10 ms·

Infectious Theory of Alzheimer's Disease Draws Fresh Interest

222 points by chriskanan 8y ago

mabbo 8y ago
Alzheimer's is the cruelest of illnesses and the loved ones of the victims suffer as much as the victims. The allure of this theory, in my view, is that if you could somehow turn this into a treatment, people would give you whatever money you demanded for it. You want $200,000? We'll find it, somehow, just make Mom remember who I am, please.
- maxerickson 8y ago
  The amusing thing about your "cynicism" here is that $200,000 would be a substantial savings compared to what happens now, never mind the huge value an effective treatment would provide. In the US, the government (and thus society at large) bears much of the cost: http://act.alz.org/site/DocServer/2012_Costs_Fact_Sheet_version_2.pdf?docID=7161 http://act.alz.org/site/DocServer/2012_Costs_Fact_Sheet_vers...
  - hwillis 8y ago
    4-5 years of a nursing home vs cured alzheimer's isn't even a hard decision
    - Berobero 8y ago
      Looking at ~350k-400k for my dad if he lives another 5 years. Given his spending before Alzheimer's 200k would be an easy choice for us even even from a purely cold financial perspective.
  - sandworm101 8y ago
    And you have fallen into a different statistics trap. The number that matters isn't the cost of treating the patient. What matters is the increased lifetime costs of a paticular disease over the average. We all have to die of something. Diseases like lung cancer are cheap. The patients are either cured or dead relatively quickly. Demential is slow. Costs pile on for decades, starting often with forced early retirement long before formal medical costs are noticed. But we still have to normalize for the fact that, be it cancer, heart disease or dementia, most all of us will eventually need expensive care for some number of years.
    - Spooky23 8y ago
      Nursing homes are among the cruelest and most in humane institutions, worse than prison in many ways. Anything that avoids nursing home days is worth it’s weight in gold.
      - 14 8y ago
        I have worked in many as a care aid providin direct care to residents. I worked for 7 years in one facility that worked with advanced Alzheimer's and dementia like condition clients. I would not describe the nursing home as cruel or in-human, though to a person with sound mind it certainly would. The people who resided there simply could not live alone. They would soon be seriously hurt or die. So yes when they enter the facility they don't have all the same freedoms as you and I. It is not safe. They leave ovens on, let strangers have access to their money, go wondering in the night no regard to weather or other important factors and so on. Now on the family side of things they have been probably spending months trying to manage their loved one and at the same time are grieving the loss of that loved one as they watch the person they once knew fade away. Every hour for the family is spent wondering if mom or dad is safe at home and eventually their lives come to a halt and they start to experience care giver burn out. The facility provided a safe harbour for their loved ones. We ensured medications were taken on time. That they would get up in the morning and put on clean clothing and wash up as needed. We tried to entertain the residents with music, games and various activities. The facility I worked at made it so the families could finally breath and know their loved on me was safe at the end of the day. I hope others find the nursing homes they deal with to be the same experience.
        tsomctl 8y ago
        My grandpa spent the last several years of his life with Alzheimers in a nursing home. Furthermore, I spent several years as a telephone technician, and I worked plenty in nursing homes. My overall impression (at least of the ones in my county) is that they are poorly managed and the employees are overworked, and presumably are very underfunded. My grandpa received excellent care, but that was because my grandma went in almost every day to check in on him. There were several occasions when she raised hell because he wasn't being taken care of properly.
- mariuolo 8y ago
  > The allure of this theory, in my view, is that if you could somehow turn this into a treatment, people would give you whatever money you demanded for it. You want $200,000? We'll find it, somehow, just make Mom remember who I am, please. Experts please correct me if I'm wrong, but even if this theory were to be proven true, how could it help anyone once the damage is done?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - endymi0n 8y ago
    I won‘t speculate about the feasability in humans, but at least in a mouse model, it looks like it‘s possible to at least partially reverse some symptoms: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180214093712.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180214093712.h...
  - tim333 8y ago
    I'm wondering, after the recent finding that herpes anti virals can reduce the chance of getting alzhemiers by up to 10x whether its worth trying them on my dad who's got some kind of dementia. Not sure if it's got a chance of working. The drugs are fairly cheap widely available and low side effects - the same stuff you take for cold sores. I guess the idea would be if you could control viral stuff the bodies normal repair mechanisms could help.
    - 14 8y ago
      It sounds like you take some concern into your dads health and that you care. I would encourage you to be open and ask questions and find the information you need to help how you can. Maybe that is talking to your mom or if he is alone perhaps start a conversation with his doctor. If this is just something you have noticed but hasn't gone through the doctor I highly encourage you to do so. There are several causes to dementia. One being Alzheimer's as most know example but there are other types of dementia like vascular dementia where medications absolutely can help to some extent. Anyways don't be afraid to ask the questions. Wish you and your family best regards with all this.
- sandworm101 8y ago
  This research could make it only more cruel. Proof that it is caused by a germ, that is may be catching, would suggest that sufferers should be isolated from healthy people to prevent spread of the infection. Id be happy if it were caused by bacteria or a virus. Those we can deal with. But what if it is a prion like bse? Could it linger in houses? Are nursing homes now a biohazard? Dark days. The link between viruses and some cancers already points to some scary realities. Perhaps the kids shouldnt visit grandma in hospital. Imagine being a kid with cancer when your classmates learn that they might catch cancer from you? It could be like the early days of the AIDS panic again.
  - tim333 8y ago
    It's almost certainly not infectious in that kind of way or you'd notice the nurses in the old folks homes getting it.
    - foobarian 8y ago
      Worst case: they are getting it, but not finding out until they themselves reach old age.
      - jjeaff 8y ago
        I think even that would be noticed by now. If almost every person that worked in a nursing home 30 years ago are getting Alzheimer's.
        sandworm101 8y ago
        But why assume that people who work in nursing homes will be more exposed? Work is only part of the day. A great many more people live with elderly/dementia patients in their homes. We are all in contact with such people daily. If there were a germ that we could 'catch', I wouldn't assume that people in nursing homes were a special population. We may all have it.
    - sandworm101 8y ago
- cmurf 8y ago
  And that is but one reason why our system of health care is immoral. Not amoral. People who are sick, their families watching, are not able to make rational economic decisions. These things should be decided when we are rational, as a society, and my preference is the "veil of ignorance" approach provided by John Rawls. If you don't know what disease you get, what your native tongue is, whether you're rich or poor, whether you're Muslim or atheist, man or woman or agender or other, family person or nomad - what kind of society would you want to build, and how should and would that society treat everyone as fairly as possible. There is an exploitation in waiting, literally waiting, for people to get sick to have this conversation and decision making, as if health care is a product like any other, where some people will choose to buy even a chance, and others will admit defeat even with decent odds of success just because they can't afford it. But we also take it farther, where a bulk of the cost and the cost increases, are masked from the actual consumer by employer paid health care. Every single time I talk to people who do not buy their own "aging and sick care maintenance plan" I'm impressed by how incredibly ignorant they are of cost. Average cost for a sore throat doctor visit, $603. If you aren't shopping, or aren't able to shop, how is this in any way an informed free market? It's like we've gone both anti-socialism and anti-capitalism at the same time to come up with the world's worst possible way of doing health care. Imagine being behind the veil of ignorance and saying: only rich people should not have to worry about their health and sickness and aging, the middle class and poor properly should always wonder. And if really bad things happen through no fault of their own, they should properly be bankrupt. And none of this should be transparent or obvious or understandable by the average person. That is a good society that builds trust. Of course no one would say that, except maybe comedians and wicked people.
  - scarecrowbob 8y ago
    I haven't thought or Rawls in quite a while. The idea of a "veil of ignorance" as a mode of capturing the implications of some political position is a useful, wide-ranging, and easily digestible ethical concept; I'm going to add it back into my intellectual tool bag for when I am trying to discuss ethics with folks. Thanks for the reminder.
- narrator 8y ago
  If anyone has been looking at TauRX's phase 3 trials[1], methylene blue is ridiculously cheap, has been around for 100 years and stops Alzheimers progression better than any other drug. Tau is working on a slightly modified form that is basically putting it in a capsule and they'll sell it for $50 a pill probably, but that's the only way that anyone will believe it actually works. Methylene blue is a potent antimicrobial that easily penetrates the blood brain barrier, so it working so well would be consistent with Alzheimers being an infectious disease. [1]https://content.iospress.com/download/journal-of-alzheimers-disease/jad170560?id=journal-of-alzheimers-disease%2Fjad170560 https://content.iospress.com/download/journal-of-alzheimers-...
  - delbel 8y ago
    thanks for your post. That would be funny if the cure is to drink the "Methylene Blue Kool Aid"
  - tcj_phx 8y ago
    Methylene blue is also an monoamine oxidase inhibitor. I add it to my dog’s food to boost her metabolism. She blew her knee out a year ago (common injury for large 10yo dogs) but has mostly recovered without the surgery the vet said she’d probably need. (I use a variety of interventions with her.) Methylene blue should not be combined with the later anti-depressants that focus more on serotonin (SSRIs, etc.), as this can cause serotonin toxicity: https://www.apsf.org/article/methylene-blue-and-the-risk-of-serotonin-toxicity/ https://www.apsf.org/article/methylene-blue-and-the-risk-of-... > Tau is working on a slightly modified form that is basically putting it in a capsule and they'll sell it for $50 a pill probably, but that's the only way that anyone will believe it actually works. Patent medicines [1] are still as popular as they ever were. Science made some inroads in the early 20th century, before the hucksters regrouped, with new prescription-only FDA approved nostrums. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_medicine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_medicine
  - mrtnmcc 8y ago
    Other studies of mild to moderate Alzheimer's patients showed no improvement with Methylene blue, https://www.alzforum.org/news/conference-coverage/first-phase-3-trial-tau-drug-lmtm-did-not-work-period https://www.alzforum.org/news/conference-coverage/first-phas... Also I'd generally be more skeptical as the green urine it produces could be a strong placebo enhancer that is hard to control against.
- jlg23 8y ago
  This is not specific to Alzheimer but applies to the general concept of market-driven medical research.
eganist 8y ago
Prior discussions (not the same link) on HN, posted for reference because they touch on the past research that was previously posted here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17446016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17446016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17540512 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17540512 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17540094 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17540094 (this is the parent link for the antiviral risk reduction study -- a good read, comments and source article) There's a decent amount of reading when scholar-googling: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=hsv1+alzheimers https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=hsv1+alzheimers I can't find it now, but there's also a past HN discussion about a week prior to the HSV/HHV causative study that points to the function of beta-amyloid as potentially to tangle and disable Herpes in the brain, leading one to believe that β-Amyloid overproduction and its associated side-effects may potentially be a trade for substantially longer life and a slower passing versus a more immediate exit through e.g. encephalitis from an active infection. https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(18)30526-9 https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(18)30526-9 (study link) There's also research pointing to sleep's function as helping clear out plaques such as beta-amyloid. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16026655 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16026655 Finally, there's at least a bit of research pointing to boosted susceptibility of herpes viral infections when carrying ApoE4: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=hsv1+apoe4 https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=hsv1+apoe4 The novel conclusion from all of this, which I suspect is being actively investigated, is that there's a potentially complicated interplay of an enhanced viral infection (HSV/HHV enabled by ApoE4) + evolutionary defense going into overdrive (β-Amyloid) + sleep deprivation keeping the body from clearing out the residue -> disease. --- I'm particularly motivated to track this research because of its prevalence in my family background and because, from what I can tell, I've thus far managed to avoid the environmental trigger-pull. I can already tell you I'll probably go on (val)acyclovir lifetime if I'm ever diagnosed with any particular strain, as it looks like active infection, with outbreaks, is what's likely to act as the first domino to tip.
- graeme 8y ago
  How would you know if you had HSV? My impression was that a lot of infections are so mild that those with them don't realize they had it.
mrfusion 8y ago
So does this throw the type three diabetes theory out the window?
- hwillis 8y ago
  Nothing is out the window- Alzheimers is still extremely mysterious. There are fungal, infectious, prion, plaque, vascular, diabetes etc. etc. etc. Theories that are all remarkably reasonable. The only thing thats really changed recently is that the most recent frontrunning treatment, an amyloid-related drug, didnt help.
- jryan49 8y ago
  Maybe it's a combination of different theories. Maybe having a certain virus with "type three" diabetes, with certain genetics triggers it.
reasonattlm 8y ago
Microbial theories of Alzheimer's don't change the amyloid cascade hypothesis picture - that the disease begins with high levels of amyloid aggregates, then proceeds to high levels of tau aggregates enabled by the amyloid, and it is the tau that causes the real harm. That persistent infections raise amyloid production - because that amyloid is a feature of the innate immune system - is a way to try to answer the question of why only some people have raised levels of amyloid. If you can point to chronic infections that are present in 10% or 20% or 30% of the population (but not much more than that), such as some herpesviruses, this sounds plausible. The other problem is that there are people with high levels of of amyloid who don't get Alzheimer's, so you need other factors as well. That may be obesity / metabolic dysfunction, hence the view of Alzheimer's informed by metabolic syndrome, diabetes, insulin. The further challenge is that chronic inflammation in immune aging is clearly an important factor, as is vascular aging. A third of Alzheimer's patients also have some degree of vascular dementia, and the decline in blood flow and capillary networks are clearly significant in neurodegeneration considered as a whole. Another point to consider is that a competing hypothesis for the microbial increase in amyloid levels is the progressive age-related failure of cerebrospinal fluid drainage to remove buildup of aggregates as it does in youth. This has just as compelling a set of supporting evidence at the present time. Alzheimer's is a condition with many significant contributing causes. The amyloid cascade (with the various reasons as to why there might be more amyloid), immune aging, vascular aging. All the causes may be real, and about as important as one another. It is a condition that results from many discrete items, most of which may have to be addressed to produce significant gains in the patient population.
- caycep 8y ago
  this is likely true. I have always wondered why some folks w/ amyloidosis or cerebral amyloid angiopathy don't show AD pathology or symptoms.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
jesperlang 8y ago
So, NPR still doesn't link properly from the data protection choice page to the plain text site... Here is the plain text version: https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=645629133 https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=645629133
OnlyRepliesToBS 8y ago
check the autoclave
spraak 8y ago
Another theory is that Alzheimer's is a vascular disease [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6], i.e. atherosclerosis of the brain. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12480752 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12480752 [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24489130 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24489130 [3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23239205 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23239205 [4] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20695015 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20695015 [5] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15699381 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15699381 [6] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23204143 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23204143
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- subcosmos 8y ago
  This would make sense. HerpesVirus has been shown to cause atherosclerosis as well, in humans. The connection? Herpes binds to the APOE gene sitting on cholesterol-carrying LDL particles .... https://medium.com/@InfinoMe/cholesterol-have-we-shot-the-messenger-a3f5dfeba09 https://medium.com/@InfinoMe/cholesterol-have-we-shot-the-me... I spent 3 years in one of the nations top alzheimers centers. It is still shocking to me how some of the seasoned veteran professors in the field are both unfamiliar with the 20 years of viral literature behind Alzheimers, but that they also completely write it off as being unlikely. Curing alzheimers starts with curing the old dogma pervasive in the field. Incidentally, the time is now for young hackers to get into biomedicine. We need you.
  - msie 8y ago
    So maddening to hear that! The funding should be diverse enough not to go to all the veterans.
  - pvaldes 8y ago
    Sadly, the requisites to enter in biomedicine research are overhelming.
    - 8y ago
williesleg 8y ago
This, like Cancer, is a multi billion dollar industry. There is no cure because there is too much incentive to make money, and too much incentive to make regulation. Lots of government and private industry jobs depend on these not getting solved. Nothing can fix it, ever.
nikkwong 8y ago
Lots of information out there. I feel as though my mother who I love dearly might be starting to experience the first stages of alzheimers. She's healthy, but otherwise not doing anything to take care of the condition. Given the current stage of research/etc, what could I do to best protect her? Should I be pushing her towards certain docs or clinical studies? Any direction would be appreciated. We live in Seattle.
- flocial 8y ago
  Eat more curry is one. https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/909678/dementia-cure-curcumin-turmeric-stop-memory-loss-alzheimers-uk https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/909678/dementia-cure-curcu...
  - nikkwong 8y ago
    Thank you.
    - DoreenMichele 8y ago
      Curry is anti-inflammatory. There are studies on how the Mediterranean diet helps protect against brain inflammation. They are usually about depression, not Alzheimer's, and they typically claim that consumption of olive oil and fresh fruits and veggies are big factors. Those might provide clues for you to start your search. When my dad had Alzheimer's, I think they also gave him a children's aspirin (or possibly some other otc med) daily to help reduce his issues and help keep him more manageable. That might be another thing you could look up. I recall seeing a remark on HN about Bill Gates, Alzheimer's and walking, though I can't find a citation. I recall someone saying something like "It would be great to be able to tell my mom to walk more because Bill Gates said so." Walking is something I know to be hugely beneficial to various things. I would absolutely look for research that connects walking and protection against dementia if it were me. Best.
      - nikkwong 8y ago
        Thank you, appreciate that a lot! My mom already eats pretty healthy and exercises regularly, but I'll try to point her to specific foods. I am somewhat surprised with all the research about that there's no prescription drugs or similar items that may be beneficial.
vajrabum 8y ago
Cortexyme is starting a phase II trial for their drug COR388 soon which is a targeted anti-microbial for a specific organism which they have identified as Alzheimer's related and believe is the cause of Alzheimers. They should have some results in the next year or so. See here for more info. https://www.cortexyme.com/news https://www.cortexyme.com/news
odyssey7 8y ago
Crohn's is another inflammatory disease that has long been suspected by some researchers to be infectious. The company RedHill Biopharma just showed that a combination of generic antibiotics could be as effective as Humira, the highest gross-selling drug in the world, at treating the condition. https://www.redhillbio.com/RedHill/Templates/showpage.asp?DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=178&FID=1384&PID=0&IID=8179 https://www.redhillbio.com/RedHill/Templates/showpage.asp?DB... I keep seeing news about severe impacts of chronic infections that we aren't good at testing for, and aren't good at treating. Gut microbes that cause cancer, only just recently deciding that HPV's cancer risk to men was significant, and chronic Lyme disease are some examples. This article cites the historic example of peptic ulcers, which the medical community didn't believe were caused by an infection, until after Barry Marshall infected himself with H. pylori in 1984, developed disease, and treated himself for it with antibiotics. Marshall and his partner won a Nobel Prize for this work.

222 points by chriskanan 8y ago

Alzheimer's is the cruelest of illnesses and the loved ones of the victims suffer as much as the victims. The allure of this theory, in my view, is that if you could somehow turn this into a treatment, people would give you whatever money you demanded for it. You want $200,000? We'll find it, somehow, just make Mom remember who I am, please.

maxerickson 8y ago
The amusing thing about your "cynicism" here is that $200,000 would be a substantial savings compared to what happens now, never mind the huge value an effective treatment would provide. In the US, the government (and thus society at large) bears much of the cost: http://act.alz.org/site/DocServer/2012_Costs_Fact_Sheet_version_2.pdf?docID=7161 http://act.alz.org/site/DocServer/2012_Costs_Fact_Sheet_vers...
- hwillis 8y ago
  4-5 years of a nursing home vs cured alzheimer's isn't even a hard decision
  - Berobero 8y ago
    Looking at ~350k-400k for my dad if he lives another 5 years. Given his spending before Alzheimer's 200k would be an easy choice for us even even from a purely cold financial perspective.
- sandworm101 8y ago
  And you have fallen into a different statistics trap. The number that matters isn't the cost of treating the patient. What matters is the increased lifetime costs of a paticular disease over the average. We all have to die of something. Diseases like lung cancer are cheap. The patients are either cured or dead relatively quickly. Demential is slow. Costs pile on for decades, starting often with forced early retirement long before formal medical costs are noticed. But we still have to normalize for the fact that, be it cancer, heart disease or dementia, most all of us will eventually need expensive care for some number of years.
  - Spooky23 8y ago
    Nursing homes are among the cruelest and most in humane institutions, worse than prison in many ways. Anything that avoids nursing home days is worth it’s weight in gold.
    - 14 8y ago
      I have worked in many as a care aid providin direct care to residents. I worked for 7 years in one facility that worked with advanced Alzheimer's and dementia like condition clients. I would not describe the nursing home as cruel or in-human, though to a person with sound mind it certainly would. The people who resided there simply could not live alone. They would soon be seriously hurt or die. So yes when they enter the facility they don't have all the same freedoms as you and I. It is not safe. They leave ovens on, let strangers have access to their money, go wondering in the night no regard to weather or other important factors and so on. Now on the family side of things they have been probably spending months trying to manage their loved one and at the same time are grieving the loss of that loved one as they watch the person they once knew fade away. Every hour for the family is spent wondering if mom or dad is safe at home and eventually their lives come to a halt and they start to experience care giver burn out. The facility provided a safe harbour for their loved ones. We ensured medications were taken on time. That they would get up in the morning and put on clean clothing and wash up as needed. We tried to entertain the residents with music, games and various activities. The facility I worked at made it so the families could finally breath and know their loved on me was safe at the end of the day. I hope others find the nursing homes they deal with to be the same experience.
      - tsomctl 8y ago
        My grandpa spent the last several years of his life with Alzheimers in a nursing home. Furthermore, I spent several years as a telephone technician, and I worked plenty in nursing homes. My overall impression (at least of the ones in my county) is that they are poorly managed and the employees are overworked, and presumably are very underfunded. My grandpa received excellent care, but that was because my grandma went in almost every day to check in on him. There were several occasions when she raised hell because he wasn't being taken care of properly.
mariuolo 8y ago
> The allure of this theory, in my view, is that if you could somehow turn this into a treatment, people would give you whatever money you demanded for it. You want $200,000? We'll find it, somehow, just make Mom remember who I am, please. Experts please correct me if I'm wrong, but even if this theory were to be proven true, how could it help anyone once the damage is done?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- endymi0n 8y ago
  I won‘t speculate about the feasability in humans, but at least in a mouse model, it looks like it‘s possible to at least partially reverse some symptoms: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180214093712.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180214093712.h...
- tim333 8y ago
  I'm wondering, after the recent finding that herpes anti virals can reduce the chance of getting alzhemiers by up to 10x whether its worth trying them on my dad who's got some kind of dementia. Not sure if it's got a chance of working. The drugs are fairly cheap widely available and low side effects - the same stuff you take for cold sores. I guess the idea would be if you could control viral stuff the bodies normal repair mechanisms could help.
  - 14 8y ago
    It sounds like you take some concern into your dads health and that you care. I would encourage you to be open and ask questions and find the information you need to help how you can. Maybe that is talking to your mom or if he is alone perhaps start a conversation with his doctor. If this is just something you have noticed but hasn't gone through the doctor I highly encourage you to do so. There are several causes to dementia. One being Alzheimer's as most know example but there are other types of dementia like vascular dementia where medications absolutely can help to some extent. Anyways don't be afraid to ask the questions. Wish you and your family best regards with all this.
sandworm101 8y ago
This research could make it only more cruel. Proof that it is caused by a germ, that is may be catching, would suggest that sufferers should be isolated from healthy people to prevent spread of the infection. Id be happy if it were caused by bacteria or a virus. Those we can deal with. But what if it is a prion like bse? Could it linger in houses? Are nursing homes now a biohazard? Dark days. The link between viruses and some cancers already points to some scary realities. Perhaps the kids shouldnt visit grandma in hospital. Imagine being a kid with cancer when your classmates learn that they might catch cancer from you? It could be like the early days of the AIDS panic again.
- tim333 8y ago
  It's almost certainly not infectious in that kind of way or you'd notice the nurses in the old folks homes getting it.
  - foobarian 8y ago
    Worst case: they are getting it, but not finding out until they themselves reach old age.
    - jjeaff 8y ago
      I think even that would be noticed by now. If almost every person that worked in a nursing home 30 years ago are getting Alzheimer's.
      - sandworm101 8y ago
        But why assume that people who work in nursing homes will be more exposed? Work is only part of the day. A great many more people live with elderly/dementia patients in their homes. We are all in contact with such people daily. If there were a germ that we could 'catch', I wouldn't assume that people in nursing homes were a special population. We may all have it.
  - sandworm101 8y ago
cmurf 8y ago
And that is but one reason why our system of health care is immoral. Not amoral. People who are sick, their families watching, are not able to make rational economic decisions. These things should be decided when we are rational, as a society, and my preference is the "veil of ignorance" approach provided by John Rawls. If you don't know what disease you get, what your native tongue is, whether you're rich or poor, whether you're Muslim or atheist, man or woman or agender or other, family person or nomad - what kind of society would you want to build, and how should and would that society treat everyone as fairly as possible. There is an exploitation in waiting, literally waiting, for people to get sick to have this conversation and decision making, as if health care is a product like any other, where some people will choose to buy even a chance, and others will admit defeat even with decent odds of success just because they can't afford it. But we also take it farther, where a bulk of the cost and the cost increases, are masked from the actual consumer by employer paid health care. Every single time I talk to people who do not buy their own "aging and sick care maintenance plan" I'm impressed by how incredibly ignorant they are of cost. Average cost for a sore throat doctor visit, $603. If you aren't shopping, or aren't able to shop, how is this in any way an informed free market? It's like we've gone both anti-socialism and anti-capitalism at the same time to come up with the world's worst possible way of doing health care. Imagine being behind the veil of ignorance and saying: only rich people should not have to worry about their health and sickness and aging, the middle class and poor properly should always wonder. And if really bad things happen through no fault of their own, they should properly be bankrupt. And none of this should be transparent or obvious or understandable by the average person. That is a good society that builds trust. Of course no one would say that, except maybe comedians and wicked people.
- scarecrowbob 8y ago
  I haven't thought or Rawls in quite a while. The idea of a "veil of ignorance" as a mode of capturing the implications of some political position is a useful, wide-ranging, and easily digestible ethical concept; I'm going to add it back into my intellectual tool bag for when I am trying to discuss ethics with folks. Thanks for the reminder.
narrator 8y ago
If anyone has been looking at TauRX's phase 3 trials[1], methylene blue is ridiculously cheap, has been around for 100 years and stops Alzheimers progression better than any other drug. Tau is working on a slightly modified form that is basically putting it in a capsule and they'll sell it for $50 a pill probably, but that's the only way that anyone will believe it actually works. Methylene blue is a potent antimicrobial that easily penetrates the blood brain barrier, so it working so well would be consistent with Alzheimers being an infectious disease. [1]https://content.iospress.com/download/journal-of-alzheimers-disease/jad170560?id=journal-of-alzheimers-disease%2Fjad170560 https://content.iospress.com/download/journal-of-alzheimers-...
- delbel 8y ago
  thanks for your post. That would be funny if the cure is to drink the "Methylene Blue Kool Aid"
- tcj_phx 8y ago
  Methylene blue is also an monoamine oxidase inhibitor. I add it to my dog’s food to boost her metabolism. She blew her knee out a year ago (common injury for large 10yo dogs) but has mostly recovered without the surgery the vet said she’d probably need. (I use a variety of interventions with her.) Methylene blue should not be combined with the later anti-depressants that focus more on serotonin (SSRIs, etc.), as this can cause serotonin toxicity: https://www.apsf.org/article/methylene-blue-and-the-risk-of-serotonin-toxicity/ https://www.apsf.org/article/methylene-blue-and-the-risk-of-... > Tau is working on a slightly modified form that is basically putting it in a capsule and they'll sell it for $50 a pill probably, but that's the only way that anyone will believe it actually works. Patent medicines [1] are still as popular as they ever were. Science made some inroads in the early 20th century, before the hucksters regrouped, with new prescription-only FDA approved nostrums. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_medicine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_medicine
- mrtnmcc 8y ago
  Other studies of mild to moderate Alzheimer's patients showed no improvement with Methylene blue, https://www.alzforum.org/news/conference-coverage/first-phase-3-trial-tau-drug-lmtm-did-not-work-period https://www.alzforum.org/news/conference-coverage/first-phas... Also I'd generally be more skeptical as the green urine it produces could be a strong placebo enhancer that is hard to control against.
jlg23 8y ago
This is not specific to Alzheimer but applies to the general concept of market-driven medical research.

eganist 8y ago

Prior discussions (not the same link) on HN, posted for reference because they touch on the past research that was previously posted here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17446016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17446016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17540512 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17540512 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17540094 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17540094 (this is the parent link for the antiviral risk reduction study -- a good read, comments and source article) There's a decent amount of reading when scholar-googling: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=hsv1+alzheimers https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=hsv1+alzheimers I can't find it now, but there's also a past HN discussion about a week prior to the HSV/HHV causative study that points to the function of beta-amyloid as potentially to tangle and disable Herpes in the brain, leading one to believe that β-Amyloid overproduction and its associated side-effects may potentially be a trade for substantially longer life and a slower passing versus a more immediate exit through e.g. encephalitis from an active infection. https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(18)30526-9 https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(18)30526-9 (study link) There's also research pointing to sleep's function as helping clear out plaques such as beta-amyloid. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16026655 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16026655 Finally, there's at least a bit of research pointing to boosted susceptibility of herpes viral infections when carrying ApoE4: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=hsv1+apoe4 https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=hsv1+apoe4 The novel conclusion from all of this, which I suspect is being actively investigated, is that there's a potentially complicated interplay of an enhanced viral infection (HSV/HHV enabled by ApoE4) + evolutionary defense going into overdrive (β-Amyloid) + sleep deprivation keeping the body from clearing out the residue -> disease. --- I'm particularly motivated to track this research because of its prevalence in my family background and because, from what I can tell, I've thus far managed to avoid the environmental trigger-pull. I can already tell you I'll probably go on (val)acyclovir lifetime if I'm ever diagnosed with any particular strain, as it looks like active infection, with outbreaks, is what's likely to act as the first domino to tip.

graeme 8y ago
How would you know if you had HSV? My impression was that a lot of infections are so mild that those with them don't realize they had it.

mrfusion 8y ago

So does this throw the type three diabetes theory out the window?

hwillis 8y ago
Nothing is out the window- Alzheimers is still extremely mysterious. There are fungal, infectious, prion, plaque, vascular, diabetes etc. etc. etc. Theories that are all remarkably reasonable. The only thing thats really changed recently is that the most recent frontrunning treatment, an amyloid-related drug, didnt help.
jryan49 8y ago
Maybe it's a combination of different theories. Maybe having a certain virus with "type three" diabetes, with certain genetics triggers it.

reasonattlm 8y ago

Microbial theories of Alzheimer's don't change the amyloid cascade hypothesis picture - that the disease begins with high levels of amyloid aggregates, then proceeds to high levels of tau aggregates enabled by the amyloid, and it is the tau that causes the real harm. That persistent infections raise amyloid production - because that amyloid is a feature of the innate immune system - is a way to try to answer the question of why only some people have raised levels of amyloid. If you can point to chronic infections that are present in 10% or 20% or 30% of the population (but not much more than that), such as some herpesviruses, this sounds plausible. The other problem is that there are people with high levels of of amyloid who don't get Alzheimer's, so you need other factors as well. That may be obesity / metabolic dysfunction, hence the view of Alzheimer's informed by metabolic syndrome, diabetes, insulin. The further challenge is that chronic inflammation in immune aging is clearly an important factor, as is vascular aging. A third of Alzheimer's patients also have some degree of vascular dementia, and the decline in blood flow and capillary networks are clearly significant in neurodegeneration considered as a whole. Another point to consider is that a competing hypothesis for the microbial increase in amyloid levels is the progressive age-related failure of cerebrospinal fluid drainage to remove buildup of aggregates as it does in youth. This has just as compelling a set of supporting evidence at the present time. Alzheimer's is a condition with many significant contributing causes. The amyloid cascade (with the various reasons as to why there might be more amyloid), immune aging, vascular aging. All the causes may be real, and about as important as one another. It is a condition that results from many discrete items, most of which may have to be addressed to produce significant gains in the patient population.

caycep 8y ago
this is likely true. I have always wondered why some folks w/ amyloidosis or cerebral amyloid angiopathy don't show AD pathology or symptoms.

deleted 8y ago

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jesperlang 8y ago

So, NPR still doesn't link properly from the data protection choice page to the plain text site... Here is the plain text version: https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=645629133 https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=645629133

OnlyRepliesToBS 8y ago

check the autoclave

spraak 8y ago

Another theory is that Alzheimer's is a vascular disease [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6], i.e. atherosclerosis of the brain. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12480752 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12480752 [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24489130 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24489130 [3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23239205 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23239205 [4] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20695015 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20695015 [5] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15699381 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15699381 [6] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23204143 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23204143

deleted 8y ago
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subcosmos 8y ago
This would make sense. HerpesVirus has been shown to cause atherosclerosis as well, in humans. The connection? Herpes binds to the APOE gene sitting on cholesterol-carrying LDL particles .... https://medium.com/@InfinoMe/cholesterol-have-we-shot-the-messenger-a3f5dfeba09 https://medium.com/@InfinoMe/cholesterol-have-we-shot-the-me... I spent 3 years in one of the nations top alzheimers centers. It is still shocking to me how some of the seasoned veteran professors in the field are both unfamiliar with the 20 years of viral literature behind Alzheimers, but that they also completely write it off as being unlikely. Curing alzheimers starts with curing the old dogma pervasive in the field. Incidentally, the time is now for young hackers to get into biomedicine. We need you.
- msie 8y ago
  So maddening to hear that! The funding should be diverse enough not to go to all the veterans.
- pvaldes 8y ago
  Sadly, the requisites to enter in biomedicine research are overhelming.
  - 8y ago

williesleg 8y ago

This, like Cancer, is a multi billion dollar industry. There is no cure because there is too much incentive to make money, and too much incentive to make regulation. Lots of government and private industry jobs depend on these not getting solved. Nothing can fix it, ever.

nikkwong 8y ago

Lots of information out there. I feel as though my mother who I love dearly might be starting to experience the first stages of alzheimers. She's healthy, but otherwise not doing anything to take care of the condition. Given the current stage of research/etc, what could I do to best protect her? Should I be pushing her towards certain docs or clinical studies? Any direction would be appreciated. We live in Seattle.

flocial 8y ago
Eat more curry is one. https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/909678/dementia-cure-curcumin-turmeric-stop-memory-loss-alzheimers-uk https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/909678/dementia-cure-curcu...
- nikkwong 8y ago
  Thank you.
  - DoreenMichele 8y ago
    Curry is anti-inflammatory. There are studies on how the Mediterranean diet helps protect against brain inflammation. They are usually about depression, not Alzheimer's, and they typically claim that consumption of olive oil and fresh fruits and veggies are big factors. Those might provide clues for you to start your search. When my dad had Alzheimer's, I think they also gave him a children's aspirin (or possibly some other otc med) daily to help reduce his issues and help keep him more manageable. That might be another thing you could look up. I recall seeing a remark on HN about Bill Gates, Alzheimer's and walking, though I can't find a citation. I recall someone saying something like "It would be great to be able to tell my mom to walk more because Bill Gates said so." Walking is something I know to be hugely beneficial to various things. I would absolutely look for research that connects walking and protection against dementia if it were me. Best.
    - nikkwong 8y ago
      Thank you, appreciate that a lot! My mom already eats pretty healthy and exercises regularly, but I'll try to point her to specific foods. I am somewhat surprised with all the research about that there's no prescription drugs or similar items that may be beneficial.

vajrabum 8y ago

Cortexyme is starting a phase II trial for their drug COR388 soon which is a targeted anti-microbial for a specific organism which they have identified as Alzheimer's related and believe is the cause of Alzheimers. They should have some results in the next year or so. See here for more info. https://www.cortexyme.com/news https://www.cortexyme.com/news

odyssey7 8y ago

Crohn's is another inflammatory disease that has long been suspected by some researchers to be infectious. The company RedHill Biopharma just showed that a combination of generic antibiotics could be as effective as Humira, the highest gross-selling drug in the world, at treating the condition. https://www.redhillbio.com/RedHill/Templates/showpage.asp?DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=178&FID=1384&PID=0&IID=8179 https://www.redhillbio.com/RedHill/Templates/showpage.asp?DB... I keep seeing news about severe impacts of chronic infections that we aren't good at testing for, and aren't good at treating. Gut microbes that cause cancer, only just recently deciding that HPV's cancer risk to men was significant, and chronic Lyme disease are some examples. This article cites the historic example of peptic ulcers, which the medical community didn't believe were caused by an infection, until after Barry Marshall infected himself with H. pylori in 1984, developed disease, and treated himself for it with antibiotics. Marshall and his partner won a Nobel Prize for this work.