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If you think libraries are useless, try going to one a few times and talk to the staff about the services they provide. I'd personally say libraries are one of
by chris_mc 8y ago
If you think libraries are useless, try going to one a few times and talk to the staff about the services they provide. I'd personally say libraries are one of the government organizations with the best return on investment, because education and information are almost invaluable. I'll fight a war over libraries, no joke.
- Sharlin 8y agoLast time I read a library-related discussion on HN, one of the sentiments expressed was basically ”I download ebooks, why would anyone need a library?” Boggles the mind. There was also a bizarre comment about libraries being only funded to keep a bunch of otherwise useless civil servants employed.
- pixl97 8y ago>”I download ebooks, why would anyone need a library?” Pretty much the tech version of "I am a W.A.S.P., I pretend everybody that has different economic, social, and cultural differences from me doesn't exist"
- Sharlin 8y agoThey’re not wrong when they say that the greatest privilege of all is the blissful lack of awareness of your privileges.
- dmreedy 8y agoor, more typically in my experience, (and somewhat more worryingly), "I don't understand that people with economic, social, and cultural differences exist". To paraphrase Eddie Izzard, it's like the traveling Briton visiting Afghanistan. "Sausage, egg and chips please... you do speak English, you just don't try!"
- pbhjpbhj 8y agoIzzard - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GkjwfrJo6uc# https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GkjwfrJo6uc#
- ihsw3 8y agoThis kind of racist horseshit has no place anywhere.
- bsagdiyev 8y agoIn case anyone else was confused like me: W.A.S.P. is White Anglo-Saxon Protestant (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Anglo-Saxon_Protestant https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Anglo-Saxon_Protestant)
- anoncoward111 8y agoFun fact about WASPs: back in the day, they used to hang signs that said "No Irish Need Apply". Even though Irish people are quite genetically similar to English people, and indeed today in America most bloodlines are mixed, the English still felt a need to classify Irish and Italians as "Ethnic White".
- rayiner 8y agoExcept library usage correlates with the opposite of what you're suggesting: http://www.pewinternet.org/2015/09/15/who-uses-libraries-and-what-they-do-at-their-libraries http://www.pewinternet.org/2015/09/15/who-uses-libraries-and.... Different ethnicities use libraries at almost exactly the same rate, and lower-income and lower-education households use libraries less than higher-income, higher-education households. Library use is declining across the board, but especially quickly in rural communities, among those with less than a high school degree, and among African americans.
- Sharlin 8y agoThat’s not really a counterargument to what the OP said. Most likely Internet usage is also lower in lower-income, less educated demographics, and the Internet and other media content that is consumed is of lower quality (tabloids, Fox News, etc.) It’s almost tautological that less well educated are, well, less well educated. And low-income-but-employed people often can’t afford to spend time consuming quality media, free or not, because leisure time itself is a luxury. There are a bunch of deep-rooted systemic problems here that the ”tech will solve everything” people conveniently ignore.
- cdoxsey 8y agoExcept statistically W.A.S.P.s are no less likely to use a library: http://www.pewinternet.org/2015/09/15/libraries-at-the-crossroads/2015-09-15_libraries_1-02-2/ http://www.pewinternet.org/2015/09/15/libraries-at-the-cross...
- dang 8y agoThis comment breaks the HN guidelines, which ask you not to bring extraneous flamebait into threads. If you could please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and follow the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it. Edit: looks like you've done this more than once and also posted a bunch of unsubstantive comments. Could you please fix this? We're trying for somewhat better here.
- BurningFrog 8y agoLet me steelman that argument. Libraries were invented because information was only available on printed (or hand written) books, which were very expensive and scarce resources. Now information can be available almost literally for free and instantly, to anywhere. If the institutional inertia of libraries didn't exist today, would they really be invented as they are? https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Steel_man https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Steel_man
- nxc18 8y agoAs they exist today: free access to computers and internet. Information is only literally free and instant if you have access to the internet, which isn't gauranteed especially for low income people.
- dsr_ 8y agoIn many places, libraries provide free access to computers and the Internet, especially for but in no way limited to low income people. Libraries adapt to the times, you know. And they still have books.
- robrenaud 8y agoFor a librarian's salary, one could subsidize lots of internet for low income people.
- toomuchtodo 8y agoOr we could take the intelligent route and use taxes to pay for both.
- kaitai 8y agoLibraries in the US serve an enormous homeless population. "Subsidizing internet for low income people" is easy to say but does not address the practicalities of providing internet to the homeless, for instance.
- darpa_escapee 8y ago
- realbarack 8y agoMany libraries (including San Francisco, where I am a member) even offer e-books and audiobooks. I switched to reading almost exclusively on my kindle, but I still get the vast majority of books for free from the library.
- knowuh 8y agoI download ebooks from my library.
- djhworld 8y ago> ”I download ebooks, why would anyone need a library?” The "I'm alright jack" mentality
- Spivak 8y agoLet's phrase it another way. If all you care about is information access you could replace libraries with country-wide digital catalogue of media and software, a program to subsidize the cost of computing devices and internet for people with low-income, and some public internet cafes. This doesn't at all capture what libraries actually do but the argument that we could be doing information access better and cheaper really just comes down to how the numbers come out.
- zjaffee 8y agoThe answer is because many libraries provide not only free access to ebooks, but you can also often time get actual e-readers on loan from them.
- rayiner 8y ago> because education and information are almost invaluable Citation needed.
- noja 8y ago> Citation needed. Ask a librarian.
- paulcole 8y agoIsn't this like asking a cosmetic surgeon if you need a nose job?
- rayiner 8y agoIs a librarian going to give me sound statistical research, or regurgitate shibboleths about the importance of education?
- ashelmire 8y agoThere's something ironic about a lawyer and university employee decrying education. Perhaps we should hit you over the head a few times until you forget everything you've ever learned and see how well the rest of your life turns out?
- rayiner 8y agoNothing ironic about it. Lawyers in the U.S. typically need seven years of education (a four-year college degree, and a three-year JD). In the U.K., they manage with a 3 to 4-year LLB. In the U.S., everyone is required to go to high-school through grade 12. In Germany, 40% of people finish at grade 10. Both the U.K. and Germany manage to have world class economies with substantially less education than the U.S. The U.S. is over educationalized, and part of the reason is that people are inundated with pablum like "education is almost invaluable."
- ashelmire 8y ago
- rb808 8y ago> try going to one This is probably the best hint that they might not be so useful. The truth is most people never go to libraries.
- romaniv 8y agoSome users of this website might never go to libraries, but every time I go to our local library there are tons of people there.
- prolikewh0a 8y agoEvery Seattle Public Library branch I go to is packed full every single day they're open, especially people using their computers.
- droopyEyelids 8y agoMost people don't go to hospitals either. At any given moment they're probably serving less than .5% of the population.
- bovermyer 8y ago"Most people," huh? Got a source for that?
- 394549 8y ago>>> try going to one >> This is probably the best hint that they might not be so useful. The truth is most people never go to libraries. > "Most people," huh? Got a source for that? His real name must be "Most People" and what he said is entirely an anecdote describing his own personal habits and preferences.
- zeugmasyllepsis 8y agoThe truth is, plenty of people go to libraries. By my local library's annual 2017 report, they have 625,000 active library card holders which collectively visited the library over 10 million times. [1] This is one of the busiest library systems in the country, but shows that, at least within a local region, libraries may be heavily used. [1] https://kcls.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/20/2018/03/2017-Year-in-Review-WEB.pdf https://kcls.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/20/2018/03/2017-Ye...
- epalmer 8y agoMy oldest daughter (26 years old) works at a library part-time in circulation. In December she will get her masters and be able to become a librarian. Libraries are more than books, they are maker spaces, community spaces, learning pods and so much more. We are bullish on libraries. However, libraries have to keep updating their services and offer community engagement services.
- trgn 8y agoIt's a beautiful profession too. There's several librarians in my family across 3 generations, and they all love their work. I think it's something about helping people, in a calm, welcoming environment, the work is a real good fit for bookish but social people.
- sixdimensional 8y agoHow does one become a librarian? I've thought about it my whole life. It almost feels like the vocation I've been called to but never realized.
- epalmer 8y agoA masters in Library Science or equivalent is almost always required. Typically (from my casual research) people are hired that have other prior library experience and can show a lifelong love of books. New masters degrees (master in information science at Fla State for example) have an ability to have more exposure to UI design, media creation, digital metadata and more.
- mehblahwhatevs 8y agoRealistically, and I mean no disrespect to the profession or your daughter who is studying it, but why is a degree required here? And a master's at that? What exactly do they do that requires knowledge? My assumption is they shelve books, maybe make recommendations, and hold weekly community events? And nowadays, help with social services like helping people create resumes and what not?
- probably_wrong 8y agoI visited Vancouver's public library last year. The library offers wifi, internet computers, professional computers exclusively for stuff like Photoshop, recording booths, musical instruments, organizes weekly events and, of course, books. If all you have is this library and time, you could pick up an instrument, learn how to play it, record a weekly podcast/vlog with your progress, edit the video, upload it to Youtube, and design your own artwork. Don't know how to do one of these things? Go pick up a book on it. You can launch an entire career for almost nothing. I'd like to see Amazon do that. I bring this specific case because, to me, it's an example of all a public library can be when we consider them a public service rather than a burden.
- sixdimensional 8y agoYes, this is exactly how I feel. Libraries and the services they offer can be an instrument for people to bring themselves out of poverty and for people to be able to grow and advance through education. I personally think of it like this - if I didn't have a job, where would I "go to work every day"? If I didn't have an income, and I couldn't get a job, I could go to a library. And a library could be the key to me finding a job, or work, or making it for myself. A library is a positive place to go with something to do, when otherwise, maybe I would have nothing, which can help me. My personal desire is not to disrupt libraries, but instead the opposite - to actually extend what they do until it gives even more people a chance to start their own business, find their own careers, or simply learn and educate themselves for work or pleasure. Lest we forget, that library science is the foundation of information science!
- nojvek 8y ago> I'll fight a war over libraries, no joke. No kidding. One of the best(worst) ways wars were waged in the past were to burn the libraries. Without knowledge, a civilization quickly suffocates. I don't think many would argue against, lending knowledge and technology as a way to help poor countries, rather than just giving them raw cash.
- 24gttghh 8y agoI'll be honest and say I don't go to the library very often. But, I too will fight alongside you to protect libraries.