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Booze, Sex, and the Dark Art of Dealmaking in China (2015)
- crypt1d 8y agois it just me or the amount of bigotry in the comments here is ridiculous? some people do business differently, get over it. Not everyone agrees with the western "politically correct" approach to life, and that's ok.
- donquichotte 8y agoMaybe it is you. From TFA: "“The more guys, the less safe the girl is. When there are other men in the room [for sex], it’s like the men are competing with each other, and they get rougher, so the girls can get really hurt.“" Not much need for bigotry to see that if people get "really hurt" in an inter-company bonding event, something must be wrong.
- tomp 8y agoI'm sure the prostitutes knew what they were signing up for.
- SolarNet 8y agoLike they have a choice? Did you see the part where it's basically impossible for women to succeed in business as any average man would because of this system?
- tomp 8y agowhat does that have to do with prostitutes having rough sex?
- Broken_Hippo 8y agoIf you don't have a choice to be a prostitute, it has everything to do with it. Forced prostitution is bad enough, but being mishandled to the point of being hurt is worse.
- tomp 8y agoSo, you're saying, it morally OK to have sex with someone who's forced to be a prostitute, as long as you're not hurting them?! I disagree. IMO consensual sex is fine (however BDSM it is), non-consensual sex is bad. Arguing the degree of badness, while sometimes useful, is (1) not relevant to the above discussion, and (2) a second-order effect, so vastly less important anyways.
- Broken_Hippo 8y agoNo. what I'm sayin is that if it is consensual, whatever folks agree to is fine. It doesn't matter to me if someone wants to go through this stuff or agrees to it. There has to be choice. This includes a legal prostitute: The prostitute should have every right to refuse a sex act, whatever it may be. But when it isn't consensual, the harm done makes the situation that much worse.
- matz1 8y agoWoman can use their sexuality to succeed.
- Broken_Hippo 8y agoSure, but so can men. People don't assume men do, though - but the'll assume a woman that does well has put in time on her back.
- gbersac 8y agoReally ? Never heard about it.
- Broken_Hippo 8y agoI'm pretty sure I've seen it in movie or tv shows a few times. I've personally seen a man use his looks to get ahead - this was in a company that had many more women than men. And I'm going to guess that it happens with gay men as well.
- watwut 8y agoThey signed up for sex for money, not to get hurt. Workplace safety and all that.
- sumedh 8y ago> I'm sure the prostitutes knew what they were signing up for. What about the ones who were forced into it?
- tomp 8y agoThose would suffer even if they were forced to have "normal" (i.e. non-rough) sex. (IMO legalisation is the best solution for that, but it's an orthogonal issue to the one parent was pointing out.)
- sabertoothed 8y agoIt excludes / make it awkward for professional women or even gay professionals.
- akudha 8y agoPersonally I don't care what others do. I care if I am put in a position that I have to engage in these activities, just to win a contract, get paid or whatever else. Especially if I wasn't warned in advance. I guess it would be better for everyone if the interviewee is asked "You might have to participate in, err, hard parties. Would you be okay with it?" The other thing you have to consider is these can be much worse for women and minorities than straight men.
- icelancer 8y ago>> I guess it would be better for everyone if the interviewee is asked "You might have to participate in, err, hard parties. Would you be okay with it?" If you did business in Asia, you would quickly realize this attitude is ridiculous for any number of reasons, not the least being strip club visits. Asian business is all about maintaining and saving face. When in China once, our factory rep offered to us let pick where to go get food. We chose four places and got "hmm, no, don't think that would work well for you" until we chose a place and they agreed. When we got there, our names were placed and the restaurant was clearly waiting for our group. The entire thing was a sham and set up from the beginning to force us into a choice. But they wanted us to have the feeling of control, even if we immediately knew it was bullshit. They're not stupid. Directness like you talk about is simply not acceptable when it comes to any number of negotiating tactics. This is something you learn very quickly if you do logistics or sales in China, or you simply just don't get any work. >> The other thing you have to consider is these can be much worse for women and minorities than straight men. Chinese businessmen don't care about this. Just because Americans do, or it's the right thing to do, doesn't make it something that's going to happen.
- watwut 8y agoFor me it personally, stories like this make it impossible to buy the theory that the world or work are meritocracy or fair. It is not so much that it is politically incorrect, it is more that you can't simultaneously claim that this is how it is and is ok while also claim that everything is totally fair and demographic composition is not influenced by any of this. Not just gender, also religious as it selects people with certain values - good traditional Christian boy saving himself for marriage is f-cked too.
- crypt1d 8y agoAnyone claiming we live in a fair and just society is either asleep and in a fairy tale land, or is pushing an agenda. World is a dangerous place, full of things you may not like, not approve or are simply disgusting. We should certainly work towards improving ourselves but I dont think we can grow unless we learn to respect each other's differences, even when we dont like them. Certainly nobody is coercing anyone into going to strip clubs to close business deals and you can always walk away. Of course you will be walking away from a business opportunity but life is full of hard choices. We don't get to change the rules of the game just because we don't like the outcome.
- watwut 8y agoNobody is coercing you to go, but people will gladly claim that if you are poorer as a result then it is surely because you was lazy or less talented then those who went. And they will celebrate those who went and virtuous and if you dare to point out dark side, you are lazy and jealous. I used to believe that people dont have right to try to change rules of the game, but not anymore. Rules are tilted towards those who are willing to change them and this ideology equals ideology of passivity and submission. Certainly, people are entitled to try to change rules, because current rules are result of human activity - someone else setting rules in his favor in the past.
- crypt1d 8y ago> Nobody is coercing you to go, but people will gladly claim that if you are poorer as a result then it is surely because you was lazy or less talented then those who went. And they will celebrate those who went and virtuous and if you dare to point out dark side, you are lazy and jealous. Again, you make your own choices. If it is more important what people 'claim' about you, instead of how you feel about urself then it seems to me like somebody needs to readjust his moral compass and drop the 'what they are doing is not fair and just'. The hard truth is that people are not really complaining about the morality of the game, but about the fact that they don't get to play it because they have to keep their politically correct appearances. > I used to believe that people dont have right to try to change rules of the game, but not anymore. Rules are tilted towards those who are willing to change them and this ideology equals ideology of passivity and submission. You are absolutely right, I expressed myself poorly. What I meant is that that's the game they are playing. You are welcome to try and change it, but don't go crying (and claiming the moral high ground) when you are kicked out and defeated anyway.
- erikb 8y agoActually a lot of the comments confirm that in the west it's teh same. It's just happening behind closed doors and there are really people (e.g. engineers) who don't know about this at all.
- kelukelugames 8y agolol, the Republicans coined that term. Pretty sure they wouldn't describe visiting prostitutes with your customers as not "politically correct."
- forkLding 8y agoI see this as an East Asian phenomenon, I believe Koreans and Japanese do this to a certain degree as well as certain other East Asian groups. I've heard Russians do bathhouse deals as well although I could be wrong and there is also the finance sector's strip club visits with their clientele that I've heard of (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-12/it-s-closing-time-for-toronto-s-strip-clubs https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-12/it-s-clos...). It seems so weird to see people have to do things just to do business deals/sales all over and I'm curious as to even why. What advantage does it hold over normal sales?
- woolvalley 8y agoSocial bonding gone inappropriate. You like to buy from a (pseudo)friend more than a stranger. You've heard about the entire 'wining and dining' part of sales correct?
- dm3730 8y ago> I see this as an East Asian phenomenon, I see this as one of the effects of European colonialists on East Asia and South East Asian colonies. The practice of colonialist generals/warlords, typically of a naval background of using brothels as a place/culture to bond with other warlords/generals and their local puppets is the predecessor of the current "elite level" business culture observed in these former colonies. For a more contemporary example, Thailand did not have this sexpot/sex tourist city reputation until after the Vietnam War. It was the exploitation of Thai beach resorts and cities as RnR locations for US soldiers that created the current conditions.
- 55555 8y agoI'm pretty sure it's always been very normal in Thai society. The sex tourism, at least for westerners, started with the RnR stuff, as the story goes, but Huai Kwang is 98% Thai clients and probably 30X+ the size of any of the more visible Bangkok "sex tourism spots" (patpong, nana, cowboy). 97%+ of the sex being paid for in Thailand is being paid for by Thai people. The main thing that changed due to foreign influence was Thai people letting the sex workers spill into the streets instead of working more discretely.
- oceanman888 8y agoCan we add (NSFW) for this? I know it is obvious but still.
- pnw_hazor 8y agoSounds like it is SFW at a lot a places in China and SEA.
- chairmanwow 8y agoThey are talking about the article itself. You wouldn’t want to click on this at work because of the picture of the naked erotic dancer featured.
- kwhitefoot 8y agoPerhaps it should be marked: (NSFW US) Nothing there that would have bothered anyone where I work (Norway).
- dogruck 8y agoAmericans don’t like to acknowledge that other cultures have different aaproaches to business. Why is the implication is that these practices are wrong?
- cm2012 8y agoMany men are married and this stuff is frowned on for married men everywhere, including east asia. Also, it makes things incredibly awkward (to say the least) for professional women.
- oceanman888 8y agoCan confirm this, some people just chose to play mobile legend(a very popular mobile game in china) with the girls to escape the awkwardness.
- dogruck 8y agoThis fact is mentioned in the article.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- hungerstrike 8y agoSo then they don't have to take part in it. Take your business somewhere else. I can't believe you're all going to sit here and complain about fucking booze and sex while at the same time, by doing business there at all, you're supporting a tyrannical fucking monster of a government!
- sn41 8y agoDouble standards like these are present in America as well. A friend complained to that a financial firm based in Georgia went through this entire rigmarole of checking his Facebook profile as a prospective employee, only to have the first group meeting in a strip club. He asked me, do they assume that they are never going to hire female employees?
- underlines 8y agoI'm a foreign CTO working in Bangkok and being fully fluent in Thai showed me that it's exactly the same practice in SEA regions: Got to close a deal with a government official? They'll head to the "bathtub massage" area Huai Kwang. Need to bond with a local Business man? Deal closes there as well. Bond with male work mates? On to the bathtub place! Everyone knows it, there's jokes about it and this particular business has licences to run legally, even though prostitution is normally illegal in Thailand. I turned down several invites to such activities and got the usual gay jokes behind my back.
- taneq 8y ago> I turned down several invites to such activities and got the usual gay jokes behind my back. I'm surprised they didn't just invite you to a place that caters for both.
- sanderjd 8y agoI think you missed the point; he didn't turn down the invites because he's gay, they called him gay because he turned down the invites...
- Teeer 8y agoI think you missed the obvious joke
- mistermann 8y agoIf you've been to Thailand, there's no reason for it to be said jokingly, at all.
- taneq 8y agoYeah, I didn't mean it disparagingly or jokingly. Some places in Thailand quite openly cater to all proclivities. (Once when I was backpacking there, some guy came out of a side alley and approached me saying "young girls, beautiful girls!" and when I said no thank you, immediately switched to "young boys, beautiful boys?")
- mc32 8y agoAFAIK, many foreigners [read: other Asians as well as a sprinkling of non-Asians] (as well nationals from outside a city but who do business in said city) who are married have either "second wives[1]" in these alternate city offices or they have their marriages die in said places. It has some intriguing aspects, such as the children of the "first wife" are often seen as more legitimate. Also often the wives tolerate each other. And more[2] in this abstract. [1] in most cases it's hetero males, ergo the wives part. I believe one of the (perh former) chiefs of Foxconn [from TW] had several "second wives". [2]journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1097184X11412171
- patrickg_zill 8y agoYes, the first family has more status and usually will be the ones that get the bulk of the inherited wealth. It seems to be sort of expected that once you reach a certain level in your business life, you will get a mistress. This is so prevalent in the Philippines that the family law concerning whether or not you can use the last name of your father is explicitly spelled out.
- bitcoinmoney 8y agoOff topic: are you filipino?
- paulie_a 8y agoI wouldn't want the last name of someone that is expected to and has a mistress regardless of their level in business... They dishonored that name.
- mc32 8y agoIt’s not that easy. On the one hand a name can open doors of opportunity in a place where such opportunities are fenced off, on the other hand you can have your pride but not have such opportunities. Given their status options, one can guess what choice most people would make.
- maehwasu 8y ago
- kelukelugames 8y agoIn an episode of Billions, they go to a strip club for some full contact lap dances. I met a Wall Street I-banker who went on and on about hooking up with strippers. I wonder how common this is still in the US.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- zergleader 8y agoPretty much. One of the most strange things I experience in America is the insistence that America is somehow the most sexist / racist country. Oh boy! When the current generation of social justice from America floods its banks and arrives in Asia there is going to be an ugly reckoning. I think the idea that many of China’s troubles (corruption / pollution / freedom reductions) are a byproduct of the extreme rapid move from poverty to wealth combined with an equally extreme arrival of wealth inequality is true. You simply can’t hit the gas pedal and accelerate 40 years into the future in one decade without creating the potential for major discontent. But socially speaking, the era of progressivism America has experienced has not yet leaked out but it will. American millenials think they are oppressed, they have no idea what the rest of the world finds normal. This article is a great example of how the rest of the world is currently socially caliberated compared to the USA. The truth is that America is a paradise of social justice.
- noobermin 8y agoIt's always easy to tell someone they have it good when we all live on a power law. Just tell them to look a notch down and see someone half their height, just as long as they don't look up at you and see your waist. The entire structure of the American economy and the attitudes it uses to keep its subjects in check are of this form. In many ways, the US is advanced but in many ways it also lags other places, namely in Europe. In other ways it's better. I think if you take an every day liberal or social justice advocate, you'll find that they may be surprised at the level of racism and sexism that pervades other countries, specifically in Asia. But, I don't think you'll find that attitude from activists, academics and others who try to be informed about these things. They know it is the structure of things as they stand and as you said, there is a strong chance that these issues will become important elsewhere as they too find they must deal with the intrinsic contradictions in their society.
- zavi 8y agoA premise that there's less racism in Europe than in the US is just wrong (I'm a European who've spent a lot of time in the US for work and school). US is the PC capital of the world (for better or worse). There's just not a whole lot of non-white folks in Europe even now.
- cm2012 8y agoI'm glad that East Asia is slowly, but surely, becoming less sexist over time. You can see it in Korean dramas, which are very popular across east asia and way less accepting than TV used to be of this kind of thing. The article also mentioned real pushback from the Chinese government, which is great.
- greggman 8y agois it all that different in the USA? It's certainly the stereotype we see in movies for wall street. Not having worked there I have no first hand experience. When I ask friends that have they tell me "oh the stories I could tell" but they don't actually tell.
- irrational 8y agoI don't know about other companies, but I work in global sales for an american Fortune 150 company and everyone knows that if there is even a hint of a rumor of something like the things being described here happening you will be fired faster than you can blink.
- bmarkovic 8y agoI'm pretty sure that, while they apparently party much harder on their private time, north-western Europeans appear to be much more "prude" in their work life than any other group in the world. I also believe it's actually a part of their cultural inclusivity. It's a very stressful pressure if you're expected to go to a strip club with your colleagues after work if you're female, gay or in a relationship where such behavior would be sanctioned by the other party. Americans and Asians apparently expect others to "fall in line" in all corporate policy matters, including this one. So as a result of globalization the corporate policy matters that one is expected to "fall in line" to have slowly become the least common denominator of all this cultures and that's the type of business chastity that is normal in today's HR rule books and everything outside is hastily sanctioned.
- ryandrake 8y agoSurely in the past, even at seemingly boring engineering companies. You used to hear about all kinds of stuff going on in the office. People getting blackout drunk at company Christmas parties, drugs in the restroom, co-workers banging each other in the conference rooms.. then all of a sudden, you didn’t hear about it anymore. Whoosh, it was gone! I entered the workplace as this stuff seemed to be dying down and just missed the party. Like jumping into the ocean just as the unstoppable crushing wave of political correctness slammed ashore, washing away the shenanigans and leaving only sterile, gray, cubicles, thicker “code of conduct” books, and HR helplines. Maybe it’s for the better. Things are obviously much more inclusive for professional women and non-drinkers/smokers, which is good. But at the same time I think we lost something.
- PakG1 8y agoA few female entrepreneurs, however, explicitly reject the values pushed by businessmen. “One of my husband’s business friends got married just two years ago,” explained Li, in her early 40s, who co-owns a steel business with her husband, “We went to his wedding. But when we hosted an event last year, he came with a young girl who was obviously his mistress. I told my husband that if he cheats on his wife only after a year, he will cheat us. He said no way, he’s a good guy, we can trust him!” She looked a little smug. “Now this man owes us a lot of money that he won’t pay.” As women get more powerful in society, they'll stand up a bit more for themselves and their gender. I recall reading an article that I can't find about women working in South Korea. It's difficult for them to get promoted to senior positions because they're often not interested in bringing their customers or business partners to strip clubs and the like, as it makes for an uncomfortable work experience. But the same article quotes men who say they're more comfortable working with people with whom they share dark secrets and experiences. You can totally see that reason not flying over time if women become more powerful, similar to the woman surnamed Li. After some time, Li probably won't only speak up, she'll probably have more influence over decisions too.
- 2muchcoffeeman 8y agoI would not trust any person who cheated on their spouse either. Nor would I want to hang out with colleagues at a strip club if we were not friends outside of work. I don’t think this is some gender thing. Maybe be men are more likely to be coerced into doing these things. But I think they’re having fun.
- tarsinge 8y agoCompletely agree on this. Cheating on someone (be it a spouse or a business partner) is the definition of being untrustworthy. To be clear, obviously I don’t mind how and with who people are spending their nights, as long as they are not deceiving someone. It’s a shame that open relationships are not more accepted, but that’s not an excuse because nobody forced a cheating person to take an engagement in the first time.
- Consultant32452 8y ago
- simplecomplex 8y agoSounds fun! America is so boring and uptight.
- Animats 8y agoSan Francisco has the Gold Club for that.[1] [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/ryanmac/2015/07/14/gold-club-tech-lunch-spot-strip-club-yelp-san-francicso/#7f9434b5314c https://www.forbes.com/sites/ryanmac/2015/07/14/gold-club-te...
- erikb 8y agoForbes literally spent 5 minutes now to save my cookie settings. Nice.
- _pmf_ 8y agoSo unlike the clean and rational business decision making process in the gloriously enlightened West.
- danielku98 8y agoWhy is hacker news still posting articles from 2015. It is less of a case than it was 3 years ago.
- baybal2 8y agoThis is the shit that the "Laoban" culture is, a culture of middle aged looser type officials - it is everywhere where the touch of communist "culture" reached. This shit started with party members, and state companies from North East, then it spread like a virus to everywhere where people from the region were hired in any much high position. I'm not surprised that Westerners fail to perceive the essence of the it — this is an act of collective humiliation of junior employees who are made passive spectators of those disgusting orgies. It is a sublime message to his underlings — be my loyal shoeshiner, and maybe one day I will elevate you to a position where you can do this too. Those middle age nobodies rarely if ever attend brothels just by themselves, the whole point for them doing so is to drag their subordinates into it, making them a part of the "humiliation pyramid." There is no "oiling of the deal" element here.
- Taniwha 8y agoI do occasional business in China and Taiwan, the sex thing has never come up ... But threating, drinking and general socialising around business in Chinese, and more generally in Asian culture is something that I think is really healthy ... In the west we negotiate a deal, maybe voices get raised a bit, people argue, we do a deal, people go away a bit pissed ... In China all that arguing still happens but after we go out and socialise, we drink and eat together, and we become friends so we can work together on this thing we've agreed to do together As I said I think the Chinese way, at least the way I've experienced, is more healthy
- sumedh 8y ago> the sex thing has never come up probably because the other person knew/sensed that you are not interested?
- Taniwha 8y agoOr possibly because our hot shot Mandarin speaking negotiator isn't a guy ... Or in another case, when I do business there on my own because my excellent usual Chinese buyer/facilitator is also not a guy But also I suspect that while that sort of may be common it's not universal
- mhroth 8y agoI'm surprised at that amount of surprise in this thread. I have a good friend who is (was) in sales. He had to get out once he realised that he'd turned into a full-blown alcoholic and that he'd wouldn't be able to do business if he at all tried to slow down. Heavily dependent on the industry though.
- qaq 8y agoThis is fairly common for Wall Street too, so lets not pretend it's not happening here.
- DanielBMarkham 8y agoThis article reminded me of a primatologist reporting on a social behavior of a group of bonobos. I speculate that sex as social norming behavior is something many in the west are far-removed from. The heavy drinking is still present -- alcohol seems to lubricate anything -- but the pressure for sexual activities isn't anywhere near as strong here as it is in other places. We commonly think of sex as romantic, even a quick fun-filled romp. We don't think of it very often as being a group social sorting event. Fascinating. Thanks for the link!
- miga 8y agoSimilar report on US or North America deal making would probably involve much more drugs, and shooting ranges. It seems that while no less false, Asia is much safer place.
- bantersaurus 8y agodudes are creepy
- deepGem 8y ago“Once two men share a woman, they’re brothers.” Is this for real ? WTF
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- hungerstrike 8y agoOh no! Not Booze and Sex!! The humanity! People who complain about "bro culture" won't be happy until everybody (and I mean everybody) is exactly like them...bland.
- motohagiography 8y agoThe article really isn't about the vice. The more interesting part of this conversation is, how do you know you can trust someone? The value of most agreements is not in their letter, but their spirit, and you need to know if you are dealing with someone who will honor the spirit of an agreement. Probably the most meaningful aspect of this article, "But the purpose of these visits isn’t a good time. It’s to cement business and personal ties, binding men together through the power of taboo and mutual self-exposure, or at least the pretense of it. It lets them judge that the others involved in a potential deal are men of the same stripe." And one paragraph down, " As one saying that went rapidly around the Chinese Internet in 2011 put it, “It’s better to do one bad thing with your boss than a hundred good things for your boss. Over time, this can extend to an actual exchange of what criminologist Diego Gambetta in his pioneering Codes of the Underworld calls “hostage-information,” mutual knowledge of each party’s sins that acts as a powerful guarantee neither will break their agreements." And, "But vice serves as a kind of screen, weeding out the rare few who might have moral qualms about future dealings. It tells both sides that they’re playing by the same rules." It's not just vice. There is an aspect of these transgression trust rituals in pretty much every organization I have seen. What I read in this article is that vice is collateral in a relationship, where if there is no collateral, there is no basis on which to trust someone.
- cpncrunch 8y agoBut as the article points out, it's not actually a good way of building trust: "I told my husband that if he cheats on his wife only after a year, he will cheat us. He said no way, he’s a good guy, we can trust him!” She looked a little smug. “Now this man owes us a lot of money that he won’t pay.”" It's completely true...if you get the impression that someone has dubious morals, they will just as easily cheat you. I never trust anyone in business who even hints at breaking the law or cheating on anything.
- motohagiography 8y agoArguably that particular situation was more a symptom of bringing a paramour to where spouses would be present, demonstrating disrespect for his clients relationships (and in turn his clients). That was the tell. People generally don't cheat their in-groups, and these vice collateral rituals establish in-group status. Showing disrespect to the values of a group is a good indicator your perceived cost of defection is low. Signalling you don't value your collateral is a good way to put off counterparties. The guy showing up with a mistress showed not that he was necessarily immoral, but rather, that he didn't value the esteem of his clients or vice collateral he had established.
- TangoTrotFox 8y agoI think this article skirts about one issue without ever really stating it, and it sums everything so much more logically and cleanly. In 'regular life' people tend to be fake. They say what think they're supposed to say and act how they think they're supposed to act. Alcohol, strippers come prostitutes, and other such fun do a good job of removing the social inhibitions in people. It's not about some sort of secret mutual blackmail or whatever (which is also not to say that does not happen) - it's just tearing down the social barriers that people put up. And this most certainly is in no way whatsoever unique to China. Most people you meet you think you know, you will never really know. A bit of vice changes this for reasons that I do not think can be so easily explained as the article attempts to do. The point is that it does.