25 ms·

The Mopeds Are Coming

84 points by panarky 8y ago

intrasight 8y ago
That site's broke. Just get message "Looks like you are offline"
kcorbitt 8y ago
I'm extremely excited by this type of electric scooter. If you're interested in the options currently on the market in the USA, Electrek did a recent roundup here: https://electrek.co/2018/06/07/electric-mopeds-use-is-booming-around-the-world-here-are-the-options-available-in-the-usa/ https://electrek.co/2018/06/07/electric-mopeds-use-is-boomin... You can get an imported Cirkit electric moped with a top speed of 35mph and 40 mile range for $1,200. It can't totally replace a car for most Americans, but it can probably replace 80% of car travel for most commuters. You can go right around traffic, maintenance and electricity costs are a penny or two a mile and these things are fun to drive!
- vkou 8y ago
  Most Americans have to drive on a highway to get to work. As long as they aren't highway-legal, they are a non-starter
  - astrodust 8y ago
    As long as Americans insist on living a ridiculous distance from where they work, no solution will ever work.
    - yourapostasy 8y ago
      This is a function of US business management eschewing remote work by and large, and even further, insisting on locating most work opportunities in more prestigious, more expensive areas of metro geographies (which are already more expensive per unit area than suburban, exurban, or rural areas), than choices by employees to live "a ridiculous distance" from those opportunities. Take away the massive subsidies to the FIRE sectors, drop real estate closer to 10% of after-tax income to compensate for the US' inefficient health care system (then as we wring out those inefficiencies, rebalance the allocations back towards 20-25% of after-tax income to housing), and employees will flock towards city centers. I've read all the calls for Americans to give up their ginormous houses and lots, etc. That is tone deaf to the dynamics of the business of residential development markets in the US, again excessively skewed by FIRE sector subsidies, with runaway municipal development fees and processes and bank financing herd trends adding unhelpful vectors. Before John and Jane Doe even pull up to the highway exit leading to the housing development, their limited choices were already baked in for them by other, far more monied and powerful actors. Incentives matter.
    - fokov 8y ago
      I'd move closer to the jobs if they weren't so far away from affordable housing :( I loved it when I lived .7 miles away from work.
      - astrodust 8y ago
        The value equation would tip a lot more if Americans paid a fair price for automobiles. Everything, from oil, to roads, to the cars themselves, are stupidly subsidized.
        StevePerkins 8y ago
        (1) Drastic increases in gas and car taxes would be highly regressive, and disproportionately affect the poor. (2) Housing prices are rising in large part due to foreign investment / money sheltering. I doubt that you could plausibly increase gas and car taxes high enough offset this, and it would be outright dystopian if you did.
        jessaustin 8y ago
        It really seems like we should be able to directly tax the foreign investment in order to improve public transit... I don't have any good ideas on this however.
        jahewson 8y ago
        Of course that would just make both houses and cars unaffordable.
        baq 8y ago
        I think that was the point...
    - analog31 8y ago
      I live close to work. It's 4 miles by bike. But living close to work is great until... 1. You have a 2 income household 2. Throw kids and their schools into the mix 3. One or both members of the household change jobs All of those things happen to most families. Now it becomes a complete toss-up, and you have to be extremely lucky if both or even one of you can work close to home, school, etc. My spouse and I are in that category, so I know it's possible, but I also know we're lucky. Things might change if there was enough of a safety net, that it wasn't vital to cling to full time employment at all costs.
    - snarfybarfy 8y ago
      Well there is a solution in some far away (mystical?) countries, which is called public (omg communist !!1!) transportation. I also live a longish way from work (30 km) but I've got like 12 trains an hour doing this in 20 - 25 mins. [Thats like 2.12e2 furlongs in 1.45e-2 fortnites for you non metrics.]
  - kcorbitt 8y ago
    I'm having trouble finding US-wide data for average commute distance, but Appendix B here https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Srvy_JobsProximity.pdf https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Srvy_Jo... breaks it down by metro area. It seems like most people in most places commute 8 miles or less, which matches my intuition. At those distances a 35mph scooter will generally get you where you're going at least as fast as a car, unless you've got a straight shot on the freeway and there's little to no traffic.
    - gnu8 8y ago
      How does it do in the snow?
      - lylecubed 8y ago
        Not bad, actually. http://ridetowork.org/files/baroninwinter/index.html http://ridetowork.org/files/baroninwinter/index.html
    - logfromblammo 8y ago
      ACS survey (2012-2016) by the census puts mean commute at 26 minutes, industry-specific averages ranging from 21 minutes for military to 33 minutes for miners. [0] https://www.census.gov/search-results.html?q=commute&page=1&stateGeo=none&searchtype=web&cssp=SERP&_charset_=UTF-8 https://www.census.gov/search-results.html?q=commute&page=1&...
    - vkou 8y ago
      It doesn't matter if your commute is as short as 2 miles - when one of those miles is a freeway. In a few urban areas, you can take side streets to avoid the freeway, but in much of the country, this is not an option. For me, for example, avoiding the freeway adds 17 miles to my commute - turning it from a 10 mile one, into a 27 mile one, adding over 100 intersections to it (Compared to the 12 intersections that my regular commute has). I'm going to have to pass on that.
    - epage 8y ago
      For cities like Austin, a lot of businesses are on "frontage roads", like my company. So while its not a question of highway legal, these are roads with 55+ MPH speed limits and I suspect going 35 MPH will disrupt traffic enough to be dangerous.
- fossuser 8y ago
  They're fun, but extremely dangerous and commuting regularly on one increases the odds you'll get hurt. There's some risk with bicycling too, but I think when there's an added motor it's easier to be going to fast and hit gravel without really realizing it.
  - MartinCron 8y ago
    I have commuted via bicycle and Vespa scooter and I feel so much safer on the Vespa. I can keep up with traffic, I have proper mirrors and signals, and I am wearing better safety gear.
    - 21 8y ago
      In UK a moped is 50 times more dangerous per unit of distance than a car. In EU 10 times: https://ethicalhaydonism.wordpress.com/2018/02/04/micromorts-from-transport-updated/ https://ethicalhaydonism.wordpress.com/2018/02/04/micromorts...
      - MartinCron 8y ago
        A lot of the statistics on The danger of mopeds/scooters/motorcycles do not differentiate between a commuter rising to work on a 200cc scooter and a bar-hopper riding home on the freeway on a litre sportbike. In the US, anyway, half of motorcycle fatalities involve drunk riders.
        kbd 8y ago
        > half of motorcycle fatalities involve drunk riders Really? I did not realize this at all! I suppose this should make me feel 50% safer on the road as a non-drunk motorcyclist. One time I was out with friends and I'd ridden my motorcycle. As an experiment, I had one beer and then rode home. Just that one beer that wouldn't have mattered at all in a car was very noticeable when riding my motorcycle, and I vowed no alcohol ever again when riding.
        8y ago
- josefresco 8y ago
  You can go right around traffic Don't do that.
  - fossuser 8y ago
    It's legal to split lane in California.
    - ramses0 8y ago
      Last I heard, it was actually "not illegal" to lane split in California.
      - lylecubed 8y ago
        It was officially legalized in 2016 and went into affect January 2017. https://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/california-lane-splitting-bill-goes-into-effect-january-1 https://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/california-lane-splitting-...
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - virtualritz 8y ago
    Most European cities where scooters (mopeds) make up a seizable portion of traffic (e.g. Paris) would come to a standstill if you "didn't do that". The issue is more that drivers in the US aren't used to sharing the road with these vehicles. In Paris, drivers naturally drive far left and far right on roads that have two lanes per direction to leave a corridor for the scooters in the middle. Then 'going around traffic' is less of an issue for everyone involved.
    - gkilmain 8y ago
      Is 'going around traffic' the same as 'weaving in and out of traffic'? How do you propose we leave the middle corridor open for your scooter when its jammed bumper to bumper? Fuck your scooters
- antisthenes 8y ago
  Looks like most of that list is a non-starter due to extremely low range (yes, 40 mile sounds good in theory, until you realize these are lead-acid batteries that should not be deep discharged, realistically this is a 20-mile range) Those scooters should come with lighter Li-Ion systems and at least a 50 mile charge. The only thing that looks moderately attractive there is the Onyx RCR in terms of range and speed, but what's worrisome is that it doesn't seem to be built for the speeds it's advertised for. I'd be scared to go over 30mph on something that looks like that.
- r00fus 8y ago
  Great for people without kids. Unfortunately due to the untrusting and inadequate public transit network (read: no more meaningful bussing) in the US, I'll be ferrying my kids daily for another decade+, requiring a car that seats > 2.
runaway 8y ago
These aren't mopeds to me. They don't have pedals.
- Camillo 8y ago
  I think these should be called scooters. Unfortunately, English also uses that word for kick scooters, and now the two are hopelessly confused.
  - ghaff 8y ago
    The terminology is a complete muddle in English. Even reading through that article I had to go back and forth a bit to understand what was being discussed in a given paragraph. If you just say scooter these days, there are about four different things you could be referring to.
    - sandworm101 8y ago
      The term is "motor scooter". Just like a motorcycle is a bicycle with an engine, these are scooters with motors. A moped does have to have pedals and there are some companies making them. But the entire thing is an anachronistic shell game. These are all motorcycles, just of lesser power/ability. They only exist because of silly legal classifications that mean little on a modern street. Everyone on the street riding something with two wheels and a motor should get a motorcycle license, a helmet, and be subject to proper emission controls.
      - ghaff 8y ago
        Except this is actually electric. (Which in fact does mean it has a motor although, to add to the confusion, motor is often used to mean engine :-) ) As a result, by analogy with motorcycle, I would assume a motor scooter had a gasoline engine.
        singularity2001 8y ago
        how about "electro scooter"?
bigtunacan 8y ago
Mopeds are so cheap and fuel efficient already that it is difficult for me to buy into electric rentals really taking off in this area. A brand new Wolf 49cc is under $1000 and gets 100mpg.
- BonesJustice 8y ago
  Are you in an area where storage is no problem for most people? Because most people living in NYC likely don’t have a place they could store their own moped. Parking is scarce and expensive, and they’re not as easy to stow indoors as bikes.
  - mzs 8y ago
    Razor style electric scooters you can easily carry are $200-300.
  - mcjiggerlog 8y ago
    Part of the reason scooters are so popular in countries like Spain is that you can park them on any pavement. Technically the pavement has to be wider than 3m, but as long as it's not in the way it's fine. Mine has been parked, along with many others, on the corner of my street for 3 years in a central area of Madrid without issue.
  - bigtunacan 8y ago
    Personal storage for something like a moped isn't a problem for most people in my area, but public parking is a problem and mopeds definitely help with that here. There is some designated motorcycle/moped parking in the area, when that's not available you will see mopeds triple, or even quadruple parked in a normal car space.
- astrodust 8y ago
  How noisy is it? Some of these two-strokes are deafening.
  - bigtunacan 8y ago
johngalt 8y ago
It would be interesting to greenfield design transportation. Cars are very well executed machines, but I've always wondered what alternatives could happen if there wasn't the weight of backwards compatibility.
- lylecubed 8y ago
  This has been attempted in a few places. Curitiba, Brazil comes to mind. If by "greenfield" you mean "eliminate all roads", then I think you'll find yourself adding them back in at some point. I've been involved in a few of those design brainstorming sessions around urban transportation and every time it comes down to emergency services. If you need to get somebody across a city as fast as possible in a situation where seconds can mean the difference between life and death, then you need roads and cars.
  - johngalt 8y ago
    Not eliminate roads. If anything actively acknowledge their utility and work to specialize/classify them for discrete applications. Right now mopeds and 18-wheelers share the same space. Commuters and emergency vehicles. Bus stops overlap bike lanes. Professional commercial drivers share the road with barely trained drivers who passed a test. A greenfield design would be something like this: Make access/collector roads slower. Personal vehicles smaller/lighter more like golf carts and e-bikes. Limited to 25mph. For use on neighborhood access and collector roads. The lower speeds and lighter weights allow these vehicles to shed a lot of complexity/cost. Licensing can remain easy, and insurance costs are reduced. Parking requirements are reduced. Make arterials and highways larger/faster. Service vehicles, freight and public transportation could be less constrained by lane sizes. Your 'bus' is now two lanes wide and can carry the smaller personal vehicles as cargo (like ferry service on land). The bus has fewer stops because it can expect passengers to travel further under their own power, rather than stop every block. Arterials/highways are for 'professional' uses. Freight, Emergency Services, Public transit. Licensing requirements are more strict etc...
- lostphilosopher 8y ago
  Re: backwards compatibility - Kevin Kelly writes in _What Technology Wants_[0] that Romans impacted the space shuttle - Roman roads were the model for most European roads, and were themselves based on the width of two horses walking next to each other, per "lane" (main use case of the time). Europeans brought this notion of roads with them to the US and built similar roads. Early cars had to fit on these roads, and early car roads were built on top of these horse roads. Eventually, when the space shuttle was designed, shipping its parts from factories across the company (on roads) had to be factored in. Therefore there were size/shape constraints on the shuttle that have their origins in Roman horse drawn carts. (I'm recalling from memory, Kelly's explanation was probably better. Not something I've researched beyond finding that anecdote interesting.) 0. https://www.amazon.com/What-Technology-Wants-Kevin-Kelly/dp/0143120174 https://www.amazon.com/What-Technology-Wants-Kevin-Kelly/dp/...
jbob2000 8y ago
Nope, this will never catch on anywhere that experiences winter. You can't ride a two wheel vehicle on icy roads and it takes a ridiculous amount of clothing to keep warm. If I have to buy a car for winter to accommodate my scooter lifestyle, then I might as well just stick with the car.
- mikestew 8y ago
  You can't ride a two wheel vehicle on icy roads and it takes a ridiculous amount of clothing to keep warm. I'd estimate that when I lived in Indiana, I got the motorcycle out at least once a week in winter. Wait for the snowplows, let the cars dry things out, sorted. One of the more motorcycle-crazy towns I know is...wait for it...Minneapolis. So your hard-core nut jobs will ride regardless. But let's talk about real people with real levels of sanity. So their scooter business dips for three months out of the year. No way their business plan could have accounted for that. it takes a ridiculous amount of clothing to keep warm It takes an electric vest that pulls 50W. With a jacket on top, that keeps me warm to the 30s at 70mph. A speed-limited scooter could get by with much less. Being battery-powered, there are limits to what one could attach to these scooters, but even electric hand grips will take a surprising amount of chill off. And electrically-heated seats are not unheard of. But enough apologetics, let's get to the "so what?". Fine, these companies don't go where a flake of snow ever falls. That only leaves us with congested cities such as Houston, San Diego, Seattle, SF...
  - jbob2000 8y ago
    > Wait for the snowplows, let the cars dry things out This could take 2+ days, how will I get to work on those days? > electrically heat everything on the scooter So I basically need a car that isn't a car at this point, ok! I'm not saying scooters aren't a viable business, they definitely are, and there are companies who make money selling scooters here in Canada. But they will never be more than a fun summer toy for the upper-middle class.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- 8y ago
fredley 8y ago
I don't care how it happens, but the day petrol mopeds are completely phased out will be a very happy one for me. Being woken up by a loud scooter deliverying pizza late at night is a continual annoyance. Electric mopeds presumably make little to no sound.
- Analemma_ 8y ago
  You may not get your wish. My personal most-hated source of urban noise is unmuffled motorcycles that can be heard for miles, but it turns out these exist on purpose: ICE bikes with stock mufflers have a reasonable noise level, but bikers take them off they think it makes them safer ("loud pipes save lives"). It might turn out that we have the technology to make personal vehicles whisper quiet, but then people refuse to use it.
  - fredley 8y ago
    When the majority of vehicles are electric, I can see the case being made for all vehicles to have noise-emission limits. Noise pollution is a serious health issue in cities, and could be a new target once emissions pollution is largely taken care of.
    - mikestew 8y ago
      I can see the case being made for all vehicles to have noise-emission limits. Oh, did you think those loud-ass Harleys and wannabes have legal exhaust systems on their bikes? They do not. But the laws are so rarely enforced that we might as well not have them. My old Honda, and I'm pretty sure the current BMW, have a stamp in the metal on the muffler with words to the effect of "meets EPA noise standards of 84db", or summat. I don't know why it's not enforced, either. Seems like easy money on the part of the municipalities.
      - haldean 8y ago
        My understanding (from a friend who was a cop, this was in NYC but it's probably similar elsewhere) is that what happens is: 1. Motorcycle makes a ton of noise because muffler is removed / modified 2. Cop pulls over motorcycle, gives them a citation which requires them to go to a testing center to have the loudness measured 3. Motorcycle owner reinstalls stock muffler 4. Motorcycle owner goes to testing center and passes test with stock system, and thus doesn't get a ticket 5. Motorcycle owner removes stock muffler 6. Goto 1 He said that no one ever pulls motorcycles over for being too loud because they know this is what happens, and all it's going to be is a lot of paperwork with no actual punishment for the rider. Cops would have to carry noise meters for them to be able to give the ticket in-person.
notatoad 8y ago
I think this is the "missing link" in the new transportation ecosystem. Right now, alternative transport exists in a sort of grey zone where if you ride on roads drivers are angry about how you're taking their space, and if you ride on sidewalks people are angry about how you're taking their space. mopeds look enough like a motorbike and are already accepted enough that a high enough concentration of them could go a long way towards taking back the road as a true multi-use space, rather than a car exclusive space that other users sometimes get to encroach onto. mopeds and bicycles and jump scooters can all coexist in the same space happily. mopeds and cars can coexist happily.
- martythemaniak 8y ago
  As a visitor, I would say one under-appreciated aspect of Dutch bikes lanes is that they're not really bike lanes. Practically, 95% or more of the vehicles on there are bicycles, yeah, but the other 5% are all sorts of wonderfully wacky vehicles, some motorized (mostly electric) some not. It seems to work like this: Are you in big, heavy and fast vehicle? Go in Road Type 1 (cars, trucks, motorcycles) Are you vehicle-less, or is your vehicle very slow or non-motorized? Go in Road Type 2 (pedestrians, strollers, wheelchairs, etc) Are something else? Go in Road type 3 (bicycles, mopeds, electric bikes, electric skateboards, non-car people movers etc etc). In North America, rather than building Road Type 3, we fight viciously over how to sort a galaxy of vehicles into Road Types 1 and 2. Even when a 3rd road type is built, they are frequently designated for some exclusive type of vehicle - ie, places where non-pedelec e-bikes or electric skateboards are not allowed in bike lanes.
  - ghaff 8y ago
    Amsterdam's actually banning scooters from bike lanes as I understand it. [1] Which seems reasonable. When I was there recently, there were certainly some vehicles using the bike lanes that didn't seem to belong. [1] https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/a3nng4/amsterdam-is-enacting-a-scooter-ban-cyclists-ebikes https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/a3nng4/amsterdam-...
  - icebraining 8y ago
creaghpatr 8y ago
Are these intuitive to ride? I can ride a bike and a scooter but I’m not sure I want the first time I ride one of these to be in the Midtown Atlanta Traffic Thunderdome. I sold my car but if I still had one I don’t think I’d be very uh, charitable to someone topping out at 25mph on Ponce.
- mikestew 8y ago
  I’m not sure I want the first time I ride one of these to be in the Midtown Atlanta Traffic Thunderdome. The first time you operate anything, it should not be in crazy traffic. Nothing is that intuitive. But I think even the article is clear that it is not a one-size-fits-all solution. If you need to blast down I-75 to get downtown, prooobbbbbably not a good choice.
  - mrec 8y ago
    Yeah, the first time I ever drove solo was at night, in pouring rain, during rush hour, on the Autobahn. (This was Germany, having learned to drive in the UK.) Oddly enough, I never really warmed to driving...
- eloisius 8y ago
  > I sold my car but if I still had one I don’t think I’d be very uh, charitable to someone topping out at 25mph on Ponce. In which case you probably need to practice patience. There are already plenty of cyclists on Ponce and similar streets of Atlanta who top out at 15mph. They have as much right to be there as motorists, and while you might be annoyed that you’re running late because you didn’t plan accordingly for traffic, they are too often stuck and seriously injured or killed because of aggressive drivers.
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  Ponce? I assumed it was a brand and searched for "ponce bike" and "ponce electric scooter" but didn't get anything other than general bikes and scooters.
  - creaghpatr 8y ago
dyeje 8y ago
Would love a scooter, but it's just not practical when there's snow on the ground.
officialchicken 8y ago
After spending a lot of time in various cities in Europe... anything that fixes the sound pollution created by 2-stroke engines in scooters and mopeds is a massive improvement.
germinalphrase 8y ago
I have a mental block between a moped vs a motorcycle. I’d be happy to ride a compact electric motorcycle (like the old Japanese standards), but I associate mopeds too directly with college students - more specifically, college athletes - to take them seriously as a daily ride.
- MartinCron 8y ago
  Just watch the classic film “Roman Holiday” and you will associate scooters with gorgeous people.
angryasian 8y ago
I'm not sure about other states, but in CA you still need a special license, the same as a motorcycle, to ride a moped. I'm sure this would be the biggest blocker.
- kingnothing 8y ago
  In California it's actually based on how powerful the scooter is. Under 150cc doesn't require a motorcycle endorsement. https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/motorcycles/motorcycles https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/motorcycles/motorcy...
  - runin2k1 8y ago
    That page indicates that you do need an M1 for motor driven cycles(less than 150cc), and an M1 or M2 for Mopeds(which is news to me).
  - aeternus 8y ago
    I don't think this is correct. According to that link: A motor-driven cycle has 149cc or less engine size. CVC §405 A motor-driven cycle has to be registered and the driver must have a motorcycle license (M1).
  - lylecubed 8y ago
    https://www.dmv.org/ca-california/other-types.php https://www.dmv.org/ca-california/other-types.php For electric mopeds, it's based on horsepower, not engine size.
- drewrv 8y ago
  I don't know how it applies to electric bikes, but in most states you're ok if the engine is < 50cc.
  - namibj 8y ago
    Can you get nice downsized engines for these? I.e., with a turbo, direct injection and such?
gascan 8y ago
I'm surprised we're only talking about mopeds & scooters- have we skipped right past electric bicycles?
- jessaustin 8y ago
  They want to be skipped... they're all trying to pretend that they're just bicycles. b^)
js2 8y ago
I'm in NC. It's rained almost every day the last three weeks straight and when it's not raining, it's hot and humid. Are these things catching on in places with unpleasant summer/winter weather? edit: I had only skimmed the article when I made the comment above. Now having read it, and as somone who used to live in Atlanta OTP and commuted to work across from Ga Tech, I share the author's skepticism these will catch on there. I similarly can't see them working in Raleigh where I live now except maybe among college students. They'd be great for getting around a college town, on and near campus.
- dogma1138 8y ago
  All of Asia where it rains for much more than 3 weeks straight during the monsoon seasons. That said it’s not clear if it will catch up in any place where these are seen as perks of convenience rather than essential transportation.
  - ghaff 8y ago
    What you see in Asian cities are really light motorcycles though, right? As in, they can keep up with auto traffic. In places like KL the "scooters" (or whatever the right term is) are really something. Can't imagine driving there.
    - freeone3000 8y ago
      City auto traffic in the US is weirdly fast - it's 30 mph instead of 30 kmph. These devices have no trouble at 18mph but America decided it has to be faster because it built things so far away.
      - dogma1138 8y ago
        Most cities in Europe have a speed limit of 50-60km/h only a handful of roads are limited to 30 and 25 km/h and those are often mixed roads or a parking lot :)
      - hocuspocus 8y ago
monkeywork 8y ago
These ebikes that are designed to look like motorcycles are a bane and shouldn't be allowed to be driven without a license and insurance. In the Toronto area we often see these bombing around, riders acting like they are motorcycles but having no training or understanding of safe practices, not wearing proper safety equipment, and several of the privately owned ones have been modified to increase their speed significantly. I have no issue with the tech, I think it could be a great green solution, but the policies and regulations around it need to get caught up before people are seriously injured.
- singularity2001 8y ago
  additionally/alternatively close one road after another for cars and make it exclusively pedestrian/cycling ground.
  - evgen 8y ago
    And keep everything that is not powered exclusively by muscles out of those areas.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >not wearing proper safety equipment, Well, that's their problem. Also take a look at how 3 billion people ride their motorcycles and mopeds (often 3-5 at a time) in e.g. China, India, Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, etc. and the complains against ebikes are absolutely nullified...
  - kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
    Take a look at the chaos in their streets and the associated fatalities.
  - sandworm101 8y ago
    >> Well, that's their problem. I don;t live in Cambodia. When people here get hurt in my neighborhood they block traffic, are taken to hospital and are treated by teams of government-paid professionals. Then if they have severe head injuries that medical treatment may continue for many decades. We insist on helmets, as we insist on things like brakes and seatbelts, because we know that individual injuries quickly become everyone's problem.
madrox 8y ago
> Then I realize how disturbing it is that these attempts at clarity would seem quaint and surprising, and how any sniff of earnestness from a tech company can feel like a sign of deceit. This is the line that stuck out to me in the whole article. Is this really where we are? Has tech sunk that low?
worik 8y ago
A "moped" has pedals. These are not mopeds...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- s0rce 8y ago
  Yes, technically they are scooters, it seems the terms are frequently used incorrectly. Although, since the pedals really don't contribute much useful power on a moped it doesn't really matter.
singularity2001 8y ago
Are there any models which are not ridiculously tiny for tall people?
e40 8y ago
Hey, maybe the users can ride them on the sidewalk, too! I've been having fun dodging the bikes and scooters (from no less than 3 companies!)!! /s Seriously, my 2 mile walk to work has gone from a total joy to me looking over my shoulder to make sure I can change lanes without getting run over by a scooter/bike doing serious speed. And by change lanes I mean step around that dog turd.
- dec0dedab0de 8y ago
  Isnt it illegal in most places to ride vehicles on the sidewalk? Does it cause a lot of fights? I could imagine someone "accidentally" stretching at the right time to clothesline someone riding down the sidewalk. It's making me angry just thinking about it.
  - xyzzyz 8y ago
    > I could imagine someone "accidentally" stretching at the right time to clothesline someone riding down the sidewalk. What you're describing here is aggravated assault, which is a serious crime.
    - privacypoller 8y ago
      chill - I don't think the GP actually suggesting we form vigilante squads to hunt down sidewalk-riding vesparados (see what I did there?)
  - e40 8y ago
    Isnt it illegal in most places to ride vehicles on the sidewalk? Does it cause a lot of fights? Two days ago I said these words to a cyclist on the sidewalk coming toward me: please don't ride on the sidewalk. His reaction was to park his bike and walk toward me flipping the bird and yelling at me to "shut the fuck up"... I've never been in a fight over this, but too often this is the result. And lest you think I yelled those introductory words, I said them in the most pleading way I could muster. It is illegal to ride a bike on the sidewalk where I live. That doesn't stop the dozens of people I see each day. And this fun thing happened last night when I left my building (a very busy street): 2 cyclists coming through the intersection and one cyclist wanted to get around the other, so at the intersection he whipped onto the sidewalk, at about 20 mph, and rode between the people walking there. Had I exited my building seconds earlier I could have been serious injured by stepping into his path.
golemiprague 8y ago
In Tel Aviv I have seen the reverse, from a city with a lot of mopeds it turned into a city with a lot of electric bikes. Not for hire though, everybody have one anyways.
williesleg 8y ago
Holy crap that's a lot of words. Who reads that much on a single web page these days?
andyidsinga 8y ago
I see some regulation related comments in the mix - here's a pretty nice chart summarizing the situation in oregon: https://www.portlandoregon.gov/transportation/article/206901 https://www.portlandoregon.gov/transportation/article/206901 my guess is the muving scooter would fall under "moped rules" due to 30 mph and no pedals.
pessimizer 8y ago
This would be great if it weren't another ploy to hack the legal system through a moped-sized. Rent the same 125cc scooters that they already rent in Italy (a displacement size that can easily keep up with city traffic), require that users be licensed (and help them get licensed), and insure them. Instead, they're just going to look at the laws of each state and figure out the maximum speed and displacement they can offer to people without them having to be licensed or to have ever been on a scooter before, and whether if they duck tape some pedals to it they can get away with more. And what city/state official(s) they have to bribe to get those laws changed or to keep them unchanged after people end up severely brain injured and dead.
jachee 8y ago
I'm (honestly just a little) surprised there's no mention of Scoobi, who just launched in Pittsburgh. [0] Other than an opening weekend issue involving a few friends "terrorizing" them [1] they seem to be successful. I've seen several folks riding on them, many parked (legally, thanks to an agreement with the city), and none the worse for wear. Personally, I'm going to try one, on a weekend, before I brave the jagoffs of rush hour. 0. https://triblive.com/local/allegheny/13898057-74/scoobi-launches-scooter-service-in-pittsburgh https://triblive.com/local/allegheny/13898057-74/scoobi-laun... 1. https://theincline.com/2018/08/03/how-a-group-of-friends-terrorized-scoobi-pittsburghs-new-scooter-ride-share-service/ https://theincline.com/2018/08/03/how-a-group-of-friends-ter...
sonaltr 8y ago
If Mopeds or bicyclists or the like want to be on the road - that's fine. Get a Bike license and Insurance. A few weeks ago, a bicyclist clipped my bumper at a red light. I made sure it was safe, pulled over, put on my hazards, and got out. In that time, he had the audacity to claim that 1. I was at fault (I was not - I've got front & rear dashcam footage provided to the police & insurance as replacing the bumper is easily $2k for me). 2. When I told him about the dashcam, he then claimed we could split it 50/50 (while also claiming it's not more than $300 worth of damage if I took it to a shop that he said he'd "hook me up with" - which it's not. It's a brand new car and I'll take it to a dealership thank you very much.) 3. Claimed he was broke and could not afford to pay me $2k and since I worked downtown, I could "afford to eat the cost and not feel the difference" - like that mattered. 4. When I did call the cops, he decided to just take his bike and ride off.

84 points by panarky 8y ago

That site's broke. Just get message "Looks like you are offline"

I'm extremely excited by this type of electric scooter. If you're interested in the options currently on the market in the USA, Electrek did a recent roundup here: https://electrek.co/2018/06/07/electric-mopeds-use-is-booming-around-the-world-here-are-the-options-available-in-the-usa/ https://electrek.co/2018/06/07/electric-mopeds-use-is-boomin... You can get an imported Cirkit electric moped with a top speed of 35mph and 40 mile range for $1,200. It can't totally replace a car for most Americans, but it can probably replace 80% of car travel for most commuters. You can go right around traffic, maintenance and electricity costs are a penny or two a mile and these things are fun to drive!

vkou 8y ago
Most Americans have to drive on a highway to get to work. As long as they aren't highway-legal, they are a non-starter
- astrodust 8y ago
  As long as Americans insist on living a ridiculous distance from where they work, no solution will ever work.
  - yourapostasy 8y ago
    This is a function of US business management eschewing remote work by and large, and even further, insisting on locating most work opportunities in more prestigious, more expensive areas of metro geographies (which are already more expensive per unit area than suburban, exurban, or rural areas), than choices by employees to live "a ridiculous distance" from those opportunities. Take away the massive subsidies to the FIRE sectors, drop real estate closer to 10% of after-tax income to compensate for the US' inefficient health care system (then as we wring out those inefficiencies, rebalance the allocations back towards 20-25% of after-tax income to housing), and employees will flock towards city centers. I've read all the calls for Americans to give up their ginormous houses and lots, etc. That is tone deaf to the dynamics of the business of residential development markets in the US, again excessively skewed by FIRE sector subsidies, with runaway municipal development fees and processes and bank financing herd trends adding unhelpful vectors. Before John and Jane Doe even pull up to the highway exit leading to the housing development, their limited choices were already baked in for them by other, far more monied and powerful actors. Incentives matter.
  - fokov 8y ago
    I'd move closer to the jobs if they weren't so far away from affordable housing :( I loved it when I lived .7 miles away from work.
    - astrodust 8y ago
      The value equation would tip a lot more if Americans paid a fair price for automobiles. Everything, from oil, to roads, to the cars themselves, are stupidly subsidized.
      - StevePerkins 8y ago
        (1) Drastic increases in gas and car taxes would be highly regressive, and disproportionately affect the poor. (2) Housing prices are rising in large part due to foreign investment / money sheltering. I doubt that you could plausibly increase gas and car taxes high enough offset this, and it would be outright dystopian if you did.
        jessaustin 8y ago
        It really seems like we should be able to directly tax the foreign investment in order to improve public transit... I don't have any good ideas on this however.
      - jahewson 8y ago
        Of course that would just make both houses and cars unaffordable.
        baq 8y ago
        I think that was the point...
  - analog31 8y ago
    I live close to work. It's 4 miles by bike. But living close to work is great until... 1. You have a 2 income household 2. Throw kids and their schools into the mix 3. One or both members of the household change jobs All of those things happen to most families. Now it becomes a complete toss-up, and you have to be extremely lucky if both or even one of you can work close to home, school, etc. My spouse and I are in that category, so I know it's possible, but I also know we're lucky. Things might change if there was enough of a safety net, that it wasn't vital to cling to full time employment at all costs.
  - snarfybarfy 8y ago
    Well there is a solution in some far away (mystical?) countries, which is called public (omg communist !!1!) transportation. I also live a longish way from work (30 km) but I've got like 12 trains an hour doing this in 20 - 25 mins. [Thats like 2.12e2 furlongs in 1.45e-2 fortnites for you non metrics.]
- kcorbitt 8y ago
  I'm having trouble finding US-wide data for average commute distance, but Appendix B here https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Srvy_JobsProximity.pdf https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Srvy_Jo... breaks it down by metro area. It seems like most people in most places commute 8 miles or less, which matches my intuition. At those distances a 35mph scooter will generally get you where you're going at least as fast as a car, unless you've got a straight shot on the freeway and there's little to no traffic.
  - gnu8 8y ago
    How does it do in the snow?
    - lylecubed 8y ago
      Not bad, actually. http://ridetowork.org/files/baroninwinter/index.html http://ridetowork.org/files/baroninwinter/index.html
  - logfromblammo 8y ago
    ACS survey (2012-2016) by the census puts mean commute at 26 minutes, industry-specific averages ranging from 21 minutes for military to 33 minutes for miners. [0] https://www.census.gov/search-results.html?q=commute&page=1&stateGeo=none&searchtype=web&cssp=SERP&_charset_=UTF-8 https://www.census.gov/search-results.html?q=commute&page=1&...
  - vkou 8y ago
    It doesn't matter if your commute is as short as 2 miles - when one of those miles is a freeway. In a few urban areas, you can take side streets to avoid the freeway, but in much of the country, this is not an option. For me, for example, avoiding the freeway adds 17 miles to my commute - turning it from a 10 mile one, into a 27 mile one, adding over 100 intersections to it (Compared to the 12 intersections that my regular commute has). I'm going to have to pass on that.
  - epage 8y ago
    For cities like Austin, a lot of businesses are on "frontage roads", like my company. So while its not a question of highway legal, these are roads with 55+ MPH speed limits and I suspect going 35 MPH will disrupt traffic enough to be dangerous.
fossuser 8y ago
They're fun, but extremely dangerous and commuting regularly on one increases the odds you'll get hurt. There's some risk with bicycling too, but I think when there's an added motor it's easier to be going to fast and hit gravel without really realizing it.
- MartinCron 8y ago
  I have commuted via bicycle and Vespa scooter and I feel so much safer on the Vespa. I can keep up with traffic, I have proper mirrors and signals, and I am wearing better safety gear.
  - 21 8y ago
    In UK a moped is 50 times more dangerous per unit of distance than a car. In EU 10 times: https://ethicalhaydonism.wordpress.com/2018/02/04/micromorts-from-transport-updated/ https://ethicalhaydonism.wordpress.com/2018/02/04/micromorts...
    - MartinCron 8y ago
      A lot of the statistics on The danger of mopeds/scooters/motorcycles do not differentiate between a commuter rising to work on a 200cc scooter and a bar-hopper riding home on the freeway on a litre sportbike. In the US, anyway, half of motorcycle fatalities involve drunk riders.
      - kbd 8y ago
        > half of motorcycle fatalities involve drunk riders Really? I did not realize this at all! I suppose this should make me feel 50% safer on the road as a non-drunk motorcyclist. One time I was out with friends and I'd ridden my motorcycle. As an experiment, I had one beer and then rode home. Just that one beer that wouldn't have mattered at all in a car was very noticeable when riding my motorcycle, and I vowed no alcohol ever again when riding.
        8y ago
josefresco 8y ago
You can go right around traffic Don't do that.
- fossuser 8y ago
  It's legal to split lane in California.
  - ramses0 8y ago
    Last I heard, it was actually "not illegal" to lane split in California.
    - lylecubed 8y ago
      It was officially legalized in 2016 and went into affect January 2017. https://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/california-lane-splitting-bill-goes-into-effect-january-1 https://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/california-lane-splitting-...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- virtualritz 8y ago
  Most European cities where scooters (mopeds) make up a seizable portion of traffic (e.g. Paris) would come to a standstill if you "didn't do that". The issue is more that drivers in the US aren't used to sharing the road with these vehicles. In Paris, drivers naturally drive far left and far right on roads that have two lanes per direction to leave a corridor for the scooters in the middle. Then 'going around traffic' is less of an issue for everyone involved.
  - gkilmain 8y ago
    Is 'going around traffic' the same as 'weaving in and out of traffic'? How do you propose we leave the middle corridor open for your scooter when its jammed bumper to bumper? Fuck your scooters
antisthenes 8y ago
Looks like most of that list is a non-starter due to extremely low range (yes, 40 mile sounds good in theory, until you realize these are lead-acid batteries that should not be deep discharged, realistically this is a 20-mile range) Those scooters should come with lighter Li-Ion systems and at least a 50 mile charge. The only thing that looks moderately attractive there is the Onyx RCR in terms of range and speed, but what's worrisome is that it doesn't seem to be built for the speeds it's advertised for. I'd be scared to go over 30mph on something that looks like that.
r00fus 8y ago
Great for people without kids. Unfortunately due to the untrusting and inadequate public transit network (read: no more meaningful bussing) in the US, I'll be ferrying my kids daily for another decade+, requiring a car that seats > 2.

runaway 8y ago

These aren't mopeds to me. They don't have pedals.

Camillo 8y ago
I think these should be called scooters. Unfortunately, English also uses that word for kick scooters, and now the two are hopelessly confused.
- ghaff 8y ago
  The terminology is a complete muddle in English. Even reading through that article I had to go back and forth a bit to understand what was being discussed in a given paragraph. If you just say scooter these days, there are about four different things you could be referring to.
  - sandworm101 8y ago
    The term is "motor scooter". Just like a motorcycle is a bicycle with an engine, these are scooters with motors. A moped does have to have pedals and there are some companies making them. But the entire thing is an anachronistic shell game. These are all motorcycles, just of lesser power/ability. They only exist because of silly legal classifications that mean little on a modern street. Everyone on the street riding something with two wheels and a motor should get a motorcycle license, a helmet, and be subject to proper emission controls.
    - ghaff 8y ago
      Except this is actually electric. (Which in fact does mean it has a motor although, to add to the confusion, motor is often used to mean engine :-) ) As a result, by analogy with motorcycle, I would assume a motor scooter had a gasoline engine.
      - singularity2001 8y ago
        how about "electro scooter"?

bigtunacan 8y ago

Mopeds are so cheap and fuel efficient already that it is difficult for me to buy into electric rentals really taking off in this area. A brand new Wolf 49cc is under $1000 and gets 100mpg.

BonesJustice 8y ago
Are you in an area where storage is no problem for most people? Because most people living in NYC likely don’t have a place they could store their own moped. Parking is scarce and expensive, and they’re not as easy to stow indoors as bikes.
- mzs 8y ago
  Razor style electric scooters you can easily carry are $200-300.
- mcjiggerlog 8y ago
  Part of the reason scooters are so popular in countries like Spain is that you can park them on any pavement. Technically the pavement has to be wider than 3m, but as long as it's not in the way it's fine. Mine has been parked, along with many others, on the corner of my street for 3 years in a central area of Madrid without issue.
- bigtunacan 8y ago
  Personal storage for something like a moped isn't a problem for most people in my area, but public parking is a problem and mopeds definitely help with that here. There is some designated motorcycle/moped parking in the area, when that's not available you will see mopeds triple, or even quadruple parked in a normal car space.
astrodust 8y ago
How noisy is it? Some of these two-strokes are deafening.
- bigtunacan 8y ago

johngalt 8y ago

It would be interesting to greenfield design transportation. Cars are very well executed machines, but I've always wondered what alternatives could happen if there wasn't the weight of backwards compatibility.

lylecubed 8y ago
This has been attempted in a few places. Curitiba, Brazil comes to mind. If by "greenfield" you mean "eliminate all roads", then I think you'll find yourself adding them back in at some point. I've been involved in a few of those design brainstorming sessions around urban transportation and every time it comes down to emergency services. If you need to get somebody across a city as fast as possible in a situation where seconds can mean the difference between life and death, then you need roads and cars.
- johngalt 8y ago
  Not eliminate roads. If anything actively acknowledge their utility and work to specialize/classify them for discrete applications. Right now mopeds and 18-wheelers share the same space. Commuters and emergency vehicles. Bus stops overlap bike lanes. Professional commercial drivers share the road with barely trained drivers who passed a test. A greenfield design would be something like this: Make access/collector roads slower. Personal vehicles smaller/lighter more like golf carts and e-bikes. Limited to 25mph. For use on neighborhood access and collector roads. The lower speeds and lighter weights allow these vehicles to shed a lot of complexity/cost. Licensing can remain easy, and insurance costs are reduced. Parking requirements are reduced. Make arterials and highways larger/faster. Service vehicles, freight and public transportation could be less constrained by lane sizes. Your 'bus' is now two lanes wide and can carry the smaller personal vehicles as cargo (like ferry service on land). The bus has fewer stops because it can expect passengers to travel further under their own power, rather than stop every block. Arterials/highways are for 'professional' uses. Freight, Emergency Services, Public transit. Licensing requirements are more strict etc...
lostphilosopher 8y ago
Re: backwards compatibility - Kevin Kelly writes in _What Technology Wants_[0] that Romans impacted the space shuttle - Roman roads were the model for most European roads, and were themselves based on the width of two horses walking next to each other, per "lane" (main use case of the time). Europeans brought this notion of roads with them to the US and built similar roads. Early cars had to fit on these roads, and early car roads were built on top of these horse roads. Eventually, when the space shuttle was designed, shipping its parts from factories across the company (on roads) had to be factored in. Therefore there were size/shape constraints on the shuttle that have their origins in Roman horse drawn carts. (I'm recalling from memory, Kelly's explanation was probably better. Not something I've researched beyond finding that anecdote interesting.) 0. https://www.amazon.com/What-Technology-Wants-Kevin-Kelly/dp/0143120174 https://www.amazon.com/What-Technology-Wants-Kevin-Kelly/dp/...

jbob2000 8y ago

Nope, this will never catch on anywhere that experiences winter. You can't ride a two wheel vehicle on icy roads and it takes a ridiculous amount of clothing to keep warm. If I have to buy a car for winter to accommodate my scooter lifestyle, then I might as well just stick with the car.

mikestew 8y ago
You can't ride a two wheel vehicle on icy roads and it takes a ridiculous amount of clothing to keep warm. I'd estimate that when I lived in Indiana, I got the motorcycle out at least once a week in winter. Wait for the snowplows, let the cars dry things out, sorted. One of the more motorcycle-crazy towns I know is...wait for it...Minneapolis. So your hard-core nut jobs will ride regardless. But let's talk about real people with real levels of sanity. So their scooter business dips for three months out of the year. No way their business plan could have accounted for that. it takes a ridiculous amount of clothing to keep warm It takes an electric vest that pulls 50W. With a jacket on top, that keeps me warm to the 30s at 70mph. A speed-limited scooter could get by with much less. Being battery-powered, there are limits to what one could attach to these scooters, but even electric hand grips will take a surprising amount of chill off. And electrically-heated seats are not unheard of. But enough apologetics, let's get to the "so what?". Fine, these companies don't go where a flake of snow ever falls. That only leaves us with congested cities such as Houston, San Diego, Seattle, SF...
- jbob2000 8y ago
  > Wait for the snowplows, let the cars dry things out This could take 2+ days, how will I get to work on those days? > electrically heat everything on the scooter So I basically need a car that isn't a car at this point, ok! I'm not saying scooters aren't a viable business, they definitely are, and there are companies who make money selling scooters here in Canada. But they will never be more than a fun summer toy for the upper-middle class.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
8y ago

fredley 8y ago

I don't care how it happens, but the day petrol mopeds are completely phased out will be a very happy one for me. Being woken up by a loud scooter deliverying pizza late at night is a continual annoyance. Electric mopeds presumably make little to no sound.

Analemma_ 8y ago
You may not get your wish. My personal most-hated source of urban noise is unmuffled motorcycles that can be heard for miles, but it turns out these exist on purpose: ICE bikes with stock mufflers have a reasonable noise level, but bikers take them off they think it makes them safer ("loud pipes save lives"). It might turn out that we have the technology to make personal vehicles whisper quiet, but then people refuse to use it.
- fredley 8y ago
  When the majority of vehicles are electric, I can see the case being made for all vehicles to have noise-emission limits. Noise pollution is a serious health issue in cities, and could be a new target once emissions pollution is largely taken care of.
  - mikestew 8y ago
    I can see the case being made for all vehicles to have noise-emission limits. Oh, did you think those loud-ass Harleys and wannabes have legal exhaust systems on their bikes? They do not. But the laws are so rarely enforced that we might as well not have them. My old Honda, and I'm pretty sure the current BMW, have a stamp in the metal on the muffler with words to the effect of "meets EPA noise standards of 84db", or summat. I don't know why it's not enforced, either. Seems like easy money on the part of the municipalities.
    - haldean 8y ago
      My understanding (from a friend who was a cop, this was in NYC but it's probably similar elsewhere) is that what happens is: 1. Motorcycle makes a ton of noise because muffler is removed / modified 2. Cop pulls over motorcycle, gives them a citation which requires them to go to a testing center to have the loudness measured 3. Motorcycle owner reinstalls stock muffler 4. Motorcycle owner goes to testing center and passes test with stock system, and thus doesn't get a ticket 5. Motorcycle owner removes stock muffler 6. Goto 1 He said that no one ever pulls motorcycles over for being too loud because they know this is what happens, and all it's going to be is a lot of paperwork with no actual punishment for the rider. Cops would have to carry noise meters for them to be able to give the ticket in-person.

notatoad 8y ago

I think this is the "missing link" in the new transportation ecosystem. Right now, alternative transport exists in a sort of grey zone where if you ride on roads drivers are angry about how you're taking their space, and if you ride on sidewalks people are angry about how you're taking their space. mopeds look enough like a motorbike and are already accepted enough that a high enough concentration of them could go a long way towards taking back the road as a true multi-use space, rather than a car exclusive space that other users sometimes get to encroach onto. mopeds and bicycles and jump scooters can all coexist in the same space happily. mopeds and cars can coexist happily.

martythemaniak 8y ago
As a visitor, I would say one under-appreciated aspect of Dutch bikes lanes is that they're not really bike lanes. Practically, 95% or more of the vehicles on there are bicycles, yeah, but the other 5% are all sorts of wonderfully wacky vehicles, some motorized (mostly electric) some not. It seems to work like this: Are you in big, heavy and fast vehicle? Go in Road Type 1 (cars, trucks, motorcycles) Are you vehicle-less, or is your vehicle very slow or non-motorized? Go in Road Type 2 (pedestrians, strollers, wheelchairs, etc) Are something else? Go in Road type 3 (bicycles, mopeds, electric bikes, electric skateboards, non-car people movers etc etc). In North America, rather than building Road Type 3, we fight viciously over how to sort a galaxy of vehicles into Road Types 1 and 2. Even when a 3rd road type is built, they are frequently designated for some exclusive type of vehicle - ie, places where non-pedelec e-bikes or electric skateboards are not allowed in bike lanes.
- ghaff 8y ago
  Amsterdam's actually banning scooters from bike lanes as I understand it. [1] Which seems reasonable. When I was there recently, there were certainly some vehicles using the bike lanes that didn't seem to belong. [1] https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/a3nng4/amsterdam-is-enacting-a-scooter-ban-cyclists-ebikes https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/a3nng4/amsterdam-...
- icebraining 8y ago

creaghpatr 8y ago

Are these intuitive to ride? I can ride a bike and a scooter but I’m not sure I want the first time I ride one of these to be in the Midtown Atlanta Traffic Thunderdome. I sold my car but if I still had one I don’t think I’d be very uh, charitable to someone topping out at 25mph on Ponce.

mikestew 8y ago
I’m not sure I want the first time I ride one of these to be in the Midtown Atlanta Traffic Thunderdome. The first time you operate anything, it should not be in crazy traffic. Nothing is that intuitive. But I think even the article is clear that it is not a one-size-fits-all solution. If you need to blast down I-75 to get downtown, prooobbbbbably not a good choice.
- mrec 8y ago
  Yeah, the first time I ever drove solo was at night, in pouring rain, during rush hour, on the Autobahn. (This was Germany, having learned to drive in the UK.) Oddly enough, I never really warmed to driving...
eloisius 8y ago
> I sold my car but if I still had one I don’t think I’d be very uh, charitable to someone topping out at 25mph on Ponce. In which case you probably need to practice patience. There are already plenty of cyclists on Ponce and similar streets of Atlanta who top out at 15mph. They have as much right to be there as motorists, and while you might be annoyed that you’re running late because you didn’t plan accordingly for traffic, they are too often stuck and seriously injured or killed because of aggressive drivers.
pbhjpbhj 8y ago
Ponce? I assumed it was a brand and searched for "ponce bike" and "ponce electric scooter" but didn't get anything other than general bikes and scooters.
- creaghpatr 8y ago

dyeje 8y ago

Would love a scooter, but it's just not practical when there's snow on the ground.

officialchicken 8y ago

After spending a lot of time in various cities in Europe... anything that fixes the sound pollution created by 2-stroke engines in scooters and mopeds is a massive improvement.

germinalphrase 8y ago

I have a mental block between a moped vs a motorcycle. I’d be happy to ride a compact electric motorcycle (like the old Japanese standards), but I associate mopeds too directly with college students - more specifically, college athletes - to take them seriously as a daily ride.

MartinCron 8y ago
Just watch the classic film “Roman Holiday” and you will associate scooters with gorgeous people.

angryasian 8y ago

I'm not sure about other states, but in CA you still need a special license, the same as a motorcycle, to ride a moped. I'm sure this would be the biggest blocker.

kingnothing 8y ago
In California it's actually based on how powerful the scooter is. Under 150cc doesn't require a motorcycle endorsement. https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/motorcycles/motorcycles https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/motorcycles/motorcy...
- runin2k1 8y ago
  That page indicates that you do need an M1 for motor driven cycles(less than 150cc), and an M1 or M2 for Mopeds(which is news to me).
- aeternus 8y ago
  I don't think this is correct. According to that link: A motor-driven cycle has 149cc or less engine size. CVC §405 A motor-driven cycle has to be registered and the driver must have a motorcycle license (M1).
- lylecubed 8y ago
  https://www.dmv.org/ca-california/other-types.php https://www.dmv.org/ca-california/other-types.php For electric mopeds, it's based on horsepower, not engine size.
drewrv 8y ago
I don't know how it applies to electric bikes, but in most states you're ok if the engine is < 50cc.
- namibj 8y ago
  Can you get nice downsized engines for these? I.e., with a turbo, direct injection and such?

gascan 8y ago

I'm surprised we're only talking about mopeds & scooters- have we skipped right past electric bicycles?

jessaustin 8y ago
They want to be skipped... they're all trying to pretend that they're just bicycles. b^)

js2 8y ago

I'm in NC. It's rained almost every day the last three weeks straight and when it's not raining, it's hot and humid. Are these things catching on in places with unpleasant summer/winter weather? edit: I had only skimmed the article when I made the comment above. Now having read it, and as somone who used to live in Atlanta OTP and commuted to work across from Ga Tech, I share the author's skepticism these will catch on there. I similarly can't see them working in Raleigh where I live now except maybe among college students. They'd be great for getting around a college town, on and near campus.

dogma1138 8y ago
All of Asia where it rains for much more than 3 weeks straight during the monsoon seasons. That said it’s not clear if it will catch up in any place where these are seen as perks of convenience rather than essential transportation.
- ghaff 8y ago
  What you see in Asian cities are really light motorcycles though, right? As in, they can keep up with auto traffic. In places like KL the "scooters" (or whatever the right term is) are really something. Can't imagine driving there.
  - freeone3000 8y ago
    City auto traffic in the US is weirdly fast - it's 30 mph instead of 30 kmph. These devices have no trouble at 18mph but America decided it has to be faster because it built things so far away.
    - dogma1138 8y ago
      Most cities in Europe have a speed limit of 50-60km/h only a handful of roads are limited to 30 and 25 km/h and those are often mixed roads or a parking lot :)
    - hocuspocus 8y ago

monkeywork 8y ago

These ebikes that are designed to look like motorcycles are a bane and shouldn't be allowed to be driven without a license and insurance. In the Toronto area we often see these bombing around, riders acting like they are motorcycles but having no training or understanding of safe practices, not wearing proper safety equipment, and several of the privately owned ones have been modified to increase their speed significantly. I have no issue with the tech, I think it could be a great green solution, but the policies and regulations around it need to get caught up before people are seriously injured.

singularity2001 8y ago
additionally/alternatively close one road after another for cars and make it exclusively pedestrian/cycling ground.
- evgen 8y ago
  And keep everything that is not powered exclusively by muscles out of those areas.
coldtea 8y ago
>not wearing proper safety equipment, Well, that's their problem. Also take a look at how 3 billion people ride their motorcycles and mopeds (often 3-5 at a time) in e.g. China, India, Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, etc. and the complains against ebikes are absolutely nullified...
- kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
  Take a look at the chaos in their streets and the associated fatalities.
- sandworm101 8y ago
  >> Well, that's their problem. I don;t live in Cambodia. When people here get hurt in my neighborhood they block traffic, are taken to hospital and are treated by teams of government-paid professionals. Then if they have severe head injuries that medical treatment may continue for many decades. We insist on helmets, as we insist on things like brakes and seatbelts, because we know that individual injuries quickly become everyone's problem.

madrox 8y ago

> Then I realize how disturbing it is that these attempts at clarity would seem quaint and surprising, and how any sniff of earnestness from a tech company can feel like a sign of deceit. This is the line that stuck out to me in the whole article. Is this really where we are? Has tech sunk that low?

worik 8y ago

A "moped" has pedals. These are not mopeds...

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
s0rce 8y ago
Yes, technically they are scooters, it seems the terms are frequently used incorrectly. Although, since the pedals really don't contribute much useful power on a moped it doesn't really matter.

singularity2001 8y ago

Are there any models which are not ridiculously tiny for tall people?

e40 8y ago

Hey, maybe the users can ride them on the sidewalk, too! I've been having fun dodging the bikes and scooters (from no less than 3 companies!)!! /s Seriously, my 2 mile walk to work has gone from a total joy to me looking over my shoulder to make sure I can change lanes without getting run over by a scooter/bike doing serious speed. And by change lanes I mean step around that dog turd.

dec0dedab0de 8y ago
Isnt it illegal in most places to ride vehicles on the sidewalk? Does it cause a lot of fights? I could imagine someone "accidentally" stretching at the right time to clothesline someone riding down the sidewalk. It's making me angry just thinking about it.
- xyzzyz 8y ago
  > I could imagine someone "accidentally" stretching at the right time to clothesline someone riding down the sidewalk. What you're describing here is aggravated assault, which is a serious crime.
  - privacypoller 8y ago
    chill - I don't think the GP actually suggesting we form vigilante squads to hunt down sidewalk-riding vesparados (see what I did there?)
- e40 8y ago
  Isnt it illegal in most places to ride vehicles on the sidewalk? Does it cause a lot of fights? Two days ago I said these words to a cyclist on the sidewalk coming toward me: please don't ride on the sidewalk. His reaction was to park his bike and walk toward me flipping the bird and yelling at me to "shut the fuck up"... I've never been in a fight over this, but too often this is the result. And lest you think I yelled those introductory words, I said them in the most pleading way I could muster. It is illegal to ride a bike on the sidewalk where I live. That doesn't stop the dozens of people I see each day. And this fun thing happened last night when I left my building (a very busy street): 2 cyclists coming through the intersection and one cyclist wanted to get around the other, so at the intersection he whipped onto the sidewalk, at about 20 mph, and rode between the people walking there. Had I exited my building seconds earlier I could have been serious injured by stepping into his path.

golemiprague 8y ago

In Tel Aviv I have seen the reverse, from a city with a lot of mopeds it turned into a city with a lot of electric bikes. Not for hire though, everybody have one anyways.

williesleg 8y ago

Holy crap that's a lot of words. Who reads that much on a single web page these days?

andyidsinga 8y ago

I see some regulation related comments in the mix - here's a pretty nice chart summarizing the situation in oregon: https://www.portlandoregon.gov/transportation/article/206901 https://www.portlandoregon.gov/transportation/article/206901 my guess is the muving scooter would fall under "moped rules" due to 30 mph and no pedals.

pessimizer 8y ago

This would be great if it weren't another ploy to hack the legal system through a moped-sized. Rent the same 125cc scooters that they already rent in Italy (a displacement size that can easily keep up with city traffic), require that users be licensed (and help them get licensed), and insure them. Instead, they're just going to look at the laws of each state and figure out the maximum speed and displacement they can offer to people without them having to be licensed or to have ever been on a scooter before, and whether if they duck tape some pedals to it they can get away with more. And what city/state official(s) they have to bribe to get those laws changed or to keep them unchanged after people end up severely brain injured and dead.

jachee 8y ago

I'm (honestly just a little) surprised there's no mention of Scoobi, who just launched in Pittsburgh. [0] Other than an opening weekend issue involving a few friends "terrorizing" them [1] they seem to be successful. I've seen several folks riding on them, many parked (legally, thanks to an agreement with the city), and none the worse for wear. Personally, I'm going to try one, on a weekend, before I brave the jagoffs of rush hour. 0. https://triblive.com/local/allegheny/13898057-74/scoobi-launches-scooter-service-in-pittsburgh https://triblive.com/local/allegheny/13898057-74/scoobi-laun... 1. https://theincline.com/2018/08/03/how-a-group-of-friends-terrorized-scoobi-pittsburghs-new-scooter-ride-share-service/ https://theincline.com/2018/08/03/how-a-group-of-friends-ter...

sonaltr 8y ago

If Mopeds or bicyclists or the like want to be on the road - that's fine. Get a Bike license and Insurance. A few weeks ago, a bicyclist clipped my bumper at a red light. I made sure it was safe, pulled over, put on my hazards, and got out. In that time, he had the audacity to claim that 1. I was at fault (I was not - I've got front & rear dashcam footage provided to the police & insurance as replacing the bumper is easily $2k for me). 2. When I told him about the dashcam, he then claimed we could split it 50/50 (while also claiming it's not more than $300 worth of damage if I took it to a shop that he said he'd "hook me up with" - which it's not. It's a brand new car and I'll take it to a dealership thank you very much.) 3. Claimed he was broke and could not afford to pay me $2k and since I worked downtown, I could "afford to eat the cost and not feel the difference" - like that mattered. 4. When I did call the cops, he decided to just take his bike and ride off.