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Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

• Leary 8y ago
  Melatonin is also an antioxidant. Does anyone know its effects on physical health?
  • drasticmeasures 8y ago
    https://examine.com/supplements/melatonin/ https://examine.com/supplements/melatonin/ See section 9.
• js2 8y ago
  Dupe from three weeks ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17505380 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17505380
  • slaveofallah93 8y ago
    Looks like the author posted it on his personal blog, but also on the group blog LessWrong, so the link avoided the filter.
    • tomhoward 8y ago
      The filter doesn't work several weeks later (or even days later AFAIK). Also, the earlier submission didn't get a lot of comments (7) or votes, so a second run is probably OK by the guidelines.
• DougN7 8y ago
  What a great article. Explains why melatonin works for my wife for a short time but then stops working (dosage in store-bought pills is too high and stays in the system too long).
• amaccuish 8y ago
  Melatonin has genuinely changed my life in regards to sleep. I'd tried everything and for exams went on Zopiclone, and then found the gold that is Melatonin. Thoroughly recommend anyone with suitable problems sleeping giving it a go. (I was DSPD, though every so often did the whole "Non-24-Hour-Sleep Disorder" thing)
  • ianai 8y ago
    For me, it took a solid two weeks before I saw a regulation of my sleep pattern. Same time of day, 3 hours before I wanted to sleep, turning off all screens and eventually covering my eyes with a sleeping mask. Time released, low (correct) dosing too. Too much melatonin like pushes your brain past sleep.
    • Angostura 8y ago
      The take-away from that sounds as if you found a sleeping-mask helpful, but there's not much evidence that melatonin had any effect.
      • haukilup 8y ago
        > The take-away from that sounds as if you found a sleeping-mask helpful, but there's not much evidence that melatonin had any effect. How can you reasonably conclude anything from your position, having only read that short comment? They have all the context and data and came to their conclusion. It might or might not be correct, but you're in no place to refute them on the topic of what has helped them personally.
        • ianai 8y ago
          The take away for me was that I have to let the melatonin work. It’s not a benzodiazepine. It won’t knock you out in 15 minutes like a benzodiazepine. But if you don’t counteract it with stimulants (and staring at a light is a stimulant) then it will work for you. It’s probably a lot healthier because of its subtlety too. At the time, I worked a late shift. That meant once I got home I went into dark out mode - to counteract all the stimulation from work. I didn’t absolutely have to do that for melatonin to work, but I was able to push up my sleeping time by doing that alongside melatonin. Ie melatonin works, but melatonin and other restful things I should otherwise be doing helped even more. Synergistically. At the end of the day, you literally have to decide to end your day.
• zawerf 8y ago
  It's always unclear whether you're reading crackpot or not especially around the nootropics crowd. In this case the author seems to be a psychiatrist so he should be trustworthy: http://slatestarcodex.com/about/ http://slatestarcodex.com/about/
• hendzen 8y ago
  If you regularly buy Melatonin, I highly recommend Trader Joes Brand chewable Melatonin tablets. In my area they cost $2.99 for a bottle, far below the cost of other brands, and the dosage per tablet is 0.5mg or 500mcg which for me is pretty optimal. EDIT: corrected units.
  • slaveofallah93 8y ago
    >0.5g or 500mcg I hope you mean 0.5 mg not 0.5g because that would be a very big dose!
    • anonytrary 8y ago
      I think he did mean .5mg since 500ug is .5mg. Still, I'm a bit confused. The bottles I get come in doses of 10mg, I can't imagine taking even just two or three of them in a single night! On the other hand, I'd think 1/20th of my pill (.5mg) would be way too little. After reading this relevant paraphrase from the article: > There have been few studies on sighted young people. One finds that 1 mg works but 0.3 mg doesn’t; this study is an outlier. Another study on 25yo found both to work equally. Another study on 22-24yo found that 0.3 mg worked better than 1.0. UpToDate and Mayo Clinic suggests using at most .5mg. John Hopkins’ experts almost agree: they say “less is more” but recommend 1-3 mg. I wonder if I should actually start cutting my pills in 20ths now... The author goes on to say he personally thinks that .3mg is a good amount and anything beyond 1mg is too much. Edit: Sorry for the edits, I read the article after I made my comment, then figured I'd share their answer since I asked the question myself.
      • mkolodny 8y ago
        > On the other hand, I'd think 1/20th of my pill (.5mg) would be way too little. That's one of the key points of the article: > “But my local drugstore sells 10 mg pills! When I asked if they had anything lower, they looked through their stockroom and were eventually able to find 3 mg pills! And you’re saying the correct dose is a third of a milligram?!” > Yes. Most existing melatonin tablets are around ten to thirty times the correct dose.
• skadamat 8y ago
  Every single person here, if your serious about diving into the science of sleep, should read Matthew Walker's book: Why We Sleep: https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-Dreams/dp/1501144316 https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-Dreams/dp/1501... His interview on Joe Rogan is a good summary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwaWilO_Pig https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwaWilO_Pig He covers everything from why we sleep (obv), naps, melatonin, etc. I've just finished it and really enjoyed it.
  • selimthegrim 8y ago
    Seconding this. His data on agents of sleep disruption/degradation of sleep quality were eye-opening.
  • atomical 8y ago
    Joe Rogan is one of the biggest propagators of pseudoscience. It's not a good sign when a guest appears on his show. Joe usually tries to rope them into talking about his two favorite health topics: cholesterol and testosterone.
    • colordrops 8y ago
      You must not listen to him recently. I've listened to maybe 15 episodes and haven't heard either of those yet. He's been a pretty level headed host. It could be that he's better than he used to be because I've only listened to recent episodes, but it's been great so far.
      • robbiep 8y ago
        I haven't listened to a lot of Joe Rogan but from what I have listened (maybe last 6-7 episodes) and wearing my Dr hat I feel he fluctuates. He seems to walk a pretty level line but then occasionally drops things that are demonstrably false. More out of ignorance than malice I believe
    • kovek 8y ago
      Hi atomical, that's an interesting claim. Can you explain more why you believe that? I have listened through a couple of episodes and those made for interesting discussions.
• drasticmeasures 8y ago
  From the article: >The consensus stresses that melatonin is a very weak hypnotic. The Buscemi meta-analysis cites this as their reason for declaring negative results despite a statistically significant effect – the supplement only made people get to sleep about ten minutes faster. “Ten minutes” sounds pretty pathetic, but we need to think of this in context. Even the strongest sleep medications, like Ambien, only show up in studies as getting you to sleep ten or twenty minutes faster; this New York Times article says that “viewed as a group, [newer sleeping pills like Ambien, Lunesta, and Sonata] reduced the average time to go to sleep 12.8 minutes compared with fake pills, and increased total sleep time 11.4 minutes.” I don’t know of any statistically-principled comparison between melatonin and Ambien, but the difference is hardly (pun not intended) day and night. >Rather than say “melatonin is crap”, I would argue that all sleeping pills have measurable effects that vastly underperform their subjective effects. The linked article speculates on one reason this might be: people have low awareness around the time they get to sleep, and a lot of people’s perception of whether they’re insomniac or not is more anxiety (or sometimes literally dream) than reality. This is possible, but I also think of this in terms of antidepressant studies, which find similarly weak objective effects despite patients (and doctors) who swear by them and say they changed their lives. If I had to guess, I would say that the studies include an awkward combination of sick and less-sick people and confuse responders and non-responders. Maybe this is special pleading. I don’t know. But if you think any sleeping pill works well, melatonin doesn’t necessarily work much worse than that. The evidence says that it's a very weak hypnotic. The writer then makes a long, pseudoscientific argument against the evidence, while making a claim that their article is scientific, even though it wasn't peer reviewed. They make a cherry-picked comparison to Ambien, Lunesta and Sonata based on an article by non-scientific newspaper New York Times to bolster their claims; they ignore the ability of other, more potent hypnotics to improve time to sleep and sleep length in mental illness-caused insomnia -- on whom melatonin may be ineffective -- and in people with different causes for their sleep disorders. I leave it as an exercise to the reader to find the other flaws in the article.
  • robbiep 8y ago
    2 other low hanging fruit that make me pause re credibility: The article butchers the role of intracellular adenosine increases. It would be fairly easy to describe the full mechanism but instead says that Adenosine is made whilst awake and cleared while asleep which is a gross oversimplification and actually pretty scientifically inaccurate. It further describes UpToDate as 'the gold standard research database' - UpToDate is nothing of the sort - it is a authoritative clinical reference. Think Economist for medicine, except each article is about a condition, diagnosis or treatment and it is updated. But like all clinical references that are produced by humans, it has biases specific to the authors, their clinical practices etc
• elchief 8y ago
  I used to suffer terrible sleep until recently. Always exhausted in the morning. Sore all over. Missed meetings, or called in sick some days. Would wake up around 11 if I could Now I can wake up around 630 am, lift weights, do HIIT, and be early to work Melatonin wakes me up in the middle of the night. I take Unisom (Doxylamine) as well. Works pretty well in combination I have blackout curtains but I need some light to wake me up in the am, so I leave them open about six inches on one side I eat a small organic meal for dinner, early as I can, usually by 630
  • TheEzEzz 8y ago
    Just an anecdotal warning. Unisom is not recommended for long term use. I didn't know this and used it for a year straight to combat stress induced insomnia during my first startup. It took me a few years before I returned to feeling "normal". YMMV.
    • travbrack 8y ago
      Another data point: I've been using it on and off for a year now and it's been a life saver. I can reliably get to sleep when I need to for the first time in my life As best I can tell it's not recommended for long term use because it hasn't been studied for that purpose and because there are prescription sleep aids that don't cause as much drowsiness I'm terrified of taking a prescription sleep aid because of all the sleepwalking horror stories. I take only 5 mg so the drowsiness isn't that big of a problem for me especially if I exercise in the morning. I'll take drowsy and rested over alert and unrested any day.
      • joveian 8y ago
        The first generation antihistamines are strongly anticholinergic, so long term use might have cognative effects and may increase the chance of dementia later in life. They can also interact with a lot of other medication since they are much less specific than most drugs. I agree that they are still quite a bit better than GABA-A agonists. IMO, any sleep medication is best taken with breaks as frequently as possible, which can both increase effectiveness when you take it and reduce side effects of long term use.
• moultano 8y ago
  Melatonin has been a lifesaver for me after having kids and for a few other new parents I know that I've recommended it to. Somehow it allows you to get much more rest out of interrupted sleep.
• megaman22 8y ago
  Melatonin doses of the standard distribution seem great for crazy fucking dreams, but little else. Drinking two Rolling Rocks or PBR distilleries is more effective;
  • oceanghost 8y ago
    I did this for a decade. If you drink or smoke pot to sleep you will slowly go mad. They suppress deep sleep.
    • goldmouth 8y ago
      This is true for alcohol but I'm not sure about cannabis. In California, a heavy indica is a recommended by doctors for sleep. My understanding is that it only affects R.E.M. sleeep. Anecdotally, I track my sleep and when I smoked a heavy indica before bed I would consistently get at high 80 to 90% sleep quality. I'm on a couple of month tolerance break and have a hard time breaking 80% sleep quality.
      • oceanghost 8y ago
        Allow me to refer you to Joe Rogan - Effects of Alcohol and Marijuana on Sleep https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNxk8W10wtY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNxk8W10wtY I agree that sleep on THC is far better than no sleep at all, but for me, it became a crutch. I couldn't sleep without it. It was hell for traveling.
      • joveian 8y ago
        I think you mean sleep efficiency here not sleep quality? Sleep quality isn't possible to measure precisely without EEG and usually both deep sleep and REM sleep are tracked (and both together are usually less than half of sleep). I recently came accross Babson et al. 2017 Cannabis, Cannabinoids, and Sleep: a Review of the Literature: http://www.med.upenn.edu/cbti/assets/user-content/documents/s11920-017-0775-9.pdf http://www.med.upenn.edu/cbti/assets/user-content/documents/... There hasn't been that much research (and most is on synthetic cb1 and cb2 agonists, not cannabis, and is short term). cb1 and cb2 receptors have different effects, and the dose (especially CBD) and length of use may both make a large difference. IIRC (and maybe not from this particular review) there is evidence that the same receptors may have opposite effects in different parts of the brain. cb1 receptors have a major role in circadian rhythm. Some studies have shown increased slow wave sleep at least at first, but long term use and withdrawal may have the same issues as GABA-A agonists. Your current issues may be withdrawal effects or due to it helping or both. Interestingly, the common anesthetic propofol inhibits an enzyme (FAAH) that breaks down the endocannabinoid anandamide. It might work well to combine endocannabinoid enhancers with other sleep aids (maybe melatonin), however research on those seems aimed at pain relief and hasn't worked out so there don't seem to be any good ones generally available. Pfizer did a Stage 1 sleep trial of the FAAH1 inhibitor PF-04457845 (by itself), but only to make sure it was passing the blood brain barrier. They didn't publish the results but it sounds like they found at least slightly reduced REM sleep (I'm not sure if there was increased deep sleep). Some people have tried oleamide for sleep and it is a cb1 receptor agonist (among many other things including some kind of GABA effect). It sounds like it naturally accumulates during sleep deprevation. Looking online I have mostly found people reporting no effect, although I did see one person with primary insomnia who found it very helpful when cannabis wasn't. One person reported feeling tired and dizy all the time after a few weeks of use (resolving when they stopped) and the person who found it helpful said it felt like it wasn't a good thing to take every day. It is worth noting that it may have a fairly significant and direct dopamine system effect (vs indirect effect of cannabis) and that is one of the most fragile parts of the brain.
• jaequery 8y ago
  anyone here tried breathing exercises to help with better sleep? i am noticing that at times when i am taking deep and slow breaths before sleeping, i have a dramatically higher quality sleep.
  • maxxxxx 8y ago
    Breathing definitely helps me with sleeping and also in many other areas.
  • firic 8y ago
    I don't know why but whenever I did the technique where I tense and relax my muscles I got nightmares.
  • netule 8y ago
    A 20 minute meditation session before bedtime helps me sleep better.
• yosito 8y ago
  I'm reading HN because I have insomnia after upping my Melatonin dose from 2.5mg to 5mg at the recommendation of my psychiatrist. I've never had the early morning jolt of energy until the last couple of days. Maybe I'll drop my dosage down to 1.75mg tomorrow. That's about the lowest I can get with these 10mg pills.
  • philwelch 8y ago
    1.75 mg is still almost an order of magnitude higher than the recommended dose of 300 micrograms. Throw your pills away and get these instead: https://www.amazon.com/Sundown-Naturals-Melatonin-300-Tablets/dp/B000GG2I9O/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1532837902&sr=8-2-spons&keywords=melatonin+300+mcg&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/Sundown-Naturals-Melatonin-300-Tablet...
    • codenesium 8y ago
      If I take 300 micrograms I feel groggy the next day. I do half and that's just right. It's crazy people are doing 3-10mg.
      • hsljekskfh 8y ago
        it only takes a couple days to lose your tolerance. if you have to use melatonin, try the smallest dose you can
      • 56chan4 8y ago
        Ideally a bedroom needs to be so dark that if you hold you hand up inches away from in front of your nose, you cant see your hand in any way. You may also want to consider good ventilation in the room, if CO2 levels get up to around 700ppm which can happen in a few hours of going to bed, you will also wake up feeling less refreshed and groggy. Its why they have CO2 scrubbers in submarines and why people feel more refreshed when camping under canvas. Sleeping at the back of a large cave doesnt seem so bad now.
        • luc4sdreyer 8y ago
• taeric 8y ago
  Are there statistics somewhere on how many folks use an alarm clock? Every time I think I have a sleeping problem, I'm always harshly reminded of how different my sleeping habits are by virtue of the fact that I have never used an alarm clock. Something that it seems near universal among everyone else. (Though, I suspect it is just something everyone talks about. Hypothesis being that I'm in the majority, but there is just nothing to say about not using one.)
  • noitsnot 8y ago
    If I didn't use an alarm clock I would be unemployed.
    • gordaco 8y ago
      I've trained myself (and reworked my daily schedule) to stop using alarm clocks. Incidentally, next week will be 4 years since the last time I used one. And melatonin has been one of my main tools. Getting up by yourself instead of being jolted out of sleep is invaluable, especially if you do rest all the time you need.
      • taeric 8y ago
        Similarly, I haven't used one for more than a few months at a time for my entire life. Pushing forty at this point. I'll confess the winter months up here in Seattle can be tough. Sun isn't up til about 8ish, so it can be hard to realize what time it is. In the summer, though, sun is up at 4:30. I don't know how folks sleep too late. Even when exhausted, sleeping past 7 is near impossible.
• 20years 8y ago
  Melatonin has also shown to help with certain cancers especially breast. Ref: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5412427/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5412427/
  • 56chan4 8y ago
    No mention of the antioxidant properties of melatonin or its metabolites. https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ben/ctmc/2002/00000002/00000002/art00006 https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ben/ctmc/2002/0000000... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3614697/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3614697/ https://www.fasebj.org/doi/abs/10.1096/fj.01-0309fje https://www.fasebj.org/doi/abs/10.1096/fj.01-0309fje Or the fact it also appears to have an effect on mesenchymal stem cells. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1600-079X.2006.00318.x https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1600-079X.... https://stemcellsjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1634/stemcells.2007-1000 https://stemcellsjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10... https://stemcellsjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1634/stemcells.2007-0197 https://stemcellsjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10... Perhaps this is why its called Beauty Sleep? I also wonder what effect on the sleep pattern these above affects have in the big picture of sleep? Best sleep I have had in adulthood was water only fasting for 18days recently. The body seems to know what to do to repair itself, perhaps because ever cell has a copy of our DNA in it. There seems to be some knowledge in this DNA that makes cells know what to be and how to perform its individual cellular role for the bigger picture of being part of a body, a bit like individual humans playing their part in a society.
  • Confusion 8y ago
    Some folks in the anti-aging community are taking it daily, not because they have trouble sleeping, but exactly because there seem to be a number of small health benefits of taking melaton8n that are not mediated by better sleeping.
  • copperx 8y ago
    It has also been shown that melatonin improves the efficacy of breast cancer chemotherapy.
• IBM 8y ago
  What time should you take melatonin if you don't have any major sleep problems but want to improve sleep quality?
  • saym 8y ago
    I assume the answer would be the same times that are solving for delayed sleep phase disorder.
  • RandomInteger4 8y ago
    Roughly 30 minutes before I hit the pillow works for me. I use the normal melatonin (non-chews), but I suck on them till they dissolve in my mouth, because I hate when they get stuck in my epiglottis; you get used to the bitter flavor after a bit. I'm going to assume this is safe because chewables exist.
    • jonhendry18 8y ago
      Why not just take it with a small amount of water?
      • RandomInteger4 8y ago
        Water isn't a magic lubricant. Pills still get stuck in my epiglottis with water. Usually when I take pills, I do it followed by a piece of bread and then water, but prior to bed I don't want to eat anything after brushing my teeth and the pill dissolves nicely, and like I said, I assume it's safe, because chewables exist (obviously other drugs don't work in a similar manner).
        • jonhendry18 8y ago
          Ah. Have you tried butter, which would be a lubricant? And it would probably be relatively safe after brushing because of the lack of sugars.
          • RandomInteger4 8y ago
• ve55 8y ago
  Some related posts by the same author, some about drugs (SSRIs and Adderall), some about other topics: https://slatestarcodex.com/tag/much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/ https://slatestarcodex.com/tag/much-more-than-you-wanted-to-...
• geofft 8y ago
  Re dosages - I recently found melatonin in liquid / dropper bottle form at one of my local drugstores, intended to be mixed into a glass of water or similar. The "dosage" is 1 mg, but that requires 4 droppers - so a single dropper is 250 µg, and it's very easy to do less than that (although not with much accuracy). If you don't want to buy from some online nootropics store just to get a 300µg dose, check your local drugstore or vitamin store for liquid melatonin, and read the label and see how much each dropper is. I just took a ~half-dropper with a glass of water because I'm still up. Good night!
  • lxmorj 8y ago
    Also if it's cheap enough, you can dump half the water after dilution!
    • geofft 8y ago
      Yes, that (or mixing a pitcher of 3mg melatonin and measuring a tenth of it each evening, or something) would also work. Anything with liquid seems way less fiddly than trying to split pills into >2 parts, I'm surprised I don't see more liquid melatonin at stores or more people who know that they want a <1mg dose suggesting liquid melatonin.
      • derefr 8y ago
        > less fiddly If the melatonin is in pressed-pill form, rather than splitting it, you can just crush it in a mortar, then mix it with more filler (look at which one they’re already using on the bottle and use some of that; they’re usually using the cheapest thing that works.) Then you can simply measure out powder for a dose (rather than measuring out liquid). If you want to go the extra mile, you can add enough filler to the mixture to fill a grid of gelatin half-capsules, such that you don’t have to worry about measuring doses.
• GuardianCaveman 8y ago
  I never took it because I read a long time ago that it causes your body to decrease melatonin production long term. I guess that’s just a myth because people in this thread seem very positive about using it long term.
  • craftyguy 8y ago
    People in this thread didn't RTFA (top posts are addressing the title/subject of 'melatonin'), and generally the responses are anecdotal. Don't assume folks here know what they are talking about.
  • Broken_Hippo 8y ago
    I don't think it is a myth. I worked at a pharmacy for years before moving overseas. I'm not a pharmacist, but overheard pharmacist-customer advice for melatonin many times. While melatonin is one of the safer sleep aids, the pharmacists would always warn to take the lowest dose possible, and only take it while needed without a doctor's oversight because of the threat of decreasing natural melatonin production. It causes a sort of dependency on the supplement. It always seemed occasional use was OK, and generally safer than some of the alternatives. I think these risks are why the supplement is a prescription here (Norway), and I fully agree with this. It can still be better than the dependency on other sleep aids and have fewer side effects, though.
  • rofo1 8y ago
    The best book on this topic (that I've read) "Why We Sleep" is uniformly against all kinds of medicine. There isn't long-term effect after 6 months (I think) of any sleep medicine, according to certain studies. The effect literally "wears off", despite the subjective notion of the user.
  • jonhendry18 8y ago
    In the long term, your body produces less melatonin as part of aging.
• gingerlime 8y ago
  Anyone knows why Melatonin is available so easily in the US, but you need a prescription for it in Europe? (I haven’t asked my GP though)
  • lucd 8y ago
    No need for a prescription in France.
    • gordaco 8y ago
      Nor in Spain. I've been taking melatonin for quite some time, and so has my mother. You just go to a pharmacy and buy it over the counter.
      • drakonka 8y ago
        A friend of mine was on rotation in Sweden from the US and went into the pharmacy to ask for some melatonin to help with her jet-lag. She was very sternly told that she needs a prescription for that here.
      • collyw 8y ago
        You can get it in Mercadona's sleeping pills.
  • novaRom 8y ago
    I guess it is dangerous in regard to driving ability and misuse. You need an approval from a doctor.
  • Angostura 8y ago
    My understanding is because it is sold as a food supplement in the U.S while the UK, for example regulates it as a medicine. So its available for prescription for short-term treatment of sleep disordersm, with provisos such as: "Melatonin’s metabolism is mainly mediated via CYP1A enzymes. Therefore interactions may occur between melatonin and other drugs affecting or metabolised by CYP1A enzymes e.g. fluvoxamine, cimetidine, ciprofloxacin and other quinolones, carbamazepine, omeprazole, oestrogens (oral contraceptives and HRT), rifampicin, theophylline and increase in blood pressure with nifedipine and reduced prothrombin with warfarin have been reported." etc.
• picsao 8y ago
  If you replace or adhance a normal Hormon source with a synthetic one.. be aware that the gland producing the Hormon might permanently reduce the amount produced or become oversensitive to the signaling process. If it's already shut have fun hacking.
• beagle3 8y ago
  While melatonin helped me, the results were inconsistent. However, 10,000IU of vitamin D3 before 10am (see e.g. [0] for discussion and analysis that do NOT support my regime) seem to consistently give me a good reliable sleep schedule. I was definitely not as thorough as Gwern, nor comparing to placebo - but for decades I have tried tens of different sleep aids, most of them useless, some working for a couple of weeks and then not, melatonin being inconsistent - with vitamin D feeling like a jackpot. If you care to experiment, do your own reading on dosing - it should be adjusted down if you spend any time in the sun - but it should 25-50IU/lb of body weight, which is way higher than the FDA RDA. This is not medical advice. I am not a medical professional, nor do I play one on TV. YMMV. Proceed at your own risk. [0] https://www.gwern.net/zeo/Vitamin-D https://www.gwern.net/zeo/Vitamin-D
  • ak39 8y ago
    Hi Beagle, Is this a daily dose of D3 of 10,000 IU? And for how long have you been taking it?
    • beagle3 8y ago
      Daily dose, have been for ~6 years now, not religiously - when traveling for less than a week I usually don’t take any with me, and I deliberately take a couple of weeks off every year to see if it still makes any difference (after 2-4 weeks, it starts becoming harder to fall asleep again, after which I wait another week and restart). 50,000 daily for a month is toxic, though afaik 20,000 has no “period of time it becomes toxic”; however, D is fat Soluable, so I take breaks to make sure my body can get rid of any excess.
      • macawfish 8y ago
        Do you also take magnesium?
        • beagle3 8y ago
          Yes; regular 400mg elemental magnesium (in chelated form)/day, and occasionally (e.g. after serious exercise) an additional teaspoon - 300-600mg elemental, in citrate form -- I find it keeps the muscles feeling much better (in a way that increasing the dose of chelated form does not -- even though the latter is supposed to be much more bioavailable). I have never thought about the calcification angle that you mentioned in another thread, I'm just constantly experimenting since my teens, and keeping the things that seem to improve my well being (with the occasional breaks to guarantee I'm not overdosing/accumulating, and also to see that it still helps). How much magnesium do you add to your D3? (and, if anyone is going to try magnesium citrate or magnesium oxide as a result of this post - I highly recommend building up your dose from very little, and doing that on days where you have easy access to a bathroom - in the beginning, bioavailability is low, but it does relax your bowel muscles ... and even after your bioavailability rises, will happen with excess amounts)
• chmars 8y ago
  Melatonin is usually not (freely) sold in Europe while it can be easily bought in the US like vitamin pills or cod liver oil. Is there a recommendable online option with international delivery? (I don't consider the usual 'online pharmacies' recommendable. Even when buying Melatonin in a store in the US, there's still the issue that Melatonin manufacturers and sellers mostly control themselves …)
  • akx 8y ago
    Huh. Melatonin is readily available in pharmacies and shops here in Finland.
    • akvadrako 8y ago
      I don't know why the parent said "Europe", unless they did a survey of all the laws. Drugs are mostly regulated at the country level.
      • chmars 8y ago
        You are right, my use of "Europe" was too broad.
    • enra 8y ago
      Afaik, 5 years ago it was only available in the 1mg amount (which in the light of this article, would be good). I once ordered some online that was 3mg, and the customs almost fined me for illegal drug importing.
  • spuz 8y ago
    In the UK, it's not possible to buy over the counter, however it's legal to import from another country where it is legal. I've purchased it several times from https://www.biovea.com/uk/ https://www.biovea.com/uk/ The products I ordered definitely work so I think I trust them.
    • chmars 8y ago
      Thank you!
• jwilliams 8y ago
  I regularly take long haul flights (12+ hours) and take Melatoin for Jet Lag. I'll take twice. With the flights I take this usually works out to before sleeping on the plane (which ideally is the same/close to bed-time at the destination). And then the first night at the destination. In combination with other tricks -- I've found it really effective.
  • andy_ppp 8y ago
    What are the other tricks, I’ve always found jet lag horrendous.
    • alecco 8y ago
      Water fast for 13 to 16 hours before the time you want to wake up. And have a large breakfast right then. https://hbr.org/2009/05/a-fast-solution-to-jet-lag https://hbr.org/2009/05/a-fast-solution-to-jet-lag https://www.google.com/search?q=jet+lag+fast+hours https://www.google.com/search?q=jet+lag+fast+hours
    • camillomiller 8y ago
      I also use Melatonin for jetlag, but I usually prefer to do it just for the first and second night at the destination. On 12+ hrs flight I prefer a bland sleeping aid, as it is not directly working on the circadian rhythm (or at least that’s my experience). Other useful tricks: - ban alcohol altogether the day of the flight an possibly one day before and one after - order a special vegan meal during the flight, even if you’re not vegan. They’ll serve you first and you’ll have more time to organize your sleeping schedule on board, plus you’ll stay more hydrated as the meal will usually include more veggies. - stay hydrated constantly, I’d dare say even over hydrated
      • philjohn 8y ago
        The vegan meal trick is airline specific. On BA for instance, if you're in premium economy or higher as long as you order your meal via their portal a few days before the flight they'll serve you first before offering what's left to everyone else.
• k__ 8y ago
  I always dream much when taking Melatonin, which makes the sleep less refreshing.
  • collyw 8y ago
    I thought that indicated REM sleep which is supposed to be the best type. (I heard that alcohol and pot do the opposite,so you have less refreshing sleep).
• stealthmodeclan 8y ago
  When I was working long hours at an startup. My sleep cycle got disturbed. Here is what works for me: 1. Reduce room temperature to 25*C. Go to bed at 10:30pm 2. Automatically shutdown the airconditioner at 4:30am. 3. Jump out of bed at 5am without any alarm clock. This habit continues in the month when no airconditioner is needed.
  • methyl 8y ago
    It seems you sleep 6 hours per day - way too little.
  • nickthemagicman 8y ago
    25c is 77f. That's way too hot for me. I need max 70, 65 ideally. With a blanket.
  • jonhendry18 8y ago
    Reduce the temperature to 25C? What do you normally keep it at?
• macawfish 8y ago
  Magnesium is very important. Magnesium deficient rats were shown to have decreased melatonin. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17172005/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17172005/ It's also protective against hypercalcemia, so if you're taking vitamin D, make sure you're getting enough magnesium. I've even read that magnesium alone can mitigate the symptoms of vitamin D deficiency.
  • Confusion 8y ago
    Magnesium is important, many people are deficient, supplementation is cheap and supplementation is very unlikely to cause harm (as long as you keep it to max 300 mg of elemental Mg (e.g. 2g of magnesium citrate) a day). Like with vitamin D, you should have very good reasons not to chose to take a magnesium supplement.
    • opportune 8y ago
      Is magnesium dissolved in water bioavailable? There are some sparkling mineral waters with Mg ions and it would be nice to be able to just sip on those
      • Confusion 8y ago
        I’m not sure. I know the bioavailability of magnesium citrate is much better than that of magnesium oxide, due to the bad solubility in water of the latter (and supplements with magnesium oxide are thus next to useless). That suggests Mg ions already present should be readily absorbed.
  • yalph 8y ago
    Thanks, whats the best magnesium supplement to take?
• TACIXAT 8y ago
  I have cut out sugar and caffeine for dietary reasons and my sleep schedule did not improve at all. I tried those red shift apps and they did not change my sleep schedule. The last few weeks I was not working on my computer late at night and got tired at a reasonable time. Now that I am back working on my side project, having interesting problems to solve (one more feature before bed!) and the bright screen, I am starting to stay up late again. I notice when I do everything right I don't have a problem waking up before 8 hours. Normally I shoot for 8:30 and have trouble going to sleep and getting up. Also when I am in a good sleep schedule I sometimes wake up in the middle of the night, use the restroom, meditate if I'm awake enough, then go back to sleep. I am sad to say that with most of the other factors controlled, bright screens are the likely cause of my sleep issues. This is hard for me because screen is life.
  • themodelplumber 8y ago
    I'm not sure I understand, but I want to: Do you become engaged in a project and fall asleep later because it's hard to drop the project, or do you become engaged in a project and use a bright screen and the screen causes you (through some screen-body interface mechanism) to fall asleep later?
    • TACIXAT 8y ago
      It is unknown to me, honestly. Most of the time I am simply not tired, which I blame the screen for. When I do get tired I usually push it even later if I'm working on something good.
  • spraak 8y ago
    How long ago did you take out caffeine? I found it took a month for my sleep quality to improve, but once it did it was an amazing difference.
    • TACIXAT 8y ago
      I haven't had any for a few years.
  • 8y ago
• anonu 8y ago
  Couple anecdotal points: - Used to have to sleep problems - mainly just my mind racing with all the (stress of) things I had to do. The symptoms were trouble sleeping and/or waking in the middle of the night with instant thoughts of projects, task lists. - Melatonin didn't help me much. Maybe their effect was too subtle on me - maybe I was using the wrong dose as mentioned in the post. - Magnesium Glycinate pills before sleep were a massive help in falling asleep and staying asleep. The only way I can describe its effects is helping me "control my brain waves". Sounds a bit non-technical but the effect is quite subtle . The idea to take these supplements were from previous discussions on HN. - Recently got a newborn baby - first child. These things will do more to knock you sleep cycle out whack than anything else I've experienced. Coincidentally, falling asleep and staying asleep is easier than ever. You just end up getting woken up by a tiny crying human at seemingly random times.
  • Sharlin 8y ago
    There's really no great solution to stress-induced sleep problems except to reduce stress.
  • clumsysmurf 8y ago
    I use Mg Citrate, because it seems pretty bio-available and easy to find. Does the form matter? Maybe I should switch to Glycinate.
    • clumsysmurf 8y ago
      Gah, the Mg Citrate I used from Solgar seems to be contaminated with Arsenic according to labdoor. https://labdoor.com/rankings/magnesium https://labdoor.com/rankings/magnesium
  • Mouse47 8y ago
    Quick note for anyone reading this about magnesium glycinate: this form of magnesium contains an amino acid called glycine, and we have evidence that glycine can improve sleep quality. According to examine.com, the evidence is "very high" that: >In persons undergoing mild sleep deprivation, 3g of glycine an hour prior to sleep is able to increase sleep quality and improve self-reports of fatigue and well being the next day due to better sleep. I take approx. 10g of gelatin a day which also contains glycine, and I also notice improvements in my sleep.
• Nihilartikel 8y ago
  The but about th optimal dose being 0.3mg is interesting. I've been nibbling the corners of 3mg pills for years now, since the full strength always left me with a weird sleep hangover, or I would end up bolt awake but still sleepy at 4am..
• qwerty456127 8y ago
  Wow! I've started with 2.5 mg and now 20 mg does nothing to me. I've been doing it sooo wrong. I hope the tolerance is going to fall now as I've stopped taking it and I will be able to use it the right way going with 0.3mg. That's such a pity you can't just get any better kind of a sleeping pill without a prescription if you don't want to mess with circadian rhythms and just want to fall asleep whenever you have time but can't. So many people actually have irregular schedules: day and night shifts mixed chaotically etc. I actually don't think I know anybody who would go to bed at the same time every night. I wish I had Ambien for occasions like that (I don't drive) but it seems impossible to get without a doctor. In fact I've tried to do some research but failed to find any information about undesirable effects and DON'Ts of melatonin at the time when I've started taking it (some years ago). It seemed a wonder drug everybody should be taking all the time - it just makes you sleep well whenever you choose to, protects from oxidative stress, boosts your immunity etc. But now I know: tolerance (including tolerance to endogenic melatonin which means screwing your natural circadian system) is what you pay (I could find not a single mention of melatonin tolerance until today).
• protomok 8y ago
  Just a quick warning for those considering Melatonin before a flight or for adjusting to jet lag: About a week before a long flight I decided to test Melatonin and took a single 3mg tablet (smallest dosage I could find at my local pharmacy) before I went to bed. My sleep quality seemed unchanged but right after breakfast the next day I had gastro issues. I tried a 3 mg tablet again a few days later and had the same symptoms. I gave up on Melatonin deciding it was better to be wide awake over the Pacific than stuck in a tiny airplane bathroom :) YMMV but other folks online have had similar side effects. It seems a small % of people have gastro issues but if you're considering Melatonin I suggest a small dosage first (maybe 0.3mg as recommended by the article) and a test _before_ travelling!
• tananaev 8y ago
  I occasionally use Melatonin to help me sleep on planes or adjust to new timezone, but I don't think it's a good idea to take it regularly.
  • sdrothrock 8y ago
    I'm curious since this is currently apparently the highest-upvoted comment -- does OP (or any upvoters) have any (preferably reference-backed) reasoning for this? Otherwise it's just an unsubstantiated knee-jerk reaction at the top of the discussion. I take melatonin once a week or so but haven't noticed any detrimental effects, so I do have a stick in the game and would like to know about potential issues if anything is out there.
    • tananaev 8y ago
      I don't have any studies to back it up, but I know someone who used to take it every day and she said it's harder for her to fall asleep without it than it used to before she started taking it. Naturally our body adjusts to anything that we ingest.
• solarengineer 8y ago
  I've been practicing mindfulness meditation for a few weeks. I'm in week four now, and I'm getting good results. https://palousemindfulness.com https://palousemindfulness.com
• baccheion 8y ago
  A good multivitamin stack (for example, AOR Ortho-Core + Life Extension D & K in the morning and 4 Doctor's Best High Absorption Magnesium pills at night 5 days/week) is probably better than raw melatonin.
• iEchoic 8y ago
  > Yes. Most existing melatonin tablets are around ten to thirty times the correct dose. I couldn't find an explanation why they'd be sold at this dose from this article, which makes me suspicious of this. Am I missing something? What would be the motive for this?
  • copperx 8y ago
    Because they're sold as supplements and not as medications. Many supplement dosages are arbitrary, with few exceptions.
  • IanAWP 8y ago
    The same author posted a follow-up post explaining why: http://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/12/did-a-melatonin-patent-inspire-current-dose-confusion/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/12/did-a-melatonin-patent-... In summary: "Commenters, including a patent lawyer, have filled in the rest of the story. Because melatonin is a natural hormone and not an invention, patents can only cover specific uses of it. The MIT patent covered the proper way to use it for sleep; a broader patent might not have been granted. The patent probably guided supplement companies, but expired about five years ago. It’s now legal to produce melatonin 0.3 mg pills, but people are so used to higher doses that few people do."
  • Raphmedia 8y ago
    It is not their motivation but what's great about those huge doses is that you can cut the pills and the bottle of pill last two or four time as long.
  • graphitezepp 8y ago
    I suspect it's just marketing. Consumers like seeing the big numbers because they assume bigger number more effective.
  • ipunchghosts 8y ago
    Europe. I get mine melatonin tablets there. Just stock up for a year. Small bottles to bring back. Never had an issue through customs.
• Kagerjay 8y ago
  I have had awful sleep insomnia issues for as long as I can remember. This is a list of things that did not work for me. I also eat fairly healthy too, and workout almost every other day. Also I live in a tropical humid environment as well - Melatonin - In various dosages this had 0 effect on me - Coffee - I don't drink coffee (or caffeine) alot so even a small latte has an effective dosage of 8+ hours on me - Playing any competitive video games an hour before sleep - This pumped my adrenaline too high - Working out and sleeping an hour before - My muscles could not relax in that shorttime span - Sleeping bandaids to increase nasal intake flow didn't work - Flonase to increase nasal air intake didn't work - Reading fiction - some parts got too exciting and I wouldn't be able to sleep ------------------------------------------------------------------ These are things that did work for me - Bedjet + accompanying comforter- If there's one thing that I consider the best investment for sleep period, its this item. Its a A/C fan unit that circulates beneath a comforter you sleep on. I would say its the best $400 I've ever spent in my life as well. I can't sleep because of heat buildup, causing me to toss and turn. This is the link to the amazon item https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01BMCWJ7G/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01BMCWJ7G/ref=oh_aui_sear... . The unit sits near my leg so sometimes it drops my body temp near my calf low enough that I pull a muscle in the morning. I combat this by using a foam roller on my workouts - Bodypillow - I tend to toss and turn in bed a lot so having this limits my range of motion by a large factor. So I can't toss and turn anymore, body pillow is pinning my ability to apply torque https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B011U1LIK8/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B011U1LIK8/ref=oh_aui_sear... - Other habits - Practicing math or reading a textbook, its interesting but mentally exhausting to the point I end up falling asleep everytime within 30 minute. Before doing math sex &/or masturbation is effective at combating high induced stress - Bluelight filters on laptop / phone - I have a beddesk and still do work, but I associate different postures (sitting up) and lying down (sleeping) and enforce these practices heavily. Whenever I travel, and I have jetlag, I combat it by adding a afternoon nap to reset sleeping cycles. If I know I'm going on a 12hour flight I'll intentionally pre-exhaust myself with a heavy workout with reduced sleep the night before
• cbs_vs_dbs 8y ago
  As someone who works from home 90% of the time and sleeps/works in a room with a huge skylight, I've never had better sleep, energy, and overall "consistency" with my body. The most notable issues being that I actually feel sleepy when it's time to sleep, and I can fall asleep within minutes. I've never really experienced that before. I used to work nightshifts with mostly light-blocking shades, and the only natural sunlight was the light that came in from the small gap above the room partition (I lived in a flex room/living room). That set-up was the worst. I've had various life variables and combinations of them, but aside from the night-shift one, and obvious ones like constant sleep deprivation, it does seem like sunlight is playing the next-most significant role in helping to regulate my body and sleep.
  • dalore 8y ago
    That's ok if you're living close to the equator with a regular day/night schedule. But if living more towards the poles then you get extremes in winter and summer of how much light/darkness there is.
• ipunchghosts 8y ago
  I see lots of posts bashing melatonin. I take 0.5mg/night one hour before bed and it helps calm my mind and get right to sleep. It also helps me with my reflux!
• foxyv 8y ago
  I will always sing the praises of Trazodone for dealing with sleep issues. It worked extremely well for me and my parents. It's normally used at very large doses as a last line for clinical depression. However at smaller doses it's an extremely effective sleep aid for some people. It also doesn't make you to sleepy like other drugs. It just makes getting to sleep easy.
• amorphous 8y ago
  I have a very different sleep aid. A sleep headphone (a headband with speakers woven into that also serves as an eye-mask) combined with white noise (quality rain sound) served by an iPod. The white noise blocks outside sounds much better than earplugs, and the rain soothes me into sleep (always loved it when it rains outside and I'm in bed). It has become a crutch for me, sometimes I do worry if I have become too dependent on that arrangement, but it works well. In summer the headband can get hot though.
  • senatorobama 8y ago
    Link to the headband product ?
    • amorphous 8y ago
      There are a lot of crappy ones or overpriced, it takes some trying out to find a good fit. The ones I currently use are those: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sleep-Headphones-Adjustable-Comfortable-Relaxation/dp/B00XZCYQQ4/ https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sleep-Headphones-Adjustable-Comfort.... Had also good experience with the provider, they eagerly replace broken headphones.