14 ms·
It's become comedy at this point. Many, many developers: "We hate this keyboard. It is atrocious! Give us back the old one please!" Apple: "We have listened
by blhack 8y ago
It's become comedy at this point.
Many, many developers: "We hate this keyboard. It is atrocious! Give us back the old one please!"
Apple: "We have listened to your needs. The keyboard is now 8% quieter, and the touchbar is mandatory!"
- stupidcar 8y agoIt's almost as if Apple aren't even basing their hardware strategy on what developers are complaining about on Hacker News.
- bodas 8y agoI'd go further and say that Apple isn't basing their hardware strategy on the needs of any real person. It's a laptop with only USB-C ports (and the 13-inch only has two of them). You can't even plug a USB stick into it. The only people who asked for a laptop like that are working at Apple.
- CharlesW 8y ago> You can't even plug a USB stick into it. You can via an adapter[1] or hub. FWIW, even today this is fairly rare (once so far this year for me) since Dropbox tends to be the new "USB stick". [1] https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=13507 https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=13507
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- lclarkmichalek 8y agoHonestly, I've been working with the USB-C only MBP as my only development machine for a year now, and I haven't once wished it had a classic USB port on it. At my desk it's plugged into monitors which have ports on them. Having a single cable for all my peripherals is quite nice.
- bodas 8y agoIf it's meant to be used at a desk all the time why does it have to be thin and light?
- lclarkmichalek 8y agoBecause I go to meetings and work from home sometimes. Only thing I'd use a standard USB for would be charging, which isn't really something I do in meetings, and I have plenty of chargers at home.
- bodas 8y agoAs someone who occasionally writes apps for iPhone I have to use the USB port all the damn time.
- briandear 8y agoThey make thunderbolt lightning cables.
- indemnity 8y agoHave you tried the WiFi running/debugging? Works pretty well for me.
- jason_slack 8y ago
- Osmium 8y ago> I'd go further and say that Apple isn't basing their hardware strategy on the needs of any real person. Real person here! I love the USB-C only approach. I love being able to charge from either side of my laptop, and I love having single cable to plug in at my desk for RAID/monitor/ethernet/charging/etc. I want my laptop minimal; if I want it to do more, I can add more.
- ambulancechaser 8y agoyou're extolling the benefits of USB-C not the lack of USB-A. The presence of a USB-A would not affect your listed benefits in the least.
- godzillabrennus 8y agoIt would increase the thickness of the laptop. Apple is design driven. I also hate the new keyboard but couldn’t care less about using dongles if I get a thinner laptop.
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y agoI don't understand. At this point, what are the benefits of a thinner laptop? Lighter I can understand, but what does a thinner laptop enable you to do?
- twblalock 8y agoIt takes up less space when folded in a bag, in luggage, etc., so it is less of a burden to bring with you when you go somewhere. How would you feel if your laptop suddenly doubled in thickness but didn’t gain any weight? Most people would be unhappy about that.
- dahauns 8y agoAlways with the hyperbole. How would you feel if your laptop suddenly increased 2mm in thickness but didn't gain any weight? Most people wouldn't even notice the difference if you didn't point it out to them.
- chrisseaton 8y ago> You can't even plug a USB stick into it. I don't think I've used, or seen anyone else use, a USB stick in about a decade. We can't just keep these legacy ports around forever, cluttering up our devices.
- josephg 8y agoI use USB sticks semi regularly and I have a USB-c MacBook Pro. I picked up a few USB sticks with dual A and C plugs on them. They work a treat.
- sumedh 8y ago> I use USB sticks semi regularly What do you use it for, is it something dropbox or others cannot do?
- mirimir 8y agoBandwidth is much greater.
- sumedh 8y agoYes but I am pretty sure there very few people who need so much bandwidth and you can always buy a usb c flash drive.
- mirimir 8y agoTrue, I guess. And I'm one of them. Sometimes I use numerous Linux, Windows or macOS VMs for testing stuff. At 5-10GB per VM, that's way too much for my system array. So I use LUKS-encrypted HDDs and SSDs via USB. With my pitiful uplink, cloud storage for hundreds of GB would be unworkable. And yes, I could use USB-C.
- likeclockwork 8y agoWhen did the sneakernet become a foreign concept to hackers?
- Stratoscope 8y agoLately I've been working at a company that uses YubiKeys for 2FA. You can use a traditional YubiKey, but the YubiKey Nano is especially popular because you can put it in your laptop and leave it there. It barely sticks out at all, just enough that you can touch it and activate the touch sensor. [1] I started noticing people in meetings with their new MacBook Pros and six inch cords sticking out the side, and on closer inspection, there was a YubiKey Nano plugged in at the end of the cord. Meanwhile, the folks with ThinkPads or older MacBooks just had a Nano tucked into one of their USB-A ports like it was no big deal. I know which I would pick. [1] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B018Y1XXT6/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B018Y1XXT6/
- megablast 8y agoYes, I too base my decisions of which laptop to buy based on how a YubiKey looks.
- Stratoscope 8y agoIt's not just a cosmetic issue. The people with the six inch cords are leaving them plugged into the laptop all the time as they walk around the building, just like the people with the USB-A ports are leaving their YubiKeys plugged in all the time. The difference is that if they bump into somebody or something, that dongle is likely to get broken, and it could even damage the USB-C port in the MacBook. That's not going to happen with a Nano plugged directly into a USB-A port.
- glhaynes 8y agoRight, it’s important that the whole world stand still for a decade because of some fucking “YubiKey dongle”.
- llampx 8y agoCalm down. It's not just YubiKey. The world isn't moving to USB-C everything for a while yet.
- pdpi 8y ago
- ubernostrum 8y agoA while back someone posted an article comparing Nikon and Canon in the professional photography market starting in around the 1970s. Tellingly, Nikon did what HN seems to want: they had a very conservative approach to "pro" model cameras, emphasizing backwards compatibility and respecting what their "pro" users asked for. Canon, on the other hand, experimented a lot and, despite not actually inventing many of the new ideas, was willing to try them out on "pro" cameras. This difference of approach cost Nikon its leading market share among "pro" users. There may be a lesson there.
- birken 8y agoThe 13-inch Macbook Pro has 4 USB-C ports
- danieldk 8y agoOnly the TouchBar version. The MacBook Pro Escape has 2 USB-C ports. https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/specs/ https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/specs/
- akhilcacharya 8y agoYup. If it had an equivalent number of IO+Power I wouldn’t mind as much. Right now I have power, 1 USB, and 2 monitors (1 HDMI, 1 TB2) on my 2015. I can’t do that at all without an extra dock on a non-touchbar.
- derefr 8y ago> You can't even plug a USB stick into it. You mean a USB-A stick. There are USB-C sticks!
- MarkusAllen 8y agoWe can get a 256 GB USB-C stick for about $70 here: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XC1WGQR/ref=twister_B01IKC9ZW8?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XC1WGQR/ref=twister_B01IKC9ZW8?... That is a heck of a lot less than purchasing for storage space when buying this laptop.
- chrismorgan 8y agoI recall a review in APC magazine in mid-2003 of Lindows, a live CD Linux distribution, mentioning that you could pair it with a “cheap-as-chips 128MB USB drive for $70” for persistent storage. The phrase stuck with me due to its absurdity—you can get a lot of chips for $70! Now, fifteen years later, you can almost get 2000× the storage for the same price. (I say “almost” as APC spoke of 70 AUD which is somewhat less than 70 USD.)
- rayiner 8y agoI recently used a USB stick for something other than reinstalling the OS for the first time in probably a decade.
- bigiain 8y ago"If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses." -- Henry Ford Nobody asked for USB ports when they had serial/parallel ports, or for the floppy drive to disappear, or to lose the VGA connector. I don't know if Apple have made the right calls here (on either the USB-C ports or the keyboard), but they do have some history in making eventually-winning calls on at least some of these things. (That _also_ built the Newton, so I'm not gonna claim they _always_ get it right.) It'll be interesting to see how these design decisions fare over then next 3-5 years...
- slavik81 8y ago> Nobody asked for USB ports when they had serial/parallel ports, or for the floppy drive to disappear, or to lose the VGA connector. I don't recall being annoyed by those changes. In particular, the VGA->DVI transition was handled really well. Just about everything was DVI-I and would accept a VGA signal over a DVI cable, so you just bought a VGA->DVI cable and continued using VGA.
- briandear 8y agoSo basically a “dongle?”
- slavik81 8y agoNo dongle at all. Just a different cable. The adapter cables are fine. It's the devices that aren't attached via cables that are awkward.
- bigiain 8y agoMacs with USB but no SCSI connector were a big cause of complaints where I was back then (I worked around lots of designers with SCSI Syquest and Zip drives, and all their client archives of high-res photoshop and page layout work on them), and _everybody_ in my circles thought Apple were insane for leaving floppy drives off... (These were a long time back though...)
- 8y ago
- bogomipz 8y agoIndeed and perhaps the height of absurdity - if you were to go buy a brand new iPhone 8 today, the cable that comes with the phone has a USB 3.0 connector not an USB-C connector at the far end. So you can't even plug a brand new iPhone 8 directly into a brand new Macbook Pro without buying a cable as a separate purchase.
- briandear 8y agoExcept you don’t need to, generally. Setting up a phone doesn’t require a computer connection and, since USB-A phone chargers are ubiquitous, it doesn’t make much sense to go Thunderbolt 3 on iPhone’s default cable yet because the days of the iTunes setup process are long gone. The primary use of that cable that comes with iPhone is for charging — and it does include a charger. Unless you are the .025% of iPhone owners that do development, your complaint really doesn’t matter. With AirDrop, AirPrint and iCloud, there really isn’t much point to connecting to a computer for the vast majority of users.
- Fomite 8y agoI can't remember the last time I plugged my iPhone or iPad into my computer. And I can remember the last time I borrowed someone's USB-2/3 charger. It was like, two days ago. I'm with Apple on this having been the right choice.
- bogomipz 8y ago>"Except you don’t need to, generally." Generally except if you commute/travel via long distance by train or bus and there is only one power outlet per passenger, and you need your phone as a modem for your laptop. Or at an airport with limited outlet availability. Or at a coffee shop with limited outlet availability. Or if you prefer to back up to your laptop locally via iTunes. >"Unless you are the .025% of iPhone owners that do development, your complaint really doesn’t matter." Telling people their view doesn't really matter on account of a statistic you completely made up? Dismissing others people's views because their use case differs from your own? Brilliant.
- llampx 8y ago
- TheAceOfHearts 8y agoTo add another point: I've had a 2017 MBP for over a year now and I don't mind that it only has USB-C plugs. I have an adapter for the rare cases when I want to plug in some older USB device. I actually really like their push towards USB-C everywhere. The only major device I own that doesn't use USB-C is actually my old iPad. If they killed their proprietary adapter in favor of USB-C I'd be very happy.
- randyrand 8y agodevelopers are not the only ones that use the keyboards on their computers.
- keyle 8y agoI haven't met anyone saying nice things about the missing ESC key... And the touchbar is too fiddly and situational to be useful, even to power users.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- systoll 8y agoApple's removal of the Escape key is courageously guiding its users into the superior Caps-lock-as-escape configuration.
- FPGAhacker 8y agoI prefer caps lock as control. Although for a while I ran in a hybrid mode where if I hit caps lock and released quickly it was escape. If I held it down and tapped another key it was control.
- innocentoldguy 8y agoI’ve always set up my Caps Lock to be both an Esc and Ctrl key, so the touchbar change didn’t cause me any issues. Karabiner Elements is worth looking into if the virtual Esc key bothers you.
- jiveturkey 8y ago
- drewg123 8y agoOr even a lot of other people, like professors. My wife, the professor, is finally going to replace her 2011 Macbook Air. She was excited to check out the new 13" MBP. Then she saw the touch bar (without a real escape), hated the keyboard after typing on it in the Apple Store, and realized she'd have to replace the dongles she uses to present to her classes (VGA and HDMI). What really killed it was when she realized she'd have to have yet another dongle to plug in her mouse. She already has a Linux desktop both at home and at work, and asked me if I'd help her put Linux on a laptop for her. We're looking at the latest X1 Carbon..
- sleet 8y agoI've had the 5th Gen X1 Carbon for a while now, its served me well I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it.
- chx 8y agoX1C6 is a wonderful machine, go for it.
- sundvor 8y agoAye. My X1C1 is still going strong; buying highest spec has always worked well for me. When it says bye, it'll be another one (top model/current gen).
- donio 8y agoI am using the 5th gen and it's just about the perfect Linux laptop but a while ago I read that the 6th gen needs some tweaks under Linux, https://delta-xi.net/#056 https://delta-xi.net/#056 or https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Lenovo_ThinkPad_X1_Carbon_(Gen_6) https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Lenovo_ThinkPad_X1_Carb... for example. This may have changed since but the 5th gen is probably a safer choice for the less adventurous
- twblalock 8y ago> It's almost as if Apple aren't even basing their hardware strategy on what developers are complaining about on Hacker News. I’m imagining someone who went into a fallout shelter about 10 years ago, somehow only had HN as a source of news, and suddenly re-entered the world. What would such a person be suprised to learn? I suspect Apple still being a successful company would come as a huge shock to such a person. So would the success of SystemD and Docker and Kubernetes and Dropbox and microservices, the complete takeover of widescreens in the display market, and the continued survival of Tesla. I bet a stock picking strategy that invests in companies and ideas that HN users hate, and shorts the ones that HN users love, would be right far more often than it is wrong and would make tons of money.
- sophistication 8y agoWho doubted Apple would be successful in ~2008? The iPhone and the MacBook Air were phenomenal products.
- lowtolerance 8y agoNeither were guaranteed hits when they were introduced. Apple’s biggest claim to fame at that point was the iPod. Even after the iPhone was released, it was years before critics looked at it as a product that could withstand the test of time.
- kofejnik 8y agoin 2007, it was a widespread analyst consensus that iPhone will fail, since competing phones have obv. better specs
- batiudrami 8y agoIn 2008 the iPhone was a $500 subsidised device (at a time when other phones were "free" or up to $200) which really didn't do anything. It didn't do MMS, third party apps didn't exist, google maps didn't have turn-by-turn. I'm sure the user experience of a reasonable sized capacitive touch screen was great compared to the alternatives - but I never even saw one in real life and on paper it was very expensive and didn't have anything to sell me on it. Once the iPhone 3G came it out was clear the device was a phenomenon and not a rich people toy, but initially the market was pretty confused, from what I remember.
- LarryDarrell 8y agoPretty sure they are targeting their best buyers. Lifestyle bloggers and vain people with more disposable than sense. Developers bitch too much and feel like their needs are more important than a Mormon Mommy Pinterest Aficionado. The developer can easily dump Apple without any peer push back. The Lifestyle blogger can't, because it's a status thing.
- doctorwho 8y agoApple has never cared what their users wanted and they've never listened to them. Design, like shit, flows downhill. The difference between then and now that is Steve Jobs isn't around to tell them that the shit landing on their heads is really gold. As a result, they're not afraid to offend Steve and they're starting to develop opinions of their own.
- danShumway 8y agoI don't understand this. They're very, very clearly marketing the Macbook Pro to developers. Read their press release, they have a section devoted to Unity performance for goodness sake. Look at the older 2012-2015 models - arguably the entry point for many modern developers, the devices that were so good and so reliable it cemented their love for the brand. There's a difference between pivoting your target demographic, and just making a bad device and hoping professionals won't notice.
- pasta 8y agoApple knows it will sell on looks alone. So the hardware looks very good (maybe the best looking laptops in the world?). The screen looks very good (high res + great color). The keyboard looks great and some may even say that a hockey puck as mouse looks great. This is what sells. I also think that Apple never intended to serve the pro market. They tried some times but brands like Microsoft, HP, Dell and Siemens are still too strong.
- alwillis 8y agoIt's almost as if Apple aren't even basing their hardware strategy on what developers are complaining about on Hacker News. Apple's market cap is over $900 billion on it's way to $1 trillion; so apparently the strategy of not reacting to every complaint on the internet about their products, including Hacker News, seems to be working for them. If Hacker News had a built-in prediction market (a la https://www.predictit.org https://www.predictit.org), I would have made a fortune betting against what developers are complaining about on Hacker News.
- mancerayder 8y agoUnfortunately for us, Apple bases its decisions on expected sales numbers more than our feelings. That said, does anyone know if the sales numbers are stronger after these mean keyboard and touchbar (and dongly) redesigns?
- TillE 8y agoIt would be completely silly to look at sales numbers like that. There are far too many factors. Now, if they sold two high-end MBP models, one with and one without the touchbar, then that would be a valid comparison. But they don't do that.
- Someone1234 8y agoSales numbers lag behind consumer satisfaction. Meaning people may still buy this MBP but decide that their next computer won't be a Mac, this means the "lost sale" could be four or five years into the future. Plus there's the magnifying effect of "influences." Are technical people still going to recommend to their less technical family members a Mac? My point isn't "Apple is doomed!" rather, any company, has to look beyond yesterday's sales numbers to broadcast tomorrow's sales. Hopefully Apple has the data to know if these changes do more good than harm.
- etatoby 8y ago> Are technical people still going to recommend to their less technical family members a Mac? I've done that for decades. Not anymore. More or less after 10.6.8 the software started getting more and more fiddly, slower, and less intuitive, and the hardware has been getting more fragile and less versatile. I just recommend Lenovo with Windows 10 and/or Ubuntu, depending on the person. Xubuntu for me.
- eddieroger 8y agoReturns don't lag like that. If people were that unhappy with the keyboard, they'd take the Mac back. Apple can read HN or the like all day, but if laptops are leaving the door, then they have no reason to change anything.
- 8y ago
- Osmium 8y agoI love the keyboard, and I code all day. It's actually my favorite keyboard of any I've used with the exception of the current-gen external Apple keyboards. I enjoy the light-touch and low key travel required to type. I find the typing more pleasant and kinder on my hands.
- godzillabrennus 8y agoI bought a 2017 model in February. It’s already had one keyboard replacement. The . Key stopped working. Can’t wait to have this thing replaced because the keyboard breaks regularly enough before the three years of AppleCare runs out.
- Osmium 8y agoThat sounds pretty awful. Luckily I haven’t personally had any keyboard troubles (I’ve had it since release and travel with it frequently), but if I had I’d probably be a lot less positive about it (:
- designcode 8y agoGetting the keyboard fixed isn't dependant on Apple Care. They have a 4 year program to fix any issues, outside of warranty.
- copperx 8y agoI wonder what happens if you have a keyboard issue AND your logic board dies at the same time after the first year? Will they replace the logic board for free, given that the keyboard was malfunctioning?
- vbezhenar 8y agoMay be satisfied people are not very vocal on forums. It's hard to judge without significant statistics.
- rayiner 8y agoThe noise may well have been the bigger complaint among buyers than the key travel.
- pippy 8y agoWhen I first started using, I hated it. Now after using the old one, I wouldn't want to go back. It just takes a little while to get used to it.
- stanislavb 8y agoIt's more like parody. The moment I read their PR, I though - REALLY!? Am I stupid or Apple's PR team is full of hypocrites?
- Aeolun 8y agoNow Mac will be even more exclusive!
- imron 8y agoI can mostly live with the keyboard, and grudgingly cope with the touchbar (too many accidental presses doing unwanted things) but please, please, please give me the old arrow keys back. I'd also be willing to trade some thinness for more battery life.
- jdblair 8y agoI think the keyboard hate is severely exaggerated. I actually like the new MacBook keyboard, except for the noise. I type, umm, vigorously, and sometimes I'm actually asked to be quieter when taking notes in meetings. So, 8% quieter is great. Regarding the crumb problem: compressed air fixes this for me. I always have had to blow out my keyboards when the keys get shit in them. It's true the new one needs the air treatment more often. I'm ok with that. The touchbar I could do without, but I have trained myself to use the virtual escape key. I think Apple should get rid of it, but I expect inertia means the touchbar is here to stay. If I were a vi user maybe this would be a deal breaker. The biggest issue with the 13" MacBook has been the anemic CPU and I'm looking forward to trying out one of the new models with a quad core i7. Edit: here come the downvotes!
- razodactyl 8y agoFrom my experience, I didn't realise I tapped a 'fake' esc key when using vi, it's in the same position so you naturally tap it easily. I think the only downside is you realise a moment later that what you pressed wasn't exactly right.
- nkkollaw 8y agoApple doesn't target artists and developers anymore. Photographers cannot easily transfer pictures, devs cannot type, etc. etc. The sooner one understands that, the better.
- bichiliad 8y agoI think you can infer that they're trying to address some of the issues with the keyboard, specifically the dust-breaks-everything bit. There was an ifixit article[0] posted a day or two ago touching on some of those points. The tl;dr there is that the quiet aspect is a result of what looks like a fix for the high failure rate of the keys. They can't admit that it's an issue, likely for legal reasons. [0]: https://ifixit.org/blog/10279/apple-macbook-keyboard-cover-up/ https://ifixit.org/blog/10279/apple-macbook-keyboard-cover-u...