11 ms·

What Dropbox dropping Linux support says

wbl 8y ago
The whole point of filesystems is they present the same interface. ZFS and ext4 should just work the same for Dropbox.
- freedomben 8y ago
  > The whole point of filesystems is they present the same interface. ZFS and ext4 should just work the same for Dropbox. This is unfortunately not true, especially with ZFS and ext4 that you mentioned. ZFS is different enough that you can't even use tools like `df` and `du`. You need to use the ZFS tools.
  - userbinator 8y ago
    ZFS is different enough that you can't even use tools like `df` and `du`. I'm not as sure about df, but I've written a du or at least something approaching one before --- how does it not break every other application that relies on stat() and the file size that it returns?
    - cmurphycode 8y ago
      One reason for du/df problems with ZFS is ZFS compression.
  - LeoPanthera 8y ago
    At least on FreeBSD, both those tools have been explicitly patched for ZFS. (See, for example, the -A switch to du.)
    - DannyB2 8y ago
      Your statement proves the point that developing for Linux means having to support many choices. What patches will be needed for yet some different filesystem, or init system, or desktop interface? And how many hundreds or thousands of programs might be affected?
- roenxi 8y ago
  In the main I agree, but 2 caveats here: 1) The interface cannot be magically guaranteed as appropriate. In this case, Dropbox implicitly believes they need capabilities that the standard filesystem interface is not providing. 2) If the differences between filesystems were not interesting, we wouldn't have different filesystems. ZFS and ext4 have to be different, and hence incompatible, in some interesting way, or why have both?
  - Dylan16807 8y ago
    They have different performance metrics, they act differently when you unplug them, and they have different administrative features. Only the power loss scenario is something an application should ever care about, and even then it would either be "requires ZFS" or "doesn't care".
  - userbinator 8y ago
    If the differences between filesystems were not interesting, we wouldn't have different filesystems. The differences between filesystems are largely implementation differences, not interface ones. They all essentially provide a way to store hierarchically named streams of bytes. If it was something like a formatter, fscker, defragger or similar utility I could definitely see the reason behind "only X filesystems are supported" --- they need to access the low-level data structures, but (disclaimer: haven't used it before) AFAIK all that Dropbox does is sync changes in files between your local filesystem and some cloud server --- which doesn't seem like the sort of functionality that requires anything more than the basic FS API. (If it hasn't already been done, someone should write their own client, or patch out a stupid check and show that, yes, Dropbox does work on just about any filesystem.)
    - pllbnk 8y ago
      I can talk from personal experience that usually one of the two problems appear when developing cross-platform products: 1. The documentation states that the API is 99% the same and should be sufficient to write most applications except the most advanced ones. And then you hit that one difference which is required for feature parity between platforms which requires either a small hack or a massive workaround which will have to be supported indefinitely. 2. Even if the APIs are the same, the performance characteristics of the systems are different because some of those systems might not be meant to satisfy the same use cases as others and different workarounds are required for cross-platform support. Dropbox desktop application might look simple from the outside, but it must contain some advanced features that its user base might require: directory exclusion from syncing, real-time file sync progress monitoring, displaying the UI status of the synchronization, real-time file change monitoring (as opposed to scanning the directory periodically for modification dates or content changes in the worst case) and many others I couldn't think of right now. So, basically, you can almost always find some open-source alternative for your needs but it will probably only be tested on one platform and will probably contain only a subset of features. I recently had a hard time finding a good enough implementation for Google Drive for Ubuntu.
replies_to_all 8y ago
My University gives us unlimited space with Box.com, so its dumb no to use them. To do so, I use InSync to sync my desktop files to Google Drive, then have a server set that keeps a copy of all files in a google drive folder and a Box folder and syncs between the two. They hate us, does that mean we are winning or losing?
misterbowfinger 8y ago
> Given the disaster that has been Windows over the last few years, and that Apple hardware is often out of the price range of the average user, Linux should be primed to take over the market. I feel similarly. I'm a big Mac fan, but I'm confused why Linux isn't the obvious alternative. I'm guessing the issues are the following: 1) PCs/Laptops to consumers ship with Windows installed by default, likely a distribution partnership w/ Microsoft 2) Popular games run best on Windows Problem (1) is difficult because of Microsoft's deep pockets. But it feels like it's possible to attack problem (2). The gaming industry has huge sway on the market. For example, many serious gamers build their own rigs. If gaming companies introduce an open standard that Windows OS's need to abide by to build games, then.... maybe Linux can benefit as well? I suspect this hugely benefits gaming companies too, because they would be able to develop on open source technology and not have to test their builds on proprietary technology. Honestly, that workflow sounds miserable AND expensive.
- Jtsummers 8y ago
  Linux has too many options. Mainstream users want to be able to get the same thing (or near it) on every computer they use. If I install Linux and you install Linux, are they the same? Maybe. But if we both install Windows or both install macOS? Yes. These options become intimidating. It's the same reason many people stuck with Windows XP until their computers caught fire or whatever other reasons they had to finally abandon it. Gaming is also a factor. A better gaming story would drive up adoption amongst gamers and maybe spread to the people in their circles. But you'd have to have one or two distros that were particularly good for gaming that the majority of them used.
  - freedomben 8y ago
    > Linux has too many options. Mainstream users want to be able to get the same thing (or near it) on every computer they use. While I personally rejoice at the choice, unfortunately I believe you are right. I have switched quite a few people to Linux, technical and non-technical. The technical people tend to get excited about choice, and sometimes go read for hours on the different DE options. Non-technical people get a look of anxiety on their face, and even a little panic. I started defaulting *younger users to Gnome 3 and older users to MATE, and it has been a terrific decision.
RickJWagner 8y ago
Deeply disappointing. My primary machines are Linux and this is a step backward. I really think Linux will finally win the desktop (someday. Clearly not today.)
- jaredklewis 8y ago
  > I really think Linux will finally win the desktop (someday. Clearly not today.) Not to get too off topic, but why do you think this? (Genuine question, no snark). I love linux, but from my perspective, Linux desktop seems only marginally more mainstream than 5 years ago. ChromeOS is doing ok I guess, but if that is how linux wins the desktop, it’s a very pyrrhic victory. ChromeOS is Linux, but not any of the parts I like about it.
  - freedomben 8y ago
    > ChromeOS is doing ok I guess, but if that is how linux wins the desktop, it’s a very pyrrhic victory. ChromeOS is Linux, but not any of the parts I like about it. Partially agree, although using Crouton it's been very easy to run Ubuntu on a Chromebook for years. Also Debian is about to get first class support. That and the ability to run Android apps is becoming really compelling to me.
  - j88439h84 8y ago
    The Dell XPS laptop comes with ubuntu and is the best laptop I've ever had.
    - freedomben 8y ago
      Agreed, the Dell is amazing. First laptop that I thought legitimately beat the look, feel, and build quality of a Macbook. Pricey tho.
      - meritt 8y ago
        Pricey? Maybe in comparison to a budget laptop but as you're comparing it to a Macbook, it's not even close to the price of a similar configuration there. My local Costco has Dell XPS 13s and Lenovo X1s for ~$1400.
gcb0 8y ago
it says two things: - using their own APIs is so painful that any internal client has a high cost - they are betting more on walled garden platforms, which means they will pivot to ad-based soon.
all_blue_chucks 8y ago
Huh. That was the only reason I used it. What has the most space now, Amazon Drive?
- zeta0134 8y ago
  I switched to Syncthing a while back and haven't looked back. It's self-hosted, so there are no storage limits, and if you care to put in the work (setup is a tad more complex), it's also pretty easy to hook it up to a cloud server, which nets you an off-site backup. Syncthing doesn't quite have the "Just Works" factor that Dropbox's offering has, but I don't need that; the ability to synchronize several terrabytes of my personal archives (I have a lot of data) was more than worth the effort. https://syncthing.net/ https://syncthing.net/
  - freedomben 8y ago
    I wouldn't recommend having syncthing be your only backup, at least for important files (like photos/videos of your kids). It was a couple years ago, but a syncthing bug was eating large files. Take this anecdotal report with a dash of salt. It didn't happen to me. Happened to a friend of mine. That said, I wouldn't make Google Drive or Dropbox your only backup either.
    - m_eiman 8y ago
      More generally: sync is not backup. Backups need to have versioning (like Time Machine) or manual syncing (like rsync to external/remote drive).
  - pymai 8y ago
    I'm thinking of switching to syncthing soon, but I would probably recommend resilio to less techy types since it seems like its slightly easier to use, especially if you are paying the subscription fee where you can have all your folders added on new computers
- dleslie 8y ago
  I use OneDrive with the unofficial client by abraunegg. It works _almost_ flawlessly; and the twice now that I've had a bug they've fixed it within 24h; even when one happened on a Saturday. https://github.com/abraunegg/onedrive https://github.com/abraunegg/onedrive
cwyers 8y ago
> I am certainly not saying that Linux needs fewer choices. However, I've said this before, and I think it could use repeating. There needs to be a standard, a sort of "universal Linux" that companies (such as Microsoft or Adobe) can support. This is very complicated. Which distribution would serve as the "universal"? Or should a brand new distribution be created? Which desktop? Which init system? Which filesystem? Those questions continue to haunt Linux and prevent it from gaining widespread acceptance on the desktop. [obligatory xkcd link here]
- zeta0134 8y ago
  I knew which XKCD you were referring to without you even needing to link it, but if you _must_ obligatorily link xkcd comics, do remember to actually post the link. https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/ As for Linux standards, at least in the datacenter I work in, by FAR the two most popular distributions are Ubuntu and RedHat. For home users RedHat would translate to Fedora (which is roughly RedHat's upstream), and for businesses not wanting to deal with RedHat licensing, CentOS. Everything else seems to be fringe, at least as far as servers go. If companies all agreed to target Fedora / Ubuntu, and the Gnome Desktop as our sort of casual starting point? That would work. It would have lots of room for improvement (Gnome's UI is... strongly opinionated), but I still think it might work.
  - alanfranzoni 8y ago
    I thought about this one: https://xkcd.com/456/ https://xkcd.com/456/
- zaarn 8y ago
  Flatpak has been doing a good job of doing the "universal linux" since the application can simply bring their own Linux and have a common interface into the user's computer with some sandboxing thrown in.
jmull 8y ago
> ...it never ceases to amaze me that Linux has yet to take hold on the desktop market. If you don’t get this you should probably just admit you don’t understand the desktop market and refrain from commenting.
- PostOnce 8y ago
  The average user probably wouldn't know the difference, since a computer is a browser and an office suite -- but there's no real incentive to sell anyone Linux? It wouldn't make anyone much more money, so what company would bother? Thinking out loud, I haven't thoroughly researched my position but it sounds plausible. edit: the implication being they're just going to use whatever is installed on the laptop that they pick up for $400 at the store, which of course will always be Windows, since Microsoft can afford to make the effort to sell it. Why would any regular person go to the effort of installing another OS for the same functionality?
  - hluska 8y ago
    What could happen to demand if you dropped $150 from the price of a machine that would serve the needs of those average users?
    - belltaco 8y ago
      Windows costs the OEM much less, it's almost free when you add in the money they get from bundling software like antivirus trials etc.which they won't get from installing Linux or selling without an OS. Also their support staff are trained to handle Windows. Adding Linux to the mix will increase costs.
    - jarfil 8y ago
      What would happen is the Asus Eee, which got such a high rate of returned units from people who didn't understand Linux that it ultimately got canceled.
      - meekins 8y ago
modzu 8y ago
would linus torvolds please stand up? he uses fedora; could fedora be The One? (in the article, author argues for a "standard desktop distribution" to rule them all)
anotherevan 8y ago
While I use ext4 on my home Linux machine, so not hit there. However on my office Windows machine my Dropbox folder resides on a Veracrypt (née Truecrypt) partition, which Dropbox has started complaining about. So far SyncThing is looking pretty good in general. Two things I would really like to see: * Support for non-trusted servers[1] * Android app that is able to view and pull files down as desired (and possibly with the option to flag individual files to always be cached locally). You usually don't want your phone to hold local copies of everything in the shared folder(s) as it is usually space constrained. [1] https://github.com/syncthing/syncthing/issues/109 https://github.com/syncthing/syncthing/issues/109
- bchallenor 8y ago
  syncthing-lite [1] is already supposed to do what you want for your second point. But it's not really there yet. I haven't managed to get it to work reliably (unlike the original app, which is great). [1] https://github.com/syncthing/syncthing-lite https://github.com/syncthing/syncthing-lite
belltaco 8y ago
>Outside of this being a big mistake on the part of Dropbox Why is it a big mistake? Most likely they're not seeing enough revenue to keep supporting the other filesystems, otherwise why would they cancel support for them? >Given the disaster that has been Windows over the last few years Only if you don't come out of your bubble.
- ben010783 8y ago
  That Windows comment didn't make sense to me either. The last few years have been good for Windows.
- rogerbinns 8y ago
  > Why is it a big mistake? Most likely they're not seeing enough revenue to keep supporting the other filesystems, otherwise why would they cancel support for them? Dropbox is in a viral business, and they were the only ones who supported Linux. Starting with Linux support, Dropbox's competition essentially completely ignores Linux. Box, Google Drive, One Drive etc all have no official Linux client. That makes it fair to say that some of Dropbox's customers are there because of the Linux support (I'm one of them). Note that a customer doesn't wholly have to be on Linux, but if for example 10% of the people at a customer could be on Linux, so using Dropbox for all of them makes sense, because of the Linux minority. This is a viral business in that you use similar tools to collaborate with others. Dropbox did their spread not via marketing, but by word of mouth and minor storage bonuses as rewards for the spread. (Been there, done that.) But now there is going to be limiting of that spread by Linux folk affected by this. Dropbox is now going to lose $1k+ per year because I'm dropping them as a paid personal and work customer. A tiny drop in the bucket indeed, but this will all add up. I think they are idiotic to take a unique selling point, and throw that away. I can't think of a single thing that makes them competitive with the alternatives now. The technical solution I would adopt is a more minimal sync mode when operating on non-optimal filesystems, and standard sync on supported filesystems. This is all like compound interest. They have narrowed their customer base and made that rate a little lower. In the long term it could just turn out to be a terrible decision - my expectation.
PurpleRamen 8y ago
Misleading title. They don't drop linux-support, they drop support for certain filesystems and defined which filesystems they will continue to support.
originalsimba 8y ago
It says "Goodbye Dropbox!"
wheresvic1 8y ago
This is a very interesting article and to be fair while I agree with the author's conclusions that it would be great to have a standard Linux distro to refer to, I thought we had already hit that point with Ubuntu. Nowadays, I have seen quite a few download software pages that simply list Ubuntu rather than Linux. Anyways, for those complaining about how difficult it is to get anything to work with linux those days were 10 years ago, I invite you to spin up a Ubuntu VM and give it a test drive :) (Happy linux user since 13 years)
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
  Ubuntu almost succeeded in that respect, but at some point Canonical seemed to have gone insane with NIH duplication and then failed attempts at monitization that seem to have totally killed their momentum.
jwilk 8y ago
Context: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17732912 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17732912
amelius 8y ago
They should just publish the API and let the Linux dev-crowd come up with suitable solutions.
- daniel_iversen 8y ago
  We have an API and you can indeed create your own client (as some have done with ExpanDrive etc.)... Also there are some good open source copy/clone/backup solutions that work well with Dropbox, like rclone.org
LambdaComplex 8y ago
> UPDATE: Although Dropbox will not support ext4 filesystems that have been encrypted with ecryptfs, it will continue to support ext4 filesystems that have been encrypted with LUKS. So, this entire article is complaining about something that isn't even true
- eythian 8y ago
  No, just that it was originally under specified. It supports some encryption (i.e. the type it can't tell is there anyway.) It doesn't support one of the common ways of doing home directory encryption. So the article is definitely true, just more accurate with that update included. That also isn't the crux of the article's point anyway.
- cweagans 8y ago
  They still aren't supporting non-ext4 filesystems anymore.
linuxlizard 8y ago
Developing software for Linux is like painting a moving train. I can understand their problem.
mxuribe 8y ago
I think the challenge in all this is the office suite and stable/native device drivers. Firstly, the "Deciders" in the medium and large enterprises most often simply go with Microsoft's Office products. Regardless if libreoffice (and similar open source office suite offerings) provide the same functionality, these Deciders are already won over; so they simply "go with the flow". In order for there to be some sort of universal linux, there has to be an easy way to run Microsoft's Office products. That takes care of a huge number of typical office worker use-cases. (I'm leaving out surfing on the web, because that is already proven on any linux machine.) Secondly, there is a need for native device drivers. If the Deciders can choose computers for their office workers that "just work", then their choice is easier. For this, computer manufacturers have to really help in crafting native device drivers that support linux. I firmly believe that once the above 2 conditions are attended to, linux will then become something the Deciders can consider for the enterprise...then - with that many large numbers of users around the world - linux will have its day on the desktop.
- awucs 8y ago
  I know this is sort of the commonly held belief, but I disagree. The problem is that the things you mention are primarily things that makes Linux useful for people who are already using it. For everyone else they would just use Windows if that is what they need. That said most businesses don't care about those things either. They will happily use some old version of Internet Explore (in some weird mode no less) and force as many as possible to use Office 365. On top of that a lot of companies have all sort of esoteric solutions for machines sharing, authentication and storage. There have been plenty of efforts to "streamline" Linux for different platforms, with different applications and modern user interface. There just that most things, including the ecosystem, beyond that are lacking.
- jwilcoxson 8y ago
  The first Decider to switch a medium+ business to Linux is going to get his/her ass fired.
- bunderbunder 8y ago
  I think you've got a critical detail wrong here: You're attributing way too much deciding power to the "decider". The head of IT (or whoever) is not someone who gets to just make decisions by fiat. It's someone whose job is fundamentally to respond to the needs and demands of others. Until a significant number of the staff start demanding a Linux desktop environment, a Linux desktop environment is not realistically an option for the "decider". Not if they want to keep their job, anyway. And, when it comes to the non-techie business members, I just don't see Linux having anything to attract them. What can it do better than Windows, from the perspective of Bob from accounting? Not abstract political stuff, mind -- he's just interested in being able to get his job done more easily so he can go home at 5 and kick a ball around with his kid before dinner.
Bizarro 8y ago
Finally, it never ceases to amaze me that Linux has yet to take hold on the desktop market. Given the disaster that has been Windows over the last few years No, not even close to being a given. In fact, it's just not true and he loses a bunch of credibility by saying that.
gargravarr 8y ago
What I'm having trouble understanding about the whole thing, and the author really misses the point by talking about Snap and Flatpak, is that the technical reason Dropbox are only supporting ext4 is apparently the use of extended attributes. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but a filesystem is supposed to abstract these concepts. All current major Linux filesystems (ext2+, btrfs, XFS etc.) support extended attributes. The implementation is irrelevant. It should be exposed to the application in exactly the same way because that's what the filesystem is /for/. Dropbox shouldn't need to worry about this whole thing because they should just be able to call the system API to deal with it. Or have I fundamentally misunderstood the issue?
DannyB2 8y ago
I want to address a point that many here have replied to: > Given the disaster that has been Windows over the last few years Just because Windows has become stable and somewhat secure doesn't mean it hasn't been a disaster. Windows 8 upset everything with a pointless new interface requiring user retraining on even the most basic things like how to log on or log off. How to print. Etc. There are now dual built in apps (preferences) for multiple things, in both the new UI, and the conventional UI. Microsoft even tried to force the new interface onto server desktops. Developers had to write apps a new way. And then there was the store for the new apps. The legacy apps were to become just that -- legacy. Then Microsoft went back to having a start menu and a desktop again. Later, even as the primary interface -- but keeping some of the visual appearance of the "new" interface. And the Windows store. And Windows S. And the market confusion of Windows RT for ARM processors that cannot run legacy applications. But anyone could have (and I did) foresee that consumers would not understand this. Why won't my legacy x86 app run on Windows RT? The entire value proposition of Windows is that it runs legacy apps -- take that away and Windows has little value. Without the apps, it has less software than Linux or Mac. Developers were not going to port their apps to ARM for free. So if you bought Windows RT, be prepared to re-buy your apps. Consumers returned them in droves. For better or worse, Windows is deeply tied to Intel architecture. Much of this upset was changes just to prop up the failing (and now definitely failed) Windows 7, then Windows 8 phone. (Both of which caused the previous efforts of developers to be obsolete and abandoned.) And then redesigning the desktop UI yet again, for no good reason. I think one could be fair in calling this a disaster. Just sayin'
nottorp 8y ago
Say, what are the non self hosted alternatives to Dropbox that are still alive? Same ease of use please, i.e. no Backblaze. I don't mind if it costs a bit.
- wilsonnb3 8y ago
  Owncloud get mentioned from time to time, I've heard it's pretty good.
  - nottorp 8y ago
    Isn't it self hosted?
    - wilsonnb3 8y ago
      You're correct - I read your original comment as "What self hosted alternatives exist?". My bad.
canhascodez 8y ago
So how do we make POSIX II happen?

wbl 8y ago

The whole point of filesystems is they present the same interface. ZFS and ext4 should just work the same for Dropbox.

freedomben 8y ago
> The whole point of filesystems is they present the same interface. ZFS and ext4 should just work the same for Dropbox. This is unfortunately not true, especially with ZFS and ext4 that you mentioned. ZFS is different enough that you can't even use tools like `df` and `du`. You need to use the ZFS tools.
- userbinator 8y ago
  ZFS is different enough that you can't even use tools like `df` and `du`. I'm not as sure about df, but I've written a du or at least something approaching one before --- how does it not break every other application that relies on stat() and the file size that it returns?
  - cmurphycode 8y ago
    One reason for du/df problems with ZFS is ZFS compression.
- LeoPanthera 8y ago
  At least on FreeBSD, both those tools have been explicitly patched for ZFS. (See, for example, the -A switch to du.)
  - DannyB2 8y ago
    Your statement proves the point that developing for Linux means having to support many choices. What patches will be needed for yet some different filesystem, or init system, or desktop interface? And how many hundreds or thousands of programs might be affected?
roenxi 8y ago
In the main I agree, but 2 caveats here: 1) The interface cannot be magically guaranteed as appropriate. In this case, Dropbox implicitly believes they need capabilities that the standard filesystem interface is not providing. 2) If the differences between filesystems were not interesting, we wouldn't have different filesystems. ZFS and ext4 have to be different, and hence incompatible, in some interesting way, or why have both?
- Dylan16807 8y ago
  They have different performance metrics, they act differently when you unplug them, and they have different administrative features. Only the power loss scenario is something an application should ever care about, and even then it would either be "requires ZFS" or "doesn't care".
- userbinator 8y ago
  If the differences between filesystems were not interesting, we wouldn't have different filesystems. The differences between filesystems are largely implementation differences, not interface ones. They all essentially provide a way to store hierarchically named streams of bytes. If it was something like a formatter, fscker, defragger or similar utility I could definitely see the reason behind "only X filesystems are supported" --- they need to access the low-level data structures, but (disclaimer: haven't used it before) AFAIK all that Dropbox does is sync changes in files between your local filesystem and some cloud server --- which doesn't seem like the sort of functionality that requires anything more than the basic FS API. (If it hasn't already been done, someone should write their own client, or patch out a stupid check and show that, yes, Dropbox does work on just about any filesystem.)
  - pllbnk 8y ago
    I can talk from personal experience that usually one of the two problems appear when developing cross-platform products: 1. The documentation states that the API is 99% the same and should be sufficient to write most applications except the most advanced ones. And then you hit that one difference which is required for feature parity between platforms which requires either a small hack or a massive workaround which will have to be supported indefinitely. 2. Even if the APIs are the same, the performance characteristics of the systems are different because some of those systems might not be meant to satisfy the same use cases as others and different workarounds are required for cross-platform support. Dropbox desktop application might look simple from the outside, but it must contain some advanced features that its user base might require: directory exclusion from syncing, real-time file sync progress monitoring, displaying the UI status of the synchronization, real-time file change monitoring (as opposed to scanning the directory periodically for modification dates or content changes in the worst case) and many others I couldn't think of right now. So, basically, you can almost always find some open-source alternative for your needs but it will probably only be tested on one platform and will probably contain only a subset of features. I recently had a hard time finding a good enough implementation for Google Drive for Ubuntu.

My University gives us unlimited space with Box.com, so its dumb no to use them. To do so, I use InSync to sync my desktop files to Google Drive, then have a server set that keeps a copy of all files in a google drive folder and a Box folder and syncs between the two. They hate us, does that mean we are winning or losing?

misterbowfinger 8y ago

> Given the disaster that has been Windows over the last few years, and that Apple hardware is often out of the price range of the average user, Linux should be primed to take over the market. I feel similarly. I'm a big Mac fan, but I'm confused why Linux isn't the obvious alternative. I'm guessing the issues are the following: 1) PCs/Laptops to consumers ship with Windows installed by default, likely a distribution partnership w/ Microsoft 2) Popular games run best on Windows Problem (1) is difficult because of Microsoft's deep pockets. But it feels like it's possible to attack problem (2). The gaming industry has huge sway on the market. For example, many serious gamers build their own rigs. If gaming companies introduce an open standard that Windows OS's need to abide by to build games, then.... maybe Linux can benefit as well? I suspect this hugely benefits gaming companies too, because they would be able to develop on open source technology and not have to test their builds on proprietary technology. Honestly, that workflow sounds miserable AND expensive.

Jtsummers 8y ago
Linux has too many options. Mainstream users want to be able to get the same thing (or near it) on every computer they use. If I install Linux and you install Linux, are they the same? Maybe. But if we both install Windows or both install macOS? Yes. These options become intimidating. It's the same reason many people stuck with Windows XP until their computers caught fire or whatever other reasons they had to finally abandon it. Gaming is also a factor. A better gaming story would drive up adoption amongst gamers and maybe spread to the people in their circles. But you'd have to have one or two distros that were particularly good for gaming that the majority of them used.
- freedomben 8y ago
  > Linux has too many options. Mainstream users want to be able to get the same thing (or near it) on every computer they use. While I personally rejoice at the choice, unfortunately I believe you are right. I have switched quite a few people to Linux, technical and non-technical. The technical people tend to get excited about choice, and sometimes go read for hours on the different DE options. Non-technical people get a look of anxiety on their face, and even a little panic. I started defaulting *younger users to Gnome 3 and older users to MATE, and it has been a terrific decision.

RickJWagner 8y ago

Deeply disappointing. My primary machines are Linux and this is a step backward. I really think Linux will finally win the desktop (someday. Clearly not today.)

jaredklewis 8y ago
> I really think Linux will finally win the desktop (someday. Clearly not today.) Not to get too off topic, but why do you think this? (Genuine question, no snark). I love linux, but from my perspective, Linux desktop seems only marginally more mainstream than 5 years ago. ChromeOS is doing ok I guess, but if that is how linux wins the desktop, it’s a very pyrrhic victory. ChromeOS is Linux, but not any of the parts I like about it.
- freedomben 8y ago
  > ChromeOS is doing ok I guess, but if that is how linux wins the desktop, it’s a very pyrrhic victory. ChromeOS is Linux, but not any of the parts I like about it. Partially agree, although using Crouton it's been very easy to run Ubuntu on a Chromebook for years. Also Debian is about to get first class support. That and the ability to run Android apps is becoming really compelling to me.
- j88439h84 8y ago
  The Dell XPS laptop comes with ubuntu and is the best laptop I've ever had.
  - freedomben 8y ago
    Agreed, the Dell is amazing. First laptop that I thought legitimately beat the look, feel, and build quality of a Macbook. Pricey tho.
    - meritt 8y ago
      Pricey? Maybe in comparison to a budget laptop but as you're comparing it to a Macbook, it's not even close to the price of a similar configuration there. My local Costco has Dell XPS 13s and Lenovo X1s for ~$1400.

gcb0 8y ago

it says two things: - using their own APIs is so painful that any internal client has a high cost - they are betting more on walled garden platforms, which means they will pivot to ad-based soon.

all_blue_chucks 8y ago

Huh. That was the only reason I used it. What has the most space now, Amazon Drive?

zeta0134 8y ago
I switched to Syncthing a while back and haven't looked back. It's self-hosted, so there are no storage limits, and if you care to put in the work (setup is a tad more complex), it's also pretty easy to hook it up to a cloud server, which nets you an off-site backup. Syncthing doesn't quite have the "Just Works" factor that Dropbox's offering has, but I don't need that; the ability to synchronize several terrabytes of my personal archives (I have a lot of data) was more than worth the effort. https://syncthing.net/ https://syncthing.net/
- freedomben 8y ago
  I wouldn't recommend having syncthing be your only backup, at least for important files (like photos/videos of your kids). It was a couple years ago, but a syncthing bug was eating large files. Take this anecdotal report with a dash of salt. It didn't happen to me. Happened to a friend of mine. That said, I wouldn't make Google Drive or Dropbox your only backup either.
  - m_eiman 8y ago
    More generally: sync is not backup. Backups need to have versioning (like Time Machine) or manual syncing (like rsync to external/remote drive).
- pymai 8y ago
  I'm thinking of switching to syncthing soon, but I would probably recommend resilio to less techy types since it seems like its slightly easier to use, especially if you are paying the subscription fee where you can have all your folders added on new computers
dleslie 8y ago
I use OneDrive with the unofficial client by abraunegg. It works _almost_ flawlessly; and the twice now that I've had a bug they've fixed it within 24h; even when one happened on a Saturday. https://github.com/abraunegg/onedrive https://github.com/abraunegg/onedrive

cwyers 8y ago

> I am certainly not saying that Linux needs fewer choices. However, I've said this before, and I think it could use repeating. There needs to be a standard, a sort of "universal Linux" that companies (such as Microsoft or Adobe) can support. This is very complicated. Which distribution would serve as the "universal"? Or should a brand new distribution be created? Which desktop? Which init system? Which filesystem? Those questions continue to haunt Linux and prevent it from gaining widespread acceptance on the desktop. [obligatory xkcd link here]

zeta0134 8y ago
I knew which XKCD you were referring to without you even needing to link it, but if you _must_ obligatorily link xkcd comics, do remember to actually post the link. https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/ As for Linux standards, at least in the datacenter I work in, by FAR the two most popular distributions are Ubuntu and RedHat. For home users RedHat would translate to Fedora (which is roughly RedHat's upstream), and for businesses not wanting to deal with RedHat licensing, CentOS. Everything else seems to be fringe, at least as far as servers go. If companies all agreed to target Fedora / Ubuntu, and the Gnome Desktop as our sort of casual starting point? That would work. It would have lots of room for improvement (Gnome's UI is... strongly opinionated), but I still think it might work.
- alanfranzoni 8y ago
  I thought about this one: https://xkcd.com/456/ https://xkcd.com/456/
zaarn 8y ago
Flatpak has been doing a good job of doing the "universal linux" since the application can simply bring their own Linux and have a common interface into the user's computer with some sandboxing thrown in.

jmull 8y ago

> ...it never ceases to amaze me that Linux has yet to take hold on the desktop market. If you don’t get this you should probably just admit you don’t understand the desktop market and refrain from commenting.

PostOnce 8y ago
The average user probably wouldn't know the difference, since a computer is a browser and an office suite -- but there's no real incentive to sell anyone Linux? It wouldn't make anyone much more money, so what company would bother? Thinking out loud, I haven't thoroughly researched my position but it sounds plausible. edit: the implication being they're just going to use whatever is installed on the laptop that they pick up for $400 at the store, which of course will always be Windows, since Microsoft can afford to make the effort to sell it. Why would any regular person go to the effort of installing another OS for the same functionality?
- hluska 8y ago
  What could happen to demand if you dropped $150 from the price of a machine that would serve the needs of those average users?
  - belltaco 8y ago
    Windows costs the OEM much less, it's almost free when you add in the money they get from bundling software like antivirus trials etc.which they won't get from installing Linux or selling without an OS. Also their support staff are trained to handle Windows. Adding Linux to the mix will increase costs.
  - jarfil 8y ago
    What would happen is the Asus Eee, which got such a high rate of returned units from people who didn't understand Linux that it ultimately got canceled.
    - meekins 8y ago

modzu 8y ago

would linus torvolds please stand up? he uses fedora; could fedora be The One? (in the article, author argues for a "standard desktop distribution" to rule them all)

anotherevan 8y ago

While I use ext4 on my home Linux machine, so not hit there. However on my office Windows machine my Dropbox folder resides on a Veracrypt (née Truecrypt) partition, which Dropbox has started complaining about. So far SyncThing is looking pretty good in general. Two things I would really like to see: * Support for non-trusted servers[1] * Android app that is able to view and pull files down as desired (and possibly with the option to flag individual files to always be cached locally). You usually don't want your phone to hold local copies of everything in the shared folder(s) as it is usually space constrained. [1] https://github.com/syncthing/syncthing/issues/109 https://github.com/syncthing/syncthing/issues/109

bchallenor 8y ago
syncthing-lite [1] is already supposed to do what you want for your second point. But it's not really there yet. I haven't managed to get it to work reliably (unlike the original app, which is great). [1] https://github.com/syncthing/syncthing-lite https://github.com/syncthing/syncthing-lite

belltaco 8y ago

>Outside of this being a big mistake on the part of Dropbox Why is it a big mistake? Most likely they're not seeing enough revenue to keep supporting the other filesystems, otherwise why would they cancel support for them? >Given the disaster that has been Windows over the last few years Only if you don't come out of your bubble.

ben010783 8y ago
That Windows comment didn't make sense to me either. The last few years have been good for Windows.
rogerbinns 8y ago
> Why is it a big mistake? Most likely they're not seeing enough revenue to keep supporting the other filesystems, otherwise why would they cancel support for them? Dropbox is in a viral business, and they were the only ones who supported Linux. Starting with Linux support, Dropbox's competition essentially completely ignores Linux. Box, Google Drive, One Drive etc all have no official Linux client. That makes it fair to say that some of Dropbox's customers are there because of the Linux support (I'm one of them). Note that a customer doesn't wholly have to be on Linux, but if for example 10% of the people at a customer could be on Linux, so using Dropbox for all of them makes sense, because of the Linux minority. This is a viral business in that you use similar tools to collaborate with others. Dropbox did their spread not via marketing, but by word of mouth and minor storage bonuses as rewards for the spread. (Been there, done that.) But now there is going to be limiting of that spread by Linux folk affected by this. Dropbox is now going to lose $1k+ per year because I'm dropping them as a paid personal and work customer. A tiny drop in the bucket indeed, but this will all add up. I think they are idiotic to take a unique selling point, and throw that away. I can't think of a single thing that makes them competitive with the alternatives now. The technical solution I would adopt is a more minimal sync mode when operating on non-optimal filesystems, and standard sync on supported filesystems. This is all like compound interest. They have narrowed their customer base and made that rate a little lower. In the long term it could just turn out to be a terrible decision - my expectation.

PurpleRamen 8y ago

Misleading title. They don't drop linux-support, they drop support for certain filesystems and defined which filesystems they will continue to support.

originalsimba 8y ago

It says "Goodbye Dropbox!"

wheresvic1 8y ago

This is a very interesting article and to be fair while I agree with the author's conclusions that it would be great to have a standard Linux distro to refer to, I thought we had already hit that point with Ubuntu. Nowadays, I have seen quite a few download software pages that simply list Ubuntu rather than Linux. Anyways, for those complaining about how difficult it is to get anything to work with linux those days were 10 years ago, I invite you to spin up a Ubuntu VM and give it a test drive :) (Happy linux user since 13 years)

AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
Ubuntu almost succeeded in that respect, but at some point Canonical seemed to have gone insane with NIH duplication and then failed attempts at monitization that seem to have totally killed their momentum.

jwilk 8y ago

Context: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17732912 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17732912

amelius 8y ago

They should just publish the API and let the Linux dev-crowd come up with suitable solutions.

daniel_iversen 8y ago
We have an API and you can indeed create your own client (as some have done with ExpanDrive etc.)... Also there are some good open source copy/clone/backup solutions that work well with Dropbox, like rclone.org

LambdaComplex 8y ago

> UPDATE: Although Dropbox will not support ext4 filesystems that have been encrypted with ecryptfs, it will continue to support ext4 filesystems that have been encrypted with LUKS. So, this entire article is complaining about something that isn't even true

eythian 8y ago
No, just that it was originally under specified. It supports some encryption (i.e. the type it can't tell is there anyway.) It doesn't support one of the common ways of doing home directory encryption. So the article is definitely true, just more accurate with that update included. That also isn't the crux of the article's point anyway.
cweagans 8y ago
They still aren't supporting non-ext4 filesystems anymore.

linuxlizard 8y ago

Developing software for Linux is like painting a moving train. I can understand their problem.

mxuribe 8y ago

I think the challenge in all this is the office suite and stable/native device drivers. Firstly, the "Deciders" in the medium and large enterprises most often simply go with Microsoft's Office products. Regardless if libreoffice (and similar open source office suite offerings) provide the same functionality, these Deciders are already won over; so they simply "go with the flow". In order for there to be some sort of universal linux, there has to be an easy way to run Microsoft's Office products. That takes care of a huge number of typical office worker use-cases. (I'm leaving out surfing on the web, because that is already proven on any linux machine.) Secondly, there is a need for native device drivers. If the Deciders can choose computers for their office workers that "just work", then their choice is easier. For this, computer manufacturers have to really help in crafting native device drivers that support linux. I firmly believe that once the above 2 conditions are attended to, linux will then become something the Deciders can consider for the enterprise...then - with that many large numbers of users around the world - linux will have its day on the desktop.

awucs 8y ago
I know this is sort of the commonly held belief, but I disagree. The problem is that the things you mention are primarily things that makes Linux useful for people who are already using it. For everyone else they would just use Windows if that is what they need. That said most businesses don't care about those things either. They will happily use some old version of Internet Explore (in some weird mode no less) and force as many as possible to use Office 365. On top of that a lot of companies have all sort of esoteric solutions for machines sharing, authentication and storage. There have been plenty of efforts to "streamline" Linux for different platforms, with different applications and modern user interface. There just that most things, including the ecosystem, beyond that are lacking.
jwilcoxson 8y ago
The first Decider to switch a medium+ business to Linux is going to get his/her ass fired.
bunderbunder 8y ago
I think you've got a critical detail wrong here: You're attributing way too much deciding power to the "decider". The head of IT (or whoever) is not someone who gets to just make decisions by fiat. It's someone whose job is fundamentally to respond to the needs and demands of others. Until a significant number of the staff start demanding a Linux desktop environment, a Linux desktop environment is not realistically an option for the "decider". Not if they want to keep their job, anyway. And, when it comes to the non-techie business members, I just don't see Linux having anything to attract them. What can it do better than Windows, from the perspective of Bob from accounting? Not abstract political stuff, mind -- he's just interested in being able to get his job done more easily so he can go home at 5 and kick a ball around with his kid before dinner.

Bizarro 8y ago

Finally, it never ceases to amaze me that Linux has yet to take hold on the desktop market. Given the disaster that has been Windows over the last few years No, not even close to being a given. In fact, it's just not true and he loses a bunch of credibility by saying that.

gargravarr 8y ago

What I'm having trouble understanding about the whole thing, and the author really misses the point by talking about Snap and Flatpak, is that the technical reason Dropbox are only supporting ext4 is apparently the use of extended attributes. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but a filesystem is supposed to abstract these concepts. All current major Linux filesystems (ext2+, btrfs, XFS etc.) support extended attributes. The implementation is irrelevant. It should be exposed to the application in exactly the same way because that's what the filesystem is /for/. Dropbox shouldn't need to worry about this whole thing because they should just be able to call the system API to deal with it. Or have I fundamentally misunderstood the issue?

DannyB2 8y ago

I want to address a point that many here have replied to: > Given the disaster that has been Windows over the last few years Just because Windows has become stable and somewhat secure doesn't mean it hasn't been a disaster. Windows 8 upset everything with a pointless new interface requiring user retraining on even the most basic things like how to log on or log off. How to print. Etc. There are now dual built in apps (preferences) for multiple things, in both the new UI, and the conventional UI. Microsoft even tried to force the new interface onto server desktops. Developers had to write apps a new way. And then there was the store for the new apps. The legacy apps were to become just that -- legacy. Then Microsoft went back to having a start menu and a desktop again. Later, even as the primary interface -- but keeping some of the visual appearance of the "new" interface. And the Windows store. And Windows S. And the market confusion of Windows RT for ARM processors that cannot run legacy applications. But anyone could have (and I did) foresee that consumers would not understand this. Why won't my legacy x86 app run on Windows RT? The entire value proposition of Windows is that it runs legacy apps -- take that away and Windows has little value. Without the apps, it has less software than Linux or Mac. Developers were not going to port their apps to ARM for free. So if you bought Windows RT, be prepared to re-buy your apps. Consumers returned them in droves. For better or worse, Windows is deeply tied to Intel architecture. Much of this upset was changes just to prop up the failing (and now definitely failed) Windows 7, then Windows 8 phone. (Both of which caused the previous efforts of developers to be obsolete and abandoned.) And then redesigning the desktop UI yet again, for no good reason. I think one could be fair in calling this a disaster. Just sayin'

nottorp 8y ago

Say, what are the non self hosted alternatives to Dropbox that are still alive? Same ease of use please, i.e. no Backblaze. I don't mind if it costs a bit.

wilsonnb3 8y ago
Owncloud get mentioned from time to time, I've heard it's pretty good.
- nottorp 8y ago
  Isn't it self hosted?
  - wilsonnb3 8y ago
    You're correct - I read your original comment as "What self hosted alternatives exist?". My bad.

canhascodez 8y ago

So how do we make POSIX II happen?