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China is detaining a million Uighur muslims in a secret camp

crunchlibrarian 8y ago
I don't know if this is really HN fodder or not, but I noticed it immediately after the announcement that Google is now moving into China and complying with everything.
- greenyoda 8y ago
  That was discussed on HN a lot a few days ago - here's the main discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17660872 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17660872
- astebbin 8y ago
  There is relevance to state-of-the-art surveillance technologies deployed in Xinjiang: http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/china-s-xinjiang-province-a-surveillance-state-unlike-any-the-world-has-ever-seen-a-1220174.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/china-s-xinjiang-p...
- donbright 8y ago
  I'd recommend the Sinica podcast, they have done several shows on surveillance tech and the Chinese state, including one focusing on xinjiang and these camps. Big tech in China is closely linked to government social engineering.
api 8y ago
A million. We had a few migrants in much nicer camps than this and there was moral outrage.
- jonhendry18 8y ago
  As there should be.
  - merpnderp 8y ago
    I think he’s pointing out the hypocrisy of there being nearly nothing in the news cycle about this and certainly no national outrage or protests, implying much of the protests against ICE were simple political point scoring and not genuine concern for strangers’ wellbeing.
    - jonhendry18 8y ago
      " no national outrage or protests" What, in the US? What would be the point, especially with Trump in the White House, uninterested in human rights issues. Americans protest the detentions and family separations here because we're at some level responsible for it, our taxes are being used to pay for it, and in our system there's potential for a good resolution to come about due to protest. Also, tanks probably won't be sent to crush a protest.
      - merpnderp 8y ago
        Trump is in a major trade war with China right now, and just scored some major points for US oil. Even if you are cynical and think Trump doesn’t care about human rights, there’s certainly never been a time in recent history where a president could use major human rights protests to effect change in China. Ie Trump could certainly use the leverage against China right now. So if you do care, there’s never been a better time to protest.
    - api 8y ago
      I was mostly pointing out the hypocrisy of so many Americans ignoring Chinas awful human rights record because there is money to be made. The same applies to Saudi Arabia, which is much worse than China yet also makes Americans rich so we look the other way.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- mikeash 8y ago
  Implying we’re fine as long as we’re better than China?
  - superioritycplx 8y ago
    Better than China AND simply following the previous administration's decisions.
  - gwbas1c 8y ago
    Perhaps our (American) freedom of the press helps prevent problems like this from growing? Our government can't keep it a secret. The Chinese government can.
greenyoda 8y ago
Extensive discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17734840 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17734840
throwando208818 8y ago
Whatever you do, don't ever compare President Xi Jingping to Winnie the Pooh: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-08/winnie-the-pooh-film-christopher-robin-banned-in-china/10088446 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-08/winnie-the-pooh-film-c... Don't even think about it. There's definitely an uptick of Chinese gov't influence operations on Reddit, HN might be a bit under the radar but just in case... http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/ATAG/2018/621875/EPRS_ATA(2018)621875_EN.pdf http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/ATAG/2018/62187... If you're a connected young prince w/ a cushy party/govt job in China you're ballin' and life is goooood. But if you're Joe-Shmoe you're kinda screwed, like with a most nightmare regimes it's the worker bees who get hit worst.
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago
  > If you're a connected young prince w/ a cushy party/govt job in China you're ballin' and life is goooood I’ve recently been reading a lot about the late Roman republic. Cycles move faster nowadays. These people have a lot to worry about, and rational reasons to live fast.
jostmey 8y ago
How are there not more pictures of this secret camp? How has it been kept a secret for so long?
- danielvf 8y ago
  Camps, not camp. Here are some: https://medium.com/@shawnwzhang/list-of-re-education-camps-in-xinjiang-%E6%96%B0%E7%96%86%E5%86%8D%E6%95%99%E8%82%B2%E9%9B%86%E4%B8%AD%E8%90%A5%E5%88%97%E8%A1%A8-99720372419c https://medium.com/@shawnwzhang/list-of-re-education-camps-i...
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  It's no secret, it just hasn't been a press-meme.
sonnyblarney 8y ago
It's odd that China denies the existence of these things, because as of late, they usually do some logical jujitsu to validate their actions, whatever they are. To deny something that exists, and if there is open evidence that it does exists, really has to hurt one's own credibility. The treatment of Tibetans is no secret, the Chinese use the 'look how Americans treated Aboriginals in the 19th century' which is bizarre, but not worse than denial. Saudi Arabia is in a spat over human rights with Canada right now trying to indicate that Canada is a 'human rights abuser' given the number of homeless there. But to just 'deny deny deny' is bad in the era of the Internet. My bet is that average Chinese people could be propagandized into the line on Tibet, but if they find that there are 1M people in camps, and their government has been denying it, well, it just kills any credibility the government may have.
- throwando208818 8y ago
  "To deny something that exists, and if there is open evidence that it does exists, really has to hurt one's own credibility." --Careful with that thinking, you likely live/cameup in a somewhat free/democratic society If you talk to folks who have to live in say Russia/Putin-stan today when the government lies and everyone knows that the government knows that everyone knows they're lying it's actually a mechanism of intimidation and control. It really boils down to "we can get away with saying or doing whatever we want-- what are YOU going to do about it?" or "Your facts don't matter, your information doesn't matter, your data doesn't matter, your truth doesn't matter-- all that matters is power and we have the power and we're in charge." This strategy is a bit different from the casual/blatant general dishonesty of the current American president (it seems to be a bit of a personal tick rather than this kind of deliberate thinking) --- but it is absolutely a well-worn trick of nightmare authoritarian regimes. If you're not already familiar, check out these journalists: - julia ioffe - masha gessen If you want some provocative Chinese muck-raking, these sometimes be useful/interesting resources: - https://www.chinasmack.com/ https://www.chinasmack.com/ - http://www.chinauncensored.tv/ http://www.chinauncensored.tv/
- dnomad 8y ago
  > To deny something that exists, and if there is open evidence that it does exists, really has to hurt one's own credibility. What evidence? The UN says it has "credible reports." There's absolutely no information about the contents of these reports or where they came from -- only a blind assertion that they exist. Meanwhile China has always been transparent about what is happening in Xinjiang and makes little attempt to hide it. The public ceremonies and mandatory educational courses are public -- that's kinda the point. The only thing remarkable here is that after the Iraq War, after the endless propaganda effort against Iran (remember all the breathless reporting about Iran forcing non-Muslims to wear badges [1]?) so many people are still dumb enough to accept this sort of "reporting" without any verifiable, documentary evidence let alone actual first-hand witness accounts. [1] https://www.haaretz.com/1.4907670 https://www.haaretz.com/1.4907670
jorblumesea 8y ago
Horrific to think this is an up and coming super power. What kind of standards does this set on a international scale? What kind of example does this send to surrounding nations? I get the US is not exactly the best leader in human rights, but the transgressions of another is a tu quoque logical fallacy. I wonder at what point do we sanction them on human rights concerns, if that is even possible at this point. If it's not physical genocide, at the minimum it's cultural genocide.
- throwando208818 8y ago
  This moment, the opening of the 21st century, is quite literally the worst time for the United States gov't to be really shitting the bed WRT promoting human rights. The United States stumbles dick-first sometimes into insane or really dumb policies & ideas but they can occasionally be reasoned with & there are people who aren't nakedly corrupt & awful in the gov't aparatus. When/if China or any of the other usual suspects become the biggest dog on the block that goes out the window
- antt 8y ago
  >I get the US is not exactly the best leader in human rights, but the transgressions of another is a tu quoque logical fallacy. Holding everyone to the same standard isn't a logical fallacy, it's fairness.
- krapp 8y ago
  The standard for superpowers was already set by the US and USSR - if you have nuclear weapons and the ability to project military force globally, you can more or less get away with anything. I don't know about their force projection capabilities but I'm sure their nukes can reach the US, and they can definitely reach our allies, and of course Japan and Korea would just be screwed. So... maybe they'll get a stern talking to.
  - will4274 8y ago
    Sure, but that doesn't mean the US has to trade with them or offer them access to its financial systems.
07d046 8y ago
I'm happy to see more headlines about this, because this doesn't seem to be getting the attention it deserves. Here is one account from a camp: > “Xi Jinping is great! The Communist Party is great! I deserve punishment for not understanding that only President Xi Jinping and the Communist Party can help me,” was one of the refrains that a Uyghur woman who was in a centre last fall, was forced to regularly repeat. > The woman, whose name is not being used by The Globe and Mail for her protection, was put through regular self-criticism sessions. Part of the content was cultural. “My soul is infected with serious diseases,” she would repeat. “There is no God. I don’t believe in God. I believe in the Communist Party.” > Other content was more explicitly political. Day after day she would say out loud that she was a traitor, a separatist and a terrorist. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-former-detainees-recount-abuse-in-chinese-re-education-centres/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-former-detaine... This story was published yesterday: > She was one of the most revered academics from the Uighur ethnic minority in far western China. She had written extensively and lectured across China and the world to explain and celebrate Uighurs’ varied traditions. Her research was funded by Chinese government ministries and praised by other scholars. > Then she disappeared. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/10/world/asia/china-xinjiang-rahile-dawut.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/10/world/asia/china-xinjiang...
- Inconel 8y ago
  Genuine question for someone with a better understanding of psychology, or the kind of propaganda employed by authoritarian regimes, but what purpose does this serve? I can't imagine you can actually convince someone to suddenly like the CCP or Xi Jinping through something like this. Is it simply a tool to show who's in charge?
  - throwando208818 8y ago
    Bingo. In an authoritarian situation it literally doesn't matter if you believe what you're saying. You just say it to get through the day. It's not like a scifi movie where every little thing is monitored, the game is you just don't cause yourself (or perhaps more importantly your pals or family) trouble and try to "get yours" and live something resembling a decent/self-actualized life. For the regime, those kind of performative statements sets a good example & makes the problem go away
dghughes 8y ago
China has detained over three million people in an even bigger area called Tibet. A few years ago there was video of people; men, women and children desperately trying to escape over a mountain into Nepal. Long lines of people on snow mountain peaks. Chinese military snipers picked them off one by one.
- est 8y ago
  Use your common sense. Watch the video again. If a group of people was shot, they'd more likely to lay down immediately, not continue climbing. It's mostly likely that guy was tripped into the snow by accident.
  - dnomad 8y ago
    At this point the only thing this thread actually demonstrates is the intensity and the stupidity of the latest anti-Chinese propaganda. These fact-free Two Minute Hates against the endless enemies of the West are very much not about common sense.
    - est 8y ago
      China got this on itself. Back in 2008 there are actually Chinese/Tibetans debating on this matter on the Interweb. Now all sites are blocked in China, it's one sided voice only.
  - will4274 8y ago
    China admitted to killing one person (a 17 year old nun, at that) after the video evidence came out. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nangpa_La_shooting_incident https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nangpa_La_shooting_incident
    - est 8y ago
      Admitted according to wikipedia? China never admits nothing. The video is a solid evidence of one people fall down. The shooting maybe happened before or after the video.
resters 8y ago
Ironically, the "camps" alleged in the article are quite likely luxury hotels compared to Gitmo. Also, the 600K to 1M civilians killed by the US in Iraq for what could be termed (civilian casualties in the fight against religious extremism) are no longer able to tell their story to journalists. There's been a fresh wave of anti-China propaganda stories dropping this week. Reader beware.
- intro-b 8y ago
  at the same time, every article remotely critical of China in HN always has a squadron of comments employing whataboutism and deflection and unsubstantiated accusations of anti-China propaganda.
  - resters 8y ago
    I think your view might be overly binary. This story may both be true and be propaganda. What better kind of propaganda than stuff that is actually true? What's important with propaganda is not how true it is, but the timing and the context and the reason why it is being deployed. By pointing out that this is part of a campaign, I'm not saying I disagree with the motive for the campaign or the truth claims in the stories (or that I oppose them). In my view, the mechanisms of propaganda are more interesting than the tit for tat between two morally mediocre powers.
  - dnomad 8y ago
    It's not whataboutism to point out that the vast majority of anti-Chinese propaganda being posted to HN is just that. There are real problems in Xinjang. Noted Xinjang politicians and academics do disappear. China has both secret courts and preventive detention. There is real evidence of this eg [1] [2]. But we don't get articles about the actual issues. We get this sort of breathless, fact-free nonsense about millions of people disappearing into "extrajudicial camps." It has no relation to reality and exists only to push a narrative and get clicks. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/10/world/asia/china-xinjiang-rahile-dawut.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/10/world/asia/china-xinjiang... [2] https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/07/uighur-graduate-student-goes-missing-upon-returning-to-china/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/07/uighur-gradua...
simpsond 8y ago
I traveled around Xinjiang in 2010. I was in Urumqi during the one year anniversary of the 2009 Urumqi riots and there was some tensions. Armored and armed guard units were walking the streets, and the Uyghur people we talked with were very nervous. There was segregation at a business level there. The main strip for food was Uyghur on one side, Hon on the other. At the time, it seemed unsettling, but people were getting on with their lives. Looking back on it, I realize I was part of a joined agenda. We stayed in a Military hotel, and had a driver/escort who was special forces. We had to get permission to do the things we did. We wanted to stay with a Kazakh family, but were denied and told that we could stay with another Kazakh family. It was all pretty wild, and my friend kept in touch with a Uyghur we met, and she desperately wanted out of Xinjiang... and was essentially living in fear. I didn't hear about camps then, but I wouldn't put it past the government.
- flyrain 8y ago
  Are you talking about Xinjiang?
  - arcticbull 8y ago
    That’s where Urumqi is
    - kwk1 8y ago
      I think the point of confusion was: > I traveled around Xianjian in 2010. instead of Xinjiang.
  - simpsond 8y ago
    Thanks, edited.
- bnolsen 8y ago
  My wife's relatives were scared to death. the muslims had been allowed to carry ceremonial knives...they started using these on the han people. Also they were randomly injecting people with needles with unknown substances. No one was going out they were so scared. As of last year if you want to go grocery shopping or to any restaurant you have to have your bags xrayed and walk through a metal detector. Mind you I am no supporter of the chinese government and strongly condemn what they are doing to christians now amongst other things, but those people are doing what muslim groups do worldwide and have been causing trouble in western china for at the very least many decades.
bombless 8y ago
http://news.ifeng.com/mainland/special/xjqjdh/ http://news.ifeng.com/mainland/special/xjqjdh/ Chinese local report for those who can read Chinese and understand how you should respect jews
Karishma1234 8y ago
The interesting thing about whole this Chinese persecution of Muslims is the complete silence from their Islamic friends such as Pakistan and Saudi. I would expect America's friend Saudi to be very vocal critic of China's actions. But so far everyone has been silent.
- petre 8y ago
  You expect another totalitarian regime to care about people? I don't know about Pakistan, but in SA women just got the right to drive cars. In 2018.
  - Karishma1234 8y ago
    > care about people? No. But I think Saudi deeply cares about Islamic demography in every country including USA. Saudi invests billions of dollars in countries like India to make sure Muslims remain radical and under the control of sharia and women on street wear hijab. In my village for example an international NGO funded by Saudi pays INR 800 ($12) to women who wear hijaab.
- sumedh 8y ago
  > Islamic friends such as Pakistan and Saudi. Pakistan had national election recently, the prime minister will be in office this month and I dont think the new PM will start by attacking China who they depend on to counter India.
juskrey 8y ago
Characteristically, when videos of muslims cutting christian and "wrong type" of muslim heads are openly circulating internet, UN shows no slightest concern.
- ChristianBundy 8y ago
  Nice post history. Please troll elsewhere.
myf01d 8y ago
I hope that I see for once before I die a single report by BBC of what Muslims from Indonesia to Mali are doing with minorities, gays, even other Muslims from different sects other than Sunnis. I hope that BBC does a single report about the extremist Muslim neighborhoods in the UK and other European countries. I hope that I can express my opinions in this website without getting massively downvoted within seconds.
- thebooktocome 8y ago
  What an odd thing to want to see before you die.
- Zaheer 8y ago
  What are you trying to achieve with that statement? Responding to an article about Muslims being persecuted with examples of some Muslims persecuting others is utterly useless. It's like responding to an article on 9/11 with examples of atrocious things the KKK has done. You're making a pathetic attempt to justify what China is doing. Downvoting you is exactly what should happen.
  - myf01d 8y ago
    while I am not even white or from the west myself, but comparing 9/11 or extremist muslims with KKK is just idiotic to say the least. I am not making any justification for China btw, it's the biggest dictatorship on Earth, what do you expect?
- dang 8y ago
  Since you've continued to use HN for political battle just after we asked you to stop, I've banned this account. Religious flamewar is particularly unwelcome here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
anoncow201852 8y ago
Is there any other news that provides more details about who is being selected to be in these camps? Are these criminals that have broken some law and are in prison? I know 1 million seems like a huge number, but to put things in perspective, the there are over 2 million African Americans in "camps." I understand there is a huge difference and I'm not saying they are remotely the same. I've just been more careful in recent years because these same news organizations seem to downplay terrorist attacks in China [1]. 1. https://www.quora.com/Why-is-the-same-act-in-Kunming-called-a-knife-attack-but-in-London-a-terror-attack-by-the-BBC-What-is-the-reason-for-the-calls-of-knife-wielding-versus-terrorism-by-CNN https://www.quora.com/Why-is-the-same-act-in-Kunming-called-...
dang 8y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17734840 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17734840 In addition, you rewrote the title to make it more sensational and tendentious. Editorializing like that breaks the site guidelines. Please don't. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- whatyoucantsay 8y ago
  The story you linked above, with over 170 upvotes and less than a day old appears nowhere on the first 5 pages of HN. It's hard to imagine HN suppressing any similar story from a similarly credible source about a million people being detained in any predominantly white or English-speaking country. There's a lot of money for YC to make in China, but this is a million human lives. Please at least try to think about that. (And yes, the story is certainly drawing flags from Chinese patriots and wumaodang alike)
  - dang 8y ago
    That doesn't reflect how HN is moderated at all. Your claim about who's flagging is equally made-up. Edit: the claim in your profile is also completely untrue. In fact you have a long history of making things up about HN moderation, posting them, and continuing to repeat the false claims when corrected. You also have a long history of using HN for political battle about China. If you keep abusing the site this way, we're eventually going to ban you. Dramatic allegations about "censorship" and "suppression" don't immunize you against having to follow the rules like other users.
    - whatyoucantsay 8y ago
      The comment was specifically directed at you and it was an appeal to conscience. > "In fact you have a long history of making things up about HN moderation, posting them, and continuing to repeat the false claims when corrected." That's quite a claim. Outsiders are not privy to your moderation actions, the weighting algorithms of the site or who is flagging which stories. Conjectures about an opaque system aren't fabrications. They're good faith conjectures. What can be known is which stories have comments from mods saying they've turned off flags. Many address political and cultural issues of Silicon Valley, which is essentially the first world of the first world. > "You also have a long history of using HN for political battle about China." What I attempt to do is voice minority opinions that I believe are true. Nothing more, except a deep concern for human rights which unfortunately does tend to intersect with news about China. It's admirable to address the authoritarianism and even ethnonationalism of the US administration, as your team has. It's also absurd to simultaneously label any discussion of far more authoriarian and ethnonationalism of the CCP or others as "political battle". Absolutely nothing in my comment above was "political battle". I saw a thread about the detention of a million human beings with over 170 upvotes that was already buried in less than a day and commented. It's sad so many can be so worked up about the struggles of some of the most advantaged people in the world and yet be numb to the detention of so large a number of our human cousins while their families are forced to house government minders. Financial incentives cannot prove any wrong-doing of course, but they are corrosive. I believe the point of the previous comment likely stands, but these two questions should illuminate: 1) Has HN ever (whether through automated or other means) quickly buried any similarly popular story about people in a western country being similarly wronged at this scale? 2) Can you truthfully deny that YC has had any dealings with the Chinese government or state-owned enterprises, or has any economic incentives at stake in dealing with news the CCP doesn't like? If the answer to either is yes, I'll gladly apologize and retract the comment (but not my sympathy for the subjects of this BBC article). Edit: this comment on a week-old post, which breaks no site guidelines AFAICT, was flagged in under an hour. :/
joaomacp 8y ago
I feel like there's a tremendous influence of the Chinese government in the comments I'm seeing to this news here and on Reddit. I think that the Chinese government has control over which news go viral, as there are chinese programmers in Reddit and facebook killing unwanted posts. They work for the chinese government's interest, at the threat of having their families killed in China if they don't do so. Welcome to the 3rd World War.

I don't know if this is really HN fodder or not, but I noticed it immediately after the announcement that Google is now moving into China and complying with everything.

greenyoda 8y ago
That was discussed on HN a lot a few days ago - here's the main discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17660872 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17660872
astebbin 8y ago
There is relevance to state-of-the-art surveillance technologies deployed in Xinjiang: http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/china-s-xinjiang-province-a-surveillance-state-unlike-any-the-world-has-ever-seen-a-1220174.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/china-s-xinjiang-p...
donbright 8y ago
I'd recommend the Sinica podcast, they have done several shows on surveillance tech and the Chinese state, including one focusing on xinjiang and these camps. Big tech in China is closely linked to government social engineering.

api 8y ago

A million. We had a few migrants in much nicer camps than this and there was moral outrage.

jonhendry18 8y ago
As there should be.
- merpnderp 8y ago
  I think he’s pointing out the hypocrisy of there being nearly nothing in the news cycle about this and certainly no national outrage or protests, implying much of the protests against ICE were simple political point scoring and not genuine concern for strangers’ wellbeing.
  - jonhendry18 8y ago
    " no national outrage or protests" What, in the US? What would be the point, especially with Trump in the White House, uninterested in human rights issues. Americans protest the detentions and family separations here because we're at some level responsible for it, our taxes are being used to pay for it, and in our system there's potential for a good resolution to come about due to protest. Also, tanks probably won't be sent to crush a protest.
    - merpnderp 8y ago
      Trump is in a major trade war with China right now, and just scored some major points for US oil. Even if you are cynical and think Trump doesn’t care about human rights, there’s certainly never been a time in recent history where a president could use major human rights protests to effect change in China. Ie Trump could certainly use the leverage against China right now. So if you do care, there’s never been a better time to protest.
  - api 8y ago
    I was mostly pointing out the hypocrisy of so many Americans ignoring Chinas awful human rights record because there is money to be made. The same applies to Saudi Arabia, which is much worse than China yet also makes Americans rich so we look the other way.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
mikeash 8y ago
Implying we’re fine as long as we’re better than China?
- superioritycplx 8y ago
  Better than China AND simply following the previous administration's decisions.
- gwbas1c 8y ago
  Perhaps our (American) freedom of the press helps prevent problems like this from growing? Our government can't keep it a secret. The Chinese government can.

greenyoda 8y ago

Extensive discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17734840 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17734840

throwando208818 8y ago

Whatever you do, don't ever compare President Xi Jingping to Winnie the Pooh: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-08/winnie-the-pooh-film-christopher-robin-banned-in-china/10088446 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-08/winnie-the-pooh-film-c... Don't even think about it. There's definitely an uptick of Chinese gov't influence operations on Reddit, HN might be a bit under the radar but just in case... http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/ATAG/2018/621875/EPRS_ATA(2018)621875_EN.pdf http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/ATAG/2018/62187... If you're a connected young prince w/ a cushy party/govt job in China you're ballin' and life is goooood. But if you're Joe-Shmoe you're kinda screwed, like with a most nightmare regimes it's the worker bees who get hit worst.

JumpCrisscross 8y ago
> If you're a connected young prince w/ a cushy party/govt job in China you're ballin' and life is goooood I’ve recently been reading a lot about the late Roman republic. Cycles move faster nowadays. These people have a lot to worry about, and rational reasons to live fast.

jostmey 8y ago

How are there not more pictures of this secret camp? How has it been kept a secret for so long?

danielvf 8y ago
Camps, not camp. Here are some: https://medium.com/@shawnwzhang/list-of-re-education-camps-in-xinjiang-%E6%96%B0%E7%96%86%E5%86%8D%E6%95%99%E8%82%B2%E9%9B%86%E4%B8%AD%E8%90%A5%E5%88%97%E8%A1%A8-99720372419c https://medium.com/@shawnwzhang/list-of-re-education-camps-i...
sonnyblarney 8y ago
It's no secret, it just hasn't been a press-meme.

sonnyblarney 8y ago

It's odd that China denies the existence of these things, because as of late, they usually do some logical jujitsu to validate their actions, whatever they are. To deny something that exists, and if there is open evidence that it does exists, really has to hurt one's own credibility. The treatment of Tibetans is no secret, the Chinese use the 'look how Americans treated Aboriginals in the 19th century' which is bizarre, but not worse than denial. Saudi Arabia is in a spat over human rights with Canada right now trying to indicate that Canada is a 'human rights abuser' given the number of homeless there. But to just 'deny deny deny' is bad in the era of the Internet. My bet is that average Chinese people could be propagandized into the line on Tibet, but if they find that there are 1M people in camps, and their government has been denying it, well, it just kills any credibility the government may have.

throwando208818 8y ago
"To deny something that exists, and if there is open evidence that it does exists, really has to hurt one's own credibility." --Careful with that thinking, you likely live/cameup in a somewhat free/democratic society If you talk to folks who have to live in say Russia/Putin-stan today when the government lies and everyone knows that the government knows that everyone knows they're lying it's actually a mechanism of intimidation and control. It really boils down to "we can get away with saying or doing whatever we want-- what are YOU going to do about it?" or "Your facts don't matter, your information doesn't matter, your data doesn't matter, your truth doesn't matter-- all that matters is power and we have the power and we're in charge." This strategy is a bit different from the casual/blatant general dishonesty of the current American president (it seems to be a bit of a personal tick rather than this kind of deliberate thinking) --- but it is absolutely a well-worn trick of nightmare authoritarian regimes. If you're not already familiar, check out these journalists: - julia ioffe - masha gessen If you want some provocative Chinese muck-raking, these sometimes be useful/interesting resources: - https://www.chinasmack.com/ https://www.chinasmack.com/ - http://www.chinauncensored.tv/ http://www.chinauncensored.tv/
dnomad 8y ago
> To deny something that exists, and if there is open evidence that it does exists, really has to hurt one's own credibility. What evidence? The UN says it has "credible reports." There's absolutely no information about the contents of these reports or where they came from -- only a blind assertion that they exist. Meanwhile China has always been transparent about what is happening in Xinjiang and makes little attempt to hide it. The public ceremonies and mandatory educational courses are public -- that's kinda the point. The only thing remarkable here is that after the Iraq War, after the endless propaganda effort against Iran (remember all the breathless reporting about Iran forcing non-Muslims to wear badges [1]?) so many people are still dumb enough to accept this sort of "reporting" without any verifiable, documentary evidence let alone actual first-hand witness accounts. [1] https://www.haaretz.com/1.4907670 https://www.haaretz.com/1.4907670

jorblumesea 8y ago

Horrific to think this is an up and coming super power. What kind of standards does this set on a international scale? What kind of example does this send to surrounding nations? I get the US is not exactly the best leader in human rights, but the transgressions of another is a tu quoque logical fallacy. I wonder at what point do we sanction them on human rights concerns, if that is even possible at this point. If it's not physical genocide, at the minimum it's cultural genocide.

throwando208818 8y ago
This moment, the opening of the 21st century, is quite literally the worst time for the United States gov't to be really shitting the bed WRT promoting human rights. The United States stumbles dick-first sometimes into insane or really dumb policies & ideas but they can occasionally be reasoned with & there are people who aren't nakedly corrupt & awful in the gov't aparatus. When/if China or any of the other usual suspects become the biggest dog on the block that goes out the window
antt 8y ago
>I get the US is not exactly the best leader in human rights, but the transgressions of another is a tu quoque logical fallacy. Holding everyone to the same standard isn't a logical fallacy, it's fairness.
krapp 8y ago
The standard for superpowers was already set by the US and USSR - if you have nuclear weapons and the ability to project military force globally, you can more or less get away with anything. I don't know about their force projection capabilities but I'm sure their nukes can reach the US, and they can definitely reach our allies, and of course Japan and Korea would just be screwed. So... maybe they'll get a stern talking to.
- will4274 8y ago
  Sure, but that doesn't mean the US has to trade with them or offer them access to its financial systems.

07d046 8y ago

I'm happy to see more headlines about this, because this doesn't seem to be getting the attention it deserves. Here is one account from a camp: > “Xi Jinping is great! The Communist Party is great! I deserve punishment for not understanding that only President Xi Jinping and the Communist Party can help me,” was one of the refrains that a Uyghur woman who was in a centre last fall, was forced to regularly repeat. > The woman, whose name is not being used by The Globe and Mail for her protection, was put through regular self-criticism sessions. Part of the content was cultural. “My soul is infected with serious diseases,” she would repeat. “There is no God. I don’t believe in God. I believe in the Communist Party.” > Other content was more explicitly political. Day after day she would say out loud that she was a traitor, a separatist and a terrorist. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-former-detainees-recount-abuse-in-chinese-re-education-centres/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-former-detaine... This story was published yesterday: > She was one of the most revered academics from the Uighur ethnic minority in far western China. She had written extensively and lectured across China and the world to explain and celebrate Uighurs’ varied traditions. Her research was funded by Chinese government ministries and praised by other scholars. > Then she disappeared. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/10/world/asia/china-xinjiang-rahile-dawut.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/10/world/asia/china-xinjiang...

Inconel 8y ago
Genuine question for someone with a better understanding of psychology, or the kind of propaganda employed by authoritarian regimes, but what purpose does this serve? I can't imagine you can actually convince someone to suddenly like the CCP or Xi Jinping through something like this. Is it simply a tool to show who's in charge?
- throwando208818 8y ago
  Bingo. In an authoritarian situation it literally doesn't matter if you believe what you're saying. You just say it to get through the day. It's not like a scifi movie where every little thing is monitored, the game is you just don't cause yourself (or perhaps more importantly your pals or family) trouble and try to "get yours" and live something resembling a decent/self-actualized life. For the regime, those kind of performative statements sets a good example & makes the problem go away

dghughes 8y ago

China has detained over three million people in an even bigger area called Tibet. A few years ago there was video of people; men, women and children desperately trying to escape over a mountain into Nepal. Long lines of people on snow mountain peaks. Chinese military snipers picked them off one by one.

est 8y ago
Use your common sense. Watch the video again. If a group of people was shot, they'd more likely to lay down immediately, not continue climbing. It's mostly likely that guy was tripped into the snow by accident.
- dnomad 8y ago
  At this point the only thing this thread actually demonstrates is the intensity and the stupidity of the latest anti-Chinese propaganda. These fact-free Two Minute Hates against the endless enemies of the West are very much not about common sense.
  - est 8y ago
    China got this on itself. Back in 2008 there are actually Chinese/Tibetans debating on this matter on the Interweb. Now all sites are blocked in China, it's one sided voice only.
- will4274 8y ago
  China admitted to killing one person (a 17 year old nun, at that) after the video evidence came out. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nangpa_La_shooting_incident https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nangpa_La_shooting_incident
  - est 8y ago
    Admitted according to wikipedia? China never admits nothing. The video is a solid evidence of one people fall down. The shooting maybe happened before or after the video.

resters 8y ago

Ironically, the "camps" alleged in the article are quite likely luxury hotels compared to Gitmo. Also, the 600K to 1M civilians killed by the US in Iraq for what could be termed (civilian casualties in the fight against religious extremism) are no longer able to tell their story to journalists. There's been a fresh wave of anti-China propaganda stories dropping this week. Reader beware.

intro-b 8y ago
at the same time, every article remotely critical of China in HN always has a squadron of comments employing whataboutism and deflection and unsubstantiated accusations of anti-China propaganda.
- resters 8y ago
  I think your view might be overly binary. This story may both be true and be propaganda. What better kind of propaganda than stuff that is actually true? What's important with propaganda is not how true it is, but the timing and the context and the reason why it is being deployed. By pointing out that this is part of a campaign, I'm not saying I disagree with the motive for the campaign or the truth claims in the stories (or that I oppose them). In my view, the mechanisms of propaganda are more interesting than the tit for tat between two morally mediocre powers.
- dnomad 8y ago
  It's not whataboutism to point out that the vast majority of anti-Chinese propaganda being posted to HN is just that. There are real problems in Xinjang. Noted Xinjang politicians and academics do disappear. China has both secret courts and preventive detention. There is real evidence of this eg [1] [2]. But we don't get articles about the actual issues. We get this sort of breathless, fact-free nonsense about millions of people disappearing into "extrajudicial camps." It has no relation to reality and exists only to push a narrative and get clicks. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/10/world/asia/china-xinjiang-rahile-dawut.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/10/world/asia/china-xinjiang... [2] https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/07/uighur-graduate-student-goes-missing-upon-returning-to-china/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/07/uighur-gradua...

simpsond 8y ago

I traveled around Xinjiang in 2010. I was in Urumqi during the one year anniversary of the 2009 Urumqi riots and there was some tensions. Armored and armed guard units were walking the streets, and the Uyghur people we talked with were very nervous. There was segregation at a business level there. The main strip for food was Uyghur on one side, Hon on the other. At the time, it seemed unsettling, but people were getting on with their lives. Looking back on it, I realize I was part of a joined agenda. We stayed in a Military hotel, and had a driver/escort who was special forces. We had to get permission to do the things we did. We wanted to stay with a Kazakh family, but were denied and told that we could stay with another Kazakh family. It was all pretty wild, and my friend kept in touch with a Uyghur we met, and she desperately wanted out of Xinjiang... and was essentially living in fear. I didn't hear about camps then, but I wouldn't put it past the government.

flyrain 8y ago
Are you talking about Xinjiang?
- arcticbull 8y ago
  That’s where Urumqi is
  - kwk1 8y ago
    I think the point of confusion was: > I traveled around Xianjian in 2010. instead of Xinjiang.
- simpsond 8y ago
  Thanks, edited.
bnolsen 8y ago
My wife's relatives were scared to death. the muslims had been allowed to carry ceremonial knives...they started using these on the han people. Also they were randomly injecting people with needles with unknown substances. No one was going out they were so scared. As of last year if you want to go grocery shopping or to any restaurant you have to have your bags xrayed and walk through a metal detector. Mind you I am no supporter of the chinese government and strongly condemn what they are doing to christians now amongst other things, but those people are doing what muslim groups do worldwide and have been causing trouble in western china for at the very least many decades.

bombless 8y ago

http://news.ifeng.com/mainland/special/xjqjdh/ http://news.ifeng.com/mainland/special/xjqjdh/ Chinese local report for those who can read Chinese and understand how you should respect jews

Karishma1234 8y ago

The interesting thing about whole this Chinese persecution of Muslims is the complete silence from their Islamic friends such as Pakistan and Saudi. I would expect America's friend Saudi to be very vocal critic of China's actions. But so far everyone has been silent.

petre 8y ago
You expect another totalitarian regime to care about people? I don't know about Pakistan, but in SA women just got the right to drive cars. In 2018.
- Karishma1234 8y ago
  > care about people? No. But I think Saudi deeply cares about Islamic demography in every country including USA. Saudi invests billions of dollars in countries like India to make sure Muslims remain radical and under the control of sharia and women on street wear hijab. In my village for example an international NGO funded by Saudi pays INR 800 ($12) to women who wear hijaab.
sumedh 8y ago
> Islamic friends such as Pakistan and Saudi. Pakistan had national election recently, the prime minister will be in office this month and I dont think the new PM will start by attacking China who they depend on to counter India.

juskrey 8y ago

Characteristically, when videos of muslims cutting christian and "wrong type" of muslim heads are openly circulating internet, UN shows no slightest concern.

ChristianBundy 8y ago
Nice post history. Please troll elsewhere.

myf01d 8y ago

I hope that I see for once before I die a single report by BBC of what Muslims from Indonesia to Mali are doing with minorities, gays, even other Muslims from different sects other than Sunnis. I hope that BBC does a single report about the extremist Muslim neighborhoods in the UK and other European countries. I hope that I can express my opinions in this website without getting massively downvoted within seconds.

thebooktocome 8y ago
What an odd thing to want to see before you die.
Zaheer 8y ago
What are you trying to achieve with that statement? Responding to an article about Muslims being persecuted with examples of some Muslims persecuting others is utterly useless. It's like responding to an article on 9/11 with examples of atrocious things the KKK has done. You're making a pathetic attempt to justify what China is doing. Downvoting you is exactly what should happen.
- myf01d 8y ago
  while I am not even white or from the west myself, but comparing 9/11 or extremist muslims with KKK is just idiotic to say the least. I am not making any justification for China btw, it's the biggest dictatorship on Earth, what do you expect?
dang 8y ago
Since you've continued to use HN for political battle just after we asked you to stop, I've banned this account. Religious flamewar is particularly unwelcome here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

anoncow201852 8y ago

Is there any other news that provides more details about who is being selected to be in these camps? Are these criminals that have broken some law and are in prison? I know 1 million seems like a huge number, but to put things in perspective, the there are over 2 million African Americans in "camps." I understand there is a huge difference and I'm not saying they are remotely the same. I've just been more careful in recent years because these same news organizations seem to downplay terrorist attacks in China [1]. 1. https://www.quora.com/Why-is-the-same-act-in-Kunming-called-a-knife-attack-but-in-London-a-terror-attack-by-the-BBC-What-is-the-reason-for-the-calls-of-knife-wielding-versus-terrorism-by-CNN https://www.quora.com/Why-is-the-same-act-in-Kunming-called-...

dang 8y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17734840 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17734840 In addition, you rewrote the title to make it more sensational and tendentious. Editorializing like that breaks the site guidelines. Please don't. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

whatyoucantsay 8y ago
The story you linked above, with over 170 upvotes and less than a day old appears nowhere on the first 5 pages of HN. It's hard to imagine HN suppressing any similar story from a similarly credible source about a million people being detained in any predominantly white or English-speaking country. There's a lot of money for YC to make in China, but this is a million human lives. Please at least try to think about that. (And yes, the story is certainly drawing flags from Chinese patriots and wumaodang alike)
- dang 8y ago
  That doesn't reflect how HN is moderated at all. Your claim about who's flagging is equally made-up. Edit: the claim in your profile is also completely untrue. In fact you have a long history of making things up about HN moderation, posting them, and continuing to repeat the false claims when corrected. You also have a long history of using HN for political battle about China. If you keep abusing the site this way, we're eventually going to ban you. Dramatic allegations about "censorship" and "suppression" don't immunize you against having to follow the rules like other users.
  - whatyoucantsay 8y ago
    The comment was specifically directed at you and it was an appeal to conscience. > "In fact you have a long history of making things up about HN moderation, posting them, and continuing to repeat the false claims when corrected." That's quite a claim. Outsiders are not privy to your moderation actions, the weighting algorithms of the site or who is flagging which stories. Conjectures about an opaque system aren't fabrications. They're good faith conjectures. What can be known is which stories have comments from mods saying they've turned off flags. Many address political and cultural issues of Silicon Valley, which is essentially the first world of the first world. > "You also have a long history of using HN for political battle about China." What I attempt to do is voice minority opinions that I believe are true. Nothing more, except a deep concern for human rights which unfortunately does tend to intersect with news about China. It's admirable to address the authoritarianism and even ethnonationalism of the US administration, as your team has. It's also absurd to simultaneously label any discussion of far more authoriarian and ethnonationalism of the CCP or others as "political battle". Absolutely nothing in my comment above was "political battle". I saw a thread about the detention of a million human beings with over 170 upvotes that was already buried in less than a day and commented. It's sad so many can be so worked up about the struggles of some of the most advantaged people in the world and yet be numb to the detention of so large a number of our human cousins while their families are forced to house government minders. Financial incentives cannot prove any wrong-doing of course, but they are corrosive. I believe the point of the previous comment likely stands, but these two questions should illuminate: 1) Has HN ever (whether through automated or other means) quickly buried any similarly popular story about people in a western country being similarly wronged at this scale? 2) Can you truthfully deny that YC has had any dealings with the Chinese government or state-owned enterprises, or has any economic incentives at stake in dealing with news the CCP doesn't like? If the answer to either is yes, I'll gladly apologize and retract the comment (but not my sympathy for the subjects of this BBC article). Edit: this comment on a week-old post, which breaks no site guidelines AFAICT, was flagged in under an hour. :/

joaomacp 8y ago

I feel like there's a tremendous influence of the Chinese government in the comments I'm seeing to this news here and on Reddit. I think that the Chinese government has control over which news go viral, as there are chinese programmers in Reddit and facebook killing unwanted posts. They work for the chinese government's interest, at the threat of having their families killed in China if they don't do so. Welcome to the 3rd World War.