5 ms·

Which countries?

by sarabande 8y ago

Which countries?

pivo 8y ago
The Netherlands for one.
- the-dude 8y ago
  Nee hoor : https://www.mkbservicedesk.nl/1075/is-daglicht-werkplek-verplicht.htm https://www.mkbservicedesk.nl/1075/is-daglicht-werkplek-verp...
ciaron 8y ago
Germany too.
narag 8y ago
In Spain there is some regulation, but I don't know the details. I remember an inspector paid us a visit and made some recommendations.
mrweasel 8y ago
It has been illegal to stuff people into room with no natural light in Denmark for at least 40 years. It can just be a skylight if you're in warehouse or factory. I believe that office workers are required to have actual windows and honestly I don't think even the employers think it's right to have windowless offices
- Kalroth 8y ago
  Yup, the Danish Working Environment Authority is pretty clear about it. There has to be a source of natural daylight and there must be clear windows that you can see through. Of course there are always exceptions, but they are just that. https://arbejdstilsynet.dk/da/regler/indeklima/belysning-og-dagslys https://arbejdstilsynet.dk/da/regler/indeklima/belysning-og-...
- Aaargh20318 8y ago
  > I don't think even the employers think it's right to have windowless offices As an employee, I hate this rule and would love a windowless office. Right now, I just keep the curtains closed all day.
  - socksy 8y ago
    Well, you can close a curtain, you can't usually get a sledgehammer and knock a hole in the wall if your office doesn't have a window and you want one.
  - mrweasel 8y ago
    Could you explain why? Do you just prefer a dark room or are you distracted by activities outside your window? I can't really imagine not being look out a windows during the day. Also I think I'd feel trapped without windows, not that I can just jump out my 3rd. floor window.
    - tialaramex 8y ago
      Not your parent poster, but for me the external variable light is mostly a nuisance. It can be too bright and cause glare, or it's not enough and I need artificial lighting anyway. So I just blot it out, I work from home and I do the same across my entire home, blinds block external light and I use artificial light all day. Sunlight is nice if I'm going to be outside admiring nature, but it's crap for reading, playing video games, any number of activities I want to do at home. The cheap place I'll be staying on vacation in a couple of weeks offered a "free upgrade" to a room with a window and I was like "I don't understand - what would I in theory see out of this window?" because it's in a city centre, and obviously as a tourist I shall go out and look at museums and galleries and stuff, I shan't be sat there all day looking out the window, so it seems pointless. The other person I'm going with likes windows, so they'd already paid a little bit extra to have a window anyway. Crazy.
      - mrweasel 8y ago
        Thanks, that makes sense. It's not for me personally, I really like being able to look out and see the light change during the day. There's nothing worse that going outside after work and not having realized that it's gotten dark without me noticing. On a side note I don't think I'd stay in a hotel/motel room without windows, that just seems creepy. For the same reason I don't book room on ferries without windows, even though I'd just see the water.
pi-err 8y ago
IIRC Germany sort of requires all offices to have direct natural light https://www.thelocal.de/galleries/lifestyle/top-ten-weird-german-laws-the-local-list/4 https://www.thelocal.de/galleries/lifestyle/top-ten-weird-ge...
- cyxxon 8y ago
  While probably true (not checking the real law right now), that list is weirdly misleading. For example it's not forbidden to drill on a sunday or tune your piano at night, you are simply not allowed to disturb other people too much at certain quiet times (e.g. Sunday or the night, so not totally unreasonable either). If you live remotely and nobody hears you, just go ahead. Side note: why would anyone consider it weird to actually have laws in place to protect workers from abusive employers? That's how it seems to be worded on that page...
- pluma 8y ago
  That list is terrible: 3: pillows may be considered passive weapons but that is irrelevant unless it is used as such or carried in a context where it is likely intended to be used as such (e.g. while participating in a demonstration). That said, assaulting random people in public with a pillow is probably still illegal because it involves assaulting random people (albeit with a weapon that's less likely to cause permanent injuries directly). 5: Both drilling and throwing bottles into containers cause noise pollution. It's not the act itself that's verboten, it's the noise it causes. 6: This is the same thing as 5. The law doesn't give an exhaustive list of activities that might be too damn noisy so I have no idea where these come from. 8: Calling a police officer "du" is a sign of disrespect. If you're new to the language and struggling with the distinction, the police officer will likely correct you or ignore it. Treating police officers disrespectfully is a misdemeanor and addressing them as "du" is one way to be disrespectful. 9: This is a widely held misconception. The "Deutschlandlied" is not illegal. The national anthem only has one verse and that's the third verse of the Deutschlandlied (or actually "Lied der Deutschen"). You can still sing the entire song but if you were going for singing the national anthem, you'll spend two verses singing something that isn't the national anthem. The reason people will still look at you in disgust is the same reason the anthem only uses the third verse: we don't take to jingoism too kindly after WW2. 10: I'm pretty sure it's not a law that you can't drink Export or non-Munich beer at the Oktoberfest, considering the Oktoberfest is in essence just a private event, but it's Bavaria so I'm not sure of this one.
Tor3 8y ago
>Which countries? A lot of European countries, as far as I know. Not sure if it's all of them. But others have replied, so we know about Denmark (and it's the same in the other Scandinavian countries, probably all the Nordic countries, i.e. Scandinavia + Finland and Iceland), Germany, possibly Spain (not sure), Netherlands, ..
- rurban 8y ago
  For sure Austria also.
zyberzero 8y ago
Sweden as well.
mooss 8y ago
I did an internship last year which consisted in writing unit tests for a raytracing library that was among other things - I was told - used to determine if buildings were on paper getting enough sunlight according to european standards. I'm not sure whether they were talking about EU regulations or about the regulations of specific european countries. Edit: typos
- dithering 8y ago
  From my basement in London: Probably specific countries.
  - quietbritishjim 8y ago
    Is it an old building? There are some basement offices in London, and presumably other countries, with either no windows or pointlessly small/ineffective ones (like those little glass blocks you see on the pavement occasionally). I wonder if light regulations would have to have exclusions for old buildings that are impractical to change (a bit like minimum platform widths at train stations don't apply to some old stations).
  - rsynnott 8y ago
    I think there are at least two separate issues here; some countries have health and safety laws requiring natural light, while others require natural light in newly-built offices (as a condition of planning etc). Can you build an office in London these days that doesn't have natural light in the main spaces? I'd be sceptical.
    - dithering 8y ago
      Old building. Managed offices, completely gutted internally last year. I don't know if that wound count as new build. Probably not.
      - rsynnott 8y ago
        No, definitely not. You get away with all sorts of things with a sufficiently old building.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
duchenne 8y ago
In France, natural lighting is also mandatory. source in French: https://www.senat.fr/questions/base/2012/qSEQ121002524.html https://www.senat.fr/questions/base/2012/qSEQ121002524.html
- flr03 8y ago
  If I remember correctly, in France, if you work like in a mall or a basement you are allowed extra days off ("Jours soleil").
Someone 8y ago
Certainly the EU. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A31989L0654 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A...: ”8. Natural and artificial room lighting 8.1. Workplaces must as far as possible receive sufficient natural light and be equipped with artificial lighting adequate for the protection of workers' safety and health. […] 10. Windows and skylights 10.1. It must be possible for workers to open, close, adjust or secure windows, skylights and ventilators in a safe manner. When open, they must not be positioned so as to constitute a hazard to workers.” Effective since December 31, 1992 (two years later for Greece)
- ensignavenger 8y ago
  "as far as possible"... I wonder how that is interpreted? Does that exclude buildings older than the code? Does it prevent new buildings from being constructed without these features? It would always be "possible" if enough money was spent on it (and you ignore other considerations, like historical values)...
  - InternetOfStuff 8y ago
    > I wonder how that is interpreted? * If the nature of what goes on inside a room conflicts with the presence of windows -- e.g. labs (say, a laser lab) * if the room isn't meant to be used by humans (e.g. storage closets, server rooms) -- If humans sometimes enter such rooms that's OK, but it can't be their "assigned workplace".
  - Someone 8y ago
    It’s the EU, so you can count on it being reasonable. The example I know of where it isn’t enforced is of people working inside a refrigerator. I can imagine security conscious jobs and radiology departments also may be exceptions. It also doesn’t mean all rooms need windows or even natural light. Toilet rooms often don’t, for example, and storage rooms often only have windows high in the walls or in the ceiling (typically way more than in “a room with a view” in Cupertino :-) )
  - pjc50 8y ago
vlehto 8y ago
In Finland the building code requires that all office spaces and apartments have a window. It's possible to circumvent this by putting an office into space that was designed as storage or as factory. But you will then usually also lack toilets, kitchen and decent air condition. If you do the renovation to get those things and abide by the law, you will have to arrange a window too. In practice some individuals in overstaffed offices will work from a space that was originally storage, then negotiation room and now a shitty office room.

Which countries?

pivo 8y ago

The Netherlands for one.

the-dude 8y ago
Nee hoor : https://www.mkbservicedesk.nl/1075/is-daglicht-werkplek-verplicht.htm https://www.mkbservicedesk.nl/1075/is-daglicht-werkplek-verp...

ciaron 8y ago

Germany too.

narag 8y ago

In Spain there is some regulation, but I don't know the details. I remember an inspector paid us a visit and made some recommendations.

mrweasel 8y ago

It has been illegal to stuff people into room with no natural light in Denmark for at least 40 years. It can just be a skylight if you're in warehouse or factory. I believe that office workers are required to have actual windows and honestly I don't think even the employers think it's right to have windowless offices

Kalroth 8y ago
Yup, the Danish Working Environment Authority is pretty clear about it. There has to be a source of natural daylight and there must be clear windows that you can see through. Of course there are always exceptions, but they are just that. https://arbejdstilsynet.dk/da/regler/indeklima/belysning-og-dagslys https://arbejdstilsynet.dk/da/regler/indeklima/belysning-og-...
Aaargh20318 8y ago
> I don't think even the employers think it's right to have windowless offices As an employee, I hate this rule and would love a windowless office. Right now, I just keep the curtains closed all day.
- socksy 8y ago
  Well, you can close a curtain, you can't usually get a sledgehammer and knock a hole in the wall if your office doesn't have a window and you want one.
- mrweasel 8y ago
  Could you explain why? Do you just prefer a dark room or are you distracted by activities outside your window? I can't really imagine not being look out a windows during the day. Also I think I'd feel trapped without windows, not that I can just jump out my 3rd. floor window.
  - tialaramex 8y ago
    Not your parent poster, but for me the external variable light is mostly a nuisance. It can be too bright and cause glare, or it's not enough and I need artificial lighting anyway. So I just blot it out, I work from home and I do the same across my entire home, blinds block external light and I use artificial light all day. Sunlight is nice if I'm going to be outside admiring nature, but it's crap for reading, playing video games, any number of activities I want to do at home. The cheap place I'll be staying on vacation in a couple of weeks offered a "free upgrade" to a room with a window and I was like "I don't understand - what would I in theory see out of this window?" because it's in a city centre, and obviously as a tourist I shall go out and look at museums and galleries and stuff, I shan't be sat there all day looking out the window, so it seems pointless. The other person I'm going with likes windows, so they'd already paid a little bit extra to have a window anyway. Crazy.
    - mrweasel 8y ago
      Thanks, that makes sense. It's not for me personally, I really like being able to look out and see the light change during the day. There's nothing worse that going outside after work and not having realized that it's gotten dark without me noticing. On a side note I don't think I'd stay in a hotel/motel room without windows, that just seems creepy. For the same reason I don't book room on ferries without windows, even though I'd just see the water.

pi-err 8y ago

IIRC Germany sort of requires all offices to have direct natural light https://www.thelocal.de/galleries/lifestyle/top-ten-weird-german-laws-the-local-list/4 https://www.thelocal.de/galleries/lifestyle/top-ten-weird-ge...

cyxxon 8y ago
While probably true (not checking the real law right now), that list is weirdly misleading. For example it's not forbidden to drill on a sunday or tune your piano at night, you are simply not allowed to disturb other people too much at certain quiet times (e.g. Sunday or the night, so not totally unreasonable either). If you live remotely and nobody hears you, just go ahead. Side note: why would anyone consider it weird to actually have laws in place to protect workers from abusive employers? That's how it seems to be worded on that page...
pluma 8y ago
That list is terrible: 3: pillows may be considered passive weapons but that is irrelevant unless it is used as such or carried in a context where it is likely intended to be used as such (e.g. while participating in a demonstration). That said, assaulting random people in public with a pillow is probably still illegal because it involves assaulting random people (albeit with a weapon that's less likely to cause permanent injuries directly). 5: Both drilling and throwing bottles into containers cause noise pollution. It's not the act itself that's verboten, it's the noise it causes. 6: This is the same thing as 5. The law doesn't give an exhaustive list of activities that might be too damn noisy so I have no idea where these come from. 8: Calling a police officer "du" is a sign of disrespect. If you're new to the language and struggling with the distinction, the police officer will likely correct you or ignore it. Treating police officers disrespectfully is a misdemeanor and addressing them as "du" is one way to be disrespectful. 9: This is a widely held misconception. The "Deutschlandlied" is not illegal. The national anthem only has one verse and that's the third verse of the Deutschlandlied (or actually "Lied der Deutschen"). You can still sing the entire song but if you were going for singing the national anthem, you'll spend two verses singing something that isn't the national anthem. The reason people will still look at you in disgust is the same reason the anthem only uses the third verse: we don't take to jingoism too kindly after WW2. 10: I'm pretty sure it's not a law that you can't drink Export or non-Munich beer at the Oktoberfest, considering the Oktoberfest is in essence just a private event, but it's Bavaria so I'm not sure of this one.

Tor3 8y ago

>Which countries? A lot of European countries, as far as I know. Not sure if it's all of them. But others have replied, so we know about Denmark (and it's the same in the other Scandinavian countries, probably all the Nordic countries, i.e. Scandinavia + Finland and Iceland), Germany, possibly Spain (not sure), Netherlands, ..

rurban 8y ago
For sure Austria also.

zyberzero 8y ago

Sweden as well.

mooss 8y ago

I did an internship last year which consisted in writing unit tests for a raytracing library that was among other things - I was told - used to determine if buildings were on paper getting enough sunlight according to european standards. I'm not sure whether they were talking about EU regulations or about the regulations of specific european countries. Edit: typos

dithering 8y ago
From my basement in London: Probably specific countries.
- quietbritishjim 8y ago
  Is it an old building? There are some basement offices in London, and presumably other countries, with either no windows or pointlessly small/ineffective ones (like those little glass blocks you see on the pavement occasionally). I wonder if light regulations would have to have exclusions for old buildings that are impractical to change (a bit like minimum platform widths at train stations don't apply to some old stations).
- rsynnott 8y ago
  I think there are at least two separate issues here; some countries have health and safety laws requiring natural light, while others require natural light in newly-built offices (as a condition of planning etc). Can you build an office in London these days that doesn't have natural light in the main spaces? I'd be sceptical.
  - dithering 8y ago
    Old building. Managed offices, completely gutted internally last year. I don't know if that wound count as new build. Probably not.
    - rsynnott 8y ago
      No, definitely not. You get away with all sorts of things with a sufficiently old building.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

duchenne 8y ago

In France, natural lighting is also mandatory. source in French: https://www.senat.fr/questions/base/2012/qSEQ121002524.html https://www.senat.fr/questions/base/2012/qSEQ121002524.html

flr03 8y ago
If I remember correctly, in France, if you work like in a mall or a basement you are allowed extra days off ("Jours soleil").

Someone 8y ago

Certainly the EU. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A31989L0654 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A...: ”8. Natural and artificial room lighting 8.1. Workplaces must as far as possible receive sufficient natural light and be equipped with artificial lighting adequate for the protection of workers' safety and health. […] 10. Windows and skylights 10.1. It must be possible for workers to open, close, adjust or secure windows, skylights and ventilators in a safe manner. When open, they must not be positioned so as to constitute a hazard to workers.” Effective since December 31, 1992 (two years later for Greece)

ensignavenger 8y ago
"as far as possible"... I wonder how that is interpreted? Does that exclude buildings older than the code? Does it prevent new buildings from being constructed without these features? It would always be "possible" if enough money was spent on it (and you ignore other considerations, like historical values)...
- InternetOfStuff 8y ago
  > I wonder how that is interpreted? * If the nature of what goes on inside a room conflicts with the presence of windows -- e.g. labs (say, a laser lab) * if the room isn't meant to be used by humans (e.g. storage closets, server rooms) -- If humans sometimes enter such rooms that's OK, but it can't be their "assigned workplace".
- Someone 8y ago
  It’s the EU, so you can count on it being reasonable. The example I know of where it isn’t enforced is of people working inside a refrigerator. I can imagine security conscious jobs and radiology departments also may be exceptions. It also doesn’t mean all rooms need windows or even natural light. Toilet rooms often don’t, for example, and storage rooms often only have windows high in the walls or in the ceiling (typically way more than in “a room with a view” in Cupertino :-) )
- pjc50 8y ago

vlehto 8y ago

In Finland the building code requires that all office spaces and apartments have a window. It's possible to circumvent this by putting an office into space that was designed as storage or as factory. But you will then usually also lack toilets, kitchen and decent air condition. If you do the renovation to get those things and abide by the law, you will have to arrange a window too. In practice some individuals in overstaffed offices will work from a space that was originally storage, then negotiation room and now a shitty office room.