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Salt not as damaging to health as previously thought, says study
- blattimwind 8y agoNutrition "science" caught again perpetuating findings based in assumption and hitting the data until it fits, not solid research? Oh no, nobody could've expected that... also "scientists who are on a crusade to reduce our salt consumption to near zero". Like pope Urban II always said, no better place to do sound research than on a crusade.
- killjoywashere 8y agoSalt increases intravascular osmolarity, which increases water retention to correct the osmolarity. This is freshman inorganic chemistry. There's plenty of biomedical science behind renal pathophysiology and the link between salt and blood pressure is as close to an if-then statement as there is in medicine. We use all sorts of drugs and methods to play with this central mechanism and can observe the effects in real time at the bedside. It's not "science". It's science, as in, emperically demonstrated, over and over, billions of times, every time, science. That said, healthy people manage their osmolarity and blood pressure through other renal mechanisms. The people who run up against this salt-blood pressure issue are generally medically fragile, older people who have outrun all their other compensation mechanisms. The question here is more about the cost-benefit of pushing this particular public health message. The vast majority of healthy people don't benefit, and the sick people get the word from their physicians anyway.
- 21 8y agoYeah, a lot of people have no idea about this "homeostasis" thing, which is how you get to stupid things like "foods matched to your blood type" or "alkaline diet"
- tgsovlerkhgsel 8y ago> The vast majority of healthy people don't benefit If there's indeed no benefit, then the message is actively harmful, because it causes people who follow it to suffer (from bad-tasting food, in this case). And of course, once they learn that they've essentially been lied to, they'll learn to ignore all "X is healthy/unhealthy for you" messages, which is probably a good thing given how many of them turn out to be wrong. (And if salt does not cause problems for most people, telling them that they need to eat less of it is wrong).
- ChrisRackauckas 8y ago>If there's indeed no benefit, then the message is actively harmful, because it causes people who follow it to suffer (from bad-tasting food, in this case). Well, the food doesn't end up tasting bad because they replace salt with sugar...
- astura 8y agoIt's not just bad tasting food either, too little salt is bad for you in itself.
- RobertRoberts 8y agoBut doesn't this same principle apply to everything you eat? Too much vitamin A, too much sugar, too many preservatives, too much caffeine, etc... Some things are detrimental to the body, and are not food, some things are food, but are only detrimental at large quantities. (what isn't?) But, your argument seems like a evasion of the truth, salt is actually food. (unless you want to argue that salt is not food, then your argument would not really apply in the same way) If you are going to claim "too much salt" = "salt is bad", "because science", then don't you have to argue how bad water is as well (in the same manner), because the renal system also gets rid of excess water too... http://www.nbcnews.com/id/16614865/ns/us_news-life/t/woman-dies-after-water-drinking-contest/ http://www.nbcnews.com/id/16614865/ns/us_news-life/t/woman-d...
- paavoova 8y agoDoesn't potassium work similarly then?
- killjoywashere 8y agoOf course, but potassium is mainly intracellular (a much larger fraction of the body's water) so it would be quite difficult to cause the same problems. Hyperkalemia definitely has its own problems though.
- blattimwind 8y ago"Salt has effect X" is not what's in the article, is not the recommendation widely circulated ("reduce our salt consumption to near zero", "salt is bad for health and should be avoided as much as possible" etc.) and thus not what I wrote about. You're building a straw-man. As straw-men go, you're technically correct in what you write, but miss that I didn't argue against the facts you laid out.
- Swizec 8y agoIs it really that surprising to anyone that salt isn't damaging? Salt makes your nerves work. You need those to think and move. I remember learning in a run-of-the-mill high school biology class that the electrolyte differential in nerve cells <insert handwaving> creates the electric pulse to make signals. I'm having trouble remembering the details, but I remember that it was basically "If you don't have enough salt, your nerves stop working and you die. If you have too much salt, your cells retain too much water and you die."
- goldenkey 8y agoWell functioning kidneys will handle moderate excess sodium with no issues. Remember hackers, population statistics and outcome studies help with diagnostics but do not have to tell you how to treat your specific body. It's in one's best interest to know your unique makeup: kidney function, liver function, IQ, testosterone levels, neurotransmitter levels, genetic fingerprint via 123AndMe or other, etc. Stats are only decent guides from an expected value metric if you consider yourself equally probable in the population distribution. But you aren't, you can find out all the above priors with some work..a pain in the ass but well worth it considering the time that health issues can take from you in the future. So take some time to do some mental psychometrics and physical biometrics on yourself. It's always worth it to be better able to see which science applies to you even when the science is results from totally uniform population.
- apo 8y agoReminds me of an odd statement I recently read: the average person has one testicle and one ovary.
- shmerl 8y agoIt does affect blood pressure negatively (making it too high), so avoiding making the food too salty is a good thing.
- nickik 8y agoHasn't that been known for a long time. The strong anti-Salt attitude was scientifically challenged for a long time but the knowledge is very slow to spread.
- killjoywashere 8y agoWe have known that salt is a vital part of the diet since pre-history. The problem is the modern diet, (Western, Eastern, or other) is rich in rich foods, and essentially all land animals evolved to favor salt, by taste rewards, geography, or whatever other genetic conditioning. Salt was scarce. Now it's not. And the access to salt induces direct salt consumption, which can be lethal to a brittle hypertensive, but also encourages more food consumption in general because it makes almost any food more delicious.
- astura 8y agoThe amount of salt consumed per capital has NOT increased in the last 50 years, it's stayed remarkably consistent even as packaged food has increased in saltiness. That suggests access to salt does NOT induce a direct salt consumption, it suggests humans regulate their salt consumption based on their biological needs.
- castratikron 8y agoSalt in itself may not be bad. But salt makes food taste better, which tends to make people eat more, which causes people to gain weight. And being overweight brings with it health issues. It's the second order effects that you need to be aware of when asking if something is "good" or "bad".
- killjoywashere 8y agoExcellent point. In addition to my reply to blattimwind (1), this is a very significant reason to be suspicious of pro-salt research/advertizing. (1) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17746708 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17746708
- ebbv 8y agoThis is some ass backwards reasoning. And life’s too short to eat bad tasting food on purpose.
- trukterious 8y agoHear hear. Also I'd bet that a given quantity of salt sprinked on french fries raises the blood pressure more than the same amount dissolved in a glass of water accompanying unsalted fries. Wonder if anyone has tested this (or similar)?
- aetherson 8y agoHow much would you bet on that?
- trukterious 8y agoFigure of speech :-) Yet I know from experience that visceral pleasures apparently make my heart beat faster, and that salt-water rinses for toothache are fairly unpleasant.
- GW150914 8y agoI stopped eating potato chips by switching to salty pretzels. I don’t feel an urge to overeat pretzels, they’re low in fat, and still give me the salt-crunch I’m looking for. I also find vegan/vegetarian cooking a lot easy to accept if it’s properly seasoned. When you take something out of a food, people tend to replace it with something else because (surprise!) they like appealing food. Take out fat, add in sugar, and that’s no good. Take out salt, add in fat and potassium, the fat isn’t great, and the K will screw over people with bad kidneys, Be wary of “that one bad thing” which is then summarily replaced.
- SimeVidas 8y agoRelevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xtnH0fxDUg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xtnH0fxDUg
- 21 8y agoAnd then people wonder why anti-science is a thing today. I basically stopped reading "science says that X is good/bad for your health" articles. At most I get entertaining value from them.
- clumsysmurf 8y agoAnd to play devil's advocate, the opposite findings from just this June https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/06/180622012101.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/06/180622012101.h...
- gboudrias 8y agoDang, I was about to buy a block of salt to lick for dessert :'(
- 2muchcoffeeman 8y agoThe article isn’t that biased either way. And it looks like many commenters haven’t read the article. My understanding from reading the article is the lower threshold is higher than we think. There are still negative effects at what we consider high levels of salt intake. They also mention same team who did this study published a previous study that met a lot a criticism and they apparently failed to address the criticisms. So you should probably moderate your salt intake still.
- macspoofing 8y agoNutrition Science is a huge mess even though it is a core part of human health. As in, it is a total disaster. Here's something depressing to think about: if the Keto people are correct, mainstream nutrition science was a key contributor to American obesity crisis and resulted in countless premature deaths and major suffering over the last few decades. Anyway, recently I wanted to look into whether or not eggs are good for you because those same Keto supporters make noise about how eggs no longer affect (bad?) cholesterol levels and therefore won't contribute to heart disease. You'd think it would be clear. Nope. It's about 50-50 split judging by various links (from seemingly reputable doctors and nutritionists). Even those docs that pay lip service to the changing attitudes towards eggs, don't know what a safe amount is and caution about eating more than X per day or week ... though not because of any specific studies, but just as a precaution. A simple question like "Can I eat 3 eggs for breakfast everyday" has no consensus answer. What the fuck.
- miguelrochefort 8y ago
- maxxxxx 8y agoAs with almost everything else moderation is key. Some salt is good, too much is bad. The question is where you are on that scale.
- kevin_thibedeau 8y ago> too much is bad In what way? Your kidneys dump any excess salt your body doesn't need. The long standing 20th century salt alarmism has no basis in reality.
- anoncoward111 8y agoUnless you are like me and have mild kidney failure and your kidneys cant really dump much of anything easily! All parameters should be based on personal experimentation
- marcosdumay 8y agoAs far as I remember, sodium is dumped passively. The one thing kidneys need an effort to make is to keep it at the blood, not to dump it away.
- anoncoward111 8y agoKidney failure = your kidneys are now a clogged shower drain that also lets protein and blood go into places it shouldnt
- 6d6b73 8y agoLess work for kidneys? Any side effects before excess salt is dumped? Like with anything too much of a good thing could be bad.
- latexr 8y ago> > too much is bad > In what way? “Of course too much is bad for you. Too much of anything is bad for you. (…) That’s what “too much” means. (…) “Too much” is precisely that quantity which is excessive. That’s what it means.” From https://youtu.be/XewVicFzRxw?t=2m44s https://youtu.be/XewVicFzRxw?t=2m44s
- barking 8y agoI remember when butter was bad for you and my dad, who was great butter lover switched to a particular type of margarine that was marketed as being good for you. Later it turned out it had the wrong sort of fats in it. Then later again butter became OK again.
- cies 8y agoAFAIK, butter is still worse then no butter (and more calories from whole plant foods instead). Margarine may or may not be worse than butter (I think it is worse). It is better to avoid/reduce all refined fats (oils), except maybe for a high DHA omega 3 supplement. If you want to eat for health, look into WFPB, they have a lot of science on their side.
- quakenul 8y agoGetting definitive information on nutrition always seems to be a lot harder than it should be in 2018
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- barking 8y agoThen there was the 6 glasses of water a day that became dogma but had no basis.
- Izkata 8y agoIt was based on a misunderstanding: People need the equivalent of 6 glasses of water a day, but a large chunk of that comes in through food and drink you already have. For most, adding one or two glasses of water a day would put you up at the goal. That said, I don't recall where the target number came from.
- DougMerritt 8y ago
- Numberwang 8y agoSo many confident comments in this thread. Why not make yourselves aware of the many big studies which all point in the same direction instead of just regurgitating what little pop science you are aware of?
- goostavos 8y agoThe confidence is unreal! We're lucky to have so many experts in our midst. I hear one of them even read a book on the topic and you should read it too so that you can know the REAL correct diet that will lead to immortality.
- jpmattia 8y agoScientific American was pounding this drum in 2011. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/its-time-to-end-the-war-on-salt/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/its-time-to-end-t...
- walshemj 8y agoInterestingly I think I said this before but last year had my specialist renal dietician (I was on disalysis), comment that the anti salt campaign had been well marketed but they " didn't tell you what S^%^T they use to replace salt" in lo salt foods.
- chrisbennet 8y agoI was going to post that but you beat me to it.
- JeanMarcS 8y agoDuring the heat wave in France this summer, messages to old persons were to drink regularly (which sometimes they forget) So a quarter of medical consultations related to elders and heat was for a lack of salt [0]. From Google translate it’s call hyponatremia. So as stated in other comments, moderation, may be, lack, bad idea. I’m actually in Ireland. They seem to have taken the salt part very seriously, as everything need to be resalted (for me and my family). But everything is over sugared. [0] https://www.nouvelobs.com/societe/20180806.OBS0591/canicule-les-personnes-agees-doivent-aussi-veiller-a-ne-pas-trop-boire-d-eau.html https://www.nouvelobs.com/societe/20180806.OBS0591/canicule-... (in French) Edit : typos
- chomp 8y agoYep. I go on longer (60+ mile) bike rides once a week. Salt is so important on those rides, I get severe cramps without it. Especially when cycling on 100+ degree days.
- jschwartzi 8y agoYeah, I've hiked with people on low-salt diets and they've never failed to get a hyponatremia headache that gets better when they drink some electrolyte(salt). Frankly it doesn't make any sense to me to take an intervention that's good for high blood pressure and unilaterally try to apply it to perfectly healthy people. They did that with fat too and look where we are.
- rorykoehler 8y agoSodium causes high blood pressure. Electrolyte drinks don't contain sodium but magnesium (and some other salts) if i remember correctly.
- dragonwriter 8y agoMost electrolyte drinks contain both table salt (sodium chloride) and some potassium-based salt; some also contain magnesium salts.
- PunchTornado 8y agoI guess just eating what you like and enjoy your life is the only sensible advice you can get. Don't exaggerate with anything: sugar, salt, alcohol, have them in moderation, like exercise and you'll be fine. Also a must: stop reading nutrition science.
- antisthenes 8y agoWe can certainly agree that the if the time spent reading dietary advice and nutrition articles with clickbaity headlines was spent on exercise instead, we'd all be better off.
- weiming 8y agoIs there an objective and definitive list of food things that are bad for you? These "studies" keep switching their recommendations.
- jaequery 8y agojust eat a bit of everything. a healthy balanced diet of fat, sugar, salt, or whatever it is that people says is bad for you, is still way better than someone just eating one thing every day.
- grecy 8y agoNow whenever I see a result like this I have to wonder who paid for the study? And more importantly, who paid to have the other x studies buried that found a different result?
- MarkusAllen 8y agoI understand the first thing emergency people do in the hospital is to give us a saline (salt) solution. If salt is so bad for us, why are we given a bag of salt water?
- givinguflac 8y agoThis has been another episode of “the effect of sodium chloride on human health.” See you yet again next decade!
- bgongfu 8y agoThere are different qualities of salt. Some contain additives, sea salt contains plastic particles. I eat plenty of salt, as much as I feel like; but it's all mineral salt without additives.
- DINKDINK 8y agoNutrition + human bodies are systems which are too complex to reason about effects. From a Design-of-Experiments perspective, it's practically untractable.
- rossdavidh 8y agoWhenever I hear discussion of whether we should defer to the judgement of scientists, I always want to ask, which field of science do you mean? In some, like physics, chemistry, evolutionary biology, geology, there is still much to be learned but what we have so far is pretty solid. You don't hear about the basics (matter is made of atoms, species emerge from natural selection, plate tectonics) getting overturned. Then, there are other fields, like economics and nutrition, where the basic fundamentals of the field are a pile of mud. It is much like medicine in the era of balancing the four humours. In the meantime, we need to fund research, but not listen to any of the recommendations of the experts, until they achieve a basic level of understanding of their subject (which clearly hasn't happened yet).
- kjeetgill 8y agoI'd love to read a book on the subject. What did it take for various scientific fields to become truly mature? Are their key ways to measure how far along we are? Concrete, predictive theories would be great but I get that we're far from them in fields like nutrition short of, like, scurvy I guess? I wonder how much of this is due to the natural variation among individuals and how much is just because of ethical limits on scientific inquiry. Not that I'm advocating for human experiments but one has to wonder what we could discover.
- Cacti 8y agoMeasurement. If you can’t measure it you can’t predict it.
- rapsey 8y ago> Then, there are other fields, like economics and nutrition, where the basic fundamentals of the field are a pile of mud. Practically all social sciences are suspect and really have no business calling themselves sciences.
- j88439h84 8y agoWhat are your criteria?
- Nasrudith 8y agoIt is amazing how persistently common the 'oven logic' silliness is with medicine despite the fact that laypeople should really know better by now let alone scientists. If adequate doses of Vitamin C are good for you then megadoses must prevent cancer! Oh wait they actually increase your risk of cancer. Biological systems aren't that simple - otherwise we'd already see great results from the outliers and we don't. It brings to mind the irony of trial lawyers becoming addicted to huge lawsuits thanks to the tobacco industry. Despite the obvious merits and misconduct of the defendants making it justified it seems to have had a harmful side effect of causing many lawyers to start looking for 'the next tobacco' case with no care to the underlying merit.
- efiecho 8y agoSalt is what makes food taste bad when it's not in it.
- calvinbhai 8y agoWas this study funded directly or indirectly (through a bunch of shell research organizations / industry bodies) ? What sustained the costs of the study? Without knowing the funding situation, what's the point debating about this study? Skeptical me wonders if this was funded by industry that has been affected badly by sodium horror stories, and subtly plugs in potassium as a healthier alternative.
- venomsnake 8y agoOvereating is damaging to health. You will find all kind of extreme and outlier diets around the world. The populations eating them are still healthy.