19 ms·
GE Engineer Linked to China Stole Power Plant Technology, FBI Says
- lettergram 8y agoI'm sorry, but China has been a pro at stealing IP from the West. I'm actually with Trump on this one (gasp) - but I think it needs to go one step further and actually drop trade all together. Fact is, China straight up has people from the government who sit in factories reverse engineering the stuff that's built. The Chinese government (after it's been reverse engineered) helps support competitive businesses, then locks out the U.S. or other Western competitors (as it's in the national interest). It's insane that the west has put up with this, because it's literally going to cripple the west in the long run. Regarding this case, it's espionage essentially... But not really supprising given the prior events.
- anonymous5133 8y agoExactly. None need look further than the story of american superconductor. American superconductor made wind turbine control systems. They partnered with a Chinese company called sinovel who made the turbines. Eventually some Chinese engineer stole the company's software and gave it to the company. The Chinese company canceled the contract with american superconductor and then used the stolen IP to continue business as usual. American superconductor was nearly bankrupted in the process. Free trade only works if you have fair trade, otherwise it is every man for themselves. Trump knows that trade with China is rigged so there is no point in having free trade with them. Most people who complain about Trump playing hardball with China are very uninformed about the reality of the situation. China is getting ready to gut the US economy from the inside out. China will make sure it never has a trade deficit with the USA. They will buy some of our stuff but only if they have a trade surplus.
- toomuchtodo 8y agoIt’s extremely unfortunate that we’re having to take the painful tariff route, and while Trump is not stately in his handling of the situation, it’ll be a valuable lesson to China if the US can push their overleverged economy into recession with escalating tariffs (as it’s clear they’ll continue their advancement through the theft of Western technology).
- frockington 8y agoYesterday China fell back to having the #3 largest stock exchange. With US success other countries might start piling on soon, hopefully China will take action before that happens though, it could get really ugly really quick for them
- pishpash 8y agoI think you'd be waiting a long time, and it won't be ugly just for them.
- Fricken 8y agoKnowledge wants to be free. Adam Smith considered IP laws to be an unnecessary evil. The Chinese are just being good capitalists. American Superconductor nearly went bankrupt because they couldn't compete on a level playing field. https://youtu.be/axXTMUmTOyE https://youtu.be/axXTMUmTOyE
- alehul 8y agoDo you believe that, without IP law, we'd still have companies invest the amounts they do into creating new technology (particularly in high R&D areas like pharma)?
- baybal2 8y agoPfffff, just not pharma. A lion share of genuine new pharmaceutical research is done by underpaid undergrad mules in sweatshops called "captive R&D centres" in places like China and India, that the reality.
- Andhurati 8y agoIsn't most research done in government labs or universities? Innovation is great but it's mostly a buzzword to describe the aformentioned research in commercial areas
- adventured 8y agoNo. The US Government is 18%-20% of all R&D spending in the US. A lot of that is in the military budget of course. Which makes perfect sense when you consider the size of the private economy versus the share of government spending that could reasonably go to R&D (versus entitlements, military, infrastructure, etc). Private corporations are around ~$400 billion of the ~$550 billion per year spent in the US on R&D. The government R&D figure as a share is higher in the EU than in the US, but not dramatically so. The private sector is simply too large by comparison and can focus its resources more narrowly on things like R&D than what a government could be expected to.
- 8y ago
- pishpash 8y agoYou're highly misinformed. Trump never cared about the IP angle, only deficits. The IP angle came out of a report that was long in the works. Furthermore it doesn't make sense to talk about bilateral trade figures. China has basically balanced trade with the world because it sources inputs from abroad. That's also without talking about the services trade of which China buys a great deal from us.
- oh_sigh 8y agoIsn't this what the WTO is for?
- baybal2 8y agoFunny thing to mention, I think 95% of industrial espionage effort yields zero if not negative benefit. The problem is that you are always stealing a "cat in a bag" For machinery, rarely there is anything like a "secret sauce:" Soon after the fall of USSR, Chinese defence companies flocked to Russia buying every defence tech possible. Russian companies had a funny way to troll Chicoms: they will not sell them a simple, mid-tier equipment, but only the top notch, and most complicated one, with which even they themselves had problem dealing. For example, Soyuz transferred tech for their super expensive, small volume manufactured R179 engine. Yes, that was Soviet response to F135 class engines. The showstopper was its very high temperature turbine made with monocrystaline blades grown in situ within (!) a ceramic fibre reinforcing mesh. Even with all blueprints, documentation of manufacturing processes, and working samples on their hands, Chinese never made a single working engine. That state program to copy R179 continues to this day as I know. And I think they spent way more money on it in 25 years, than if they were to create a thing from scratch. That is something obvious to every experienced engineer, but not to bureaucrats from Chinese three letter agencies who are convinced that they are just an inch away from some "secret trick" that will magically make everything work.
- creddit 8y ago"I think 95% of industrial espionage effort yields zero if not negative benefit" Citation needed. That makes extremely little sense.
- baybal2 8y agoWhy? I think it's quite clear, to know what valuable knowhow to steal, you have to know quite a bit about the subject as well. After doing that much research, it may well be that you know enough to do it on your own.
- wadkar 8y agoYou need to provide evidence for your claims, specially more if you’re going to trow around numbers. For example why 95%? Why not 5%? Or why not 80%? Please understand that unsubstantiated comments are not constructive for a fruitful discussion. Take a look at the HN guidelines for more information.
- pjc50 8y ago> drop trade all together Are people prepared to give up their iPhones? Actually, never mind that, are they prepared to give up Taiwan?
- varjag 8y agoThey are prepared to give up Taiwan more than their iPhones anyway. Not that China has a very good shot at it.
- HillaryBriss 8y agoI tend to be sympathetic to your views, but I recently heard a different take on this whole IP / Copyright theft matter and I'm not sure what to make of it: 1. US residents and workers own pretty much zero IP/Copyrights themselves and basically zero stock in companies that own IP/Copyrights. 2. Therefore, forcing Chinese companies and consumers to "pay up" for IP and Copyrights really only benefits US companies and wealthy stockholders (not US consumers and workers). 3. If there no charge at all for this stolen IP, Chinese companies would be able to offer cheaper exported products to US workers and consumers, who would actually benefit more from the lower prices than from protecting the IP in the first place. 4. Furthermore, if US company products (e.g. Microsoft Windows) are pirated in China, it leaves the Chinese consumer with more dollars to buy other US imported goods which are not IP-focused (e.g. soybeans or almonds or wine or something) thus benefiting the average US consumer and worker more.
- afpx 8y agoAgreed. Here’s a personal example from about 10 years ago. Imagine that you spend several years inventing something new. You put in the sweat equity and take on opportunity costs. Then, your product seems to be ready. You’re very excited, so you decide to release it to the public at a popular trade show. On the first day, you meet lots of interested people. Some are American, some European. Oh, and several large gatherings of Chinese people also approach your booth. They admire your invention, too. But, look, and they brought along cameras, video recorders, a few people taking notes. Your heart sinks a bit. Are they really blatantly stealing your idea with no shame? You don’t know. Then, a few months later an (inferior) but visually identical product enters the market. Then a couple more appear. They’re all priced at a fraction of the price of yours... That was the reality a decade or two ago. Maybe it has gotten better. But, things like that have a tendency to make long impressions on the memory. My question is: does this happen in China? Do Chinese companies steal from other Chinese companies? Is it normal for Chinese people to steal from their friends, family, neighbors? Or, is this behavior only directed at the West?
- jfoutz 8y agoModern day Slater. Good for them. The overall situation annoys me, but congratulations to the person.
- neya 8y agoIf you look into the story of American Superconductor, Sanyo Shinkansen, Apple's self driving car project and now, GE..it's all similar. It's their culture, they don't believe in attribution nor fair trade, they're used to growing up in a red ocean. That's the way they are. I work with Chinese companies on a regular basis, I never give them access to my repos, always uglify my JS code, and ensure strict rate limits for anything other than my office's IP address and carefully monitor access logs from their IPs and always implement kill switches in my software. I know what I'm doing isn't going to stop them if they wanted to, but for most part, it keeps them at bay. Just watch out if you work in an industry where your IP is everything.
- baxtr 8y agoRemember a German car manufacturer ripping a Tesla into parts? https://jalopnik.com/mercedes-parent-company-daimler-dismantled-a-rented-tes-1820961392 https://jalopnik.com/mercedes-parent-company-daimler-dismant...
- andromeduck 8y agoSo what? Reverse engineering and competitive analysis is common practice and entirely above board.
- baxtr 8y agoI just think “culture” is a strong word to be used in that situation. I guess I believe it’s human to act like that and it depends on your competitive situation how you view the rightfulness of it
- askaboutit 8y agoExactly. Reverse engineering to better understand how to design and manufacture a competing product with very different mechanics is ok. But there are cars in china that are one for one copies of major brands. They’re everywhere.
- yourapostasy 8y ago
- zealsham 8y agoWhy is the act usually perpetuated against the US. China trades with other countries but rarely you hear news of China stealing their tech. Why does China strive to a great deal to steal tech from the US
- natch 8y agoThere is a lot of bitterness toward the US in China possibly stemming from their perception that they should be leading the world in every respect, and the irksome reality that for much of the past century or more the US has been at the forefront. Yes that is changing or has already changed now, but they are still very unhappy about having been behind for so long, given their rightful place as the superior (in their mind) civilization. Yeah our (US) civilization has plenty of flaws, I'm not meaning to suggest otherwise. Just saying since you asked, if it seems they are targeting the US a lot, this could be part of it. Plus the obvious fact that the US is the biggest and softest target.
- baybal2 8y agoA simple explanation: In China, the manager class, the bureaucrat class have an opinion of their own people as worthless. They don't believe that a Chinese engineer can make a widget better than an American engineer, because they think there is something inherently wrong with everything Chinese. In their disturbed minds, they think if everything Chinese is bad, this also makes them bad too. Thus, they make themselves appear as un-Chinese as possible: See, the only place in the world where American car brands making "falling apart as you drive" cars made a dent in the market is China! In reality though, this conduct of theirs, acquiring material attributes of "Americanness" themselves, is just a psychological compensation. I'm not trying to insult anybody here. This is my observation from working in trade with China for 10 years, and living there for 3 years. What needs to be fixed, is the toxic "Laoban" culture, an "old boys club" of inept, privileged, people currently running China. A real world example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16217995 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16217995
- yourapostasy 8y ago
- noiterme 8y agoI am a Chinese and I am not comfortable with most of comments here. But I see lots of places that China companies can do much better though. I see people are growing awareness of IP or copyright, I hope these companies can do just better.
- askaboutit 8y agoThere is a whole society ingrained in “copying”. Mainland Chinese don’t see IP theft as theft. They see it as simply “copying”. It’s ok to copy. But not to steal right? So just preach that it’s ok by changing the view. Then allow copying to happen endlessly without retribution because without it. The economy is done.
- filmor 8y agoWell, it is not theft. Theft means that what you are stealing is not there anymore afterwards. Like actually stealing (unique) plans. Not saying that copying is actually okay, but using more sensational terminology is not really helping. Same thing is going on with "piracy", in Germany they actually coined the term "Raubkopie" (robbed copy) which implies that a copy is taken by violent force.
- askaboutit 8y agoWhat about theft of revenue, profits, money spent on new R&D because there is a company or government willing to copy your idea and subsidize its development heavily as to maximise their economic growth. It’s theft. Handbags to manufacturing techniques. Source code to schematics. Science to business models. It’s all meant to prop up local business. Pin duo duo just had their IPO. Now there’s so many fakes and copies that no one knows what’s real on their anymore. Didi vs Uber is a great example. Didi copied the idea, took government subsidies. But then the government stole the competition completely by shutting down Uber and forcing a merger with Didi.
- filmor 8y agoYou can't just redefine "theft" as "deprive of potential earnings/subsidies", watering down definitions is helping no one. I agree that the depriving is what is happening here by copying but this is what shouls be called out then, not a made-up theft.
- grecy 8y agoGiven there are ~7.5 billion people on Earth, and given we're getting more interconnected every single day, and given there is more "stuff" being invented every single day, at what point will we just assume this kind of stuff is commonplace and it won't make the news anymore? In the same way a lot of forward-looking people are seeing a future were full-time work will have to be replaced by some form of Universal Basic Income, I wonder when we'll realize the whole IP / Copyright / "It's mine, you can't have it" mentality will have to be replaced.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- tomp 8y agoThat is an awesome thought, but for the moment, China's playing an incredibly unfair game - they're stealing Western technology, while at the same time preventing Western companies from accessing the Chinese market. I mean, looks like it worked out great for them. I'm just not sure why Western governments don't retaliate, e.g. by taxing Chinese exports and investments (i.e. similar to what Trump is trying to do now, but more targeted - e.g. specifically target companies that have stolen IP)
- lurker456 8y agoFor the same reasons the european powers were unable to prevent IP theft by the US earlier in history - not enough reach and power.
- Theodores 8y agoFor the same reasons that the Chinese were unable to prevent IP theft by the Europeans earlier in history - not enough reach and power. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Great_Inventions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Great_Inventions (Silk can be added to the the list, after all it was called the 'Silk Road' for good reason. The Four Great Inventions were helpful for the development of European states and the bureaucracy required.)
- 07d046 8y agoThe interesting part, other than fitting into the "Chinese IP theft" narrative, is that: > [He] removed electronic files with company trade secrets involving its turbine technologies and hid data files in a digital photograph of a sunset. Prosecutors say he then emailed the picture to his email account. https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2018/08/01/us/ap-us-general-electric-investigation.html https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2018/08/01/us/ap-us-general... Edit: Thanks for the downvotes?
- faitswulff 8y agoSounds like steganography: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steganography https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steganography
- autoon 8y agoThere are lots of bias in the comments. Some blame culture, which is wrong. This is a simple case, just like Uber waymo lawsuit. https://www.wired.com/story/uber-waymo-lawsuit-settlement/ https://www.wired.com/story/uber-waymo-lawsuit-settlement/ Lots of Chinese companies don't steal IP and invest heavily in R&D, and they want to contribute. On Github, many contributors are from China.
- seanmcdirmid 8y agoChina has very strategic reasons to catch up in jet turbines (semiconductors is the other one), so a lot of state money and resources are directed their. Software IP is also a problem, but it is much easier to reverse engineer or simply replicate the research (all published, open source, etc...) that IP theft isn’t very necessary. They aren’t closely guarded state secrets like jet turbine production is.
- autoon 8y agoI think your conclusion is too broad. There is difference between China Government and general Chinese. I don't believe every Chinese companies want to steal from others. When you draw a conclusion, you need to distinguish facts and thinking.
- shrewduser 8y agocompanies that use stolen tech should just not be allowed to sell to WTO countries
- varjag 8y agoThe world would be in a much better place if global organizations (WTO, EU, NATO..) simply enforced their own charters.
- tptptptptptp 8y agoHere's an idea: EU, US, and Japan should slap a 50% tariff on all Chinese goods (made in China, or from Chinese companies). You're stealing our techs to sell products back to our markets? We're punishing you with a 50% cut first.
- TeMPOraL 8y agoAnd then China will reply - "with a couple of recent exceptions, we ain't selling back shit - it's your companies who pay us to manufacture stuff for you, and then they sell that stuff to you for 400% the price".
- tptptptptptp 8y agoAnd then the rest of SE Asia will reply "we'll gladly take all the manufacturing from China" And then EU, US, and Japan says "we better speed up moving out of China". And China was never heard of again.
- TeMPOraL 8y agoAnd then the rest of SE Asia will say, "oooh, juicy IP coming our way, just asking to be copied!".
- neonate 8y agohttp://archive.is/eOdFv http://archive.is/eOdFv
- sneak 8y agoI wonder when we as a human society can get past this silly nationalistic idea that one can steal information or technological ideas or designs. The entire concept of intellectual property is a hack to prop up industry revenues; it is not reality. The free flow of information and discoveries is essential to the advancement of the human condition. It’s sad that more often than not, chinese hackers get this and US hackers do not.
- pweissbrod 8y agoThere's a significant cost covered by the inventor as they carry the burden of trial and error which comes with developing something novel/pioneering. Now, in the bigger picture, I agree with you that sharing knowledge and innovation benefits the greater good over longer term. But the thing is, if you copy these novel inventions in secret, close up access to anyone else being able to benefit and establish trade embargoes then its more like stealing than copying. It's sort of like if Aaron Schwartz sold books to private buyers instead of open sourcing them.
- frockington 8y agoWithout patents, pharmaceutical companies would cease to do research. Its not feasible in some sectors to do research if someone else can copy it with none of the cost
- pishpash 8y agoThere is no indication that this GE technology is patent protected. With private "trade secrets" which can be kept wrapped indefinitely, the public never gets the benefit of disclosure while incurring the cost of monopoly. There is an argument to be made for non-patent trade secrets being an overall negative.
- frockington 8y agoThat's a fair point. I wonder if the US Government would let them patent military trade secrets
- 8y ago
- Leary 8y agoHopefully this discovery will help GE turn around its business
- shameonyou 8y agolemme write an urban. don't mention concentration camps that would be uncouth let's all give a hand to the fucking Hitler Youth carefully formed and finely selected ex- pressions like Eichmann marks on the forehead in soul-view-only ink that don't show in mirrors that'll be your Nazistern in the Bear Jew era you built that shit all of it on sand and bones that's the watershed that separates our final homes no one's so small that if you sweep them 'neath the rug it won't come back to bite you you cowardly fuck upload your brain extend the age of your ass won't change a thing what you sow comes to pass there is no escaping the person you become they were locked up and killed you went out and had fun every bite you swallowed smoothly cuz you got no conscience will be at the trial to indict you and your friends
- nabla9 8y agoIP theft by spies just like piracy but between businesses and governments. Governments business should try to keep secrets as much as they can, of course, but losing secrets is rarely net negative globally.
- autoon 8y agoThere are lots of bias in the comments. Some blame culture, which is wrong. This is a simple case, just like Uber waymo lawsuit. https://www.wired.com/story/uber-waymo-lawsuit-settlement/ https://www.wired.com/story/uber-waymo-lawsuit-settlement/ Lots of Chinese companies don't steal IP and invest heavily in R&D, and they want to contribute. On Github, many contributors are from China.
- yhoneycomb 8y ago>Xiaoqing Zheng (JOW'-shing zehng) this pronunciation is so off it offends me
- macintux 8y agoFeel free to correct it for those of us who don't have a clue.
- yhoneycomb 8y agoSure thing Should be pronounced like this: Shiao - Ching - Zheng Shiao is pronounced like "shout" without the t, or "ow" (like you hurt yourself) with an sh in front of it Ching is pretty self-explanatory. Rhymes with sing, but starts with ch. Zheng is harder to describe. It's similar to "zing" but instead think "zeng" (with the e pronounced like the e in end). Now, to pronounce the "zh" sound try to pronounce "it's" but stop yourself at the interface between the t and the s. That is about the sound that you should be making. Don't make the sssss sound either. It's more of a z sound. Like if you saying "zzzzz" and then moved your tongue back a bit.
- Shorel 8y agoThere's an alphabet for this: http://www.internationalphoneticalphabet.org/ipa-sounds/ipa-chart-with-sounds/ http://www.internationalphoneticalphabet.org/ipa-sounds/ipa-... Based on your description: ʃaʊ - ʨ̑ɪŋ - ʒɛ̃ŋ
- nick0garvey 8y agoYou described the z initial, not the zh initial. zh is very similar to the English j. "Sheow Ching Jung" is a better approximation.
- yhoneycomb 8y ago>zh is very similar to the English j. I strongly disagree... what makes you say that, Nick Garvey?
- Proven 8y agoI am shocked
- brtknr 8y agoWhy does this remind me so much of displacement of indigenous people of the Americas where the oppressors rarely acknowledge the pain of the oppressed but with the tables turned, there is so much outcry... Suppose there is a valuable lesson to be learnt. Theft, no matter how it manifests, causes distress.
- breakingcups 8y agoI have no idea what point you are trying to make. Could you please elaborate, what exactly is the link between digital industrial espionage and the fate of the indigenous people of the Americas besides a very broad use of the generic term 'theft'?
- FruityFarm 8y agoTo the victor goes the spoils regardless of morality.
- dmvinson 8y agoIn 2014, GE’s corporate security learned that Mr. Zheng had copied more than 19,000 files from a GE-owned computer to an external storage device, according to the FBI affidavit. In late 2017, GE discovered he had saved about 400 files on his desktop computer using encryption software not used by the company. I don't understand why GE would keep him employed after the first offense. Can someone who understands corporate bureaucracy explain this? Especially knowing that he was literally running a competing business in China while employed at GE.
- ghein 8y agoSometimes you catch a spy, fire them, and have them arrested. Sometimes you identify, feed them false information, and watch who they talk to... Sometimes you screw up. There can be good reasons for GE/FBI/CIA to let a spy keep their job.
- barrow-rider 8y agoFor example, Line X and the Farewell Dossier: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farewell_Dossier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farewell_Dossier
- seren 8y ago> In late 2017, GE discovered he had saved about 400 files on his desktop computer using encryption software not used by the company Encrypting personal file on your laptop is probably an improper use of the company resources. But this might not be necessarily criminal. What if the guy had only encrypted his vacation pictures ? However, you can not just go and say "Hey can you decrypt these files for us" because he will understand he got caught and can argue that he encrypted them but that was for additional safety, and it did not send or sold them. So you want to caught him sending the data out of the company to be sure to indict/convict him. And that's what they did.
- onetimemanytime 8y agoBut this might not be necessarily criminal. What if the guy has only encrypted his vacation pictures ? Fire-able offense as the laptop was company owned and such behavior sets all alarms. Once fired, they get to look at your history... Let's admit that when dealing with IP worth tens of billions different procedures are in place, and the burden of proof for being fired /investigated is much, much lower than "beyond reasonable doubt" used to jail you.
- throwaway18923 8y agoGoing to use a throwaway here as I'm afraid of professional repercussions, despite being from the "land of the free." Reading the comments here are just so funny. Why is it whenever a Chinese person does something, or rather an "Asian person," it must be attributed to their culture? Do Chinese people not have personal traits? Could this guy just not be greedy? There are 1.4 billion Chinese people. The ones that come to the US are over achievers. It should not be surprising in a group of over achievers to have a high percentage of greedy and opportunistic people. Recently Ron Rockwell Hansen was arrested for spying for China. I wonder what type of cultural norms caused him to do so?
- throwaway234970 8y agoAlso posting as a throwaway for similar reasons. This comment brings up a valid point. When I was working in academia, a lab from $large_and_famous_west_coast_university copied some code from a set of open source scripts from another lab in my field on Github, erased the Git history, and then created a new repo with a footnote in passing that they had been "inspired" by the original scripts- pretty much a textbook case of plagiarism. No one involved was Chinese (most were actually white male Europeans). In general, high profile researchers take incredibly morally repugnant / unethical actions to get ahead.
- philipodonnell 8y agoNot using a throwaway but isn't there a difference between forking a public Github repository without attribution and stealing industrial secrets encrypted into photographs?
- throwaway234970 8y agoYes, there is a difference, but that's because academia is not industry. Since academia's main goal is to publicize findings rather than keep them secret, plagiarism is the academic analogue of stealing "industrial secrets" and then giving them to a competitor (i.e., increasing the prestige of a rival university). The overall effect is comparable, even if the currency (reputation instead of money) is different, and the decision to steal is still rooted in the same sense of ethics / morality.
- propman 8y agoThis is NOT a cultural thing folks. I really want to emphasize this basic basic fact. There are over 4 million Chinese Americans living here, 99% the most hardworking, honest, brilliant immigrants in America. The lowest crime, some of the highest success etc. There are a handful of people stealing technologies though and the point I want to make it ITS STATE SPONSERED. China gives you a handbook on how exactly to steal technology and how to bring it back. The STATE SPONSERED stealing of tech in specific fields is the problem and is estimated to lose the US $150B every year according to a bipartisan report not including the rest of the world. The CIA estimates thousands of government trained espionage operatives are present in California alone, far more than any other country has had ever and this doesn’t include the Confucious Initiatives all over the country. This isn’t a Chinese problem at all, it’s the government of China specifically CCPs fault that should be countered by government policy not mistrust.