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Is timeless UI design a thing?
- johnchristopher 8y agoJust a rambling note: that kind of light switch used in the article header is the kind of timeless design I dislike. When the light bulb needs to be replaced I can't tell anymore which position is on or off and if I am getting a burn when screwing the replacement in. It's even worse when there are multiple switches for the same light bulb :D. Funny thing is that the same experience is conveyed through skeuomorphic interfaces more often than not. /rambling_off
- the_mitsuhiko 8y agoI consider that a feature in a way. For a very long time I had the opinion because the German plugs are reversible they are inferior in design however what I learned is that it encouraged safer device design because it both line and neutral are not exposed on devices as a result. Similar rules apply to bulbs: since you generally cannot tell safely if a a switch is on or off it encouraged the installation of RCDs and mandatory wiring plans that let you switch off parts of the installation.
- lb1lf 8y agoOh, in Norway at least, I believe the norm is to wire the light switches so that when it tilts inwards (top part closest to the wall), the light is on. I haven’t looked up the electric code to see whether it is a requirement, but it definitely is considered best practice. I’d suspect other countries, too, to have some sort of preference, whether codified or not.
- jamescostian 8y agoIn America we tend to do the same. Problems arise when you have multiple switches toggling a single light though. If one switch is ON and the other is OFF and the light is ON, then when you flip the OFF switch to ON the light will turn OFF. And when they are both ON, to actually turn the light ON, you need to flip one of the switches to be OFF
- huhtenberg 8y agoNot just Norway, it is exceedingly common everywhere in the world. Down is off, up is on. Alternatively - press on the down part to switch off, press at the top part to switch on.
- JensRex 8y agoIt's the opposide in Denmark. Top pressed in, the switch is off. https://i.imgur.com/TWH1YjY.jpg https://i.imgur.com/TWH1YjY.jpg
- maaaats 8y agoOff-topic, but I find the sockets and switches in Denmark to be weird. They are so different from the ones in Norway and Sweden. Maybe newer houses are more similar to here, but I've mostly seen those you posted in Denmark. The socket is basically just two holes.
- JensRex 8y agoThis system of sockets is unique to Denmark, and it is still used. However, the Schuko system was allowed to be installed, a few years back. Source: Me, danish electrician.
- daurnimator 8y agoIt's the opposite in Australia: "down" is on; "up" is off. This is nominally off: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_switch#/media/File:Australian_Architrave_2_Gang_Switch_Plate.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_switch#/media/File:Austr...
- ronilan 8y agoIt is very common to have multiple switches controlling the same light (example: two switchs on both side of the bed controlling a single ceiling light). The position of an electrical switch is not designed to signal the status of what it controls. Source: I was an electrician apprentice in my teens. Edit: wiki (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiway_switching https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiway_switching)
- 13of40 8y agoIf my electrician installed half of the single switch circuits with the switch upside down I wouldn't ask him to come back for the next job.
- akvadrako 8y agoWithin a house they should be consistent. But I have some American friends in Europe with their switches wired the US way.
- ronilan 8y agoYou are missing the point, it’s a feature not a bug. Single-switch is commonly installed with the top-pressed-in meaning “on”. For multiway-switch the position is not a status indicator. Both types of switches can be present in multiple places around the house. Thus, position of “a switch” is not an indicator. Example: my living room light panel (Vancouver, build circa. 2005). All lights are on in both pictures: http://imgur.com/8CTZOHZ http://imgur.com/8CTZOHZ
- arbie 8y agoIn some hotels of the world, light switches always go back to their default position upon toggle. It is counterintuitive that there's one and only one affordance to turn off a light and to turn it on.
- mirimir 8y agoUsing lighted switches, I'm pretty sure that one could have both switches lit when the light was off, and both switches dark when the light was on.
- coldseattle 8y agoLight switches should disappear. Lights should turn themselves on as needed or when asked to.
- marcosdumay 8y ago"Computer, turn the lights on" Star Trek is not anymore what it used to be.
- TeMPOraL 8y agoIt's "Computer, lights!" and we're still not close to Star Trek, because our computing is ridiculously fragmented. Instead of a unified, configurable system doing our bidding, we have a whole ecosystem of apps that try to be everything but helpful. Can you imagine captain Picard saying, "computer, tell Hue to turn on the lights", or "computer, tell Northrop Grumman® Unified Weapons Platform™ to charge Phasers™"?
- izacus 8y ago"Hey Google, turn on the lights!" works just fine.
- oliv__ 8y agoIs hipster UI design a thing?
- tfranco 8y agoIs it?
- beamatronic 8y agoEver used Snapchat?
- tfranco 8y agoGood point.
- bloopernova 8y agoIt's probably been discussed to death, and I apologize if you are rolling your eyes at its mere mention: I really, really like the Solarized colour scheme. It's now deeply ingrained into my "visual muscle memory" that a terminal without Solarized just looks wrong to me. Even text editors look strange and jarring without those familiar and soothing colours. It's interesting that the colours in that Swiss Style Color Picker (linked from the article) seem to be taken from a similar visual family of colours (shades? hues? I am not literate in colour's language).
- matte_black 8y agoI’ve seen a recent trend of terminals with red backgrounds that I’m starting to like more than Solarized. It’s not quite as soothing, but easier to focus.
- bloopernova 8y agoThat sounds interesting, and somewhat counter-intuitive, I'd definitely like to see an example you've encountered. :) (Rather than just Googling some random example)
- lorenzfx 8y agoI used solarized exclusively for several years in text editors and the terminal. But after some years I couldn't stand looking at those blue-ish hues all day. Nowadays I use gruvbox [1] the text editor (but still stick to solarized in the terminal). Gruvbox really is a nice change with it's orange and brown, warm colors, I cannot recommend it enough. [1] https://github.com/morhetz/gruvbox https://github.com/morhetz/gruvbox
- bloopernova 8y agoHey that is really good. I am going to give that a try in Atom and VSCode. Thank you! May your code be forever clean, and your backups forever valid :)
- 8y ago
- dwaltrip 8y agoThe answer given by the article: > There's no such thing as timeless design, because it's too dependent on its context, but one can shoot for longevity. E.g. Obviously, there is no such thing perfectly timeless, as the only universal constant is that things change over time. But one can minimize dependence on current context, and attempt to tap into the slower changing, more fundamental aspects of today's world. In this respect, the artist shares some similarity with the scientist.
- iambateman 8y agoThere is most certainly timeless user-interface design. Look at a book from 500 years ago compared to a book today. While the underlying tech is completely changed, the fundamental principles of book-user interaction remain the same. A lamp in the 1920’s had a screw bulb and a switch. The piano has kept 88 keys and 3 pedals for centuries. The asdf keyboard layout will never change. When it comes to website design, we see some standardization happening across the industry for what a website ought to be. I expect the homogenization will continue as websites get measured for business results and find local optima for solving the various problems.
- dwaltrip 8y ago> The asdf keyboard layout will never change. I'd take this bet in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, we might be dead before I prove you wrong, so I wouldn't get to collect my winnings.
- yjftsjthsd-h 8y agoI am inclined to think that it will last at least as long as the current family of languages. Of course, I also consider this to be a tragedy since it's not a particularly good layout.
- iambateman 8y agoTragic relative to what could have been, amazing relative to what used to be...I mean hey, it could be a pen and paper. ;)
- jacquesm 8y agoThey layout will persist until the keyboards themselves are gone.
- keehun 8y agoAgreed. Although your post reminded me that I just saw a 97-key Bosendorfer. You could feel and actually count the vibrations of the lowest C key!
- huhtenberg 8y agoRegardless of the TIMELESSNESS of UI design matters having THIRTY percent of TEXT emphasized is REALLY quite annoying.
- tyrust 8y agoAlso, styling your own thoughts as quotes makes them more convincing and tweetable!
- chapium 8y agoAgreed. I found it somewhat hard to read since the change in styling caused a mental pause much like a comma would. This made the text stop and start in unexpected places.
- keyle 8y agoYeah I wasn't sure if I was meant to even read the regular text... And if I was missing things by skipping it.
- devxpy 8y agoThis really needs to be a thing with OS ui. Changing UI in gnome world, and linux world in general is a real problem. Why can't stuff just stay where I rememeber it is! Mac OS does quite well in this area, at least compared to windows and linux. It still maintains familiar menus, while the look and feel still looks modern.
- yjftsjthsd-h 8y agoAlthough applications changing is still a problem, I quite strongly disagree that Linux desktops are always changing. Unlike NT and Darwin, Linux lets you run whatever desktop environment you want, including all the old ones. I have a co-worker who has been using some offshoot of twm (I forget which) for literally decades with almost no changes.
- devxpy 8y agoI agree, but the old DEs feel old to use, because well, they're old. Mac still feels modern.
- barrystaes 8y ago> It still maintains familiar menus, while the look and feel still looks modern. Modern Windows menu UX is most certainly is not constistent, but Ubuntu linux is. In contrast i do feel MacOS looks very old fashioned for a long time.
- devxpy 8y agoWhich Ubuntu Linux? The gnome one or unity one? I liked untiy too, it was almost perfect. But gnome3 messed it up for everyone. Even though the unity desktop elements remain the same, unity still relies on gnome apps, like nautilus. I don't think I need to state the problems with gnome apps, you can read more about that here: https://medium.com/@probonopd/make-it-simple-linux-desktop-usability-part-1-5fa0fb369b42 https://medium.com/@probonopd/make-it-simple-linux-desktop-u...
- ainar-g 8y agoSome examples of what I consider timeless (and good) UI on the internet: * Hacker News (duh) * c2 wiki * Wikipedia (it changes, but thankfully not radically) I would have added Reddit, but alas. Seeing how they plan to change to that... other thing makes me really sad. Anything else?
- tzahola 8y agoIETF RFCs
- ainar-g 8y agoOh, that's a good one. Also W3C documents.
- DonHopkins 8y agoTPS Reports.
- detaro 8y ago"Timeless" in the sense of "unchanged for a long time", but IMHO not as "unchanged because they are still great". They are optimized for different times, and needlessly bad to consume today.
- bauerd 8y ago* Google search (esp. the non-JS version) * GitHub * ia.net and some of their work * dict.cc
- hawski 8y agoBut haven't c2 wiki changed for a slightly worse? Don't get me wrong - it's still better than most. It's now client side rendered. Also there was a short time after it introduced this change, when it looked far more wonky. It's not a coincidence that all those pages could as good work with minimal CSS. That's why I would like to see a pure HTML cross-platform web browser. With nice proportional fonts and good support for media. It could even try to do some more complex typesetting. So links/lynx and other console browser do not cut it. Dillo AFAIK is no longer developed and it's not available on mobile. Side rant: I hate the recent trend with adding those obnoxious position:fixed or sticky bars at the top. All this fight to reduce browser chrome (from which Chrome takes it's name) has given web-designers more space to waste. It's horrible when one has: a wide-screen monitor, a small monitor, not full-screen window, a smartphone, a smartphone with a virtual keyboard visible. So pretty much always... On this hypothetical HTML-only browser it wouldn't obscure the content. Just as all those newsletter, cookies and GDPR consent overlays.
- sahillavingia 8y ago> The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that it's all learned.
- dsr_ 8y agoThis turns out to be wildly inaccurate: my mother's profession -- lactation consultant -- wouldn't exist if humans had an intuition about this. (80% of her work is in getting positioning right; this is the sort of thing that new mothers used to learn by having lots of public and family examples to follow.)
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- wool_gather 8y agoThat's about the interface not knowing how to, so to speak, "configure itself"˚; it's not about the user -- the baby -- failing to use the interface. ˚With apologies for the literal objectification.
- dragonwriter 8y agoObjectification aside, that seems wrong; while there is obviously instinctive behavior involved (on both sides), both sides also need learned behavior for it to work well; the instinctive component is enough to get to the point where learning has a high enough success rate in the wood that humanity didn't die out from all out idiotic starving to death, but it's not the whole story.
- keyle 8y agoI don't know why you got downvoted, that was one of the best quote I've heard about design... I learnt the gestalt and that's basically the gist of it all.
- quickthrower2 8y agoBreastfeeding is not intuitive for mother or baby.
- stevenwoo 8y agoThis feels like a subset of The Design of Everyday Things with some specific additions for corporate logos, it's unclear to me if the author has read the book or is unfamiliar with it and unintentionally references the first chapter in the conclusion.
- billysielu 8y agoSo apply these designs to the principles from the brutalist post the other day and you have a site that looks good and is easy to use.
- Animats 8y agoWhen the Panama Canal was nearing completion, there was talk of adding decoration, and a group of artists and sculptors was sent to look at the locks. They came back with a report. The entire project had been designed to be purely functional with no attention to decoration. Adding any decoration would be superfluous and would make it look worse. So, no stone lions or fluted columns or brass eagles or obelisks. Just the huge masses of poured concrete and steel, and the whitewashed control buildings with tan tile roofs. They still look good after a century of operation.
- ourmandave 8y agoI would have gone the other direction and tried to hide it like a power substation behind trees or something landscapish. I was going to mention the water pumping station that looks like a house but the canal would need a really big house. https://sploid.gizmodo.com/this-normal-looking-house-is-fake-and-actually-hides-a-1505479080 https://sploid.gizmodo.com/this-normal-looking-house-is-fake...
- fyfy18 8y agoIn Victorian England, utility buildings had rather elaborate designs. Abbey Mills Pumping Station is one of the most elaborate, but a lot of 19th and early 20th century utility buildings have a lot more style than those built today. https://lookup.london/inside-abbey-mills-pumping-station/ https://lookup.london/inside-abbey-mills-pumping-station/
- monort 8y agoPumping station in Buenos Aires is pretty too - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Water_Company_Palace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Water_Company_Palace
- dredmorbius 8y agoConsider as counterpoint Hoover Dam. The art deco sculptures of Oskar J.W. Hansen mark an age, but haven't become dated.
- 8y ago
- deltron3030 8y agoHere's the inspiration for that article: http://www.aisleone.net/ http://www.aisleone.net/ A very good and reknown site about the international style. Apart from the Swiss stuff, or the beginnings at the Bauhaus most people know about, the Ulm school of design is interesting for the holistic approach to design. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulm_School_of_Design https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulm_School_of_Design My personal feeling is that we're already leaving the reincanation of the international style (when it comes to UI), and are moving "back" into Art Nouveau or Jugendstil, digital with a analog touch (this will be huge with AR I think, because it blends both worlds). AR is the medium where skeumorphism will reinvent itself I think, it's natural and at home in that environment.
- Pulcinella 8y agoI think the last high point (in terms of popularity) for the International style was around the redesign for iOS 7. Since then designers have moved away from it. It’s still not a revival of iOS 1-6 style skeumorphism, but there is more emphasis on things like drop shadows. Even Windows 10 seems to have backed away a bit from the Windows 8 style (though the Metro design seems more Scandinavian than International). I think responsive design and the variety of device sizes make Swiss design rather difficult. Swiss design is all about using a well defined grid (see Josef Müller-Brockmann). Responsive design, different device sizes, dynamic text size, accessibility features, etc. make this very difficult to implement. Not to mention limitations in technology and APIs (e.g. the difficulty in grid layouts before flexbox and grid).
- deltron3030 8y ago> Swiss design is all about using a well defined grid (see Josef Müller-Brockmann). I think that Swiss graphic design is more about whitespace, a limited amount of information density, where the grid is just a tool that helps with defining that space.
- taneq 8y ago> AR is the medium where skeumorphism will reinvent itself I think, it's natural and at home in that environment. Sure, but after that it will make way once again for more symbolic interfaces with higher information density and more convenient interaction, just like every other pendulum swing since the invention of the computer mouse. A new, unfamiliar medium needs to borrow from established interfaces until it develops its own conventions, and skeumorphism is probably the easiest approach for this phase.
- krsdcbl 8y agoThe web & almost any gui lacks one important characteristics for timelessness - simply: time. What we consider timeless in other desogn disciplines are patterns that emerged throughout many centuries of cultural transformation. Digital UI is not only much much younger, it also enables sheer endless variation of any functional pattern, arbitrary design. I would argue much of the UX patterns we established so far, be it the button or a slideshow, windows & menus, all these UI conventions are barebone concepts that already are timeless - and when it comes to styling, looks, it's very well possible to design in a way that is already timeless, it's just paint. And some of today's design schools will become timeless in time
- Kagerjay 8y agoI find math-based designs to be really appealing for a timeless logo design A good example of this is twitters design https://designshack.net/articles/graphics/twitters-new-logo-the-geometry-and-evolution-of-our-favorite-bird/ https://designshack.net/articles/graphics/twitters-new-logo-...
- godzillabrennus 8y agoTo me timeless UI was achieved with Mac OS X Tiger (10.4) and has been eroded with time. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/fi/7/75/Mac_OS_X_10.4_Tiger.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/fi/7/75/Mac_OS_X_10.4...
- matchbok 8y agoBrushed metal? No thanks.
- pressurefree 8y agothat show was a slippity flippity flop mos def
- wpdev_63 8y agoNo - every UI becomes stale after years of use. Just ask apple.
- ThomPete 8y agoUI Design can be timeless in the sense that it becomes the adopted standard for specific usage by a given culture and that this culture by default uses the solution so much that everyone knows it's meaning. It's however not because of some objective universal criteria but instead that no other solution has been needed which made it worth changing that standard. Intuition is learned within the confines of the culture that understand the reference. The desktop metaphor isn't timeless it's just one that society has invested enough time that it becomes shared understanding In that sense, it's not different than a language where no specific word or sentence or meaning is objective in itself but rather points to something that "everyone" understands.
- blueboo 8y agoThis gets at the crux of it, if you take "timeless" literally: UI is culture. And what made culture is timeless? The undergraduate discussion group might hit on Shakespeare, the Pyramids, the King James Bible, or Portal II. In the end there's no common ground except that the value of culture itself is context-sensitive. Anyway, it's all a red herring because "timeless" in this article is misused; the author just means "classic"
- ThomPete 8y agoYup agree. Classic is a much better expression as it doesn't falsely imply some sort of objective criteria.
- bloaf 8y agoAn ancient Sumerian ledger: https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1250/0*7LNb7XKpR6vAdsBH.png https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1250/0*7LNb7XKpR6vAdsBH.... A ledger from the 1700s: https://recordoffice.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/d2375m-277-10_0002.jpg https://recordoffice.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/d2375m-277-... I think there are some UIs that almost perfectly fit the function; and they are the candidates for timelessness.
- ThomPete 8y agoThese are extreme exceptions and hardly the point of the article.
- westoncb 8y ago> Remember the round cornered buttons? Yeah, I remember too. The only way it's okay for a designer to use them now is if it's #ironic. So keep it functional, not decorative. The round corners were never suiting any purpose. But you have to choose some shape for them to be; why is square the default/baseline, and round the modification (the one with 'something added')? You could equally well say to, "just use round corners, keep it functional, not decorative—we austere users of the internet don't require any flashy straight-edged ornamentation." I'm sure someone can give me an argument about how the straight edges make it easier for the eyes to associate aligned items or something like that, but if you're just slightly rounding some rectangles, not using ovals or something, the difference will be negligible. The problem isn't introducing aesthetic qualities for their own sake—it's only a problem when you exchange something with a concrete purpose because you give higher value to the purely aesthetic thing. (The quote uses the term 'decorate,' which ordinarily I think is a good choice, since in the case of decorations, you're adding content, which can lead to useless clutter—but! my opening argument here is basically that choosing round over square is not decorative in that sense.) So, I'm left with the feeling that the quote really just comes down to justifying the newer bandwagon.
- TylerE 8y agoBecause squares are much easier to draw than circles.
- westoncb 8y agoI think you're right that that has led to people's thinking of rectangles as 'default' (and because they're more traditional, probably for the same reason)—but it's an irrelevant fact now. However you're drawing button these days, it's generally a choice between drawRect(...) or drawRoundRect(...); or of course in CSS you just add one line to define the border-radius.
- flukus 8y agoThere's the old story about Steve Jobs and Bill Atkinson where jobs points out rounded corners everywhere: http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Round_Rects_Are_Everywhere.txt http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Round_Rects_Are_E... It do wonder how much CPU power, electricity and carbon emissions have gone into rounded corners over the years, only to have square rectangles came back into fashion.
- catchmeifyoucan 8y agoI like rounded corners. Arguably they serve a purpose; easier on the eyes when you have groups of elements.
- alexkavon 8y agoBetteridge says: No! [0] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headli...
- randop 8y agoHave not yet seen a full UI that have not undergone change. But, there are UI elements that have stand the test of time. The best example I can think of is Letters and Numbers. We have been using them for a long time to communicate and interact with each other.
- arikr 8y agoMy contribution: the Lindy effect applies to design. The longer something has been considered good design, the longer it is likely to remain good design. If a design has been good for 100 years, it'll probably be good for another 100 years. If a design has only been good for a year or two, you should expect that it'll have a much shorter lifespan.
- tlrobinson 8y agoOut of curiosity, what are some examples of "100 year" designs? Bicycles come to mind.
- maaaats 8y agoI learned that as The Copernican Principle from Algorithms to Live by. Also based on a power law distribution. As in we are not special. If we know nothing about the lifetime of an object, we on average can expect to show up precisely halfway into the thing.
- 6ue7nNMEEbHcM 8y agoPlease if you ever succeed in any timeless design, please don't make it like the linked article. It's horrible, it takes like 1/4th of the screen horizontally, with majority of the space taken by the blank spots. I don't know why people nowadays make everything look awful so it looks "the same" on all devices. Please don't do that. It makes it more difficult to estimate the length of the text, it's irritating since you need to scroll constantly and it looks bad.
- culot 8y agoThe link posted above is an AMP link. Maybe try removing the AMP? It looks like it uses about 2/3 of the browser width that way, much better. Also, about blank spots: do you mean in between the sections of text? Maybe is an issue with the [goddamn] lazy-load graphics?
- 6ue7nNMEEbHcM 8y agoI mean the page layout. A single very narrow column and a lots of unused space all around it. I have full sized screen, I shouldn't be constrained as if I was on mobile. EDIT: you are right, it's the AMP version which makes it like that, without /amp it looks like normal web page.
- moretai 8y agoI am a programmer, and I think I'd like to pivot into design/graphic design/ux/etc. I just want to make pretty stuff. I want to make cool looking stuff. Is there any advice some of you can impart?
- Izkata 8y agoDon't forget colorblindness. That's an easy one to accidentally end up where they can't distinguish parts of the page from each other. One of the other devs at work has regularly pointed out issues with our prior designers' work, when he couldn't tell what was what.
- kgin 8y ago> Remember the round cornered buttons? Yeah, I remember too. The only way it's okay for a designer to use them now is if it's #ironic. What am I missing here? The latest guidelines for Material Design and iOS have round corner buttons.
- gdubs 8y agoIt comes down to designing according to a set of principles, rather than fads. Then, you use the best available tools to align as tightly to those principles as possible. It doesn't have to be boring either. A principle of Wired in the early 90s was to be outrageous and loud. Clashing colors and unreadable type completely aligned with their principles - and it was great. When new technology comes around, you evolve if it allows you to get closer to your principles. Look at fashion – as full of fads as anything. Yet there are timeless items: well constructed denim; simple and unadorned. A basic, nicely cut tee-shirt. A simple black dress. Oxfords, Vans. Why are they timeless? Because they align with principles that are unchanging: Simple, honest, functional, versatile, easy to maintain. And if your fashion principle is to stand out, then yea, each individual item of clothing will not be timeless. But the principle will be. Same applies to design in any medium.
- parallel_item 8y agoA clock face is a timeless UI