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The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”
- chris_mc 8y agoIf you think libraries are useless, try going to one a few times and talk to the staff about the services they provide. I'd personally say libraries are one of the government organizations with the best return on investment, because education and information are almost invaluable. I'll fight a war over libraries, no joke.
- Sharlin 8y agoLast time I read a library-related discussion on HN, one of the sentiments expressed was basically ”I download ebooks, why would anyone need a library?” Boggles the mind. There was also a bizarre comment about libraries being only funded to keep a bunch of otherwise useless civil servants employed.
- pixl97 8y ago>”I download ebooks, why would anyone need a library?” Pretty much the tech version of "I am a W.A.S.P., I pretend everybody that has different economic, social, and cultural differences from me doesn't exist"
- Sharlin 8y agoThey’re not wrong when they say that the greatest privilege of all is the blissful lack of awareness of your privileges.
- dmreedy 8y agoor, more typically in my experience, (and somewhat more worryingly), "I don't understand that people with economic, social, and cultural differences exist". To paraphrase Eddie Izzard, it's like the traveling Briton visiting Afghanistan. "Sausage, egg and chips please... you do speak English, you just don't try!"
- pbhjpbhj 8y agoIzzard - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GkjwfrJo6uc# https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GkjwfrJo6uc#
- ihsw3 8y agoThis kind of racist horseshit has no place anywhere.
- bsagdiyev 8y agoIn case anyone else was confused like me: W.A.S.P. is White Anglo-Saxon Protestant (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Anglo-Saxon_Protestant https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Anglo-Saxon_Protestant)
- anoncoward111 8y agoFun fact about WASPs: back in the day, they used to hang signs that said "No Irish Need Apply". Even though Irish people are quite genetically similar to English people, and indeed today in America most bloodlines are mixed, the English still felt a need to classify Irish and Italians as "Ethnic White".
- rayiner 8y agoExcept library usage correlates with the opposite of what you're suggesting: http://www.pewinternet.org/2015/09/15/who-uses-libraries-and-what-they-do-at-their-libraries http://www.pewinternet.org/2015/09/15/who-uses-libraries-and.... Different ethnicities use libraries at almost exactly the same rate, and lower-income and lower-education households use libraries less than higher-income, higher-education households. Library use is declining across the board, but especially quickly in rural communities, among those with less than a high school degree, and among African americans.
- Sharlin 8y agoThat’s not really a counterargument to what the OP said. Most likely Internet usage is also lower in lower-income, less educated demographics, and the Internet and other media content that is consumed is of lower quality (tabloids, Fox News, etc.) It’s almost tautological that less well educated are, well, less well educated. And low-income-but-employed people often can’t afford to spend time consuming quality media, free or not, because leisure time itself is a luxury. There are a bunch of deep-rooted systemic problems here that the ”tech will solve everything” people conveniently ignore.
- cdoxsey 8y agoExcept statistically W.A.S.P.s are no less likely to use a library: http://www.pewinternet.org/2015/09/15/libraries-at-the-crossroads/2015-09-15_libraries_1-02-2/ http://www.pewinternet.org/2015/09/15/libraries-at-the-cross...
- dang 8y agoThis comment breaks the HN guidelines, which ask you not to bring extraneous flamebait into threads. If you could please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and follow the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it. Edit: looks like you've done this more than once and also posted a bunch of unsubstantive comments. Could you please fix this? We're trying for somewhat better here.
- BurningFrog 8y agoLet me steelman that argument. Libraries were invented because information was only available on printed (or hand written) books, which were very expensive and scarce resources. Now information can be available almost literally for free and instantly, to anywhere. If the institutional inertia of libraries didn't exist today, would they really be invented as they are? https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Steel_man https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Steel_man
- nxc18 8y agoAs they exist today: free access to computers and internet. Information is only literally free and instant if you have access to the internet, which isn't gauranteed especially for low income people.
- dsr_ 8y agoIn many places, libraries provide free access to computers and the Internet, especially for but in no way limited to low income people. Libraries adapt to the times, you know. And they still have books.
- robrenaud 8y agoFor a librarian's salary, one could subsidize lots of internet for low income people.
- toomuchtodo 8y agoOr we could take the intelligent route and use taxes to pay for both.
- kaitai 8y agoLibraries in the US serve an enormous homeless population. "Subsidizing internet for low income people" is easy to say but does not address the practicalities of providing internet to the homeless, for instance.
- darpa_escapee 8y ago
- realbarack 8y agoMany libraries (including San Francisco, where I am a member) even offer e-books and audiobooks. I switched to reading almost exclusively on my kindle, but I still get the vast majority of books for free from the library.
- knowuh 8y agoI download ebooks from my library.
- djhworld 8y ago> ”I download ebooks, why would anyone need a library?” The "I'm alright jack" mentality
- Spivak 8y agoLet's phrase it another way. If all you care about is information access you could replace libraries with country-wide digital catalogue of media and software, a program to subsidize the cost of computing devices and internet for people with low-income, and some public internet cafes. This doesn't at all capture what libraries actually do but the argument that we could be doing information access better and cheaper really just comes down to how the numbers come out.
- zjaffee 8y agoThe answer is because many libraries provide not only free access to ebooks, but you can also often time get actual e-readers on loan from them.
- rayiner 8y ago> because education and information are almost invaluable Citation needed.
- noja 8y ago> Citation needed. Ask a librarian.
- paulcole 8y agoIsn't this like asking a cosmetic surgeon if you need a nose job?
- rayiner 8y agoIs a librarian going to give me sound statistical research, or regurgitate shibboleths about the importance of education?
- ashelmire 8y agoThere's something ironic about a lawyer and university employee decrying education. Perhaps we should hit you over the head a few times until you forget everything you've ever learned and see how well the rest of your life turns out?
- rayiner 8y agoNothing ironic about it. Lawyers in the U.S. typically need seven years of education (a four-year college degree, and a three-year JD). In the U.K., they manage with a 3 to 4-year LLB. In the U.S., everyone is required to go to high-school through grade 12. In Germany, 40% of people finish at grade 10. Both the U.K. and Germany manage to have world class economies with substantially less education than the U.S. The U.S. is over educationalized, and part of the reason is that people are inundated with pablum like "education is almost invaluable."
- ashelmire 8y ago
- rb808 8y ago> try going to one This is probably the best hint that they might not be so useful. The truth is most people never go to libraries.
- romaniv 8y agoSome users of this website might never go to libraries, but every time I go to our local library there are tons of people there.
- prolikewh0a 8y agoEvery Seattle Public Library branch I go to is packed full every single day they're open, especially people using their computers.
- droopyEyelids 8y agoMost people don't go to hospitals either. At any given moment they're probably serving less than .5% of the population.
- bovermyer 8y ago"Most people," huh? Got a source for that?
- 394549 8y ago>>> try going to one >> This is probably the best hint that they might not be so useful. The truth is most people never go to libraries. > "Most people," huh? Got a source for that? His real name must be "Most People" and what he said is entirely an anecdote describing his own personal habits and preferences.
- zeugmasyllepsis 8y agoThe truth is, plenty of people go to libraries. By my local library's annual 2017 report, they have 625,000 active library card holders which collectively visited the library over 10 million times. [1] This is one of the busiest library systems in the country, but shows that, at least within a local region, libraries may be heavily used. [1] https://kcls.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/20/2018/03/2017-Year-in-Review-WEB.pdf https://kcls.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/20/2018/03/2017-Ye...
- epalmer 8y agoMy oldest daughter (26 years old) works at a library part-time in circulation. In December she will get her masters and be able to become a librarian. Libraries are more than books, they are maker spaces, community spaces, learning pods and so much more. We are bullish on libraries. However, libraries have to keep updating their services and offer community engagement services.
- trgn 8y agoIt's a beautiful profession too. There's several librarians in my family across 3 generations, and they all love their work. I think it's something about helping people, in a calm, welcoming environment, the work is a real good fit for bookish but social people.
- sixdimensional 8y agoHow does one become a librarian? I've thought about it my whole life. It almost feels like the vocation I've been called to but never realized.
- epalmer 8y agoA masters in Library Science or equivalent is almost always required. Typically (from my casual research) people are hired that have other prior library experience and can show a lifelong love of books. New masters degrees (master in information science at Fla State for example) have an ability to have more exposure to UI design, media creation, digital metadata and more.
- mehblahwhatevs 8y agoRealistically, and I mean no disrespect to the profession or your daughter who is studying it, but why is a degree required here? And a master's at that? What exactly do they do that requires knowledge? My assumption is they shelve books, maybe make recommendations, and hold weekly community events? And nowadays, help with social services like helping people create resumes and what not?
- probably_wrong 8y agoI visited Vancouver's public library last year. The library offers wifi, internet computers, professional computers exclusively for stuff like Photoshop, recording booths, musical instruments, organizes weekly events and, of course, books. If all you have is this library and time, you could pick up an instrument, learn how to play it, record a weekly podcast/vlog with your progress, edit the video, upload it to Youtube, and design your own artwork. Don't know how to do one of these things? Go pick up a book on it. You can launch an entire career for almost nothing. I'd like to see Amazon do that. I bring this specific case because, to me, it's an example of all a public library can be when we consider them a public service rather than a burden.
- sixdimensional 8y agoYes, this is exactly how I feel. Libraries and the services they offer can be an instrument for people to bring themselves out of poverty and for people to be able to grow and advance through education. I personally think of it like this - if I didn't have a job, where would I "go to work every day"? If I didn't have an income, and I couldn't get a job, I could go to a library. And a library could be the key to me finding a job, or work, or making it for myself. A library is a positive place to go with something to do, when otherwise, maybe I would have nothing, which can help me. My personal desire is not to disrupt libraries, but instead the opposite - to actually extend what they do until it gives even more people a chance to start their own business, find their own careers, or simply learn and educate themselves for work or pleasure. Lest we forget, that library science is the foundation of information science!
- nojvek 8y ago> I'll fight a war over libraries, no joke. No kidding. One of the best(worst) ways wars were waged in the past were to burn the libraries. Without knowledge, a civilization quickly suffocates. I don't think many would argue against, lending knowledge and technology as a way to help poor countries, rather than just giving them raw cash.
- 24gttghh 8y agoI'll be honest and say I don't go to the library very often. But, I too will fight alongside you to protect libraries.
- mcguire 8y ago"I refuse to accept that everything must be “disrupted” and turned into a moneymaking machine for tech elites. It’s absurd to suggest that Silicon Valley look to profit from one of the few institutions available across the entire country that doesn’t exist to make money for someone else. "Libraries are irreplaceable. Either discuss providing more funding for the invaluable work we do, or leave them alone." The Forbes editorial was spectacularly bizarre. Amazon? Weird that they're taken it down.
- classichasclass 8y agoAs a kid prior to this Internet thing, I used to spend hours in the microfiche section reading interesting articles. If I had some money, I'd print a couple to take home and let the toxic chemical smell follow me back when I read them later. Later on my little community library had cassette music to rent, so I enjoyed Paul Simon, the Manhattan Transfer and Alan Parsons. The magazine racks had all the back issues of computer magazines I could never find. I learned so much I would walk there on weekends and just spend an afternoon. I went back there a couple years ago and the microfiche area was now a bank of PCs and I didn't see the music section, but even though such things change, I'm glad my community library is still around for this generation to use. There's no means of discovery quite like browsing racks and finding some interesting journal or book you never knew existed.
- maym86 8y agoI'm sick of people going after things they don't use or understand that are valuable to people of lesser means while spewing the efficiencies of the free market. Amazon only makes as much money as it does because it manages to avoid paying tax while utilizing the infrastructure built and maintained by collecting taxes.
- Sharlin 8y agoBut hey, drones will solve the road use problem!
- rainbowmverse 8y agoI would like to see a library drone delivery program. I can already order a book from almost any library in the state and have it delivered to the local one. Having a drone take it the rest of the way is the next logical step. That would also help with accessibility for people who can't get to the library.
- ikeyany 8y agoThis is a Prime example of why tech workers are despised outside of our bubble.
- dionidium 8y agoThe bubble of tech workers is only equaled by the bubble of anti-tech activists. Most people don't have a stronger opinion about what you do than you do about whatever random thing they do.
- ikeyany 8y agoI'm sure bankers believe the same thing about themselves.
- jdminhbg 8y agoExcept there's survey data about this, and tech companies are the most respected and banks are the least: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/wells-fargo-is-least-respected-company-in-america--even-less-than-big-tobacco/2017/06/05/b59fb7a4-49ee-11e7-a186-60c031eab644_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.70f1007f1985 https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/wells-fargo-...
- jerkstate 8y agoWhen I was a young child, the library was a place for me to go to sit on a beanbag and read childrens books for hours while my mom studied for her masters degree. Now 2/3 of library patrons are homeless or struggling with addiction, and some parents may not wish to leave their children unattended in such an environment. I don't think Amazon has the answers but I see a natural tension between welcoming vagrants and making people with children comfortable.
- gbear605 8y agoBefore you propose altering libraries across the country to fix this, check to make sure that this is an issue that libraries across the country face. I suspect that this is an issue in cities, but not at all outside of them.
- nicodjimenez 8y agoLibraries: free internet for winos
- howard941 8y agoIt might help if shelters wouldn't throw their charges out at a 7:00 AM
- s73v3r_ 8y ago"Now 2/3 of library patrons are homeless or struggling with addiction," Citation needed.
- jerkstate 8y agoIt's from the article: > Some two-thirds of my patrons are homeless or struggling with addiction
- geebee 8y agoThat was a downside of the angle this article took. It makes the case for libraries on the grounds that they offer a place for addicts and homeless to be safe and sheltered and get basic support in accessing services. That's valuable, but it makes a library sound like a place where social workers deal with poverty and other social ills and field questions about how and where to get help. And while many people would support this, they'd support it in the same way they'd support a homeless shelter or government program to provide assistance for low income immigrants who speak limited English. I really don't want to come off as knocking the value a library adds here, those are worthy contributions. But overall, I think it does give a very limited impression of how libraries are valuable to the community overall. I'm encouraged by the stores people have left about the role the library functions in their own community. I bring my kids to the branch libraries in San Francisco regularly, and I'd like to reassure people that they are generally safe and clean places for kids and other members of the community.
- larkeith 8y agoPersonally, I cannot fathom finding it preferable, or even acceptable, for Amazon to attempt to displace my local library; Much like bookstores, there's an essential soul to them any corporate invader like Amazon lacks utterly. I have fond memories of summers spent trawling the stacks, afternoons at a table with friends working on homework, DnD sessions in the private meeting rooms, and browsing old stock auctions for the eclectic. Libraries and bookstores are some of the few holdouts of the bibliophile, and remain the best place to get recommendations or spend a quiet evening immersed in a novel - even if Amazon could somehow fulfill each of the numerous services of a modern library, the idea of losing such a wonderful refuge to corporate uniformity is abhorrent.
- rayiner 8y agoExpenditure of public money on an endeavor should not be driven by romantic notions like whether something has "essential soul." Tax money is a scarce resource. Money that's spent on libraries is tax money that's not available to offer better lunches to needy children. That's the calculus. Our county library system gets $22 million a year in tax dollars to service 2.4 million visits. Could Amazon meet those needs more cheaply? If so, that is a win.
- cocacola1 8y agoTo bad Amazon bookstores are such a disappointment.
- CPLX 8y ago> Could Amazon meet those needs more cheaply? If so, that is a win. I question your premise. There are other KPI's in this world besides numerical financial efficiency.
- maym86 8y agoInstead of worrying about whether school lunches or libraries should be prioritized let's focus on getting Amazon to pay its fair share in taxes so we can have both. In Alameda county we recently had a vote to raise taxes to fund libraries and it passed overwhelmingly - 76% voted yes. The people here think they're valuable.
- zitterbewegung 8y agoAll of the local libraries near me have a 3D printer. One library close by offers a coworkers space I can borrow a Roku and aLaptop. . Libraries don't need distruption they are already doing it themselves.
- maxxxxx 8y agoThat's one thing I have noticed at the libraries close to me. They are pretty good at adapting to the needs of their neighborhood and pretty creative. They seem to be one of the places where poor people get exposed to things they typically would never be able to use. 3D printers are one example.
- Fricken 8y agoMy local libraries are converting into makerspaces. They have green screens, sound studios, mac pros with Adobe creative suite software, 3D printers, Lego mindstorms, and a bunch of other stuff. Knowledge that can be printed is now abundant, but vernacular knowledge remains scarce, and the libraries in my city are becoming a storehouse for that knowledge. It's pretty cool.
- glup 8y agoout of interest, what city?
- spamizbad 8y agoNot OP, but the Chicago Public Library system has essentially those amenities available at the Harold Washington Library Center.
- zitterbewegung 8y agoAlso, the suburbs of Chicago was the area I was harping on before.
- Fricken 8y agoEdmonton.
- geebee 8y agoI'm largely in agreement with this Vox piece, but I think there's much more to say in defense of libraries as well. I have a friend who found a red envelope with some money in it in a book that he'd checked out of the library. He figured it belonged to whoever had checked the book out earlier, so he went into the branch and mentioned it. They said that they could find out the last person to read the book, but no more than that, because by and large, librarians (at least in that system) deliberately avoided keeping long term records of what people are reading, to safeguard privacy rights. Can you imagine Netflix or Amazon, Google or Facebook behaving this way? Could be that I'm from an older generation, but there was a time when people considered the idea of an institution having a long and complete list of everything you've read more than creepy, it was terrifying. Add in cell phone tracking devices that show where we are, map apps that show where we go at what time and what routes we take, commence sites that show what we buy and consider buying. You know for a while there it was impossible to remove a film from your recently watched list on Netflix? (the tech advice was to just select a bunch of stuff randomly and bury it deep if you didn't want it sitting there for everyone else to see the next day). Libraries don't play nearly as much of a role in making sure that people can access information privately as they used to, they've been shoved out of the way, but they were far more principled guardians of it than tech companies (I mean, night and day, they were guardians, tech companies are rapacious violators of this principle).
- romaniv 8y agoThis is a very important point. Libraries do more than just lend books. They are institutions that preserve and promote knowledge and have certain values "built in". They also often serve as local community centers of sorts. Having cheap books available in Kindle store does not fully replace functionality of a library.
- cdubzzz 8y ago> They also often serve as local community centers of sorts. The public libraries in Seattle are an amazing thing. My wife goes to "kids play time" with our ten month old son at a couple of different libraries every week. And we can also bring him in to the kids play area any time and take the kids area books on the honor system. It's a really great way to interact with other kids until we start using day care or he gets to preschool age. And it gives my wife a chance to meet other parents and get a break.
- peter_vukovic 8y agoWhy would anyone put Amazon and a library in the same sentence is beyond me, let alone contrast and compare them then argue against libraries. The Forbes editorial in question should be publicly displayed in all libraries as an example of poor judgment and lack of civility. Bizzare.
- wu-ikkyu 8y agoSounds like sponsored content.
- frgtpsswrdlame 8y agoSo Forbes takes the op-ed down and says: “Forbes advocates spirited dialogue on a range of topics, including those that often take a contrarian view,” a Forbes spokesperson says in a statement. “Libraries play an important role in our society. This article was outside of this contributor’s specific area of expertise, and has since been removed.” [0] Forbes op-ed's are filled to the brim with people speculating about things that are not their specific area of expertise and yet none of it is removed. I think this article was supposed to be a submarine [1] which went viral in a negative context and so has been quickly swept away. [0] https://qz.com/1334123/forbes-deleted-an-op-ed-arguing-that-amazon-should-replace-libraries/ https://qz.com/1334123/forbes-deleted-an-op-ed-arguing-that-... [1] http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html
- howard941 8y agoThe fact the piece was taken down from the web supports the need for physical libraries where access and preservation trump spur-of-the-moment reactions. It's much harder to deep-six elements of collections from IRL libraries.
- andrepd 8y agoIn other words, private company does the right thing only insofar as the negative publicity would hurt its bottom line. Nothing to see here.
- AdmiralAsshat 8y agoThe best thing a library can do in this day and age is support something like Overdrive, which lets people with a library card digitally rent books to deliver to their Kindle or E-reader. Mine fortunately does, and despite the limited selection, it's great: I can check stuff out without even leaving home. The "books" are automatically returned after the check-out period. That's it. If Silicon Valley wants to help, they can work on enhancing the technology that allows stuff like that to work. If they want to replace a bedrock of this country's public services with private, for-profit infrastructures, they can go pound sand.
- maxxxxx 8y agoIn the end Silicon Valley wants to make money and control the distribution of content. They hate the principle of libraries and would kill them off quickly.
- brianzelip 8y agoLibraries provide lots of value for non-“impoverished, underserved, and most vulnerable populations” too. I manage a maker space in an academic library on a health sciences campus. I collaborate with researchers to bring new ideas to life, and provide free public workshops around emerging technologies (for example, creating a 3D printable anatomical model from CT scan data, leveraging GitHub for scholarship, and more). My colleagues provide instructional workshops as well, and collaborate with researchers around systematic reviews, bioinformatics, and research data management.
- Fomite 8y agoI make all my graduate students make an appointment with a research librarian when they start working on their dissertation. I may have told one of them, in a fairly serious tone, that "Librarians know the deep magics." Because man a good librarian will solve all kinds of problems you didn't even know you had. ...I have a meeting with one on Monday to talk about archiving a government website that went down due to budget cuts, taking one of the most comprehensive collections of clinical guidelines down with it.
- nicodjimenez 8y agoLibraries have already been disrupted and in fact have mostly pivoted to providing free internet to people who need it.
- TimJYoung 8y agoIf you're going to have copyright and intellectual property, then you need libraries, period. You can't charge money for such goods and completely cut off access to those that can't afford them. You need a balance between compensating the hard work of the creators and making sure that all citizens have access to their own culture, especially children. I also host a software development meetup at our local library, and I'm pretty sure that this is commonplace in the software meetup/user group world. Even Thomas Sowell, a man that isn't fond of government ventures, frequently talks about how important libraries were to his intellectual development as a child.
- kazen44 8y ago> If you're going to have copyright and intellectual property, then you need libraries, period. You can't charge money for such goods and completely cut off access to those that can't afford them. i strongly agree with this point. Freedom to educate onselfes without using institutionalised education is also VITAL for a democracy to function properly. People seem to forget libraries are one of the only places one can gain new knowledge regardless of their economic state or status. (atleast, that is how it works in my country).
- strictnein 8y agoWay too much attention being paid to this topic because of an article by someone no one has ever heard of, which he paid over $1000 to publish.
- ironjunkie 8y agoI think there is a growing sentiment of disdain of Silicon Valley and tech in general. And I can see why, and it is getting more and more justified. As this article states, that arrogance to think that everything should/can be "disrupted". Usually the argument for disruption is always around another version of "making the world a better place", while it is very clear that the main motivation is to make a couple tech CEOs and tech workers even richer.
- jrs95 8y agoThere’s sort of an assumption that the status quo is some how morally superior though. And you have to keep in mind that journalists are a part of that status quo. We have one group of elites and their spokespeople bitching about the newcomer. Personally I’d take the tech douche over the academic or the bureaucrat.
- ironjunkie 8y agoThere is a lot of value in introducing new valid useful ideas. This is what Silicon Valley did 20 years ago. Now, the way a lot of people see it is as a set of elite smug overly-paid tech bros arrogantly trying to change every single unneeded part of life by "disrupting it". Which usually translates into yet another stupid useless app on your smartphone to order pizza.
- jrs95 8y agoYou’re really throwing the baby out with the bath water here, though. And you have to focus on either straw men or specific anecdotes of “disruption” in order to paint this negative overall picture. In the case of yet another app to order pizza...if nobody uses it or cares about it, then who gives a fuck? “We should be hostile to people who are in the business of creating technology because they might make something nobody wants to buy” does not make sense. Sure, maybe they’re smug and elitist idiots doing this stuff. But does it matter? And who is it that’s so interested in maligning tech as a whole? It’s their competitors in trying to accumulate wealth and power. Who, for what it’s worth, are even smugger and more elitist. Overall, my opinion of this article is that it’s too narrowly focused and while it’s opinionated it’s also shallow. This is all typical of media now though. Ultimately this is part of a larger political context, and I think the underlying motivation for this articles and others like it is no different from Alexandra Pelosi’s “San Francisco 2.0”.
- Jun8 8y ago"Yo, que me figuraba el Paraíso / Bajo la especie de una biblioteca. (I have always imagined Paradise as a kind of library)." - Borges Libraries, as physical places, have a sanctity about them and every discussion on "replacing libraries" have to take this into account, I think. It's the place where many people had their first ad hoc meeting with great writers there and had their real education, a notable example is Bukowski: "John Fante’s minor classic “Ask the Dust”; the book, which Bukowski accidentally discovered in the stacks of the Los Angeles Central Library, made a huge impression on him" (https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2005/03/14/smashed https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2005/03/14/smashed). This, the random browsing among physical books, is the most important aspect of a library for me, I usually spend 90% of my time in libraries doing precisely that. After I had my son I also came to appreciate the children's area and the activities there in our local library (e.g. write a letter to our hamster"). The PC help function mentioned in the article also seems to important and popular. As for being a sanctuary for homeless people or those struggling with addiction: My anecdotal experience has been that such patrons are a usually disruptive (and sometimes frightening) influence in most city libraries. They usually use the space to sleep (snoring is forbidden though!) and for other activities. It's hard to come up with a better solution, though.
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- harlanji 8y agoThe Library is literally the last place I can go as a homeless person to be left alone... I've been Tweeting about just this recently. The idea of Amazon taking over the library literally has tears in my eyes right now, in the middle of a public room: absolutely not. I grew up with no resources, uneducated parents, and the library was my refuge and why I made it to a successful position the first time. Take the Library away and I'm done for, and poor people never have a chance. > We give them a running start in helping improve their lives. Oh, you can check out books there, too.
- lovehashbrowns 8y agoI was never homeless but I was in such a bad place, mentally, when I was a teen and the library was my sanctuary. The 4th floor of the Harold Washington Library in downtown Chicago. :') I have so many really fond memories of that place. Finally getting peace and quiet away from home. Having a place where I could read things and study. Or just hide away from everything and myself. It makes me sad that there are people who want to get rid of these places. And what's worse is that they'd use exactly these reasons to get rid of them--the homeless and the recluses hang out there!
- dbg31415 8y agoHate the title. Something is either a good enough idea (or entrenched enough idea) to withstand disruption. Or it's not. If it's not... it sort of deserved to be replaced by something better. Libraries tend to be a good idea. That said... I haven't been to one in a decade. Not really sure what's changed in that time, hopefully they offer free wi-fi... and hopefully there aren't a row of creepy bums watching porn on the screens facing away from the door... Past that, wish them well. Everything in our lives should be subject to disruption -- that's how we make it better. Edit: Finished reading the piece. "Our library provides a space where they can use free computers and wifi, as well as access a climate-controlled environment with clean bathrooms and water. Many of our patrons arrive first thing in the morning from a homeless shelter and stay until a shuttle picks them up to take them back in the evening." Um... yeah, reading this I don't want a library to be a place to store homeless people. This creeps me out and makes me want to defund them. As a kid in the 90s I remember having to go to the library, from time to time, to do reports and class projects. It was creepy then to have bums looking at porn, and I'm sure it's still creepy. Not keen on having tax dollars go to fund this.
- EliRivers 8y agoWould you pay more tax in order to recreate homeless centres or other such so the libraries don't accidentally provide this service? It would seem a little rough to close libraries because they're forced by circumstance to pick up some of the fallout of other services having been cut already.
- hnbroseph 8y ago> replaced by something better i'm skeptical that an instance of any given thing being replaced or "disrupted" (a terrible buzz word) necessarily implies that the new thing is "better". there tends to be a lot of factors in play.
- s73v3r_ 8y agoThat's not necessarily how it works. If those who are trying to "disrupt" things have more money or more influence, which many times they do, then they get their way, despite what most people would want.
- topkai22 8y agoThe interesting thing on this thread is that while there is a general agreement libraries are high ROI government institutions and worth preserving, I don’t think anyone has defended the libraries role as a repository of books. I personally I am glad that these neighborhood book warehouses exist, we personally take our kids to checkout books about monthly. But as an adult? Almost all my check outs are via inter library loan, and even then my county’s selection of books as limited. Need a recent copy of a “home construction costs” estimator? Good luck. Looking for an obscure 70s novel your dad told you about? They threw it away in the 80s. A “national library” inter library loan system would be AMAZING. I know my college had something like that, but a single loan could cost $35-50. If a Seattle company (because, come on, Amazon isn’t Silicon Valley) could create a system that lowers that price to pennies per loan that disruption it would be a positive thing. And then we’d be even further along path we are on now-that we need libraries, but do libraries need books?
- vxNsr 8y agoI think your loan idea has some merit, if instead of replacing libraries they acted as the delivery boy for libraries, free of charge and didn't take the tax right off, that would be a net win. Because my guess is the biggest cost for that interlibary loan was the shipping.
- davegauer 8y agoYour experience mirrors mine exactly: we would go broke if we had to buy all of the picture books we checked out for our kids (sometimes on the order of 20/week). And for myself, the inter-library loan has been incredibly useful (especially for recent popular science titles). I also appreciate being able to browse the small selection of fiction/non-fiction at our local branch. As with the bookstore, I often pick up things I wouldn't dream of searching for online and would therefore never have found. I likewise wish my library system had more of a "long tail" stored somewhere.[1] Older books (no matter how popular and well-known they were at one time) are often simply not available. I had practically written off libraries when I was in my 20s: * The hours didn't mesh well with my work schedule * I could afford to buy whatever I was interested in * They never had the up-to-date programming books I wanted/needed That has changed completely now that I'm a parent. And yes, I do think libraries need books. Communities need books. This stuff needs to be available, even if just in principle. I was skeptical but surprised to find that my local library system has one copy each of: * Introduction to Algorithms * The Art of Computer Programming (vol 1) * The Pragmatic Programmer But the list of computer science classics they don't have is far larger. What they do have are a ton of of titles like _Teach Yourself Visual Basic.NET in 21 Days_ (real) and _Excel 14.2.32.rev13 for Boneheads_ (made up). No doubt it reflects what patrons are requesting...but I would personally wish for a collection that leans a little more heavily on the perennial classics. [1] http://www.dlib.org/dlib/april06/dempsey/04dempsey.html http://www.dlib.org/dlib/april06/dempsey/04dempsey.html
- tekstar 8y agoIf libraries didn't exist yet and someone came up with the idea in 2018, they would get laughed out of the room. This is why we must fight for their survival - if we lose them we won't be getting them back any time soon.
- sizzzzlerz 8y agoWhat joyless world it would be without libraries. Mine is in the heart of Silicon Valley. I visit nearly every week to exchange read books, videos, and CDs for new material. On Saturday morning, the parking lot is nearly full at opening time. Patronage is multi-cultural, reflecting the demongraphics of my city. The librarians are helpful and friendly. In recent elections, we've approved measures to increase property taxes to pay for extended hours, new materials, and other library activities. I'm sure there are libertarians that may think we're fools who enjoy paying taxes. To that, I give a hearty "fuck off"! A community is more that just low taxes and our library reflects that. I would strongly fight against anyone proposing we replace it with Amazon or any other entity that would never care except as a money-making center.
- mannykannot 8y agoI would like to see Mourdoukoutas live by his own principles and eschew his university's library and its no doubt extensive access to paywalled services, and use Amazon exclusively and at his own expense.
- jmpman 8y agohttps://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/18157 https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/18157
- sedachv 8y agoThe US government subsidizing Amazon in lieu of public libraries is disgusting.
- JoeDaDude 8y agoLibrarians sometime have to fight to defend their patrons privacy. Some might remember that in the wake of 9/11 there were thoughts that libraries could tip off law enforcement by tracking patrons reading preferences [1]. More recent treatment of the issues - and laws - about the privacy, or lack thereof, of library patrons is discussed in [2]. [1]. https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/FBI-checking-out-Americans-reading-habits-2826830.php https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/FBI-checking-out-Ame... [2]. https://www.thenation.com/article/librarians-versus-nsa/ https://www.thenation.com/article/librarians-versus-nsa/
- minikites 8y ago>in the wake of 9/11 Patron privacy has always been a bedrock of librarianship: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoia_Horn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoia_Horn >Horn was jailed for nearly three weeks for contempt of court after refusing to testify for the prosecution in the 1972 conspiracy trial of the "Harrisburg Seven" anti-war activists.
- bmmayer1 8y agoDoes anyone have a link to the archived original (now deleted) article? It's not possible to truly evaluate a critical piece without reading the piece it's responding to.
- ajuc 8y agoPiratebay + google is the ultimate library. Sadly it's illegal because it works too well.
- AlphaWeaver 8y agoSpeaking from a perspective of working in [one of the nicest libraries in the world][0], I think there's definitely room for technology to continue improving libraries and offering additional services, while continuing to maintain the heart and soul of what a library is. My library mentioned above may have discovered an insanely innovative way of storing books, but that allows the staff to help us more, not be reduced or replaced by computers. I think if all libraries strike this delicate balance, we'll be in good shape. [0]: https://www.lib.ncsu.edu/huntlibrary https://www.lib.ncsu.edu/huntlibrary
- jeffrogers 8y agoLibraries cache significant bits of history, especially local history. This history conatins source material not found anywhere else. The Internet is amazing, but Internet companies have no incentive to retain our history in perpetuity. All others benefits aside, this is enough to justify libraries in every community.
- yontherubicon 8y agoThere are tons of documents relevant to the local community that have no home but the local library, yet might be tremendously valuable for those who have roots there. Libraries are an essential community staple.
- benkarst 8y agoLibraries aren't so much about books, they're about a place where the homeless people can gather and read them. Seriously, I love libraries. I think we should apply the same idea for gyms.
- ben_jones 8y agoYou mean libraries wouldn't be better with ads?
- rainbowmverse 8y agoA whole lot of people in here are discovering their tax dollars collectively fund a wonderland of knowledge, tools, and access they had no idea about. It's great. Go to your local library today.
- pravinva 8y agoCan someone explain why a librarian needs to study library science,if the primary job of libraries today now is to act as a community center and a place for people in trouble to get help. Maybe they should hire people who are social workers
- samsa 8y agoSome libraries do in fact employ social workers (if memory serves San Francisco’s library is one). The primary purpose of libraries is not to serve as a community center, but we often end up as magnets for chronic homeless and addict populations because we are in many communities the only place where you can go and not have to buy something to be there.
- Fomite 8y agoLibrary science can include, but is not limited to: - Setting up and maintaining the kinds of programs people are talking about, be that resume editing or maker spaces, etc. - The finding and sorting of information. Note that's constantly one of the problems mentioned in the article - it's not just access to the internet, but the ability to use it to find very specific information.
- moate 8y agoArchivists. Nobody is talking about archivists. Many public libraries has physical archives that can't be digitized (clothes, memorabilia, etc) that needs to be preserved and taken care of. They serve to supplement and support museums and universities with these materials. Every anti-library piece that comes out generally boils down to "I don't use a library, and have little to no idea what services many of them provide outside of books. Therefor, someone who's better at books could take their place, and the free market is better than the state being in charge of this sort of stuff!" Not everything can, or should, be run like a business.
- FrozenVoid 8y agoIf libraries are so good, why students in US pay fortunes for books they need for studying?
- Fomite 8y agoMany libraries keep several copies of major course textbooks available. They can't however maintain potentially hundreds of copies of each book, so demand swamps them pretty fast.
- PurpleBoxDragon 8y agoBecause the students judge the utility of having a textbook available as worth the price (or in some cases the text books come with a code that you have to have to pass the class). Same reason a book collector may prefer buying a book over checking it out at the library. It is like asking if cooking for for yourself is so cheap and healthy, why do people eat out so much.
- squozzer 8y agoI will argue in favor of preserving "libraries" but let's first point out some flaws in author's reasoning. >But libraries are not just a place to find books — they’re one of the few places that provide a number of free services to the American public. Tax-payer funded != free. >Some two-thirds of our regular patrons fall into one of three categories: homeless, struggling with addiction, or recovering from addiction. Homeless shelter / addict sanctuary != library. >Libraries are irreplaceable. Either discuss providing more funding for the invaluable work we do, or leave them alone. I find the author's position a little binary or maybe unimaginative. What might help everyone - including taxpayers - is to re-think the community center model. If the library building is primarily a convenient refuge for addicts and indigents, then we should optimize for that. Fewer books, more bathrooms. If we still want to have publicly-accessible book repositories, could we combine them with other forms of community services, such as recreation?
- pretendscholar 8y ago>Tax-payer funded != free. That is the most pedantic, useless point that makes no contribution to the conversation. No direct charge for each patron is the obvious way you are supposed to interpret free.
- tanilama 8y agoDisruption recipe: 1. Claim something is not working, by mere claiming it. 2. Raising capital to subsidize the business and force the trafitional competitor out of the game. 3. Get hefty evaluation 4. Once reach the dominant market position, raise the price and profit :)
- pkaye 8y agoIs it really Silicon Valley disruption? It was just a Forbes writer who suggested it.
- gdubs 8y agoI'm a HUGE fan of libraries, but it seems this article is really underscoring a need for better homeless shelters and community centers. Personally, I'm in favor of my tax money going towards both. Libraries, on the surface, are about providing access to knowledge and tools. But by their nature they also provide sanctuary – in a similar way to a church or temple. They're quiet, often beautiful, inviting... Those qualities are why you can't just digitize the experience.
- songzme 8y agoI sympathize with the author. My nonprofit is working with our local library to provide coding bootcamp for anyone who wants to learn (for free). We've been piloting for 3 months in San Jose and the whole experience has been very eyeopening to me. One of our students, Mani, couldn't afford a laptop. He would go to the library when it opens to work on a website and hopes that he could one day make ad revenue. He was able to find books, borrow a laptop, and learn by himself. There are many people like him who finds solace in the library because it is one of the few places left that doesn't try to sell you something. At the library, they feel welcome. In the past 3 months I've seen more diversity than I have ever seen in my career at Silicon Valley. People of all races and all walks of life come to learn and it was an amazing sight watching college students learn and teach alongside with adults making a career switch. I love the library and what it represents: A non judgemental place that welcomes everybody to come learn. It would break my heart to see it become part of an organization that optimizes for profit margins. Here's the webarchive link to the original Forbes article: https://web.archive.org/web/20180722160053/https://www.forbes.com/sites/panosmourdoukoutas/2018/07/21/amazon-should-replace-local-libraries-to-save-taxpayers-money/ https://web.archive.org/web/20180722160053/https://www.forbe...
- Fomite 8y ago"...one of the few places left that doesn't try to sell you something." I think this is hugely important. The library is a third space that doesn't require spending money.
- singhrac 8y agoThis is really important - Starbuck's (mostly successful) attempts to become the central third space in city centers is almost definitely leading to class divides. Libraries are one of the few refuges left.
- dougmwne 8y agoThank you for linking to the Forbes piece. It's interesting that once deleted, it would have been impossible to read without the efforts of the good people at archive.org. It's interesting that deleting the op-ed effectively demonstrates another great value of libraries. Without them, the copyright holders can make it almost impossible to view anything they'd prefer you not see, even right in the middle of a public debate around said work. The op-ed itself is also chillingly corporate-elitist, while simultaneously being childish. Let them eat cake and drink Starbucks.
- rayiner 8y agoThe "libraries provide Internet access for poor people" argument is incredibly disingenuous. To use an example: My county spends about $22 million per year on its library system. There's about 500,000 people, about 5.9% of whom are under the poverty line. For what we spend on libraries, we could pay for a 4G smartphone and 4G LTE service to literally every single man, woman, and child under the poverty line. And we would have money left over to pay for targeted support services to teach people how to use them. And unlike libraries, that would be a benefit almost everyone would actually use.
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- rainbowmverse 8y agoYou should go to a library some time.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- kashyapc 8y agoSlightly related: I was recently remote-working from a peaceful book café and discovered this just-released book titled Book Towns[1] sitting sitting across me. I flipped through it and immediately bought it. Have a gander at it. From its description: The so-called “Book Towns” of the world are dedicated havens of literature, and the ultimate dream of book lovers everywhere. Book Towns takes readers on a richly illustrated tour of the 40 semi-officially recognized literary towns around the world and outlines the history and development of each community, and offers practical travel advice. And here's[2] an article (written by the author) about it in The Guardian. https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2018/apr/26/10-worlds-best-book-towns-france-spain-south-korea-usa https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2018/apr/26/10-worlds-bes... [1] https://www.quartoknows.com/books/9780711238930/Book-Towns.html https://www.quartoknows.com/books/9780711238930/Book-Towns.h...
- neuromantik8086 8y agoAs someone who works in an academic library (which has very different needs from a public library), while I would disagree that libraries need "disruption" (which conjures up imagery of a librarian shushing me in the stacks for talking), there is a real need for tech talent. Most techies are lured away from programming for libraries by the private sector, which leaves us with an overabundance of clunky, expensive software with high technical debt.
- neuromantik8086 8y agoAnother problem is that librarians themselves sometimes don't have the technical (in the sense of computing literacy; "technical" is a bit of loaded term in libraries because it can refer to collection maintenance [0]) skills necessary to do well in their jobs. Sometimes this is due to the era the librarian started in (a lot of librarians got their MLIS degree before computing was as prominent as it is now and haven't adapted to changes brought about by technology), other times this is due to curricular shortcomings in library schools (anecdotally, the University of Michigan, University of Washington and University of Indiana-Bloomington library schools seem to be exceptions to this). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_technical_services https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_technical_services
- tingletech 8y agoInteresting, on the other hand I've worked with a lot of technically sophisticated librarians and archivists.
- tingletech 8y agoThe academic library is a weird environment to be a programmer in. Tenured/tenured tracked (or quasi-academic, as the case may be) librarians think of you as a para-professional librarian rather than a professional in your own right (and call you "techie"). On the one hand you have MARC21 (originally designed for printing catalog cards), and on the other hand MARC is supposedly being phased in favor of many competing flavors of RDF. The academic library fetishizes standards built on esoteric technology. There are a lot of fun projects though, and as a programmer I get the feeling that I'm really making an impact. (I'm not on a campus any more, more of an academic library consortium). I do think (hope) that Open Access initiatives will eventually disrupt the high costs of licensing academic publishing (the academy pays for the research in the first place, and then pays a second time to get access to it again). If research products were open, then there would not be a demand for something like Sci-Hub. Even when you consider ILS and OPAC migration projects, the on-line collections budget dwarfs the technology budget in libraries.
- triviatise 8y agoAustin just built a $150 million library which is a huge waste of money, if all it did was provide a storehouse for books. However, it is a community center where the community can get together. That is one of the key charges of a city. Libraries are like parks, while parks let us recreate outdoors, libraries let us recreate intellectually indoors, and athletic centers let us recreate physically indoors. The austin library has kitchens for cooking classes etc. Conference rooms for community groups, class rooms, etc. We had a techshop, but they couldnt survive. Techshop is exactly the type of thing a library could provide. Access to machines and education on how to design and build things. While I voted against the bond that funded the library, I recognize that there is definitely value that the "free market" cant provide. The same goes for parks, hike/bike trails, nature preserves, museums, pools, athletic centers etc.
- neuromantik8086 8y agoAs an aside, it's not super well publicized, but anyone in NYC can access Lynda.com for free via the NYPL.
- zjaffee 8y agoI believe the same is true for anyone in Los Angeles as well.
- nojvek 8y ago“I refuse to accept that everything must be “disrupted” and turned into a moneymaking machine for tech elites. It’s absurd to suggest that Silicon Valley look to profit from one of the few institutions available across the entire country that doesn’t exist to make money for someone else.” This is a powerful stamenent. Love it!
- timwaagh 8y agoso american libraries are actually free then? where i am they are not. merely cheap. they get used as internet cafes with a bunch of bookshelves gathering dust. getting books is something that has already largely been replaced as the most useful books are the ones they do not have. yes the service is primarily used by poor people. also by me. but i am pretty sure the market can fill the gap of 'internet cafe'. in fact i'd love it if one opened up here again. i am not sure whether i like subsidizing librarian salaries and especially maintaining a useless librarian education program with my tax pay. I just dont think its justified to send people to school for four years to learn for this. also their opening times are sub-par because it is the public sector. privatisation would benefit me, as they'd quickly realize internet cafes would need to stay open in the evening. right now they just outcompete private internet cafes. not because they are cheaper, but because they have superior marketing presence, paid for with tax. i have nothing against librarians. like the author says they are usually nice people who are indeed quite willing to help. i am sure the trade will continue to exist, just like we still have postmen internet cafes would still need attendants to help people use the computers and the printer.
- crb002 8y agoIf I had the funds I would found a mercantile library in Des Moines. Publics are horrid for STEM books. Research universities are remote in the US. The skilled trades from plumbing to programming get marginalized by everyone.
- yontherubicon 8y agoI must say I'm rather dissappointed in the writing quality of someone who purports to be an MFA candidate in Creative NonFiction. Though this may be more the fault of the blogstyle medium than antyhing else. It is still better than the middle-school level writing of the editorial the author is responding to. As for the points made therein, I'm a bit disgusted. The library was conceived as a place for anyone to go to elevate himself by learning. It is meant for a kind of public education. It is not a homeless shelter. Miss Oliver's claim that the library must exist to shelter the low detracts from it's original purpose, to educate the young and old. Furthermore, Miss Oliver's argument, that we should keep the libraries for the homeless and the addicts jettisons the role of the library as a community center. How can one be comfortable leaving their children at a library when 75% of the patrons are current/former addicts and or homeless? I love libraries. I grew up in them. I don't think Amazon should replace them (though I do think Amazon would do well to sponsor them, utilizing their distribution channels, repository of ebooks, and even publishing library editions via their print-on-demand services). However, Miss Olivers essay is more an argument to end libraries rather than to save them.
- UncleEntity 8y ago> Furthermore, Miss Oliver's argument, that we should keep the libraries for the homeless and the addicts jettisons the role of the library as a community center. A lot of homeless people are just having a bit of bad luck and a few steps in the right direction will have them be non-homeless people is short order. If you live paycheck to paycheck and then don't have a paycheck anymore then things go bad real quick. > How can one be comfortable leaving their children at a library when 75% of the patrons are current/former addicts and or homeless? The main Phoenix library has a whole floor dedicated to teens and apparently enforce it as I heard some "homeless addicts" talking about getting kicked off the floor really quickly the last time I was there. It makes a lot more sense now.
- yontherubicon 8y ago> A lot of homeless people are just having a bit of bad luck and a few steps in the right direction will have them be non-homeless people is short order. If you live paycheck to paycheck and then don't have a paycheck anymore then things go bad real quick. I absolutely sympathize, and I think that safety nets are important insofar as we as a society can guarantee them. However, the library is not the place for that. If someone is homeless and wishes to spend their time reading, then so be it. However, most people are homeless due to mental illness, not lack of jobs. And drug addicts have non-negligible increased rates of criminality and impulsive or violent behavior. Libraries, as halls of learning, and thus for a people centered around learning, a community center, must be safe.
- HeadsUpHigh 8y agoJust what kind of broken, corrupt soul puts the terms library and disruption in the same sentence and thinks "hmm, that makes sense"...