23 ms·

The new MacBook Pros with T2 chips do indeed kernel panic randomly

257 points by miles 8y ago

cygned 8y ago
Holding off buying a new MacBook Pro at the moment. It’s like issues pop up every other week and I simply cannot buy a machine that is not reliable. Also looking into a Lenovo Thinkpad w/ CentOS as an alternative, even though it would be difficult. It’s a pity.
- bpicolo 8y ago
  Potentially a large part of that is just visibility into issues on account social media and distribution scale. People keep an eye on Apple hardware issues far closer than any other vendor
  - cptskippy 8y ago
    And most other vendors sell significantly fewer units across many more SKUs. Thus you would expect with a smaller product portfolio you'd have greater engineering resources to work out the kinks.
  - nkkollaw 8y ago
    Yes, specially since class actions are needed just to make them acknowledge the problem (talking about their keyboards now).
  - jwalton 8y ago
    I have a 15" 2018 MBP, with 32g of RAM. And, while I don't care for the touchbar or the feels-like-I'm-typing-on-a-hollow-piece-of-wood keyboard, I also haven't had any kernel panics or crackly speakers or any other problems. Which is not to say I won't, but I haven't yet.
- dijit 8y ago
  Linux these days is incredibly stable. As long as you have a laptop that has reasonably high quality (read: open) drivers. Intel graphics, Wi-Fi and a decent SSD/HDD from a known brand is usually enough to have a trouble free personal compute platform. I have a precision 5520 and haven’t had a single Linux/hardware related issue, before that I had a Thinkpad x201s, and an x201 before that- and further back still I had a T400. It’s been more than a decade since I’ve personally seen a Linux+hardware issue. — That said, the value of a MacBook is the build quality of the device and the application ecosystem. Try getting Skype for business and outlook working on a Linux laptop. :/
  - cygned 8y ago
    Luckily, Skype is nothing I need to use. However, I would miss applications, namely Sketch. And I’d need to run Windows in a VM. I am also not sure about the build quality. Despite the keyboard, MacBooks are very well designed and built devices.
    - noir_lord 8y ago
      I have last years T470P (the i7-7700HQ/2560x1440@14" model) and it's phenomenally good with 32GB of RAM and an m2 SSD it screams, enough that I delayed my new development desktop at home from July last year til Ryzen 2 next year.
    - KozmoNau7 8y ago
      So are Thinkpads, Elitebooks, Probooks, Latitudes and Precisions.
    - eropple 8y ago
      They are. But so are a few PC lines. For my money, the ThinkPad T480 hits the sweet spot--the keyboard is reminiscent of the older rMBPs (but a little more throw, it seems), with a good-enough touchpad and enough battery life to last basically as long as I could ever see needing it. (I'm not a fan of the XPS 13 or 15; the keyboard is a little clicky and the touchpad is not good.)
  - danShumway 8y ago
    I use Linux exclusively across all of my computers. The biggest problem is touch support - you can get drivers working fine, but the ecosystem is terrible. Open Source applications are an entire generation behind on basic gesture support. The best drawing apps on Linux don't even support pinch-to-zoom. This is a solvable problem that I expect to improve, albeit probably not any time soon, and I'm still incredibly frustrated by it right now. Seriously people, just test your software, even a little bit, on a convertible device. But... if you're not an artist, and you're not using a tablet, and you have someone who can even just help you get set up a little, you kinda, maybe, probably should be at least looking at Linux? Especially if you're using a computer as a professional. It used to not be this way at all, but I think that modern Linux is generally way more stable than Mac or Windows, and is generally easier to work with for professionals. It's starting to reach the point where it may be easier for low-tech users as well, since you can get someone else to set up a computer with exactly the stuff you want, and then only install security updates. It's a major selling point for me to be able to go to someone and say, "Hey, Ubuntu will support an LTS for 5 years. You won't need to change a single thing about your interface, and everything will just keep working."
- tbrock 8y ago
  Get a ThinkPad X1 Carbon 6th gen with Arch Linux or Fedora. Forget CentOS.
  - cygned 8y ago
    Please elaborate. Why using Fedora when I could go with CentOS?
    - tbrock 8y ago
      Newer drivers. They are the same basic OS but it’s not a server so you actually care about the newness of the drivers and other client software.
      - cygned 8y ago
        I expected that. I run it in a VM and on the server and there this is obviously not that much of a challenge. Thanks for that input.
    - lykr0n 8y ago
      CentOS is an option, but the hardware will perform better under Fedora due to a newer kernel build to support newer hardware. Feature wise, the only difference you really need to know is that Fedora ditched Yum and switched to DNF. Same command structure, and you can still install yum. fun fact. Fedora is what RedHat uses to test and flesh out all the fancy features coming in CentOS 8 & RHEL 8. I think Fedora 25 or 26 is what those OSs are being build from.
      - cygned 8y ago
        > switched to DNF Oh I didn’t know that. Will look into that!
  - whytaka 8y ago
    Time and time again, I cannot believe people recommend a company that installed spyware in their hardware. I will never ever buy a Lenovo. It doesn't matter that it didn't affect the ThinkPad line.
- Log1x 8y ago
  No love for Hackintosh? I run all of my machines with High Sierra and they are rock solid.
  - tqkxzugoaupvwqr 8y ago
    How much time did/do you spend reading and fiddling? If I knew setting up a machine (incl. picking hardware parts) is no hassle, I would build myself a desktop. For now I’m holding out for a new Mac mini.
    - cutety 8y ago
      Not the OP, but I had a hackintosh awhile back, and it (obviously) wasn’t as easy as a Ubuntu install, but it wasn’t a complete pain in the ass either. After it was installed, most everything worked as good as it does on my macbook. The only annoying thing I encountered were OS updates, because installing them normally would more than likely break the install. The OSX86 Project[1] is pretty much all you’ll need for instructions for getting a hackintosh setup running. And if you’re interested in building one from scratch, the OSX86 Project lists compatible hardware so you can know what you’re buying will work. If you don’t mind having to do a bit of reading and tinkering to get it working, it’s a solid way to be able to use OS X on non-Apple hardware. But, if you’d rather have something you can just install and forget, you’re better off just installing your favorite Linux distro, or buying a Mac. [1] http://wiki.osx86project.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page http://wiki.osx86project.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
    - bitL 8y ago
      My Hackintoshes take usually 3 days to set up 100% working; mostly issues with setting up Intel HD/NVidia and HDMI/DP audio properly. Obviously I do some research before buying hardware about the success of other people; some machines like most Intel NUCs or ASUS ZenBooks work flawlessly, sometimes even better than with Linux (which is my primary OS). On all Hackintoshes I have Linux, W7, W10 and macOS. Sometimes I have to buy Broadcom WiFi/BT PCIe module and replace Intel one. Frankly, getting W7 running on newer hardware (hello Threadripper!) is sometimes more difficult than installing macOS...
  - 8y ago
- otp124 8y ago
  Have you considered System76? I've been interested in their laptops for a while
  - eropple 8y ago
    System76's laptops tend to be heavy and hot for their size. If I had a choice between one and a ThinkPad, it's not really a hard call.
- some_account 8y ago
  Highly recommend Matebook X Pro with Manjaro Linux, pure awesomeness.
  - cygned 8y ago
    The Matebook X Pro indeed looks good.
  - Redoubts 8y ago
    > Matebook X Pro Wow, they’re not even trying with the naming.
- satysin 8y ago
  No issues with my 2018 15" MBP. Runs perfect, solid battery life, cool and quiet. No kernel panics or any other crashes in 3 weeks of owning it. Edit: Should mention I have only restarted it two or three times in those 3 weeks so it has had plenty of time to crash
  - cygned 8y ago
    Did you experience the sound issues?
    - satysin 8y ago
      Nope but I have read about some people who have a horrible crackling sound. I do have one weird issue which seems related to installing the Mojave beta which is the machine will randomly wake up from sleep and play the power connected chime then go back to sleep. Very strange and only started happening when I installed the Mojave beta so I am assuming it is some kind of firmware bug as it is a beta after all. Other than that this machine is perfect. Keyboard is great and much quieter than the previous butterfly models. Screen is gorgeous and with the addition of True Tone it is even more lovely. I didn't realise just how blue my XPS 15 screen is compared to the MBP. Plus it is almost always silent and stays cool even with a moderate workload. Obviously if I do anything serious it gets warm and the fans kick in but for regular work in IntelliJ and Xcode it is cool and quiet. I am getting around 10h battery life as well for normal work, about 12 for web/Netflix.
  - natvert 8y ago
    As much as I dislike the inability to repair or upgrade the new mbp 15", I have to agree. Mine works great.
    - satysin 8y ago
      Yeah it is horrible how you can't repair or replace anything but it does work so damn well and I have had so much hassle with other laptops that I just thought fuck it and went with the MBP. I had a Surface Book 2 which was one of the worst laptop experiences I have had in the past decade and it was close to the MBP in price. Microsoft waaaay over-engineered the Surface Book just to be unique yet still don't have the software experience good enough to be totally reliable. I have never had my MBP fail to wake from sleep like my Surface Book for example. Or the daily need to detach/reattach from the base so that the backlight for the keys works properly, etc. So many weird quirks with that thing.
- NeedMoreTea 8y ago
  I'm looking at the new Thinkpad P1 and it's everything I hoped the last Macbook Pro update would be. Way things are going I'll be very surprised if my next machine is a Macbook when my 2015 needs replacing.
  - bonestamp2 8y ago
    Imagine that, it even has all the ports one would expect on a professional's computer. It's going to be hard to give up macOS but Apple is too obsessed with aesthetics. Design can only ever be as good as function and if you sacrifice function for design then it's a failed design.
  - coin 8y ago
    Except for the off-center trackpad. Why is it so hard to find a PC laptop with a centered trackpad?
    - symfoniq 8y ago
      The ThinkPad P1 trackpad is centered.
      - coin 8y ago
        It looks slightly off center to the left https://www.lenovo.com/medias/Thinkpad-p1-hero.png?context=bWFzdGVyfHJvb3R8MzExNTUzfGltYWdlL3BuZ3xoNTUvaDE3Lzk4MDMwMTI0MDczMjYucG5nfDNjNTc3MDBlZTRkZGJmMmQyZjRiYTFhNDMxNmE0Y2ZmNzEzM2EwN2M4ODQwNWVmNjhiNDY3MDJmNjkxZDVlMzk https://www.lenovo.com/medias/Thinkpad-p1-hero.png?context=b...
        bubblethink 8y ago
        That's a nitpick. When people say off center, they mean numpad. And I can't tell from the render if it is even slightly off center. It's a render for one.
      - coin 8y ago
        It's off centered relative to the screen
- jchw 8y ago
  Thinkpad P1 is looking pretty good.
- DC-3 8y ago
  I'm running a new (9370) XPS 13 with Arch and it's flawless.
- Kagerjay 8y ago
  Buy a 2015 macbook pro, its the last one without any issues, superior keyboard, legacy ports as well. Smaller more compact touchpad as well The only downside is it is only thunderbolt 2, and they recently went away with external GPU support for new macOS updates. I paid $1500 for mine in practically brand new mint condition on amazon, buying a new a 2018 version was $2500 roughly for something that also had 512 GB SSD. I find the macbookpro has way better ergonomic features than windows laptops. Also, programming environment is just so much nicer IMO on mac.
  - 4di 8y ago
    Yeah my laptop of choice is 15" MB Pro mid-2015. Picked up 2 of them over the last couple of years from Apple's refurbished store and I think with OS X it really is still one of the best laptops out there. A little tip - you can use https://refurb-tracker.com/ https://refurb-tracker.com/ to get alerts when they get in stock. TBH it's the MB Pro + OS X combo that works so well. MB Pro + Windows is definitely sub-par... lot of other great laptops for that. I've never tried Linux on a MB Pro.
    - cpeterso 8y ago
      Thanks for the tip! I reluctantly bought a 2018 MBP but returned it within a week. I thought I would have to stick with my workhorse 2012 MBP, but now I'll check out refurbished 2015s.
    - ehead 8y ago
      Ubuntu runs great on my 2013 15" Macbook Pro. It does mess with the boot manager, and can become unstable if you install it simultaneously with boot camp. The only issue is that the trackpad drivers aren't so good. Stick to OS X if you're a trackpad gesture power user.
  - pokemongoaway 8y ago
    Yes buying an old model is one type of solution, but I think we should be harder on Apple as the experts we are... One must wonder how many Apple employees are making these comments on tech websites too. One should not have to buy an old, used, out-of-warranty product just to avoid idiocy. Apple obviously has not been listening to customers.
- BuckRogers 8y ago
  I've spent a lot of time reading reviews over Lenovo, HP and Dell. Honestly, I wouldn't touch any of them. You can get good stuff from them, but they want the same money as you'd pay to Apple, and I don't believe overall any of those have the build quality Apple offers. And, these sorts of flaky issues affect them equally or more. I know that's not popular to say, but it's the truth. Apple or Samsung is what I've come to. Of the Macbooks, I prefer the MPB13 non-touchbar, it not only misses the touchbar but also has no dGPU for increased reliability. It's just the simple sort of design that I tend to go for and it's solid. But if you don't like that, then take a look at the Samsung 9 Pro. They're available at Best Buy and have the traditional "good price per specs" PC argument going for them (I'll take build quality over specs anyday but that's just me), but reviews and teardowns all give me a ton of confidence in them. They also have the SPen and 2-in-1 capability which is a pretty nice value add. In my experience, Dell/HP/Lenovo never did figure out how to build a good laptop in 30 years, and given the latest Dell XPS reviews, they aren't going to start now. Lenovo's decline is more recent, after the IBM divestiture of course. I'm sure no one is going to like this, everyone thinks something like a Lenovo X220 with Ubuntu is the only way to go, but I actually prefer Windows 10 to both macOS and desktop Linux (though I have a place in my heart for Linux Mint for sure and I quite liked Antergos for a rolling distro when I used it). With the Samsung 9 Pro, it's almost guaranteed to lose the SPen features if you insist on avoiding Windows not to mention harming the battery life.
  - prolikewh0a 8y ago
    >You can get good stuff from them, but they want the same money as you'd pay to Apple, and I don't believe overall any of those have the build quality Apple offers. And, these sorts of flaky issues affect them equally or more. I know that's not popular to say, but it's the truth. https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup
- bitwize 8y ago
  Bit surprised I'm saying this, but consider a System76 machine. Their laptops are still badge-engineered Clevos, but reports indicate the build and component quality of recent Clevo laptops has gone up.
- dmix 8y ago
  Why use such an old Linux kernel with CentOS? Arch and Debian are very stable operating systems for Desktop use.
floatingatoll 8y ago
Did Apple refuse to hardware swap after the owner of the device performed a fresh install of macOS to see if the issues went away and they didn’t? Hardware defects occur. Get it replaced. If Apple refuses, then make a stink.
- charlesism 8y ago
  He can tweet about errors, and also speak with an Apple rep. There's no practical nor ethical reason for him to stay silent. He didn't sign an NDA when he bought his computer.
  - jmull 8y ago
    Well, he certainly has a right to complain. But there are good reasons, both ethically and practically, not to let your frustrations get the better of you and rant publicly without first making reasonable efforts to get the problem corrected in the normal way.
    - perl4ever 8y ago
      Counterpoint: complaining publicly gets you attention from a big corporation, and as long as you don't seriously threaten the company, employees don't derive any animus from it. My default belief is that any large corporation is populated by fairly normal people on average without a deep loyalty to their employer.
      - jphalimi 8y ago
        While I understand your point, I think this guy really needs a chill pill. Give Apple some slack to fix a bug. There was, there is and there will always be bugs in software. Just report it. If one does not fix the problem on time, then it's fine to get angry. But overreacting like that won't help anything.
    - inferiorhuman 8y ago
      Counterpoint: keeping track of hardware failure rates is useful for predicting longevity and short-term reliability.
sehugg 8y ago
I still have my 2012 MBP with the nearly-dead battery, but for daily work I'm just using a $200 Samsung Chromebook 3 with Termux. Yes, I can't run everything, and it's quite slow, but as a result I end up spotting performance problems I wouldn't otherwise.
- hajile 8y ago
  Bought a pixelbook to replace my 2015 macbook. It's been a great experience. Crostini is great (as is having Android apps). You can now find the low-end model for $750 everywhere these days. A little slower, but I have fast desktop machines for when I run into those kinds of tasks.
  - pier25 8y ago
    I'm waiting a couple more months to see what happens with Apple, but I'm almost certain my next laptop will be a high end Chromebook. With crostini I would have all I need.
imwally 8y ago
Hmm, woke up to the same issue today. My 2018's lid was closed but the fans were spinning near full speed. I have a firmware password set so when it reboots it sits at the password prompt (why can't this timeout and shutdown after a certain period of inactivity?). The crash report indicated Bridge OS as well. This is also the second time it happened.
imwally 8y ago
Does anyone know if you can view past crash reports? I sent the same crash report to Apple this morning but neglected to save it. Would be interesting to compare similar reports.
- pacifika 8y ago
  Console log has them listed
  - imwally 8y ago
    Thanks! For anyone else interested, this specific crash report for Bridge OS is listed under System Reports > ProxiedDevice-Bridge.
- saagarjha 8y ago
  /Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports
pertymcpert 8y ago
Why is the T2 panic any worse than a normal panic? It's a bug, they happen. And before someone says that they're only needed for the Touch Bar, a) they chose to buy the Touch Bar version, and b) T2 and future chips will handle much more.
- MBCook 8y ago
  The T2 DOES handle much more. Last year’s T1 only handled the touchbar and fingerprint sensor. The T2 is also the storage controller, disk encryption, and I think runs all the system management/thermal stuff. Why is this any different from any other kernel panic? It probably isn’t. But the design is more complicated than it was last year and lots of people already dislike the existence of the Touch Bar and everything connected to it, so I can see them latching onto this is proof that that was a mistake.
  - pertymcpert 8y ago
    Yes you're right.
- jhdsrt 8y ago
  > Why is the T2 panic any worse than a normal panic? It's a bug, they happen. They do happen. They shouldn't. No matter what subsystem causes the kernel panic I don't see why you would think they are acceptable. However, a problem with T2 is worse than other subsystems because... > And before someone says that they're only needed for the Touch Bar, a) they chose to buy the Touch Bar version, and b) T2 and future chips will handle much more. Exactly. T2 is supposed to work as a secure enclave, for instance (see https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208862 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208862). Any bug (especially one causing a kernel crash) related to the T2 chip is potentially a privilege escalation bug, with the potential to enable direct (after decryption) disk access outside of os access control, or the possibility to work around secure boot and boot non-signed kernels, or other problems. The T2 chip is becoming a critical part of the security infrastructure for macs/mac os and any bug related to it should be taken very seriously.
  - 8y ago
acangiano 8y ago
This appears to be related to the issues I experienced with my MacBook Pro 2018. Namely, speakers crackling as I show in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3yOaLgF6yQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3yOaLgF6yQ. Kernel panics would happen shortly after. I'm convinced T2 is to blame. Upgrading to Mojave appears to have fixed the problem for me, but it's too early to call as I only upgraded a few days ago.
protomyth 8y ago
Some of those replies scare me. Your tweet says "MacBook Pros". Plural. I assume that means you have successfully replicated this error on other machines. Right? And I assume you did a full macOS reinstall to see if the problem went away before trumpeting to the entire world. Right? Wow, just wow. I mean, when you convince some part of your customer base that a "a full macOS reinstall" is required before you claim its an issue, well I guess you have some loyal but misguided fans.
- natch 8y ago
  I sort of agree that that's somewhat unreasonable to expect... but on the other hand, a full macOS reinstall is pretty easy. You can opt to preserve data and settings while doing it, too. Or do a clean install and restore from backup which is unbelievably easy as well if your time machine backups are in good shape.
  - protomyth 8y ago
    Try walking a non-technical user through it over the phone. It is not fun and $DIETY help you if they have a problematic internet connection.
    - natch 8y ago
      Well the guy was an accomplished developer so... no need to move the goalposts.
      - protomyth 8y ago
        I’m pretty sure the advice from the tweet would be the same regardless.
scoom 8y ago
I had no idea Apple still made computers.
natch 8y ago
The comments the user typed into the Problem Report screen are not constructive. I think that comments field would be better used for entering any possibly relevant information the user might be able to provide. For example: what was the computer, or the user, doing before the point of the panic. I'm not saying the user has a strict duty to enter information... just that it's a good idea to add some valuable information if you can. The information doesn't need to be perfect or complete. Apple aggregates information from different users' reports and every bit (well most of it) helps. Apple is engaged in a huge ongoing long project to make their stuff better and better for their users. It's not ever going to be easy, given the ever increasing complexity in the world. We can help, or we can cheer them on, or we can hate on them or whine when they fail. I vote for helping when we can.
- spiralganglion 8y ago
  This was a constructive comment that didn't deserve to be downvoted. I'm not totally fond of the current state of Apple's products, but I do agree that I'm seeing signs that they're gradually backing away from the abyss of awfulness. They've got a ways to go, and I'm sure they'll lose people along the way, but I'm hopeful that the next big laptop design they launch will show some lessons learned. I've been following Apple since the early 90s, and, well.. they've recovered from worse problems than this so many times I've lost count — and yes, even before Jobs came back, and even after he died. Things will get better, new things will get worse. It's a shame that people feel like venting by pounding on that downvote button, alas.
- d35007 8y ago
  Came here looking for this reply. I can understand acting that way after a long string of unproductive interactions with Apple support (note, I'm not saying I would excuse it), but typing that into a dialog box and then being proud enough of what you've written to tweet it out to the world? It doesn't leave me with a positive impression of this guy.
  - dmix 8y ago
    In the same Twitter thread the author attacks someone for using an 'accusatory tone' when questioning his claim. Meanwhile he's sending Apple the snarkiest of comments along with a bug report.
huebnerob 8y ago
It's long past time for the tech world to start realizing that their anecdotal evidence is not valid. Every single tiny glitch some person with a Twitter experiences doesn't warrant a fucking XYZgate level media blitz. @Apple @timcook my phone's battery discharged a little fast today. WHY ARE YOU HIDING FROM THE TRUTH ON THIS??? #draingate In a later reply, guy cited a Apple discussion thread as his empirical proof. Do you know what, yes, even a thirty page, forum thread is compared to Apple's daily sales? A rounding error.
- kalleboo 8y ago
  It goes both ways. The media will blow up any tiny issue, and Apple and Mac fanboys will dismiss even major issues.
- MikusR 8y ago
  With apple hardware that "every single tiny glitch" usually turns out to be a major software/hardware fault. That leads to extended free replacements or redesigns.
saudioger 8y ago
IMO the 2015 Macbook Pro is one of the best laptops ever made. Don't know why they went and messed that up. I solidly regret the 2017 version. I've had one keyboard replacement already (that required the logic board to be replaced, seriously). Since then, I've already lost two keycaps. I've been ordering replacements online because they wanted me to ship it out for repair. My 2015 Macbook is being used daily by a friend and is still in perfect shape. Worst thing that happened with that one is that I wore the letters off some of the keys. My next laptop will probably not be a mac.
- radley 8y ago
  I'm running a mid 2012 i7 MBP (bought at release) w/ 16GB & a 2TB SSD (recently upgraded from a 1TB SSD). I also have a keyboard overlay as a precaution, since I've had to replace keyboards on previous Macs due to spills or sloppy cleaning. My 2012 is decent, but 2013 - 1015 MBPs are the best.
  - SalimoS 8y ago
    Me too have to 2012 no retina MBP, I upgraded the HDD to an SSD 500Gb and the RAM from 4GB to 10BG Im more than satisfied but still stressed when I think about the upgrade
  - bluecat22 8y ago
    I think the issue will be that either your Mac will be unsupported for OSX Mojave or at most in an year or so while your machine physically will still be in good working condition.
    - jsjohnst 8y ago
      > I think the issue will be that either your Mac will be unsupported What precedent do you have for believing that to be true? The only time Apple has done that in the past is major platform changes (aka PowerPC and later 32bit CoreDuos). Unless Apple shifts to ARM (which is easily a couple years out at best) or Intel comes out with a 128bit processor (which isn’t even remotely on the roadmap), I’d say you are safe for at least another five years, even if those shifts do happen.
firmwear 8y ago
I had a to dig around a bit to figure out what "Bridge OS" is. https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/apple-t2-chip-may-be-causing-imac-pro-macbook-problems/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/apple-t2-chip-may-be... Apparently, it's a firmware subsystem and interface for the T2 chipset?
gumby 8y ago
Since the plural of anecdote is "data" all I can say is that my 15" hasn't crashed at all in the 10 days I've had it.
blinkingled 8y ago
Problem is not that T2 chips are causing kernel panic - that stuff happens. Problem is that nobody wanted the touch bar and thus the T2 chip there in the first place - another chip with its own OS running and handling the touch bar crap nobody cares about and many are annoyed by. Apple has gotten into NIH+Something fancy just to jack up the hype and prices too deep. I might be mistaken - but tell me if I am - how is my X1 Carbon 6th gen meaningfully less secure/functional than the MBP? IOW, what am I getting in return for missing ESC, added complexity of the touch bar and significantly higher price? AFAICT nothing if I am not bound to the OS.
- boulos 8y ago
  While I’m also not interested in the touch bar, the T2 also handles other security functions like disk encryption and certifying your boot. So you’d still have the T2 even without the bar.
  - armadsen 8y ago
    Yep. As evidenced by the iMac Pro also having a T2 despite not having a touch bar. (It also has the kernel panics that are a feature of the T2.)
  - blinkingled 8y ago
    Ok, understood. But my point is that PC side disk encryption and secure boot are handled in a standard fashion (TPM 2.0/ UEFI Secure Boot / Intel TXT) without needing another ARM chip and it's own proprietary OS. It's the whole solution looking for problem thing. If I run Windows or Linux on the Mac I think I won't be able to use the T2 chip for anything.
- wodenokoto 8y ago
  > Problem is that nobody wanted the touch bar and thus the T2 chip there in the first place I think you are discounting the millions of people who never wanted the F-keys in the first place.
  - 8y ago
iamleppert 8y ago
Does anyone have a good alternative to Mac? My next laptop definitely will not be a mac, mostly I’m mad about the whole external GPU thunderbolt stuff. And no longer willing to pay Apple’s Mac tax anymore.
- secabeen 8y ago
  If money is no object, the soon to ship Thinkpad P1 looks pretty great.
roadbeats 8y ago
Not just hardware, I regret every little software update I get from Apple. For example, I can't change the password of my Macbook anymore. A simple password change fucks up the whole system, and Google is full of people reporting this stuff for years.
- ReverseCold 8y ago
  Eh, at least that has a kinda good reason. Stuff in keychain is encrypted by your password, so changing it means your encryption password is different from your login password. Why that doesn't change with your login is beyond me.
  - roadbeats 8y ago
    I got that, but there is no interaction about it with the user. If you change your password from apple to banana, you will not be able to login anymore. Both passwords won't work until you open up recovery mode and set your password back to the old one. This is what happened in my case.
ncrmro 8y ago
I’ve watched my 2017 thermal throttle before it became a thing. I type on mechanical keyboard and plug the laptop into thunderbolt 3 dock to 32” 4” monitor. I’m ok with the limitations it is a thin client survived and work fine still after a motercycle accident with some dings I worked in the middle of the desert on the Pakistan borders and on trains across India. I have kvm baremetal hypervisor and a nas so I rdp into win 10 vm for ops and research and have a remote docked vm that can build stuff way faster than laptop. VPN access so tbh you have to change your workflow, people still think you should have a super high powered machine on you always when in realty my laptop is always set up without switching between desktop envs and I for the most part offload chrome and other heavy tasks to the win 10 vm
- ncrmro 8y ago
  Who downvotes these comments how about you make an actually response. Gave you personal anecdotes on why you might want ultra light 13” laptop with thin keys and just a downvote. Starting to realise the people who actually know what there talking about don't comment to much because it's not really worth our time.
peterkelly 8y ago
I received one of 2018 machines a couple of weeks ago. It worked for a few hours until I tried to install the system update that fixes the CPU throttling issue, which I assume included a firmware update for the T2 chip. The update failed, and the machine was bricked. Apple have removed everything that isn't controlled by T2 chip. There is no power light on the machine or the charging cable. CPU temperature is the only indicator of power on/off status, as I discovered after removing a very hot machine that I thought was off from my backpack after arriving home. Despite being non-functional, it was actually powered on but spinning the CPU and/or T2 doing god knows what. My replacement unit arrives tomorrow. Wish me luck.
kitsunesoba 8y ago
Some anecdata: I’ve been using an iMac Pro which has the T2 chip (and thus, can experience these panics) for a while now and haven’t had a single kernel panic. In fact, I wouldn’t have even restarted this whole time if it weren’t for updates. Similarly, I’ve used both second and third gen touchbar MBPs and haven’t had any problems out of them at all. They’ve both been about as reliable as my old 2015 MBP. Not to say that others aren’t experiencing issues, but let’s not forget that the internet can act as a magnifying glass that makes relatively uncommon/infrequent bugs look much more widespread than they actually are.

257 points by miles 8y ago

Holding off buying a new MacBook Pro at the moment. It’s like issues pop up every other week and I simply cannot buy a machine that is not reliable. Also looking into a Lenovo Thinkpad w/ CentOS as an alternative, even though it would be difficult. It’s a pity.

bpicolo 8y ago
Potentially a large part of that is just visibility into issues on account social media and distribution scale. People keep an eye on Apple hardware issues far closer than any other vendor
- cptskippy 8y ago
  And most other vendors sell significantly fewer units across many more SKUs. Thus you would expect with a smaller product portfolio you'd have greater engineering resources to work out the kinks.
- nkkollaw 8y ago
  Yes, specially since class actions are needed just to make them acknowledge the problem (talking about their keyboards now).
- jwalton 8y ago
  I have a 15" 2018 MBP, with 32g of RAM. And, while I don't care for the touchbar or the feels-like-I'm-typing-on-a-hollow-piece-of-wood keyboard, I also haven't had any kernel panics or crackly speakers or any other problems. Which is not to say I won't, but I haven't yet.
dijit 8y ago
Linux these days is incredibly stable. As long as you have a laptop that has reasonably high quality (read: open) drivers. Intel graphics, Wi-Fi and a decent SSD/HDD from a known brand is usually enough to have a trouble free personal compute platform. I have a precision 5520 and haven’t had a single Linux/hardware related issue, before that I had a Thinkpad x201s, and an x201 before that- and further back still I had a T400. It’s been more than a decade since I’ve personally seen a Linux+hardware issue. — That said, the value of a MacBook is the build quality of the device and the application ecosystem. Try getting Skype for business and outlook working on a Linux laptop. :/
- cygned 8y ago
  Luckily, Skype is nothing I need to use. However, I would miss applications, namely Sketch. And I’d need to run Windows in a VM. I am also not sure about the build quality. Despite the keyboard, MacBooks are very well designed and built devices.
  - noir_lord 8y ago
    I have last years T470P (the i7-7700HQ/2560x1440@14" model) and it's phenomenally good with 32GB of RAM and an m2 SSD it screams, enough that I delayed my new development desktop at home from July last year til Ryzen 2 next year.
  - KozmoNau7 8y ago
    So are Thinkpads, Elitebooks, Probooks, Latitudes and Precisions.
  - eropple 8y ago
    They are. But so are a few PC lines. For my money, the ThinkPad T480 hits the sweet spot--the keyboard is reminiscent of the older rMBPs (but a little more throw, it seems), with a good-enough touchpad and enough battery life to last basically as long as I could ever see needing it. (I'm not a fan of the XPS 13 or 15; the keyboard is a little clicky and the touchpad is not good.)
- danShumway 8y ago
  I use Linux exclusively across all of my computers. The biggest problem is touch support - you can get drivers working fine, but the ecosystem is terrible. Open Source applications are an entire generation behind on basic gesture support. The best drawing apps on Linux don't even support pinch-to-zoom. This is a solvable problem that I expect to improve, albeit probably not any time soon, and I'm still incredibly frustrated by it right now. Seriously people, just test your software, even a little bit, on a convertible device. But... if you're not an artist, and you're not using a tablet, and you have someone who can even just help you get set up a little, you kinda, maybe, probably should be at least looking at Linux? Especially if you're using a computer as a professional. It used to not be this way at all, but I think that modern Linux is generally way more stable than Mac or Windows, and is generally easier to work with for professionals. It's starting to reach the point where it may be easier for low-tech users as well, since you can get someone else to set up a computer with exactly the stuff you want, and then only install security updates. It's a major selling point for me to be able to go to someone and say, "Hey, Ubuntu will support an LTS for 5 years. You won't need to change a single thing about your interface, and everything will just keep working."
tbrock 8y ago
Get a ThinkPad X1 Carbon 6th gen with Arch Linux or Fedora. Forget CentOS.
- cygned 8y ago
  Please elaborate. Why using Fedora when I could go with CentOS?
  - tbrock 8y ago
    Newer drivers. They are the same basic OS but it’s not a server so you actually care about the newness of the drivers and other client software.
    - cygned 8y ago
      I expected that. I run it in a VM and on the server and there this is obviously not that much of a challenge. Thanks for that input.
  - lykr0n 8y ago
    CentOS is an option, but the hardware will perform better under Fedora due to a newer kernel build to support newer hardware. Feature wise, the only difference you really need to know is that Fedora ditched Yum and switched to DNF. Same command structure, and you can still install yum. fun fact. Fedora is what RedHat uses to test and flesh out all the fancy features coming in CentOS 8 & RHEL 8. I think Fedora 25 or 26 is what those OSs are being build from.
    - cygned 8y ago
      > switched to DNF Oh I didn’t know that. Will look into that!
- whytaka 8y ago
  Time and time again, I cannot believe people recommend a company that installed spyware in their hardware. I will never ever buy a Lenovo. It doesn't matter that it didn't affect the ThinkPad line.
Log1x 8y ago
No love for Hackintosh? I run all of my machines with High Sierra and they are rock solid.
- tqkxzugoaupvwqr 8y ago
  How much time did/do you spend reading and fiddling? If I knew setting up a machine (incl. picking hardware parts) is no hassle, I would build myself a desktop. For now I’m holding out for a new Mac mini.
  - cutety 8y ago
    Not the OP, but I had a hackintosh awhile back, and it (obviously) wasn’t as easy as a Ubuntu install, but it wasn’t a complete pain in the ass either. After it was installed, most everything worked as good as it does on my macbook. The only annoying thing I encountered were OS updates, because installing them normally would more than likely break the install. The OSX86 Project[1] is pretty much all you’ll need for instructions for getting a hackintosh setup running. And if you’re interested in building one from scratch, the OSX86 Project lists compatible hardware so you can know what you’re buying will work. If you don’t mind having to do a bit of reading and tinkering to get it working, it’s a solid way to be able to use OS X on non-Apple hardware. But, if you’d rather have something you can just install and forget, you’re better off just installing your favorite Linux distro, or buying a Mac. [1] http://wiki.osx86project.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page http://wiki.osx86project.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
  - bitL 8y ago
    My Hackintoshes take usually 3 days to set up 100% working; mostly issues with setting up Intel HD/NVidia and HDMI/DP audio properly. Obviously I do some research before buying hardware about the success of other people; some machines like most Intel NUCs or ASUS ZenBooks work flawlessly, sometimes even better than with Linux (which is my primary OS). On all Hackintoshes I have Linux, W7, W10 and macOS. Sometimes I have to buy Broadcom WiFi/BT PCIe module and replace Intel one. Frankly, getting W7 running on newer hardware (hello Threadripper!) is sometimes more difficult than installing macOS...
- 8y ago
otp124 8y ago
Have you considered System76? I've been interested in their laptops for a while
- eropple 8y ago
  System76's laptops tend to be heavy and hot for their size. If I had a choice between one and a ThinkPad, it's not really a hard call.
some_account 8y ago
Highly recommend Matebook X Pro with Manjaro Linux, pure awesomeness.
- cygned 8y ago
  The Matebook X Pro indeed looks good.
- Redoubts 8y ago
  > Matebook X Pro Wow, they’re not even trying with the naming.
satysin 8y ago
No issues with my 2018 15" MBP. Runs perfect, solid battery life, cool and quiet. No kernel panics or any other crashes in 3 weeks of owning it. Edit: Should mention I have only restarted it two or three times in those 3 weeks so it has had plenty of time to crash
- cygned 8y ago
  Did you experience the sound issues?
  - satysin 8y ago
    Nope but I have read about some people who have a horrible crackling sound. I do have one weird issue which seems related to installing the Mojave beta which is the machine will randomly wake up from sleep and play the power connected chime then go back to sleep. Very strange and only started happening when I installed the Mojave beta so I am assuming it is some kind of firmware bug as it is a beta after all. Other than that this machine is perfect. Keyboard is great and much quieter than the previous butterfly models. Screen is gorgeous and with the addition of True Tone it is even more lovely. I didn't realise just how blue my XPS 15 screen is compared to the MBP. Plus it is almost always silent and stays cool even with a moderate workload. Obviously if I do anything serious it gets warm and the fans kick in but for regular work in IntelliJ and Xcode it is cool and quiet. I am getting around 10h battery life as well for normal work, about 12 for web/Netflix.
- natvert 8y ago
  As much as I dislike the inability to repair or upgrade the new mbp 15", I have to agree. Mine works great.
  - satysin 8y ago
    Yeah it is horrible how you can't repair or replace anything but it does work so damn well and I have had so much hassle with other laptops that I just thought fuck it and went with the MBP. I had a Surface Book 2 which was one of the worst laptop experiences I have had in the past decade and it was close to the MBP in price. Microsoft waaaay over-engineered the Surface Book just to be unique yet still don't have the software experience good enough to be totally reliable. I have never had my MBP fail to wake from sleep like my Surface Book for example. Or the daily need to detach/reattach from the base so that the backlight for the keys works properly, etc. So many weird quirks with that thing.
NeedMoreTea 8y ago
I'm looking at the new Thinkpad P1 and it's everything I hoped the last Macbook Pro update would be. Way things are going I'll be very surprised if my next machine is a Macbook when my 2015 needs replacing.
- bonestamp2 8y ago
  Imagine that, it even has all the ports one would expect on a professional's computer. It's going to be hard to give up macOS but Apple is too obsessed with aesthetics. Design can only ever be as good as function and if you sacrifice function for design then it's a failed design.
- coin 8y ago
  Except for the off-center trackpad. Why is it so hard to find a PC laptop with a centered trackpad?
  - symfoniq 8y ago
    The ThinkPad P1 trackpad is centered.
    - coin 8y ago
      It looks slightly off center to the left https://www.lenovo.com/medias/Thinkpad-p1-hero.png?context=bWFzdGVyfHJvb3R8MzExNTUzfGltYWdlL3BuZ3xoNTUvaDE3Lzk4MDMwMTI0MDczMjYucG5nfDNjNTc3MDBlZTRkZGJmMmQyZjRiYTFhNDMxNmE0Y2ZmNzEzM2EwN2M4ODQwNWVmNjhiNDY3MDJmNjkxZDVlMzk https://www.lenovo.com/medias/Thinkpad-p1-hero.png?context=b...
      - bubblethink 8y ago
        That's a nitpick. When people say off center, they mean numpad. And I can't tell from the render if it is even slightly off center. It's a render for one.
    - coin 8y ago
      It's off centered relative to the screen
jchw 8y ago
Thinkpad P1 is looking pretty good.
DC-3 8y ago
I'm running a new (9370) XPS 13 with Arch and it's flawless.
Kagerjay 8y ago
Buy a 2015 macbook pro, its the last one without any issues, superior keyboard, legacy ports as well. Smaller more compact touchpad as well The only downside is it is only thunderbolt 2, and they recently went away with external GPU support for new macOS updates. I paid $1500 for mine in practically brand new mint condition on amazon, buying a new a 2018 version was $2500 roughly for something that also had 512 GB SSD. I find the macbookpro has way better ergonomic features than windows laptops. Also, programming environment is just so much nicer IMO on mac.
- 4di 8y ago
  Yeah my laptop of choice is 15" MB Pro mid-2015. Picked up 2 of them over the last couple of years from Apple's refurbished store and I think with OS X it really is still one of the best laptops out there. A little tip - you can use https://refurb-tracker.com/ https://refurb-tracker.com/ to get alerts when they get in stock. TBH it's the MB Pro + OS X combo that works so well. MB Pro + Windows is definitely sub-par... lot of other great laptops for that. I've never tried Linux on a MB Pro.
  - cpeterso 8y ago
    Thanks for the tip! I reluctantly bought a 2018 MBP but returned it within a week. I thought I would have to stick with my workhorse 2012 MBP, but now I'll check out refurbished 2015s.
  - ehead 8y ago
    Ubuntu runs great on my 2013 15" Macbook Pro. It does mess with the boot manager, and can become unstable if you install it simultaneously with boot camp. The only issue is that the trackpad drivers aren't so good. Stick to OS X if you're a trackpad gesture power user.
- pokemongoaway 8y ago
  Yes buying an old model is one type of solution, but I think we should be harder on Apple as the experts we are... One must wonder how many Apple employees are making these comments on tech websites too. One should not have to buy an old, used, out-of-warranty product just to avoid idiocy. Apple obviously has not been listening to customers.
BuckRogers 8y ago
I've spent a lot of time reading reviews over Lenovo, HP and Dell. Honestly, I wouldn't touch any of them. You can get good stuff from them, but they want the same money as you'd pay to Apple, and I don't believe overall any of those have the build quality Apple offers. And, these sorts of flaky issues affect them equally or more. I know that's not popular to say, but it's the truth. Apple or Samsung is what I've come to. Of the Macbooks, I prefer the MPB13 non-touchbar, it not only misses the touchbar but also has no dGPU for increased reliability. It's just the simple sort of design that I tend to go for and it's solid. But if you don't like that, then take a look at the Samsung 9 Pro. They're available at Best Buy and have the traditional "good price per specs" PC argument going for them (I'll take build quality over specs anyday but that's just me), but reviews and teardowns all give me a ton of confidence in them. They also have the SPen and 2-in-1 capability which is a pretty nice value add. In my experience, Dell/HP/Lenovo never did figure out how to build a good laptop in 30 years, and given the latest Dell XPS reviews, they aren't going to start now. Lenovo's decline is more recent, after the IBM divestiture of course. I'm sure no one is going to like this, everyone thinks something like a Lenovo X220 with Ubuntu is the only way to go, but I actually prefer Windows 10 to both macOS and desktop Linux (though I have a place in my heart for Linux Mint for sure and I quite liked Antergos for a rolling distro when I used it). With the Samsung 9 Pro, it's almost guaranteed to lose the SPen features if you insist on avoiding Windows not to mention harming the battery life.
- prolikewh0a 8y ago
  >You can get good stuff from them, but they want the same money as you'd pay to Apple, and I don't believe overall any of those have the build quality Apple offers. And, these sorts of flaky issues affect them equally or more. I know that's not popular to say, but it's the truth. https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup
bitwize 8y ago
Bit surprised I'm saying this, but consider a System76 machine. Their laptops are still badge-engineered Clevos, but reports indicate the build and component quality of recent Clevo laptops has gone up.
dmix 8y ago
Why use such an old Linux kernel with CentOS? Arch and Debian are very stable operating systems for Desktop use.

floatingatoll 8y ago

Did Apple refuse to hardware swap after the owner of the device performed a fresh install of macOS to see if the issues went away and they didn’t? Hardware defects occur. Get it replaced. If Apple refuses, then make a stink.

charlesism 8y ago
He can tweet about errors, and also speak with an Apple rep. There's no practical nor ethical reason for him to stay silent. He didn't sign an NDA when he bought his computer.
- jmull 8y ago
  Well, he certainly has a right to complain. But there are good reasons, both ethically and practically, not to let your frustrations get the better of you and rant publicly without first making reasonable efforts to get the problem corrected in the normal way.
  - perl4ever 8y ago
    Counterpoint: complaining publicly gets you attention from a big corporation, and as long as you don't seriously threaten the company, employees don't derive any animus from it. My default belief is that any large corporation is populated by fairly normal people on average without a deep loyalty to their employer.
    - jphalimi 8y ago
      While I understand your point, I think this guy really needs a chill pill. Give Apple some slack to fix a bug. There was, there is and there will always be bugs in software. Just report it. If one does not fix the problem on time, then it's fine to get angry. But overreacting like that won't help anything.
  - inferiorhuman 8y ago
    Counterpoint: keeping track of hardware failure rates is useful for predicting longevity and short-term reliability.

sehugg 8y ago

I still have my 2012 MBP with the nearly-dead battery, but for daily work I'm just using a $200 Samsung Chromebook 3 with Termux. Yes, I can't run everything, and it's quite slow, but as a result I end up spotting performance problems I wouldn't otherwise.

hajile 8y ago
Bought a pixelbook to replace my 2015 macbook. It's been a great experience. Crostini is great (as is having Android apps). You can now find the low-end model for $750 everywhere these days. A little slower, but I have fast desktop machines for when I run into those kinds of tasks.
- pier25 8y ago
  I'm waiting a couple more months to see what happens with Apple, but I'm almost certain my next laptop will be a high end Chromebook. With crostini I would have all I need.

imwally 8y ago

Hmm, woke up to the same issue today. My 2018's lid was closed but the fans were spinning near full speed. I have a firmware password set so when it reboots it sits at the password prompt (why can't this timeout and shutdown after a certain period of inactivity?). The crash report indicated Bridge OS as well. This is also the second time it happened.

imwally 8y ago

Does anyone know if you can view past crash reports? I sent the same crash report to Apple this morning but neglected to save it. Would be interesting to compare similar reports.

pacifika 8y ago
Console log has them listed
- imwally 8y ago
  Thanks! For anyone else interested, this specific crash report for Bridge OS is listed under System Reports > ProxiedDevice-Bridge.
saagarjha 8y ago
/Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports

pertymcpert 8y ago

Why is the T2 panic any worse than a normal panic? It's a bug, they happen. And before someone says that they're only needed for the Touch Bar, a) they chose to buy the Touch Bar version, and b) T2 and future chips will handle much more.

MBCook 8y ago
The T2 DOES handle much more. Last year’s T1 only handled the touchbar and fingerprint sensor. The T2 is also the storage controller, disk encryption, and I think runs all the system management/thermal stuff. Why is this any different from any other kernel panic? It probably isn’t. But the design is more complicated than it was last year and lots of people already dislike the existence of the Touch Bar and everything connected to it, so I can see them latching onto this is proof that that was a mistake.
- pertymcpert 8y ago
  Yes you're right.
jhdsrt 8y ago
> Why is the T2 panic any worse than a normal panic? It's a bug, they happen. They do happen. They shouldn't. No matter what subsystem causes the kernel panic I don't see why you would think they are acceptable. However, a problem with T2 is worse than other subsystems because... > And before someone says that they're only needed for the Touch Bar, a) they chose to buy the Touch Bar version, and b) T2 and future chips will handle much more. Exactly. T2 is supposed to work as a secure enclave, for instance (see https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208862 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208862). Any bug (especially one causing a kernel crash) related to the T2 chip is potentially a privilege escalation bug, with the potential to enable direct (after decryption) disk access outside of os access control, or the possibility to work around secure boot and boot non-signed kernels, or other problems. The T2 chip is becoming a critical part of the security infrastructure for macs/mac os and any bug related to it should be taken very seriously.
- 8y ago

acangiano 8y ago

This appears to be related to the issues I experienced with my MacBook Pro 2018. Namely, speakers crackling as I show in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3yOaLgF6yQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3yOaLgF6yQ. Kernel panics would happen shortly after. I'm convinced T2 is to blame. Upgrading to Mojave appears to have fixed the problem for me, but it's too early to call as I only upgraded a few days ago.

protomyth 8y ago

Some of those replies scare me. Your tweet says "MacBook Pros". Plural. I assume that means you have successfully replicated this error on other machines. Right? And I assume you did a full macOS reinstall to see if the problem went away before trumpeting to the entire world. Right? Wow, just wow. I mean, when you convince some part of your customer base that a "a full macOS reinstall" is required before you claim its an issue, well I guess you have some loyal but misguided fans.

natch 8y ago
I sort of agree that that's somewhat unreasonable to expect... but on the other hand, a full macOS reinstall is pretty easy. You can opt to preserve data and settings while doing it, too. Or do a clean install and restore from backup which is unbelievably easy as well if your time machine backups are in good shape.
- protomyth 8y ago
  Try walking a non-technical user through it over the phone. It is not fun and $DIETY help you if they have a problematic internet connection.
  - natch 8y ago
    Well the guy was an accomplished developer so... no need to move the goalposts.
    - protomyth 8y ago
      I’m pretty sure the advice from the tweet would be the same regardless.

scoom 8y ago

I had no idea Apple still made computers.

natch 8y ago

The comments the user typed into the Problem Report screen are not constructive. I think that comments field would be better used for entering any possibly relevant information the user might be able to provide. For example: what was the computer, or the user, doing before the point of the panic. I'm not saying the user has a strict duty to enter information... just that it's a good idea to add some valuable information if you can. The information doesn't need to be perfect or complete. Apple aggregates information from different users' reports and every bit (well most of it) helps. Apple is engaged in a huge ongoing long project to make their stuff better and better for their users. It's not ever going to be easy, given the ever increasing complexity in the world. We can help, or we can cheer them on, or we can hate on them or whine when they fail. I vote for helping when we can.

spiralganglion 8y ago
This was a constructive comment that didn't deserve to be downvoted. I'm not totally fond of the current state of Apple's products, but I do agree that I'm seeing signs that they're gradually backing away from the abyss of awfulness. They've got a ways to go, and I'm sure they'll lose people along the way, but I'm hopeful that the next big laptop design they launch will show some lessons learned. I've been following Apple since the early 90s, and, well.. they've recovered from worse problems than this so many times I've lost count — and yes, even before Jobs came back, and even after he died. Things will get better, new things will get worse. It's a shame that people feel like venting by pounding on that downvote button, alas.
d35007 8y ago
Came here looking for this reply. I can understand acting that way after a long string of unproductive interactions with Apple support (note, I'm not saying I would excuse it), but typing that into a dialog box and then being proud enough of what you've written to tweet it out to the world? It doesn't leave me with a positive impression of this guy.
- dmix 8y ago
  In the same Twitter thread the author attacks someone for using an 'accusatory tone' when questioning his claim. Meanwhile he's sending Apple the snarkiest of comments along with a bug report.

huebnerob 8y ago

It's long past time for the tech world to start realizing that their anecdotal evidence is not valid. Every single tiny glitch some person with a Twitter experiences doesn't warrant a fucking XYZgate level media blitz. @Apple @timcook my phone's battery discharged a little fast today. WHY ARE YOU HIDING FROM THE TRUTH ON THIS??? #draingate In a later reply, guy cited a Apple discussion thread as his empirical proof. Do you know what, yes, even a thirty page, forum thread is compared to Apple's daily sales? A rounding error.

kalleboo 8y ago
It goes both ways. The media will blow up any tiny issue, and Apple and Mac fanboys will dismiss even major issues.
MikusR 8y ago
With apple hardware that "every single tiny glitch" usually turns out to be a major software/hardware fault. That leads to extended free replacements or redesigns.

saudioger 8y ago

IMO the 2015 Macbook Pro is one of the best laptops ever made. Don't know why they went and messed that up. I solidly regret the 2017 version. I've had one keyboard replacement already (that required the logic board to be replaced, seriously). Since then, I've already lost two keycaps. I've been ordering replacements online because they wanted me to ship it out for repair. My 2015 Macbook is being used daily by a friend and is still in perfect shape. Worst thing that happened with that one is that I wore the letters off some of the keys. My next laptop will probably not be a mac.

radley 8y ago
I'm running a mid 2012 i7 MBP (bought at release) w/ 16GB & a 2TB SSD (recently upgraded from a 1TB SSD). I also have a keyboard overlay as a precaution, since I've had to replace keyboards on previous Macs due to spills or sloppy cleaning. My 2012 is decent, but 2013 - 1015 MBPs are the best.
- SalimoS 8y ago
  Me too have to 2012 no retina MBP, I upgraded the HDD to an SSD 500Gb and the RAM from 4GB to 10BG Im more than satisfied but still stressed when I think about the upgrade
- bluecat22 8y ago
  I think the issue will be that either your Mac will be unsupported for OSX Mojave or at most in an year or so while your machine physically will still be in good working condition.
  - jsjohnst 8y ago
    > I think the issue will be that either your Mac will be unsupported What precedent do you have for believing that to be true? The only time Apple has done that in the past is major platform changes (aka PowerPC and later 32bit CoreDuos). Unless Apple shifts to ARM (which is easily a couple years out at best) or Intel comes out with a 128bit processor (which isn’t even remotely on the roadmap), I’d say you are safe for at least another five years, even if those shifts do happen.

firmwear 8y ago

I had a to dig around a bit to figure out what "Bridge OS" is. https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/apple-t2-chip-may-be-causing-imac-pro-macbook-problems/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/apple-t2-chip-may-be... Apparently, it's a firmware subsystem and interface for the T2 chipset?

gumby 8y ago

Since the plural of anecdote is "data" all I can say is that my 15" hasn't crashed at all in the 10 days I've had it.

blinkingled 8y ago

Problem is not that T2 chips are causing kernel panic - that stuff happens. Problem is that nobody wanted the touch bar and thus the T2 chip there in the first place - another chip with its own OS running and handling the touch bar crap nobody cares about and many are annoyed by. Apple has gotten into NIH+Something fancy just to jack up the hype and prices too deep. I might be mistaken - but tell me if I am - how is my X1 Carbon 6th gen meaningfully less secure/functional than the MBP? IOW, what am I getting in return for missing ESC, added complexity of the touch bar and significantly higher price? AFAICT nothing if I am not bound to the OS.

boulos 8y ago
While I’m also not interested in the touch bar, the T2 also handles other security functions like disk encryption and certifying your boot. So you’d still have the T2 even without the bar.
- armadsen 8y ago
  Yep. As evidenced by the iMac Pro also having a T2 despite not having a touch bar. (It also has the kernel panics that are a feature of the T2.)
- blinkingled 8y ago
  Ok, understood. But my point is that PC side disk encryption and secure boot are handled in a standard fashion (TPM 2.0/ UEFI Secure Boot / Intel TXT) without needing another ARM chip and it's own proprietary OS. It's the whole solution looking for problem thing. If I run Windows or Linux on the Mac I think I won't be able to use the T2 chip for anything.
wodenokoto 8y ago
> Problem is that nobody wanted the touch bar and thus the T2 chip there in the first place I think you are discounting the millions of people who never wanted the F-keys in the first place.
- 8y ago

iamleppert 8y ago

Does anyone have a good alternative to Mac? My next laptop definitely will not be a mac, mostly I’m mad about the whole external GPU thunderbolt stuff. And no longer willing to pay Apple’s Mac tax anymore.

secabeen 8y ago
If money is no object, the soon to ship Thinkpad P1 looks pretty great.

roadbeats 8y ago

Not just hardware, I regret every little software update I get from Apple. For example, I can't change the password of my Macbook anymore. A simple password change fucks up the whole system, and Google is full of people reporting this stuff for years.

ReverseCold 8y ago
Eh, at least that has a kinda good reason. Stuff in keychain is encrypted by your password, so changing it means your encryption password is different from your login password. Why that doesn't change with your login is beyond me.
- roadbeats 8y ago
  I got that, but there is no interaction about it with the user. If you change your password from apple to banana, you will not be able to login anymore. Both passwords won't work until you open up recovery mode and set your password back to the old one. This is what happened in my case.

ncrmro 8y ago

I’ve watched my 2017 thermal throttle before it became a thing. I type on mechanical keyboard and plug the laptop into thunderbolt 3 dock to 32” 4” monitor. I’m ok with the limitations it is a thin client survived and work fine still after a motercycle accident with some dings I worked in the middle of the desert on the Pakistan borders and on trains across India. I have kvm baremetal hypervisor and a nas so I rdp into win 10 vm for ops and research and have a remote docked vm that can build stuff way faster than laptop. VPN access so tbh you have to change your workflow, people still think you should have a super high powered machine on you always when in realty my laptop is always set up without switching between desktop envs and I for the most part offload chrome and other heavy tasks to the win 10 vm

ncrmro 8y ago
Who downvotes these comments how about you make an actually response. Gave you personal anecdotes on why you might want ultra light 13” laptop with thin keys and just a downvote. Starting to realise the people who actually know what there talking about don't comment to much because it's not really worth our time.

peterkelly 8y ago

I received one of 2018 machines a couple of weeks ago. It worked for a few hours until I tried to install the system update that fixes the CPU throttling issue, which I assume included a firmware update for the T2 chip. The update failed, and the machine was bricked. Apple have removed everything that isn't controlled by T2 chip. There is no power light on the machine or the charging cable. CPU temperature is the only indicator of power on/off status, as I discovered after removing a very hot machine that I thought was off from my backpack after arriving home. Despite being non-functional, it was actually powered on but spinning the CPU and/or T2 doing god knows what. My replacement unit arrives tomorrow. Wish me luck.

kitsunesoba 8y ago

Some anecdata: I’ve been using an iMac Pro which has the T2 chip (and thus, can experience these panics) for a while now and haven’t had a single kernel panic. In fact, I wouldn’t have even restarted this whole time if it weren’t for updates. Similarly, I’ve used both second and third gen touchbar MBPs and haven’t had any problems out of them at all. They’ve both been about as reliable as my old 2015 MBP. Not to say that others aren’t experiencing issues, but let’s not forget that the internet can act as a magnifying glass that makes relatively uncommon/infrequent bugs look much more widespread than they actually are.