10 ms·

A deeply red/Republican and relatively low-density state might seem like a strange place to find a functional public transit system. Utah is an interesting plac

A deeply red/Republican and relatively low-density state might seem like a strange place to find a functional public transit system. Utah is an interesting place. The geography of the Wasatch Front lends itself to public transit in ways that less geographically-constrained places do not. The region is mostly a north-south corridor, with occasional off-shoots to the side, which is how the transit network has developed. There is a significant tech culture, from 'little silicon slopes' in Lehi to the significant student population. The valley has seasonal pollution problems caused by mountains to the east and west. This is made worse by the lake effect, which means energy solutions helpful elsewhere are less effective, like natural gas plants. What would otherwise be transient pollutants instead react with ammonia from the lake and persist in the atmosphere, further trapped by the mountains. Utah has a significant need for public transit, and getting students connected and using it is a great way for generational change to occur. Car culture still rules, and will for a long time, but this is a good thing to hear. Hopefully a Trax expansion or equivalent in Utah county will happen eventually. Until then, this seems the next best policy.

jorblumesea 8y ago
Utah is something like 60% Mormon, and Mormons are really big on community, helping others and many other "socialist" ideas. They are conservative in many ways but progressive in some.
ngngngng 8y ago
With our air quality here, eventually can't come soon enough. I'd love to have a single family car and use public transit daily, but for right now I sacrificed that to live out in the middle of nowhere but still be able to find software jobs easily.
mmanfrin 8y ago
I thing a larger factor is the Mormon Church/Mormon population. Utah has some strangely progressive economic policies like housing-first solutions to homelessness. Utah is a red state for sure, especially when it comes to social policies, but has the 'community' orientation that another commenter mentioned that public transit falls neatly in to.
- reaperducer 8y ago
  A lot of Christians talk a big game about charity and such. But once I started becoming familiar with LDS folk, I was really impressed. They’re Christians in ways many other denominations only claim to be. KSL-TV (LDS-owned NBC station) has an AppleTV app, and watching the SLC local news is far more interesting than I thought it would be. And there’s far less needless murder and mayhem plus more “good” news than is available in my market.
  - dba7dba 8y ago
    The thing with LDS is that it's more of an organization with a strong (aka oppressive? or too powerful) leadership at top. Every adult has to go on a 'mission' for a full year? On the flip side, there is no such distinct leadership/requirements in most other Christian organizations. Pretty much anyone call self a Christian. Maybe Catholics are similar to LDS but I'm not too familiar with them.
    - rsweeney21 8y ago
      Missions are 2 years for men, 1.5 years for women. It's optional for both men and women, but men are expected to go. I went on a mission to Peru for 2 years. It was amazing, I have no regrets, but I wouldn't do it again. It was incredibly hard. In contrast, I've started two modestly successful companies (one bootstrapped, one backed by $16M in VC money) and I'm working on starting my third. Startups are grueling, but not as grueling as a mission IMO. :)
      - joeblas 8y ago
        I too went on a 2 year mission in Ohio and I second the statement that it was incredibly hard but totally worth it.
      - paulddraper 8y ago
        And the missions are served by either young adults (18-25) or retirees. I.e. at times that are minimally disruptive to careers, families, etc.
seanmcdirmid 8y ago
Salt Lake City is not a very conservative place. Yes, it is crazily Gerry mannered by pie slicing into a bunch of red congressional district, but SLC itself is fairly left of center just like any other big city in the west.
- uxp 8y ago
  You're correct, however this article is about transportation in Utah County, aka Happy Valley.
david-cako 8y ago
Mormons are the kindest and hardest working people in the country. They understand taking care of each other in ways no one else seems to, and I think that is most of the reason why Utah is so functional. Christians that actually act what they speak in nearly every way. An aside, smog is really bad in Salt Lake due to its geography and that is probably one of the reasons they are taking this so seriously.
- vlunkr 8y ago
  I’m happy to see so many positive comments about Mormons here. I usually don’t mention that I’m Mormon in online forums since I see mostly negativity about the church. (It’s just me being self-conscious) We’re certainly not perfect but we do try to look out our neighbors, I’m glad that’s recognized on the outside as well.
  - crispinb 8y ago
    People live so much of their life in virtual worlds of media & thought that they confuse them with reality. So people will decide that they dislike Mormons (because everyone knows theism is dumb and antiscientific) or Muslims (because they're all terrorists), despite never having truly met any, having zero knowledge of their history, etc. The negative reactions you speak of aren't about Mormons or the church, they're about figments of sequestered imaginations, unconstrained by reality. It's a shame. Real life is so much richer. In my real life I've often come across Mormon missionaries (in the past knocking at my door - not sure if they still do this?), and despite radical differences in view, have mostly had warm & engaging interactions.
    - forapurpose 8y ago
      Very well said, thank you; and of course it applies to almost every prejudice. It is indeed a shame.
  - Fezzik 8y ago
    (As an Atheist) It bothers me to no end the amount of negativity that gets heaped on Mormons. From their immense early persecution[0] to being regularly ridiculed today, as a people they remain some of the kindest, most open-hearted, hard working people I know. And the sense of community that is stoked by them is tremendous. Sure, we all have issues, but as a group they are darn supportive of both each other and their communities. I, for one, admire that. [0] read No Man Knows My History, for an historical perspective.
duxup 8y ago
It's frustrating that transportation is such a target by Republicans. I can't see much reason for it but clearly it is some sort of "thing" where lately it is emphasized heavily to disrupt or target transportation systems for defunding.
tntn 8y ago
> caused by mountains to the east and the west And very lax emissions regulations and oil refineries in the middle of everything.
- AnimalMuppet 8y ago
  You should have seen it in the 1970s, before they cleaned up the Kennicott smelter. There were days when, from the east bench, it looked like you could walk across the top of the inversion to the Oquirrh Mountains.
hueving 8y ago
>A deeply red/Republican and relatively low-density state might seem like a strange place to find a functional public transit system. Only if you buy the strawmen of politics in the US of there being two 'sides' with everyone neatly falling into place on a pathetic line. The further you get away from the shithole that is the US federal government, the more this becomes apparent. The things each 'side' is supposed to support completely changes at the state levels and varies from state to state. The best thing you can do is dispose of the notion of a single political spectrum and you will be a lot less shocked when you encounter something contrary to the propaganda designed to divide people.
- dgzl 8y ago
  I'm under the impression that the federal government knows this and actively tries to keep the population ignorant if their individual personalities. In America's violent culture, people see a massive red vs. blue battle and can't help but take a side.
  - blitmap 8y ago
    Silver lining: We're united against those other people, lol. By politicians encouraging a divided, polarized atmosphere they've created a largely 2-party system (instead of a many-party system).
  - swebs 8y ago
    I'd say it's more due to human nature to break complicated issues down to one dimension. Cameras have megapixels, computers have Flops, countries have some sort of "index" depending on what facet you're looking at, and politics has a single left/right value. Of course it's not very accurate, but that's the idea that's easiest to consume, and thus the one that propagates the most. The 2-dimensional Political Compass is a huge improvement, but still isn't perfect. Reality is more complex and would require an N-dimensional political matrix. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_compass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_compass
    - justdeleteKanab 8y ago
ptero 8y ago
> A deeply red/Republican and relatively low-density state might seem like a strange place to find a functional public transit system. I do not see it this way. Communities with shared values (republican or democratic), usually find it easier to agree on and build public services that they find useful. Getting efficient, inexpensive transport that does not cost too much to the state is pretty easy to justify. By the same token, most Republicans know that they will eventually get old, likely sick and finally die; thus they are not opposed to public healthcare as long as it is efficient and does not overburden public finances. However, they think (with some justification given past national federal projects) that if the US Federal government designs such a system it will be an inefficient and super costly monster pandering to special interests. And they are dead set against it.
- cbluth 8y ago
  > if the US Federal government designs such a system it will be an inefficient and super costly monster pandering to special interests I think you described every government project to date.
  - ptero 8y ago
    And my point is that communities can do better. Small communities such as condo complexes collect and use money (often after a good yellout) for things that residents want (walkways, tennis courts, pools, shuttle buses, etc.) without mega waste. The key property of this is that the costs are clear and must be paid directly by those who voted for a new functionality. LDS may be the glue that allows something similar at the city/state level in Utah.
- KallDrexx 8y ago
  > By the same token, most Republicans know that they will eventually get old, likely sick and finally die; thus they are not opposed to public healthcare as long as it is efficient and does not overburden public finances. However, they think (with some justification given past national federal projects) that if the US Federal government designs such a system it will be an inefficient and super costly monster pandering to special interests. And they are dead set against it. That's a pretty laughable statement. Tons of local government (town, city, state) projects are just as much (or more) over budget with massive special interest pandering as well. The Federal government is not unique in this aspect.
bcatanzaro 8y ago
Utah is actually one of the most urban states in the country - this 2012 article explains that 90% of Utah’s people live on 1% of the land. Within Utah’s urban areas, population density is in the top 10 in the United States at 2737 people per square mile. Although I’d love to see some updated numbers, there has been a lot of sprawl since 2012. http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=53794385&itype=cmsid http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=53794385&itype=cmsi... It’s true that the state is empty, but it’s actually a better candidate for transit than one would think, because the Wasatch Front, where 2M people live, is small geographically.
DamnInteresting 8y ago
> Hopefully a Trax expansion or equivalent in Utah county will happen eventually. In Orem (Utah County) the city is building dedicated bus lanes in the center of University Parkway; my guess is that this is a precursor to Trax rails down the line (so to speak).
adventured 8y ago
> A deeply red/Republican and relatively low-density state might seem like a strange place to find a functional public transit system. To add to the list, Texas is going to be the first state in the US to have a proper high-speed rail system, and it's actually going to be very affordable to build.

jorblumesea 8y ago

Utah is something like 60% Mormon, and Mormons are really big on community, helping others and many other "socialist" ideas. They are conservative in many ways but progressive in some.

ngngngng 8y ago

With our air quality here, eventually can't come soon enough. I'd love to have a single family car and use public transit daily, but for right now I sacrificed that to live out in the middle of nowhere but still be able to find software jobs easily.

mmanfrin 8y ago

I thing a larger factor is the Mormon Church/Mormon population. Utah has some strangely progressive economic policies like housing-first solutions to homelessness. Utah is a red state for sure, especially when it comes to social policies, but has the 'community' orientation that another commenter mentioned that public transit falls neatly in to.

reaperducer 8y ago
A lot of Christians talk a big game about charity and such. But once I started becoming familiar with LDS folk, I was really impressed. They’re Christians in ways many other denominations only claim to be. KSL-TV (LDS-owned NBC station) has an AppleTV app, and watching the SLC local news is far more interesting than I thought it would be. And there’s far less needless murder and mayhem plus more “good” news than is available in my market.
- dba7dba 8y ago
  The thing with LDS is that it's more of an organization with a strong (aka oppressive? or too powerful) leadership at top. Every adult has to go on a 'mission' for a full year? On the flip side, there is no such distinct leadership/requirements in most other Christian organizations. Pretty much anyone call self a Christian. Maybe Catholics are similar to LDS but I'm not too familiar with them.
  - rsweeney21 8y ago
    Missions are 2 years for men, 1.5 years for women. It's optional for both men and women, but men are expected to go. I went on a mission to Peru for 2 years. It was amazing, I have no regrets, but I wouldn't do it again. It was incredibly hard. In contrast, I've started two modestly successful companies (one bootstrapped, one backed by $16M in VC money) and I'm working on starting my third. Startups are grueling, but not as grueling as a mission IMO. :)
    - joeblas 8y ago
      I too went on a 2 year mission in Ohio and I second the statement that it was incredibly hard but totally worth it.
    - paulddraper 8y ago
      And the missions are served by either young adults (18-25) or retirees. I.e. at times that are minimally disruptive to careers, families, etc.

seanmcdirmid 8y ago

Salt Lake City is not a very conservative place. Yes, it is crazily Gerry mannered by pie slicing into a bunch of red congressional district, but SLC itself is fairly left of center just like any other big city in the west.

uxp 8y ago
You're correct, however this article is about transportation in Utah County, aka Happy Valley.

david-cako 8y ago

Mormons are the kindest and hardest working people in the country. They understand taking care of each other in ways no one else seems to, and I think that is most of the reason why Utah is so functional. Christians that actually act what they speak in nearly every way. An aside, smog is really bad in Salt Lake due to its geography and that is probably one of the reasons they are taking this so seriously.

vlunkr 8y ago
I’m happy to see so many positive comments about Mormons here. I usually don’t mention that I’m Mormon in online forums since I see mostly negativity about the church. (It’s just me being self-conscious) We’re certainly not perfect but we do try to look out our neighbors, I’m glad that’s recognized on the outside as well.
- crispinb 8y ago
  People live so much of their life in virtual worlds of media & thought that they confuse them with reality. So people will decide that they dislike Mormons (because everyone knows theism is dumb and antiscientific) or Muslims (because they're all terrorists), despite never having truly met any, having zero knowledge of their history, etc. The negative reactions you speak of aren't about Mormons or the church, they're about figments of sequestered imaginations, unconstrained by reality. It's a shame. Real life is so much richer. In my real life I've often come across Mormon missionaries (in the past knocking at my door - not sure if they still do this?), and despite radical differences in view, have mostly had warm & engaging interactions.
  - forapurpose 8y ago
    Very well said, thank you; and of course it applies to almost every prejudice. It is indeed a shame.
- Fezzik 8y ago
  (As an Atheist) It bothers me to no end the amount of negativity that gets heaped on Mormons. From their immense early persecution[0] to being regularly ridiculed today, as a people they remain some of the kindest, most open-hearted, hard working people I know. And the sense of community that is stoked by them is tremendous. Sure, we all have issues, but as a group they are darn supportive of both each other and their communities. I, for one, admire that. [0] read No Man Knows My History, for an historical perspective.

duxup 8y ago

It's frustrating that transportation is such a target by Republicans. I can't see much reason for it but clearly it is some sort of "thing" where lately it is emphasized heavily to disrupt or target transportation systems for defunding.

tntn 8y ago

> caused by mountains to the east and the west And very lax emissions regulations and oil refineries in the middle of everything.

AnimalMuppet 8y ago
You should have seen it in the 1970s, before they cleaned up the Kennicott smelter. There were days when, from the east bench, it looked like you could walk across the top of the inversion to the Oquirrh Mountains.

hueving 8y ago

>A deeply red/Republican and relatively low-density state might seem like a strange place to find a functional public transit system. Only if you buy the strawmen of politics in the US of there being two 'sides' with everyone neatly falling into place on a pathetic line. The further you get away from the shithole that is the US federal government, the more this becomes apparent. The things each 'side' is supposed to support completely changes at the state levels and varies from state to state. The best thing you can do is dispose of the notion of a single political spectrum and you will be a lot less shocked when you encounter something contrary to the propaganda designed to divide people.

dgzl 8y ago
I'm under the impression that the federal government knows this and actively tries to keep the population ignorant if their individual personalities. In America's violent culture, people see a massive red vs. blue battle and can't help but take a side.
- blitmap 8y ago
  Silver lining: We're united against those other people, lol. By politicians encouraging a divided, polarized atmosphere they've created a largely 2-party system (instead of a many-party system).
- swebs 8y ago
  I'd say it's more due to human nature to break complicated issues down to one dimension. Cameras have megapixels, computers have Flops, countries have some sort of "index" depending on what facet you're looking at, and politics has a single left/right value. Of course it's not very accurate, but that's the idea that's easiest to consume, and thus the one that propagates the most. The 2-dimensional Political Compass is a huge improvement, but still isn't perfect. Reality is more complex and would require an N-dimensional political matrix. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_compass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_compass
  - justdeleteKanab 8y ago

ptero 8y ago

> A deeply red/Republican and relatively low-density state might seem like a strange place to find a functional public transit system. I do not see it this way. Communities with shared values (republican or democratic), usually find it easier to agree on and build public services that they find useful. Getting efficient, inexpensive transport that does not cost too much to the state is pretty easy to justify. By the same token, most Republicans know that they will eventually get old, likely sick and finally die; thus they are not opposed to public healthcare as long as it is efficient and does not overburden public finances. However, they think (with some justification given past national federal projects) that if the US Federal government designs such a system it will be an inefficient and super costly monster pandering to special interests. And they are dead set against it.

cbluth 8y ago
> if the US Federal government designs such a system it will be an inefficient and super costly monster pandering to special interests I think you described every government project to date.
- ptero 8y ago
  And my point is that communities can do better. Small communities such as condo complexes collect and use money (often after a good yellout) for things that residents want (walkways, tennis courts, pools, shuttle buses, etc.) without mega waste. The key property of this is that the costs are clear and must be paid directly by those who voted for a new functionality. LDS may be the glue that allows something similar at the city/state level in Utah.
KallDrexx 8y ago
> By the same token, most Republicans know that they will eventually get old, likely sick and finally die; thus they are not opposed to public healthcare as long as it is efficient and does not overburden public finances. However, they think (with some justification given past national federal projects) that if the US Federal government designs such a system it will be an inefficient and super costly monster pandering to special interests. And they are dead set against it. That's a pretty laughable statement. Tons of local government (town, city, state) projects are just as much (or more) over budget with massive special interest pandering as well. The Federal government is not unique in this aspect.

bcatanzaro 8y ago

Utah is actually one of the most urban states in the country - this 2012 article explains that 90% of Utah’s people live on 1% of the land. Within Utah’s urban areas, population density is in the top 10 in the United States at 2737 people per square mile. Although I’d love to see some updated numbers, there has been a lot of sprawl since 2012. http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=53794385&itype=cmsid http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=53794385&itype=cmsi... It’s true that the state is empty, but it’s actually a better candidate for transit than one would think, because the Wasatch Front, where 2M people live, is small geographically.

DamnInteresting 8y ago

> Hopefully a Trax expansion or equivalent in Utah county will happen eventually. In Orem (Utah County) the city is building dedicated bus lanes in the center of University Parkway; my guess is that this is a precursor to Trax rails down the line (so to speak).

adventured 8y ago

> A deeply red/Republican and relatively low-density state might seem like a strange place to find a functional public transit system. To add to the list, Texas is going to be the first state in the US to have a proper high-speed rail system, and it's actually going to be very affordable to build.