23 ms·

The Ambien Diaries

117 points by gpresot 8y ago

mawburn 8y ago
I kind of knew that people took Ambien for recreational use, but for the life of me I can't see why. The thing I hated the most about it was that I acted completely blackout drunk, but I felt perfectly normal and in control. Only to wake up the next day embarrassed about what kind of rediculous things I did or said online. I can't see why anyone would want to do that intentionally. After it stops being able to put you to sleep, it is just a burden.
- deleted 8y ago
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justinator 8y ago
I've had good friends commit suicide while there was Ambien in their system. Not a drug I would take recreationaly, or with a prescription. In fact, if they would like to remove it from the market, I would be in support.
- AznHisoka 8y ago
  Ambien is really a scary drug. I once had panic attacks while on it, where I really thought I was on the verge of a heart attack. When Roseanne tweeted that racist twist, and blamed Ambien, a lot of people ridiculed her. The company who made Ambien even stepped up to claim Ambien doesn't make you racist. But I thought if the worst Ambien can do is make you spew out racist tweets, you're lucky.
  - justinator 8y ago
    I kind of agree that you will have to be a racist first to act like a racist while on Ambien. Saying that (and not trying to be flippant about the previous statement, or the follow statement), I hope Roseanne can find an alternative to whatever she was prescribed Ambien for.
    - DonHopkins 8y ago
      Apparently it also makes her color blind. "I thought the bitch was white!!" https://www.theguardian.com/culture/video/2018/jul/21/i-thought-the-bitch-was-white-roseanne-barr-on-valerie-jarrett-tweet-video https://www.theguardian.com/culture/video/2018/jul/21/i-thou...
      - deleted 8y ago
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  - VectorLock 8y ago
    Assuming she actually was on Ambien and not using it as a convenient scapegoat.
    - bduerst 8y ago
      Considering she's still retweeting QAnon BS, I'm not surprised everyone is leaning toward the latter.
- xor1 8y ago
  It should be illegal. I had a prescription when I was 20. The first three times I took it, I had no issues. Swallowed, immediately laid down in bed, then knocked out ten minutes later. The fourth time, I had to deal with something after I had taken it. I didn't fall asleep. I remember going back to my desk, looking into my PC case (it had plastic windows on the side so you could see inside), and beginning to hallucinate. The cabling inside stretched out into a landscape and it felt like I was looking at the horizon on some alien Giger-esque planet. Then I blacked out and woke up to see I had added a bunch of high school friends on LinkedIn. Nothing bad happened thankfully, but I never took it again. At least when you black out on alcohol, your motor abilities are severely impaired, to the point that you're just as likely to simply pass out before you make it outside. With ambien, your body isn't limited by anything, but you still have no control over your actions. The safest alternative is edibles.
  - lazyasciiart 8y ago
    > At least when you black out on alcohol, your motor abilities are severely impaired, to the point that you're just as likely to simply pass out before you make it outside. That may be true for you, but it is completely false as a general statement. It is quite possible and very common for someone to be blacked out on alcohol while still functioning, sometimes appearing sober enough that people around them have no idea - they can carry on conversations, drive somewhere, hook up and have sex, it has even been used as defence in a murder case.
  - gnulinux 8y ago
    I had almost too similar of an experience to you (check my comment above) but I disagreed with your last paragraph. Ambien made me physically paralyzed and I was trapped to my bad for hours, hallucinating, in a state of confusion to the point I couldn't remember who and where I was. It can be pretty unpredictable.
jlmorton 8y ago
> It was in 2005, my freshman year of college, that I took my first Ambien. > These were the frontier days of the internet I'm not sure 2005 qualifies as the frontier days of the Internet.
- macintux 8y ago
  Yeah, about 25 years too late for that. 10 years too late to be frontier days for the web.
  - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
    I'm not arguing that 2005 was in any way the beginning of the internet, but it was definitely the beginning of another epoch - Facebook, World of Warcraft, and YouTube were all brand new, and we were just two years away from the smartphone. Did online games, social media, and video sites exist before then? Oh yeah, absolutely, but things were becoming supercharged and life eating.
    - macintux 8y ago
      There's little doubt that we could use some standardized terms for different eras of the Internet, but I would characterize Facebook and YouTube as harbingers of the end of the frontier days.
      - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
        Absolutely. All of a sudden cities popped up that took up the cultural mindshare. You didn't search any more, you googled.
      - ska 8y ago
        I don't think "harbinger" is the right word here, I would reserve that for dot-bomb companies and services like myspace. That time (2000ish) had some pretty clear signals where things were going, while also being clear that it wasn't worked out yet. By the time Facebook/YouTube/etc. showed up, the frontier was already a memory, and it was more a question of see who the big winners were going to be.
bxtt 8y ago
I've been taking Ambien on and off for the past 8 years. Stretches where I've taken Ambien for a consecutive year. I've done exactly what the author talks about: write long incoherent but beautifully written poetry, dive deep into studies and journals about the most random subjects, and have auditory hallucinations. But, what she doesn't talk about is the horror stories that come with it. I've destroyed countless relationships. I've had friends that refuse to pick up any of my calls after 12am. I've crashed my car into a tree because of sleep eating. I've withdrawn from the medication, and don't sleep for 3-4 days. I've taken Ambien, then drank an entire bottle of wine, and the next morning to find out that I took 6 more Ambiens. I should be dead. If you haven't taken Ambien in the past, and are interested, I would just avoid it at all costs.
- endorphone 8y ago
  I took Ambien for four months (the sort of period it should normally be used for...even that pushes the upper limit) after a very loud and public event kicked off by severe sleep deprivation and stress. It worked wonderfully. I'd take it and lie down and quickly fade off to a sort of sleep. I say sort of because apparently it isn't really a sleep, and doesn't have all of the benefits of sleep, but it was far better than the narcolepsy I was experiencing. I looked forward to taking Ambien because it made the sleep process so effortless and nice. I renewed prescriptions and would actually think ahead to the moment when I got to enjoy an Ambien. Then my insurance stopped covering it. The price is quite low, but it was a flag to me that I should probably stop: The system had said that I'd hit the limit of what I should take. So I stopped. That was it. Never had sleep walking. No weird phone calls. No "Walrus". When I took one I always did it with the intention of sleep, and immediately preparing for sleep. So that is my counterpoint, I suppose. Real sleep is far better, but as an actual sleep aid, especially in high stress, it...works. Should anyone abuse it for other purposes? Absolutely not. Should they try to use it for a high? No, of course not.
  - gameswithgo 8y ago
    If the drug has a non trivial chance of making you lose your mind, and no way to identify that it will do that without losing your mind, it might not be appropriate to ever use it, even if it works well for some people.
cik2e 8y ago
It just made me sleep, which is what I had it for to begin with. Tried to use it recreationally once and ended up falling asleep at a concert. I'll stick with the intended usage.
Zimahl 8y ago
Ambien is serious stuff. It works and people take it because some sleep is better than no sleep but a large subset of them have serious side effects. I'm not talking about the litany of 'standard' side effects you hear in RX commericals, I'm talking about weird shit. Black outs, sleep sex, voices, hallucinations, etc, it's not something to be trifled with. I'm terribly surprised it isn't more regulated than it is.
mgkimsal 8y ago
My wife takes it... not regularly, but perhaps 5-6 times per year, to deal with sleep issues. From what I can tell, there's no real side effects for her - she gets a decent sleep, and is refreshed. I took it 2x about 10 years ago - first time was... a bit spaced out after I woke up. Second time a few nights later I had probably the most horrific nightmare I'd ever had. Never touched it again.
bitexploder 8y ago
Sleep is a fickle thing. I think some sleep habits are programmed into us when we are young (theory based on anecdotal observation with my kids and talking with others over the years). That said, having a shut down process and consistent schedule is really important. Getting rid of blue light, not eating several hours before bed, relaxing with less stimulatong activity, taking some Melatonin. Melatonin is not habit forming really works well for most people based on sleep studies. You still need the shutdown process, and then Melatonin boosts you into a sleep state. Excercising is also important for setting up good sleep. I think this is all most people need to do if they just have minor trouble falling asleep. Moderate to severe sleep issues can be symptoms of something else.
notadoc 8y ago
Abusing sleeping pills is a great way to make it very difficult for people who actually need sleeping pills to not be able to get sleeping pills. This applies equally to many other medications too, including the freshly politically demonized effective pain relievers at the heart of the latest media driven moral panic. It only takes a few fools to ruin something for the responsible majority.
- djohnston 8y ago
  i don't think this is true. healthcare has a litany of issues in america but i don't think it's common to pull controlled substances from the market because of black market abuse. am i wrong here?
  - mawburn 8y ago
    Part of the reason why Quaaludes were pulled was due to recreational abuse, but there might have been other reasons.
    - TylerE 8y ago
      Much more dangerous than Ambien (or the other Z-drugs). A dangerous/fatal overdose could be as low as 4-5x the therapeutic dose, especially if mixed with alcohol. The Z-drugs, on the other hand, you can't really overdose on - at least not, as with 'Ludes', in the "stop breathing and die" sense.
      - DanBC 8y ago
        I agree the z drugs are much safer, but there have been deaths by overdose of zopiclone.
    - refurb 8y ago
      That was pretty much the reason.
  - lazyasciiart 8y ago
    Isn't that what happened to pseudoephedrine? Went from being OTC to very hard to get because of recreational use.
Jtsummers 8y ago
I took ambien for a few weeks in grad school. I had to stop. 1) They say it's not habit forming. That may be true. But I intended to take it during the week, when I needed it most. On the weekends I wanted to stay up a bit later (not crazy, midnight versus 10pm. However, if I didn't take the ambien by 10:30pm I'd start to get a vicious migraine, that first weekend without it was miserable. I took it for a couple more weeks but the same thing happened each weekend. 2) About half the time it had no impact on me. I was wide awake and concious the entire night. Not able to focus well (entirely unproductive), but awake. I'd even eliminated caffeine by this point in an earlier (and ongoing) effort to counter my insomnia. But if I took it at 10 and hadn't fallen asleep by 11, I knew I'd be up until the next night. 3) When I did "sleep", there was a 50/50 chance I'd wake up with abs that felt like I'd been doing crunches all night long. I don't know what I was doing. I felt rested, but man was I sore. I continued therapy and quit grad school in efforts to deal with my anxiety, and only after that was my insomnia properly dealt with. Which is a reminder, treat the condition not the symptoms.
- e40 8y ago
  Which is a reminder, treat the condition not the symptoms. This needs repeating, over and over again. So much about western medication is about treating symptoms.
  - nradov 8y ago
    That's a rather weak criticism of a complex system of medicine. In many cases it's impossible to get a clear diagnosis of the underlying condition, and so treating the symptoms is the only practical option. Given that we have limited resources and imperfect knowledge, what's the alternative?
    - e40 8y ago
      Yeah, not the way I look at it. The system of medicine (in the US, at least) is totally geared toward treating symptoms with a prescription. Case in point: I was on prilosec for years. I weaned myself off it by moved to another over the counter med, but I was able to completely stop taking that went I went on a low carb diet--my reflux completely went away, which was a great surprise to me. At the time I was taking prilosec, the 90's, it was one of the most profitable drugs on the planet. There is a great incentive for doctors to just treat the symptom. Btw, the reason I stopped taking prilosec: I had a followup endoscopy and saw from the video that the lining of my stomach was, rather than being smooth, completely covered in small bumps. When I asked the doc about it, he said they were harmless. After quizzing him about it, it was pretty clear that opinion wasn't backed by science, but the consensus among his peers. That was the last day I took prilosec.
googlemike 8y ago
I watched one of my (former) best friends, after Rowing practice at a top notch Ivy League school, take Ambien recreationally. It was terrifying to witness. He was someone else entirely, rambling, yelling, looking through me. I got the hell out of there.
limeblack 8y ago
I really like sleep and I have been on Ambien and Seroquel(off label) for sleep. At first it helped but if you really really like sleep I say the withdrawal is not worth the benefit of the extra sleep. Coming off them I didn't sleep for several days and my sleep schedule became really screwed up. I am still on something for sleep for this reason. Some studies show you go insane after 3-4 days of no sleep. I can confirm it definitely feels like that. If you plan to take it for life I guess but withdrawals can be miserable.
- GW150914 8y ago
  Seroquel off label... for sleep?! Seroquel is a pretty hefty neuroleptic, with all of many adverse effects implied. Does your doctor discuss the possible long term impact of its use?
  - limeblack 8y ago
    No the doctor didn't give the long term consequences. I am not encouraging this. This is way more common then people think[1]. [1] https://nationalpost.com/health/seroquel-for-insomnia https://nationalpost.com/health/seroquel-for-insomnia
    - GW150914 8y ago
      Whoa... thanks for the article. I’m shocked, but I guess shouldn’t be surprised.
  - ClassyJacket 8y ago
    Seroquel is horrible. Half of one tablet made me feel so drained I could barely function thru half of the following day.
howard941 8y ago
My physician won't prescribe these to me; I've asked a number of times. In lieu of the Z drug [1] I was given a prescription for temazepam [0]. At first temazepam was great but lost effectiveness after a few weeks and made me feel anxious the morning after. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temazepam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temazepam [1] https://www.tuck.com/z-drugs-nonbenzodiazepines/ https://www.tuck.com/z-drugs-nonbenzodiazepines/
- alex_hitchins 8y ago
  Sorry, did you say you were prescribed temazepam as a sleep aid? I only thought this was used for chronic pain suffers to aid sleep. I know my grandfather was on it as without it the pain kept him awake indefinitely.
  - howard941 8y ago
    Yes, just as a sleep aid only.
ljw1001 8y ago
I was on ambien for several years. Over time I developed sleep walking, cooking etc. I once needed stitches after walking into a book case. Another time I mistakingly took my ambien I the morning instead of a different medicine. Passed out behind the wheel on a major highway. My sleeping was never good even on it. I switched to neurontin for RLS and some CBTI for getting to sleep. The combination has been far more helpful for me than ambien, and without side effects.
jdpigeon 8y ago
I wrote an assignment in my undergrad neuropsychopharmacology course that the hallucinations and abnormal behaviour ambien causes might be due to a similar mechanism of action as ketamine. I was almost entirely going off my own recreational experiences, but I think I managed to find some paper linking GABA-A antagonism to NMDAR glycine binding. Also, because someone hasn't shared it yet, the Ambien Walrus: http://ambien.blogspot.com/2010/12/ambien-walrus-collection.html http://ambien.blogspot.com/2010/12/ambien-walrus-collection....
- camtarn 8y ago
  The cartoons are great, but the comments thread below is pure gold, intermingled with some scary. "Most people probably think handcuffs in the bedroom are sexy, but you and I both know mine are just to keep me from driving my car at night."
  - camtarn 8y ago
    ...and, further down, some really tragic. "Ambien destroyed my life and I remember nothing of what happened. It has now been over five years since your lovely Ambien walrus convinced me to try to end my life and well as the lives of my children. We didn't go on any shopping spread or driving excursions, not that I remember, apparently he wanted more from me than my money, he wanted my life and the reasons I lived for. My children are fine, thank God, even though now I will never see them again. Its been five years and a month since the last time I remember seeing them. I have been stuck in the legal system since then and it seems never ending. I will never again have the life I once had. I won't get to see my children graduate, I will never get another hug or snuggle from them. I did get my life from them. My nine year old son ran for help and saved all of us and I am thankful for that. Before any of you take ambien, think of what can go wrong. I am the poster child of what can go wrong on ambien and I was crucified in the media for it and I will spend the rest of my life paying for it. My name is Rebecca Koehler and I am from Oklahoma. Google it. It happened March 2, 2011. Never let it happen to you."
yawaramin 8y ago
I've never taken Ambien, but I have heard the voices the author describes. I think they're fairly normal while falling asleep–they're called hypnagogic auditory hallucinations: https://patient.info/doctor/hypnagogic-hallucinations https://patient.info/doctor/hypnagogic-hallucinations > Auditory hallucinations are common but other senses are seldom involved. Auditory hallucinations can range from a few sounds to an elaborate melody. Threats or criticism are also reported. In my case, sometimes it's music (usually quite beautiful, and forgotten the next morning) and sometimes like a news broadcaster conveying quite a lot of information (again, quite forgotten the next day).
pdfernhout 8y ago
Matthew Walker, a sleep expert, says sleep aids like Ambien are counter-productive. https://www.drugrehab.com/addiction/prescription-drugs/ambien/sleeping-without-ambien/ https://www.drugrehab.com/addiction/prescription-drugs/ambie... "Dangers aside, Ambien and other hypnotics don’t necessarily provide you the kind of sleep your body actually needs. In his book, “Why We Sleep,” Matthew Walker, director of the Center for Human Sleep Science at the University of California, Berkeley, argues that the sleep people get from taking hypnotics doesn’t have the same restorative quality as natural sleep. In an interview with New York Magazine, Walker explains that drugs like Ambien simply “switch off the top of your cortex, the top of your brain, and put you into a state of unconsciousness.” The drugs actually sedate you, he says, and “sedation is not sleep.” The good news for those who desperately crave sleep is that a variety of techniques and methods can help you achieve a blissful state of slumber without prescription medications. Here’s a look at some good ways to reboot your sleep cycle. ..." Discussed at length in his book: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34466963-why-we-sleep https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34466963-why-we-sleep Also mentioned in this review: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/10/better-than-ambien/543771/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/10/better-th... "At last comes an explanation: According to the new book Why We Sleep, by Matthew Walker, the director of the Sleep and Neuroimaging Lab at the University of California, Berkeley, the sleep people get on sleeping pills like Ambien is not true sleep. Drugs like these simply “switch off the top of your cortex, the top of your brain,” he explained to New York Magazine, “and put you into a state of unconsciousness.” That’s not sleep; that’s cryogenics. According to Walker, sleeping-pill sleep doesn’t have the same restorative powers—and there are lots, from an immune boost to emotional resilience—as good, old-fashioned zzzzs. Sleeping pills don’t even seem to work all that well. It’s true that some people say they fall asleep faster and sleep better on pills. But, as Walker writes, there’s little difference between the amount of time it takes someone to fall asleep with the help of a pill, compared to a placebo. Even a newer drug, suvorexant, only helps people fall asleep four to eight minutes faster, according to one study he describes. In addition to causing daytime grogginess, Walker argues, Ambien impairs memory and increases the risk of cancer and death. “Do you feel differently about using or continuing to use sleeping pills having learned about this evidence?” he asks the reader. This reporter does. Luckily, there is a better way. Walker recommends something known as CBT-I, or cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia. A major part of it is proper “sleep hygiene”—well-known advice like keeping the bedroom dark and cold, using your frigid cave-bed only for sleep and sex, and turning off anything that emits light a few hours before bed. ..." Note that, as Walker explains in this interview with Joe Rogan, if you are not dreaming at night due to alcohol or drugs, your brain may start making you dream when you are awake, leading to hallucinations. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwaWilO_Pig&feature=youtu.be&t=402 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwaWilO_Pig&feature=youtu.be...
librarianscott 8y ago
It just helps me fall asleep and stay asleep. Never had any issues unlike with melatonin, Benadryl, etc.
pseingatl 8y ago
Ambien is an incredibly dangerous drug. Look up "Ambien Zombies." The stories are incredible: the criminal justice system can't handle sleep walking, sleep driving and sleep murder. In its more benign form, the zombification can lead to binge eating. If you wake up and the family pet is missing and there's a bloody mess in the kitchen, you know what happened. Look up the case of Tom Tuduj, though he is but one of many. Tom killed Gary Poter, who was a developer linked to Barack Obama through Tony Rezko, a Chicago-area fundraiser. There are many other, horrible cases. Stay away from Ambien.
dreamcompiler 8y ago
All this talk about how horrible Ambien is and how it should be banned, and yet no discussion of dosage? Ambien effects are extremely dose-sensitive. I've taken it for years to help me sleep and have never had an unpleasant experience or amnesia. That's probably because I've never taken more than 5 mg; usually 3 mg is enough. 10 mg for an average-sized adult is edging into the danger zone, and at 20 mg you'd better have somebody sober in the house to take away your car keys. I suspect that in many cases doctors are simply prescribing doses that are too large.
sizzle 8y ago
Question to the insomniacs in this thread: Have you tried meditation/ mindfulness? Curious if clearing your mind and relaxation techniques would allow you to combat the anxiety of being worried of not falling asleep that causes you to not sleep properly? If not, why haven't you tried it?
thanatropism 8y ago
Long-term user of benzos who never took Ambien here: the way people describe it, Ambien is dangerous. Long half-life benzos like Klonopin and Valium are not. I only had a mild hazy kick the first two times I took Klonopin (and I was starting on two or three other meds at once); since then, I've used anything from 4mg to .25mg and never had trouble titrating either up or down. I don't have much of an anxiety problem if I skip my Klonopin altogether (it destabilizes my manic-depression, for which I'm stuffed with medications but titrate Klonopin for marginal effect; but nothing the day I stop Klonopin, only if I'm at ~2mg and skip it for a day. The literature is slowly catching up too. A while ago there was a full moral panic about benzodiazepines, but I feel like this is part of the full moral panic about psych drugs (some of which is justified, because people (and sometimes unethical docs) are looking for answers in drugs that often aren't there.)

117 points by gpresot 8y ago

I kind of knew that people took Ambien for recreational use, but for the life of me I can't see why. The thing I hated the most about it was that I acted completely blackout drunk, but I felt perfectly normal and in control. Only to wake up the next day embarrassed about what kind of rediculous things I did or said online. I can't see why anyone would want to do that intentionally. After it stops being able to put you to sleep, it is just a burden.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

justinator 8y ago

I've had good friends commit suicide while there was Ambien in their system. Not a drug I would take recreationaly, or with a prescription. In fact, if they would like to remove it from the market, I would be in support.

AznHisoka 8y ago
Ambien is really a scary drug. I once had panic attacks while on it, where I really thought I was on the verge of a heart attack. When Roseanne tweeted that racist twist, and blamed Ambien, a lot of people ridiculed her. The company who made Ambien even stepped up to claim Ambien doesn't make you racist. But I thought if the worst Ambien can do is make you spew out racist tweets, you're lucky.
- justinator 8y ago
  I kind of agree that you will have to be a racist first to act like a racist while on Ambien. Saying that (and not trying to be flippant about the previous statement, or the follow statement), I hope Roseanne can find an alternative to whatever she was prescribed Ambien for.
  - DonHopkins 8y ago
    Apparently it also makes her color blind. "I thought the bitch was white!!" https://www.theguardian.com/culture/video/2018/jul/21/i-thought-the-bitch-was-white-roseanne-barr-on-valerie-jarrett-tweet-video https://www.theguardian.com/culture/video/2018/jul/21/i-thou...
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
- VectorLock 8y ago
  Assuming she actually was on Ambien and not using it as a convenient scapegoat.
  - bduerst 8y ago
    Considering she's still retweeting QAnon BS, I'm not surprised everyone is leaning toward the latter.
xor1 8y ago
It should be illegal. I had a prescription when I was 20. The first three times I took it, I had no issues. Swallowed, immediately laid down in bed, then knocked out ten minutes later. The fourth time, I had to deal with something after I had taken it. I didn't fall asleep. I remember going back to my desk, looking into my PC case (it had plastic windows on the side so you could see inside), and beginning to hallucinate. The cabling inside stretched out into a landscape and it felt like I was looking at the horizon on some alien Giger-esque planet. Then I blacked out and woke up to see I had added a bunch of high school friends on LinkedIn. Nothing bad happened thankfully, but I never took it again. At least when you black out on alcohol, your motor abilities are severely impaired, to the point that you're just as likely to simply pass out before you make it outside. With ambien, your body isn't limited by anything, but you still have no control over your actions. The safest alternative is edibles.
- lazyasciiart 8y ago
  > At least when you black out on alcohol, your motor abilities are severely impaired, to the point that you're just as likely to simply pass out before you make it outside. That may be true for you, but it is completely false as a general statement. It is quite possible and very common for someone to be blacked out on alcohol while still functioning, sometimes appearing sober enough that people around them have no idea - they can carry on conversations, drive somewhere, hook up and have sex, it has even been used as defence in a murder case.
- gnulinux 8y ago
  I had almost too similar of an experience to you (check my comment above) but I disagreed with your last paragraph. Ambien made me physically paralyzed and I was trapped to my bad for hours, hallucinating, in a state of confusion to the point I couldn't remember who and where I was. It can be pretty unpredictable.

jlmorton 8y ago

> It was in 2005, my freshman year of college, that I took my first Ambien. > These were the frontier days of the internet I'm not sure 2005 qualifies as the frontier days of the Internet.

macintux 8y ago
Yeah, about 25 years too late for that. 10 years too late to be frontier days for the web.
- SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
  I'm not arguing that 2005 was in any way the beginning of the internet, but it was definitely the beginning of another epoch - Facebook, World of Warcraft, and YouTube were all brand new, and we were just two years away from the smartphone. Did online games, social media, and video sites exist before then? Oh yeah, absolutely, but things were becoming supercharged and life eating.
  - macintux 8y ago
    There's little doubt that we could use some standardized terms for different eras of the Internet, but I would characterize Facebook and YouTube as harbingers of the end of the frontier days.
    - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
      Absolutely. All of a sudden cities popped up that took up the cultural mindshare. You didn't search any more, you googled.
    - ska 8y ago
      I don't think "harbinger" is the right word here, I would reserve that for dot-bomb companies and services like myspace. That time (2000ish) had some pretty clear signals where things were going, while also being clear that it wasn't worked out yet. By the time Facebook/YouTube/etc. showed up, the frontier was already a memory, and it was more a question of see who the big winners were going to be.

bxtt 8y ago

I've been taking Ambien on and off for the past 8 years. Stretches where I've taken Ambien for a consecutive year. I've done exactly what the author talks about: write long incoherent but beautifully written poetry, dive deep into studies and journals about the most random subjects, and have auditory hallucinations. But, what she doesn't talk about is the horror stories that come with it. I've destroyed countless relationships. I've had friends that refuse to pick up any of my calls after 12am. I've crashed my car into a tree because of sleep eating. I've withdrawn from the medication, and don't sleep for 3-4 days. I've taken Ambien, then drank an entire bottle of wine, and the next morning to find out that I took 6 more Ambiens. I should be dead. If you haven't taken Ambien in the past, and are interested, I would just avoid it at all costs.

endorphone 8y ago
I took Ambien for four months (the sort of period it should normally be used for...even that pushes the upper limit) after a very loud and public event kicked off by severe sleep deprivation and stress. It worked wonderfully. I'd take it and lie down and quickly fade off to a sort of sleep. I say sort of because apparently it isn't really a sleep, and doesn't have all of the benefits of sleep, but it was far better than the narcolepsy I was experiencing. I looked forward to taking Ambien because it made the sleep process so effortless and nice. I renewed prescriptions and would actually think ahead to the moment when I got to enjoy an Ambien. Then my insurance stopped covering it. The price is quite low, but it was a flag to me that I should probably stop: The system had said that I'd hit the limit of what I should take. So I stopped. That was it. Never had sleep walking. No weird phone calls. No "Walrus". When I took one I always did it with the intention of sleep, and immediately preparing for sleep. So that is my counterpoint, I suppose. Real sleep is far better, but as an actual sleep aid, especially in high stress, it...works. Should anyone abuse it for other purposes? Absolutely not. Should they try to use it for a high? No, of course not.
- gameswithgo 8y ago
  If the drug has a non trivial chance of making you lose your mind, and no way to identify that it will do that without losing your mind, it might not be appropriate to ever use it, even if it works well for some people.

cik2e 8y ago

It just made me sleep, which is what I had it for to begin with. Tried to use it recreationally once and ended up falling asleep at a concert. I'll stick with the intended usage.

Zimahl 8y ago

Ambien is serious stuff. It works and people take it because some sleep is better than no sleep but a large subset of them have serious side effects. I'm not talking about the litany of 'standard' side effects you hear in RX commericals, I'm talking about weird shit. Black outs, sleep sex, voices, hallucinations, etc, it's not something to be trifled with. I'm terribly surprised it isn't more regulated than it is.

mgkimsal 8y ago

My wife takes it... not regularly, but perhaps 5-6 times per year, to deal with sleep issues. From what I can tell, there's no real side effects for her - she gets a decent sleep, and is refreshed. I took it 2x about 10 years ago - first time was... a bit spaced out after I woke up. Second time a few nights later I had probably the most horrific nightmare I'd ever had. Never touched it again.

bitexploder 8y ago

Sleep is a fickle thing. I think some sleep habits are programmed into us when we are young (theory based on anecdotal observation with my kids and talking with others over the years). That said, having a shut down process and consistent schedule is really important. Getting rid of blue light, not eating several hours before bed, relaxing with less stimulatong activity, taking some Melatonin. Melatonin is not habit forming really works well for most people based on sleep studies. You still need the shutdown process, and then Melatonin boosts you into a sleep state. Excercising is also important for setting up good sleep. I think this is all most people need to do if they just have minor trouble falling asleep. Moderate to severe sleep issues can be symptoms of something else.

notadoc 8y ago

Abusing sleeping pills is a great way to make it very difficult for people who actually need sleeping pills to not be able to get sleeping pills. This applies equally to many other medications too, including the freshly politically demonized effective pain relievers at the heart of the latest media driven moral panic. It only takes a few fools to ruin something for the responsible majority.

djohnston 8y ago
i don't think this is true. healthcare has a litany of issues in america but i don't think it's common to pull controlled substances from the market because of black market abuse. am i wrong here?
- mawburn 8y ago
  Part of the reason why Quaaludes were pulled was due to recreational abuse, but there might have been other reasons.
  - TylerE 8y ago
    Much more dangerous than Ambien (or the other Z-drugs). A dangerous/fatal overdose could be as low as 4-5x the therapeutic dose, especially if mixed with alcohol. The Z-drugs, on the other hand, you can't really overdose on - at least not, as with 'Ludes', in the "stop breathing and die" sense.
    - DanBC 8y ago
      I agree the z drugs are much safer, but there have been deaths by overdose of zopiclone.
  - refurb 8y ago
    That was pretty much the reason.
- lazyasciiart 8y ago
  Isn't that what happened to pseudoephedrine? Went from being OTC to very hard to get because of recreational use.

Jtsummers 8y ago

I took ambien for a few weeks in grad school. I had to stop. 1) They say it's not habit forming. That may be true. But I intended to take it during the week, when I needed it most. On the weekends I wanted to stay up a bit later (not crazy, midnight versus 10pm. However, if I didn't take the ambien by 10:30pm I'd start to get a vicious migraine, that first weekend without it was miserable. I took it for a couple more weeks but the same thing happened each weekend. 2) About half the time it had no impact on me. I was wide awake and concious the entire night. Not able to focus well (entirely unproductive), but awake. I'd even eliminated caffeine by this point in an earlier (and ongoing) effort to counter my insomnia. But if I took it at 10 and hadn't fallen asleep by 11, I knew I'd be up until the next night. 3) When I did "sleep", there was a 50/50 chance I'd wake up with abs that felt like I'd been doing crunches all night long. I don't know what I was doing. I felt rested, but man was I sore. I continued therapy and quit grad school in efforts to deal with my anxiety, and only after that was my insomnia properly dealt with. Which is a reminder, treat the condition not the symptoms.

e40 8y ago
Which is a reminder, treat the condition not the symptoms. This needs repeating, over and over again. So much about western medication is about treating symptoms.
- nradov 8y ago
  That's a rather weak criticism of a complex system of medicine. In many cases it's impossible to get a clear diagnosis of the underlying condition, and so treating the symptoms is the only practical option. Given that we have limited resources and imperfect knowledge, what's the alternative?
  - e40 8y ago
    Yeah, not the way I look at it. The system of medicine (in the US, at least) is totally geared toward treating symptoms with a prescription. Case in point: I was on prilosec for years. I weaned myself off it by moved to another over the counter med, but I was able to completely stop taking that went I went on a low carb diet--my reflux completely went away, which was a great surprise to me. At the time I was taking prilosec, the 90's, it was one of the most profitable drugs on the planet. There is a great incentive for doctors to just treat the symptom. Btw, the reason I stopped taking prilosec: I had a followup endoscopy and saw from the video that the lining of my stomach was, rather than being smooth, completely covered in small bumps. When I asked the doc about it, he said they were harmless. After quizzing him about it, it was pretty clear that opinion wasn't backed by science, but the consensus among his peers. That was the last day I took prilosec.

googlemike 8y ago

I watched one of my (former) best friends, after Rowing practice at a top notch Ivy League school, take Ambien recreationally. It was terrifying to witness. He was someone else entirely, rambling, yelling, looking through me. I got the hell out of there.

limeblack 8y ago

I really like sleep and I have been on Ambien and Seroquel(off label) for sleep. At first it helped but if you really really like sleep I say the withdrawal is not worth the benefit of the extra sleep. Coming off them I didn't sleep for several days and my sleep schedule became really screwed up. I am still on something for sleep for this reason. Some studies show you go insane after 3-4 days of no sleep. I can confirm it definitely feels like that. If you plan to take it for life I guess but withdrawals can be miserable.

GW150914 8y ago
Seroquel off label... for sleep?! Seroquel is a pretty hefty neuroleptic, with all of many adverse effects implied. Does your doctor discuss the possible long term impact of its use?
- limeblack 8y ago
  No the doctor didn't give the long term consequences. I am not encouraging this. This is way more common then people think[1]. [1] https://nationalpost.com/health/seroquel-for-insomnia https://nationalpost.com/health/seroquel-for-insomnia
  - GW150914 8y ago
    Whoa... thanks for the article. I’m shocked, but I guess shouldn’t be surprised.
- ClassyJacket 8y ago
  Seroquel is horrible. Half of one tablet made me feel so drained I could barely function thru half of the following day.

howard941 8y ago

My physician won't prescribe these to me; I've asked a number of times. In lieu of the Z drug [1] I was given a prescription for temazepam [0]. At first temazepam was great but lost effectiveness after a few weeks and made me feel anxious the morning after. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temazepam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temazepam [1] https://www.tuck.com/z-drugs-nonbenzodiazepines/ https://www.tuck.com/z-drugs-nonbenzodiazepines/

alex_hitchins 8y ago
Sorry, did you say you were prescribed temazepam as a sleep aid? I only thought this was used for chronic pain suffers to aid sleep. I know my grandfather was on it as without it the pain kept him awake indefinitely.
- howard941 8y ago
  Yes, just as a sleep aid only.

ljw1001 8y ago

I was on ambien for several years. Over time I developed sleep walking, cooking etc. I once needed stitches after walking into a book case. Another time I mistakingly took my ambien I the morning instead of a different medicine. Passed out behind the wheel on a major highway. My sleeping was never good even on it. I switched to neurontin for RLS and some CBTI for getting to sleep. The combination has been far more helpful for me than ambien, and without side effects.

jdpigeon 8y ago

I wrote an assignment in my undergrad neuropsychopharmacology course that the hallucinations and abnormal behaviour ambien causes might be due to a similar mechanism of action as ketamine. I was almost entirely going off my own recreational experiences, but I think I managed to find some paper linking GABA-A antagonism to NMDAR glycine binding. Also, because someone hasn't shared it yet, the Ambien Walrus: http://ambien.blogspot.com/2010/12/ambien-walrus-collection.html http://ambien.blogspot.com/2010/12/ambien-walrus-collection....

camtarn 8y ago
The cartoons are great, but the comments thread below is pure gold, intermingled with some scary. "Most people probably think handcuffs in the bedroom are sexy, but you and I both know mine are just to keep me from driving my car at night."
- camtarn 8y ago
  ...and, further down, some really tragic. "Ambien destroyed my life and I remember nothing of what happened. It has now been over five years since your lovely Ambien walrus convinced me to try to end my life and well as the lives of my children. We didn't go on any shopping spread or driving excursions, not that I remember, apparently he wanted more from me than my money, he wanted my life and the reasons I lived for. My children are fine, thank God, even though now I will never see them again. Its been five years and a month since the last time I remember seeing them. I have been stuck in the legal system since then and it seems never ending. I will never again have the life I once had. I won't get to see my children graduate, I will never get another hug or snuggle from them. I did get my life from them. My nine year old son ran for help and saved all of us and I am thankful for that. Before any of you take ambien, think of what can go wrong. I am the poster child of what can go wrong on ambien and I was crucified in the media for it and I will spend the rest of my life paying for it. My name is Rebecca Koehler and I am from Oklahoma. Google it. It happened March 2, 2011. Never let it happen to you."

yawaramin 8y ago

I've never taken Ambien, but I have heard the voices the author describes. I think they're fairly normal while falling asleep–they're called hypnagogic auditory hallucinations: https://patient.info/doctor/hypnagogic-hallucinations https://patient.info/doctor/hypnagogic-hallucinations > Auditory hallucinations are common but other senses are seldom involved. Auditory hallucinations can range from a few sounds to an elaborate melody. Threats or criticism are also reported. In my case, sometimes it's music (usually quite beautiful, and forgotten the next morning) and sometimes like a news broadcaster conveying quite a lot of information (again, quite forgotten the next day).

pdfernhout 8y ago

Matthew Walker, a sleep expert, says sleep aids like Ambien are counter-productive. https://www.drugrehab.com/addiction/prescription-drugs/ambien/sleeping-without-ambien/ https://www.drugrehab.com/addiction/prescription-drugs/ambie... "Dangers aside, Ambien and other hypnotics don’t necessarily provide you the kind of sleep your body actually needs. In his book, “Why We Sleep,” Matthew Walker, director of the Center for Human Sleep Science at the University of California, Berkeley, argues that the sleep people get from taking hypnotics doesn’t have the same restorative quality as natural sleep. In an interview with New York Magazine, Walker explains that drugs like Ambien simply “switch off the top of your cortex, the top of your brain, and put you into a state of unconsciousness.” The drugs actually sedate you, he says, and “sedation is not sleep.” The good news for those who desperately crave sleep is that a variety of techniques and methods can help you achieve a blissful state of slumber without prescription medications. Here’s a look at some good ways to reboot your sleep cycle. ..." Discussed at length in his book: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34466963-why-we-sleep https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34466963-why-we-sleep Also mentioned in this review: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/10/better-than-ambien/543771/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/10/better-th... "At last comes an explanation: According to the new book Why We Sleep, by Matthew Walker, the director of the Sleep and Neuroimaging Lab at the University of California, Berkeley, the sleep people get on sleeping pills like Ambien is not true sleep. Drugs like these simply “switch off the top of your cortex, the top of your brain,” he explained to New York Magazine, “and put you into a state of unconsciousness.” That’s not sleep; that’s cryogenics. According to Walker, sleeping-pill sleep doesn’t have the same restorative powers—and there are lots, from an immune boost to emotional resilience—as good, old-fashioned zzzzs. Sleeping pills don’t even seem to work all that well. It’s true that some people say they fall asleep faster and sleep better on pills. But, as Walker writes, there’s little difference between the amount of time it takes someone to fall asleep with the help of a pill, compared to a placebo. Even a newer drug, suvorexant, only helps people fall asleep four to eight minutes faster, according to one study he describes. In addition to causing daytime grogginess, Walker argues, Ambien impairs memory and increases the risk of cancer and death. “Do you feel differently about using or continuing to use sleeping pills having learned about this evidence?” he asks the reader. This reporter does. Luckily, there is a better way. Walker recommends something known as CBT-I, or cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia. A major part of it is proper “sleep hygiene”—well-known advice like keeping the bedroom dark and cold, using your frigid cave-bed only for sleep and sex, and turning off anything that emits light a few hours before bed. ..." Note that, as Walker explains in this interview with Joe Rogan, if you are not dreaming at night due to alcohol or drugs, your brain may start making you dream when you are awake, leading to hallucinations. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwaWilO_Pig&feature=youtu.be&t=402 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwaWilO_Pig&feature=youtu.be...

librarianscott 8y ago

It just helps me fall asleep and stay asleep. Never had any issues unlike with melatonin, Benadryl, etc.

pseingatl 8y ago

Ambien is an incredibly dangerous drug. Look up "Ambien Zombies." The stories are incredible: the criminal justice system can't handle sleep walking, sleep driving and sleep murder. In its more benign form, the zombification can lead to binge eating. If you wake up and the family pet is missing and there's a bloody mess in the kitchen, you know what happened. Look up the case of Tom Tuduj, though he is but one of many. Tom killed Gary Poter, who was a developer linked to Barack Obama through Tony Rezko, a Chicago-area fundraiser. There are many other, horrible cases. Stay away from Ambien.

dreamcompiler 8y ago

All this talk about how horrible Ambien is and how it should be banned, and yet no discussion of dosage? Ambien effects are extremely dose-sensitive. I've taken it for years to help me sleep and have never had an unpleasant experience or amnesia. That's probably because I've never taken more than 5 mg; usually 3 mg is enough. 10 mg for an average-sized adult is edging into the danger zone, and at 20 mg you'd better have somebody sober in the house to take away your car keys. I suspect that in many cases doctors are simply prescribing doses that are too large.

sizzle 8y ago

Question to the insomniacs in this thread: Have you tried meditation/ mindfulness? Curious if clearing your mind and relaxation techniques would allow you to combat the anxiety of being worried of not falling asleep that causes you to not sleep properly? If not, why haven't you tried it?

thanatropism 8y ago

Long-term user of benzos who never took Ambien here: the way people describe it, Ambien is dangerous. Long half-life benzos like Klonopin and Valium are not. I only had a mild hazy kick the first two times I took Klonopin (and I was starting on two or three other meds at once); since then, I've used anything from 4mg to .25mg and never had trouble titrating either up or down. I don't have much of an anxiety problem if I skip my Klonopin altogether (it destabilizes my manic-depression, for which I'm stuffed with medications but titrate Klonopin for marginal effect; but nothing the day I stop Klonopin, only if I'm at ~2mg and skip it for a day. The literature is slowly catching up too. A while ago there was a full moral panic about benzodiazepines, but I feel like this is part of the full moral panic about psych drugs (some of which is justified, because people (and sometimes unethical docs) are looking for answers in drugs that often aren't there.)