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Twitter CEO: conservative employees ‘dont feel safe to express their opinions’

71 points by kushti 8y ago

snaky 8y ago
> Dorsey spoke to Fox News commentator Sean Hannity on his radio show during a recent press blitz and had a number of secret meetings with conservative politicians in Washington this summer to “build ‘trust’ among conservatives who have long chastised the company,” according to the Washington Post. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2018/06/27/inside-facebook-twitters-secret-meetings-with-trump-aides-conservative-leaders-who-say-tech-is-biased/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2018/06/27/inside-...
timavr 8y ago
I am not sure work is the right place to express your opinions on controversial topics. It is different though sharing your thoughts/interest with people you trust at work. Also there is assymetry of impact of ideas between two sides. Independent person would probably say that conservative ideas are Perceived to be more controversial by other side then other way around. Like gun debate. If co-worker comes to work and says guns are bad. Ok whatever your opinion man. But if they come to work and like yo guns are awesome, 2nd amendment bros. I own one, then for other side this person might be perceived as threat.
- cargo8 8y ago
  It's a little bit different if your job is to design and build a product intended to be arbiters of free speech, and the govt is pressuring your industry and company specifically to maybe take a heavier hand in moderating... In that case your job probably largely involves thinking through and talking through these issues with open-minded peers, wherein lies the rub
- Turing_Machine 8y ago
  > But if they come to work and like yo guns are awesome, 2nd amendment bros. I own one, then for other side this person might be perceived as threat. How do you think that "Yo, Marxism is awesome" would be perceived by someone who grew up in a communist slave state? Or even someone familiar with the history of Marxist governments in the 20th Century?
  - BadassFractal 8y ago
    It's amusing to read Orwell's The Road to Wigan Pier in 2018 and learn that 100 years ago bolshevism was in big fashion among the English bourgeois youth, and Lenin was considered one of the greatest men alive. This is even after the revolution and the Red Terror. Time is a flat circle. Either way, I personally don't want legislation to ban people from talking or promoting nazism or leninism. Let bad ideas be defeated in the arena of conversation, I don't need my feelings protected from hearing something I dislike and strongly disagree with.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > Or even someone familiar with the history of Marxist governments in the 20th Century? There were no Marxist governments in the 20th Century, and if you believe otherwise you've been duped (perhaps indirectly) by Leninist propaganda.
    - danharaj 8y ago
      As is often the case, the proliferation of modifiers negates the original sense: Marxism-Leninism vs Marxism.
    - Turing_Machine 8y ago
      Ah, yes. The old "but that wasn't REAL Marxism" line. So tell me, why is it that whenever someone attempts to institute a Marxist government, the invariable outcome is slavery, starvation, and mass murder? We have dozens of examples, dude. And the invariable outcome is invariably followed by some apologist like you who claims "that wasn't real Marxism". After so many attempts, one can only conclude that either, yes, it is "real Marxism" or that "real Marxism" is impossible to implement. Sorry, guy. We're not going to let you murder another hundred million people.
      - dragonwriter 8y ago
        > So tell me, why is it that whenever someone attempts to institute a Marxist government, the invariable outcome is slavery, starvation, and mass murder? No one has ever instituted a government intended to be Marxist, with or without those ends. I'm not even sure there's been a major effort to institute Marxist government, even if it failed to institute a government, since the time of Marx and Engels. Leninism, which rejects key aspects of Marxism (particularly, it's essential prerequisite conditions and it's basic methods) but sells itself as Marxism (hence my line about people believing Marxist governments have exist being dupes of Leninism) has been attempted with the results you describe. The closest thing that has actually been put into practice to Marxism (which still isn't Marxism, differing in roughly the opposite direction but lesser degree than does Leninism) is the modern mixed economy that has displaced the 19th century system Marx named “capitalism” throughout the developed world, which was both shaped by (largely through Marxist influence on Western labor movements) and which incorporates several elements of Marx’s platform and compromises versions of some others elements of that platform, when compared to the 19th Century capitalism it displaced. > After so many attempts, one can only conclude that either, yes, it is "real Marxism" or that "real Marxism" is impossible to implement. The latter is closer to the truth; at least, it seems politically impossible to achieve support for a radical transition to Marxism in a state which had acheived the prerequisite state Marx identifies as essential. While both building class consciousness on some level in the working class and using it as a lever to move the State in a direction closer Marxism is possible (and, indeed, seems to have near-universally occurred in states meeting Marx’s criteria), and Marx seems also to have been accurate in both suggesting that such incremental change would be leveraged by capitalists to forestall revolution and would be precarious and eternally at risk of backsliding spurred by the capitalist class, the revolutionary alternative Marx proposed seems impractical in practice.
- BadassFractal 8y ago
  Exactly, "controversial" is a mostly relative notion, almost always with respect to the local majority opinion.
- inetknght 8y ago
  > work is the right place to express your opinions on controversial topics. This shuts down all discussion of controversial topics. If you're not allowed to discuss how those controversial topics can impact your work environment and customers then you're running down a very slippery slope of biasing your company against customers who similarly hold controversial viewpoints. > Independent person would probably say that conservative ideas are Perceived to be more controversial by other side then other way around. This is a biased opinion. > for other side this person might be perceived as threat. Controversial topics aren't limited to politics and feeling threatened can go both ways. I happen to own a gun and am pro-second-amendment. I feel threatened by people who are not trained to use guns. What about cars? I feel threatened by people who brag about racing. Or drinking. Or smoking. Or sex. But that's the easy stuff that "everyone" (well, mature people IMO) knows not to talk about at the office. But then there's the other things. The things that relate to work. I definitely feel threatened when a coworker talks about customers in a derogatory manner, especially when it's my boss. Employees can be customers too. I feel threatened when someone at the office talks about how we're increasing the margins by cutting corners somewhere. I have empathy for customers and I don't want our product's quality reduced. If I don't feel my job security would be safe if I spoke up, then my coworker talking about that will make me feel threatened.
  - webkike 8y ago
    You feel threatened by people talking about smoking?
    - inetknght 8y ago
      Talking about not so much, but actively participating in yes. I grew up in a Mormon family where smoking was not only taboo but very strongly punished. Even second-hand smoke can cause medical problems. If I can't tell my coworkers that I don't appreciate them smoking -- even outside of the building -- anywhere I can smell it then that's going to cause problems for me.
  - etrautmann 8y ago
    > I feel threatened by people who are not trained to use guns. This is a strained and bizarre argument and requires unpacking for me to understand, unless you meant it as hyperbole. I enjoy shooting safely, but I can't imagine feeling threatened by someone's lack of firearms training in an office workplace.
- morgtheborg 8y ago
  > Independent person would probably say that conservative ideas are Perceived to be more controversial by other side then other way around. I would argue said person isn't actually "independent" then. > this person might be perceived as threat Only by a hysterical person.
  - happytoexplain 8y ago
    >Only by a hysterical person. This is incredibly insulting, especially since you've thrown it out curtly with no explanation. While I personally am not threatened by a person voicing their gun enthusiasm at work (giving all benefit of the doubt to the hypothetical gun enthusiast, e.g. it's not an out-of-the-blue zealous fervor), but I can easily imagine a non-hysterical person feeling threatened if they have zero experience with gun owners and zero context with which to personally relate to gun owners. Try to have at least a little understanding of other people whose experiences are not your own.
    - morgtheborg 8y ago
      I was responding to > If co-worker comes to work and says guns are bad. Ok whatever your opinion man. But if they come to work and like yo guns are awesome, 2nd amendment bros. I own one, then for other side this person might be perceived as threat. If you genuinely feel like you have been threatened by the above to the extent that your work is now an unsafe place for you so conservatives should keep any chat about their guns to themselves, I'm sorry, but you are having an extreme emotional response disconnected from reason. Aka hysterical. > I can easily imagine a non-hysterical person feeling threatened if they have zero experience with gun owners and zero context with which to personally relate to gun owners Look, I can see how someone might have been brainwashed to find all guns so scary that the concept of someone near them who isn't a police officer having access seems like a direct threat to them...just like I can see someone being so brainwashed as to view all African-Americans as innately dangerous and feeling unsafe working with them. But in both cases I'd claim you are being irrational to an extreme sufficient to call your reaction hysterical.
- deleted 8y ago
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- supercanuck 8y ago
  there is a big difference between, i like to shoot guns in the woods on weekends and gun ranges so i can learn to defend myself and lets arm kindergarten teachers to prevent school shootings the second makes me question your judgement, but that is exactly the sort of discussions going on in politics today
- masonic 8y ago
  conservative ideas are Perceived to be more controversial by other side then other way around You're saying that conservatives are more open-minded than the other side, then.
- rubbingalcohol 8y ago
  Though it gets murky when it's standard-fare for your coworkers to have Twitter accounts blasting their extreme leftist ideological beliefs. Or perhaps you take issue with one-sided moderation policy that bans syndicated political cartoonists but consistently allows violent threats against conservatives like Dana Loesch - but bringing up such concerns would get you railroaded out of the company like James Damore. Real-world examples of individuals who have had their careers destroyed by just questioning the moral majority creates a hostile work environment, self-censorship, and ultimately mediocrity as your company blindly alienates potentially half its U.S. consumer-base and decays into irrelevance. That sort of scenario works itself out in the end, so it's fine by me.
- jerkstate 8y ago
  If someone shares an anti-gun opinion, it could be construed that they do not think people should have a right to effective self-defense, which could also be perceived as a threatening position.
def_ConGame 8y ago
In order to feel safe expressing your opinions, you have to feel like you won't raise an eyebrow. Either that, or any owner of a raised eyebrow won't take it any further than the mild disagreement of raising an eyebrow. It's really obvious that not only is it not possible to say whatever you want at work, but that in some cases, raising an eyebrow is the last thing you will ever do, at least within the context of one's career. The tension at hand is founded in things that simply will not be happening any time soon. But unpredictable reactions to minor slights set people on edge all around. The polarity is highly charged, even though no one really has murder and beatings high on their list of priorities, the paranoia and suspicion that the other side does is what leaves us destabilized. Homosexuality, abortion, race, evolution, genetics, how the universe began, and where do we go when we die. Talking about these things at work is a mistake, but even joking about "the wrong opinion" will completely ruin you in less than an hour, so trying to feel safe about having an opinion is a bad idea, whether you feel you're on the right side of history or not.
titusjohnson 8y ago
Are they talking about Conservatives (basically a Progressive, but slower) or Right Wing Nationalists. It's really hard to tell these days. Right wingers desperately want to be known as conservative, it's like camo. Unfortunately Conservatives haven't defended their party vigorously enough and excised the cancer, so now when someone says "I'm a Conservative!" it's basically impossible to tell if we're talking about someone who wants to cut back spending, or someone who wants to take a kickback or million via private contract, a literal goddamn nazi, or a kiddie diddler. > Twitter CEO: right wing nationalist employees ‘dont feel safe to express their opinions’
- cargo8 8y ago
  That's literally the point. Because of reactions like yours (specifically that last line re-paraphrasing), anyone on the conservative spectrum is now afraid to express their opinions or reveal such information
  - amaccuish 8y ago
    Just because someone says they're "conservative" doesn't mean I'll sit quiet while they tell me about how disgusting it is that the gays can marry now. But the thing is, originally, "conservatives" weren't like that. They've had their good name stolen by a bunch of thugs.
    - morgtheborg 8y ago
      Look, it's HARD to see the other side. I get it. But take a beat. No one is asking you to sit quietly. Your welcome to disagree. We expect the conservative to be able to hear about your approval (from their perspective) of the violent murder of babies for your personal convenience without losing their ability to work with you effectively as a co-worker and treat you with dignity while disagreeing. It's fair to think there'd be reciprocity and you should be able to do the same when they discuss gay marriage. Usually when I point the above out, I'm told that OF COURSE it's cool to expect the conservative to handle talk of abortion or public approval of abortions "appropriately" in the workplace because their perspective it's murder is merely an opinion---and a wrong one at that. But your perspective that gay marriage is not a sin is a FACT, not an opinion, so they should suck it up and keep their filthy biases to themselves. Unsurprisingly, conservatives do not appreciate the attitude that their opinions are wrong and should be hidden as shameful secrets and liberal opinions are right and should be trumpeted from the roof.
magissima 8y ago
Good.
sitkack 8y ago
Part of being a conservative is strength. If you don't have that fortitude, you are conservative only in name.
- platinumrad 8y ago
  This might actually be the most meaningless platitude anyone has ever said.
  - anoncoward111 8y ago
    Completely agree. It is never a good idea to generalize a population based on some label.
  - dang 8y ago
    Maybe so, but please don't call names in HN comments. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
- sdinsn 8y ago
  > Part of being a conservative is strength Um, no? Where did you get that from?
root_axis 8y ago
Conservatives are ostensibly opposed to the idea of safe spaces, so how do we reconcile that ideology with the fact that they want safe spaces in communities where they are the minority?
- geebee 8y ago
  There may be some ambiguity in the way you're using the phrase "safe space".
- Mononokay 8y ago
  I hate to generalize; and overall I think the world could do a lot better if we could bait either side into listening to one another, but it's undeniably on average the same reason they want to deny social media companies the right to refrain from serving people they don't want to, but openly advocate for companies being able to not serve LGBT people: "But it's them!"
- deleted 8y ago
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- morgtheborg 8y ago
  > safe spaces I'm not sure "safe space" is the right word. People lose jobs, housing opportunities, and professional connections for being conservative in the Bay Area. There's a damn good reason to be afraid and it isn't about our "feelings". There are professional repercussions.
  - root_axis 8y ago
    > People lose jobs, housing opportunities, and professional connections for being conservative in the Bay Area Sounds to me like literally the exact same thing the left claims about being black or a woman in contexts where the conservative ideology is more pervasive.
    - morgtheborg 8y ago
      I'm sure that's true. I haven't personally lived in a conservative area in America for any extended period of time. Hopefully we can both agree these are bad things to occur due to race, gender, sex, political orientation, etc. You should be judged for how you treat and speak to people, not for your political opinions. I've worked with men that genuinely believe that women should not be educated and just stay home with children. Whatever. They treated women well in class and outside of class and THAT is what they should be judged on for jobs, housing, and connections --- not their personal opinions when they vote.
throwaway2975 8y ago
I think we have reached the point where being on the conservative side of US politics means more, a lot more, than just having "different political opinions". Am I so wrong for thinking the conservative side of US politics demonstrates a lack empathy towards the poor, minorities, and women on a regular basis? In comparison to the left? Edit: My wording is poor, but I'm mostly concerned about those who have the power to pass legislation that affects others. In other words, politicians, not citizens who vote.
- albertop 8y ago
  You forgotten to put <sarcasm> or are you trolling? :-)
  - throwaway2975 8y ago
    I'm hoping to combat my bias with new perspective. I would like to be convinced that people who identify as Republican aren't more likely to be racist or misogynistic people.
    - pizzazzaro 8y ago
      I think "adventured" shows you what we're dealing with. There is no respect for the fact that some members of our society continue to enjoy certain advantages. When you're the one who recieves such, this is subtle. Telling people about the racist history behind zip codes can be a hard conversation. Telling white people about the way black families have "the talk" about being careful not to spook police, or white people who call police simply for being black... That's a hard conversation. Telling my fellow white men about how women have their own version of "the talk" about walking down the street alone in more communities than you realize... That's often a hard conversation. The talk about how the poor deal with more expenses, more physical pain, less power to demand basic humanity from shittier bosses... As a car-dweller with a full-time job on the East Coast, I've had to deliver it repeatedly. Nobody helps, unless you can earn the trust of others in a similar situation. And car-dwellers move around too much to make those relationships. Nobody had these hard conversations with me growing up. I had black friends, activists, girlfriends that informed me about how my own neighbors live. I didnt always take it well at the time, but I did grow from the experience. And no matter how much we rage about it on twitter in our safe little bubbles, nobody that needs this revelation is going to hear it anywhere but in person. The subgroup of Conservatives whose ideology boils down to "screw you, I got mine" is just Sociopathy claiming Righteousness via deformed Capitalism. These people need to be called out as the anti-patriots they are.
jakelazaroff 8y ago
Is he referring to "conservative opinions" as in economic issues and foreign policy, or just racism/sexism/etc? Somehow I don't believe that conservative employees are scared of expressing support for tax cuts or right-to-work laws.
- morgtheborg 8y ago
  > racism/sexism/etc Quite a few conservative positions are put under the heading sexist/racist/etc unfairly. It's a pretty neat way to stop conversation in its tracks.
  - amaccuish 8y ago
    Mind providing some examples? Trying to understand.
    - morgtheborg 8y ago
      Pro-life as a man = sexist because you're trying to control women Strict immigration laws, particularly around deportation or punishments for illegal entrance = racist Lowering or abolishing minimum wage = racist and you hate the poor Any comment on Islam that isn't rah-rah = racist (which is fascinating since religion != race, but there you go) Death Penalty = racist (disproportionate representation of African-Americans on death row) Religious as a man = usually leads to sexist claims if a member of a conservative sect As a white woman who tries hard to find common ground before disagreeing, has lived extensively in different African countries, and firmly believes we are ALL sexist and racist, I tend to get more attacks that I'm heartless and/or brainwashed. I try to defang the racist/sexist attacks right off the bat by getting mutual agreement that we all are and our job is to work on offsetting it as much as possible. But my white male SO who, God help him, isn't willing to do the 10-20 minute reassurance dance before getting to the actual debate? My God, he can't even TALK about most of these issues without getting labeled something horrible or a shut down of "check your privilege" that, if he ignores it, leads to some kind of racist/sexist label.
      - 8y ago
jonathankoren 8y ago
I notice the same dynamics are playing out on social media that played out in traditional media years ago. Conservatives cry bias, without evidence that any bias is appearing in the actual product. As Rich Bond said over 25 years ago[0]: “There is some strategy to it [bashing the 'liberal' media] ... If you watch any great coach, what they try to do is 'work the refs.' Maybe the ref will cut you a little slack on the next one.” It’s a useful myth, where blatantly partisan Fox News bills itself as “fair and balanced”. I’ve seen this play out in my own career where, claims of political bias was cast against algorithms I developed because random extreme partisan website wasn’t being put in the top slot for a trending topic. It was disingenuous criticism. We’re seeing the same thing again because foreign troll farms are being shutdown, you find yourself in a minority, the. You have to look to some grand conspiracy because your filter bubble was popped. There’s nothing here but the old tired tactic of promoting a false equivalence, which is paying political dividends. See Facebook’s fact checking partners, 4 respected non partisan orgs, and the explicitly conservativly partisan Weekly Standard, which used its veto against an explicitly liberally partisan organization.[1] It’s really weird to have a partisan org on your ostensibly nonpartisan editorial board. It does make sense if you’re throwing conservatives a bone by giving them a vote and not a liberal org. So the refs are successfully worked. When it comes to Twitter itself, Jack has shown through his actions that he either fundamentally misunderstand what is going on, or he actually supports the extreme views on his site. [0] https://archives.cjr.org/politics/a_cynics_take_on_media_bias.php https://archives.cjr.org/politics/a_cynics_take_on_media_bia... [1] https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/9/12/17848026/facebook-thinkprogress-weekly-standard https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/9/12/17848026/f...
pr0tonic 8y ago
Seeing how the quickly the comments in this thread have devolved into calling conservatives all kinds of derogatory names is a good example why conservative Twitter employees might be afraid to express their opinions. The place of my employment, like most tech companies is overwhelmingly liberal. I dont even identify as liberal or conservative and I am afraid to express any opinion that is contrary to liberal thought. The problem is not that I may have a minority opinion at work, it's how common it's become with people on the left to try and ruin those who hold the "wrong" opinions usually by trying to get them fired and going on social media to call them all sorts of nasty things. Sadly I think my anecdote is more of the norm than the exception in liberal dominated spaces.
- BadassFractal 8y ago
  Jonathan Haidt has a great concept for this "trying to get people fired at all costs by taking the most offense and doing the worst read of something someone said". He calls it the "prestige economy", where one gains great prestige in the eyes of one's group by calling out someone for being racist/sexist etc., even when the caller KNOWS (he references the Dean of Claremont McKenna getting fired as example) that's not at all what that person intended. Intent doesn't matter in that world view, and it becomes all about gaining prestige through intentional (or maybe not) misinterpretation of their position. It's a dangerous game to play, and I can't see it leading to anything but the worst tribalism and division among well-meaning people.
- atomi 8y ago
  Conservatives have let illiberalism take over their party. The US was founded on liberal idealism - that all men are created equal then later a liberal conservative, Lincoln followed that same ideal. That's always been our ideal. How is it that people surprised that illiberal conservatives are reviled when they go against the very values this country was founded on?
- deleted 8y ago
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realComfort 8y ago
[flagged] [dead]
deleted 8y ago
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russellbeattie 8y ago
LOL! Anyone in this thread who uses the actual words describing what "conservative opinions" really are get downvoted. I guess we'll have to play the conservative euphemism game! Instead of xenophobic, you should say 'supports strong borders'. Instead of sexist, you should say 'believes in right to life'. Instead of homophobic, you should say 'follows traditional family roles as set by the bible'. Instead of racist, you should say 'prefers real Americans'. Instead of hates the poor, you should say 'believes in supply side economics and welfare reform'. Instead of spiteful, ignorant, unreasonable liars, you should say 'fair and balanced'.
- sdinsn 8y ago
  You are part of the problem.
  - dang 8y ago
    Personal attacks will get you banned on HN, regardless of how right your views are. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and don't do this again.
sdinsn 8y ago
At my work, talking about politics is just not allowed. More places should follow this. There's nothing good that can come of it.
- chrisco255 8y ago
  I think ideally, people would realize that there's human beings who disagree with them, that aren't terrible people. Maybe that's too much to ask in today's climate?
  - sdinsn 8y ago
    I agree, but I don't think that will happen
threatofrain 8y ago
Is conservatism a strong or coherent identity outside of Christianity? I feel like when people say "conservative" it muddles what things mean to an outside audience. It's just like when people say religious, but they really mean Christian.
- gwright 8y ago
  Yes. But I would also agree that many of the terms, such as "conservative", that are thrown around in public debate are not very well defined or are often interpreted in very different ways by different people.
- neonate 8y ago
  There are plenty of non-Christian conservatives.
dang 8y ago
All: Hacker News is a place for community members to hear and understand each other. If you want to fight, please fight elsewhere. Regardless of how right you are or feel, if you can't muster tolerance or empathy for the other side, please don't post here until you can. You might not owe it to them, but you do owe it to the community.

71 points by kushti 8y ago

> Dorsey spoke to Fox News commentator Sean Hannity on his radio show during a recent press blitz and had a number of secret meetings with conservative politicians in Washington this summer to “build ‘trust’ among conservatives who have long chastised the company,” according to the Washington Post. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2018/06/27/inside-facebook-twitters-secret-meetings-with-trump-aides-conservative-leaders-who-say-tech-is-biased/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2018/06/27/inside-...

timavr 8y ago

I am not sure work is the right place to express your opinions on controversial topics. It is different though sharing your thoughts/interest with people you trust at work. Also there is assymetry of impact of ideas between two sides. Independent person would probably say that conservative ideas are Perceived to be more controversial by other side then other way around. Like gun debate. If co-worker comes to work and says guns are bad. Ok whatever your opinion man. But if they come to work and like yo guns are awesome, 2nd amendment bros. I own one, then for other side this person might be perceived as threat.

cargo8 8y ago
It's a little bit different if your job is to design and build a product intended to be arbiters of free speech, and the govt is pressuring your industry and company specifically to maybe take a heavier hand in moderating... In that case your job probably largely involves thinking through and talking through these issues with open-minded peers, wherein lies the rub
Turing_Machine 8y ago
> But if they come to work and like yo guns are awesome, 2nd amendment bros. I own one, then for other side this person might be perceived as threat. How do you think that "Yo, Marxism is awesome" would be perceived by someone who grew up in a communist slave state? Or even someone familiar with the history of Marxist governments in the 20th Century?
- BadassFractal 8y ago
  It's amusing to read Orwell's The Road to Wigan Pier in 2018 and learn that 100 years ago bolshevism was in big fashion among the English bourgeois youth, and Lenin was considered one of the greatest men alive. This is even after the revolution and the Red Terror. Time is a flat circle. Either way, I personally don't want legislation to ban people from talking or promoting nazism or leninism. Let bad ideas be defeated in the arena of conversation, I don't need my feelings protected from hearing something I dislike and strongly disagree with.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > Or even someone familiar with the history of Marxist governments in the 20th Century? There were no Marxist governments in the 20th Century, and if you believe otherwise you've been duped (perhaps indirectly) by Leninist propaganda.
  - danharaj 8y ago
    As is often the case, the proliferation of modifiers negates the original sense: Marxism-Leninism vs Marxism.
  - Turing_Machine 8y ago
    Ah, yes. The old "but that wasn't REAL Marxism" line. So tell me, why is it that whenever someone attempts to institute a Marxist government, the invariable outcome is slavery, starvation, and mass murder? We have dozens of examples, dude. And the invariable outcome is invariably followed by some apologist like you who claims "that wasn't real Marxism". After so many attempts, one can only conclude that either, yes, it is "real Marxism" or that "real Marxism" is impossible to implement. Sorry, guy. We're not going to let you murder another hundred million people.
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      > So tell me, why is it that whenever someone attempts to institute a Marxist government, the invariable outcome is slavery, starvation, and mass murder? No one has ever instituted a government intended to be Marxist, with or without those ends. I'm not even sure there's been a major effort to institute Marxist government, even if it failed to institute a government, since the time of Marx and Engels. Leninism, which rejects key aspects of Marxism (particularly, it's essential prerequisite conditions and it's basic methods) but sells itself as Marxism (hence my line about people believing Marxist governments have exist being dupes of Leninism) has been attempted with the results you describe. The closest thing that has actually been put into practice to Marxism (which still isn't Marxism, differing in roughly the opposite direction but lesser degree than does Leninism) is the modern mixed economy that has displaced the 19th century system Marx named “capitalism” throughout the developed world, which was both shaped by (largely through Marxist influence on Western labor movements) and which incorporates several elements of Marx’s platform and compromises versions of some others elements of that platform, when compared to the 19th Century capitalism it displaced. > After so many attempts, one can only conclude that either, yes, it is "real Marxism" or that "real Marxism" is impossible to implement. The latter is closer to the truth; at least, it seems politically impossible to achieve support for a radical transition to Marxism in a state which had acheived the prerequisite state Marx identifies as essential. While both building class consciousness on some level in the working class and using it as a lever to move the State in a direction closer Marxism is possible (and, indeed, seems to have near-universally occurred in states meeting Marx’s criteria), and Marx seems also to have been accurate in both suggesting that such incremental change would be leveraged by capitalists to forestall revolution and would be precarious and eternally at risk of backsliding spurred by the capitalist class, the revolutionary alternative Marx proposed seems impractical in practice.
BadassFractal 8y ago
Exactly, "controversial" is a mostly relative notion, almost always with respect to the local majority opinion.
inetknght 8y ago
> work is the right place to express your opinions on controversial topics. This shuts down all discussion of controversial topics. If you're not allowed to discuss how those controversial topics can impact your work environment and customers then you're running down a very slippery slope of biasing your company against customers who similarly hold controversial viewpoints. > Independent person would probably say that conservative ideas are Perceived to be more controversial by other side then other way around. This is a biased opinion. > for other side this person might be perceived as threat. Controversial topics aren't limited to politics and feeling threatened can go both ways. I happen to own a gun and am pro-second-amendment. I feel threatened by people who are not trained to use guns. What about cars? I feel threatened by people who brag about racing. Or drinking. Or smoking. Or sex. But that's the easy stuff that "everyone" (well, mature people IMO) knows not to talk about at the office. But then there's the other things. The things that relate to work. I definitely feel threatened when a coworker talks about customers in a derogatory manner, especially when it's my boss. Employees can be customers too. I feel threatened when someone at the office talks about how we're increasing the margins by cutting corners somewhere. I have empathy for customers and I don't want our product's quality reduced. If I don't feel my job security would be safe if I spoke up, then my coworker talking about that will make me feel threatened.
- webkike 8y ago
  You feel threatened by people talking about smoking?
  - inetknght 8y ago
    Talking about not so much, but actively participating in yes. I grew up in a Mormon family where smoking was not only taboo but very strongly punished. Even second-hand smoke can cause medical problems. If I can't tell my coworkers that I don't appreciate them smoking -- even outside of the building -- anywhere I can smell it then that's going to cause problems for me.
- etrautmann 8y ago
  > I feel threatened by people who are not trained to use guns. This is a strained and bizarre argument and requires unpacking for me to understand, unless you meant it as hyperbole. I enjoy shooting safely, but I can't imagine feeling threatened by someone's lack of firearms training in an office workplace.
morgtheborg 8y ago
> Independent person would probably say that conservative ideas are Perceived to be more controversial by other side then other way around. I would argue said person isn't actually "independent" then. > this person might be perceived as threat Only by a hysterical person.
- happytoexplain 8y ago
  >Only by a hysterical person. This is incredibly insulting, especially since you've thrown it out curtly with no explanation. While I personally am not threatened by a person voicing their gun enthusiasm at work (giving all benefit of the doubt to the hypothetical gun enthusiast, e.g. it's not an out-of-the-blue zealous fervor), but I can easily imagine a non-hysterical person feeling threatened if they have zero experience with gun owners and zero context with which to personally relate to gun owners. Try to have at least a little understanding of other people whose experiences are not your own.
  - morgtheborg 8y ago
    I was responding to > If co-worker comes to work and says guns are bad. Ok whatever your opinion man. But if they come to work and like yo guns are awesome, 2nd amendment bros. I own one, then for other side this person might be perceived as threat. If you genuinely feel like you have been threatened by the above to the extent that your work is now an unsafe place for you so conservatives should keep any chat about their guns to themselves, I'm sorry, but you are having an extreme emotional response disconnected from reason. Aka hysterical. > I can easily imagine a non-hysterical person feeling threatened if they have zero experience with gun owners and zero context with which to personally relate to gun owners Look, I can see how someone might have been brainwashed to find all guns so scary that the concept of someone near them who isn't a police officer having access seems like a direct threat to them...just like I can see someone being so brainwashed as to view all African-Americans as innately dangerous and feeling unsafe working with them. But in both cases I'd claim you are being irrational to an extreme sufficient to call your reaction hysterical.
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supercanuck 8y ago
there is a big difference between, i like to shoot guns in the woods on weekends and gun ranges so i can learn to defend myself and lets arm kindergarten teachers to prevent school shootings the second makes me question your judgement, but that is exactly the sort of discussions going on in politics today
masonic 8y ago
conservative ideas are Perceived to be more controversial by other side then other way around You're saying that conservatives are more open-minded than the other side, then.
rubbingalcohol 8y ago
Though it gets murky when it's standard-fare for your coworkers to have Twitter accounts blasting their extreme leftist ideological beliefs. Or perhaps you take issue with one-sided moderation policy that bans syndicated political cartoonists but consistently allows violent threats against conservatives like Dana Loesch - but bringing up such concerns would get you railroaded out of the company like James Damore. Real-world examples of individuals who have had their careers destroyed by just questioning the moral majority creates a hostile work environment, self-censorship, and ultimately mediocrity as your company blindly alienates potentially half its U.S. consumer-base and decays into irrelevance. That sort of scenario works itself out in the end, so it's fine by me.
jerkstate 8y ago
If someone shares an anti-gun opinion, it could be construed that they do not think people should have a right to effective self-defense, which could also be perceived as a threatening position.

def_ConGame 8y ago

In order to feel safe expressing your opinions, you have to feel like you won't raise an eyebrow. Either that, or any owner of a raised eyebrow won't take it any further than the mild disagreement of raising an eyebrow. It's really obvious that not only is it not possible to say whatever you want at work, but that in some cases, raising an eyebrow is the last thing you will ever do, at least within the context of one's career. The tension at hand is founded in things that simply will not be happening any time soon. But unpredictable reactions to minor slights set people on edge all around. The polarity is highly charged, even though no one really has murder and beatings high on their list of priorities, the paranoia and suspicion that the other side does is what leaves us destabilized. Homosexuality, abortion, race, evolution, genetics, how the universe began, and where do we go when we die. Talking about these things at work is a mistake, but even joking about "the wrong opinion" will completely ruin you in less than an hour, so trying to feel safe about having an opinion is a bad idea, whether you feel you're on the right side of history or not.

titusjohnson 8y ago

Are they talking about Conservatives (basically a Progressive, but slower) or Right Wing Nationalists. It's really hard to tell these days. Right wingers desperately want to be known as conservative, it's like camo. Unfortunately Conservatives haven't defended their party vigorously enough and excised the cancer, so now when someone says "I'm a Conservative!" it's basically impossible to tell if we're talking about someone who wants to cut back spending, or someone who wants to take a kickback or million via private contract, a literal goddamn nazi, or a kiddie diddler. > Twitter CEO: right wing nationalist employees ‘dont feel safe to express their opinions’

cargo8 8y ago
That's literally the point. Because of reactions like yours (specifically that last line re-paraphrasing), anyone on the conservative spectrum is now afraid to express their opinions or reveal such information
- amaccuish 8y ago
  Just because someone says they're "conservative" doesn't mean I'll sit quiet while they tell me about how disgusting it is that the gays can marry now. But the thing is, originally, "conservatives" weren't like that. They've had their good name stolen by a bunch of thugs.
  - morgtheborg 8y ago
    Look, it's HARD to see the other side. I get it. But take a beat. No one is asking you to sit quietly. Your welcome to disagree. We expect the conservative to be able to hear about your approval (from their perspective) of the violent murder of babies for your personal convenience without losing their ability to work with you effectively as a co-worker and treat you with dignity while disagreeing. It's fair to think there'd be reciprocity and you should be able to do the same when they discuss gay marriage. Usually when I point the above out, I'm told that OF COURSE it's cool to expect the conservative to handle talk of abortion or public approval of abortions "appropriately" in the workplace because their perspective it's murder is merely an opinion---and a wrong one at that. But your perspective that gay marriage is not a sin is a FACT, not an opinion, so they should suck it up and keep their filthy biases to themselves. Unsurprisingly, conservatives do not appreciate the attitude that their opinions are wrong and should be hidden as shameful secrets and liberal opinions are right and should be trumpeted from the roof.

magissima 8y ago

Good.

sitkack 8y ago

Part of being a conservative is strength. If you don't have that fortitude, you are conservative only in name.

platinumrad 8y ago
This might actually be the most meaningless platitude anyone has ever said.
- anoncoward111 8y ago
  Completely agree. It is never a good idea to generalize a population based on some label.
- dang 8y ago
  Maybe so, but please don't call names in HN comments. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
sdinsn 8y ago
> Part of being a conservative is strength Um, no? Where did you get that from?

root_axis 8y ago

Conservatives are ostensibly opposed to the idea of safe spaces, so how do we reconcile that ideology with the fact that they want safe spaces in communities where they are the minority?

geebee 8y ago
There may be some ambiguity in the way you're using the phrase "safe space".
Mononokay 8y ago
I hate to generalize; and overall I think the world could do a lot better if we could bait either side into listening to one another, but it's undeniably on average the same reason they want to deny social media companies the right to refrain from serving people they don't want to, but openly advocate for companies being able to not serve LGBT people: "But it's them!"
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morgtheborg 8y ago
> safe spaces I'm not sure "safe space" is the right word. People lose jobs, housing opportunities, and professional connections for being conservative in the Bay Area. There's a damn good reason to be afraid and it isn't about our "feelings". There are professional repercussions.
- root_axis 8y ago
  > People lose jobs, housing opportunities, and professional connections for being conservative in the Bay Area Sounds to me like literally the exact same thing the left claims about being black or a woman in contexts where the conservative ideology is more pervasive.
  - morgtheborg 8y ago
    I'm sure that's true. I haven't personally lived in a conservative area in America for any extended period of time. Hopefully we can both agree these are bad things to occur due to race, gender, sex, political orientation, etc. You should be judged for how you treat and speak to people, not for your political opinions. I've worked with men that genuinely believe that women should not be educated and just stay home with children. Whatever. They treated women well in class and outside of class and THAT is what they should be judged on for jobs, housing, and connections --- not their personal opinions when they vote.

throwaway2975 8y ago

I think we have reached the point where being on the conservative side of US politics means more, a lot more, than just having "different political opinions". Am I so wrong for thinking the conservative side of US politics demonstrates a lack empathy towards the poor, minorities, and women on a regular basis? In comparison to the left? Edit: My wording is poor, but I'm mostly concerned about those who have the power to pass legislation that affects others. In other words, politicians, not citizens who vote.

albertop 8y ago
You forgotten to put <sarcasm> or are you trolling? :-)
- throwaway2975 8y ago
  I'm hoping to combat my bias with new perspective. I would like to be convinced that people who identify as Republican aren't more likely to be racist or misogynistic people.
  - pizzazzaro 8y ago
    I think "adventured" shows you what we're dealing with. There is no respect for the fact that some members of our society continue to enjoy certain advantages. When you're the one who recieves such, this is subtle. Telling people about the racist history behind zip codes can be a hard conversation. Telling white people about the way black families have "the talk" about being careful not to spook police, or white people who call police simply for being black... That's a hard conversation. Telling my fellow white men about how women have their own version of "the talk" about walking down the street alone in more communities than you realize... That's often a hard conversation. The talk about how the poor deal with more expenses, more physical pain, less power to demand basic humanity from shittier bosses... As a car-dweller with a full-time job on the East Coast, I've had to deliver it repeatedly. Nobody helps, unless you can earn the trust of others in a similar situation. And car-dwellers move around too much to make those relationships. Nobody had these hard conversations with me growing up. I had black friends, activists, girlfriends that informed me about how my own neighbors live. I didnt always take it well at the time, but I did grow from the experience. And no matter how much we rage about it on twitter in our safe little bubbles, nobody that needs this revelation is going to hear it anywhere but in person. The subgroup of Conservatives whose ideology boils down to "screw you, I got mine" is just Sociopathy claiming Righteousness via deformed Capitalism. These people need to be called out as the anti-patriots they are.

jakelazaroff 8y ago

Is he referring to "conservative opinions" as in economic issues and foreign policy, or just racism/sexism/etc? Somehow I don't believe that conservative employees are scared of expressing support for tax cuts or right-to-work laws.

morgtheborg 8y ago
> racism/sexism/etc Quite a few conservative positions are put under the heading sexist/racist/etc unfairly. It's a pretty neat way to stop conversation in its tracks.
- amaccuish 8y ago
  Mind providing some examples? Trying to understand.
  - morgtheborg 8y ago
    Pro-life as a man = sexist because you're trying to control women Strict immigration laws, particularly around deportation or punishments for illegal entrance = racist Lowering or abolishing minimum wage = racist and you hate the poor Any comment on Islam that isn't rah-rah = racist (which is fascinating since religion != race, but there you go) Death Penalty = racist (disproportionate representation of African-Americans on death row) Religious as a man = usually leads to sexist claims if a member of a conservative sect As a white woman who tries hard to find common ground before disagreeing, has lived extensively in different African countries, and firmly believes we are ALL sexist and racist, I tend to get more attacks that I'm heartless and/or brainwashed. I try to defang the racist/sexist attacks right off the bat by getting mutual agreement that we all are and our job is to work on offsetting it as much as possible. But my white male SO who, God help him, isn't willing to do the 10-20 minute reassurance dance before getting to the actual debate? My God, he can't even TALK about most of these issues without getting labeled something horrible or a shut down of "check your privilege" that, if he ignores it, leads to some kind of racist/sexist label.
    - 8y ago

jonathankoren 8y ago

I notice the same dynamics are playing out on social media that played out in traditional media years ago. Conservatives cry bias, without evidence that any bias is appearing in the actual product. As Rich Bond said over 25 years ago[0]: “There is some strategy to it [bashing the 'liberal' media] ... If you watch any great coach, what they try to do is 'work the refs.' Maybe the ref will cut you a little slack on the next one.” It’s a useful myth, where blatantly partisan Fox News bills itself as “fair and balanced”. I’ve seen this play out in my own career where, claims of political bias was cast against algorithms I developed because random extreme partisan website wasn’t being put in the top slot for a trending topic. It was disingenuous criticism. We’re seeing the same thing again because foreign troll farms are being shutdown, you find yourself in a minority, the. You have to look to some grand conspiracy because your filter bubble was popped. There’s nothing here but the old tired tactic of promoting a false equivalence, which is paying political dividends. See Facebook’s fact checking partners, 4 respected non partisan orgs, and the explicitly conservativly partisan Weekly Standard, which used its veto against an explicitly liberally partisan organization.[1] It’s really weird to have a partisan org on your ostensibly nonpartisan editorial board. It does make sense if you’re throwing conservatives a bone by giving them a vote and not a liberal org. So the refs are successfully worked. When it comes to Twitter itself, Jack has shown through his actions that he either fundamentally misunderstand what is going on, or he actually supports the extreme views on his site. [0] https://archives.cjr.org/politics/a_cynics_take_on_media_bias.php https://archives.cjr.org/politics/a_cynics_take_on_media_bia... [1] https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/9/12/17848026/facebook-thinkprogress-weekly-standard https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/9/12/17848026/f...

pr0tonic 8y ago

Seeing how the quickly the comments in this thread have devolved into calling conservatives all kinds of derogatory names is a good example why conservative Twitter employees might be afraid to express their opinions. The place of my employment, like most tech companies is overwhelmingly liberal. I dont even identify as liberal or conservative and I am afraid to express any opinion that is contrary to liberal thought. The problem is not that I may have a minority opinion at work, it's how common it's become with people on the left to try and ruin those who hold the "wrong" opinions usually by trying to get them fired and going on social media to call them all sorts of nasty things. Sadly I think my anecdote is more of the norm than the exception in liberal dominated spaces.

BadassFractal 8y ago
Jonathan Haidt has a great concept for this "trying to get people fired at all costs by taking the most offense and doing the worst read of something someone said". He calls it the "prestige economy", where one gains great prestige in the eyes of one's group by calling out someone for being racist/sexist etc., even when the caller KNOWS (he references the Dean of Claremont McKenna getting fired as example) that's not at all what that person intended. Intent doesn't matter in that world view, and it becomes all about gaining prestige through intentional (or maybe not) misinterpretation of their position. It's a dangerous game to play, and I can't see it leading to anything but the worst tribalism and division among well-meaning people.
atomi 8y ago
Conservatives have let illiberalism take over their party. The US was founded on liberal idealism - that all men are created equal then later a liberal conservative, Lincoln followed that same ideal. That's always been our ideal. How is it that people surprised that illiberal conservatives are reviled when they go against the very values this country was founded on?
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realComfort 8y ago

[flagged] [dead]

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russellbeattie 8y ago

LOL! Anyone in this thread who uses the actual words describing what "conservative opinions" really are get downvoted. I guess we'll have to play the conservative euphemism game! Instead of xenophobic, you should say 'supports strong borders'. Instead of sexist, you should say 'believes in right to life'. Instead of homophobic, you should say 'follows traditional family roles as set by the bible'. Instead of racist, you should say 'prefers real Americans'. Instead of hates the poor, you should say 'believes in supply side economics and welfare reform'. Instead of spiteful, ignorant, unreasonable liars, you should say 'fair and balanced'.

sdinsn 8y ago
You are part of the problem.
- dang 8y ago
  Personal attacks will get you banned on HN, regardless of how right your views are. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and don't do this again.

sdinsn 8y ago

At my work, talking about politics is just not allowed. More places should follow this. There's nothing good that can come of it.

chrisco255 8y ago
I think ideally, people would realize that there's human beings who disagree with them, that aren't terrible people. Maybe that's too much to ask in today's climate?
- sdinsn 8y ago
  I agree, but I don't think that will happen

threatofrain 8y ago

Is conservatism a strong or coherent identity outside of Christianity? I feel like when people say "conservative" it muddles what things mean to an outside audience. It's just like when people say religious, but they really mean Christian.

gwright 8y ago
Yes. But I would also agree that many of the terms, such as "conservative", that are thrown around in public debate are not very well defined or are often interpreted in very different ways by different people.
neonate 8y ago
There are plenty of non-Christian conservatives.

dang 8y ago

All: Hacker News is a place for community members to hear and understand each other. If you want to fight, please fight elsewhere. Regardless of how right you are or feel, if you can't muster tolerance or empathy for the other side, please don't post here until you can. You might not owe it to them, but you do owe it to the community.