15 ms·

YouTube stars heading for burnout

140 points by cirrus-clouds 8y ago

Ricardus 8y ago
I don't find this surprising. When I started podcasting in 2005, even doing a weekly 'cast with my friend and co-host was a lot of work. We also had day jobs. But the pressure to create content was still there. These full time youtubers must feel in 100x more, particularly if they have Patreon people to keep happy. We derived no income from our show, and in fact it cost us money to produce. In some ways I wish some of these monetizing platforms existed when we were around. It would have been fun to see if we could have gone anywhere with it. But then we might have succumb to these issues, as well. I guess it all comes back to "Be careful what you wish for..."
- always_good 8y ago
  > they have Patreon people to keep happy Reminds me of when I briefly accepted donations from users of my forum. Suddenly it was like my life was beholden to people that had once given me $5. At least when they'd given me $0, it was pretty straightforward to dismiss their complaints and they'd looked silly when they'd demanded more of my free time. But once they gave >$0, the water got murky. I ended up refunding everyone a few months later and I generally roll my eyes when I see posts like "um why not just take donations?" on HN. It's just not no-strings-attached money like people seem to think it is. It's more akin to selling a service for peanuts, it rears the same issues.
  - progval 8y ago
    I have the same issue. A partial solution is to only accept anonymous donations (eg. on Liberapay). Even better if you have multiple projects and don't know which one is getting you the donations.
  - AgentME 8y ago
    This makes me think of how moot (creator of 4chan) was against receiving donations from 4chan users, presumably because of this type of issue. He later started selling "4chan passes" which added certain specific features to the site. I think that was a very clever way to go about it: the people who bought them couldn't demand moot's attention. They got a very specific thing out of their money and everyone knew that. Considering these cases, I think it makes sense to make sure that whenever one accepts donations, they make it very explicit what the donator can rightfully expect. That could be as little as a token set of extra features, a badge on their user profile, or just warm fuzzy feelings without extra attention.
    - noobermin 8y ago
      Perhaps a different mentality for donations helps too. People who solicit donations should somehow communicate that you are not buying a service of some kind, they are donating to you, so you're free to take the money and do whatever. It's a strange thing however when people donate a pittance (five dollars or ten dollars or something) and then expect so much for it. When you pay five dollars for a coffee, you are at least paying for something. But the word "donation" never seemed to me like it carried any serious commitment on the part of the recipient. Perhaps the only thing the donor can expect is the recipient is to continue whatever they were doing. Beyond that it's ridiculous.
  - noobermin 8y ago
    A podcast I know of has a "membership" concept which gives extra content. Once, an angry member sent an email deriding changes in the show that the rest of us enjoyed (specifically, antics by one of the co-hosts). The main host derided their email on air, saying that they'd gladly let go of the donor's membership[0]. I know you can't really do that if everyone is complaining about the same thing--in which the situation reaches a different regime, but for one off complaints, you'd be surprised how much people will recognize the bullshit and welcome your explanations how you can't please every one-off suggestion. [0] Of course, they kindly did not identify the angry member.
- Ricardus 8y ago
  If my friend wanted to start producing content again, I'd do it in a second. Getting together for a few hours a week to create a ~45 minute podcast was tons of fun, and the conversation was very therapeutic. I enjoyed the conversation. The back and forth. Many people have suggested I do something on my own, but I have no idea what that would be. And with stories like these, I'm less likely to dive in. I'm an audio engineer so I enjoy the production end of things, but I enjoy video editing less than straight up audio editing. But people are suggesting I do some sort of youtube channel. Ah, who knows! :-)
sigi45 8y ago
"most fun job"? There are many reasons why I don't work as a YouTuber. And I do not wanna be a "star"
- craftyguy 8y ago
  I'm sure there are tons of people who would say the same thing about whatever it is you do. Different strokes for different folks.
  - sigi45 8y ago
    Exactly but i don't say: "Software engineering is the most fun job".
vanilla-almond 8y ago
The BBC made a brilliant spoof series on becoming a YouTube vlogger called 'Pls Like'. The whole thing is available on YouTube to watch (not geo-blocked as far I know). It's 6 episodes of 15 mins each. No matter which country you're from, you'll recognise all the vlogger types in the series: the lifestyle vlogger, the fashion vlogger, the prankster etc. It actually touches on a lot of the issues in the Guardian article: the need for views, the pressure to make content 'viral', sponsored content, rivalry between vloggers. It's all done with a lot of humour while highlighting these issues. I thoroughly recommend it (and in case you are wondering, the vloggers are all actors, not real vloggers): https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL64ScZt2I7wFF538Kn0TRqDyv2TbNuemk https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL64ScZt2I7wFF538Kn0TR...
- chii 8y ago
  pretty damn well made series!
anonymous5133 8y ago
If they feel burnout then they should just stop making videos for awhile or move on to doing something else.
- wgerard 8y ago
  > stop making videos for awhile It has a huge detrimental effect. Each day you take a break can set you back by several. From the article: >> “I left for less than 48 hours and lost 40,000 subscribers on Twitch. I’ll be back today… grinding again.” > move on to doing something else There's not a clear career path to anything else. Many of them have spent their formative adult years streaming, and transitioning to another career would be incredibly difficult and likely pay significantly less. Sure, there are the mega-streamers who have (hopefully) saved enough money that they could absorb that gigantic setback, or have enough celebrity that they can transition to something else, but I doubt the majority of them have earned enough to support a major life transition - like, say, going back to school full-time. This is also one of the problems former professional athletes face, and there are actually a lot of interesting parallels between the two groups. "Broke" is a really interesting watch if you haven't seen it already that is quite eye-opening: http://www.espn.com/30for30/film?page=broke http://www.espn.com/30for30/film?page=broke
  - anonymous5133 8y ago
    Umm yeah, I still think they should move on. If you hate doing something then why continue doing it? Best to shift into an occupation you enjoy. I don't really think youtube or twitch were even meant to be full-time occupations to begin with.
    - wgerard 8y ago
      > If you hate doing something then why continue doing it? Best to shift into an occupation you enjoy This describes, likely, a large portion of the workforce in general and isn't specific to streamers. The answer, of course, is that it pays the bills and it's really hard to: 1) Figure out what it is that you'd actually enjoy 2) Figure out how to make money doing that
wybiral 8y ago
In my experience the frustrating part about YouTube is when the crowd wants content that you're not interested in making. For instance, I've made a few videos about building clusters from Raspberry Pi's, which I did just for kicks and to have something to play around with. They get more attention than my (imo more interesting) videos about programming or various other electronics topics, to the point that it dwarfs my other views. So I have to choose between disappointing the majority of my subscribers or making content that I don't actually enjoy or stand by just for the views. PS: I also learned very quickly that the YouTube comments section is chaotic and is not a recommended place for someone looking for thoughtful critique on their material.
- pmoriarty 8y ago
  "I also learned very quickly that the YouTube comments section is chaotic and is not a recommended place for someone looking for thoughtful critique on their material." YouTube's comments are some of the absolute worst I've seen on the web. It's interesting that YouTube has made no effective efforts to improve their quality. You'd think the site as a whole could benefit tremendously from quality comments, but apparently that is not a priority.
  - fl0wenol 8y ago
    YouTube comments do not scale for moderation; its such a huge platform that it's likely not profitable to pay people to put a dent in it. Instead they expect the content creators to do it if they care to shape their own image.
  - TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
    The article wonders if YouTube has a deliberate trollbait policy for its comments because it "improves engagement." So it's possible that civil comments are not just not a priority, but actively contraindicated.
    - tehwebguy 8y ago
      The answer is yes. Dislikes allegedly count 100% as much for the engagement algo as likes.
sidstling 8y ago
I respect people who have the ability to entertain thousands of viewers, I really do. At the same time I’m really happy that wasn’t even an option when I was young. I’m sure I would have spent even more time playing video games if esports, twitch and YouTube had been a thing in the 90ies. I know, I know, not everyone is alike, but at age 35 I’m really happy that my job involves serious adult challenges, and that my success in life isn’t depending on thousands of teenagers pushing a like button.
- wybiral 8y ago
  > my success in life isn’t depending on thousands of teenagers pushing a like button In a certain sense, though, most serious adult business still boils down to people seeing an ad, installing an app, buying a product, attracting investors, or teenagers clicking a like button. Edit: The YouTubers who go on to do it at a more serious capacity will also learn valuable first-hand lessons in dealing with partnerships, sponsors, public relations, release cycles, etc. All of which are useful depending on what it is that you want to do in your career.
  - lsc 8y ago
    >In a certain sense, though, most serious adult business still boils down to people seeing an ad, installing an app, buying a product, attracting investors, or teenagers clicking a like button. I mean, yes, I'm part of the machine, and the machine does sell advertising. But I'm a little cog in a big machine, and there are a lot of other cogs between me and the teenagers and their like buttons. A long time ago, I wrote a technical book. One of the weirdest things to me was just how much reading the amazon reviews hurt. Like, they were mostly positive, but the negative ones, even negative reviews that as a buyer I would dismiss as 'clearly nutso' really hurt in a deeply irrational way. At my dayjob? not only is it someone else's job to worry about that sort of thing, the volume involved would make it almost impossible for me to consume the feedback in anything other than a statistically sampled sort of way, even if it was my job.
  - noobermin 8y ago
    If you think this is problematic, say, providing for teenagers to click like buttons rather than confronting global warming or extreme wealth inequality, the question then is why do things have to be this way?
umvi 8y ago
I've noticed a few big YouTubers talking about burnout. Smooth McGroove most recently comes to mind.
miguelmota 8y ago
Because nothing is more important than spending countless hours on the internet seeking validation from strangers
jarjoura 8y ago
How is this different than any other prestigious high performance job? Okay great, you busted your ass and you made it to the top, and now you have to bust your ass to stay there. I also don’t really think it’s fair to attach YouTube to the title. This article can be applied to all social media celebrities in all their various platforms.
stephengillie 8y ago
> Like all YouTubers, Morton also feels the financial pressure of the system, which typically pays between £1.50 and £3 for every 1,000 views. Based on this, creators have to be close to the 1 million views per month mark to be making over $24,000 per year. It's no secret that YouTube is wildly unprofitable, from every angle. In a way, it's a transfer of wealth from AdWords, so our society is paying for YouTube through ads; just mostly not through the ads on YouTube.
- dogma1138 8y ago
  YouTube is unprofitable if you look at direct compensation alone, if you have even 1M views per year not to mention a month you can find partnerships and sponsorships. I don't understand why people think YouTube should pay more, the vast majority of YT content doesn't cost anything to create nor does it generate any revenue for YT. Besides the really large channels the best thing one can do is to run a channel is parallel to their business and in support of it which is what many of the smaller DYI/Maker/Professional/Vocational channels do you run a machine shop you make a few videos per month and you draw more business rather than rely on ad revenue.
  - stephengillie 8y ago
    > the vast majority of YT content doesn't cost anything to create And does that painfully show. You basically have to build a small TV studio, or invest in computer graphics software and skills, to produce good content on a regular basis. And good writing also. None of these things are free. And this devalues the time of these independent video producers, They could be producing high value for another business, with appropriate compensation.
judNell 8y ago
Ninja, makes an estimated $500,000 (£384,000) every month via live broadcasts of him playing the video game Fortnite on Twitch, a service for livestreaming video games that is owned by Amazon. Most of Blevins’ revenue comes from Twitch subscribers or viewers who provide one-off donations (often in the hope that he will thank them by name “on air”). There is something fantastically wrong about the way internet economies operate. In the same way so many other sub-economies panhandle, in exchange for absolutely nothing.
williesleg 8y ago
Yeah, they need writers, agents, Russian protection, and a union. Then they'll be just like Hollywood.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
ravenstine 8y ago
> Divisive content is the king of online media today, and YouTube heavily boosts anything that riles people up [...] I look upon this idea skeptically. In my experience, the content delivered to me is as divisive as the videos I've already watched. If someone is getting divisive content, that's probably the content that they want to watch. Is it really up to YouTube to determine if a person has been watching content that's too divisive, like a bartender who cuts off a someone who's had too many drinks? When I log out of my YouTube account or open YouTube in incognito mode, all I see are viral videos and nothing that's "divisive". For example, the YouTube homepage without being logged in shows prank videos, Rube Goldberg type fascination videos, educational videos, Mexican music, daytime TV crap, SNL skits, and pop music. So basically, in order to get to the divisive stuff, you have to already be using search queries that will bring one to political commentators. But then what should be done? If someone is watching a lot of videos by the far left, should the recommended videos proportionally include more videos by right wing commentators? Is this really what people want? Sorry that this is tangental from the actual point of the article, but I've read of this idea multiple times before and it's always asserted as if it's a matter of fact, but I'm not sure I buy it.
- richthegeek 8y ago
  I find that once Youtube thinks you want divisive content, it serves it up to you pretty regularly. As an example, I have plenty of "X riles up SJWs" type videos and also their counterpart "X angers sexist Gamergaters" despite not watching these and trying to actively say "don't show me these things". Unfortunately, one bad click from Reddit and Youtube thinks I want this tripe. It's not solely related to "divisive" content though - the same is true of content related to Fortnite, Buzzfeed, and anything else that mostly consists of clickbait content. Youtube is just optimising for engagement, regardless of how that engagement affects the viewer.
- lsc 8y ago
  >I look upon this idea skeptically. In my experience, the content delivered to me is as divisive as the videos I've already watched. If someone is getting divisive content, that's probably the content that they want to watch. Just a counterpoint, I think it depends largely on the subject matter. my 'disengage the brain' videos are mostly tool teardowns and slow-motion videos of milling machines, or reviews of '90s luxury cars. If I let youtube pick the next video a few times in a row while I'm watching car videos, I end up in supercar land, (which is not very much fun for me, but not divisive or anything.) If I let youtube pick the next video a few times while watching tool teardowns, I sometimes end up with more interesting tool talk, but I often get survivalist stuff, and sometimes 'sovereign citizen' stuff starts to creep in.
epx 8y ago
I have an YouTube channel, mostly for personal stuff. I did some effort to record some videos about several subjects, none had more than a hundred viewers. Then, in a sudden, a very shaky and short video with a Mallet steam locomotive punctured the Algorithm Wall and had thousands of views per day... I was even making $20/mo off YouTube until the early 2018 changes took place. And the fact is, divisive content is king these days. Nobody, humans or algorithms, are interested in balanced opinions these days.
- pandapower2 8y ago
  >these days. Doubt they ever were.
- api 8y ago
  How many of the Nazis and other super divisive youtubers do you think are faking it or hamming it up for clicks? I do sometimes wonder "do these people actually believe this crap?" Same goes for totally outlandish conspiracy theories. Controversy has always sold, but never before has the feedback loop been so tight.
  - fragsworth 8y ago
    Not believing what you speak is a huge enthusiasm killer, and enthusiasm is most of what makes a good video. I'd guess almost all of the people with growing channels believe what they speak, and anyone on the fence might even subconsciously start believe what their audience wants.
    - madeuptempacct 8y ago
      Except I can fake enthusiasm easily. I don't because it's deceptive. I feel like I am lying to someone when I fake enthusiasm. Doesn't go over all that well in most settings, since most people do fake it.
      - y2bd 8y ago
        I think OP means more personal enthusiasm, as in being driven to make videos at all. No benefit in being able to fake a smile if you never end up recording yourself in the first place. ...at the same time though, a ton of money and attention might be enough to get over making personally uninteresting content. I guess that's pretty much how careers are for most people.
menacingly 8y ago
This is an interesting story, definitely worth a click, but isn't it sort of also just the fundamental issues humans face in all pursuits that are based on interest? I feel like you'd get the same spirit of complaint from a disenchanted musician, actor, chef, or even entrepreneur. "It's a lot harder than I thought. The market's tastes are fickle, I've got to make stuff to please them instead of things that creatively satisfy me. If I stop relentlessly competing I can't pay my bills" I'm older than the average youtube star, but I don't begrudge their success or view them as trivial people like a lot of my peers. That said, perhaps it's the _initial_ grand slam success and money that is the aberration (like app store hits at their peak), and the "bad side" is simply a sort of market correction where you've got to do unenjoyable things roughly commensurate with the payoff.
- pandapower2 8y ago
  The story of these youtubers certainly has strong echoes of other show business type careers. >creators feel disposable ... in the knowledge that there are younger, fresher people waiting in the wings to replace them. That sounds a lot like actors in particular. Today's hot new star is tomorrow's has been.
- pdimitar 8y ago
  Over the last several years I gradually changed from being very salty and grumpy -- "FFS, these goofy kids get to squeal on air and get rich and buy a house I won't likely have at 50, WTF is that!!!" -- to basically accepting how most of our current world's economy works and I moved to the milder attitude of "hey, if you can make it work then more power to you, and good job!". I think the only bad thing in this picture is their initial huge success, like you seem to believe as well. This produces very unrealistic future expectations and the cognitive dissonance becomes nigh-impossible to face in the aftermath. This leads to articles such as this one. In my eyes everybody should learn to work hard and the value of money but some are skipping these steps with a big initial success and when reality finally kicks in, they are much less prepared to face it. Sad, but it's part of one's own personal development. Can't be avoided.
  - projektir 8y ago
mancerayder 8y ago
The anxieties are tied up with the relentless nature of their work. Tyler Blevins, AKA Ninja, makes an estimated $500,000 (£384,000) every month via live broadcasts of him playing the video game Fortnite on Twitch, a service for livestreaming video games that is owned by Amazon. Most of Blevins’ revenue comes from Twitch subscribers or viewers who provide one-off donations (often in the hope that he will thank them by name “on air”). Blevins recently took to Twitter to complain that he didn’t feel he could stop streaming. “Wanna know the struggles of streaming over other jobs?” he wrote, perhaps ill-advisedly for someone with such a stratospheric income. “I left for less than 48 hours and lost 40,000 subscribers on Twitch. I’ll be back today… grinding again.” This fits into the stereotype of Millennials as entitled. He makes 500k a month, but can't get off the hamster wheel? Poor soul.
- da02 8y ago
  Is that after or before taxes?
  - mancerayder 8y ago
    Before, no doubt. After, his existential travails only take more toll on his smug fatigue level.
  - EpicEng 8y ago
    Does it matter?
  - runevault 8y ago
    Before for certain.
  - TrainedMonkey 8y ago
    Before taxes, he has about 100k subs who contribute around $5 each. Loosing 40k subs is pretty significant, however I am not sure how that is possible in just 2 days. While there is an option to auto renew most twitch subscribers are not automatic, a person is usually watching the stream and chooses to subscribe. When subscription expires they can do so again. Assuming 140k subs are evenly distributed throughout the month the loss from not streaming for 48 hours should be 2/30 * 140k, this comes down to slightly less than 10k. Moreover most of these subs should rejoin once he starts streaming again. You can see detailed breakdown here: https://twitchstats.net/subs/ninja https://twitchstats.net/subs/ninja
mancerayder 8y ago
The anxieties are tied up with the relentless nature of their work. Tyler Blevins, AKA Ninja, makes an estimated $500,000 (£384,000) every month via live broadcasts of him playing the video game Fortnite on Twitch, a service for livestreaming video games that is owned by Amazon. Most of Blevins’ revenue comes from Twitch subscribers or viewers who provide one-off donations (often in the hope that he will thank them by name “on air”). Blevins recently took to Twitter to complain that he didn’t feel he could stop streaming. “Wanna know the struggles of streaming over other jobs?” he wrote, perhaps ill-advisedly for someone with such a stratospheric income. “I left for less than 48 hours and lost 40,000 subscribers on Twitch. I’ll be back today… grinding again.” This fits into the stereotype of Millennials as entitled. He makes 500k a month, but can't get off the hamster wheel? Poor soul.
pavanlimo 8y ago
As with everything else there is always a spectrum and this represents the dark end of the spectrum. I follow a bunch of tech youtubers (like MKBHD) who represent the happy side of the spectrum.
- darkmighty 8y ago
  The main problem is it's self-managed work. Given lack of advisory and guidance, or the structure of conventional workplaces and school, many people will mismanage their work-life balance. Even with structure I have problems sometimes managing my overall workload and side projects. It's certainly not Youtube at fault here, but it's definitely a valid issue every independent worker has to face. Discussion and exchanging solutions is a good thing.
amarand 8y ago
I'd watched a few videos talking about the old-time YouTube content generators in the "Wild West" of the site, compared with the current grind. They tweaked things so it only seems to make sense - monetization-wise - to be a content generator if you're able to keep up with posting high-quality content daily. Myself, I'd want to post great videos that people enjoy, and if the following grows, great! If not, I would just do what I want to do. If something else is more fun, I'll do that. But I'm not sure it's a good idea to try to make YouTube videos a work-from-home paying gig unless you really enjoy whatever content you're generating. And making regular, high-quality videos is a lot of work, not to mention regular, meaningful content that people with engage with. Otherwise, you're just screaming into the void.
- elboru 8y ago
  I don't like how youtubers feel obligated to produce a certain amount of videos per week. I would prefer one or two videos per month with good quality than three or four per week with clickbait titles.
village-idiot 8y ago
Sometimes the most bitter poison is everything you’d ever asked for. Humans really are terrible at estimating what will make them happy.
- pdimitar 8y ago
  Well it's all phases, is it not? Who says you will have a perfect idea at 16 about what will make you happy until you die? That's definitely not how humans work. All of us know people who did U-turns in their lives at 30+. Some even at 50 or 60.
  - village-idiot 8y ago
    There’s that, but some of the research I’ve read says that humans are really bad at predicting how future events will affect their emotional state, regardless of age.
profosaur 8y ago
Stay strong, the Tech Lead, if you are out there.
- oceanman888 8y ago
  Are you talking about youtube channel thetechlead?
kragormonkey 8y ago
I wonder if this is specific to YouTube in any way. E.g., I'd stop visiting xkcd if Randall didn't keep uploading regularly. Most open source projects (including mine) turn into GitHub graveyard because we can't provide even the most basic maintenance and support. Lots of traditional-media pop stars have also famously burnt out. In general, it is hard work to cultivate a proper institution that spreads out the load and makes this sustainable. And the skill for managing that is never really taught anywhere. Most "lone artists" don't even realize it's needed until it's too late. And that's where most of this frustration stems from. Culturally we focus too much on that one "big break", or the "eureka moment".
mikekchar 8y ago
As stupid as this is going to sound, I think about this quite a bit in terms of writing a blog. I've wanted to do it for a long time and in the past people have been very kind and supportive of my writing. However, when I think about the reality of what it takes to make a successful blog, I get very nervous about it. I mean, it's dumb because the chances of writing a successful blog is next to nil. And the way to exit the scene is easy: stop writing content. But it's the path that worries me. You need to write a lot of relevant content -- almost certainly more content than you can reasonably think about critically. You will be judged on that content. If you make a mistake or change your mind, then you can be treated very harshly. It seems that the masses have this binary view of their celebrities: genius or moron. The more popular you get, the more people have you in their sights aiming to plonk you firmly in the latter category. For a long time, I've spent ridiculous amounts of time writing in safe havens like HN comment sections: because I truly love writing. I like thinking about stuff and breaking it down. I like explaining the insights that I find. And most of all, I like the fact that somebody reads what I write. I like thinking that I've connected with somebody else who I don't even know. I seem to remember a set of rules for writers by Stephen King (although my recollection doesn't seem to match what Google returns to me). In one of them he says to prepare yourself for an unbelievable amount of criticism. It's this that worries me the most. I don't mind criticism, per se, but I don't want to have to deal with a reputation based on ideas formed from my prose. "He's the dufus who believes that unit tests shouldn't test requirements. What a moron," is fine when I'm dealing with people who know me. It's down right terrifying when dealing with people who are potentially going to interview me for a job :-) A slight miscalculation in how you describe something, a popular misconception arising from rumours of your writing, or even just having a derpy day because you didn't think it through before you put pen to paper... And suddenly, you are the moron in the eyes of millions. Like I said, it's putting the cart before the horse by a long, long way, but it still stops me from writing, which is a massive shame. Somehow I must overcome it (advice is welcome, BTW!)
- elvinyung 8y ago
  I relate to this so much. I look up so much to people like Scott Alexander (Slate Star Codex) and Murat Demirbas (Metadata) and innumerable multitudes of other writers and scholars, I think that I'll never get anywhere nearly as successful with my writing. But then I realized I very very much don't care about socially-constructed standards of success, and I just stop giving a shit and write what I want, when I want.
biql 8y ago
I guess any activity that requires repetition becomes bleak sooner or later because brain craves variety. I guess it can be the inner voice telling that by getting obsessed over only one thing, you can miss out the chance to explore other aspects of life. But as it has been said, everything sucks, most of the time we're simply choosing what sucks less.
- pdimitar 8y ago
  > I guess any activity that requires repetition becomes bleak sooner or later because brain craves variety. You nailed it. And that's a huge problem for the current economical state of affairs; people start enthusiastically but eventually want to move on. By that time however, they have a family to care for, mortgage where they cannot miss a single installment, are generally tired, and cannot afford to make a decisive U-turn in their lives. It's extremely saddening, I watched many bright and smiley people turn into grumpy drones because of that tendency. One of the worst things you could see in life. :(
elvinyung 8y ago
The neoliberal condition is in part characterized by the entrepreneurialization of everything, the penetration of Michel Foucault's homo economicus (entrepreneur of the self) into more and more spheres of production, consumption, and everyday life. Increasingly, you're an "entrepreneur" no matter what, whether you're a food truck owner, a freelance designer, an Uber driver, an Airbnb host, a YouTube star. Entrepreneur means a blurring of boundaries, working from home, homing from work. In my possibly-naive opinion, it wouldn't be such a problem, if only we didn't tie value and self-worth so much on work, both culturally and politically. This entrepreneurialization goes hand-in-hand with the condition of precarity, feeling like you have to work your ass off, have to stay at the top of your game, to keep making a living, because you have no other way to live. It is incredibly dangerous, and it's increasingly defining us, the millennial and post-millennial generations.
- AndrewKemendo 8y ago
  As a clarification, Foucault did not define the term Homo Economicus [1]. He used the concept from Economics to describe the atomization of the individual inside the capitalist state structure, in contest with the "State" as a push-pull with that power structure. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_economicus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_economicus
  - elvinyung 8y ago
    This is true, but I mostly know of the concept from Foucault's lectures in The Birth of Biopolitics (in particular the "atomization" aspect you mentioned), which I think is slightly different from those other definitions (which is also why I said "Foucault's").
    - AndrewKemendo 8y ago
      It's not so much different, as it's derivative and muddily so. Foucault had a tendency to re-define terms as he saw fit, irrespective of their historical use - as his philosophy would encourage - which is partly why the majority of his writing is so obtuse to other philosophers.
jsonne 8y ago
This article is really relatable. Personal story time. I recently had a mini hit on Reddit where I started a community that's about 2800 people who come to me for marketing tips every day. It's both exhilarating and terrifying. Having a community, making content about my passion, and being able to perform is really all I've ever wanted. On the other hand I'm insanely cognizant of losing it at any time. There is no break and I know even a slight lull can stop it before it ever really even gets close to its potential. God forbid I give bad advice, or someone 1 ups me in the comments and I'm no longer the expert. That combined with the fact that most marketing isn't all that interesting has me increasingly searching for more and more all the time ever cognizant I don't want to bore and lose my audience. I've been mitigating this by filming 3 videos a day and embracing an intentionally raw style, but it still requires daily upkeep in addition to my agency which demands 10 to 12 hours anyways. Don't get me wrong I love it and I'm insanely grateful, but there is a lot of stress that surrounds this sort of thing.
- coldtea 8y ago
  I think a lot of the concern for upkeep is simply overblown. I follow several vloggers, bloggers, etc. Once they've built a basic following, they can do whatever, even disappear for weeks or months, and still have most or all of their followers intact and craving for more content. I know, because me and tons of others, are waiting for new content from some such people who took huge break times off, and when it appears views always shoot through the roof. And I don't see Subscription counts fall of that much either (e.g. to the point that it makes any difference, e.g. going from 200K to 150K or so). It's easier to just ignore a channel that hasn't posted videos for a while, than to actively unsubscribe (besides, not getting posts is no reason to unsubscribe if you'd still like what they can possibly post in the future).
- gammatrigono 8y ago
  Are you being paid to run this community? nobody should be losing sleep over Reddit.
dogma1138 8y ago
Who knew hard work can be hard, this reads less like an actual deep analysis and more like people complaining they need to actually put in work to get paid. >‘invisible’ labour such as interacting with fans is ‘a major contributor to occupational stress. In many cases it can contribute to PTSD’. Are you kidding me? they are not fans they are your "customers" or at least your "consumers" public and customer relations are a key part of nearly every business out there that doesn't rely on accidental walk-ins for the majority of their business. If you can't handle it then hire someone who can or find another business, PTSD? from what? reading fan mail? even if it contains death threats you can't get PTSD from that there is no trauma, what you have here it just a lazy person that realized that omg running a business that serves tens of thousands of people daily is hard.
- CamperBob2 8y ago
  To be fair to the Youtube stars, this is exactly why famous authors and actors have publicity agents. The notion of celebrities interacting with the hoi polloi on a daily basis is a brand-new artifact of the Internet age. What's happening is that today's celebrities are learning why their predecessors locked themselves away in secluded Hollywood mansions and rode around wearing sunglasses in heavily-tinted limousines.
  - dogma1138 8y ago
    So do "YouTube stars" most of the large channels are run by media companies either established one or ones that was set up to support the channel. All the people they interviewed are relatively no-body they are small fish if anything their "mistake" wasn't taking it as a business they thought they can record a few videos on their phone edit them in FCP and make a metric ton of money hence the "winning the lottery" analogy that went through the article. There aren't shortcuts in life people shouldn't expect to get paid for little to no effort put in, and yes if you are reaching 50,000 people by selling yourself you need to be willing to well whore yourself out because you are the product, if you are running a tech channel or something similar then you often run it closer to say how a TV channel would be run with different shows/segments, you can and do hire additional hosts/anchors and eventually build a whole media production group. But even the "vlog" channels aren't a solo gig all the large ones did a behind the scenes videos which they showed just how many people are involved in producing those videos, if you have a revenue of say $500,000 you can't expect to be able to do on your own, even on half of that you can easily hire multiple people and still make a more than enough money. Cameramen/crew, editors people to handle PR and out reach can be hired for $50K even with experience and in reality much less especially considering that given the production scope you can afford to hire people straight out of college or even high school.
durzagott 8y ago
I've unwittingly enjoyed Matt Lee's content on 'Shut Up and Sit Down', a board game review channel. I've always found him, and his colleagues, really good at what they do and find it professional. I didn't know about Matt's background on Youtube, but a bit of Googling and I found he's had a really rough ride. As well as the stress and health problems others have mentioned, his wife also developed cancer a few years ago and was very close to dying. All the while he still manages to produce witty, engaging content for a fickle audience. Honestly, the guy deserves a bit more respect for his craft than the comments in this thread are giving.
0xBA5ED 8y ago
Surprise. It's just a new face on an ancient profession: Entertainment. And it comes with similar challenges.

140 points by cirrus-clouds 8y ago

I don't find this surprising. When I started podcasting in 2005, even doing a weekly 'cast with my friend and co-host was a lot of work. We also had day jobs. But the pressure to create content was still there. These full time youtubers must feel in 100x more, particularly if they have Patreon people to keep happy. We derived no income from our show, and in fact it cost us money to produce. In some ways I wish some of these monetizing platforms existed when we were around. It would have been fun to see if we could have gone anywhere with it. But then we might have succumb to these issues, as well. I guess it all comes back to "Be careful what you wish for..."

always_good 8y ago
> they have Patreon people to keep happy Reminds me of when I briefly accepted donations from users of my forum. Suddenly it was like my life was beholden to people that had once given me $5. At least when they'd given me $0, it was pretty straightforward to dismiss their complaints and they'd looked silly when they'd demanded more of my free time. But once they gave >$0, the water got murky. I ended up refunding everyone a few months later and I generally roll my eyes when I see posts like "um why not just take donations?" on HN. It's just not no-strings-attached money like people seem to think it is. It's more akin to selling a service for peanuts, it rears the same issues.
- progval 8y ago
  I have the same issue. A partial solution is to only accept anonymous donations (eg. on Liberapay). Even better if you have multiple projects and don't know which one is getting you the donations.
- AgentME 8y ago
  This makes me think of how moot (creator of 4chan) was against receiving donations from 4chan users, presumably because of this type of issue. He later started selling "4chan passes" which added certain specific features to the site. I think that was a very clever way to go about it: the people who bought them couldn't demand moot's attention. They got a very specific thing out of their money and everyone knew that. Considering these cases, I think it makes sense to make sure that whenever one accepts donations, they make it very explicit what the donator can rightfully expect. That could be as little as a token set of extra features, a badge on their user profile, or just warm fuzzy feelings without extra attention.
  - noobermin 8y ago
    Perhaps a different mentality for donations helps too. People who solicit donations should somehow communicate that you are not buying a service of some kind, they are donating to you, so you're free to take the money and do whatever. It's a strange thing however when people donate a pittance (five dollars or ten dollars or something) and then expect so much for it. When you pay five dollars for a coffee, you are at least paying for something. But the word "donation" never seemed to me like it carried any serious commitment on the part of the recipient. Perhaps the only thing the donor can expect is the recipient is to continue whatever they were doing. Beyond that it's ridiculous.
- noobermin 8y ago
  A podcast I know of has a "membership" concept which gives extra content. Once, an angry member sent an email deriding changes in the show that the rest of us enjoyed (specifically, antics by one of the co-hosts). The main host derided their email on air, saying that they'd gladly let go of the donor's membership[0]. I know you can't really do that if everyone is complaining about the same thing--in which the situation reaches a different regime, but for one off complaints, you'd be surprised how much people will recognize the bullshit and welcome your explanations how you can't please every one-off suggestion. [0] Of course, they kindly did not identify the angry member.
Ricardus 8y ago
If my friend wanted to start producing content again, I'd do it in a second. Getting together for a few hours a week to create a ~45 minute podcast was tons of fun, and the conversation was very therapeutic. I enjoyed the conversation. The back and forth. Many people have suggested I do something on my own, but I have no idea what that would be. And with stories like these, I'm less likely to dive in. I'm an audio engineer so I enjoy the production end of things, but I enjoy video editing less than straight up audio editing. But people are suggesting I do some sort of youtube channel. Ah, who knows! :-)

sigi45 8y ago

"most fun job"? There are many reasons why I don't work as a YouTuber. And I do not wanna be a "star"

craftyguy 8y ago
I'm sure there are tons of people who would say the same thing about whatever it is you do. Different strokes for different folks.
- sigi45 8y ago
  Exactly but i don't say: "Software engineering is the most fun job".

vanilla-almond 8y ago

The BBC made a brilliant spoof series on becoming a YouTube vlogger called 'Pls Like'. The whole thing is available on YouTube to watch (not geo-blocked as far I know). It's 6 episodes of 15 mins each. No matter which country you're from, you'll recognise all the vlogger types in the series: the lifestyle vlogger, the fashion vlogger, the prankster etc. It actually touches on a lot of the issues in the Guardian article: the need for views, the pressure to make content 'viral', sponsored content, rivalry between vloggers. It's all done with a lot of humour while highlighting these issues. I thoroughly recommend it (and in case you are wondering, the vloggers are all actors, not real vloggers): https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL64ScZt2I7wFF538Kn0TRqDyv2TbNuemk https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL64ScZt2I7wFF538Kn0TR...

chii 8y ago
pretty damn well made series!

anonymous5133 8y ago

If they feel burnout then they should just stop making videos for awhile or move on to doing something else.

wgerard 8y ago
> stop making videos for awhile It has a huge detrimental effect. Each day you take a break can set you back by several. From the article: >> “I left for less than 48 hours and lost 40,000 subscribers on Twitch. I’ll be back today… grinding again.” > move on to doing something else There's not a clear career path to anything else. Many of them have spent their formative adult years streaming, and transitioning to another career would be incredibly difficult and likely pay significantly less. Sure, there are the mega-streamers who have (hopefully) saved enough money that they could absorb that gigantic setback, or have enough celebrity that they can transition to something else, but I doubt the majority of them have earned enough to support a major life transition - like, say, going back to school full-time. This is also one of the problems former professional athletes face, and there are actually a lot of interesting parallels between the two groups. "Broke" is a really interesting watch if you haven't seen it already that is quite eye-opening: http://www.espn.com/30for30/film?page=broke http://www.espn.com/30for30/film?page=broke
- anonymous5133 8y ago
  Umm yeah, I still think they should move on. If you hate doing something then why continue doing it? Best to shift into an occupation you enjoy. I don't really think youtube or twitch were even meant to be full-time occupations to begin with.
  - wgerard 8y ago
    > If you hate doing something then why continue doing it? Best to shift into an occupation you enjoy This describes, likely, a large portion of the workforce in general and isn't specific to streamers. The answer, of course, is that it pays the bills and it's really hard to: 1) Figure out what it is that you'd actually enjoy 2) Figure out how to make money doing that

wybiral 8y ago

In my experience the frustrating part about YouTube is when the crowd wants content that you're not interested in making. For instance, I've made a few videos about building clusters from Raspberry Pi's, which I did just for kicks and to have something to play around with. They get more attention than my (imo more interesting) videos about programming or various other electronics topics, to the point that it dwarfs my other views. So I have to choose between disappointing the majority of my subscribers or making content that I don't actually enjoy or stand by just for the views. PS: I also learned very quickly that the YouTube comments section is chaotic and is not a recommended place for someone looking for thoughtful critique on their material.

pmoriarty 8y ago
"I also learned very quickly that the YouTube comments section is chaotic and is not a recommended place for someone looking for thoughtful critique on their material." YouTube's comments are some of the absolute worst I've seen on the web. It's interesting that YouTube has made no effective efforts to improve their quality. You'd think the site as a whole could benefit tremendously from quality comments, but apparently that is not a priority.
- fl0wenol 8y ago
  YouTube comments do not scale for moderation; its such a huge platform that it's likely not profitable to pay people to put a dent in it. Instead they expect the content creators to do it if they care to shape their own image.
- TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
  The article wonders if YouTube has a deliberate trollbait policy for its comments because it "improves engagement." So it's possible that civil comments are not just not a priority, but actively contraindicated.
  - tehwebguy 8y ago
    The answer is yes. Dislikes allegedly count 100% as much for the engagement algo as likes.

sidstling 8y ago

I respect people who have the ability to entertain thousands of viewers, I really do. At the same time I’m really happy that wasn’t even an option when I was young. I’m sure I would have spent even more time playing video games if esports, twitch and YouTube had been a thing in the 90ies. I know, I know, not everyone is alike, but at age 35 I’m really happy that my job involves serious adult challenges, and that my success in life isn’t depending on thousands of teenagers pushing a like button.

wybiral 8y ago
> my success in life isn’t depending on thousands of teenagers pushing a like button In a certain sense, though, most serious adult business still boils down to people seeing an ad, installing an app, buying a product, attracting investors, or teenagers clicking a like button. Edit: The YouTubers who go on to do it at a more serious capacity will also learn valuable first-hand lessons in dealing with partnerships, sponsors, public relations, release cycles, etc. All of which are useful depending on what it is that you want to do in your career.
- lsc 8y ago
  >In a certain sense, though, most serious adult business still boils down to people seeing an ad, installing an app, buying a product, attracting investors, or teenagers clicking a like button. I mean, yes, I'm part of the machine, and the machine does sell advertising. But I'm a little cog in a big machine, and there are a lot of other cogs between me and the teenagers and their like buttons. A long time ago, I wrote a technical book. One of the weirdest things to me was just how much reading the amazon reviews hurt. Like, they were mostly positive, but the negative ones, even negative reviews that as a buyer I would dismiss as 'clearly nutso' really hurt in a deeply irrational way. At my dayjob? not only is it someone else's job to worry about that sort of thing, the volume involved would make it almost impossible for me to consume the feedback in anything other than a statistically sampled sort of way, even if it was my job.
- noobermin 8y ago
  If you think this is problematic, say, providing for teenagers to click like buttons rather than confronting global warming or extreme wealth inequality, the question then is why do things have to be this way?

umvi 8y ago

I've noticed a few big YouTubers talking about burnout. Smooth McGroove most recently comes to mind.

miguelmota 8y ago

Because nothing is more important than spending countless hours on the internet seeking validation from strangers

jarjoura 8y ago

How is this different than any other prestigious high performance job? Okay great, you busted your ass and you made it to the top, and now you have to bust your ass to stay there. I also don’t really think it’s fair to attach YouTube to the title. This article can be applied to all social media celebrities in all their various platforms.

stephengillie 8y ago

> Like all YouTubers, Morton also feels the financial pressure of the system, which typically pays between £1.50 and £3 for every 1,000 views. Based on this, creators have to be close to the 1 million views per month mark to be making over $24,000 per year. It's no secret that YouTube is wildly unprofitable, from every angle. In a way, it's a transfer of wealth from AdWords, so our society is paying for YouTube through ads; just mostly not through the ads on YouTube.

dogma1138 8y ago
YouTube is unprofitable if you look at direct compensation alone, if you have even 1M views per year not to mention a month you can find partnerships and sponsorships. I don't understand why people think YouTube should pay more, the vast majority of YT content doesn't cost anything to create nor does it generate any revenue for YT. Besides the really large channels the best thing one can do is to run a channel is parallel to their business and in support of it which is what many of the smaller DYI/Maker/Professional/Vocational channels do you run a machine shop you make a few videos per month and you draw more business rather than rely on ad revenue.
- stephengillie 8y ago
  > the vast majority of YT content doesn't cost anything to create And does that painfully show. You basically have to build a small TV studio, or invest in computer graphics software and skills, to produce good content on a regular basis. And good writing also. None of these things are free. And this devalues the time of these independent video producers, They could be producing high value for another business, with appropriate compensation.

judNell 8y ago

Ninja, makes an estimated $500,000 (£384,000) every month via live broadcasts of him playing the video game Fortnite on Twitch, a service for livestreaming video games that is owned by Amazon. Most of Blevins’ revenue comes from Twitch subscribers or viewers who provide one-off donations (often in the hope that he will thank them by name “on air”). There is something fantastically wrong about the way internet economies operate. In the same way so many other sub-economies panhandle, in exchange for absolutely nothing.

williesleg 8y ago

Yeah, they need writers, agents, Russian protection, and a union. Then they'll be just like Hollywood.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

ravenstine 8y ago

> Divisive content is the king of online media today, and YouTube heavily boosts anything that riles people up [...] I look upon this idea skeptically. In my experience, the content delivered to me is as divisive as the videos I've already watched. If someone is getting divisive content, that's probably the content that they want to watch. Is it really up to YouTube to determine if a person has been watching content that's too divisive, like a bartender who cuts off a someone who's had too many drinks? When I log out of my YouTube account or open YouTube in incognito mode, all I see are viral videos and nothing that's "divisive". For example, the YouTube homepage without being logged in shows prank videos, Rube Goldberg type fascination videos, educational videos, Mexican music, daytime TV crap, SNL skits, and pop music. So basically, in order to get to the divisive stuff, you have to already be using search queries that will bring one to political commentators. But then what should be done? If someone is watching a lot of videos by the far left, should the recommended videos proportionally include more videos by right wing commentators? Is this really what people want? Sorry that this is tangental from the actual point of the article, but I've read of this idea multiple times before and it's always asserted as if it's a matter of fact, but I'm not sure I buy it.

richthegeek 8y ago
I find that once Youtube thinks you want divisive content, it serves it up to you pretty regularly. As an example, I have plenty of "X riles up SJWs" type videos and also their counterpart "X angers sexist Gamergaters" despite not watching these and trying to actively say "don't show me these things". Unfortunately, one bad click from Reddit and Youtube thinks I want this tripe. It's not solely related to "divisive" content though - the same is true of content related to Fortnite, Buzzfeed, and anything else that mostly consists of clickbait content. Youtube is just optimising for engagement, regardless of how that engagement affects the viewer.
lsc 8y ago
>I look upon this idea skeptically. In my experience, the content delivered to me is as divisive as the videos I've already watched. If someone is getting divisive content, that's probably the content that they want to watch. Just a counterpoint, I think it depends largely on the subject matter. my 'disengage the brain' videos are mostly tool teardowns and slow-motion videos of milling machines, or reviews of '90s luxury cars. If I let youtube pick the next video a few times in a row while I'm watching car videos, I end up in supercar land, (which is not very much fun for me, but not divisive or anything.) If I let youtube pick the next video a few times while watching tool teardowns, I sometimes end up with more interesting tool talk, but I often get survivalist stuff, and sometimes 'sovereign citizen' stuff starts to creep in.

epx 8y ago

I have an YouTube channel, mostly for personal stuff. I did some effort to record some videos about several subjects, none had more than a hundred viewers. Then, in a sudden, a very shaky and short video with a Mallet steam locomotive punctured the Algorithm Wall and had thousands of views per day... I was even making $20/mo off YouTube until the early 2018 changes took place. And the fact is, divisive content is king these days. Nobody, humans or algorithms, are interested in balanced opinions these days.

pandapower2 8y ago
>these days. Doubt they ever were.
api 8y ago
How many of the Nazis and other super divisive youtubers do you think are faking it or hamming it up for clicks? I do sometimes wonder "do these people actually believe this crap?" Same goes for totally outlandish conspiracy theories. Controversy has always sold, but never before has the feedback loop been so tight.
- fragsworth 8y ago
  Not believing what you speak is a huge enthusiasm killer, and enthusiasm is most of what makes a good video. I'd guess almost all of the people with growing channels believe what they speak, and anyone on the fence might even subconsciously start believe what their audience wants.
  - madeuptempacct 8y ago
    Except I can fake enthusiasm easily. I don't because it's deceptive. I feel like I am lying to someone when I fake enthusiasm. Doesn't go over all that well in most settings, since most people do fake it.
    - y2bd 8y ago
      I think OP means more personal enthusiasm, as in being driven to make videos at all. No benefit in being able to fake a smile if you never end up recording yourself in the first place. ...at the same time though, a ton of money and attention might be enough to get over making personally uninteresting content. I guess that's pretty much how careers are for most people.

menacingly 8y ago

This is an interesting story, definitely worth a click, but isn't it sort of also just the fundamental issues humans face in all pursuits that are based on interest? I feel like you'd get the same spirit of complaint from a disenchanted musician, actor, chef, or even entrepreneur. "It's a lot harder than I thought. The market's tastes are fickle, I've got to make stuff to please them instead of things that creatively satisfy me. If I stop relentlessly competing I can't pay my bills" I'm older than the average youtube star, but I don't begrudge their success or view them as trivial people like a lot of my peers. That said, perhaps it's the _initial_ grand slam success and money that is the aberration (like app store hits at their peak), and the "bad side" is simply a sort of market correction where you've got to do unenjoyable things roughly commensurate with the payoff.

pandapower2 8y ago
The story of these youtubers certainly has strong echoes of other show business type careers. >creators feel disposable ... in the knowledge that there are younger, fresher people waiting in the wings to replace them. That sounds a lot like actors in particular. Today's hot new star is tomorrow's has been.
pdimitar 8y ago
Over the last several years I gradually changed from being very salty and grumpy -- "FFS, these goofy kids get to squeal on air and get rich and buy a house I won't likely have at 50, WTF is that!!!" -- to basically accepting how most of our current world's economy works and I moved to the milder attitude of "hey, if you can make it work then more power to you, and good job!". I think the only bad thing in this picture is their initial huge success, like you seem to believe as well. This produces very unrealistic future expectations and the cognitive dissonance becomes nigh-impossible to face in the aftermath. This leads to articles such as this one. In my eyes everybody should learn to work hard and the value of money but some are skipping these steps with a big initial success and when reality finally kicks in, they are much less prepared to face it. Sad, but it's part of one's own personal development. Can't be avoided.
- projektir 8y ago

mancerayder 8y ago

The anxieties are tied up with the relentless nature of their work. Tyler Blevins, AKA Ninja, makes an estimated $500,000 (£384,000) every month via live broadcasts of him playing the video game Fortnite on Twitch, a service for livestreaming video games that is owned by Amazon. Most of Blevins’ revenue comes from Twitch subscribers or viewers who provide one-off donations (often in the hope that he will thank them by name “on air”). Blevins recently took to Twitter to complain that he didn’t feel he could stop streaming. “Wanna know the struggles of streaming over other jobs?” he wrote, perhaps ill-advisedly for someone with such a stratospheric income. “I left for less than 48 hours and lost 40,000 subscribers on Twitch. I’ll be back today… grinding again.” This fits into the stereotype of Millennials as entitled. He makes 500k a month, but can't get off the hamster wheel? Poor soul.

da02 8y ago
Is that after or before taxes?
- mancerayder 8y ago
  Before, no doubt. After, his existential travails only take more toll on his smug fatigue level.
- EpicEng 8y ago
  Does it matter?
- runevault 8y ago
  Before for certain.
- TrainedMonkey 8y ago
  Before taxes, he has about 100k subs who contribute around $5 each. Loosing 40k subs is pretty significant, however I am not sure how that is possible in just 2 days. While there is an option to auto renew most twitch subscribers are not automatic, a person is usually watching the stream and chooses to subscribe. When subscription expires they can do so again. Assuming 140k subs are evenly distributed throughout the month the loss from not streaming for 48 hours should be 2/30 * 140k, this comes down to slightly less than 10k. Moreover most of these subs should rejoin once he starts streaming again. You can see detailed breakdown here: https://twitchstats.net/subs/ninja https://twitchstats.net/subs/ninja

mancerayder 8y ago

pavanlimo 8y ago

As with everything else there is always a spectrum and this represents the dark end of the spectrum. I follow a bunch of tech youtubers (like MKBHD) who represent the happy side of the spectrum.

darkmighty 8y ago
The main problem is it's self-managed work. Given lack of advisory and guidance, or the structure of conventional workplaces and school, many people will mismanage their work-life balance. Even with structure I have problems sometimes managing my overall workload and side projects. It's certainly not Youtube at fault here, but it's definitely a valid issue every independent worker has to face. Discussion and exchanging solutions is a good thing.

amarand 8y ago

I'd watched a few videos talking about the old-time YouTube content generators in the "Wild West" of the site, compared with the current grind. They tweaked things so it only seems to make sense - monetization-wise - to be a content generator if you're able to keep up with posting high-quality content daily. Myself, I'd want to post great videos that people enjoy, and if the following grows, great! If not, I would just do what I want to do. If something else is more fun, I'll do that. But I'm not sure it's a good idea to try to make YouTube videos a work-from-home paying gig unless you really enjoy whatever content you're generating. And making regular, high-quality videos is a lot of work, not to mention regular, meaningful content that people with engage with. Otherwise, you're just screaming into the void.

elboru 8y ago
I don't like how youtubers feel obligated to produce a certain amount of videos per week. I would prefer one or two videos per month with good quality than three or four per week with clickbait titles.

village-idiot 8y ago

Sometimes the most bitter poison is everything you’d ever asked for. Humans really are terrible at estimating what will make them happy.

pdimitar 8y ago
Well it's all phases, is it not? Who says you will have a perfect idea at 16 about what will make you happy until you die? That's definitely not how humans work. All of us know people who did U-turns in their lives at 30+. Some even at 50 or 60.
- village-idiot 8y ago
  There’s that, but some of the research I’ve read says that humans are really bad at predicting how future events will affect their emotional state, regardless of age.

profosaur 8y ago

Stay strong, the Tech Lead, if you are out there.

oceanman888 8y ago
Are you talking about youtube channel thetechlead?

kragormonkey 8y ago

I wonder if this is specific to YouTube in any way. E.g., I'd stop visiting xkcd if Randall didn't keep uploading regularly. Most open source projects (including mine) turn into GitHub graveyard because we can't provide even the most basic maintenance and support. Lots of traditional-media pop stars have also famously burnt out. In general, it is hard work to cultivate a proper institution that spreads out the load and makes this sustainable. And the skill for managing that is never really taught anywhere. Most "lone artists" don't even realize it's needed until it's too late. And that's where most of this frustration stems from. Culturally we focus too much on that one "big break", or the "eureka moment".

mikekchar 8y ago

As stupid as this is going to sound, I think about this quite a bit in terms of writing a blog. I've wanted to do it for a long time and in the past people have been very kind and supportive of my writing. However, when I think about the reality of what it takes to make a successful blog, I get very nervous about it. I mean, it's dumb because the chances of writing a successful blog is next to nil. And the way to exit the scene is easy: stop writing content. But it's the path that worries me. You need to write a lot of relevant content -- almost certainly more content than you can reasonably think about critically. You will be judged on that content. If you make a mistake or change your mind, then you can be treated very harshly. It seems that the masses have this binary view of their celebrities: genius or moron. The more popular you get, the more people have you in their sights aiming to plonk you firmly in the latter category. For a long time, I've spent ridiculous amounts of time writing in safe havens like HN comment sections: because I truly love writing. I like thinking about stuff and breaking it down. I like explaining the insights that I find. And most of all, I like the fact that somebody reads what I write. I like thinking that I've connected with somebody else who I don't even know. I seem to remember a set of rules for writers by Stephen King (although my recollection doesn't seem to match what Google returns to me). In one of them he says to prepare yourself for an unbelievable amount of criticism. It's this that worries me the most. I don't mind criticism, per se, but I don't want to have to deal with a reputation based on ideas formed from my prose. "He's the dufus who believes that unit tests shouldn't test requirements. What a moron," is fine when I'm dealing with people who know me. It's down right terrifying when dealing with people who are potentially going to interview me for a job :-) A slight miscalculation in how you describe something, a popular misconception arising from rumours of your writing, or even just having a derpy day because you didn't think it through before you put pen to paper... And suddenly, you are the moron in the eyes of millions. Like I said, it's putting the cart before the horse by a long, long way, but it still stops me from writing, which is a massive shame. Somehow I must overcome it (advice is welcome, BTW!)

elvinyung 8y ago
I relate to this so much. I look up so much to people like Scott Alexander (Slate Star Codex) and Murat Demirbas (Metadata) and innumerable multitudes of other writers and scholars, I think that I'll never get anywhere nearly as successful with my writing. But then I realized I very very much don't care about socially-constructed standards of success, and I just stop giving a shit and write what I want, when I want.

biql 8y ago

I guess any activity that requires repetition becomes bleak sooner or later because brain craves variety. I guess it can be the inner voice telling that by getting obsessed over only one thing, you can miss out the chance to explore other aspects of life. But as it has been said, everything sucks, most of the time we're simply choosing what sucks less.

pdimitar 8y ago
> I guess any activity that requires repetition becomes bleak sooner or later because brain craves variety. You nailed it. And that's a huge problem for the current economical state of affairs; people start enthusiastically but eventually want to move on. By that time however, they have a family to care for, mortgage where they cannot miss a single installment, are generally tired, and cannot afford to make a decisive U-turn in their lives. It's extremely saddening, I watched many bright and smiley people turn into grumpy drones because of that tendency. One of the worst things you could see in life. :(

elvinyung 8y ago

The neoliberal condition is in part characterized by the entrepreneurialization of everything, the penetration of Michel Foucault's homo economicus (entrepreneur of the self) into more and more spheres of production, consumption, and everyday life. Increasingly, you're an "entrepreneur" no matter what, whether you're a food truck owner, a freelance designer, an Uber driver, an Airbnb host, a YouTube star. Entrepreneur means a blurring of boundaries, working from home, homing from work. In my possibly-naive opinion, it wouldn't be such a problem, if only we didn't tie value and self-worth so much on work, both culturally and politically. This entrepreneurialization goes hand-in-hand with the condition of precarity, feeling like you have to work your ass off, have to stay at the top of your game, to keep making a living, because you have no other way to live. It is incredibly dangerous, and it's increasingly defining us, the millennial and post-millennial generations.

AndrewKemendo 8y ago
As a clarification, Foucault did not define the term Homo Economicus [1]. He used the concept from Economics to describe the atomization of the individual inside the capitalist state structure, in contest with the "State" as a push-pull with that power structure. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_economicus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_economicus
- elvinyung 8y ago
  This is true, but I mostly know of the concept from Foucault's lectures in The Birth of Biopolitics (in particular the "atomization" aspect you mentioned), which I think is slightly different from those other definitions (which is also why I said "Foucault's").
  - AndrewKemendo 8y ago
    It's not so much different, as it's derivative and muddily so. Foucault had a tendency to re-define terms as he saw fit, irrespective of their historical use - as his philosophy would encourage - which is partly why the majority of his writing is so obtuse to other philosophers.

jsonne 8y ago

This article is really relatable. Personal story time. I recently had a mini hit on Reddit where I started a community that's about 2800 people who come to me for marketing tips every day. It's both exhilarating and terrifying. Having a community, making content about my passion, and being able to perform is really all I've ever wanted. On the other hand I'm insanely cognizant of losing it at any time. There is no break and I know even a slight lull can stop it before it ever really even gets close to its potential. God forbid I give bad advice, or someone 1 ups me in the comments and I'm no longer the expert. That combined with the fact that most marketing isn't all that interesting has me increasingly searching for more and more all the time ever cognizant I don't want to bore and lose my audience. I've been mitigating this by filming 3 videos a day and embracing an intentionally raw style, but it still requires daily upkeep in addition to my agency which demands 10 to 12 hours anyways. Don't get me wrong I love it and I'm insanely grateful, but there is a lot of stress that surrounds this sort of thing.

coldtea 8y ago
I think a lot of the concern for upkeep is simply overblown. I follow several vloggers, bloggers, etc. Once they've built a basic following, they can do whatever, even disappear for weeks or months, and still have most or all of their followers intact and craving for more content. I know, because me and tons of others, are waiting for new content from some such people who took huge break times off, and when it appears views always shoot through the roof. And I don't see Subscription counts fall of that much either (e.g. to the point that it makes any difference, e.g. going from 200K to 150K or so). It's easier to just ignore a channel that hasn't posted videos for a while, than to actively unsubscribe (besides, not getting posts is no reason to unsubscribe if you'd still like what they can possibly post in the future).
gammatrigono 8y ago
Are you being paid to run this community? nobody should be losing sleep over Reddit.

dogma1138 8y ago

Who knew hard work can be hard, this reads less like an actual deep analysis and more like people complaining they need to actually put in work to get paid. >‘invisible’ labour such as interacting with fans is ‘a major contributor to occupational stress. In many cases it can contribute to PTSD’. Are you kidding me? they are not fans they are your "customers" or at least your "consumers" public and customer relations are a key part of nearly every business out there that doesn't rely on accidental walk-ins for the majority of their business. If you can't handle it then hire someone who can or find another business, PTSD? from what? reading fan mail? even if it contains death threats you can't get PTSD from that there is no trauma, what you have here it just a lazy person that realized that omg running a business that serves tens of thousands of people daily is hard.

CamperBob2 8y ago
To be fair to the Youtube stars, this is exactly why famous authors and actors have publicity agents. The notion of celebrities interacting with the hoi polloi on a daily basis is a brand-new artifact of the Internet age. What's happening is that today's celebrities are learning why their predecessors locked themselves away in secluded Hollywood mansions and rode around wearing sunglasses in heavily-tinted limousines.
- dogma1138 8y ago
  So do "YouTube stars" most of the large channels are run by media companies either established one or ones that was set up to support the channel. All the people they interviewed are relatively no-body they are small fish if anything their "mistake" wasn't taking it as a business they thought they can record a few videos on their phone edit them in FCP and make a metric ton of money hence the "winning the lottery" analogy that went through the article. There aren't shortcuts in life people shouldn't expect to get paid for little to no effort put in, and yes if you are reaching 50,000 people by selling yourself you need to be willing to well whore yourself out because you are the product, if you are running a tech channel or something similar then you often run it closer to say how a TV channel would be run with different shows/segments, you can and do hire additional hosts/anchors and eventually build a whole media production group. But even the "vlog" channels aren't a solo gig all the large ones did a behind the scenes videos which they showed just how many people are involved in producing those videos, if you have a revenue of say $500,000 you can't expect to be able to do on your own, even on half of that you can easily hire multiple people and still make a more than enough money. Cameramen/crew, editors people to handle PR and out reach can be hired for $50K even with experience and in reality much less especially considering that given the production scope you can afford to hire people straight out of college or even high school.

durzagott 8y ago

I've unwittingly enjoyed Matt Lee's content on 'Shut Up and Sit Down', a board game review channel. I've always found him, and his colleagues, really good at what they do and find it professional. I didn't know about Matt's background on Youtube, but a bit of Googling and I found he's had a really rough ride. As well as the stress and health problems others have mentioned, his wife also developed cancer a few years ago and was very close to dying. All the while he still manages to produce witty, engaging content for a fickle audience. Honestly, the guy deserves a bit more respect for his craft than the comments in this thread are giving.

0xBA5ED 8y ago

Surprise. It's just a new face on an ancient profession: Entertainment. And it comes with similar challenges.