different levels of development, violence and corruption, and overall are vastly improved over the past 10-20 years. Brazil, the largest country in Latam, despite its problems has still grown GDP per capita almost by 100% since 2006, and is making enormous progress in the fight against corruption with the ‘Car Wash’ investigations. Mexican GDP per capita has also been steadily improving for 20 years. Over time improvements in security will follow. “The Navy Seals have done training exercises in the favelas of Brazil; it’s that bad.” The US military trains law enforcement and military in many people in many countries, including countries like Australia and the UK.
- syntaxing 8y agoI always wondering how the US managed to tame the Mafia in the early 20s to late 70s. Is there something the Mexican government can mimic or is there something either political or cultural that prevents this?
- brandonmenc 8y agoafaik, the Italian mafia in the US restrained themselves from killing cops or federal agents. Mexican gangs have no such policy.
- abledon 8y agoI heard it was due to the corporations moving in and getting stronger. Their lawyers were far more ruthless.
- savanaly 8y agoCertainly, that was depicted in the movie Casino for example. Not that I would take a Hollywood movie as any sort of history lesson, but it is demonstrative of that point of view. Taking it as the true explanation for the sake of argument, why does the same thing not happen in Mexico?
- liftbigweights 8y agoIt was multifacted involving culture, demographic, immigration, law enforcement and external competition. 1. Banning of italian immigration in 1924 ( Immigration Act of 1924 ). 2. The integration of italians into american life. 3. Poor immigrant italian families transitioning to wealthier italian-american families generation after generation. 4. Decades long government crackdown on organized crime. 5. Competition from non-italian mafia ( russian, ukrainian, asian, cuban and of course the mexicans ). As immigration stop and as italian american moved out of cities to suburbs and got professional jobs, the mob lost its prestige and demographic base. And as the government cracked down, the structure of the mafia was slowly dismantled along with its reputation. Finally, just like the italian mafia usurped the irish mafia, the italian mafia was being squeezed by other younger and stronger ethnic mafia groups.
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- beenBoutIT 8y ago"The armed conflict between the cartels and Mexico’s military, which has dragged on for 12 years, now ranks as the deadliest war in the world apart from Syria." Do people still voluntarily go on holiday in Mexico?
- allannienhuis 8y agoPretty sure the vast majority of the gang/cartel related violence doesn't take place in the tourist areas, and that the few reports we hear about where a tourist has been involved in some violence are a tiny percentage of the overall problem. I've never had the feeling that tourists in the main tourist areas in Mexico were any less safe than at home. Certainly I'd be more afraid of my safety in many parts of most major US cities.
- cpncrunch 8y agohttps://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/mexico/safety-and-security https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/mexico/safety-and-s... "Crime and violence are serious problems in Mexico and the security situation can pose a risk for foreigners" "There have been a number of violent car-jackings and robberies along the Pacific Highway and you should be careful when travelling on this route. " https://globalnews.ca/news/4171527/cancun-mexico-violence-travel-global-affairs/ https://globalnews.ca/news/4171527/cancun-mexico-violence-tr... "Canadians travel to Mexico more than any other country except the United States. But many visitors may be unaware of the growing violence in a main city that was once hailed as one of the country’s safest: Cancun. This week, five people were found dead near the public prosecutor’s office in the city on the Yucatán Peninsula, bringing the death toll by violence in the beach city to more than 100 since the beginning of the year." Doesn't really sound like the kind of place I'll consider visiting any time soon. I like living in one of the safest places in the world, and I have no interest in going somewhere like this.
- poisonarena 8y ago40 million tourists in 2017 10 million Q1 2018.. Just a quick google search..
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- deletemenow 8y agoBut how can we blame America, especially law abiding citizens for this?